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Borski
12-06-2008, 12:42 AM
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democratic leaders and the White House reached a deal to provide billions of dollars in relief to the ailing U.S. auto industry, a senior congressional aide told Reuters on Friday.

The package, which Democratic leaders hope to win passage of next week and send to President George W. Bush, totals between $15 billion and $17 billion, the aide said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The amount is far less than the $34 billion requested this week by General Motors, Ford Motor, and Chrysler, but Democratic leaders believe the money will keep them going until Barack Obama replaces Bush as president on January 20 and a new effort can be made for a rescue plan.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSWEN145820081206

SteelCityMan786
12-06-2008, 12:57 AM
They have something to hold them over at least.

BrandonCarr39
12-06-2008, 01:17 AM
I read awhile back that the bailout money the banks got...they gave 1/2 of that to their shareholders and corporate exec bonuses.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Big 3 did the same with the $15b they're getting. NO accountability across the board by the Feds.

tony hipchest
12-06-2008, 01:27 AM
so its costing about 300 million americans about $50 apiece to bail then out.

just remember this, next time youre out buying a car.

rule #1- NEVER pay sticker price.
rule #1a- NEVER buy a car on your 1st trip to the dealer.
rule #2- be skeptical if you cant talk the dealer down to 20-25% below sticker price.
rule #3- no dealer wants to lose youre sale to the dealer down the street.
rule #4- never tell a dealer you NEED a new car. you kinda want a new one but are just fine if you dont get one.
rule #5- if we arent bailing out the asian auto makers, and the american auto makers owe each and every one of us 50 bucks (only a fraction of 300 mil are buying cars, and only a fraction of that are buying american) they owe us, not vice versa.

there you go. we all have leverage for the next automobiles we buy made by one of these companies.

Borski
12-06-2008, 02:11 AM
I'm not in favor of the bailout. Let them go bankrupt, like the airlines did. that way they can restructure. I think the bailout will just have them comeback for more later.

Texasteel
12-06-2008, 07:45 AM
I read awhile back that the bailout money the banks got...they gave 1/2 of that to their shareholders and corporate exec bonuses.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Big 3 did the same with the $15b they're getting. NO accountability across the board by the Feds.


Don't forget all the " hey look at all this free money " parties.

stillers4me
12-06-2008, 08:15 AM
Everyone with a "I only buy American" bumper stickers have been bailing these companies out for years. My husband sold Hyundai's for onel year. They provided this American household with a paycheck. They were also the best value for our dollar. (we own 2 of them, my sister has one and for the first time ever......my mom and stepdad bought one instead of an overpriced, ugly Chrysler). We looked at American made cars last time around and and they were too expensive, too ugly or drove like crap and were cheaply constructed.

I hate the fact that I choose not to buy American, yet here I am, bailing them out anyway.

GBMelBlount
12-06-2008, 08:39 AM
Great thread.

Tnewman - I agree on the accountability. How can a government who is the worst operated business in this country, properly run or regulate another?

Borski, I agree. I mean seriously, what individual in their right mind would make a toxic investment like this? Only the government would. Let the free markets sort this out.

And of course, Stillers4me, I am starting to agree with you. I have never owned a foreign car in my life but am definitely considering it, unfortunately.

SteelCurtain7
12-06-2008, 04:11 PM
I'm not in favor of the bailout. Let them go bankrupt, like the airlines did. that way they can restructure. I think the bailout will just have them comeback for more later.

Agreed. This is a slippery slope that our government has embarked upon. Next up, the governors of several states are billions of dollars in the red, and they have their beggars' cups ready. :rolleyes: What's next? The entertainment industry? Fast food? The health care industry? This laundry list of our move toward Socialism has no end in sight. :banging:

revefsreleets
12-06-2008, 04:27 PM
Here's my reaction:

I am waiting another year to buy.

I'm buying "near-new"

I'm buying a Honda.

Eff these idiots. They KNEW they were running their companies into the ground and they knew a day of reckoning was coming. I hold them more accountable than the banks and Mortgage dudes because Detroit HAD a model to work with and they ignored it and whistled past the graveyard.

The Unions are just as culpable. The big 3 need to be unionized like a cat needs pajamas...

TackleMeBen
12-06-2008, 04:49 PM
i agree with they should go under. its managements fault that they didnt keep up with auto trend when the foreign cars came over. i have owned two foreign cars and loved them. i drove my honda until it blew up.

i think i am in the minority,since i live in detroit and feel that way.

revefsreleets
12-06-2008, 04:53 PM
It's not like the autoworkers from GM and Chrysler (I think Ford can survive) will be SOL. Toyota, Honda, Nissan et al will need to build a lot more cars to bridge the gap, and I'm sure they'd be happy to take over the existing plants and straighten shit out there.

BozMan
12-06-2008, 11:00 PM
Who will bail out the government?

Or, more importantly, who will bail out the taxpayers?

Preacher
12-06-2008, 11:12 PM
Here is what scares me....

but Democratic leaders believe the money will keep them going until Barack Obama replaces Bush as president on January 20 and a new effort can be made for a rescue plan.

Here I thought Big Corporations were evil?

Tell me, is this not being driven because VOTING UNION WORKERS are being affected?

This IS NOT THE FIRST TIME the car companies have been in trouble. How long will we keep a failing business afloat?

BozMan
12-07-2008, 12:40 AM
Rescuing the Rust Belt (http://townhall.com/Columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/03/04/rescuing_the_rust_belt)

...
When the American automobile industry was the world's leader in its field, many people seemed to think that labor unions could transfer a bigger chunk of that prosperity to its members without causing economic repercussions.

Toyota, Honda, and others who took away more and more of the Big Three automakers' market share, leading to huge job losses in Detroit, proved once again the old trite saying that there is no free lunch.

Like the United Automobile Workers union in its heyday, unions in the steel industry and other industries piled on costs, not only in wage rates having little relationship to supply and demand, but in all sorts of red tape work rules that added costs.

State and local governments in what later became the rust belt also thought that they too could treat the industries under their jurisdiction as prey rather than assets, and siphon off more of the wealth created by those industries into state and local treasuries with ever higher taxes -- again, without considering repercussions.

In the short run, you can get away with all sorts of things. But, in the long run, the chickens come home to roost. The rust belt is where those rising costs have come home to roost.

While American auto makers are laying off workers by the thousands, Japanese auto makers like Toyota and Honda are hiring thousands of American workers. But they are not hiring them in the rust belts.

They are avoiding the rust belts, just as domestic businesses are avoiding the high costs that have been piled on over the years by both unions and governments in the rust belt regions.

In short, the rust belts have been killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. That is a viable political strategy, so long as the goose doesn't die before the next election and politicians can avoid leaving their fingerprints on the weapon.

But the people who lose their jobs, and who live in communities that decline, need to look beyond the political rhetoric to the grim reality that there is no free lunch.

Many workers in the new plants being built by Toyota and others apparently already understand that. They have repeatedly voted against being represented by labor unions. They want to keep their jobs. ...

hindes204
12-07-2008, 11:13 AM
Great article Boz, i whole-heartedly agree. The UAW is to blame for alot of this mess...the ridiculous salaries, the ridiculous severence pay packages...hopefully this will open the eyes of alot of americans and let everybody know that unions hurt more in the long run than they help

Hammer67
12-07-2008, 11:54 AM
Here's my reaction:

I am waiting another year to buy.

I'm buying "near-new"

I'm buying a Honda.

Eff these idiots. They KNEW they were running their companies into the ground and they knew a day of reckoning was coming. I hold them more accountable than the banks and Mortgage dudes because Detroit HAD a model to work with and they ignored it and whistled past the graveyard.

The Unions are just as culpable. The big 3 need to be unionized like a cat needs pajamas...

You are quite right.

You should see the videos they show employees at Ford from Mark Fields, the President of North America operations...it's almost a RA RA session :cheer:

Meanwhile, they ignored the market and let quality slip.

Why, exactly, doesn't Toyota, Honda or Volkswagon need bailouts? Could it be that they have an efficient and non union workforce? Realistic benefits? Leaner organizations with better R&D?

How about all of the above.

Why should I bail out a poorly managed industry with an overpaid and greedy workforce? When it is only a finger in the damn?


Regards,

Former Ford employee and Detroit resident.

Preacher
12-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Here's my reaction:

I am waiting another year to buy.

I'm buying "near-new"

I'm buying a Honda.

Eff these idiots. They KNEW they were running their companies into the ground and they knew a day of reckoning was coming. I hold them more accountable than the banks and Mortgage dudes because Detroit HAD a model to work with and they ignored it and whistled past the graveyard.

The Unions are just as culpable. The big 3 need to be unionized like a cat needs pajamas...



In 1985, my mother bought our first foreign car. It was a Nissan Stanza. That car ran until I bought it from her and took it too seminary. The transmission went out in it in 1998. I sold it off to a friend of mine who swapped out the tranny, and that car ran for another few years. That tranny, 150,000 miles of driving, was the first thing that went wrong on the car.

We have bought, between my mother and now my wife and I, 6 Nissans. Only one of them had problems, and that was a used Nissan that had some computer issues (when computers in cars were brand new).

Now compare that to the American junk. 1977, Parents bought a van, Chevy. The engine through a rod after 70,000 miles. 1981. Mother (Father passed away by then) bought a chevette. six months later, car completely died going around a corner. Had it towed and found out, the ENTIRE electrical system was dead and had to be replaced (found out also that the engine was replaced after only 7.. thats right, SEVEN miles because it blew). Bought a second car in 1987. Ford Escort. THAT car blew a headgasket after 80,000 miles.

Now? My mother had a Nissan, 1997, that has about 100,000 miles on it. NEVER had a problem.

I have an old 1995 Nissan 200 sx. Except for maintainence (The breaks rusted out because of Kentucky weather), we have NEVER had a problem with it, and it has over 100,000 miles on it.

We also have a brand new Nissan. Love it.


So tell me 2 things.

1. Why would I EVER by another American car?

2. Why do I HAVE TO PAY for American car companies incompetence... in essence, pay a PENALTY for them not building a car I want to buy?

revefsreleets
12-07-2008, 06:48 PM
I think the new American cars ARE as good as the Japanese cars. But, guess what? It's too late. I WANT to penalize the American car companies for their ineptitude and failure to innovate and adapt. I can only do that one way, and that's by buying foreign.

The bottom line is that if i ran my household the way they ran their company, i'd be broke, homeless, starving, and completely deserving of that condition...

Hines0wnz
12-07-2008, 09:00 PM
Kiss your tax break away that Obama promised you since his fellow Dems are spending it for us.

xfl2001fan
12-08-2008, 08:21 AM
Kiss your tax break away that Obama promised you since his fellow Dems are spending it for us.

Without looking, I'd be willing to bet dollars vs doughnuts that there is more than a small handful of republicans who voted yes to get this passed.

GBMelBlount
12-08-2008, 08:42 AM
The bottom line is that if i ran my household the way they ran their company, i'd be broke, homeless, starving, and completely deserving of that condition...

I agree Revs. Natural selection - survival of the fittest. Period. That coupled with free markets is how things should be. Just because I constantly bash the government does not mean I am a defender of poorly run corporations, bad execs or corporate bailouts due to bad decisions. I just harp on the government because 9 out ten people parrot the main stream media and blame our problems on capitalism and greed when our bloated government and scandalous taxes are by far the largest problem we have to deal with in this country.

GBMelBlount
12-08-2008, 08:44 AM
Without looking, I'd be willing to bet dollars vs doughnuts that there is more than a small handful of republicans who voted yes to get this passed.

I agree, promise to give 9 out of 10 people someone elses fish for a day and they'll vote for you.

rbryan
12-08-2008, 09:33 AM
I'm just relieved that the carmakers can still afford to run 15-20 commercials an hour during the games every weekend thanks to the bailout.

I just wouldn't be able to make an informed decision if it wasn't for the mind numbing, repetitive subliminal messages from Ford.

I run a small business, but I can't afford TV commercials......think I can get a bailout too????

revefsreleets
12-08-2008, 10:44 AM
To be fair, they are contractually obligated to run those commercials. If a company like Ford starts reneging on all it's deals that are in place, things will get REAL ugly real fast.

rbryan
12-08-2008, 11:09 AM
Seems like the bailout of the auto industry is in reality an indirect bailout of the networks that are paying billions for the right to broadcast the major sports. Which in turn is paying for the ridiculous salaries that are handed out like candy to MLB, NFL, NBA players.

Something is very wrong when the economy is as bad as it is yet the Yankees can afford to pay out multi million dollar contracts to mediocre baseball players. In the long run, its the taxpayer footing the bill. Where does this all stop??

drizze99
12-08-2008, 11:33 AM
Some of you are just plain old idiots. Its so easy to sit behind a computer and say "let them go bankrupt". Do you have any idea what that statement means to the thousands of Americans employed by Chrysler, Ford and GM? Do you know how many jobs would be lost if the Big 3 becomes the Big 0?

EVERY car manufacturer out there builds junk at one point or another. Its not just "American cars. Society is so quick to judge and fall into stereo-types because they are not educated. Some of you need to look at FACTS instead of "going with the flow" or saying what others say.

Right now, here is the list of the top LEMON LAW complaints on cars"

Mazda MPV 11,090
Kia Sportage 7,204
Ford Excursion 6,682
Ford Windstar 4,550
Mercury Cougar 4,342
Honda Passport 3,691
Honda S2000 3,510
Mitsubishi Eclipse 3,421
Isuzu Rodeo 3,393
Ford Explorer 3,039
Land Rover Range Rover 3,034
Audi A6 2,982
Hyundai Tiburon 2,954
Honda Odyssey 2,825
Lincoln LS 2,753
Jeep Grand Cherokee 2,744
Volkswagen Passat 2,676
Buick LeSabre 2,555
Suzuki Grand Vitara 2,552
Chevrolet Blazer 2,541

I see just as many "foriegn" automakers on that list as I do "american" automakers.

The fact is, I have been part of auto factory closing and I am going to be a part of another one on the 19th od Dec.

My father worked for Volkswagen of America when the plant was located in New Stanton, PA. The gov't gave them a tax break for the first 10 years they were in the country. Well as soon as the tax break went away, so did the plant. They closed it and moved to Mexico. Thousands of good hard working people in western PA lost their jobs. It was ugly to the point were some people committed suicide.

Now I live in DE because my father got a job with Chrysler in Newark, DE. One Dec 19th, that plant will closing its doors and shutting down. Again, thousands of workers are going to loose their jobs. Now my father is 60 and WTF is he going to do now? Nobody is going to hire a 60 yr old and definitely not at the money he was making....

So before you make an idiotic statement like "Let them loose their ass", think of the thousands of people that are effected by that statement.

I do agree that they (auto industry) need re-structured and hopefully this loan comes with some provisions on making changes for the way the companies are run.

revefsreleets
12-08-2008, 11:52 AM
You're confusing penalizing management with penalizing workers. Nobody wants to see thousands of workers out of a job, but mismanagement and Unions have down a lot of damage, and there was bound to be a day of reckoning.

I've been laid off before, so I know what that's like. But I also DID NOT join the Union. I refused on principle. There was no need for me to join, so I didn't. That had nothing to do with my lay-off either.

If the Big 3 close shop (and they won't), there will be a giant hole to fill. I'm sure that the foreign carmakers will be desperate to hire people to fill that gap. People aren't going to stop buying cars if the Big 3 disappear, they will just buy different cars, and those cars will still need to be built, and built here.

TackleMeBen
12-08-2008, 12:18 PM
Some of you are just plain old idiots. Its so easy to sit behind a computer and say "let them go bankrupt". Do you have any idea what that statement means to the thousands of Americans employed by Chrysler, Ford and GM? Do you know how many jobs would be lost if the Big 3 becomes the Big 0?

no some of us arent idiots. i live in detroit, and have several friends that worked for ford and gm... one quit b/c they didnt have any work and took a job driving a semi over the road...he doesnt get to see his family and while the big execs were living in their mansion, he lost his home.

another friend took the buyout b/c he was too dumb to realize that going from 25.00/hr to 18.00 was better than not having a job at all.. and now he is broke and they are trying to live on what his wife makes.

no its not fair that the hard workers get punished for what the executives do, but life isnt fair and they have to deal with it just like everyone else.

as a matter of fact, some in the detroit area are calling for waggoner to step down as CEO of GM.

rbryan
12-08-2008, 12:33 PM
I'm not saying let them go bankrupt. I'm saying the american taxpayer shouldn't have to foot the bill to run 50-60 car commercials from 1-4 every Sunday, let alone the staggering number for the rest of the week.

Do you have some "idiotic" reason to support that practice???

hindes204
12-08-2008, 02:29 PM
I understand that if these companies were to go under, thousands upon thousands will lose thier jobs, but unfortunately, thats how america works. If a company is managed as poorly as the big 3, then eventually it goes under (see airlines)....and then they are restructured by people who choose not to make the same mistakes. Terrible management and the UAW are to blame for this mess, and i feel it is wrong to penalize the american taxpayer for this mess...survival of the fittest, free market and capitolism...these are the things that make America America....not super high taxes and ridiculous bailouts

Steeldude
12-09-2008, 01:48 AM
pathetic.

the oil companies should be bailing out the automakers, not the tax payers.

i better receive a free car or truck. if not, then i will be buying japanese or german.

Preacher
12-09-2008, 02:21 AM
Excuse me.

Yes, this sounds harsh. But I AM saying let them go bankrupt.

If the employees won't demand their unions renegotiate for a bit less pay so the factory can stay open, and demand the execs kick in their pay as well, then they both get what they deserve.

There is absolutely NO WAY that the american public should have to pay for bad management AND bad blue-collar work.

I am buying Japanese until the people AROUND ME that have American cars have the longevity with them that we have had with Japanese cars. So far that hasn't happened. So it will be at least another 15 years before I buy an American car.

Think that is unpatriotic? Think again. I won't be 30,000 in debt because of upside car loans since my cars keep breaking down and I have to buy new ones everytime the warranty runs out. Thus, I won't be sticking the banks with debt that they can't collect... Because I am making a wise choice, and buying Japanese.

Well, unless I can get my hands on a New Ford Mustang GT 500. But that is an entirely different story!

Preacher
12-09-2008, 02:23 AM
pathetic.

the oil companies should be bailing out the automakers, not the tax payers.

i better receive a free car or truck. if not, then i will be buying japanese or german.

Why?

They are the antithesis of the problem. They have been just as burdened with over-regulation, investigations into price-fixing every other year when the price goes up, and shackled in where they can and cannot drill, refine, etc. etc. Yet, they are doing quite well. Why punish them for doing what the car companies couldn't do, adapt-adjust, and make money.

Blonde Bomber
12-09-2008, 08:20 AM
I just thought I would chime in on some cars that I have owned and their reliability.

I have, over the years, owned quite a few different makes of cars. Since the list would be about 20 cars or so, I will just mention a few and the reliability experience I had with them. A great line from one of the Transporter movies is " If you take care of you car, it will take care of you". I have always kept up on the maintenance of my vehicles as I drive about 40-45 thousand miles a year.

1987 Nissan Pulsar - the transmission went at about 145,000. This car ate brakes and exhaust systems. I did really like this car though, and one of my son's friends is still driving it.

1991 Isuzu Trooper - again transmission went about 150,000 miles. This truck was a beast in the snow, and ran like a champ ( it came stock with a 2.8 chevy motor ). The frame started to rust out pretty bad, and I had to move on after 252,000 miles.

1994 Dodge Ram 2500 - This truck is the poster boy for never, and I repeat NEVER buy a first year body style change. Dodge didn't get the brake balance right on this truck, therefore it needed front brakes every 10-15 thousand miles. The whole front end seemed makeshift ( I didn't realize this until I was in too deep ) but I replaced hubs at $350 a pop more than once, the ball joints were either too small or at an odd angle and needed replaced a few times over 51/2 years that I owned it. When I got rid of it at 130,000 miles, and I almost had to give it a way, the entire electrical system was fried.

1995 Volvo 960 wagon - My biggest two problems with this Swedish tank is that 1. it goes through tires like it is a tank, and 2. It is hard to find somewhere that actually has parts stocked for this car, and they are usually very pricey. I had to replace the driveshaft carrier bearing, and had to order it from California. Oh yeah one more thing about this car. The back shocks are Nivomats, ha you want to talk about expensive. They are over $300 each.

2001 Ford Focus ZX3 - My wife wanted this car, and while it serves its purpose of being an economical car, it has a few designs that I am not happy about. The thermostat housing is mostly plastic, and bolts to the head. The valve cover gasket is known to leak, and not only have I had this problem, but it leaks right down onto the thermostat housing, getting behind the housing, and ruining the thermostat O-ring, which leads to the thermostat leaking anti freeze. The other major thing, and I know this is not just Ford, but I HATE the lumbar seats. These, to at least me, are the most uncomfortable seats to ever be put in a car. After driving this car for any extended period, I just want to get out and scream, and vow to never drive it again.

So, I agree that all makes have issues, I think that it just depends on your personal preference of where your money will be spent.

Do I like bailing out the automakers? No. Do I think that if the went bankrupt and restructured, do the retired workers deserve their pension? Yeah, ( and I think I read that the gov't would probably control that ) If I retired and had been promised x amount of dollars, then hell yeah I would want them.

Anyway good luck to everyone with their vehicles.

so its costing about 300 million americans about $50 apiece to bail then out.

just remember this, next time youre out buying a car.

rule #1- NEVER pay sticker price.
rule #1a- NEVER buy a car on your 1st trip to the dealer.
rule #2- be skeptical if you cant talk the dealer down to 20-25% below sticker price.
rule #3- no dealer wants to lose youre sale to the dealer down the street.
rule #4- never tell a dealer you NEED a new car. you kinda want a new one but are just fine if you dont get one.
rule #5- if we arent bailing out the asian auto makers, and the american auto makers owe each and every one of us 50 bucks (only a fraction of 300 mil are buying cars, and only a fraction of that are buying american) they owe us, not vice versa.

there you go. we all have leverage for the next automobiles we buy made by one of these companies.


Good post Tony, here are a few things I would like to add to your rules.

#2 - If you can't talk the dealer down 20-25%, then you should not be the one doing the negotiating. The Focus I mentioned above I bought used at a dealer with 51,000 miles. They were asking $8000. I laughed at the salesman when he told me the price. I told him I would give him $3500. He said there was no way. After he called me the next day wondering if I was still interested I said submit the $3500. He could not believe that I ended up getting it for $4200.

#4 - Never tell them you have a trade-in or money down until you get your best price first. This is hard to do, but you have to be focused as salesmen will be drilling you for this information from the first time you talk to them. I have went with different methods, but I personally like to either piss the salesman off right away (because if you are lucky, you can talk to the finance manager instead), or I will ask them if it really matters right now.

#6 - When the price is negotiated, but before you finalize it, make sure you ask for a final inspection,especially if you are buying used. You can get a lot of things done for free at this point. Always get new oem floormats, and an oil change. I have gotten 4 new tires, new brakes, and new rear hatch shocks to name a few things. If they have a problem with you asking for these things, just tell them that your check is good down the street too.

rbryan
12-09-2008, 09:42 AM
pathetic.

the oil companies should be bailing out the automakers, not the tax payers.

i better receive a free car or truck. if not, then i will be buying japanese or german.

Thats basically happening right now....Its no coincidence that gas prices are half of what they were 2-3 months ago. When year end was in sight and the big 3 still had 80% of thier gas guzzling SUV's/ Trucks on the lot the price of gas came down.

Hammer67
12-09-2008, 10:16 AM
I'm not an idiot and I hope these companies go bankrupt and completely restructure. Do I like to see workers lose their jobs because of poor management? No. But they hold some of the blame. I worked at Ford and I saw it.

The plant workers should have seen this coming. The UAW needed to be more realistic and understand that pensions, Health benefits for life, etc. just weren't feasible in the new world economy.

Ford's quality is actually similar to Toyota, Honda, etc. in terms of defects. The problem isn't quality, it's perception and design. And THAT is the management problem.

rbryan
12-09-2008, 10:27 AM
The days of being surprised when you lose your $20 hr job at the factory are long gone. Too much dead weight on the books at the big 3 and it starts from the top all the way down to the guy pushing a broom. If you're working that kind of a job, you better have a good backup plan........Most of us have been there....done that.

TackleMeBen
12-09-2008, 10:31 AM
I'm not an idiot and I hope these companies go bankrupt and completely restructure. Do I like to see workers lose their jobs because of poor management? No. But they hold some of the blame. I worked at Ford and I saw it.

The plant workers should have seen this coming. The UAW needed to be more realistic and understand that pensions, Health benefits for life, etc. just weren't feasible in the new world economy.

Ford's quality is actually similar to Toyota, Honda, etc. in terms of defects. The problem isn't quality, it's perception and design. And THAT is the management problem.
you are absolutely right. both upper management and the UAW should have seen this coming. and do i feel sorry for the workers, sort of, but like i stated before its not going to kill you to take a paycut. you can either do that or not have a job at all... which one is better???

beSteelmyheart
12-09-2008, 06:46 PM
I'm not saying let them go bankrupt. I'm saying the american taxpayer shouldn't have to foot the bill to run 50-60 car commercials from 1-4 every Sunday, let alone the staggering number for the rest of the week.

Do you have some "idiotic" reason to support that practice???

This is also something that should be considered...The millions spent on constant advertising! (even though the foreign car companies are guilty as well)
Any reduction would greatly improve my sanity, since I don't plan on buying a new car anytime soon!:chuckle: