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NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 05:13 PM
Thirteen games into the season boys and girls and it's time to tell it the way it is; This offense is not starting to gel, mesh, come together or get better in any way what so ever. And after 13 games, it is clear it won't do so at any point in this season. Roethlisberger's shoulder is not THAT hurt, Parker is not THAT injured, Washington does not drop THAT many passes and the o-line is not THAT miserable. This offense is just plain and simply awful. There is no consistency or fluidity, no rhyme or reason to what play is called at what point in time. The players, or at least the core of offensive players, may not be what top offense's are made of, but there is no way they are this miserable either. One or possibly more members of the coaching staff have to be responsible for what I call this offense which I call "The Nightmare" cause it just keeps getting worse and worse.

7 F#$%ing degrees outside and we have thrown the ball 18 times and rushed it only 11 times. 4 turnovers created by our defense and special teams, all 4 in the opponents territory and we walk away with 3 points? Reed is our 2008 offensive MVP as it stands right now and the other offensive players would be hard pressed to give him a run for his money with only 3 games to go.

We all need to start asking ourselves how far this defense can take us into the playoffs. The way they are playing right now? To the Superbowl at the very least.

Jaquila
12-07-2008, 05:27 PM
:tt03:

Jaquila
12-07-2008, 05:31 PM
I AM SICK AND TIRED of watching this Defense working so hard and all the offense do is nothing!!!
they need to get their shit together. because they got the talent and they have showned it but right now, they are incompetent and losing important games for us.

Dont flame me cause i love our offensive players and that is why im getting sick and tired of watching them not doing what they can do!!

just needed to get it of my chest hehe

Hope we win bounce back in this game

GridironWarrior
12-07-2008, 05:33 PM
I agree. This O is complete garbage.

Edman
12-07-2008, 05:35 PM
Most anemic Steelers offense since the Kordell Era. Even last week and against the Bengals, they were mediocre at best. Thank God the Defense played lights out.

Even the most average offenses in the NFL take advantage of opportunities. This offense does not. The Steelers Defense has to be sick to their stomachs right now at the fact their their incredible season is going be wasted on this pathetic group. We may never see a Steelers Defense this awesome again for quite some time.

Winning the TO battle, holding the Dallas O in check, and we're LOSING??!!!!

Championship Defense, but a High School Offense. Disgusting.

Edman
12-07-2008, 05:40 PM
Ben, Arians, and everyone on the Steelers offensive staff is to blame.

I hope the Defense can come to the rescue, just as they always have all year. Because this offense won't do jack shit to save their lives.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 05:55 PM
Ben, Arians, and everyone on the Steelers offensive staff is to blame.

I hope the Defense can come to the rescue, just as they always have all year. Because this offense won't do jack shit to save their lives.

And Tomlin. A lot of people have left his name out but he is responsible as well I believe.

Willie Parker is 9 for 19 yards and on 1st and 5 on the Dallas 5 you try to rush it in with Parker on consecutive attempts when you haven't even been able to stuff it in from the goal line?

And then you go for it on 4th with another rush to try to prove what to who? That you don't have the 22nd ranked rushing offense in the league? Or to prove you have balls?

GAME OVER

Burghfan58
12-07-2008, 05:57 PM
Bring in Russell to get the first and goal. Take Russell out and two straight plays to Parker(who has done nothing all game). After a failed pass to Davis bring Russell back in on fourth when everyone knows he's getting the ball and he gets stuffed. Pathetic

HometownGal
12-07-2008, 05:57 PM
Amazing isn't it this same "pathetic" offense trampled the Pats* D last week. C'mon guys - it's not time to throw the towel in on this O just yet.

GridironWarrior
12-07-2008, 05:59 PM
How in the world can a team get 5 turnovers have a great D and have an O that can't take advantage of anything? Even the 2000 Ravens O could score when given turnovers with a short field.

Ricco Suavez
12-07-2008, 06:00 PM
There is plenty of blame to go around if anyone wants to play the blame game. We are the most physical defensive team in the league. But on offense our most physical player is a veteran wide-out. We are not tough up front. Look at Romo against the #1 defense and he has plenty of time. With a backup RB they have run more than any team has against us. We need help up front and/or a magician OC. I am not here to rant about any of our players, I know they are putting the effort out. I am just saying we our more of a finesse offense and not smash mouth like we our familiar with.

fansince'76
12-07-2008, 06:01 PM
who didn't see this thread coming?

It's actually a conglomeration of 4-5 threads about pretty much the same thing.

Ricco Suavez
12-07-2008, 06:03 PM
I have not give up yet. And I do not believe the Steelers have either. I wrote earlier in the week that this would be a tough game, win or lose we need to win out or at least 2 of 3 the rest of the way. We still have a chance today.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 06:04 PM
Amazing isn't it this same "pathetic" offense trampled the Pats* D last week. C'mon guys - it's not time to throw the towel in on this O just yet.

I don't know if you're a more true fan or just refuse to believe the truth or the fact that you're a more true fan makes you not want to face the reality of what this offense is. Either way I'm sure your intentions are good but relity remains reality and this offense is what it is and will remain so for the rest of this season, A Nightmare.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 06:06 PM
It's actually a conglomeration of 4-5 threads about pretty much the same thing.

Yeah but the discussion turns into a discussion about whether or not Roethlisberger is good or not because LambertisGod trolls up and starts biased, subjective and non-discussable Roethlisberger bashing so I started a fresh clean one. Sorry

Edman
12-07-2008, 06:08 PM
With this offense, an 6 or 7 point lead looks insurmountable. I really feel sorry for James Harrison and the Defense.

Whoo. 5 turnovers. And we got 3 measly points out of it. That is on the offense. Big time.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 06:09 PM
I have not give up yet. And I do not believe the Steelers have either. I wrote earlier in the week that this would be a tough game, win or lose we need to win out or at least 2 of 3 the rest of the way. We still have a chance today.

I have no doubt we're making the playoffs but even if the defense is capable of carrying us through the entire playoffs, which they are, you would've shot yourself in the head with frustration and disgust with this offense before you could watch us play in the Superbowl this year Rico.

revefsreleets
12-07-2008, 06:09 PM
This has been a well called game. The OL has played, for the most part, well (especially since we were all warned Ben was going to be sacked 100 times or whatever). He's held the ball trying to make plays. That's what he does. The Cowboys have played SOLID D. The offense has failed to execute the gameplan. That IS a concern, but the Cowboys D does have something to do with that.

I don't really even know what to do with a thread like this. It makes no sense. Are we supposed to pick another team to cheer for? Give up? Bitch more about things we (ie you) don't understand? What's the point? It is what it is. Our offense isn't executing. We are 9-3. Still in this game. Still in SB contention.

Edman
12-07-2008, 06:16 PM
Our offense isn't executing.

We are staring at 9-4 and potentially a first place tie with Baltimore heading into a critical divisional game in their house. Baltimore's D is lightyears ahead of Dallas.

Still in this game, but with this offense, I don't know if we can do it.

Still in SB contention, but see above.

RoethlisBURGHer
12-07-2008, 06:21 PM
And look at that, a TD pass to Miller.

While I agree we don't have the greatest offense in the NFL, they have gotten it done for a win more often than not this year...evidenced by our 9-3 (hopefully soon to be 10-3) record.

We aren't perfect on offense. But you know what, no team in the NFL is truly perfect on offense.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 06:23 PM
GAME OVER

Come on baby, please make me eat my words and prove LambertIsGod58 is an idiot.

And please don't let his troll on this thread for a t least a couple days so the offensive problems can be creatively discussed without him and others saying that Eli Manning is better than Roethlisberger and that sums up our offensive problems.

LambertIsGod58
12-07-2008, 06:25 PM
Come on baby, please make me eat my words and prove LambertIsGod58 is an idiot.

And please don't let his troll on this thread for a t least a couple days so the offensive problems can be creatively discussed without him and others saying that Eli Manning is better than Roethlisberger and that sums up our offensive problems.

regardless if we win this game....it's not Ben that won it. You can' see it, that's fine. But more and more people are exposing Ben as not what you think he is.

LambertIsGod58
12-07-2008, 06:26 PM
And Eli is better....maybe not today. But he IS better.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 06:26 PM
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I hope the Pittsburgh defense gang rapes the Pittsburgh offense in the locker rooms after the game.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 06:27 PM
regardless if we win this game....it's not Ben that won it. You can' see it, that's fine. But more and more people are exposing Ben as not what you think he is.

And Eli is better....maybe not today. But he IS better.

There goes another thread, Thanks

LambertIsGod58
12-07-2008, 06:31 PM
There goes another thread, Thanks

I was letting the whole Ben thing drop....but your boy Fan76 had to start in again.

RoethlisBURGHer
12-07-2008, 06:36 PM
I was letting the whole Ben thing drop....but your boy Fan76 had to start in again.

Then why can't you be the bigger man and just drop it?

cubanstogie
12-07-2008, 06:38 PM
I was letting the whole Ben thing drop....but your boy Fan76 had to start in again.
Ben didn't win this thing are you kidding. You are being obtuse dude. He was getting mauled all effing day. yes he held on to it too long a few times but had to, to make plays. In that weather with the pressure he had he played well. Look at Romo. His throws were horrible except one lucky one when he had all day. Just plain ignorant.

Preacher
12-07-2008, 06:39 PM
Um...

Quit kidding ourselves about what exactly?

That we have a defense that means we are ALWAYS in a game?

Or that we have an offense that just started driving down the field and put 10 points on the board when we needed it?


Yeah, that's what I thought.

Ricco Suavez
12-07-2008, 06:40 PM
That's the reason I do not give up on this team. Hey we move the ball we stall on short yardage situations. Ben did not win this game but he made plays that kept us in it. We had plenty of people make mistakes today(even on defense) but in the end great teams and great players find a way.:tt02:

fansince'76
12-07-2008, 06:41 PM
I have to kinda agree with the premise of the thread - if our season ends without a SB win, it won't be because of the D. That D is SB-caliber.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 06:42 PM
I was letting the whole Ben thing drop....but your boy Fan76 had to start in again.

Because he is right and you are absolutely wrong and look either like an idiot or so eager to prove your point about Roethlisberger that you'll say crazy things. Eli played his first game without Burress (officially where the opposing defense didn't have to prepare for him at all) and he shined like he had for the first 56 games of his career, like absolute worthless $hit.

Whatever you say about Roethlisberger is your opinion and you've argued them to me with some reason and I won't put you down for it, but in no way shape or form, not on Earth or any parallel dimension other than Bizzaro world is Eli Manning better than Roethlisberger.

fansince'76
12-07-2008, 06:42 PM
Because he is right and you are absolutely wrong and look either like an idiot or so eager to prove your point about Roethlisberger that you'll say crazy things. Eli played his first game without Burress (officially where the opposing defense didn't have to prepare for him at all) and he shined like he had for the first 56 games of his career, like absolute worthless $hit.

Whatever you say about Roethlisberger is your opinion and you've argued them to me with some reason and I won't put you down for it, but in no way shape or form, not on Earth or any parallel dimension other than Bizzaro world is Eli Manning better than Roethlisberger.

I'm not responding to him anymore, NYC. It's simply not worth it.

SteelCurtain7
12-07-2008, 06:43 PM
Right on, preacher man!!

Hapa
12-07-2008, 06:44 PM
Who cares, we don't need an offense!

LVSteelersfan
12-07-2008, 06:45 PM
If we don't go far in the playoffs this year, it is on Arians. That moron keeps doing an empty backfield set over and over and over on third down. Ben gets sacked so much out of that set it is pathetic. He tries to run the ball up the middle over and over and over on the goal line. Can't he see IT DOESN'T WORK. Anyone who wants to continue to side with Arians is just plain blind. That win today was a gift from an TOTALLY OVERRATED Tony Romo and an AWESOME defense.

revefsreleets
12-07-2008, 06:45 PM
Really, I think there are only a few people who are "kidding themselves", and, yes, "they" need to stop.

The originator of this stupid-assed thread is one. Let's start there...

T.Richardson
12-07-2008, 06:46 PM
Ben threw a TD in clutch time. That is what we need. If the offense shows up when we really need it. Thats good in my book.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 06:54 PM
Um...Quit kidding ourselves about what exactly?

I thought I was pretty specific;

238 totaly yards
13 first downs (my favorite)
3-16 on 3rd down (my second favorite)
64 plays total
3.7 yards per play
26 rushes for 70 yards at an average of 2.7 yards per carry (good ole' Willie shined once again with 25 yards on 12 carries)
4.4 yards per pass
5 sacks for 36 yards

4 turnovers by the defense and 1 by special teams for a total of 5, every single one in the opponents territory and we walk away with 13 points scored by the offense. It was actually worst than last week where the offense scored only 20 points from 5 turnovers, 4 of them in the opponents territory.

I'm as happy as you we won if not happier. I startled my girflriend with my screams as Townsend scored the TD.

As I said before, I hope our defense is currently gang-raping the offense in the locker rooms.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 06:56 PM
Who cares, we don't need an offense!

We really don't..lol..like seriously

revefsreleets
12-07-2008, 07:00 PM
I thought I was pretty specific;

238 totaly yards
13 first downs (my favorite)
3-16 on 3rd down (my second favorite)
64 plays total
3.7 yards per play
26 rushes for 70 yards at an average of 2.7 yards per carry (good ole' Willie shined once again with 25 yards on 12 carries)
4.4 yards per pass
5 sacks for 36 yards

4 turnovers by the defense and 1 by special teams for a total of 5, every single one in the opponents territory and we walk away with 13 points scored by the offense. It was actually worst than last week where the offense scored only 20 points from 5 turnovers, 4 of them in the opponents territory.

I'm as happy as you we won if not happier. I startled my girflriend with my screams as Townsend scored the TD.

As I said before, I hope our defense is currently gang-raping the offense in the locker rooms.

Way to ignore the Cowboys outstanding defensive effort.

You're a hater, dude. You hate and point out negative shit. You look at this year and see 3 losses. Most of us see 10 wins. The easy part of your shtick is that hating is easy because anything short of a SB ring gives you some ground to run on, but it wears on the rest of the real fans who post here, those of us who understand the nuances of the game.

I'm sure we're stuck with you. Fine. But just because you can structure a sentence and you have a strong opinion doesn't mean you cam walk all over people. You're wrong a lot, and I (and others) will happily make sure that we call your bullshit out when you spew it.

Makaveli
12-07-2008, 07:00 PM
What surprises me is the fact that our Offensive unit playing so poorly surprises anyone ? We have a backfield comprised of a wounded stud RB surrounded by journeymen backs, shaky and inconsistent play at the Tackles, only two wideouts,(washington is f#cking ridiculous) and a Qb whom does not read defenses well and has no concept of actually performing as a professional QB. ( as opposed to playing glorified sandlot football.)

The only "let down" for me personally is,.... that like so often in our history,.....a World Championship quality defense will see all of their hard work, effort and performance go to waste,........

T&B fan
12-07-2008, 07:02 PM
Bring in Russell to get the first and goal. Take Russell out and two straight plays to Parker(who has done nothing all game). After a failed pass to Davis bring Russell back in on fourth when everyone knows he's getting the ball and he gets stuffed. Pathetic

play ( er ) calling in goal line sucks this is like the 3rd time this has happend

ricksteelers55
12-07-2008, 07:09 PM
And Eli is better....maybe not today. But he IS better.

Hey maybe you need to learn that Roethlisberger is among the 5 best QB in the NFL history in terms of wins in their first 5 years.He already has 49 Wins in 5 seasons.So yeah Eli is better than Ben(sarcasm)

Eli is good but Id take Ben over Eli anytime.

Those who criticize Ben should learn their football.Ben is responsable for only 1/4 of the sacks not more than that.

Ben has made some bad choices this year,but he's not the main reason for the offense struggle.

We have NO RUNNING GAME.NO FREAKIN RUNNING GAME,we have to establish the run

like it or not,until we play steelers football and run the football like we use to,which means pounding our opponent's D with big runs inside tackles this O isnt going to work.It will by time,but not on a consistent basis.

The problem in Pittsburgh is execution true,but the guy who needs to change things when it doesnt work is Bruce Arians

But as someone pointed it out...thank god we have that D

Im still happy with that win like coach chin would say...so what if we win ugly

fansince'76
12-07-2008, 07:11 PM
Eli is good but Id take Ben over Eli anytime.


Hey, Romo is waaaaay better than Ben too, according to the QB expert. :rolleyes:

tomthebomb
12-07-2008, 07:12 PM
You are 100% right. It took the Steelers 7 years to admit to themselves that Kordel Stewart could not play QB in the NFL. The truth is that Ben cannot either.

fansince'76
12-07-2008, 07:13 PM
You are 100% right. It took the Steelers 7 years to admit to themselves that Kordel Stewart could not play QB in the NFL. The truth is that Ben cannot either.

Which "franchise QB" threw 3 picks today, including the backbreaking one that lost the game? Oh, yeah, that's right...

cowboykilla
12-07-2008, 07:15 PM
Are you people serious? We just won the game of the year. The most anticipated regular season game in years. And most importantly,we beat the cowgirls.:tt02::tt02: How can you be mad?? We have won ten games! We aren't perfect,but who is:noidea: I'm fckuing delirious.:banana: In a battle of NFL Superpowers we showed the world who's league this is.:helmet: And to the defense:nw: ''HOW BOUT THEM STEELERS''!!!!!!!:tt::tt::tt::tt::tt::tt::chicken:

Preacher
12-07-2008, 07:22 PM
There is plenty of blame to go around if anyone wants to play the blame game. We are the most physical defensive team in the league. But on offense our most physical player is a veteran wide-out. We are not tough up front. Look at Romo against the #1 defense and he has plenty of time. With a backup RB they have run more than any team has against us. We need help up front and/or a magician OC. I am not here to rant about any of our players, I know they are putting the effort out. I am just saying we our more of a finesse offense and not smash mouth like we our familiar with.

Now that is absolutely right.

SteelCityMan786
12-07-2008, 07:22 PM
Amazing isn't it this same "pathetic" offense trampled the Pats* D last week. C'mon guys - it's not time to throw the towel in on this O just yet.

And not to mention rallied back to tie the game against the Cowgirls???

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 07:25 PM
What surprises me is the fact that our Offensive unit playing so poorly surprises anyone ? We have a backfield comprised of a wounded stud RB surrounded by journeymen backs, shaky and inconsistent play at the Tackles, only two wideouts,(washington is f#cking ridiculous) and a Qb whom does not read defenses well and has no concept of actually performing as a professional QB. ( as opposed to playing glorified sandlot football.)

The only "let down" for me personally is,.... that like so often in our history,.....a World Championship quality defense will see all of their hard work, effort and performance go to waste,........

Do you really feel that Parker is/was a stud back Makaveli? What do you feel sets him apart from say Tatum Bell, Reuben Droughns or even our old friend Bam Morris, all of them simply a product of the system.

Dino 6 Rings
12-07-2008, 07:25 PM
I tell you this.

For all the issues our Offense may have, when the game is on the line, and we need a drive, the QB we have Right Now is the only one I've had confidence would get the job done since Terry Bradshaw.

Ben wins games. The Offense gets it done.

The Defense will win us a Championship.

43Hitman
12-07-2008, 07:27 PM
I tell you this.

For all the issues our Offense may have, when the game is on the line, and we need a drive, the QB we have Right Now is the only one I've had confidence would get the job done since Terry Bradshaw.

Ben wins games. The Offense gets it done.

The Defense will win us a Championship.


I agree. While I was really pissed at some of the decisions to hold the ball early in the game. He manned up when the game was on the line. And I love him for that.

Dino 6 Rings
12-07-2008, 07:36 PM
We need to stop kidding ourselves and just admit the fact that...

Our Defense is that Freaking Good!

Preacher
12-07-2008, 07:37 PM
You are 100% right. It took the Steelers 7 years to admit to themselves that Kordel Stewart could not play QB in the NFL. The truth is that Ben cannot either.

:troll:

Here we go again. State your team... if you know who your team really is, and let the education begin.

Dino 6 Rings
12-07-2008, 07:39 PM
HA HA HA!

Ben just drove us on a game tying score and then Romo sucked a big lemon!

Ben 1 ring. Romo 0.

How many starters have more rings than Ben? 1. And he's hurt this year.

Shoes
12-07-2008, 07:41 PM
Should of played Sweeeeeed the entire game :chuckle:

Hines0wnz
12-07-2008, 07:44 PM
This thread is funny.



To address the "journeyman" back comment, last I checked this is Parker's first and only team and Moore was a FA signing from his only NFL team. Who are the journeymen? Russell? Davis? :noidea:

stillers4me
12-07-2008, 07:46 PM
It's going to be a long week.

fansince'76
12-07-2008, 07:47 PM
It's going to be a long week.

Not really - the fact that we won the game will help.

fansince'76
12-07-2008, 07:48 PM
Should of played Sweeeeeed the entire game :chuckle:

SWEEEEEEEEEED wouldn't have dropped any passes, that's for sure. :chuckle:

Hines0wnz
12-07-2008, 07:48 PM
You are 100% right. It took the Steelers 7 years to admit to themselves that Kordel Stewart could not play QB in the NFL. The truth is that Ben cannot either.

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/militia-fail.jpg

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 08:16 PM
Your advice in private was to put LamberIsGod58 on ignore cause he's an idiot and doesn't know what he's talking about. I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt and argue with him constructively when he wants to be constructive instead of just ignoring him cause he thinks differently than me.

I'll be glad to tell you also sir, I'm not here to impress anyone or get inside any forum "inner circle". I'm here to talk/cheer/criticize/gripe in regards to my favorite team the Pittsburgh Steelers in a respectful and constructive manner with other fans. I'm not here to please you or that #$%^ who argues mine and others posts by saying; "I'm smart, you're dumb, now shut up until your spoken to."

Telling me I come on to strong and am running all over the forum?? What the hell is this a country club and I'm some "dum ignant po' folk" making too much noise for the forum elitists?? I broke the forum etiquette by starting a thread without having a 3000+ post count or being granted permission by the knights of the round Steelers fever forums??

What is the point of this site? Someone starts a thread; "The Steelers are the bes!t" and everyone replies "yeahhhhhh". Or someone starts the thread; "The Steelers are gonna win this week!" and everyone replies "yeahhhhhh". I'm not allowed to have an opinion or critisize and post accordingly as long as its clean and constructive? I missed the rules before I joined?

You can just not respond to me either along with that other guy if I bother you but I'm not here to follow any "secret" forum rules to please the elder members. I'm here to discuss the Steelers with other fans cause I live in NYC and all my friends are Giants fans. And that is exactly what I'm doing, discussing politely and constructively.

43Hitman
12-07-2008, 08:21 PM
Your advice in private was to put LamberIsGod58 on ignore cause he's an idiot and doesn't know what he's talking about. I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt and argue with him constructively when he wants to be constructive instead of just ignoring him cause he thinks differently than me.

I'll be glad to tell you also sir, I'm not here to impress anyone or get inside any forum "inner circle". I'm here to talk/cheer/criticize/gripe in regards to my favorite team the Pittsburgh Steelers in a respectful and constructive manner with other fans. I'm not here to please you or that jackass who argues mine and others posts by saying; "I'm smart, you're dumb, now shut up until your spoken to."

Telling me I come on to strong and am running all over the forum?? What the hell is this a country club and I'm some "dum ignant po' folk" making too much noise for the forum elitists?? I broke the forum etiquette by starting a thread without having a 3000+ post count or being granted permission by the knights of the round Steelers fever forums??

What is the point of this site? Someone starts a thread; "The Steelers are the bes!t" and everyone replies "yeahhhhhh". Or someone starts the thread; "The Steelers are gonna win this week!" and everyone replies "yeahhhhhh". I'm not allowed to have an opinion or critisize and post accordingly as long as its clean and constructive? I missed the rules before I joined?

You can just not respond to me either along with that other guy if I bother you but I'm not here to follow any "secret" forum rules to please the elder members. I'm here to discuss the Steelers with other fans cause I live in NYC and all my friends are Giants fans. And that is exactly what I'm doing, discussing politely and constructively.

Not when you say you want to crap in someone's mouth..No one is going to ever take you seriously when you start acting like a 12 year old who just got turned down by the pretty girl.

Paul Pyrch
12-07-2008, 08:25 PM
:tt02:Thank God for our defense. We were out rushed and out passed and maybe even out played. Arians just doesn't get it. Why keep trying to go up the middle when we are around the 5 yd. line? The other teams know this very well and stack up the middle. Arians needs to come up with different plays and forget about the middle. I wonder if Tomlin has said anything to him about this. If not, he should. In any event, I think Arians has to go.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 08:26 PM
Not when you say you want to crap in someone's mouth..No one is going to ever take you seriously when you start acting like a 12 year old who just got turned down by the pretty girl.

I asked him nicely to not respond to me in another thread that he was playing god in and he stopped responding but apparently he never read that post or he took a break. Search his past posts and see what he says to people. Rude is rude whether your subtle and clean about it or if you say something crude like #$%^ in the mouth. I figured a sports forum was the wrong place to be "politely rude and offenseful and "blunt and dirty rude" would be more appreciated.

stillers4me
12-07-2008, 08:26 PM
:tt02:Thank God for our defense. We were out rushed and out passed and maybe even out played. Arians just doesn't get it. Why keep trying to go up the middle when we are around the 5 yd. line? The other teams know this very well and stack up the middle. Arians needs to come up with different plays and forget about the middle. I wonder if Tomlin has said anything to him about this. If not, he should. In any event, I think Arians has to go.

Why were we throwing the ball on 3rd and 1????????????????? Every time??????

43Hitman
12-07-2008, 08:33 PM
I asked him nicely to not respond to me in another thread that he was playing god in and he stopped responding but apparently he never read that post or he took a break. Search his past posts and see what he says to people. Rude is rude whether your subtle and clean about it or if you say something crude like #$%^ in the mouth. I figured a sports forum was the wrong place to be "politely rude and offenseful and "blunt and dirty rude" would be more appreciated.


So you expect him not to respond to you anymore when you attack him. Are you living in some sort of fantasy land or something? Seriously man, your making yourself look like a tool. If you want to use that sort of language that's fine, but do it in the form of a private message or in the Blast Furnace, not in the normal forum. While I am really not trying to take sides here, your making it really tough for anyone to consider your opinion. My advice to you is to use a bit more tact. I love a good debate, but it's hard to debate with someone who just wants to flame. Do yourself a favor and don't get kicked off of this board, cause it's a great place to voice your opinion maturely.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 08:37 PM
So you expect him not to respond to you anymore when you attack him. Are you living in some sort of fantasy land or something? Seriously man, your making yourself look like a tool. If you want to use that sort of language that's fine, but do it in the form of a private message or in the Blast Furnace, not in the normal forum. While I am really not trying to take sides here, your making it really tough for anyone to consider your opinion. My advice to you is to use a bit more tact. I love a good debate, but it's hard to debate with someone who just wants to flame. Do yourself a favor and don't get kicked off of this board, cause it's a great place to voice your opinion maturely.

If you're going to ignore his posts which are clearly flames but just don't include the word $hit than please don't tell me what I'm making myself look to you. I'll leave profanity out of my comments from now on as the forum rules ask but I really don't know you nor do I care what I look like to you sir.

43Hitman
12-07-2008, 08:40 PM
If you're going to ignore his posts which are clearly flames but just don't include the word $hit than please don't tell me what I'm making myself look to you. I'll leave profanity out of my comments from now on as the forum rules ask but I really don't know you nor do I care what I look like to you sir.

That is your choice, and I respect that. And am thankful that you will not use the profanity's in this part of the forums. Go Steelers. Hey at least we can agree that we both love the Steelers. :drink:

Frankie3521
12-07-2008, 08:42 PM
The talent is there at the skill positions, just no o-line. The fact that the o-line has been so bad all year has caused Ben to always look over his shoulder waiting for a big hit from his blind side. It's messed up all timing and rhythm.

Ricco Suavez
12-07-2008, 08:43 PM
With so much bitchin and moanin I just thought I had come to a Browns board by mistake. Why can we not just enjoy a great TEAM win and enjoy our TEAMS 10 win season so far. We all know we have some issues but I think that is what should make this win and all the other wins that more enjoyable. We knew coming into this season we had a killer schedule and a suspect O-line and we sit at 10-3 atop our division. I still believe we can gain momentum the next few weeks for a playoff run. And if we do all this talk will have been for nothing. If we lose then all this talk will still be for nothing. I believe in the Steelers both players owners and staff and all i can hope for is that they will do what is best. And if we lose or play crappy I will be sad and possibly angry and next time I will be back to cheer them on. But honestly i can't ever remember such turmoil after a big win. And for anyone who thinks the Cowboys are not very good just watch next weeks game with the Giants. I promise it to be a hard hitting affair.

stillers4me
12-07-2008, 08:47 PM
With so much bitchin and moanin I just thought I had come to a Browns board by mistake. Why can we not just enjoy a great TEAM win and enjoy our TEAMS 10 win season so far. We all know we have some issues but I think that is what should make this win and all the other wins that more enjoyable. We knew coming into this season we had a killer schedule and a suspect O-line and we sit at 10-3 atop our division. I still believe we can gain momentum the next few weeks for a playoff run. And if we do all this talk will have been for nothing. If we lose then all this talk will still be for nothing. I believe in the Steelers both players owners and staff and all i can hope for is that they will do what is best. And if we lose or play crappy I will be sad and possibly angry and next time I will be back to cheer them on. But honestly i can't ever remember such turmoil after a big win. And for anyone who thinks the Cowboys are not very good just watch next weeks game with the Giants. I promise it to be a hard hitting affair.

Best post of the night.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sueincinci/Smileys/gold.gif

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 08:48 PM
That is your choice, and I respect that. And am thankful that you will not use the profanity's in this part of the forums. Go Steelers. Hey at least we can agree that we both love the Steelers. :drink:

We can definitely agree on that. I hope the next time I start a thread to constructively discuss the offensive problems, it is not hijacked by someone who says the thread is "Dumb and stupid and pointless and should be closed cause he doesn't agree with what the OP thinks". I'll be happy to discuss/argue the Steelers with you politely and without making personal remarks towards you anytime 43Hitman.

pepsyman1
12-07-2008, 08:55 PM
I'll agree that it was a great TEAM win, but a previous poster was DEAD ON...the issues are starting with the O-line. The pass blocking has improved from the abysmal start. (many of the sacks given up now are caused by Ben holding the ball so long), BUT the line is not creating any running lanes. We have a couple of truly quality RB's and can't move the ball on the ground at all. When we're down inside the 5 and try to run, it just becomes more glaring to look at. We've got defenders in the backfield by the time the RB has the ball in his hands.

markymarc
12-07-2008, 09:08 PM
Our biggest issue offensively is the OL and Arians play calling. Unfortunately it showed up again in this game. But I tell you what they made plays when it did matter in the 4th quarter and got the win.

X-Terminator
12-07-2008, 09:16 PM
Your advice in private was to put LamberIsGod58 on ignore cause he's an idiot and doesn't know what he's talking about. I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt and argue with him constructively when he wants to be constructive instead of just ignoring him cause he thinks differently than me.

I'll be glad to tell you also sir, I'm not here to impress anyone or get inside any forum "inner circle". I'm here to talk/cheer/criticize/gripe in regards to my favorite team the Pittsburgh Steelers in a respectful and constructive manner with other fans. I'm not here to please you or that #$%^ who argues mine and others posts by saying; "I'm smart, you're dumb, now shut up until your spoken to."

Telling me I come on to strong and am running all over the forum?? What the hell is this a country club and I'm some "dum ignant po' folk" making too much noise for the forum elitists?? I broke the forum etiquette by starting a thread without having a 3000+ post count or being granted permission by the knights of the round Steelers fever forums??

What is the point of this site? Someone starts a thread; "The Steelers are the bes!t" and everyone replies "yeahhhhhh". Or someone starts the thread; "The Steelers are gonna win this week!" and everyone replies "yeahhhhhh". I'm not allowed to have an opinion or critisize and post accordingly as long as its clean and constructive? I missed the rules before I joined?

You can just not respond to me either along with that other guy if I bother you but I'm not here to follow any "secret" forum rules to please the elder members. I'm here to discuss the Steelers with other fans cause I live in NYC and all my friends are Giants fans. And that is exactly what I'm doing, discussing politely and constructively.

See, this is what I get for trying to help people. You said you wanted to "crap in someone's mouth." That part of your post was out of line, and you know it! If someone is giving you shit and you think they are getting out of line, why in the hell would you stoop to that level?

Ah, screw it. This is the first and last time I try to help someone. Go ahead and get yourself banned, I don't give a shit.

thebus36idf
12-07-2008, 09:17 PM
who didn't see this thread coming?

I did !!!!! Considering another crappy offensive performance. Some of you guys need suck it up and call a spade a spade. Baltimore's blitz packages will eat us up if we don't do something. Or maybe we can just line up in shotgun, and take our chances week after week on the defense bailing us. If these guys on offense of the offensive coaching staff worked for me they would all have their jobs on the line. OR I CAN JUST BE IN DENIAL AND COMPLAIN AND MOAN WHEN THE INEVITABLE HAPPENS AND WE CAN ALL PRETEND WE DIDN'T SEE IT COMING ie: Look at what happened to our economy. OOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSS TOOOOOOO Late!!! Put down the hammer Tomlin, and shake things up. I guess I'm not a legit steelers fan now?

fansince'76
12-07-2008, 09:17 PM
See, this is what I get for trying to help people. You said you wanted to "crap in someone's mouth." That part of your post was out of line, and you know it! If someone is giving you shit and you think they are getting out of line, why in the hell would you stoop to that level?

Ah, screw it. This is the first and last time I try to help someone. Go ahead and get yourself banned, I don't give a shit.

It's cool, X-T - me and NYC have discussed it, OK? :drink:

stillers4me
12-07-2008, 09:41 PM
I did !!!!! Considering another crappy offensive performance. Some of you guys need suck it up and call a spade a spade. Baltimore's blitz packages will eat us up if we don't do something. Or maybe we can just line up in shotgun, and take our chances week after week on the defense bailing us. If these guys on offense of the offensive coaching staff worked for me they would all have their jobs on the line. OR I CAN JUST BE IN DENIAL AND COMPLAIN AND MOAN WHEN THE INEVITABLE HAPPENS AND WE CAN ALL PRETEND WE DIDN'T SEE IT COMING ie: Look at what happened to our economy. OOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSS TOOOOOOO Late!!! Put down the hammer Tomlin, and shake things up. I guess I'm not a legit steelers fan now?

I don't think anyone is in denial about the o line. There have been dozens, no, hundreds of threads about it for 2 years now. But with only 65 posts to your name, you shouldn't be assuming that the rest of us are blind to certain facts. Nobody's pretending anything. Can't we just enjoy a win and the big plays that got us there? Both offenses were batted around tonight pretty good. But only one team came up with the big plays to win the game. The Steelers, again.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 10:03 PM
I'll agree that it was a great TEAM win, but a previous poster was DEAD ON...the issues are starting with the O-line. The pass blocking has improved from the abysmal start. (many of the sacks given up now are caused by Ben holding the ball so long), BUT the line is not creating any running lanes. We have a couple of truly quality RB's and can't move the ball on the ground at all. When we're down inside the 5 and try to run, it just becomes more glaring to look at. We've got defenders in the backfield by the time the RB has the ball in his hands.

Very true about the sacks at this point although there is still "too" much pressure sometimes though that is something every o-line faces so you can't really say anything. But as you said, the rushing offense is nearly non-existant, it's almost like the o-line is so worried about protecting Roethlisberger so much that they have ended up not paying any attention to the rushing offense aspect of their jobs. Which is odd cause if they get better at the run, there will automatically be less blitz's.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-07-2008, 10:11 PM
Its a win. An ugly win, but still counts as a win.

If the Steelers lost, everybody would be saying that "Tomlin shouldnt have gone for it on 4th down" or "we need to be able to run it in from the 1 yard line". Both are valid statements, but lets just enjoy the last 3 games and playoffs.

If the Steelers make it to and win the Super Bowl......I'll be happily shocked, but I'm just trying to enjoy the ride to the postseason.

Steely McSmash
12-07-2008, 10:15 PM
Amazing isn't it this same "pathetic" offense trampled the Pats* D last week. C'mon guys - it's not time to throw the towel in on this O just yet.

Last week they scored 2TD and one of those was only an 8 yard drive. Hardly a trampling. Jeff Reed carried the day.

steelwall
12-07-2008, 10:16 PM
I believe the bottom line is... we are the team right now who no one wants to see. Just ask Dallas. Our defense will keep us in the game (and at times take the game over), and our O (as bad as some say) does have the fight and the ability to not give up, and come back on you, should you get ahead.

fansince'76
12-07-2008, 10:22 PM
How in the world can a team get 5 turnovers have a great D and have an O that can't take advantage of anything? Even the 2000 Ravens O could score when given turnovers with a short field.

Really? Is that why the 2000 Ravens went 2+ months without an offensive TD at one point during that season?

Petesburgh66
12-07-2008, 10:39 PM
Kidding ourselves?

The Steelers are 10 and 3 and have played the hardest NFL schedule in years. I am happy as pig in shit right now. I didn't foresee the Steelers having this record at this point in time once I saw the schedule came out.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 11:01 PM
If the Steelers lost, everybody would be saying that "Tomlin shouldnt have gone for it on 4th down" or "we need to be able to run it in from the 1 yard line"

I'll still say it Gonzo, he shouldn't have gone for it on 4th down and we need to be able to convery 3rd and 4th and shorts. Can we win the Superbowl without doing those things, it's possible. I mean this defense is THAT good. But I would prefer if certain things were addressed instead of when they cause our demise.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 11:03 PM
Kidding ourselves?

The Steelers are 10 and 3 and have played the hardest NFL schedule in years. I am happy as pig in shit right now. I didn't foresee the Steelers having this record at this point in time once I saw the schedule came out.

lol..I'm just as happy man. I too didn't think 10-3 but I definitely thought we were more than capable of 11-5 coming into the season. The crazy part is we are 10-3 mostly thanks to our defense, if our offense was just average, not great or good or even above average, just average, we would be 13-0. Not that I really care. I don't think the seeding hurts us cause I'm not afraid of any AFC team.

Preacher
12-07-2008, 11:06 PM
I'll still say it Gonzo, he shouldn't have gone for it on 4th down and we need to be able to convery 3rd and 4th and shorts. Can we win the Superbowl without doing those things, it's possible. I mean this defense is THAT good. But I would prefer if certain things were addressed instead of when they cause our demise.

I was actually very happy with them going for it. Here is my reasoning.

We are down by 10 points at that time.

We go for it. If we punch it in, we have 3 left to get. If we don't what happens?

The Cowboys get the ball at our 2 yard line. We have a defense that very well could put up 2 points AND give the ball back to our offense to drive for a TD and 2 pointer.

Furthermore, you worry about he clock. To put the ball that close to their endzone, you limit their play. So chances are, with THIS defense, you will get the ball back with VERY GOOD field position. I am very happy with the decisions.

BlackAndGold4Ever
12-07-2008, 11:06 PM
Kidding ourselves?

The Steelers are 10 and 3 and have played the hardest NFL schedule in years. I am happy as pig in shit right now. I didn't foresee the Steelers having this record at this point in time once I saw the schedule came out.

Yeah I'mhappy as hell too knowing what our schedule was, but still if we cannot score ofenceivly we will not make it very far in the playoffs, no matter how good the defence is. Hey but I will celebrate this win all week no matter how ugly it was

cubanstogie
12-07-2008, 11:17 PM
I'll still say it Gonzo, he shouldn't have gone for it on 4th down and we need to be able to convery 3rd and 4th and shorts. Can we win the Superbowl without doing those things, it's possible. I mean this defense is THAT good. But I would prefer if certain things were addressed instead of when they cause our demise.

We can't pound the ball like we are accustomed to. Thats why I actually stick up for Arians. I could be wrong, but IMO its not about play calling when it is 1st and goal inside the 5. You have to be able to pound the ball or have the ability to pound it so the play action works. No trick plays or outsmarting D's at the goal line. It is more about execution. We tried running, we tried passing when Davis was stuffed. It was good coverage and a great tackle. I don't see how Arians is to blame there. The thing I am a little befuddled about is the lack of misdirection, screens or draws. When teams are getting to Ben those plays will slow them down if not work. It doesn't seem like we try them enough. That I will blame on Arians. But I am just a monday morning QB so my observations may not be credible. I will admit I was reminded of the Eagles game until the last couple of drives though. Its nice to see Ben stay focused and not force things even though we couldn't do squat early in game. That has to build confidence in the offense I would hope.

cubanstogie
12-07-2008, 11:19 PM
It will be interesting to see how we start against the Ravens. We know we will probably not run on them. I would love to see us open it up from the get go with the no huddle.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 11:23 PM
I was actually very happy with them going for it. Here is my reasoning.

We go for it. If we punch it in, we have 3 left to get. If we don't what happens?

The Cowboys get the ball at our 2 yard line. We have a defense that very well could put up 2 points AND give the ball back to our offense to drive for a TD and 2 pointer.


I actually agree with you on this. But what happens if the Cowboys anage a slow methodical scoring drive, even if it ends with just a field goal. The game is pretty much over. They would be up 16-3 with less than 10 minutes meaning we would need 3 scores at that point. We were barely able to put up the 3 points we had in over 3 quarters of play let alone have to score 3 times in les than 10 minutes.

If you kick the field goal, even if the Cowboys score a field goal on their next possesion you only need 2 score to tie it. I guess I'm still used to conservative Cowher football having lived with it for so long. I just agree with the premise of "living to see another drive" and not gambling on one play.

I'm just as happy as you it turned out to be a win in the end though.

NYC SteelersFan
12-07-2008, 11:57 PM
I will admit I was reminded of the Eagles game until the last couple of drives though.

Monday mornign QB'ing or not you're dead on, I felt the exact same thing. Here is the thing, Dallas, Philadelphia and the Giants are 1st 2nd and 3rd in team sacks (we're tied for 1st with Dallas). If you think about, the Giants game also looked like the Eagles game and today's game except we scored early in that one on moore's long TD run and put up additional points cause we were able to rush on the Giants (I personally think it's because Parker was not in the game at all). But the fact is our offense looked extra special bad in all 3 games. Arian's has not properly equiped this offense with plays to counter the blitz. despite beng aware of how bad this o-line is (and if he doesn't know well then he should be fired immediately). And I don't think we rush it enough. Keep at it, beat them up, wear the defense down. It takes consistency, commitment and persistance to get the rush going for most teams.

Again I think he is predictable, this has become his biggest flaw. Whenever the opponent blitz's, sure enough, we're running a pass play. It's like they know what we're going to run. I can't remember the last time we ran a rush during a blitz and got big yardage out of it. And whenever we do rush? The defense has 11 guys in the box.

I think Willie Parker is a down right problem personally. I don't even blame Parker although I believe he was never that good and is near the end of his career already, still I'll blame Tomlin and Arian's who are using Cowher's rush scheme, which was designed for a 250 pound back, not Willie Parker. It may have worked temporarily when the o-line was decent, but it's not getting past anyone anymore.

augustashark
12-08-2008, 12:51 AM
Monday mornign QB'ing or not you're dead on, I felt the exact same thing. Here is the thing, Dallas, Philadelphia and the Giants are 1st 2nd and 3rd in team sacks (we're tied for 1st with Dallas). If you think about, the Giants game also looked like the Eagles game and today's game except we scored early in that one on moore's long TD run and put up additional points cause we were able to rush on the Giants (I personally think it's because Parker was not in the game at all). But the fact is our offense looked extra special bad in all 3 games. Arian's has not properly equiped this offense with plays to counter the blitz. despite beng aware of how bad this o-line is (and if he doesn't know well then he should be fired immediately). And I don't think we rush it enough. Keep at it, beat them up, wear the defense down. It takes consistency, commitment and persistance to get the rush going for most teams.

Again I think he is predictable, this has become his biggest flaw. Whenever the opponent blitz's, sure enough, we're running a pass play. It's like they know what we're going to run. I can't remember the last time we ran a rush during a blitz and got big yardage out of it. And whenever we do rush? The defense has 11 guys in the box.

I think Willie Parker is a down right problem personally. I don't even blame Parker although I believe he was never that good and is near the end of his career already, still I'll blame Tomlin and Arian's who are using Cowher's rush scheme, which was designed for a 250 pound back, not Willie Parker. It may have worked temporarily when the o-line was decent, but it's not getting past anyone anymore.

I've read most of your posts from sunday and have agreed with most of your points, but the bolded part above I completely disagree with you. How soon you and many forget about Parker leading the league in rushing last year before being hurt. Oh and you never thought he was good! I just wonder what was coming out of your mouth when he broke that SB record run in XL. I think your biggest proplem is that you deal in alot of absolutes......Don't get me wrong, I do as well, but you have to pick your battles and when it comes to Parker I think you have picked the wrong one.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 01:30 AM
I just wonder what was coming out of your mouth when he broke that SB record run in XL.

Incoherent yells and screams. But if I were to judge players based on their Superbowl performances, than I would think that Roethlisberger is not a top 5 quarterback, which I think he is. And I would think that Adam Vinatieri is one of the greatest players of all time, which I most certainly do not.

I haven't forgotten that Willie Parker went over 1,000 yards 3 times but I also don't go by that in judging running backs otherwise I would think that Tatum Bell, Reuben Droughs and Mike Anderson are also good and valuable running backs, and they are not, they are products of a good rush system (the best in the league in my opinion). But I think our rush scheme is 2nd best in the league and has been for over a decade. Amos Zereoue almost had 1,000 yards in limited carries with our team. You put any young, healthy, able-bodied running back and they'll be able to run for over 1,000 yards within the Steelers system if given the carries.

The difference between an average running back, good running back and great running back is which one performs at the most consistent level despite the level of play from the o-line. An average running back is good if the o-line is good and bad if the o-line is bad. A good running back is good if the o-line is good and pretty good if the o-line is bad. A great running back is good if the o-line is good and good if the o-line is bad.

I never liked Parker cause I grew up on Bettis. It's hard going from 250 pound beast to a 200 pound sprinter. And just as I think now, I feel Parker has always required at least 15 carries of 2 yards or less just so he can break 1 for 20-30 yards. It was too much unproductiveness for very limited production. And now he rarely breaks one.

Steeldude
12-08-2008, 01:39 AM
Amazing isn't it this same "pathetic" offense trampled the Pats* D last week. C'mon guys - it's not time to throw the towel in on this O just yet.

the offense was helped out by 5 patriot TOs. also the steelers' offense started 4 times in patriots' territory.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 01:40 AM
the offense was helped out by 5 patriot TOs. also the steelers' offense started 4 times in patriots' territory.

Twice in the Patriots redzone

fansince'76
12-08-2008, 01:49 AM
the offense was helped out by 5 patriot TOs.

So, I guess the scores count for less when they come on a short field? I'm keeping in mind the 4 turnovers we handed over to the Patriots in our last AFCCG meeting against them (while they had 0). Seems to me TDs are 6 points and FGs are 3 points regardless of whether they come on the heels of a 70-80 yard drive or not.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:01 AM
Seems to me TDs are 6 points and FGs are 3 points regardless of whether they come on the heels of a 70-80 yard drive or not.

Absolutely, but the 70-80 yard ones are harder to come by, for us anyway. If we play a team that does not make any mistakes, and by some miracle our defense does not force any turnovers and gives up 20 or more, what happens? At least I am confident that the defense most likey would not allow that to happen regardless of the opponent.

augustashark
12-08-2008, 02:01 AM
Incoherent yells and screams. But if I were to judge players based on their Superbowl performances, than I would think that Roethlisberger is not a top 5 quarterback, which I think he is. And I would think that Adam Vinatieri is one of the greatest players of all time, which I most certainly do not.

I haven't forgotten that Willie Parker went over 1,000 yards 3 times but I also don't go by that in judging running backs otherwise I would think that Tatum Bell, Reuben Droughs and Mike Anderson are also good and valuable running backs, and they are not, they are products of a good rush system (the best in the league in my opinion). But I think our rush scheme is 2nd best in the league and has been for over a decade. Amos Zereoue almost had 1,000 yards in limited carries with our team. You put any young, healthy, able-bodied running back and they'll be able to run for over 1,000 yards within the Steelers system if given the carries.

The difference between an average running back, good running back and great running back is which one performs at the most consistent level despite the level of play from the o-line. An average running back is good if the o-line is good and bad if the o-line is bad. A good running back is good if the o-line is good and pretty good if the o-line is bad. A great running back is good if the o-line is good and good if the o-line is bad.

I never liked Parker cause I grew up on Bettis. It's hard going from 250 pound beast to a 200 pound sprinter. And just as I think now, I feel Parker has always required at least 15 carries of 2 yards or less just so he can break 1 for 20-30 yards. It was too much unproductiveness for very limited production. And now he rarely breaks one.

A. I never said that Parkers XL performance made him anymore then what he is. I was trying to point out that you never liked him as our RB, but on that play you loved him. B. So Parker leading the league last year with a avg line at best makes him what? C. Not a Barry Sanders fan I guess? Oh yea just one more time.....HE WAS LEADING THE LEAGUE IN RUSHING LAST YEAR UNTIL HIS INJURY!!!!!!

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:16 AM
A. I never said that Parkers XL performance made him anymore then what he is. I was trying to point out that you never liked him as our RB, but on that play you loved him. B. So Parker leading the league last year with a avg line at best makes him what? C. Not a Barry Sanders fan I guess? Oh yea just one more time.....HE WAS LEADING THE LEAGUE IN RUSHING LAST YEAR UNTIL HIS INJURY!!!!!!

A. I know you didn't say that, I was just pointing out the just because I was rooting for him, like I do for al Steelers players during a game, whether I like them or not, does not mean I contradict the fact I never liked him. B. I don't care about total yards, I care what he does on every carry and on most of his carries he goes for 2 or less. C. Barry Sanders was a freak of nature and a legend. There has not been a single running back that can shine that man's shoes since he retired. I don't know what Sanders and Parker have in common.

SteelCityKingsVP
12-08-2008, 02:17 AM
Honestly,
I know last week vs. the Pats none of you were saying that. Where's your faith? Obviously you dont bleed black and gold as most of the rest of us do. I think everyone should stop complaining about how terrible the Offense is, mind you who tied the game today? Oh, thats right BEN ROETHLISBERGER, and the OFFENSE, without the OFFENSE we lost the game you morons! The Offense has been good enough to help us win 10 games so far this year. Yes we have some problems, but not enough to throw in the towel on them yet, I mean, yeah the o-line played pretty lowsy the second half, but they still scored, the same as the Cowboys did. And yes with 5 turnovers and the field position we averaged we should have scored more, but remember the Dallas D isnt exactly made up of a bunch of slouches either, they're a quality D. Obviously not as good as the Steelers D. But they are a good D. And they played a good game, the same as the Pats d. We just had a bad day thats all. Frankly Im ashamed of all you whiners out there. You shouldnt even call yourselves true Steeler fans its obvious your just bandwagoners. Whether you win by an inch or by a mile....WINNING IS WINNING, it doesnt have to be pretty! The only thing that matters is what the score board say when the clock ticks zero. Like Tomlin said there is too much focus on style points. No it wasnt a pretty win but it WAS a BEAUTIFUL GAME!

steeltheone
12-08-2008, 02:22 AM
As i've stated many times before our recievers are just average.....without a Legit deep threat

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:24 AM
Frankly Im ashamed of all you whiners out there. You shouldnt even call yourselves true Steeler fans its obvious your just bandwagoners.

Talking about the teams problems is not whining, it's talking about the teams problems. A forum is for discussion, not blind cheerleading. I cheer for the team louder than you, but I also like coming here to talk about the teams problems and strengths with others, not come here and simply type, "THE STEELERS ARE THE BESTEST EVER WOOOOHOOOOOO", over and over, that just wouldn't be interesting.

And bandwagoneers would be fans of the Giants or Titans right now.

augustashark
12-08-2008, 02:25 AM
A. I know you didn't say that, I was just pointing out the just because I was rooting for him, like I do for al Steelers players during a game, whether I like them or not, does not mean I contradict the fact I never liked him. B. I don't care about total yards, I care what he does on every carry and on most of his carries he goes for 2 or less. C. Barry Sanders was a freak of nature and a legend. There has not been a single running back that can shine that man's shoes since he retired. I don't know what Sanders and Parker have in common.

Don't know how to debate you. "I don't care about total yards" :chuckle: really dude I don't know what else to say after that comment. Oh yea, the reason I brought up Sanders was because you keep bringing up the whole 2yds then he busts a long one.....kinda reminds me of the Sanders argument.

SteelCityKingsVP
12-08-2008, 02:33 AM
Talking about the teams problems is not whining, it's talking about the teams problems. A forum is for discussion, not blind cheerleading. I cheer for the team louder than you, but I also like coming here to talk about the teams problems and strengths with others, not come here and simply type, "THE STEELERS ARE THE BESTEST EVER WOOOOHOOOOOO", over and over, that just wouldn't be interesting.

And bandwagoneers would be fans of the Giants or Titans right now.

I Highly doubt you cheer for the steelers louder than I do. Im simply stating that all you people are doing is complaining about how bad the offense is when we won the freakin game? Yeah they have their good and bad days as we all do. If you lived in PITTSBURGH you'd know what the difference between a true steelerfan and a bandwagoner was. And as you said "A forum is for discussion." Where in what I stated before did I say the steelers are the best ever? Maybe if you actually read what I said instead of taking offence to what I said to your post you would have got it. Why dont you just stay in NYC. And obviously my post was interesting enough for you to reply to it.

Steelers & I
12-08-2008, 02:39 AM
Overall I'm happy, the Steelers pulled it out, somehow??? They're now 10-3, and although some of you may be ecstatic about the record, It's not that big of a deal to me. I predicted that they would go 11-5 this season so they're probably a game up on my prediction. 10-3, EXPECTED! Some of you need to stop acting as if this team has overachieved. We're not the Falcons, Panthers, or Dolphins, we're the Steelers and tough schedule or not, 10-3 is right on par.

I, like many other members, am disappointed with the play of the offense yesterday. During the past month or so, I've seen the offense take baby steps in the direction of righting the ship but yesterday, I saw the offense take 3 steps backwards.

Once again the Steelers reverted back to multiple play calls from 4 and 5 WR sets which entailed long developing WR routes. I don't know about you guys but I'm tired of seeing this "pass first approach". This is not Steelers football and I'm not the least bit impressed with it. I just don't find any logic in attempting to win a Super Bowl with a spread offense. History, past Super Bowl Champions have shown that this IS NOT the path to travel. These plays designs are more suited for the college game.

The Steelers also reverted back to multiple rushing attempts without a lead blocking FB. After the game, one of the guys on ESPN News even questioned why the Steelers didn't put a FB in front of the RB during those short yardage running situations. I don't understand it either, it just blows my mind. The Steelers absolutely need a FB in those situations to absorb the initial defender. How many times does the coaching staff have to watch singleback formation runs being stuffed by the intial defender, who would otherwise be absorbed by a FB?

Arians bashing, it's simply not worth arguing about anymore. If the pro-Arians members don't see the problems with Arians play designs and play calling, then we're simply not watching the same games. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:44 AM
Don't know how to debate you. "I don't care about total yards" :chuckle: really dude I don't know what else to say after that comment. Oh yea, the reason I brought up Sanders was because you keep bringing up the whole 2yds then he busts a long one.....kinda reminds me of the Sanders argument.

Total yards are meaningless, I'm sorry if you don't know how to debate that. Mike Anderson, Reuben Droughns, Tatum Bell, Chester Taylor, Ladell Betts, Michael Vick, LaMont Jordan, all these guys have gone over 1,000 yards over the last 3 years, where are they now? Except for Vick, which is obvious where he is. Do you know how many players go over 1,000 yards every season, nearly half the league. It's just not a big deal. Now going over 1,500 yards, then it's a big deal regardless of average, cause even if the average is low he still deserves some credit for being a horse. Mewelde Moore would easily finish the season with 1,000+ yards had he not been splitting carries. How good is Mewelde Moore?

Sanders would rush 5-6 times for 2 yards and break one, rush 5-6 times and break one, sometimes it would take a few more rushes before he could break one. And when he would break it, it would be the length of the field usually. It takes Parker 15-20 carries before he can break one. I mean Parker and Barry Sanders just should not even be mentioned in the same sentence, it's blasphemy. Listen, you like Parker, that's cool, I just think he's not someone that can't easilybe replaced, and him having three 1,000 yard seasons for the second best rushing offensive system of the past decade is not going to change my mind.

Aussie_steeler
12-08-2008, 02:45 AM
I am going to approach this from a slightly different angle.

I think the other teams are scared when they see the steelers as the next game or upcoming game on their schedule.

Why? They know they are facing the #1 Defence that is downright scary. That is a known fact. Opposing teams also know that there is still a strong chance of losing even if they come up against the steelers when the Offense is struggling (like today)

What is really scary is that they know they are no chance of winning when the Offense is clicking.

Yes I would love to see the offense firing on all cylinders week in week out but currently I am more than happy as the wins keep coming in. ( who wouldnt be)

With a consistent running game this team would be nearly untouchable. Lets just have some faith that the next week will bring a balanced effort cause we know the #1 D will continue to show up.

BozMan
12-08-2008, 03:01 AM
Why were we throwing the ball on 3rd and 1????????????????? Every time??????

I've been wondering the same thing. We throw on third and short waaaaay too often.

This blog post (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2008/11/23/668486/a-thorough-analysis-of-the) has an analysis of plays the Steelers ran on third and short through Week 12. Bottom line is that the calls have been skewed way too much in favor of the pass.

I know we can't always run, but it seems like we are almost always passing!

If the frequent passing was successful, then yeah, let's keep doing it. But it obviously has been a pathetic failure. Time to mix it up with some runs! (And a FB blocking!)

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 03:08 AM
I've been wondering the same thing. We throw on third and short waaaaay too often.

Cause we get stuffed when we try to rush it on 3rd and short, which is the main problem causing the secondary problem. We have one of the worst rushing offense's I have ever witnessed as a Steeler's fan of the last 15 years. I think it is as much an offensive coordinating/coaching problem as it is simply because of a sub-average o-line.

There is no consistency or persistence in our rush scheme.

augustashark
12-08-2008, 03:16 AM
Total yards are meaningless, I'm sorry if you don't know how to debate that. Mike Anderson, Reuben Droughns, Tatum Bell, Chester Taylor, Ladell Betts, Michael Vick, LaMont Jordan, all these guys have gone over 1,000 yards over the last 3 years, where are they now? Except for Vick, which is obvious where he is. Do you know how many players go over 1,000 yards every season, nearly half the league. It's just not a big deal. Now going over 1,500 yards, then it's a big deal regardless of average, cause even if the average is low he still deserves some credit for being a horse. Mewelde Moore would easily finish the season with 1,000+ yards had he not been splitting carries. How good is Mewelde Moore?

Sanders would rush 5-6 times for 2 yards and break one, rush 5-6 times and break one, sometimes it would take a few more rushes before he could break one. And when he would break it, it would be the length of the field usually. It takes Parker 15-20 carries before he can break one. I mean Parker and Barry Sanders just should not even be mentioned in the same sentence, it's blasphemy. Listen, you like Parker, that's cool, I just think he's not someone that can't easilybe replaced, and him having three 1,000 yard seasons for the second best rushing offensive system of the past decade is not going to change my mind.

Geesh!

Willie had over 1,300 yds in 14 games with a yds per rush avg over 4yds. Do you really think he would not have gotten to the 1,500 yd mark? Oh yea, tell me the last time your beloved Bettis went for 1,500?, little hint, he only did it once. Once a backup always a backup, that goes straight to the list you have above. Not counting rookie season, Willie has been the starter and has proven to be a good pro. Now understand he is not LT or AP, but he has done what we have asked from him. "you like parker thats cool" ahhhhh yea, I like every player while they wear the black and gold. Does not mean they are the best at their position, but they are part of the team that I love.

Funny how you point out that I don't know how to debate a guy when he says total yards are meaningless when we are disscussing a sport that is measured by stats for the position we are talking about. Wow that is a terrible run on sentence, screw it I leave it. lol.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 03:40 AM
Geesh!

Willie had over 1,300 yds in 14 games with a yds per rush avg over 4yds. Do you really think he would not have gotten to the 1,500 yd mark? Oh yea, tell me the last time your beloved Bettis went for 1,500?, little hint, he only did it once. Once a backup always a backup, that goes straight to the list you have above. Not counting rookie season, Willie has been the starter and has proven to be a good pro. Now understand he is not LT or AP, but he has done what we have asked from him. "you like parker thats cool" ahhhhh yea, I like every player while they wear the black and gold. Does not mean they are the best at their position, but they are part of the team that I love.

Funny how you point out that I don't know how to debate a guy when he says total yards are meaningless when we are disscussing a sport that is measured by stats for the position we are talking about. Wow that is a terrible run on sentence, screw it I leave it. lol.

Are you calling the Bus a backup?? You lost me. I root for him whenever he is on the field, but I don't like him because I don't think he is good. If Parker is cut tomorrow I would not blink. If Polamalu or Harrison or Roethlisberger or Heath Miller was cut tomorrow, I would break whatever I got the new from, human included. But I do root for him when he is on the field.

You were the one who said, "I don't know how to debate that."

when we are disscussing a sport that is measured by stats for the position we are talking about.

This makes absolutely no sense, as in literally, reread it. I think what you were trying to say was that the NFL is a sport measured by stats and that the running back is a position in football right? Stats are for the media and fan discussions, they are not always a good indication of a team or players achievments. The guy with the most RBI's is the guy who usually has the most guys getting on base for him, you wouldn't say the best baseball player is the guy with the most RBI's would you? How many RBI's and Homeruns does Alex Rodriguez hit every year? Too many. How many are garbage time stat-padding RBI's and Homeruns? Too many.

Average of yards per carry per game is the most important stat in my opinion when it comes to a running back. Even the collective, end of year average of yards per carry can be deceiving.

augustashark
12-08-2008, 03:58 AM
No I was not saying Bettis was a back up. Read the post again. I pointed out that the players you listed were backups and when given the chance they had one maybe two decent years and then back down to earth. Nice of you to answer the question on bettis only having one year where he had 1,500 yds or more. LOL, are you saying that Hank Aaron is not the best or top 5 players all time in baseball? That myfriend makes no sense! Sorry you did'nt understand the last sentence, but what I was trying to say is that RB'S are measured by their stats and those stats start with TOTAL YARDS which you pointed out means nothing to you. 2006 stats, 1494 yrds and 13 tds, I guess your right he is just a run of the mill rb. Respond if you like but the dabate is over in my mind, Paker is a very good back by todays standards and compared to the other backs you listed he is heads and shoulders above.

DACEB
12-08-2008, 05:49 AM
For all the issues our Offense may have, when the game is on the line, and we need a drive, the QB we have Right Now is the only one I've had confidence would get the job done since Terry Bradshaw.

Ben wins games. The Offense gets it done.

The Defense will win us a Championship.

Damn it we WON!:tt02:

Rick5895
12-08-2008, 06:13 AM
WE won, but the O better pick up the slack, I've said it before on here and will continue to say it, the play calling is all over the map, no continuity, whether it's Arians or Ben, and for God sake when it's 4th and short keep the fullback in and THEN motion the extra TE in.

Michael Keller
12-08-2008, 07:12 AM
I was really impressed with the game yesterday. I saw a team of players and coaches who really care about one another and pulling for each other. Players on both sides of the ball. I call it a character win. This team knows it can win and I am not sure there is anything more important than this awareness when your playing this game.

San Diego knows it won"t win.

I have really learned something this year. The Steelers are a team of cohesive players pulling for each other. Both the offensive players and defensive players. Add the ST players and now I can add MIke Tomlin to the list.

The defense is superb the offenense has some serious weaknesses. #1-offensive play calling, especially on the ooal line. #2-We miss a true power back as there is not one on the roster . Parker is no t even close, #3. While I do believe the O LIne is getting better it is not a consistenly strong offensive line .

With Ben you have to take the Bad (HOLDING THE BALL TOO LONG)

with the Good (MAKES INCREDIBLE BIG PLAYS BECAUSE HE REFUSES TO GO DOWN).

Personally I will take Ben over Palmer , Eli Manning, Romo , Rivers and any other relatively young QB. The guy had a bad first half (6 for 18.) He was 11 for 15n the second half.

I asked myself what it must be like to be a fan of a team that has Ben Rothlishberger as their QB. I would put up rubber mattreses in my living room where I watch the games if Ben were on the other team. THE KID IS A WINNER.and quite frankly and directly you fans who do not think so are spoiled and/ or do not not know your football. very well.

Most all of us including me did not expect this team to go DEEP into the play offs and now I can see how this Steeler team could win it all.

Enjoy the defense that at least could argue they are as good as the Steel Curtain. Enjoy the character and best effort possible being put forward by the offense. When I look around the league there is no greater team to be fan of than the Steelers. Just enjoy what you got because it is pretty dam good this year.

steel striker
12-08-2008, 08:03 AM
I thought we won this game and, if your looking for pretty wins where the offfense puts up 40 points you are rooting for the wrong team. Dallas is a good team and they have a very good defense so, be happy that we this game. Sure we need to score more points on the offensive side of the ball. Bottom line is we are 10-3. Time to get ready for the rats.

missedgehead
12-08-2008, 08:07 AM
Amazing isn't it this same "pathetic" offense trampled the Pats* D last week. C'mon guys - it's not time to throw the towel in on this O just yet.

They "trampled" the Patriots because they got some breaks. A muffed punt for starters. Let's be realistic here.

We have serious issues at offense. We were facing a tough Cowboys defense that was in Ben's face all day and pretty much forced themselves at will. Stopped us at 4th and 1 at the goal line. We had a hard time with my G Men. The offense has been anemic against tough defense. In the Pats game, and I am not making excuses and everyone is injured at this point, but the offense was facing a really banged up Pats team. Of course they trampled the Pats. Duh.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 08:28 AM
I'll still say it Gonzo, he shouldn't have gone for it on 4th down and we need to be able to convery 3rd and 4th and shorts. Can we win the Superbowl without doing those things, it's possible. I mean this defense is THAT good. But I would prefer if certain things were addressed instead of when they cause our demise.

Yes, we do need to be able to convert on 3rd or 4th and short.....but we dont have the players for it. We dont have a legit FB, short yardage back and most of our Linemen are backups that are starting due to injury.

I think the Rams won a super bowl without a decent short yardage offense. They had Manumaleuna as a lead blocker for Marshall Faulk, so it can be done. I just think its unlikely, but hope it happens.

DACEB
12-08-2008, 08:42 AM
They "trampled" the Patriots because they got some breaks. A muffed punt for starters. Let's be realistic here.

Ever stop and consider, we make those breaks for ourselves with stellar play on defense and STs (besides the punting).

We have serious issues at offense. We were facing a tough Cowboys defense that was in Ben's face all day and pretty much forced themselves at will. Stopped us at 4th and 1 at the goal line.

Have to give credit to the Dallas D. Dallas was playing for they're division, hell they're season.

We had a hard time with my G Men.

Your G men?!?!:doh:

fansince'76
12-08-2008, 08:44 AM
They "trampled" the Patriots because they got some breaks. A muffed punt for starters. Let's be realistic here.

We have serious issues at offense. We were facing a tough Cowboys defense that was in Ben's face all day and pretty much forced themselves at will. Stopped us at 4th and 1 at the goal line. We had a hard time with my G Men. The offense has been anemic against tough defense. In the Pats game, and I am not making excuses and everyone is injured at this point, but the offense was facing a really banged up Pats team. Of course they trampled the Pats. Duh.

Seems to me your "G Men" have problems too. We've been playing "banged up" the majority of the year as well. So you can drop the excuses and stop pretending to be a Steelers fan and take yourself back over to your Pats*/Giants/whatever board any time, K? :coffee:

Vincent
12-08-2008, 08:56 AM
And Tomlin. A lot of people have left his name out but he is responsible as well I believe.

Willie Parker is 9 for 19 yards and on 1st and 5 on the Dallas 5 you try to rush it in with Parker on consecutive attempts when you haven't even been able to stuff it in from the goal line?

And then you go for it on 4th with another rush to try to prove what to who? That you don't have the 22nd ranked rushing offense in the league? Or to prove you have balls?

GAME OVER

The Head Coach is ultimately responsible. The buck stops there. He is responsible for all three phases of the game. The O has been weak since he took over and has gotten progressively worse. :banging:

fansince'76
12-08-2008, 09:00 AM
The Head Coach is ultimately responsible. The buck stops there. He is responsible for all three phases of the game. The O has been weak since he took over and has gotten progressively worse. :banging:

Yep, I guess that explains why the offense scored more points in 2007 than any season since 1995. :coffee:

DACEB
12-08-2008, 09:05 AM
The Head Coach is ultimately responsible. The buck stops there. He is responsible for all three phases of the game. The O has been weak since he took over and has gotten progressively worse. :banging:

Two of those phases have actually improved. #1 defense across the board, with the pass defense improving by leaps and bounds from previous years. And lets not forget the STs, which actually lost games for us in the past.

I totally agree that the buck stops with Tomlin, but that's probably a poor argument here. Even the play-calling, while sporadic at best, has improved since Tomlins called out Arians.

X-Terminator
12-08-2008, 09:14 AM
I Highly doubt you cheer for the steelers louder than I do. Im simply stating that all you people are doing is complaining about how bad the offense is when we won the freakin game? Yeah they have their good and bad days as we all do. If you lived in PITTSBURGH you'd know what the difference between a true steelerfan and a bandwagoner was. And as you said "A forum is for discussion." Where in what I stated before did I say the steelers are the best ever? Maybe if you actually read what I said instead of taking offence to what I said to your post you would have got it. Why dont you just stay in NYC. And obviously my post was interesting enough for you to reply to it.

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that if you don't think the offense has problems, then I'm sorry, but you are just being a blind homer. I give them full credit for coming through at the end of the game when they absolutely had to. But what about the other 53 minutes? The D forced 3 turnovers and the ST 1, all of which put them in great field position including 3 times in Dallas territory, and all they got was 3 points out of it. The O has to play better, plain and simple, and pointing that out doesn't make you less of a fan.

And keep in mind that this is coming from someone who is notorious on this board for getting on whiners and fair-weather fans, and calling the fanbase fickle and spoiled.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 09:31 AM
The Head Coach is ultimately responsible. The buck stops there. He is responsible for all three phases of the game. The O has been weak since he took over and has gotten progressively worse. :banging:
:rofl: 10-3 record and we are acting like the world is ending.

Only guy doing a better job with what he has to work with in the NFL is Mike Smith of the Falcons and maybe Mike Heimerdinger who took a lemon like Kerry Collins and is making Lemon-aid.

Tomlin is the best young football coach in the NFL right now.

steelersgab
12-08-2008, 09:31 AM
I actually thought the O-line didn't do all that bad pass blocking yesterday, but for whatever reason they couldn't run block...I think they are going to have to air it out a lot vs the Ravens

devilsdancefloor
12-08-2008, 09:32 AM
They "trampled" the Patriots because they got some breaks. A muffed punt for starters. Let's be realistic here.

We have serious issues at offense. We were facing a tough Cowboys defense that was in Ben's face all day and pretty much forced themselves at will. Stopped us at 4th and 1 at the goal line. We had a hard time with my G Men. The offense has been anemic against tough defense. In the Pats game, and I am not making excuses and everyone is injured at this point, but the offense was facing a really banged up Pats team. Of course they trampled the Pats. Duh.

that banged up pathetic defense put a hurting on a seahags team yesterday so um DUHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Paul Pyrch
12-08-2008, 09:36 AM
What a great post! Tell it like it is. People need to read this before they jump to conclusions on other people's opinions.

Paul Pyrch
12-08-2008, 09:41 AM
Yes, we do need to be able to convert on 3rd or 4th and short.....but we dont have the players for it. We dont have a legit FB, short yardage back and most of our Linemen are backups that are starting due to injury.

I think the Rams won a super bowl without a decent short yardage offense. They had Manumaleuna as a lead blocker for Marshall Faulk, so it can be done. I just think its unlikely, but hope it happens.

Yep...we don't have a legit FB because we let one of the best, (Kreider) go. And I do not understand why.

X-Terminator
12-08-2008, 09:47 AM
Yep...we don't have a legit FB because we let one of the best, (Kreider) go. And I do not understand why.

The Rams cut Kreider last week. The RAMS! So really, how good is he at this stage of his career? I'd call that another case of the Rooneys letting a player go at the right time, because if he can't cut it with a pathetic team like the Rams, then he's done.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 09:49 AM
Yep...we don't have a legit FB because we let one of the best, (Kreider) go. And I do not understand why.

It is because the new Steeler offense doesnt rely on a FB to lead block....it requires him to be a non-existant receiving threat and get stuffed in the hole by the SS.

Otherwise, it requires the FB to make a special teams tackle once every 5 games and celebrate it like he just scored a TD.

Dino 6 Rings
12-08-2008, 09:56 AM
If I was on the Steelers Special teams, I'd celebrate every time I made a tackle too.

but that's just me.

The Duke
12-08-2008, 10:01 AM
It is because the new Steeler offense doesnt rely on a FB to lead block....it requires him to be a non-existant receiving threat and get stuffed in the hole by the SS.

Otherwise, it requires the FB to make a special teams tackle once every 5 games and celebrate it like he just scored a TD.

lol, I knew you'd have something to say about davis after the game :sofunny:

This is the second time he does absolutely nothing at the goalline( jax playoff game)

kreider wouldn't have helped this team this season at all. he's done imo, but he as a great one

Kuhn would have gotten the TD though. ah, Kuhn..... :banging:

paw-n-maul-u
12-08-2008, 10:02 AM
I think this is the last year for
-Parker
-Smith
-Starks
and maybe the last year for
-Washington
-Simmons

That is a lot of freed up money (and I honestly think we can afford to lose every one of those players and not miss a beat) ... I feel they all no longer have any upside. Washington (although has been decent this year, still drops balls) ... Starks, Smith suck ... Simmons was overpaid ... Parker has done nothing this year (Moore is cheaper, Russell stays, and Mendenhall gets all the carries after a few games of splitting)

We could free up so much money to bring in a beast lineman in FA ... spend a couple draft picks on both sides of the trenches, and we're instantly better, no worse for sure, and a lot more upside.

DACEB
12-08-2008, 10:02 AM
If I was on the Steelers Special teams, I'd celebrate every time I made a tackle too.

but that's just me.

I'm not sure stomping on the guys head until his facemask is embedded in his face would be a legal celebration.:wink02:

The Duke
12-08-2008, 10:06 AM
I think this is the last year for
-Parker
-Smith
-Starks
and maybe the last year for
-Washington
-Simmons

That is a lot of freed up money (and I honestly think we can afford to lose every one of those players and not miss a beat) ... I feel they all no longer have any upside. Washington (although has been decent this year, still drops balls) ... Starks, Smith suck ... Simmons was overpaid ... Parker has done nothing this year (Moore is cheaper, Russell stays, and Mendenhall gets all the carries after a few games of splitting)



santonio has more drops than nate btw :coffee:

SteelCityKingsVP
12-08-2008, 10:08 AM
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that if you don't think the offense has problems, then I'm sorry, but you are just being a blind homer. I give them full credit for coming through at the end of the game when they absolutely had to. But what about the other 53 minutes? The D forced 3 turnovers and the ST 1, all of which put them in great field position including 3 times in Dallas territory, and all they got was 3 points out of it. The O has to play better, plain and simple, and pointing that out doesn't make you less of a fan.

And keep in mind that this is coming from someone who is notorious on this board for getting on whiners and fair-weather fans, and calling the fanbase fickle and spoiled.

Where in any of my posts did I even remotely even hint that I think the Offense doesnt have problems? Obviously when they cant even punch it in from 3rd and goal on the 2 yard line, and can only put 3 points on the board from 5 turnovers we have problems! I in no way incinuated that we didnt have problems. I have my complaints about the Offense just like everyone else. Yes, the O needs to play better. But the Steelers organization has never been recognized by their Offense, a medeocore Offense at best is what Steeler fans have grown accustom to over the years. Even in the 70's we didnt have a GREAT Offense! It was our Defense the won us those 4 world titles not our offense, they helped, thats why its called a team game. When the Offense faulters the D picks up the slack and when the D faulters (rarely) the O is suppose to pick up the slack. Sunday was on of the truest tests of character I've seen in my 25 years of being a Steeler fan. If they can pull out a win with the Offense playing as bad as they did yesterday they can beat ANYONE. No ifs ands or buts. They truely showed the meaning of team yesterday. I also agree that the coaching staff needs to make some changes in certain situations, like the goal to go situations. We dont have Bettis any longer, they seem to forget that, we dont have a power running game like we didnt in years past. Something I think we'll have more of next year when Mendenhall is healthy again. As for now they need to try other methods of punching it in. Especially, when other teams are EXPECTING us to try to run it from 3rd and 4th n' goal situations. No, Im not saying that we pass in every situation at all. But maybe use some of our resources like perhaps we do have a QB that can scramble, which I think is overlooked in many instances. I'd say the play action pass, but with a suspect O-line that could end up in shambles too. Bottom line, I agree with you that they need to play better. But, the Defense can, has, and will again win us another World title

paw-n-maul-u
12-08-2008, 10:11 AM
santonio has more drops than nate btw :coffee:

There is no way Santonio is not in a Steelers uni. next year. Washington could very well be gone. Santo Might have more drops, but he has way more upside.

BozMan
12-08-2008, 10:14 AM
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that if you don't think the offense has problems, then I'm sorry, but you are just being a blind homer. I give them full credit for coming through at the end of the game when they absolutely had to. But what about the other 53 minutes? The D forced 3 turnovers and the ST 1, all of which put them in great field position including 3 times in Dallas territory, and all they got was 3 points out of it. The O has to play better, plain and simple, and pointing that out doesn't make you less of a fan.

And keep in mind that this is coming from someone who is notorious on this board for getting on whiners and fair-weather fans, and calling the fanbase fickle and spoiled.

Thank you.

The offense needs to wake up and start carrying its weight. If we capitalize more on some of those turnovers, this game isn't even close going into the 4th quarter.

I fear that this amazing season by the defense will get wasted by the incompetence of the offense come playoff time. That would be really sad and disappointing, to say the least.

I think that people are focusing too much on the bottom line. Yes, we won and should be thankful (and relieved). But there is much more to look at than just the end result, and those numbers are not pretty. Just some of the problems on offense are...


Inconsistent running game
Poor pass protection leading to too many sacks
QB holding the ball too long, also leading to too many sacks
Frequently putting ourselves into 3rd and long situations
Miserable 4th down conversion rate. We are last in the league. LAST!
3rd and short conversion rate is also miserable.


Maybe the D can carry the team all the way to a SB Championship, but it will be hard to continue to scrape by good teams with this kind of offense. The O needs to capitalize on opportunities, plain and simple. If the O can do that, we will find ourselves with comfortable, early leads, which forces the other team's O to become 1-dimensional, which then helps our D.

revefsreleets
12-08-2008, 10:42 AM
Want to know what the problem is with the O? It's right here:

Starks, Kemo, Hartwig, Stapleton, Colon

I'm not even necessarily saying that these guys aren't becoming a decent unit, but how many of these guys were starters in 07? How many were slated to start at the beginning of 08? Take a look at these names again. No Faneca. No Smith. No Simmons. Given all the changes and injuries, I'd say these guys are doing a remarkable job.

steelreserve
12-08-2008, 10:43 AM
You know, I think I've got the answer to five of our six problems:


Inconsistent running game
stop giving the ball to Parker.
Poor pass protection leading to too many sacks
stop giving the ball to Parker. They can pass-rush us all day because they don't respect our running game
QB holding the ball too long, also leading to too many sacks
Frequently putting ourselves into 3rd and long situations
stop giving the ball to Parker.
Miserable 4th down conversion rate. We are last in the league. LAST!
stop giving the ball to Parker.
3rd and short conversion rate is also miserable.
stop giving the ball to Parker.



As for Ben holding on to the ball, I don't know what's going on with that. He used to make good plays when he did that. Now either people aren't getting open or he isn't seeing them, or something. In either case, someone probably needs a solid d*ckslap.

fansince'76
12-08-2008, 10:52 AM
You know, I think I've got the answer to five of our six problems:


Inconsistent running game
stop giving the ball to Parker.
Poor pass protection leading to too many sacks
stop giving the ball to Parker. They can pass-rush us all day because they don't respect our running game
QB holding the ball too long, also leading to too many sacks
Frequently putting ourselves into 3rd and long situations
stop giving the ball to Parker.
Miserable 4th down conversion rate. We are last in the league. LAST!
stop giving the ball to Parker.
3rd and short conversion rate is also miserable.
stop giving the ball to Parker.



Sorry, but it would help if the OL could actually open a hole once in a while and hold the line of attack as opposed to allowing deep penetration by the opposing DL before the ball is even handed off. The Bus would be getting stuffed just as badly and just as often considering the run blocking and if he was consistently getting hit 2-3 yards deep in the backfield. Basically blaming Parker as the primary reason for the offense being stuck in neutral is ludicrous. It starts up front.

steelreserve
12-08-2008, 11:02 AM
Sorry, but it would help if the OL could actually open a hole once in a while and hold the line of attack as opposed to allowing deep penetration by the opposing DL before the ball is even handed off. The Bus would be getting stuffed just as badly and just as often considering the run blocking. Basically blaming Parker as the primary reason for the offense being stuck in neutral is ludicrous. It starts up front.

No, I'm sticking with Parker as the explanation for both the inconsistent running game and the sacks. It's happened with the current "bad" offensive line, and it's happened with the same exact offensive line that won the Super Bowl. The day Bettis retired, our running game became inconsistent and our sacks doubled -- and stayed there.

Being one-dimensional makes the running game predictable and easy to stop. And when you don't have to respect the run, it makes it that much easier to go after the quarterback, not to mention the fact that the offense is facing 2nd-and-12 or 3rd-and-9 all the time.

This has been going on for three years now, and I'm sorry, but anyone who can't see it's causing problems is a fricking blind person.

fansince'76
12-08-2008, 11:03 AM
No, I'm sticking with Parker as the explanation for both the inconsistent running game and the sacks. It's happened with the current "bad" offensive line, and it's happened with the same exact offensive line that won the Super Bowl. The day Bettis retired, our running game became inconsistent and our sacks doubled -- and stayed there.

Being one-dimensional makes the running game predictable and easy to stop. And when you don't have to respect the run, it makes it that much easier to go after the quarterback, not to mention the fact that the offense is facing 2nd-and-12 or 3rd-and-9 all the time.

This has been going on for three years now, and I'm sorry, but anyone who can't see it's causing problems is a fricking blind person.

We'll agree to disagree, then. IMO, anybody who thinks there is nothing wrong with this OL is a blind person. Nobody was squawking about the running game when it was ranked 3rd in the league last year or when Willie was leading the league in rushing through 14 games before he broke his leg. No, last year it was all on Mahan and Arians, as I recall.

Steeldude
12-08-2008, 11:06 AM
So, I guess the scores count for less when they come on a short field?


no, but it helps to go a shorter distance. the steelers didn't do much when starting in their own territory.

steelers' drives starting in their own territory ended as follows.....punt, fumble, punt, punt, punt, punt, punt, downs, TD. while the TD drive in the end was great, it's not what i call positive consistency. the offense can't play like that in the post-season.

any offense that receives 5 TOs is going to have a big advantage. whether it's in their own or the opposing team's territory. i don't know of too many teams that have won games when they lose the TO battle.

I'm keeping in mind the 4 turnovers we handed over to the Patriots in our last AFCCG meeting against them (while they had 0)

and the steelers lost 41-27. would it have been the same if the steelers didn't turn it over 4 times? we'll never know.

Seems to me TDs are 6 points and FGs are 3 points regardless of whether they come on the heels of a 70-80 yard drive or not

yes, they still count for the same amount of points, but going 10 to 20 yards for a TD or FG is easier than going 70 to 80 yards. the steelers' offense hasn't shown the consistency to make 70 to 80 yards drives this year. that's not to say they haven't done it or can't do it.

don't me wrong, a win is a win, but the offense can't expect the defense to keep creating TOs, scoring TDs and holding opponents to such low scoring outputs each week. :smile:

LambertIsGod58
12-08-2008, 11:08 AM
We'll agree to disagree, then. IMO, anybody who thinks there is nothing wrong with this OL is a blind person. Nobody was squawking about the running game when it was ranked 3rd in the league last year or when Willie was leading the league in rushing through 14 games before he broke his leg. No, last year it was all on Mahan and Arians, as I recall.



anyone who doesn't agree with you is a blind person it seems.

Steeldude
12-08-2008, 11:09 AM
IMO, anybody who thinks there is nothing wrong with this OL is a blind person.

agreed.

fansince'76
12-08-2008, 11:10 AM
anyone who doesn't agree with you is a blind person it seems.

And according to you, anybody who doesn't agree with your infallible opinion has their head buried.

LambertIsGod58
12-08-2008, 11:13 AM
And according to you, anybody who doesn't agree with your infallible opinion has their head buried.


Ok....then please debate this. How was it Ben winning us XL when the running game and defense were ranked in the top 5 and the passing game no better than 18th. Which is in the bottom 50% of the league.

XxKnightxX
12-08-2008, 11:17 AM
Bring in Russell to get the first and goal. Take Russell out and two straight plays to Parker(who has done nothing all game). After a failed pass to Davis bring Russell back in on fourth when everyone knows he's getting the ball and he gets stuffed. Pathetic

That 4th and 1 was russles inability to explode on the handoff and McHugh just jumped into the pile when brady james was clearly blowing up the gap, McHugh gets a body on James It would of been a TD.

Other than that, yeah this offense sucks, but it tends to come through on key situations, lets face it , this years team is relying so highly on the defense and just hoping that the offense does something.

revefsreleets
12-08-2008, 11:18 AM
I thought that was the play where Colon whiffed?

XxKnightxX
12-08-2008, 11:22 AM
I thought that was the play where Colon whiffed?

Im not a coach nor I knew the play call, but that looked like a Power O play where all the line blocked down to create a wedge and instead of pulling the guard, they made McHugh do the OG's job to kick out any outside penetration, but he just jumped with the pile as if he was in a pillow party allowing james to just fire off like a cannon.

revefsreleets
12-08-2008, 11:24 AM
If it's the play I'm thinking of, Colon fell down and instead of one guy for the FB to block, there were 2 in the backfield. Tough for even John Kuhn to block 2 guys at once...

XxKnightxX
12-08-2008, 11:27 AM
If it's the play I'm thinking of, Colon fell down and instead of one guy for the FB to block, there were 2 in the backfield. Tough for even John Kuhn to block 2 guys at once...

John Kuhn would of been the center and he would of snapped the ball to himself and run it in for a TD lol

memphissteelergirl
12-08-2008, 11:40 AM
Am I missing something?? We DID win, right? :noidea: I didn't just dream it???

I know we all do a little Monday morning quarterbacking (I say "we" 'cause I do too) after a game, but damn! :doh: Some people are gonna find something to piss and moan about! Pardon my language, all, but I am just a little preturbed at the posts I'm seeing this morning. Not just here but on some other MB's. People, this was a WIN! Not a pretty one, to be sure, but a WIN! Against a historic, hated rival.

We have all bemoaned the performance of the offense, the sub-par o-line...the lousy playcalling by Arians. But the when the score had to be made they made it. And credit the defense for once again keeping us in it until the offense got it together.

I realize that some fans are going to be more critical than others, win or lose. But come on! We're 10-3, almost a certainty for the playoffs, and relatively healthy. That's a damn sight better than where we were last year this time. Try to find SOMETHING positive, for pity's sake. :banging:

(Rant over)

T.Richardson
12-08-2008, 11:43 AM
Ok....then please debate this. How was it Ben winning us XL when the running game and defense were ranked in the top 5 and the passing game no better than 18th. Which is in the bottom 50% of the league.

That running game almost cost the Steelers the AFC championship appearence, and Superbowl (colts game) without Ben, we would have lost, literally.

steelreserve
12-08-2008, 11:47 AM
We'll agree to disagree, then. IMO, anybody who thinks there is nothing wrong with this OL is a blind person. Nobody was squawking about the running game when it was ranked 3rd in the league last year or when Willie was leading the league in rushing through 14 games before he broke his leg. No, last year it was all on Mahan and Arians, as I recall.

OK, I'm fine with that. It's obvious the line has its problems, but as a unit I think they've been average, not awful. With just about any team, you basically have to replace at least one player on the offensive line every year, so you're constantly going to be in transition. We might be at a little bit of an awkward down point right now, but then again, even during the year we won the Super Bowl, I can't tell you how much complaining I heard about how awful the line was. We could be better there, but I don't think it's the end of the world.

And for the record, I may be one of the more vocal anti-Parker people, but I was still squawking about the running game last year when Willie was leading the league in rushing. In fact, someone would make a thread practically every week asking why we didn't use Davenport more often as a bruiser on short yardage.

Of course, back then, those arguments carried a lot less weight: Parker wasn't beat up like he is this year, and we could all eventually see that Davenport wasn't the answer because he runs like a girl. But it seems like the lack of a power game and the ability to catch passes out of the backfield have been hot topics around here for a while.

lilyoder6
12-08-2008, 12:51 PM
u can give credit to the defense that we play.. out of the top 16 def in the league we have played 8... we will again play the ravens who are 2nd and then the titans who are at 3rd...

i'm not saying our o-line is very good but at best u do have 2 look that we have been playing some rly good defenses this yr

stlrtruck
12-08-2008, 01:44 PM
It was just one game (while there have been a few this year), what the heck is wrong with you people?

The Steelers are 9-3, and they continue to find ways to win. What the heck do you want? The Colts offense? They go be a colts fan? Everyone should already know that no Steelers offense is designed to score 35+ points every game. And what should matter is that we won and we're still one game ahead in our division with our next opponent the team behind us!
I don't care if they win on 5 Jeff Reed FGs, just take care of business so that after 60 minutes the Steelers get the W. And yes, I hate games like yesterday's but they got it done.

THAT SHOULD BE ALL THAT MATTERS!

LambertIsGod58
12-08-2008, 01:47 PM
It was just one game (while there have been a few this year), what the heck is wrong with you people?

The Steelers are 9-3, and they continue to find ways to win. What the heck do you want? The Colts offense? They go be a colts fan? Everyone should already know that no Steelers offense is designed to score 35+ points every game. And what should matter is that we won and we're still one game ahead in our division with our next opponent the team behind us!
I don't care if they win on 5 Jeff Reed FGs, just take care of business so that after 60 minutes the Steelers get the W. And yes, I hate games like yesterday's but they got it done.

THAT SHOULD BE ALL THAT MATTERS!

Totally agree with all of this....This goes along with my point. Overall Ben is a good QB. Just not in an elite class. As you point out, it's not designed that way.

DarkRaven
12-08-2008, 01:52 PM
Thirteen games into the season boys and girls and it's time to tell it the way it is; This offense is not starting to gel, mesh, come together or get better in any way what so ever. And after 13 games, it is clear it won't do so at any point in this season. Roethlisberger's shoulder is not THAT hurt, Parker is not THAT injured, Washington does not drop THAT many passes and the o-line is not THAT miserable. This offense is just plain and simply awful. There is no consistency or fluidity, no rhyme or reason to what play is called at what point in time. The players, or at least the core of offensive players, may not be what top offense's are made of, but there is no way they are this miserable either. One or possibly more members of the coaching staff have to be responsible for what I call this offense which I call "The Nightmare" cause it just keeps getting worse and worse.

7 F#$%ing degrees outside and we have thrown the ball 18 times and rushed it only 11 times. 4 turnovers created by our defense and special teams, all 4 in the opponents territory and we walk away with 3 points? Reed is our 2008 offensive MVP as it stands right now and the other offensive players would be hard pressed to give him a run for his money with only 3 games to go.

We all need to start asking ourselves how far this defense can take us into the playoffs. The way they are playing right now? To the Superbowl at the very least.




You don't have to be a stellar offense to win games. As long as Ben manages the ball well and scores at least 14 pts. The Steelers will always be in the game. Why? The defense is sick and will keep things close as long as Ben doesn't turnover the ball. I hate to say this in a Steeler's forum, but it's the "Ravens 2000 blueprint" to the superbowl. Tampa Bay used it when they won the SB, and I think the Steelers will probably do the same thing.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:15 PM
John Kuhn would of been the center and he would of snapped the ball to himself and run it in for a TD lol

LOL

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 02:17 PM
lol, I knew you'd have something to say about davis after the game :sofunny:

This is the second time he does absolutely nothing at the goalline( jax playoff game)

kreider wouldn't have helped this team this season at all. he's done imo, but he as a great one

Kuhn would have gotten the TD though. ah, Kuhn..... :banging: Duke, you forgot the Indy game where Davis again did nothing at the goal line and the San Diego game where he got stuffed on 4th and short by the Chargers backup ILB.

On some short yardage plays this sunday, Arians went 3WR, single rb and ran behind Kemo, Starks and Hartwig after spreading out the Cowboys D. Great call. In short yardage and going 3TE with only Davis as a lead blocker.....its like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

I agree that Kreider may be done, but he is still a better blocker than either Davis or McHugh. Was it too much to ask that you spend a 6th round pick on Peyton Hillis instead of Mike Humpal??

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:18 PM
You don't have to be a stellar offense to win games. As long as Ben manages the ball well and scores at least 14 pts. The Steelers will always be in the game. Why? The defense is sick and will keep things close as long as Ben doesn't turnover the ball. I hate to say this in a Steeler's forum, but it's the "Ravens 2000 blueprint" to the superbowl. Tampa Bay used it when they won the SB, and I think the Steelers will probably do the same thing.

It was the Steelers blueprint before it became the Ravens blueprint, but thanks for the fair analysis. I agree with you. This defense will easily carry the team to the Superbowl and probably dismantle any NFC team as long as the offense doesn't LOSE the game for us with.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 02:20 PM
I hate to say this in a Steeler's forum, but it's the "Ravens 2000 blueprint" to the superbowl. .
The Ravens 2000 blueprint was that Billick was going to bring his high powered offense from Minnesota and score points to win. Thankfully for you its a good thing he drew that blueprint with crayola's.

Run the football and stop the run is pretty much the time honored key to success in the NFL. Cant do it without good blocking and a committment to the running game.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:23 PM
Yes, we do need to be able to convert on 3rd or 4th and short.....but we dont have the players for it. We dont have a legit FB, short yardage back and most of our Linemen are backups that are starting due to injury.

I think the Rams won a super bowl without a decent short yardage offense. They had Manumaleuna as a lead blocker for Marshall Faulk, so it can be done. I just think its unlikely, but hope it happens.

I agree we need the short yardage back. The Rams had one of the sickest passing offense's I've ever seen. Slant and screen passes of 10 yards or less and Bruce, Holt and even Hakim would take the 10 yard pass 80 yards for a TD.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:26 PM
The Ravens 2000 blueprint was that Billick was going to bring his high powered offense from Minnesota and score points to win. Thankfully for you its a good thing he drew that blueprint with crayola's.

lol..high powered offense. Can you imagine? And how long did they give that clown to "develop" that hight-powered offense?

That just gave me a horrible thought. What if they give Arian's just as long to develop his "creative" offensive scheme????

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:27 PM
Inconsistent running game
stop giving the ball to Parker.
Poor pass protection leading to too many sacks
stop giving the ball to Parker. They can pass-rush us all day because they don't respect our running game QB holding the ball too long, also leading to too many sacks
Frequently putting ourselves into 3rd and long situations
stop giving the ball to Parker.
Miserable 4th down conversion rate. We are last in the league. LAST!
stop giving the ball to Parker.
3rd and short conversion rate is also miserable.
stop giving the ball to Parker.

Finally someone else said and not me. Parker has become useless and has always been replaceable. Let Moore be #1 until he proves otherwise.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Parker has become useless and has always been replaceable. .

This is the kind of statement that fans make, but a good coach like Tomlin will almost never think. I believe Tomlin likes to give his players responsiblity, let them face challenges and work out of them like men. Its probably why they like playing for him.

He's gonna let Ike work thru his drops, let Colon work thu his pass protection, let Ben hold the football and take his shots and let FWP get healthy and prove he is a big time RB.

I also think he is gonna let Arians work thru the offensive struggles and have him back next season. Sorry, but I just got a feeling ........

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-08-2008, 02:39 PM
You can add me to the group that thinks it is obvious that Willie Parker is the problem. As I have mentioned, I thought he was a little overrated when healthy and now that he is not, there is no question that Moore should be starting and getting the bulk of the touches.

Against Dallas, Parker averaged 2 ypc and had 0 first downs. Moore averaged 4.4 ypc and had 4 of the Steelers 12 offensive first downs and Moore has the same OL as Parker, so that cancels out.

Every time Moore is in the game, the offense starts moving, see the 4th quarter vs Baltimore, the second half of Cincinnatti. And these are comparisons inside of games where Moore makes a big difference.

With a stellar defense, keeping the chains moving is almost more important than scoring points. Moore, at least right now, is outperforming Parker in every facet of the game. Suprising how he gets continually overlooked.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 02:59 PM
No I was not saying Bettis was a back up. Read the post again. I pointed out that the players you listed were backups and when given the chance they had one maybe two decent years and then back down to earth. Nice of you to answer the question on bettis only having one year where he had 1,500 yds or more. LOL, are you saying that Hank Aaron is not the best or top 5 players all time in baseball? That myfriend makes no sense! Sorry you did'nt understand the last sentence, but what I was trying to say is that RB'S are measured by their stats and those stats start with TOTAL YARDS which you pointed out means nothing to you. 2006 stats, 1494 yrds and 13 tds, I guess your right he is just a run of the mill rb. Respond if you like but the dabate is over in my mind, Paker is a very good back by todays standards and compared to the other backs you listed he is heads and shoulders above.


That's right, and that is all Willie is, he was a backup, given his chance, he had almost 3 full good years but it is right back down to earth and worse right now. He is not an elite running back and never was and is easily replaceable and as of right now Moore should be given the starting job until he proves otherwise.

I don't care if he broke his leg, he still didn't go over 1,500 and that broken leg might have been an indication of his current injury-prone body. Injuries are part of football unless the injury is a result of a blatantly dirty hit.

As far as Bettis never going over 1,500. Here is what I will say about Bettis, after every couple rush's, at least one defender either had to walk off the field or was very slow to get up. Bettis beat the defense down, he made them tired and caused them pain. It HURT them to stop Bettis more than it hurt Bettis to be stopped. His 1-3 yard rushes absolutely punished the defense physically and by the second half you could see the defense just starting to fall apart. Defense's ENJOY stopping guys like Parker. Parker is the one who suffers pain on the stops and defense's know that and they thrive off of it. Bettis would jump up smiling and strutting while the defenders had to help each other up after stopping him.

I said nothing about Hank Aaron, I meant on a year to year basis, not all time as far as RBI's went. And my example to you was Alex Rodriguez and his stat-padding stats that do nothing for the team.

paw-n-maul-u
12-08-2008, 03:05 PM
I believe that Willie Parker will not be a steeler next year. And I really hope that we get rid of him sooner rather than later because he seems like damaged goods.

At the very least, Moore is able to do all the things that parker does. On top of the fact that he is, A) better in blitz pick up ... B) catches the ball outta the backfield ... and C) He will come at a much cheaper price.

Couple with the fact that we just gave a boatload of money to our #1 pick from last year ... I just see willie being the odd man out. Let's just hope we can get some trade value in return, hoping it isn't too late already.

The salary cap is going to go up ... Starks, Smith are surely gone ... Possibly Simmons ... and if Parker, Washington, and maybe someone like a Foote or Townsend ... That right there is enough money to make a huge dive into FA and fix up the trenches on either side of the ball ....

couple THAT with a couple solid picks on the O and D-lines, we should be way better off than this year instantly.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 03:06 PM
and let FWP get healthy and prove he is a big time RB.

I also think he is gonna let Arians work thru the offensive struggles and have him back next season. Sorry, but I just got a feeling ........

If Parker is honestly not healthy (I personally think he is fine) then let him sit a couple games and let him get healthy AND THEN let him prove he is a big time RB. Letting him try to prove it if he is still supposedly injured is just wrong, to Parker and the team.

I hope you're wrong Gonzo but you I have a feeling you're right about Tomlin.

NYC SteelersFan
12-08-2008, 03:09 PM
I believe that Willie Parker will not be a steeler next year. And I really hope that we get rid of him sooner rather than later because he seems like damaged goods.

At the very least, Moore is able to do all the things that parker does. On top of the fact that he is, A) better in blitz pick up ... B) catches the ball outta the backfield ... and C) He will come at a much cheaper price.

The statement in Bold is a very very KEY factor in my opinion as well.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 03:10 PM
I believe that Willie Parker will not be a steeler next year. And I really hope that we get rid of him sooner rather than later because he seems like damaged goods.

At the very least, Moore is able to do all the things that parker does. On top of the fact that he is, A) better in blitz pick up ... B) catches the ball outta the backfield ... and C) He will come at a much cheaper price.

Couple with the fact that we just gave a boatload of money to our #1 pick from last year ... I just see willie being the odd man out. Let's just hope we can get some trade value in return, hoping it isn't too late already.

The salary cap is going to go up ... Starks, Smith are surely gone ... Possibly Simmons ... and if Parker, Washington, and maybe someone like a Foote or Townsend ... That right there is enough money to make a huge dive into FA and fix up the trenches on either side of the ball ....

couple THAT with a couple solid picks on the O and D-lines, we should be way better off than this year instantly.

Parker is still under contract next season. Expect Parker, Mendenhall, Moore to again be the rotation.

Also, name the last time the Steelers made a "huge dive into Free Agency".......its not gonna happen.

fansince'76
12-08-2008, 03:11 PM
Was it too much to ask that you spend a 6th round pick on Peyton Hillis instead of Mike Humpal??

Just got word from a Broncos fan here at work - Hillis is done for the year.

steelreserve
12-08-2008, 03:27 PM
He's gonna let Ike work thru his drops, let Colon work thu his pass protection, let Ben hold the football and take his shots and let FWP get healthy and prove he is a big time RB.

I sure hope not. Parker's already had his shot to prove he's a big-time RB, and the answer is: He's good but has obvious weaknesses. He's been the starter for three seasons and the same problems remain. You cannot run him on short yardage and you cannot count on him to catch passes. You can expect not only a sub-par game but an abysmal game against the elite teams. Now add "injury-prone" to the mix and tell me if this is the guy you want to build your offense around.

There's a difference between "proving yourself" and whatever is going on with Parker. We've already seen what Ben's capable of and we're waiting for him to break out of a slump. With a guy like Colon, you hope for improvement because you're betting his problems are due to inexperience. Parker, on the other hand, is pretty much a known quantity. If you wait and give him a chance to prove himself after he heals from injury, you're still not going to wind up with a franchise running back, because he was never a franchise running back to begin with.

The two crappy runs in a row near the Dallas goal line were pretty much emblematic of his shortcomings as a ballcarrier, and of the coaching staff's stubborn refusal to finally accept them. We should've been done trying that shit years ago. It was either Einstein or Benjamin Franklin who said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

MillerMania83
12-08-2008, 04:32 PM
Bring in Russell to get the first and goal. Take Russell out and two straight plays to Parker(who has done nothing all game). After a failed pass to Davis bring Russell back in on fourth when everyone knows he's getting the ball and he gets stuffed. Pathetic

Couldn't have said it any better myself....PERFECT example of the bs play calling and total bullsh!! decision making on who should be in the game to make the plays to get us in the end zone....LIKE I SAID PERFECT EXAMPLE, I sat watching the game just shaking my head thinking who in the heck is making the calls/decisions.....PATHETIC is a prefect way to descibe it.

DarkRaven
12-08-2008, 04:46 PM
It was the Steelers blueprint before it became the Ravens blueprint, but thanks for the fair analysis. I agree with you. This defense will easily carry the team to the Superbowl and probably dismantle any NFC team as long as the offense doesn't LOSE the game for us with.

Well, sometimes you just gotta give another team credit. Sorry that you can't see pass your yellow glasses

DarkRaven
12-08-2008, 04:52 PM
The Ravens 2000 blueprint was that Billick was going to bring his high powered offense from Minnesota and score points to win. Thankfully for you its a good thing he drew that blueprint with crayola's.

Run the football and stop the run is pretty much the time honored key to success in the NFL. Cant do it without good blocking and a committment to the running game.

Well, no need to talk about offense with me bro. Have you checked the stats lately? The Steelers aren't necessarily blowing up the world in total offense. Even the Ravens are ranking higher offensively. Soooooo.....your point???

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 04:55 PM
I sure hope not. Parker's already had his shot to prove he's a big-time RB, and the answer is: He's good but has obvious weaknesses. He's been the starter for three seasons and the same problems remain. You cannot run him on short yardage and you cannot count on him to catch passes. You can expect not only a sub-par game but an abysmal game against the elite teams. Now add "injury-prone" to the mix and tell me if this is the guy you want to build your offense around.

There's a difference between "proving yourself" and whatever is going on with Parker. We've already seen what Ben's capable of and we're waiting for him to break out of a slump. With a guy like Colon, you hope for improvement because you're betting his problems are due to inexperience. Parker, on the other hand, is pretty much a known quantity. If you wait and give him a chance to prove himself after he heals from injury, you're still not going to wind up with a franchise running back, because he was never a franchise running back to begin with.

The two crappy runs in a row near the Dallas goal line were pretty much emblematic of his shortcomings as a ballcarrier, and of the coaching staff's stubborn refusal to finally accept them. We should've been done trying that shit years ago. It was either Einstein or Benjamin Franklin who said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
First of all, Parker has been the starter for 4 seasons, not 3. Three of those were consecutive 1200 yard seasons that also added 72 receptions for over 600 more yards. I guess 3 straight years isnt "proving yourself"

Second, if you believe that a QB is in a "slump" then you probably have never played, coached or been around QB's. Its not like baseball or golf when you are gripping too tight or getting in your head. Its about practice, repetition, studying the defenses and mentally rehearsing how to execute the game plan. Ben is fine and Tomlin will let him work thru it, not play Lefty like the knee jerkers will calling for Colts week.

Colon, has mental breakdowns of technique and is disadvantaged by his short arms in pass protection, but Tomlin allows him to battle in pass pro, because he is a good run blocker.

I have no clue where you stand, but I bet you are in the camp of "we need a big RB". Thats just my guess. The secret has been out in the NFL for at least 5 years now, you need more than 1 RB and you dont need to build an offense around 1 RB. As for 2 "emblematic " short runs at the goalline, I didnt see the great Gary Russell get anything but -2 yards on 4th and 1. Its a function of getting no push on the O line and no help from your FB.

If they chose to use Mendenhall and Moore earlier in the season, Parker might not have been injured and we would still have some good healthy backs avaialable. All the talk this preseason was "not running the tires off Willie" and a "pony backfield" ......but we never saw either of those things. I think both were good ideas, but just a smokescreen for same as '07.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 05:01 PM
Well, no need to talk about offense with me bro. Have you checked the stats lately? The Steelers aren't necessarily blowing up the world in total offense. Even the Ravens are ranking higher offensively. Soooooo.....your point???

My point is that the Raven fans and pundits like to talk of the 2000 Ravens like it was planned that we are gonna win with Defense and winning close games. The truth is that Brian Billick was heralded as a guy that engineered the highest scoring team in history and was just the benifactor of Moss, Carter, Culpepper and a lousy defense in Minnesota. He won in spite of his lousy blueprint, not because of it.

If you had hired just about anybody else, you might have another Lombardi in Baltimore to go with 2000.

cubanstogie
12-08-2008, 05:10 PM
Couldn't have said it any better myself....PERFECT example of the bs play calling and total bullsh!! decision making on who should be in the game to make the plays to get us in the end zone....LIKE I SAID PERFECT EXAMPLE, I sat watching the game just shaking my head thinking who in the heck is making the calls/decisions.....PATHETIC is a prefect way to descibe it.

when its 3rd and goal at 1 there are only so many options. Fade route, run up gut, play action hit TE, or RB in flat. Is Arians really supposed to outsmart the Defense or should we execute by getting a push and run it in. We are limited by our O-line. Now I am by no means a fan of Arians but we were putting up points last year. Is he really the problem we have been stuffed at goal line last few games. Davis didn't get in end zone on his reception, so later in game Miller gets it. Does Arians get credit for that call? I do think we need to start Ravens game with no huddle, we won't run on them and I don't want get in the 3 and out rut. Is that a Tomlin or Arians decision?

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 05:17 PM
I do think we need to start Ravens game with no huddle, we won't run on them and I don't want get in the 3 and out rut. Is that a Tomlin or Arians decision? It would be collective in team meetings as they gameplan for this week. One of them would suggest it and then decide. Ultimately it would be the head coaches decision to say yes or no, but judging from what Tomlin says, I think he trusts his OC to do the job and create a gameplan.

I agree with you there is so much that can be done on goal line plays. What I dont get is why we never seem to go play action to the TE's like Miller or Spaeth down there while teams are selling out to stop the run on us. Carey Davis is a waste of a roster spot and a terrible option on the goal line.

43Hitman
12-08-2008, 05:24 PM
It would be collective in team meetings as they gameplan for this week. One of them would suggest it and then decide. Ultimately it would be the head coaches decision to say yes or no, but judging from what Tomlin says, I think he trusts his OC to do the job and create a gameplan.

I agree with you there is so much that can be done on goal line plays. What I dont get is why we never seem to go play action to the TE's like Miller or Spaeth down there while teams are selling out to stop the run on us. Carey Davis is a waste of a roster spot and a terrible option on the goal line.

Last year we were killing teams with those plays at the goal-line. Spaeth had like 6 TD's down there. I would like to see a fade route every now and then to Nate also. Bottom line is we really just need more consistent running game.

steelreserve
12-08-2008, 05:46 PM
I have no clue where you stand, but I bet you are in the camp of "we need a big RB". Thats just my guess. The secret has been out in the NFL for at least 5 years now, you need more than 1 RB and you dont need to build an offense around 1 RB. As for 2 "emblematic " short runs at the goalline, I didnt see the great Gary Russell get anything but -2 yards on 4th and 1. Its a function of getting no push on the O line and no help from your FB.

If they chose to use Mendenhall and Moore earlier in the season, Parker might not have been injured and we would still have some good healthy backs avaialable. All the talk this preseason was "not running the tires off Willie" and a "pony backfield" ......but we never saw either of those things. I think both were good ideas, but just a smokescreen for same as '07.

I'm definitely in the camp of "we need a big RB" or at least a powerful RB. Not necessarily as the ONLY running back, but we are sorely lacking that dimension. Who knows whether Russell is the answer, but he's generally had more success than anyone else we've tried in the bruiser role for a few years. We know Parker definitely isn't the guy for that, so we should stop trying to use him like he is.

I also agree using multiple RBs is better than just one guy all the time. That's one of my biggest gripes about the Parker-only offense that we've had ever since the retirement of Bettis. If you mix things up, defenses can't just stack themselves up to capitalize on your main back's shortcomings. That's what absolutely KILLS us when we're Parker-only -- he has weaknesses, and it's easy to see what they are and defend against them.

I don't think you absolutely NEED a two-back system to be successful, but it's pretty rare to find a back who's that complete. If you've got a guy who can run with great speed, great power, knows how to block and catches the ball well, you'll be fine with one RB -- but you probably need to have one of the best backs in the game.

Here in the real world, we don't have a guy like that, so we just need to be smarter about using the right people in the right situations. Let's face it -- 1st-and-goal from the 6 was not the right situation to run Parker up the middle, and neither was 2nd-and-goal from the 4. But too often, if I say "Parker has too many weaknesses to be the main back in every game," people confuse it with "Russell should get 80% of the carries and no one else should play."

Mainly, the issue is that when Parker has a game like last night -- and he has a lot of them, or I wouldn't be complaining this much -- the coaches need to realize that IN THE FIRST QUARTER and kick his ass down to last on the depth chart for the rest of the game. When he's going to get stuffed all game, you can pretty much see it right away.

stillers4me
12-08-2008, 06:01 PM
I'm definitely in the camp of "we need a big RB" or at least a powerful RB.

Is everybody forgetting that we have a first round draft pick mending a broken shoulder thanks to Ray-Ray?

Give Mendenhall a chance to actually make a name for himself next year.

realdeal
12-08-2008, 07:58 PM
Our offense is starting to remind me of the Korky years. Can we win come January with this offense? We are last in the league on 4th and 1. Let's bring back fat boy!:laughing:

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 09:38 PM
Here in the real world, we don't have a guy like that, so we just need to be smarter about using the right people in the right situations. Let's face it -- 1st-and-goal from the 6 was not the right situation to run Parker up the middle, and neither was 2nd-and-goal from the 4. But too often, if I say "Parker has too many weaknesses to be the main back in every game," people confuse it with "Russell should get 80% of the carries and no one else should play."

Mainly, the issue is that when Parker has a game like last night -- and he has a lot of them, or I wouldn't be complaining this much -- the coaches need to realize that IN THE FIRST QUARTER and kick his ass down to last on the depth chart for the rest of the game. When he's going to get stuffed all game, you can pretty much see it right away.

Sorry, but in this world I live in, which I think you are implying is not "the real world", I have no problem giving a Pro Bowl running back with 3 consecutive 1200 plus yard seasons the football on first and goal from the 6. Apparantly, professional football coaches don't have that problem either.

Also, in this world that is not real......I would prefer that you give your players the opportunity to make plays and not banish them to the bench as a result of a couple bad plays. Is that something that you think works?? Its not something that great coaches like Chuck Noll would do.

I know, in this non real world, Barry Sanders was a hall of famer despite being tackled for little or no gain rather often while Willie Parker's long runs dont count for yardage. I know....we need TJ Duckett, Ron Dayne, Michael Bush or some other large, nonproductive RB.......because its Pittsburgh :rolleyes:

TheWarDen86
12-08-2008, 09:44 PM
....I bet you are in the camp of "we need a big RB". Thats just my guess.

Not to get OT, but did anyone here Mike Ditka on "Mike and Mike" this morning?

He said (paraphrasing) "everybody thinks you need to have a big back, and that's just not true. Not true at all."

I laughed my azz off! Um Mike, then what was that whole "Fridge" thing about? :rofl:

Just thought I'd share...

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-08-2008, 10:03 PM
Not to get OT, but did anyone here Mike Ditka on "Mike and Mike" this morning?

He said (paraphrasing) "everybody thinks you need to have a big back, and that's just not true. Not true at all."

I laughed my azz off! Um Mike, then what was that whole "Fridge" thing about? :rofl:



That's cool !!! Its like I heard John Fox say in todays pregame on Westwood1....."this time of year all you guys are looking at wins and losses, while we are looking at film. "

Ditka is so right. You dont hear him badmouthing guys like Walter Payton, Tony Dorsett, Tomlinson, etc because they were not big bruisers.

The Fridge thing Ditka explained once. He said the NFL is a game where it all comes around. A couple years before '85 the 49ers put in Guy McIntyre, a backup OG, in as a lead blocker when the 49ers were blowing out the Bears. Ditka always thought that was disrespectful and when they played the 49ers and had them down, he put in William Perry to score a TD, rub it in and let Bill Walsh know that you reap what you sow. Ditka is awesome!!!!!

Steeldude
12-09-2008, 12:24 AM
no O-line = no running game.

it doesn't matter who the RB(excluding barry sanders) is going to be. if there are no holes, then it's no yards.

bettis wouldn't be doing much behind this sorry line either. rarely did i see bettis breaking tackles in the backfield.

do i think parker is a great RB? no, but he is serviceable. IMO, i feel moore is the better option at this point.

what really needs to be done here is for the O-line to be injected with some talent and to fire zierlein :smile:

and for those of you who think mendenahall is the answer, i have only one thing to say "lmao". i really can't see mendenhall breaking tackles. he is more of a scatback, IMO.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 12:36 AM
First of all, Parker has been the starter for 4 seasons, not 3. Three of those were consecutive 1200 yard seasons that also added 72 receptions for over 600 more yards. I guess 3 straight years isnt "proving yourself"

The secret has been out in the NFL for at least 5 years now, you need more than 1 RB and you dont need to build an offense around 1 RB. As for 2 "emblematic " short runs at the goalline, I didnt see the great Gary Russell get anything but -2 yards on 4th and 1. Its a function of getting no push on the O line and no help from your FB.

3 straight years is proving you are capable of allowing yourself to become a product fo the second best rush scheme in football. It in no way proves that Parker is elite or irreplaceable. And at this point he has proves injury prone and weak. If we ended up running him dead, that is his problem, not mine. He got his ring and more money than anyone in this forum will make in their life time. I don't owe Parker anything. If he can't hack it anymore, their are plenty of others out there waiting to take over and "prove" themselves.

The secret is more of a money management/savings technique. No more premiere backs means no more big contracts. If they could get away with splitting QB's they would also just to pay these guys less. The Quarterback manages the system, the RB plays within it, you can plug and play RB's, you can't QB's.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 12:51 AM
bettis wouldn't be doing much behind this sorry line either. rarely did i see bettis breaking tackles in the backfield.

But he would hurt the defense. It would pain the defense to bring him down. He would physically punish the defense, wear them down and at some point in the game the defense would usually just collapse as a result of Bettis' strength taking its toll on them. Bettis would jump up dancing after he would get tackled and the defenders would be helping each other up. They did not look forward to Bettis running into them. They enjoy tackling Parker with ease.

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 01:04 AM
Sorry, but in this world I live in, which I think you are implying is not "the real world", I have no problem giving a Pro Bowl running back with 3 consecutive 1200 plus yard seasons the football on first and goal from the 6. Apparantly, professional football coaches don't have that problem either.

Also, in this world that is not real......I would prefer that you give your players the opportunity to make plays and not banish them to the bench as a result of a couple bad plays. Is that something that you think works?? Its not something that great coaches like Chuck Noll would do.

I know, in this non real world, Barry Sanders was a hall of famer despite being tackled for little or no gain rather often while Willie Parker's long runs dont count for yardage. I know....we need TJ Duckett, Ron Dayne, Michael Bush or some other large, nonproductive RB.......because its Pittsburgh :rolleyes:

OK, first of all, I didn't mean YOU were in a fantasy world, I meant that from where our team stands now, we don't have anyone on the roster who can be an all-in-one, game-changing RB like Payton or Sanders or LT, or even like Bettis or Christian Okoye. And in the short term, it would basically be a pipe dream to get someone like that. That's all.

And if it's not clear by now, I think Parker's shortcomings are anything but "a couple of bad plays." He's proven over a stretch of several years that he cannot be counted on in short yardage -- and that from game to game, he's streaky as f*ck. He'll have a couple of 100-yard efforts against the Bengals and the Browns and everyone will say "see, I told you he's good" ... and then he'll go right out and drop a stink bomb of a game like he did this weekend.

Again -- and this is a very important distinction -- I'm not getting mad at Parker for having one bad game. He has at least four or five outings like this a year, usually against the elite teams in important games. His "bad" games are so awful, we're very lucky if we don't lose every time. I don't care how many yards you gain over the course of the season -- putting your team in serious jeopardy of losing in close to a third of the games you play is completely unacceptable over the long term from your "franchise" running back.

It's not always the line's fault, and you know what's really ironic? The ONE play that was the line's fault on that goal-line stand was the 4th-and-1 with Russell. It was not the line's fault on the two plays Parker was in. Yet you blame the line for the whole thing and call Russell a bum. You cannot be serious with that garbage. It doesn't matter how many yards Parker gained last season, he was without a doubt the wrong guy to hand the ball to on first-and-goal. That's based on probably a hundred times I've seen a piss-poor result from him when he tries to fill the bruiser's role, whether it was with this OL or the Super Bowl OL.

Do we need a big, lumbering halfback, someone like TJ Duckett or Michael Bush? You're damn right we do. The jury is still out on Russell, and aside from him, we've proven completely inept at short yardage.

Now, do we need that big, lumbering player to be the feature back on every down? Absolutely not. But we need to have him. And when Parker's having one of his stink bombs, we need to get him out of there. Moore is every bit as capable of hitting the holes and breaking the medium-to-long runs. There is no upside to Parker whatsoever if you ask me, unless it's to give a breather to one of the real running backs.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 01:13 AM
OK, first of all, I didn't mean YOU were in a fantasy world, I meant that from where our team stands now, we don't have anyone on the roster who can be an all-in-one, game-changing RB like Payton or Sanders or LT, or even like Bettis or Christian Okoye. And in the short term, it would basically be a pipe dream to get someone like that. That's all.

And if it's not clear by now, I think Parker's shortcomings are anything but "a couple of bad plays." He's proven over a stretch of several years that he cannot be counted on in short yardage -- and that from game to game, he's streaky as f*ck. He'll have a couple of 100-yard efforts against the Bengals and the Browns and everyone will say "see, I told you he's good" ... and then he'll go right out and drop a stink bomb of a game like he did this weekend.

Again -- and this is a very important distinction -- I'm not getting mad at Parker for having one bad game. He has at least four or five outings like this a year, usually against the elite teams in important games. His "bad" games are so awful, we're very lucky if we don't lose every time. I don't care how many yards you gain over the course of the season -- putting your team in serious jeopardy of losing in close to a third of the games you play is completely unacceptable over the long term from your "franchise" running back.

It's not always the line's fault, and you know what's really ironic? The ONE play that was the line's fault on that goal-line stand was the 4th-and-1 with Russell. It was not the line's fault on the two plays Parker was in. Yet you blame the line for the whole thing and call Russell a bum. You cannot be serious with that garbage. It doesn't matter how many yards Parker gained last season, he was without a doubt the wrong guy to hand the ball to on first-and-goal. That's based on probably a hundred times I've seen a piss-poor result from him when he tries to fill the bruiser's role, whether it was with this OL or the Super Bowl OL.

Do we need a big, lumbering halfback, someone like TJ Duckett or Michael Bush? You're damn right we do. The jury is still out on Russell, and aside from him, we've proven completely inept at short yardage.

Now, do we need that big, lumbering player to be the feature back on every down? Absolutely not. But we need to have him. And when Parker's having one of his stink bombs, we need to get him out of there. Moore is every bit as capable of hitting the holes and breaking the medium-to-long runs. There is no upside to Parker whatsoever if you ask me, unless it's to give a breather to one of the real running backs.

I'm with you 100% and agree with every statement you made in this post.

augustashark
12-09-2008, 02:56 AM
OK, first of all, I didn't mean YOU were in a fantasy world, I meant that from where our team stands now, we don't have anyone on the roster who can be an all-in-one, game-changing RB like Payton or Sanders or LT, or even like Bettis or Christian Okoye. And in the short term, it would basically be a pipe dream to get someone like that. That's all.

And if it's not clear by now, I think Parker's shortcomings are anything but "a couple of bad plays." He's proven over a stretch of several years that he cannot be counted on in short yardage -- and that from game to game, he's streaky as f*ck. He'll have a couple of 100-yard efforts against the Bengals and the Browns and everyone will say "see, I told you he's good" ... and then he'll go right out and drop a stink bomb of a game like he did this weekend.

Again -- and this is a very important distinction -- I'm not getting mad at Parker for having one bad game. He has at least four or five outings like this a year, usually against the elite teams in important games. His "bad" games are so awful, we're very lucky if we don't lose every time. I don't care how many yards you gain over the course of the season -- putting your team in serious jeopardy of losing in close to a third of the games you play is completely unacceptable over the long term from your "franchise" running back.

It's not always the line's fault, and you know what's really ironic? The ONE play that was the line's fault on that goal-line stand was the 4th-and-1 with Russell. It was not the line's fault on the two plays Parker was in. Yet you blame the line for the whole thing and call Russell a bum. You cannot be serious with that garbage. It doesn't matter how many yards Parker gained last season, he was without a doubt the wrong guy to hand the ball to on first-and-goal. That's based on probably a hundred times I've seen a piss-poor result from him when he tries to fill the bruiser's role, whether it was with this OL or the Super Bowl OL.

Do we need a big, lumbering halfback, someone like TJ Duckett or Michael Bush? You're damn right we do. The jury is still out on Russell, and aside from him, we've proven completely inept at short yardage.

Now, do we need that big, lumbering player to be the feature back on every down? Absolutely not. But we need to have him. And when Parker's having one of his stink bombs, we need to get him out of there. Moore is every bit as capable of hitting the holes and breaking the medium-to-long runs. There is no upside to Parker whatsoever if you ask me, unless it's to give a breather to one of the real running backs.

How can anyone take you serious when you mention four HOF'S and then put in some BUM that does'nt even come close to the others. Well done.:hatsoff:

augustashark
12-09-2008, 03:01 AM
I'm with you 100% and agree with every statement you made in this post.

I'm sure you would:chuckle:

Oh I forgot Bettis hurt guys on the other team, BUT he only gained 1,500 yards one time.

I really don't want to lable you, but I think your on the way to be that poster that will post so many contradictions on this board that it will catch up with you. Like, you aint no damn good unless you gain 1500 yards every season. Then it's pointed out to you that your fav RB only did it once, then it is, well he hurts the guys on the other team. :noidea:

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 09:47 AM
OK, first of all, I didn't mean YOU were in a fantasy world, I meant that from where our team stands now, we don't have anyone on the roster who can be an all-in-one, game-changing RB like Payton or Sanders or LT, or even like Bettis or Christian Okoye. And in the short term, it would basically be a pipe dream to get someone like that. That's all.

And if it's not clear by now, I think Parker's shortcomings are anything but "a couple of bad plays." He's proven over a stretch of several years that he cannot be counted on in short yardage -- and that from game to game, he's streaky as f*ck. He'll have a couple of 100-yard efforts against the Bengals and the Browns and everyone will say "see, I told you he's good" ... and then he'll go right out and drop a stink bomb of a game like he did this weekend.

Again -- and this is a very important distinction -- I'm not getting mad at Parker for having one bad game. He has at least four or five outings like this a year, usually against the elite teams in important games. His "bad" games are so awful, we're very lucky if we don't lose every time. I don't care how many yards you gain over the course of the season -- putting your team in serious jeopardy of losing in close to a third of the games you play is completely unacceptable over the long term from your "franchise" running back.

It's not always the line's fault, and you know what's really ironic? The ONE play that was the line's fault on that goal-line stand was the 4th-and-1 with Russell. It was not the line's fault on the two plays Parker was in. Yet you blame the line for the whole thing and call Russell a bum. You cannot be serious with that garbage. It doesn't matter how many yards Parker gained last season, he was without a doubt the wrong guy to hand the ball to on first-and-goal. That's based on probably a hundred times I've seen a piss-poor result from him when he tries to fill the bruiser's role, whether it was with this OL or the Super Bowl OL.

Do we need a big, lumbering halfback, someone like TJ Duckett or Michael Bush? You're damn right we do. The jury is still out on Russell, and aside from him, we've proven completely inept at short yardage.

Now, do we need that big, lumbering player to be the feature back on every down? Absolutely not. But we need to have him. And when Parker's having one of his stink bombs, we need to get him out of there. Moore is every bit as capable of hitting the holes and breaking the medium-to-long runs. There is no upside to Parker whatsoever if you ask me, unless it's to give a breather to one of the real running backs.

I never Called Russell a bum.
I never blamed the line. Actually if you read any of my posts you will find that I think the line is not as bad as they get blamed.
You had your big lumbering back in Davenport last year and he was terrible in short yardage.
You fail to understand, that behind a O line that is executing well and a good blocking FB, that just about anybody can grind out the yards, even marginal backs like Erric Peagram and Bam Morris, not to mention current guys like Portis, Warrick Dunn, Westbrook, Tomlinson, Thomas Jones and yes....Willie Parker.

It never hurts to have too many good RB's. Take a look at the Chiefs, they have L.J and have run the wheels off him with nobody else as a decent replacement. Your hate of Parker seems single minded and irrational. Coaches want guys with skills like his, we just lack the complimentary back in Mendenhall, otherwise they would be a similar tandem to Chris Johnson and LenDale White.

Just accept the fact that he will be here next season and playing out his contract, then be replaced by Mendenhall and another rookie in 2010.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 10:03 AM
I'm sure you would:chuckle:

Oh I forgot Bettis hurt guys on the other team, BUT he only gained 1,500 yards one time.

I really don't want to lable you, but I think your on the way to be that poster that will post so many contradictions on this board that it will catch up with you. Like, you aint no damn good unless you gain 1500 yards every season. Then it's pointed out to you that your fav RB only did it once, then it is, well he hurts the guys on the other team. :noidea:

You're starting to get on my nerves because you take things I say out of context and mince words from my posts. Copy and paste the quote where I said "You ain't no damn good unless you gain 1,500 yards". And also copy and paste where I said "Bettis is my favorite running back". Please copy and paste it but don't put words in my mouth to try and prove your point.

LambertIsGod58
12-09-2008, 10:10 AM
You're starting to get on my nerves because you take things I say out of context and mince words from my posts. Copy and paste the quote where I said "You ain't no damn good unless you gain 1,500 yards". And also copy and paste where I said "Bettis is my favorite running back". Please copy and paste it but don't put words in my mouth to try and prove your point.


you don't like it when it's done to you? Me either. At least the putting words in my mouth.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 10:13 AM
Total yards are meaningless, I'm sorry if you don't know how to debate that. Mike Anderson, Reuben Droughns, Tatum Bell, Chester Taylor, Ladell Betts, Michael Vick, LaMont Jordan, all these guys have gone over 1,000 yards over the last 3 years, where are they now? Except for Vick, which is obvious where he is. Do you know how many players go over 1,000 yards every season, nearly half the league. It's just not a big deal. Now going over 1,500 yards, then it's a big deal regardless of average, cause even if the average is low he still deserves some credit for being a horse. Mewelde Moore would easily finish the season with 1,000+ yards had he not been splitting carries. How good is Mewelde Moore?


I'm sure you would:chuckle:

Oh I forgot Bettis hurt guys on the other team, BUT he only gained 1,500 yards one time.

I really don't want to lable you, but I think your on the way to be that poster that will post so many contradictions on this board that it will catch up with you. Like, you aint no damn good unless you gain 1500 yards every season. Then it's pointed out to you that your fav RB only did it once, then it is, well he hurts the guys on the other team. :noidea:

Do you see a difference between the two statements? If you do, stop summarizing things I say in my posts incorrectly. If you don't see a difference between the two statements then just don't respond to me because something is wrong with you.

Crow-Magnon
12-09-2008, 10:16 AM
I sincerely hope there is this much turmoil in the Steelers locker room! :rofl:

LambertIsGod58
12-09-2008, 10:16 AM
Do you see a difference between the two statements? If you do, stop summarizing things I say in my posts incorrectly. If you don't see a difference between the two statements then just don't respond to me because something is wrong with you.


I agree NYC....I wish people would stop this nonsense.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 10:18 AM
you don't like it when it's done to you? Me either. At least the putting words in my mouth.

I answer your posts directly buddy, you said Roethlisberger is overpaid, I countered. You said he is over-rated/hyped, I countered. You said he isn't a top 5 quarterback, I countered. Never took anything you said out of context or minced your words buddy. Take that up with whoever actually did Lambert.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 10:20 AM
I sincerely hope there is this much turmoil in the Steelers locker room! :rofl:

Like I said in another post Crow, I hope the defense gang-raped the offense in the locker rooms after the game Sunday.

LambertIsGod58
12-09-2008, 10:21 AM
I answer your posts directly buddy, you said Roethlisberger is overpaid, I countered. You said he is over-rated/hyped, I countered. You said he isn't a top 5 quarterback, I countered. Never took anything you said out of context or minced your words buddy. Take that up with whoever actually did Lambert.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, I've come to respect your opinion. Whether or not I agree with it is a different story. But your football knowledge is there. And I was making this post in agreement. You haven't put words in my mouth. But I'm seeing quite a bit lately and it's happening to more people than me.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 10:30 AM
Whether you choose to believe it or not, I've come to respect your opinion. Whether or not I agree with it is a different story. But your football knowledge is there. And I was making this post in agreement. You haven't put words in my mouth. But I'm seeing quite a bit lately and it's happening to more people than me.

I respect yours also even though I definitely don't agree with it either. You stand up for what you think regardless of whether or not is 50 to 1. I'll always argue respectfully with you with.

Just do what I do, multi-quote what you actually said along with what he said you said so everyone can see the difference.

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 11:04 AM
How can anyone take you serious when you mention four HOF'S and then put in some BUM that does'nt even come close to the others. Well done.:hatsoff:

Pretty much anyone who wasn't ignoring the overall point in order to pick a fight would take that seriously.

No, Okoye wasn't nearly as good as the other backs I mentioned. But was he a game-changing runner? You bet.

Point is, there are very few big, punishing runners that can be a legitimate "main" every-down back in an offense. Bettis was one, Okoye was another, but most of them are role players. That's what irks me when I say we need a power runner -- the people who say "OMG U JUST WANT A BIG SLOW GUY WHOS NOT GOOD ENOUGH 2 PLAY EVERY DOWN U JUST WANT HIM BC HES BIG!111!! WHY NOT JUST GET A BIG SLO GUY LIEK TJ DUCKETT AND MAKE HIM TEH STARTER IS THAT WHAT U WANT???? HELL NEVER MAKE IT!!!11"

Basically, that's not even remotely close to what I -- or most people -- are suggesting when we say the team needs a power runner. But the instant you say Parker isn't a good power runner, other people start putting words in your mouth, and all of a sudden T.J. Duckett is our new every-down back. I don't get it.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-09-2008, 11:19 AM
I never Called Russell a bum.
I never blamed the line. Actually if you read any of my posts you will find that I think the line is not as bad as they get blamed.
You had your big lumbering back in Davenport last year and he was terrible in short yardage.
You fail to understand, that behind a O line that is executing well and a good blocking FB, that just about anybody can grind out the yards, even marginal backs like Erric Peagram and Bam Morris, not to mention current guys like Portis, Warrick Dunn, Westbrook, Tomlinson, Thomas Jones and yes....Willie Parker.

It never hurts to have too many good RB's. Take a look at the Chiefs, they have L.J and have run the wheels off him with nobody else as a decent replacement. Your hate of Parker seems single minded and irrational. Coaches want guys with skills like his, we just lack the complimentary back in Mendenhall, otherwise they would be a similar tandem to Chris Johnson and LenDale White.

Just accept the fact that he will be here next season and playing out his contract, then be replaced by Mendenhall and another rookie in 2010. Huh?

I am confused. Moore has gotten 10+ touches in seven games and is averaging 96 yards from scrimmage in those games and somehow doesnt enter into your discussion of RBs the Steelers currently have?

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 11:21 AM
Pretty much anyone who wasn't ignoring the overall point in order to pick a fight would take that seriously.

No, Okoye wasn't nearly as good as the other backs I mentioned. But was he a game-changing runner? You bet.

Point is, there are very few big, punishing runners that can be a legitimate "main" every-down back in an offense. Bettis was one, Okoye was another, but most of them are role players. That's what irks me when I say we need a power runner -- the people who say "OMG U JUST WANT A BIG SLOW GUY WHOS NOT GOOD ENOUGH 2 PLAY EVERY DOWN U JUST WANT HIM BC HES BIG!111!! WHY NOT JUST GET A BIG SLO GUY LIEK TJ DUCKETT AND MAKE HIM TEH STARTER IS THAT WHAT U WANT???? HELL NEVER MAKE IT!!!11"

Basically, that's not even remotely close to what I -- or most people -- are suggesting when we say the team needs a power runner. But the instant you say Parker isn't a good power runner, other people start putting words in your mouth, and all of a sudden T.J. Duckett is our new every-down back. I don't get it.

There are some fans who are so fanatic about the team that it causes them to be subjective, biased and unreasonable when having a discussion in regards to the team. They are the people who say;

-The offensive line is getting better every week
-Bruce Arian's calls the right plays, the players just don't execute
-Roethlisberger does not hold onto the ball for too long and if he does, it's fine
-Willie Parker has been an elite, premiere back and should remain the #1 starter
-The offense is coming together
-The offense is balanced
-There is nothing wrong with being ranked 23rd in rushing offense
-Troy Polamalu is a human being

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 11:38 AM
I never Called Russell a bum.
I never blamed the line. Actually if you read any of my posts you will find that I think the line is not as bad as they get blamed.
You had your big lumbering back in Davenport last year and he was terrible in short yardage.

I know. That's why we need a big lumbering back who's actually ... you know ... GOOD. They're not all the same as Davenport. And to tell you the truth, it doesn't really matter if he's big and lumbering as long as he gets the job done in short yardage. Show me a 5'3", 150-pound guy who can break tackles and move the pile, and I'll say put him in there on 2nd-and-1. It just seems like the more likely candidate is a big guy.

I guess it wasn't you who called Russell a bum or blamed the line for everything, although I've definitely heard quite a bit of that overall. Sorry if I misdirected the response to that at you, but there are definitely other people in this debate who that applies to.

You fail to understand, that behind a O line that is executing well and a good blocking FB, that just about anybody can grind out the yards, even marginal backs like Erric Peagram and Bam Morris, not to mention current guys like Portis, Warrick Dunn, Westbrook, Tomlinson, Thomas Jones and yes....Willie Parker.

The thing is, Parker's had the same exact problems with a good OL and the current mediocre OL, and he's had the same exact problems with and without a good FB. Yes, anyone can get the yards behind a good offensive line, but Parker has different strengths and weaknesses than most other backs. Granted, he has more strengths than weaknesses, but if he's the only RB, those weaknesses absolutely murder us at crucial times.

It never hurts to have too many good RB's. Take a look at the Chiefs, they have L.J and have run the wheels off him with nobody else as a decent replacement. Your hate of Parker seems single minded and irrational. Coaches want guys with skills like his, we just lack the complimentary back in Mendenhall, otherwise they would be a similar tandem to Chris Johnson and LenDale White.

Just accept the fact that he will be here next season and playing out his contract, then be replaced by Mendenhall and another rookie in 2010.

Again -- this is like the tenth time I've told this to someone -- it's not so much Parker as the stubborn Parker-only offense that hurts us. Sure, he's perfectly capable of contributing. But we cannot, cannot continue to stick with him in games like Sunday's. Willie's bad games are a special kind of bad, and the bottom line is, Moore should have had far more than five carries once it became obvious what was happening. If we do the same shit against the Ravens, they'll eat our lunch.

Believe me, 2010 can't come soon enough.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 11:44 AM
Huh?

I am confused. Moore has gotten 10+ touches in seven games and is averaging 96 yards from scrimmage in those games and somehow doesnt enter into your discussion of RBs the Steelers currently have?

The key word was "complimentary" running back. I'm talking about a stronger, more powerful runner to compliment the smaller, faster Parker. Moore is neither a powerful back, nor a guy with breakaway speed. He is really a 3rd down back and a guy that is an all around good football player. Please read more of the thread.

Here is what I said back when he was signed. I didn't become a Moore bandwagon jumper, nor am I dillusional enough to think he should be our regular starting RB.

I love the pickup too!! Moore runs hard and the return/receiving value is a big plus as well. Not a big guy, but always seems to finish runs falling forward, unlike Davenport who sometimes stops moving and tries to dance to a hole. http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=23857&page=4

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 11:56 AM
I know. That's why we need a big lumbering back who's actually ... you know ... GOOD. They're not all the same as Davenport. And to tell you the truth, it doesn't really matter if he's big and lumbering as long as he gets the job done in short yardage. Show me a 5'3", 150-pound guy who can break tackles and move the pile, and I'll say put him in there on 2nd-and-1. It just seems like the more likely candidate is a big guy.

I guess it wasn't you who called Russell a bum or blamed the line for everything, although I've definitely heard quite a bit of that overall. Sorry if I misdirected the response to that at you, but there are definitely other people in this debate who that applies to.
.

Actually, the fact that a RB is big isnt as important as he runs hard. I honestly think the best size for a RB is that 5'10" ish, 220-230lb guy with speed, strength and finishes runs, but I dont like to get stuck on measurables.

Not sure if you know any physics, but the equation;

F (force)=M (mass) X V2 (velocity squared)

is absolute fact that speed is exponentially more important in determining the power than size. Its why a small rock hitting you at 20mph will hurt more than a larger rock that hits you at 10mph.

Parker is smaller than I would like, but his speed and the fact that he is strong and finishes runs well make him a very good RB. The worst thing they did for him though, was take away Dan Kreider.

The short yardage problems are mostly blocking up front, no lead blocker and the handoff takes too long to happen. Needs to be a quicker forming "dive" type play rather than a slower developing handoff.

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 12:01 PM
The key word was "complimentary" running back. I'm talking about a stronger, more powerful runner to compliment the smaller, faster Parker. Moore is neither a powerful back, nor a guy with breakaway speed. He is really a 3rd down back and a guy that is an all around good football player. Please read more of the thread.

Here is what I said back when he was signed. I didn't become a Moore bandwagon jumper, nor am I dillusional enough to think he should be our regular starting RB.

Here's what I want to know -- not trying to diss you, but just honestly wanting to hear people's opinions -- assuming both backs were healthy and durable enough to last the whole season, why would we want Parker as the starter and not Moore?

It seems to me like:

- They're both about the same at finding the holes when they're there for positive yardage.

- Parker has a little more speed, but most NFL running backs (including Moore), as well as defensive backs, are pretty fast too, so it's rarely the difference-maker.

- If they make it to the secondary, they're both about the same at breaking out the 25-30 yard runs. 70-yard "home runs" only happen once every season or two and require luck no matter how fast you are, so they can be ignored.

- Moore has slightly more power, but not enough to make him a good option on short yardage or at the goal line. But every so often, he'll grind out a 4-yard gain where Parker probably would've gotten 1 or 0.

- Moore is a far better receiver.

Based on that, I would think that although Moore still has some holes in his game, he has fewer than Parker and looks like a pretty attractive option.

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 12:11 PM
Not sure if you know any physics, but the equation;

F (force)=M (mass) X V2 (velocity squared)

is absolute fact that speed is exponentially more important in determining the power than size. Its why a small rock hitting you at 20mph will hurt more than a larger rock that hits you at 10mph.

We've been over this before. That equation does not apply to running a football. Running backs do not get up to full speed behind the line of scrimmage, and in any case, the way to grind out a 1-yard gain is not to sprint straight into the pile like a bowling ball.

In short yardage, what generally happens is a guy grabs you and tries to pull you down, and the determining factor is how hard you can push back against him by keeping your legs driving. Or a guy makes contact with you and knocks you back and to the outside, and now you've got to stiff-arm a linebacker, or lower your shoulder into his ribs hoping to get enough leverage that you'll fall forward. You rarely see a running back pick up a first down by getting into a spectacular collision with a defender that knocks him backwards through the air.

Top speed has basically nothing to do with it. It's all leg strength and leverage, and I don't think Parker is that great at either.

Although as you point out, the blocking can have a lot to do with it if it's no good -- we saw that on Russell's failed attempt. But hey -- if we're going to run an offense with this line and no fullback, then maybe we should try using a guy who compensates for that a little better. If Parker isn't getting any yards, figuring out whose fault it is still doesn't get us any more yards.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 12:22 PM
the way to grind out a 1-yard gain is not to sprint straight into the pile like a bowling ball.

The way to get short yardage is to find the crease (not hole) and definately sprint into it like a bowling ball. (Maurice Jones-Drew for instance). Referred to as "getting skinny" in football.

Top speed has basically nothing to do with it. It's all leg strength and leverage, and I don't think Parker is that great at either.

Parker does not have great leverage when stopped, I agree. Saying speed has nothing to do with it, basically is ignoring the most important aspect that coaches look for, just to try and make a point. Speed kills. You cant have team speed without individual speed.

Although as you point out, the blocking can have a lot to do with it if it's no good -- we saw that on Russell's failed attempt.

If the blocking is no good, you arent going anywhere. Think back to how many times Bettis got stuffed when there was no blocking. Think about "the tackle" The blocking wasnt there and Bettis tried to "get skinny" when Brackett knocked the ball loose. Explain why the greatest short yardage RB of all time didnt run over Gary Brackett for me please?? Didnt he know its how good big lumbering backs run??.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 12:34 PM
Here's what I want to know -- not trying to diss you, but just honestly wanting to hear people's opinions -- assuming both backs were healthy and durable enough to last the whole season, why would we want Parker as the starter and not Moore?

.

I start the answer by asking what do you think that 32 NFL coaches would think?? Would they want Parker or Moore? The vikings had Moore #3 on the depth chart behind Chester Taylor.

Parker has breakaway speed, is strong and powerful for being a small back. He can get to the corner and get around it better than Moore. Both are patient runners that setup their blocks well, but Parker has the ability to accelerate once the block is setup.

If the line can get the RB to the 2nd level, Parker has the ability to run away from LB's and DB's. Moore doesnt have that breakaway speed, nor does he have the power to run them over.

As receivers, Moore is naturally better, but how many times do you send your RB in a pattern unless its a 3rd down play?? Teams have 3rd down RB's (Moore is that guy). In most cases you want a back to catch screen passes and Parker is far more dangerous as we all have seen once he catches the screen, he has the ability to outrun the blocking and defenders. Moore does not.

I honestly think that if you were able to ask 32 NFL head coaches.....you need a starting RB, would you take Willie Parker or Mewelde Moore???? You would probably get 32 guys say Wille Parker.

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 01:10 PM
The way to get short yardage is to find the crease (not hole) and definately sprint into it like a bowling ball. (Maurice Jones-Drew for instance). Referred to as "getting skinny" in football.

Sometimes. Those are the times when even Parker can get the first down -- but then again, so can just about any other back in the NFL. But there are definitely a significant number of times when you're going to have to shove people around or just plain outmuscle them. You can't deny that.

Parker does not have great leverage when stopped, I agree. Saying speed has nothing to do with it, basically is ignoring the most important aspect that coaches look for, just to try and make a point. Speed kills. You cant have team speed without individual speed.

Yes, speed matters to a point. But honestly, I think once you've crossed a certain acceptable threshold where you have enough speed to play your position in the NFL, the rest is splitting hairs. Is a back with 4.3 speed really that much better than a back with 4.5 or 4.6 speed? Not really. What do you do with that speed?

The best players at their positions are almost never just the fastest. Otherwise James Jett would've been the greatest receiver in the history of the league instead of Jerry Rice, Michael Vick would've been 10 times better than Joe Montana, and guys like Emmit Smith and Walter Payton would be run-of-the-mill chumps.

If the blocking is no good, you arent going anywhere. Think back to how many times Bettis got stuffed when there was no blocking. Think about "the tackle" The blocking wasnt there and Bettis tried to "get skinny" when Brackett knocked the ball loose. Explain why the greatest short yardage RB of all time didnt run over Gary Brackett for me please?? Didnt he know its how good big lumbering backs run??.

Again, sometimes. Yes, I saw Bettis get stuffed at the line plenty of times when there was no blocking -- believe me, that's one of the first thing the OMG Parker supporters bring up. I also saw plenty of times when Bettis got hit at the line due to poor blocking and bulled his way forward for a few yards anyway. That's something I've rarely seen anyone on our team do since.

Too often, the Parker short yardage argument turns into "Well, you can't be mad at him, even Bettis got stuffed at the line sometimes." No. That's not the point at all. No one is saying Bettis was successful 100% of the time at short yardage. But did he give you a better chance of being successful than Parker does? Undoubtedly.

Basically, all it would take to fill an obvious need on offense is a stocky guy who's hard to bring down. Why do we not have one? We're a professional football team.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 01:17 PM
I start the answer by asking what do you think that 32 NFL coaches would think?? Would they want Parker or Moore? The vikings had Moore #3 on the depth chart behind Chester Taylor.

I honestly think that if you were able to ask 32 NFL head coaches.....you need a starting RB, would you take Willie Parker or Mewelde Moore???? You would probably get 32 guys say Wille Parker.

Mewelde Moore averaged 5.3 yards per carry in Minnesota and is averaging 4.1 with us. He also has 153 receptions for 1383 yards in 67 games.

Willie Parker has average 4.4 yards per carry in his career and is averaging 3.9 this year. He has had 76 receptions for 624 yards in 62 games.

Sometimes there is no ryhme or reason to why one guy is starting and another is 3rd string, just look where Parker was 4 years ago.

And using the example of asking 32 NFL head coaches who they would rather have just doesn't work cause if you would've asked 32 NFL head coaches who they would take at QB 8 years ago, Elvis Grbac or Tom Brady, 32 would say Grbac. And if you asked 32 NFL head coaches in 2004 who they would rather have at RB, Chris Brown or Willie Parker, 32 would say Chris Brown.

tony hipchest
12-09-2008, 01:20 PM
Basically, all it would take to fill an obvious need on offense is a stocky guy who's hard to bring down. Why do we not have one? We're a professional football team.we drafted mendenhall, much to the chagrin of many fans who said we didnt need a stocky powerful guy, and that we needed the 6yh or 7th best lineman in the draft instead.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 01:46 PM
But there are definitely a significant number of times when you're going to have to shove people around or just plain outmuscle them. You can't deny that.



Yes, speed matters to a point. But honestly, I think once you've crossed a certain acceptable threshold where you have enough speed to play your position in the NFL, the rest is splitting hairs. Is a back with 4.3 speed really that much better than a back with 4.5 or 4.6 speed? Not really. What do you do with that speed?

I have played O-line and I have coached O-line and I firmly believe in "outmuscling" defenders. I have blocked for guys that just needed a crack and they could go the distance and hard nosed grinders that get the tough yards. I love them both, but the grinders dont strike fear into defenders like the guy with speed.....they just know its gonna be physical and accept it.

I am not a fan of stopwatch speed. You know a guy on the field that has "breakaway speed" as opposed to somebody that doesnt. Parker does, Moore doesnt. I think the entire football world knows that. We all know this is a game of inches and if a guy with speed hits the hole faster, or gets to the outside faster, he gains inches away from a would be tackler. Fast guys run away from defenders, guys with good speed get tackled earlier.

In short yardage, I take a guy that will hit the hole and hit it hard. I dont care if he is 250 or 215lbs. If there is no hole, he needs to stick his helmet in a crack or stick it in the OG's back and keep pushing. I agree that we dont have that guy on the roster, but to openly wish Parker was gone, just because he isnt a short yardage back and ignore all the other yards that he gets is the proverbial "not seeing the forest for the trees".

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 01:48 PM
we drafted mendenhall, much to the chagrin of many fans who said we didnt need a stocky powerful guy, and that we needed the 6yh or 7th best lineman in the draft instead.

I know I liked the idea when I first heard who we took. It just sucks that he got hurt right away. When he comes back next year, I hope we actually use him, or that he turns out to be what we thought he was. Both of those, actually.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 01:58 PM
And using the example of asking 32 NFL head coaches who they would rather have just doesn't work cause if you would've asked 32 NFL head coaches who they would take at QB 8 years ago, Elvis Grbac or Tom Brady, 32 would say Grbac. And if you asked 32 NFL head coaches in 2004 who they would rather have at RB, Chris Brown or Willie Parker, 32 would say Chris Brown.

Apples to oranges my friend. in 2004 Chris Brown already had a season under his belt and Willie Parker was only a free agent rookie with no stats. In 2000 Elvis Grbac already had 8 seasons in the NFL , while Brady was a rookie.

Try comparing 2 backs like Parker and Moore, both that first got to see game action in 2004 and have a 4 year track record, you will see that Parker has 4800 yards, while Moore has 1800 yards. Similar tenure, similar era, dissimilar yardage.

Trying to argue that Mewelde Moore is a better feature running back than Willie Parker is like trying to argue that the unemployed Najeh Davenport is better than Willie Parker.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 02:04 PM
we drafted mendenhall, much to the chagrin of many fans who said we didnt need a stocky powerful guy, and that we needed the 6yh or 7th best lineman in the draft instead.

Sooooo true. Everybody likes to complain that we needed a lineman, but if they picked Duane Brown, John Greco or Jeremy Zuttah they would all be screaming ...."we reached!!!".

tony hipchest
12-09-2008, 02:11 PM
I know I liked the idea when I first heard who we took. It just sucks that he got hurt right away. When he comes back next year, I hope we actually use him, or that he turns out to be what we thought he was. Both of those, actually.as bad as things seem offensively (and especially with our punting) i feel we wouldve seen a world of difference with a healthy mendenhall and sepulveda this season.

BlastFurnace
12-09-2008, 02:12 PM
as bad as things seem offensively (and especially with our punting) i feel we wouldve seen a world of difference with a healthy mendenhall and sepulveda this season.

Agree 100%. Perhaps even with a healthy Greg Warren for the 2nd half of the Giants game as well.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-09-2008, 02:13 PM
I start the answer by asking what do you think that 32 NFL coaches would think?? Would they want Parker or Moore? The vikings had Moore #3 on the depth chart behind Chester Taylor.

Parker has breakaway speed, is strong and powerful for being a small back. He can get to the corner and get around it better than Moore. Both are patient runners that setup their blocks well, but Parker has the ability to accelerate once the block is setup.

If the line can get the RB to the 2nd level, Parker has the ability to run away from LB's and DB's. Moore doesnt have that breakaway speed, nor does he have the power to run them over.

As receivers, Moore is naturally better, but how many times do you send your RB in a pattern unless its a 3rd down play?? Teams have 3rd down RB's (Moore is that guy). In most cases you want a back to catch screen passes and Parker is far more dangerous as we all have seen once he catches the screen, he has the ability to outrun the blocking and defenders. Moore does not.

I honestly think that if you were able to ask 32 NFL head coaches.....you need a starting RB, would you take Willie Parker or Mewelde Moore???? You would probably get 32 guys say Wille Parker.

Sorry, but much of your argument holds no water.

1) Brad Childress had Moore at 3rd string but he also thought Tarvaris Jackson was a franchise QB. Tiki Barber was strictly a 3rd down back until his 5th season when Sean Peyton became his OC and figured it out. Priest Holmes was waived and Ryan Grant was a 5th stringer 1 year ago. 32 teams passed on Tom Brady, and Tomlin/Arians had Moore below Carey Davis earlier this year. Doesnt make it right. Coaches decisions are opinions, often wrong, and not indicative of facts.

2) Parker is a patient runner who sets up his blocks well? I dont think so. Parkers vision and patience are average or below and Moores vision and patience are among the best in the NFL. You are entitled to your opinion, but thats not the case.

3) What you are saying about getting to the second level is not true. Moore and Parker have the same long run on the year (32 yards) and Parker hasnt had a run longer than that since 2006. You say that Moore doesnt have the power to run over LBs/DBs but Moore has run over a number of DBs in the Dallas, NE, and Cinncinnati games over the past 3 weeks. Go back to the first Baltimore game and see Moores 1st goaline carry where he meets Ray Lewis 1-on-1 in the hole. Ray Lewis went backward.

4) When do you send RBs in to patterns besides 3rd down? I dont know but Marshall Faulk, Brian Westbrook, Tiki Barber, LT did plenty of times in their careers and they did OK with it. Acting like that skillset isnt relevant is kind of silly.

BTW, the title of 3rd down back is a complete fallacy. In fact, name 1 other 3rd down back in the NFL today (hint- Kevin Faulk has only 8 carries on 3rd down this season).

IMO you have some biases that affect your analysis.

Fire Haley
12-09-2008, 02:13 PM
I'll never diss a 4th rd kicker again, I learned my lesson.

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 02:13 PM
I have played O-line and I have coached O-line and I firmly believe in "outmuscling" defenders. I have blocked for guys that just needed a crack and they could go the distance and hard nosed grinders that get the tough yards. I love them both, but the grinders dont strike fear into defenders like the guy with speed.....they just know its gonna be physical and accept it.

I am not a fan of stopwatch speed. You know a guy on the field that has "breakaway speed" as opposed to somebody that doesnt. Parker does, Moore doesnt. I think the entire football world knows that. We all know this is a game of inches and if a guy with speed hits the hole faster, or gets to the outside faster, he gains inches away from a would be tackler. Fast guys run away from defenders, guys with good speed get tackled earlier.

In short yardage, I take a guy that will hit the hole and hit it hard. I dont care if he is 250 or 215lbs. If there is no hole, he needs to stick his helmet in a crack or stick it in the OG's back and keep pushing. I agree that we dont have that guy on the roster, but to openly wish Parker was gone, just because he isnt a short yardage back and ignore all the other yards that he gets is the proverbial "not seeing the forest for the trees".

See, the "breakaway speed" part is the key point where I think I disagree with a lot of people. Over the course of a few seasons, I just haven't seen Parker outrun or out-quick many more defenders than a typical NFL running back. I think he's very good at taking advantage of it when we block well and give him an opportunity, but breakaway speed or not, he doesn't create too many big plays on his own. His yards after contact are probably horrible. That's why when he gets shut down, he gets shut down HARD.

Instead of fearing his speed, I'd think good defenses would gain confidence from knowing that for the most part, all they have to do is do their job and fill in the gaps well, and Parker's not going anywhere. It explains the inconsistency, it explains the sacks, and it probably puts a lot of extra pressure on the already-maligned offensive line.

Again, I don't really wish Parker was entirely gone just because he's not a short-yardage guy. But if we're set on using one feature back, we'd better find a more well-rounded one -- and in the meantime, I definitely don't think he should be the main back in every game to the exclusion of others who would be better suited for a situation. Against the Cowboys, for example, it probably would have helped to replace him with a big stocky guy.

Ahh well. At least we won.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-09-2008, 02:36 PM
See, the "breakaway speed" part is the key point where I think I disagree with a lot of people. Over the course of a few seasons, I just haven't seen Parker outrun or out-quick many more defenders than a typical NFL running back. I think he's very good at taking advantage of it when we block well and give him an opportunity, but breakaway speed or not, he doesn't create too many big plays on his own. His yards after contact are probably horrible. That's why when he gets shut down, he gets shut down HARD.

Instead of fearing his speed, I'd think good defenses would gain confidence from knowing that for the most part, all they have to do is do their job and fill in the gaps well, and Parker's not going anywhere. It explains the inconsistency, it explains the sacks, and it probably puts a lot of extra pressure on the already-maligned offensive line.

Again, I don't really wish Parker was entirely gone just because he's not a short-yardage guy. But if we're set on using one feature back, we'd better find a more well-rounded one -- and in the meantime, I definitely don't think he should be the main back in every game to the exclusion of others who would be better suited for a situation. Against the Cowboys, for example, it probably would have helped to replace him with a big stocky guy.

Ahh well. At least we won. It is completely irrelevant, and in fact, unnecessary for this Steelers team. Parker last had a run longer of 32 yards in 2006. This idea that a RB can break a 80 yard run is silly because it only happens every few years at best. The Steelers have a champioinship defense NOW and need to win 6-8 games to make that happen. The chances of a healthy Willie Parker breaking a big one in those games is tiny and that is if he is healthy.

Moore, on the other hand, is among the leaders in runs of >10 yards and is among the league leaders in 1st downs/carry. Those are the important stats for this football team because those things keep the chains moving....not the 80 yard run that happens every 2+ years.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=2008&type=Rushing&range=NFL&rank=069

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=2008&type=Rushing&range=NFL&rank=004

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 02:38 PM
Sorry, but much of your argument holds no water.

1) Brad Childress had Moore at 3rd string but he also thought Tarvaris Jackson was a franchise QB. Tiki Barber was strictly a 3rd down back until his 5th season when Sean Peyton became his OC and figured it out. Priest Holmes was waived and Ryan Grant was a 5th stringer 1 year ago. 32 teams passed on Tom Brady, and Tomlin/Arians had Moore below Carey Davis earlier this year. Doesnt make it right. Coaches decisions are opinions, often wrong, and not indicative of facts.

2) Parker is a patient runner who sets up his blocks well? I dont think so. Parkers vision and patience are average or below and Moores vision and patience are among the best in the NFL. You are entitled to your opinion, but thats not the case.

3) What you are saying about getting to the second level is not true. Moore and Parker have the same long run on the year (32 yards) and Parker hasnt had a run longer than that since 2006. You say that Moore doesnt have the power to run over LBs/DBs but Moore has run over a number of DBs in the Dallas, NE, and Cinncinnati games over the past 3 weeks. Go back to the first Baltimore game and see Moores 1st goaline carry where he meets Ray Lewis 1-on-1 in the hole. Ray Lewis went backward.

4) When do you send RBs in to patterns besides 3rd down? I dont know but Marshall Faulk, Brian Westbrook, Tiki Barber, LT did plenty of times in their careers and they did OK with it. Acting like that skillset isnt relevant is kind of silly.

BTW, the title of 3rd down back is a complete fallacy. In fact, name 1 other 3rd down back in the NFL today (hint- Kevin Faulk has only 8 carries on 3rd down this season).

IMO you have some biases that affect your analysis.

So you are saying that Mewelde Moore is a better RB than Willie Parker......or you just signed up on the board to argue for arguement sake??

Are you comparing Mewelde Moore or Willie Parker to Faulk, Westbrook, Tiki Barber??

Are you saying that 3rd down backs in the NFL dont exist?? I'll name you 3 in the AFC North, Kenny Watson, Ray Rice, Jerome Harrison. How about Darren Sproles or Leon Washington. And you think I have silly biases that affect my analysis...... :rofl:

When the Steelers start 2009 regular season and Mewelde Moore is not the starting feature running back, will you come back and say you were wrong?? If he IS, I definately will.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 02:46 PM
See, the "breakaway speed" part is the key point where I think I disagree with a lot of people. Over the course of a few seasons, I just haven't seen Parker outrun or out-quick many more defenders than a typical NFL running back.

Ahh well. At least we won.

The first thing you saw with him," said Steelers coach Bill Cowher, "was the speed. But he was raw.

said Steelers running backs coach Dick Hoak, who has been with the organization as a player or an assistant coach for 44 years. "He's a guy who can turn the game around just like that. "

He registered five games of 100 yards, had nine runs of 20 yards or more, and four for 37 yards or longer. Counting receptions, Parker recorded five plays from scrimmage of 40 yards or more -- and his 80-yard touchdown run at Cleveland was a personal highlight reel,

said Hines Ward, arguably the NFL's best blocking wide receiver. "He forces defenses to play us a little bit differently than in the past. Defenses know now that, if they miss a gap and Willie gets into the open, it's all over."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2312453

Like you said, at least we won.

fansince'76
12-09-2008, 02:47 PM
Moore, on the other hand, is among the leaders in runs of >10 yards and is among the league leaders in 1st downs/carry. Those are the important stats for this football team because those things keep the chains moving....not the 80 yard run that happens every 2+ years.

Is that why we didn't do squat on the ground when he started against the Colts, who are ranked about 25th in run D? Sorry, but 24 rushes for 57 yards in a game isn't going to move the chains too much.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 03:02 PM
So you are saying that Mewelde Moore is a better RB than Willie Parker......or you just signed up on the board to argue for arguement sake??

Are you comparing Mewelde Moore or Willie Parker to Faulk, Westbrook, Tiki Barber??

Are you saying that 3rd down backs in the NFL dont exist?? I'll name you 3 in the AFC North, Kenny Watson, Ray Rice, Jerome Harrison. How about Darren Sproles or Leon Washington. And you think I have silly biases that affect my analysis...... :rofl:

When the Steelers start 2009 regular season and Mewelde Moore is not the starting feature running back, will you come back and say you were wrong?? If he IS, I definately will.

Here and now, at this point in time, I will say without hesitation, Moore is better running back than Parker and is better for the team right now.

stlrtruck
12-09-2008, 03:08 PM
The title of this thread needs to be changed to, "We need to stop acting like spoiled children about our players!"

Let's face it, not every aspect of the team is going to be satisfactory to every fan, every day, every game, or every outcome.

But the way this board has been arguing about Ben, FWP, Arians, O-Line, etc. since the beginning of the season (and I've been there too) is a bit bungalish if you ask me.

We are 10-3 and one game up on the ratbirds. We have a dominating TEAM that on any given Sunday can blow holes through opponents in every aspect of the game. Have they been perfect since the beginning of the season? NO, matter of factly - HELL NO!

But there are 53 men who every day put on the Black and Gold. Then there are millions of fans world wide who support those 53 men, the Rooneys, and the coaches, or at least profess to support!

Boys and Girls -I understand the desire for better on the field especially from certain aspects of the game, but let's not forget who we are and who our team is!

WE ARE STEELERS NATIONS - THEY MOST DOMINATING FORCE NFL WIDE!

now act like it!

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 03:10 PM
He registered five games of 100 yards, had nine runs of 20 yards or more, and four for 37 yards or longer. Counting receptions, Parker recorded five plays from scrimmage of 40 yards or more -- and his 80-yard touchdown run at Cleveland was a personal highlight reel

No offense, but that seems pretty typical for a season's work. One long run every four games -- big whoop. I assume that next time he's in the middle of another 29-yard, 16-carry game against Baltimore, some long run he had against the Bengals at the start of the season is going to save our ass.

As for the quotes -- what did you expect? Guys to rag on their own teammate? Come on.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 03:14 PM
The title of this thread needs to be changed to, "We need to stop acting like spoiled children about our players!"

But the way this board has been arguing about Ben, FWP, Arians, O-Line, etc. since the beginning of the season (and I've been there too) is a bit bungalish if you ask me.

Boys and Girls -I understand the desire for better on the field especially from certain aspects of the game, but let's not forget who we are and who our team is!

If we are spoiled children, only one parent has been doing all the spoiling (the defense). The other parent (the offense) has pretty much skipped town on us,

If not on this board then where? And if not that on this board then what?

I love the Pittsburgh Steelers, that is why I like discussing them, good or bad, with other fans.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 03:17 PM
No offense, but that seems pretty typical for a season's work. One long run every four games -- big whoop. I assume that next time he's in the middle of another 29-yard, 16-carry game against Baltimore, some long run he had against the Bengals at the start of the season is going to save our ass.

As for the quotes -- what did you expect? Guys to rag on their own teammate? Come on.

No offense taken. I didn't actually expect you to give any credit to an article done by ESPN that quotes Bill Cowher, Dick Hoak and Hines Ward. After all.........what do they know as opposed to what you or I? :chuckle:

Now, onto the Ravens for me.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-09-2008, 03:21 PM
As for the quotes -- what did you expect? Guys to rag on their own teammate? Come on.

Actually, Bill Cowher and Dick Hoak were not Parkers teammates......they were his COACHES. I know its customary for coaches sugar coat things when they talk about the #3 Steelers rusher of all time. Come on. :rofl:

lilyoder6
12-09-2008, 03:36 PM
If we are spoiled children, only one parent has been doing all the spoiling (the defense). The other parent (the offense) has pretty much skipped town on us,

i guess we see who wears the pants in this family

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-09-2008, 03:38 PM
So you are saying that Mewelde Moore is a better RB than Willie Parker......or you just signed up on the board to argue for arguement sake??

Are you comparing Mewelde Moore or Willie Parker to Faulk, Westbrook, Tiki Barber??

Are you saying that 3rd down backs in the NFL dont exist?? I'll name you 3 in the AFC North, Kenny Watson, Ray Rice, Jerome Harrison. How about Darren Sproles or Leon Washington. And you think I have silly biases that affect my analysis...... :rofl:

When the Steelers start 2009 regular season and Mewelde Moore is not the starting feature running back, will you come back and say you were wrong?? If he IS, I definately will.

Kenny Watson- 13 total carries, 4 3rd down carries (23%), 3 total receptions, 1 3rd down reception (33%)
Ray Rice- 106 total carries, 12 3rd down carries (11%), 33 total receptions, 13 3rd down receptions (39%)
Jerome Harrison- 31 total carries, 0 3rd down carries (0%), 10 total receptions, 4 3rd down receptions (40%)
Darren Sproles- 45 total carries, 5 3rd down carries (11%), 20 total receptions, 5 3rd down receptions (25%)
Leon Washington- 62 total carries, 11 3rd down carries (18%), 40 total receptions, 16 3rd down receptions (40%)

Perhaps you can explain this?

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-09-2008, 03:40 PM
Is that why we didn't do squat on the ground when he started against the Colts, who are ranked about 25th in run D? Sorry, but 24 rushes for 57 yards in a game isn't going to move the chains too much. It is a disingenuous argument to take the 1 bad game (against 6 good games) and use that as the marker.

Take the average and the numbers are quite impressive.

steelreserve
12-09-2008, 03:53 PM
Actually, Bill Cowher and Dick Hoak were not Parkers teammates......they were his COACHES. I know its customary for coaches sugar coat things when they talk about the #3 Steelers rusher of all time. Come on. :rofl:

Go ahead and nitpick over whether I used the right word, but it's the exact same idea -- if you're a player or a coach, are you going to say anything except positive things about a guy on your team to the press, especially for a fluff piece like that?

Not to mention the fact that at the time that article was written, we didn't have our current problems of being one-dimensional and inconsistent. And since the assumption at that point was that Staley was going to actually play well, it looked like we'd have both depth and the ability to mix things up. Ahh how things change.

Well, not really. Now we have the depth and the ability to mix things up, just not the willingness.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 03:59 PM
Go ahead and nitpick over whether I used the right word, but it's the exact same idea -- if you're a player or a coach, are you going to say anything except positive things about a guy on your team to the press, especially for a fluff piece like that?

Not to mention the fact that at the time that article was written, we didn't have our current problems of being one-dimensional and inconsistent.

Even if we were going through our current problems, something to the effect of, "he's going through a rut right now, he's a great player, he'll bounce back in no time," would be said.

fansince'76
12-09-2008, 04:11 PM
It is a disingenuous argument to take the 1 bad game (against 6 good games) and use that as the marker.

Take the average and the numbers are quite impressive.

OK, let's widen that to the 4 games he's actually started then.

The one I already mentioned against the Colts - 24 carries for 57 yards, 2.4 YPC

17 carries for 99 yards against JAX, 5.8 YPC

20 carries for 120 yards against CIN, 6.0 YPC

19 carries for 84 yards against NYG, 4.4 YPC

80 carries for 360 yards, 4.5 YPC. Pretty good, but taking into account that 3 of those performances came against the 25th, 19th, and 23rd-ranked rushing defenses in the league (IND, JAX, and CIN, respectively) they're a lot less impressive. Against the one good run defense he's faced in a starting role, he had a 32-yard scamper at the beginning of the game for a TD. The rest of the game, he toted the ball 18 times for 52 yards, which averages out to about 2.9 YPC. Again, not too impressive. And since taking away the long runs and discounting big games against crap run defenses are pretty much the two favorite tacks of people who want to see Moore supplant Parker as the starter, this analysis is only fair. What's good for the goose and all.

I don't see how Moore is an appreciably better RB than a healthy Parker, sorry. He's a better receiver, but that's about it.

NYC SteelersFan
12-09-2008, 04:20 PM
I don't see how Moore is an appreciably better RB than a healthy Parker, sorry. He's a better receiver, but that's about it.

The problem is we don't know if he's healthy or not and if he is, then he isn't playing like it, so at this point in time Moore is appreciably better.