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NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 03:36 AM
17 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 4:

15 times in the shotgun formation; 2 sacks, 1 interception, 1 offensive penalty, 1 defensive penalty, 3 failed passes, 7 successful passes, 2 sucessful QB rushes

On 3rd and 4 we have ran 15 pass plays on 17 attempts, we converted successfully on 7 out of 15 pass attempts and 2 out of 2 rush attempts.

14 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 3:

9 times in the shotgun formation; 1 sack, 1 offensive penalty, 4 failed passes, 6 successful passes and 2 successful rushes

On 3rd and 3 we have ran 12 pass plays on 14 attempts, we converted successfully on 6 out of 12 pass attempts and 2 out of 2 rush attempts.

24 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 2:

11 times in the shotgun formation; 5 sacks, 3 interceptions, 3 failed passes, 2 defensive penalties, 9 successful passes and 2 successful rushes.

On 3rd and 2 we have ran 20 pass plays on 24 attempts, we converted successfully on 9 out of 20 pass attempts and 2 out of 2 rush attempts.

27 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 1:

4 times in the shotgun formation; 2 sacks, 1 failed QB sneak, 3 failed passes, 7 failed rushes, 1 successful pass, 11 successful rushes, 2 successful QB sneaks.

On 3rd and 1 we have ran 6 pass plays on 27 attempts, we converted successfully on 1 out of 6 pass attempts and 13 out of 21 rush attempts.


What does this all amount to?

1. Arian's is an idiot
2. Arian's has called for shotgun 39 out of 82 times we have been faced with 3rd down and 4 or less. 15 shotgun formations on 17 3rd and 4's.
3. Arian's has called for 53 pass plays out of 82 times we have been faced with 3rd down and 4 or less.
4. We have converted 23 out of 53 pass plays on 3rd and 4 or less and have converted 19 out of 27 rush attempts on 3rd and 4 or less, the difference in rush success over pass success being clear as day yet Arian's continues to call twice as many pass plays in those 3rd and 4 or less situations.
5. 4 out of 14 of Roethlisberger's INT's have come in these situations.
6. These situations were directly responsible for the Giants and Colts losses.
7. At this point in the season Tomlin is just as guilty as Arian's for not having done anything to correct the "situation"
8. Arian's is an idiot.

RoethlisBURGHer
12-22-2008, 03:53 AM
I wouldn't exactly say that Tomlin is just as respinsible for this as Arians.

While I would love to run more on 3rd-and-short...we don't exactly have the personnel to do that either. Parker isn't a power back, and Moore isn't quite a power back either.

We all got spoiled with Jerome Bettis and even Staley with their power style of running the ball. When there was no hole, both of them were able to make one or move the pile for the most part.

Our offensive line stinks at run blocking and pass blocking this season. I've seen us get stuffed on 3rd and short running the ball. Goal line against Dallas, we got the ball with less than a yard to go and our supposed "power" back got stuffed losing two yards.

Maybe things would be different if Mendenhall never got hurt, and if Willie never got hurt.

Parker hasn't been right really since he hurt his knee...and then his shoulder. Mendenhall was supposed to be a nice blend of power and some speed...but he got hurt so we won't know till next year. Moore has done an excellent job in the wake of their injuries, but he isn't an every-down back.

Things would be different if we still had Smith at LT, because at least he was a road grader. Simmons couldn't pass block that well, but he too was a road grader. Kemo is damn sure no Faneca when it comes to blocking the run or the pass.

Anyhow, didn't everyone complain about how Cowher's offense, especially once we got to the playoffs, was run-run-incomplete pass-punt...aka way to predictable?

augustashark
12-22-2008, 04:14 AM
I wouldn't exactly say that Tomlin is just as respinsible for this as Arians.

While I would love to run more on 3rd-and-short...we don't exactly have the personnel to do that either. Parker isn't a power back, and Moore isn't quite a power back either.

We all got spoiled with Jerome Bettis and even Staley with their power style of running the ball. When there was no hole, both of them were able to make one or move the pile for the most part.

Our offensive line stinks at run blocking and pass blocking this season. I've seen us get stuffed on 3rd and short running the ball. Goal line against Dallas, we got the ball with less than a yard to go and our supposed "power" back got stuffed losing two yards.

Maybe things would be different if Mendenhall never got hurt, and if Willie never got hurt.

Parker hasn't been right really since he hurt his knee...and then his shoulder. Mendenhall was supposed to be a nice blend of power and some speed...but he got hurt so we won't know till next year. Moore has done an excellent job in the wake of their injuries, but he isn't an every-down back.

Things would be different if we still had Smith at LT, because at least he was a road grader. Simmons couldn't pass block that well, but he too was a road grader. Kemo is damn sure no Faneca when it comes to blocking the run or the pass.

Anyhow, didn't everyone complain about how Cowher's offense, especially once we got to the playoffs, was run-run-incomplete pass-punt...aka way to predictable?

I agree, and if he is healthy and is practicing well then he needs to be in there for the playoff run!

Hell, throw Starks at RT and take Colon the hell out of there. JMO.

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 04:32 AM
Anyhow, didn't everyone complain about how Cowher's offense, especially once we got to the playoffs, was run-run-incomplete pass-punt...aka way to predictable?

I wish I was on this forum when those people were complaining about Cowher, then I could've seen how the "non-negative forum clique" feels when I post my "negative" posts about Arian's/Tomlin.

Cowhers personnel consisted of Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart, Eric Green, Yancy Thigpen, Barry Foster, Charles Johnson, Leroy Thompson, Mike Tomczak, Erric Pegram and Tommy Maddox. His run-run-incomplete along with the above cast of characters got us 10 seasons of 10 wins or more and 10 playoff berths in 15 seasons total. He got us to the Superbowl twice and the AFC conference game 5 times. For all that with the players he was given, Cowher should've been given a F'ing medal.


When he was FINALLY given a franchise QB with a franchise WR at the same time, he won us a Superbowl.

Galax Steeler
12-22-2008, 04:39 AM
What happened to Gary Russell we were using him in some of the short yardage situations and know we don't even use him we need to get back to those short yardage runs the way we use to.

augustashark
12-22-2008, 04:42 AM
I wish I was on this forum when those people were complaining about Cowher, then I could've seen how the "non-negative forum clique" feels when I post my "negative" posts about Arian's/Tomlin.

Cowhers personnel consisted of Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart, Eric Green, Yancy Thigpen, Barry Foster, Charles Johnson, Leroy Thompson, Mike Tomczak, Erric Pegram and Tommy Maddox. His run-run-incomplete along with the above cast of characters got us 10 seasons of 10 wins or more and 10 playoff berths in 15 seasons total. He got us to the Superbowl twice and the AFC conference game 5 times. For all that with the players he was given, Cowher should've been given a F'ing medal.


When he was FINALLY given a franchise QB with a franchise WR at the same time, he won us a Superbowl.


Wow, I agree with you. The only thing I would say is that we should have made at least one other SB, 1994 (afcc) was the one we should have won. That Chargers team was not even close to the talent overall that we had and Cowher had no excuse to lose that game. 2004 we had a rookie QB and that was the difference.

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 04:52 AM
Wow, I agree with you. The only thing I would say is that we should have made at least one other SB, 1994 (afcc) was the one we should have won. That Chargers team was not even close to the talent overall that we had and Cowher had no excuse to lose that game. 2001 we had a rookie QB and that was the difference.

Barry Foster was completely bottled up, won't even blame that one on Cowher as bad of a loss as it was. I'll take Cowher back next year if he wanted to return. That is a coach who knows how to turn $hit into gold. I'm sure he would do wonders for this o-line and non-existent rush scheme.

ricksteelers55
12-22-2008, 04:55 AM
What happened to Gary Russell we were using him in some of the short yardage situations and know we don't even use him we need to get back to those short yardage runs the way we use to.

I dunno it seems like since he got stuffed on goal line against the cowboys they've lost their faith in him....sad cause he his the only ''power runner'' we have

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-22-2008, 10:37 AM
I think Tomlin is a guy that empowers his coordinators/players and expects them to perform like professionals. I am not a fan of Arians system, but think Tomlin's loyalty to his guys is admirable.....but he may have to rethink that.

Did you see the sunday night game where the Panthers have converted on 3rd and1 or 4th and 1,.,,,,15 of 17 times this season?? They did it with Williams, Stewart and Hoover too. John Fox has built a running game that I am envious of. It starts with Gross, Otah, Kalil and a physical mentality.

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 02:40 PM
I think Tomlin is a guy that empowers his coordinators/players and expects them to perform like professionals. I am not a fan of Arians system, but think Tomlin's loyalty to his guys is admirable.....but he may have to rethink that.

Did you see the sunday night game where the Panthers have converted on 3rd and1 or 4th and 1,.,,,,15 of 17 times this season?? They did it with Williams, Stewart and Hoover too. John Fox has built a running game that I am envious of. It starts with Gross, Otah, Kalil and a physical mentality.

admirability can turn into stupidity in the blink of an eye.

DACEB
12-22-2008, 02:58 PM
Can't argue those stats, NYC.

I am extremely upset we didn't run the ball more against Tenn.. How many rushes did we have, 27-28 in all? It seems we are not dedicated to the run, and that has to fall on Tomlin.

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 03:10 PM
Can't argue those stats, NYC.

I am extremely upset we didn't run the ball more against Tenn.. How many rushes did we have, 27-28 in all? It seems we are not dedicated to the run, and that has to fall on Tomlin.

He seem to be overly dedicated to Parker which leads to not being able to be dedicated to the run because it only empowers defense's when we rush the ball now. They enjoy hitting Parker for 2 yard gains or less. All momentum on drives are killed and the defense isn't worn down in the slightest bit. But it's that dedication to Parker that also definitely has to fall on Tomlin. But then there are games which as you pointed out, the dedication to the rush is simply not even there. If we are having success passing, then they will just pass the entire game and not even bother to rush the football. It's like they try one and if that doesn't work, they try the other and they just stick to the one that works for the entire game. That's why Polamalu and Parker both "complained".

The 3rd and short stats I posted are downright scary. It doesn't just show how bad we are on 3rd and short, it shows how stupid and predictable we are on 3rd and short.

The_WARDen
12-22-2008, 03:22 PM
17 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 4:

15 times in the shotgun formation; 2 sacks, 1 interception, 1 offensive penalty, 1 defensive penalty, 3 failed passes, 7 successful passes, 2 sucessful QB rushes

On 3rd and 4 we have ran 15 pass plays on 17 attempts, we converted successfully on 7 out of 15 pass attempts and 2 out of 2 rush attempts.

14 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 3:

9 times in the shotgun formation; 1 sack, 1 offensive penalty, 4 failed passes, 6 successful passes and 2 successful rushes

On 3rd and 3 we have ran 12 pass plays on 14 attempts, we converted successfully on 6 out of 12 pass attempts and 2 out of 2 rush attempts.

24 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 2:

11 times in the shotgun formation; 5 sacks, 3 interceptions, 3 failed passes, 2 defensive penalties, 9 successful passes and 2 successful rushes.

On 3rd and 2 we have ran 20 pass plays on 24 attempts, we converted successfully on 9 out of 20 pass attempts and 2 out of 2 rush attempts.

27 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 1:

4 times in the shotgun formation; 2 sacks, 1 failed QB sneak, 3 failed passes, 7 failed rushes, 1 successful pass, 11 successful rushes, 2 successful QB sneaks.

On 3rd and 1 we have ran 6 pass plays on 27 attempts, we converted successfully on 1 out of 6 pass attempts and 13 out of 21 rush attempts.


What does this all amount to?

1. Arian's is an idiot
2. Arian's has called for shotgun 39 out of 82 times we have been faced with 3rd down and 4 or less. 15 shotgun formations on 17 3rd and 4's.
3. Arian's has called for 53 pass plays out of 82 times we have been faced with 3rd down and 4 or less.
4. We have converted 23 out of 53 pass plays on 3rd and 4 or less and have converted 19 out of 27 rush attempts on 3rd and 4 or less, the difference in rush success over pass success being clear as day yet Arian's continues to call twice as many pass plays in those 3rd and 4 or less situations.
5. 4 out of 14 of Roethlisberger's INT's have come in these situations.
6. These situations were directly responsible for the Giants and Colts losses.
7. At this point in the season Tomlin is just as guilty as Arian's for not having done anything to correct the "situation"
8. Arian's is an idiot.

Wow! Was there extra credit involved in this assignment?

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 03:38 PM
Wow! Was there extra credit involved in this assignment?

even if a few people respect and see the stats for what they are, that's all the extra credit I need :tt::tt02::tt::tt02:

MillerMania83
12-22-2008, 05:51 PM
Hey NYC SteelersFan, YOU ARE MY FREAKIN' IDOL...BRAVO man BRAVO....Those stats just say everything, THEY REALLY DO, if you really looking at them like you did....IMO, everything you have said in this thread is RIGHT ON THE $$$ if ya ask me....And you are absolutely right, it DOES SHOW the Bruce Arians is an idiot, AND coach Tomlin HAS to "shoulder" A LOT of the responsibilty for not getting things starightened out and going in the right direction, cuz right now, our O isn't even CLOSE to be going in the right direction....And wouldn;t ya know it, WOW, the ENTIRE reg season is all but gone by, and our O STILL doesn't even seem CLOSE to heading in the direction that will get us to the EVERYONE'S ULTIMATE DESTINATION...The SUPER BOWL.

I'll say it ONCE AGAIN, BA HAS TO GO!!!!

steelreserve
12-22-2008, 06:02 PM
Sounds like on 3rd-and-1, we're better off taking a delay of game penalty and giving ourselves a real chance.

Ricco Suavez
12-22-2008, 06:05 PM
While I admire the hard work in compiling these stats, there are some numbers that do not quite add up and before I bring that to everyone's attention I would like everyone to just do some in depth reading and just re-add the numbers.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-22-2008, 06:21 PM
even if a few people respect and see the stats for what they are, that's all the extra credit I need :tt::tt02::tt::tt02:

I didnt think you cared about stats from your post in the Ward thread.

I just don't care what his personal stats are or if he is even on the team, as logn as we win.http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=30336

How can you care so much about Moore's and Parkers stats........but not care at all about Hines Ward's stats??

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 06:47 PM
Hey NYC SteelersFan, YOU ARE MY FREAKIN' IDOL...BRAVO man BRAVO....Those stats just say everything, THEY REALLY DO, if you really looking at them like you did....IMO, everything you have said in this thread is RIGHT ON THE $$$ if ya ask me....And you are absolutely right, it DOES SHOW the Bruce Arians is an idiot, AND coach Tomlin HAS to "shoulder" A LOT of the responsibilty for not getting things starightened out and going in the right direction, cuz right now, our O isn't even CLOSE to be going in the right direction....And wouldn;t ya know it, WOW, the ENTIRE reg season is all but gone by, and our O STILL doesn't even seem CLOSE to heading in the direction that will get us to the EVERYONE'S ULTIMATE DESTINATION...The SUPER BOWL.

I'll say it ONCE AGAIN, BA HAS TO GO!!!!

Thank you, appreciated.

Sounds like on 3rd-and-1, we're better off taking a delay of game penalty and giving ourselves a real chance.

lol

While I admire the hard work in compiling these stats, there are some numbers that do not quite add up and before I bring that to everyone's attention I would like everyone to just do some in depth reading and just re-add the numbers.

I'm going to reread to make sure I didn't make any basic mathematical errors when summing everything up BUT the stats are all 100% accurate. I went through every single play-by-play log to compile all the stats. So if you have something, bring it to my attention.

I didnt think you cared about stats from your post in the Ward thread.

I just don't care what his personal stats are or if he is even on the team, as logn as we win.http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=30336

How can you care so much about Moore's and Parkers stats........but not care at all about Hines Ward's stats??

Personal stats Gonzo, personal stats. Ward breaking 1,000 yards for the season is meaningless at this point.

Now on the other hand, Ward getting 400 yards in 3 playoff games means hopefully we won the Superbowl.

stillers4me
12-22-2008, 06:59 PM
I don't look to getting much help in the draft for the O line. All the quality guys were gone this year when we picked and we won't be picking any higher come April. I think we're screwed.

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 07:09 PM
I don't look to getting much help in the draft for the O line. All the quality guys were gone this year when we picked and we won't be picking any higher come April. I think we're screwed.

I no nothing of college players, but there has got to be one left in the first round better than what we have. Plus I think there will be cheap free agents better than what we have. And I also think the line will automatically improve with better overall offensive coaching. A bad offensive system can ruin any offensive player like a disease, linemen are not immune.

Ricco Suavez
12-22-2008, 08:06 PM
17 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 4:

15 times in the shotgun formation; 2 sacks, 1 interception, 1 offensive penalty, 1 defensive penalty, 3 failed passes, 7 successful passes, 2 sucessful QB rushes

On 3rd and 4 we have ran 15 pass plays on 17 attempts, we converted successfully on 7 out of 15 pass attempts and 2 out of 2 rush attempts.

14 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 3:

9 times in the shotgun formation; 1 sack, 1 offensive penalty, 4 failed passes, 6 successful passes and 2 successful rushes

On 3rd and 3 we have ran 12 pass plays on 14 attempts, we converted successfully on 6 out of 12 pass attempts and 2 out of 2 rush attempts.

24 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 2:

11 times in the shotgun formation; 5 sacks, 3 interceptions, 3 failed passes, 2 defensive penalties, 9 successful passes and 2 successful rushes.

On 3rd and 2 we have ran 20 pass plays on 24 attempts, we converted successfully on 9 out of 20 pass attempts and 2 out of 2 rush attempts.

27 times the Steelers have had 3rd and 1:

4 times in the shotgun formation; 2 sacks, 1 failed QB sneak, 3 failed passes, 7 failed rushes, 1 successful pass, 11 successful rushes, 2 successful QB sneaks.

On 3rd and 1 we have ran 6 pass plays on 27 attempts, we converted successfully on 1 out of 6 pass attempts and 13 out of 21 rush attempts.


What does this all amount to?

1. Arian's is an idiot
2. Arian's has called for shotgun 39 out of 82 times we have been faced with 3rd down and 4 or less. 15 shotgun formations on 17 3rd and 4's.
3. Arian's has called for 53 pass plays out of 82 times we have been faced with 3rd down and 4 or less.
4. We have converted 23 out of 53 pass plays on 3rd and 4 or less and have converted 19 out of 27 rush attempts on 3rd and 4 or less, the difference in rush success over pass success being clear as day yet Arian's continues to call twice as many pass plays in those 3rd and 4 or less situations.
5. 4 out of 14 of Roethlisberger's INT's have come in these situations.
6. These situations were directly responsible for the Giants and Colts losses.
7. At this point in the season Tomlin is just as guilty as Arian's for not having done anything to correct the "situation"
8. Arian's is an idiot.

First off I want to say that I am in no means happy with our team's offense. Plain and simple there are issues and i am not going to pretend to know what needs to be done to fix them. I do believe WP does not appear to be the same as earlier in the year, Ben is not making the same great decisions as last year, and the O-line has been held together by bailing wire since two years ago (or longer). I am not happy with all the play calling either.

With all that said I will now look at the above stats and try to make sense of it. Now I did not compile these and if I make an error please call me on it. I just want some clarification.

First we have been in a 3rd and 4 situation 17 times with the shotgun formation being used 15 times. We have completed 7 of 10 passes with 2 sacks and 1 interception. That totals 13 drop backs not 15, now you state we had 2 successful QB runs and 1 def penalty and 1 off. penalty. There is some room for error here, let me explain. First does the defensive penalty result in a first down ,if so, that would be a successful result of the attempted pass. Was the offensive penalty a direct result of the play being a pass or something such as delay of game, or offsides, IMO you cannot bring the penalities into this equation as there is no way of gauging what the cause and effect was. Next was the QB runs designed to be part of the play or the result of breakdown by the defense. Once again can you put this as a successful run attempt or the result a designed play from the shotgun.

Now I could break these down each one here but it will be a lengthy post but by my calculations we have been successful on 23 of 50 pass attempts of 3rd downs and 4 yds or less for a percentage of 46%. We have been successful on 17 of 32 rushing attempts on 3rd downs of 4 yards or less for 53.13%.

Now take into consideration we were successful on 3rd downs of 1 yards or less running 11 of 21 times for a percentage 52%. So if you were to remove the obvious running situation that leaves the running success rate on 3rd downs of greater than 1 but 4 or less at 6 for 21 or 28.6%.

I will agree we should run more on short yardage but if you throw out all the obvious runs of 1 yard or less we have been more successful with the pass. BTW the team is 85 of 212 attempts on all 3rd down plays for the year at 40%.

stillers4me
12-22-2008, 08:09 PM
I no nothing of college players, but there has got to be one left in the first round better than what we have. Plus I think there will be cheap free agents better than what we have. And I also think the line will automatically improve with better overall offensive coaching. A bad offensive system can ruin any offensive player like a disease, linemen are not immune.

If Mendenhall proves to be everything he promises to be next year, you would have given him up for a another second rate o lineman?

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-22-2008, 08:12 PM
[QUOTE=NYC SteelersFan;505387]I no nothing of college players, but there has got to be one left in the first round better than what we have. [QUOTE]

The Bengals starting LT was available in the 3rd round and Harrison never got a sack against him.

The saints starting LG was a 5th round pick and he has been paving the way for Pierre Thomas pretty well the past few weeks. There is talent in the draft beyond pick #30 and the line should have been addressed the past few years.

Ricco Suavez
12-22-2008, 08:41 PM
There is always an argument as to the validity of stats. Some say they do not tell the whole story. Others say the proof is in the pudding. Well here are some more numbers to mull over.
Steelers offense so far this year 270 1st downs-84 by rushing-169 by passing-17 pen.
Titans offense so far this year 260 1st downs -- 105 by rushing-138 by pass-17 by pen.
Colts offense so far this year 300 1st downs --73 by rush-- 206 by pass-- 21 by penalty

The Steelers have had 1512 yards rushing on 424 attempts for an avg of 3.6
The Titans have had 2116 yards rushing on 490 attempts for an avg of 4.3
The Colts have had 1153 yards rushing on 343 attempts for an avg of 3.4

The Steelers have gave up 48 sacks have a +3 TO diff. and have a 31.34 min. time of p.
The Titans have gave up 43 sacks have a +14 TO diff and have a 29.49 minute TOP
The Colts have gave up 27 sacks have a +9 TO diff. and have a 27.59 minute TOP

Finally the Steelers rank 24th rushing-16th passing --23 overall
The Titans rank 6th rushing-- 24 passing--18th overall
The Colts rank 31st rushing-- 5th passing-- 15th overall

What can we make with these numbers? Basically any thing we want. But I will state some of my observations and you can tear this down if you like. First we are only +3 on turnovers, to me this means we are making too many mistakes because with our defense you know we have caused more than our share. Next 3.6 yds per carry is only marginally better than the Colts, it seems to me we are no longer a team capable of running 50% of the time any more. Some good news is although we are not putting up points or yards like the Colts we do control the clock, so our defense is not on the field all game as some other posters would have you believe.

From these numbers it appears we are more balanced than most would think. If we can eliminate turnovers and be more opportunistic, i still think this offense with a great defense can win it all.

tony hipchest
12-22-2008, 08:59 PM
[QUOTE=NYC SteelersFan;505387]I no nothing of college players, but there has got to be one left in the first round better than what we have. [QUOTE]

The Bengals starting LT was available in the 3rd round and Harrison never got a sack against him.

The saints starting LG was a 5th round pick and he has been paving the way for Pierre Thomas pretty well the past few weeks. There is talent in the draft beyond pick #30 and the line should have been addressed the past few years.nobody (well maybe 1) on the titans o-line was drafted higher than the 3rd round, including an udfa, i believe.

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 09:01 PM
First off I want to say that I am in no means happy with our team's offense. Plain and simple there are issues and i am not going to pretend to know what needs to be done to fix them. I do believe WP does not appear to be the same as earlier in the year, Ben is not making the same great decisions as last year, and the O-line has been held together by bailing wire since two years ago (or longer). I am not happy with all the play calling either.

With all that said I will now look at the above stats and try to make sense of it. Now I did not compile these and if I make an error please call me on it. I just want some clarification.

You're skewing stats that I spent a lot of time putting together objectively and you're skewing them to prove YOUR point. I also don't appreciate you originally posting that there was something wrong and something didn't add up as if to imply the original post was not accurate and then you come back to say, "you'll look at the stats and make sense of it".

These numbers don't require your sense, which as I will further show, is not very good. These numbers are the numbers without any subjectivity.


First we have been in a 3rd and 4 situation 17 times with the shotgun formation being used 15 times. We have completed 7 of 10 passes with 2 sacks and 1 interception.

First and foremost? 7 out of 15 pass attempts means WE WERE OBVIOUSLY GOING TO PASS, it doesn't have to be an official attempt. 15 times in shotgun, with 11 definite pass attempts because an INT does count as an offical attempt. The other 4 was 2 penalties and 2 sacks. And what do you think was the play on the 2 sacks? A rush? Roethlisberger got sacked before he had a chance to hand the ball off in the shotgun? Remove the penalties and it is 7 out of 13, not 7 out of 10.

That totals 13 drop backs not 15

They were in the SHOTGUN FORMATION 15 TIMES out of 17 times they faced 3rd and 4. Go read the play by play instead of taking my stats and making your own up out of them.

now you state we had 2 successful QB runs and 1 def penalty and 1 off. penalty. There is some room for error here, let me explain. First does the defensive penalty result in a first down ,if so, that would be a successful result of the attempted pass. Was the offensive penalty a direct result of the play being a pass or something such as delay of game, or offsides, IMO you cannot bring the penalities into this equation as there is no way of gauging what the cause and effect was.

The penalties were not counted positively or negatively but they must remain as attempts, a play was being run for a penalty to occur, thus it has to count in the total of plays run.

Next was the QB runs designed to be part of the play or the result of breakdown by the defense. Once again can you put this as a successful run attempt or the result a designed play from the shotgun.

If anything, the 2 QB rush's can be counted as failed pass attempts, which only further hurts the numbers. But in no way can you argue that the QB sneak was a successful pass play because there was NO PASS.

Now I could break these down each one here but it will be a lengthy post but by my calculations we have been successful on 23 of 50 pass attempts of 3rd downs and 4 yds or less for a percentage of 46%. We have been successful on 17 of 32 rushing attempts on 3rd downs of 4 yards or less for 53.13%.

Your calculations were pulled out of a$$. If you remove all penalties as attempts then you end up with 23 successful passes in 50 pass attempts. Now where in the hell do you get 17 for 32 rushing? Once again you removed succesful QB rushes but left the attempts. Either a gross attempt to $hit on my post or you rushed through your calculations. I think it's the first one. If you remove all QB rushes from the equation then you end up with 15 successful rushes on 22 attempts. Now go recalculate your percentages.

Now take into consideration we were successful on 3rd downs of 1 yards or less running 11 of 21 times for a percentage 52%.

13 OF 21 TIMES. The QB rushes were counted as rush attempts. If you remove the 2 successful QB rush attempts then you must also remove all 3 QB rush attempts completely from the equation, which means 11 out of 18 rush attempts were successful, that's over 60%.

So if you were to remove the obvious running situation that leaves the running success rate on 3rd downs of greater than 1 but 4 or less at 6 for 21 or 28.6%.

remove 3rd and 1 situations and we are 4 out of 4 on rushing the ball. I mean seriously, where the hell did you get these numbers? Where do you get 6 for 21 rushes if you remove 3rd and 1 situations? We have 27 total rushes and 21 of them came on 3rd and 1. And if we follow your logic of discounting QB rushes, then we have ran the ball 4 times on 3rd and 2 and 3rd and 3 for the entire season and we have converted 4 times.

I will agree we should run more on short yardage but if you throw out all the obvious runs of 1 yard or less we have been more successful with the pass. BTW the team is 85 of 212 attempts on all 3rd down plays for the year at 40%.

Please don't skew someones objective stats with nonesense. If you wanted to argue my subjective points of Arian's being an idiot and Tomlin holding responsiblity, that's fine. But to twist the numbers like that was pretty low.

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 09:02 PM
There is always an argument as to the validity of stats. Some say they do not tell the whole story. Others say the proof is in the pudding. Well here are some more numbers to mull over.
Steelers offense so far this year 270 1st downs-84 by rushing-169 by passing-17 pen.
Titans offense so far this year 260 1st downs -- 105 by rushing-138 by pass-17 by pen.
Colts offense so far this year 300 1st downs --73 by rush-- 206 by pass-- 21 by penalty

The Steelers have had 1512 yards rushing on 424 attempts for an avg of 3.6
The Titans have had 2116 yards rushing on 490 attempts for an avg of 4.3
The Colts have had 1153 yards rushing on 343 attempts for an avg of 3.4

The Steelers have gave up 48 sacks have a +3 TO diff. and have a 31.34 min. time of p.
The Titans have gave up 43 sacks have a +14 TO diff and have a 29.49 minute TOP
The Colts have gave up 27 sacks have a +9 TO diff. and have a 27.59 minute TOP

Finally the Steelers rank 24th rushing-16th passing --23 overall
The Titans rank 6th rushing-- 24 passing--18th overall
The Colts rank 31st rushing-- 5th passing-- 15th overall

What can we make with these numbers? Basically any thing we want. But I will state some of my observations and you can tear this down if you like. First we are only +3 on turnovers, to me this means we are making too many mistakes because with our defense you know we have caused more than our share. Next 3.6 yds per carry is only marginally better than the Colts, it seems to me we are no longer a team capable of running 50% of the time any more. Some good news is although we are not putting up points or yards like the Colts we do control the clock, so our defense is not on the field all game as some other posters would have you believe.

From these numbers it appears we are more balanced than most would think. If we can eliminate turnovers and be more opportunistic, i still think this offense with a great defense can win it all.

The title of the thread was 3rd and short, not "impress us with stats from NFL.com", all your stats above have nothing to do with 3rd and short.

Ricco Suavez
12-22-2008, 09:10 PM
You're skewing stats that I spent a lot of time putting together objectively and you're skewing them to prove YOUR point. I also don't appreciate you originally posting that there was something wrong and something didn't add up as if to imply the original post was not accurate and then you come back to say, "you'll look at the stats and make sense of it".

These numbers don't require your sense, which as I will further show, is not very good. These numbers are the numbers without any subjectivity.




First and foremost? 7 out of 15 pass attempts means WE WERE OBVIOUSLY GOING TO PASS, it doesn't have to be an official attempt. 15 times in shotgun, with 11 definite pass attempts because an INT does count as an offical attempt. The other 4 was 2 penalties and 2 sacks. And what do you think was the play on the 2 sacks? A rush? Roethlisberger got sacked before he had a chance to hand the ball off in the shotgun? I



They were in the SHOTGUN FORMATION 15 TIMES out of 17 times they faced 3rd and 4. Go read the play by play instead of taking my stats and making your own up out of them.



The penalties were not counted positively or negatively but they must remain as attempts, a play was being run for a penalty to occur, thus it has to count in the total of plays run.



If anything, the 2 QB rush's can be counted as failed pass attempts, which only further hurts the numbers. But in now way can you argue that the QB sneak was a successful pass play because there was NO PASS.



Your calculations were pulled out of a$$. If you remove all penalties as attempts then you end up with 23 successful passes in 50 pass attempts. Now where in the hell do you get 17 for 32 rushing? Once again you removed succesful QB rushes but left the attempts. Either a gross attempt to $hit on my post or you rushed through your calculations. I think it's the first one. If you remove all QB rushes from the equation then you end up with 15 successful rushes on 22 attempts. Now go recalculate your percentages.



13 OF 21 TIMES. The QB rushes were counted as rush attempts. If you remove the 2 successful QB rush attempts then you must also remove all 3 QB rush attempts completely from the equation, which means 11 out of 18 rush attempts were successful, that's over 60%.



remove 3rd and 1 situations and we are 4 out of 4 on rushing the ball. I mean seriously, where the hell did you get these numbers? Where do you get 6 for 21 rushes if you remove 3rd and 1 situations? We have 27 total rushes and 21 of them came on 3rd and 1. And if we follow your logic of discounting QB rushes, then we have ran the ball 4 times on 3rd and 2 and 3rd and 3 for the entire season and we have converted 4 times.



Please don't skew someones objective stats with nonesense. If you wanted to argue my subjective points of Arian's being an idiot and Tomlin holding responsiblity, that's fine. But to twist the numbers like that was pretty low.

I am sorry if I ruffled your feathers but a shotgun formation may be an obvious passing situation but it can still be a designed run. You have heard of a QB draw or an end around. And I did include interceptions and sacks as part of the passing stats.And you did include QB rushes as part of your rushing stats. Now by your reasoning if he is in the shotgun and he runs then it should be included in the passing stats, not my rule yours. If you will let me know where you got these facts then I will get back to either further my opinion or apologize.

Ricco Suavez
12-22-2008, 09:14 PM
The title of the thread was 3rd and short, not "impress us with stats from NFL.com", all your stats above have nothing to do with 3rd and short.

Just showing stats to support that we do not run the ball effective just as you implied we should run more on short yardage. The stats I posted support that we have not abandoned the run but as you can see we do not run effective. I would love the Steelers to be able to run, in doing so we could shorten the game and let Ben be more effective. Sorry if you think my reasoning is skewered but in this case i cannot agree with you.

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 09:33 PM
a shotgun formation may be an obvious passing situation but it can still be a designed run. You have heard of a QB draw or an end around. That doesn't make it a successful passing play just because they ran the ball out of the shotgun formation. That makes it a successful rushing play out of the shotgun formation.

And I did include interceptions and sacks as part of the passing stats.

First we have been in a 3rd and 4 situation 17 times with the shotgun formation being used 15 times. We have completed 7 of 10 passes with 2 sacks and 1 interception. That totals 13 drop backs not 15

It's not 7 out of 10, its 7 out of 11, you did not count the interception. 7 out of 13 pass attempts removing the 2 obviously failed pass plays which resulted in the QB rushing the football. Fine, completely remove both their success and attempts from all rushing and passing stats from the entire post JUST IN CASE they were designed QB draw plays on 3rd and 4.


And you did include QB rushes as part of your rushing stats. Now by your reasoning if he is in the shotgun and he runs then it should be included in the passing stats, not my rule yours. If you will let me know where you got these facts then I will get back to either further my opinion or apologize.

I know I incuded them, because the play resulted in a first down by means of the ball being rushed, not passed. So I counted them as rushing attempts. TO BE FAIR I also removed them from the passing stats completely because they would only hurt passing stats further by counting as a failed pass attempt, so they were not counted as passing stats with completely objective reasoning.

The stats came from play-by-play drive charts off of sportsline.com. No need to appologize, no hard feelings at all, Just be 100% sure of your numbers and calculations before attempting to correct my numbers and calculations.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 04:11 AM
Ricco Suavez, I appologize if you weren't purposely skewing the stats and you simply made errors.

revefsreleets
12-23-2008, 11:24 AM
Gosh, if only YOU'D run the offense, I'm sure we'd be averaging 48 points a game.

Retarded. 20/20 hindsight bullshit.

BozMan
12-23-2008, 04:39 PM
While it often seems like that we do not have the personnel to run on 3rd and short, the stats show that we have more success running in those situations than passing. So... despite the piss poor run blocking of the OL, we ought to start running it more on 3rd and short.

Parker seems to lack the burst and explosiveness that he had in years past and early this season. That argues in favor of more carries for Moore and Russell.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 08:02 PM
Gosh, if only YOU'D run the offense, I'm sure we'd be averaging 48 points a game.

Retarded. 20/20 hindsight bullshit.

Your majesty! Blast it, you have found my thread. I thought I could attempt to form a thought in secrecy without being scolded by your Almighty wisdom. Please accept my apology your excellency.

lilyoder6
12-23-2008, 09:42 PM
hind-sight does have a lot of affect in this...

obv our running game has not been that good since the texans game so it would be hard 2 just line up and smash it thru the middle...

Preacher
12-23-2008, 09:51 PM
hind-sight does have a lot of affect in this...

obv our running game has not been that good since the texans game so it would be hard 2 just line up and smash it thru the middle...


Shhhhhhh Don't let reason settle in to what should be "steeler football"

MACH1
12-23-2008, 09:54 PM
Gosh, if only YOU'D run the offense, I'm sure we'd be averaging 48 points a game.

Retarded. 20/20 hindsight bullshit.

But it always works on Madden. :chuckle:

lilyoder6
12-23-2008, 10:26 PM
Shhhhhhh Don't let reason settle in to what should be "steeler football"

:banging: awww... can i catch my words b4 they go 2 far?

NYC SteelersFan
12-24-2008, 03:06 AM
Shhhhhhh Don't let reason settle in to what should be "steeler football"

No Preacher we'll just attempt to run a pass first/pass happy offense without any big threat receivers and with all 10 pass plays that Cowher had written into his playbook with crayons that Tomlin and Arian's keep trying to run over and over again.

But it always works on Madden. :chuckle:

coolest quip of the day!

augustashark
12-24-2008, 03:40 AM
No Preacher we'll just attempt to run a pass first/pass happy offense without any big threat receivers and with all 10 pass plays that Cowher had written into his playbook with crayons that Tomlin and Arian's keep trying to run over and over again.



coolest quip of the day!

Here is the main problem I have with you NYC. Earlier today you said that Tomlin was given a team with a Fanchise QB, WR and TE, then in the post above you say we have no "big threat receivers". Now I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but you can't have it both ways.

NYC SteelersFan
12-24-2008, 03:54 AM
Here is the main problem I have with you NYC. Earlier today you said that Tomlin was given a team with a Fanchise QB, WR and TE, then in the post above you say we have no "big threat receivers". Now I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but you can't have it both ways.

Just because Ward and Miller are franchise players, doesn't mean that either one is a big threat receiver. Ward is a franchise WR but his biggest asset is his ability to block, not run 50 yards down field and catch TD bombs. You know that, I know you know that, you know you know that, why are you trying to make it seem like something else? He's a franchise WR because he is an all around "very good" receiver while being "great" at blocking, but he's not a "big threat receiver" aka Moss, Owens, Andre Johnson, Chad Johnson, Burress etc. etc.

NYC SteelersFan
12-24-2008, 03:58 AM
The main problem you have with me is that you think Parker is a "great" running back while I don't think he is anything more than a "good" running back. You think that the Steelers running game for the last 4 years is a product of Willie Parker while I think that Willie Parker is simply a product of a great Steelers rush scheme.

augustashark
12-24-2008, 04:06 AM
LOL, you tell preacher that we have a pass first O without a any big threat receivers, yet the best passing O the past 5 years has come from a team that did'nt have a big threat until last year. It's all execution. You can pass the ball 70% of the time if you execute and have the proper scheme.

NYC SteelersFan
12-24-2008, 04:14 AM
LOL, you tell preacher that we have a pass first O without a any big threat receivers, yet the best passing O the past 5 years has come from a team that did'nt have a big threat until last year. It's all execution. You can pass the ball 70% of the time if you execute and have the proper scheme.

Where do you come up with your stats? Do you even look at stats? How do you claim certain things without any shread of truth behind it? The patriots had the best Passing offense of the last 5 years? Really?

Patriots passing offense:

2006-12th in the league
2005-2nd in the league
2004-11th in the league
2003-9th in the league

2007 with RANDALL GENE MOSS-1st in the league

Now please try to explain the bolded portion of your quoted statement.

augustashark
12-24-2008, 04:32 AM
Where do you come up with your stats? Do you even look at stats? How do you claim certain things without any shread of truth behind it? The patriots had the best Passing offense of the last 5 years? Really?

Patriots passing offense:

2006-12th in the league
2005-2nd in the league
2004-11th in the league
2003-9th in the league

2007 with RANDALL GENE MOSS-1st in the league

Now please try to explain the bolded portion of your quoted statement.

Your a STATS guy thats ok, I am however a results guy. IT'S ALL ABOUT SB'S BABY!

Also don't think for a moment that Welker did not make a huge difference in the pass game last year.

I don't care what your stats above tell you, all I know is that NE has had the best passing game for the last 5 years. Results tells me that. They are a pass first team IMO and they do it very very well and had trash WR'S for many years.

BTW:

Passing leaders since 2003.

2003-Colts, what did that get them having all those yards
2004-Colts, see above
2005-Cardinals, LOL
2006-Saints, SB champs YEA!

stats shmats. Give me results.

augustashark
12-24-2008, 04:36 AM
The main problem you have with me is that you think Parker is a "great" running back while I don't think he is anything more than a "good" running back. You think that the Steelers running game for the last 4 years is a product of Willie Parker while I think that Willie Parker is simply a product of a great Steelers rush scheme.

I don't think Parker is a "great" RB, I do however think he is a good RB and has helped our team for the last 4 years. This year not so much, but he is our go to guy and nothing you or I say will change that fact.

I still believe that Parker gives us the best chance of winning.

augustashark
12-24-2008, 05:49 AM
Also on the whole NE passing game debate I give you this tidbit.

The New England Patriots, in their three championship seasons, had two 100-yard rushers in nine playoff games.

Steelers & I
12-24-2008, 06:42 AM
Also on the whole NE passing game debate I give you this tidbit.

The New England Patriots, in their three championship seasons, had two 100-yard rushers in nine playoff games.

..........................next page, sorry, I screwed this reply up.

Steelers & I
12-24-2008, 06:43 AM
Also on the whole NE passing game debate I give you this tidbit.

The New England Patriots, in their three championship seasons, had two 100-yard rushers in nine playoff games.

Ahh, you just got that tibit from a recent article that was just posted, "Starkey: Do Steelers need to run"? I saw it too.

augustashark
12-24-2008, 06:58 AM
Ahh, you just got that tibit from a recent article that was just posted, "Starkey: Do Steelers need to run"? I saw it too.

Does it change the point?

revefsreleets
12-24-2008, 09:30 AM
buh-bye NYC. It was only amatter of time...but I'm sure we'll see you again soon...

Hammer67
12-24-2008, 09:38 AM
Just because Ward and Miller are franchise players, doesn't mean that either one is a big threat receiver. Ward is a franchise WR but his biggest asset is his ability to block, not run 50 yards down field and catch TD bombs. You know that, I know you know that, you know you know that, why are you trying to make it seem like something else? He's a franchise WR because he is an all around "very good" receiver while being "great" at blocking, but he's not a "big threat receiver" aka Moss, Owens, Andre Johnson, Chad Johnson, Burress etc. etc.

Where did you get your definition of "franchise" player? Just curious.

I find it humorous that people still need to complain this much when your team is 2nd seed in the AFC, I would be happy as shit, and I am. Trust me, I live in Detroit, man, and Lions fans are all laughing at you right now.

You guys need to chill. You sound like my grandfather who bitches and complains about EVERYTHING, even when they won the Super Bowl he was bitching that they sucked. I can't even watch a game with him anymore...he knows EVERYTHING about football, and if you were to believe him, you would think he was Lombardi.

Jesus, shut up, have a beer and enjoy another year of playoff football in the Steel City.

Steeldude
12-24-2008, 12:40 PM
why was NYC banned? is it temporary or permanent?

43Hitman
12-24-2008, 02:12 PM
buh-bye NYC. It was only amatter of time...but I'm sure we'll see you again soon...


Sha-na-nah-na Nah-na-Nah-na Heyaah Gooodbyyyee

:rofl:

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-24-2008, 02:27 PM
why was NYC banned? is it temporary or permanent?

:noidea:

The kid liked to argue and often skewed whatever stats he could find to enhance his point(Moore better than Parker), but I never saw him say anything, like calling somebody a derrogatory name??

43Hitman
12-24-2008, 02:44 PM
why was NYC banned? is it temporary or permanent?

The reason may have been deleted. Like cussing some one out or something.

stillers4me
12-24-2008, 03:47 PM
Jesus, shut up, have a beer and enjoy another year of playoff football in the Steel City.

:thumbsup: I wish I had said that.

Certain people just don't want to let anybody enjoy it, though.

43Hitman
12-24-2008, 03:56 PM
:thumbsup: I wish I had said that.

Certain people just don't want to let anybody enjoy it, though.

Misery loves company.:coffee:

Steelers & I
12-24-2008, 06:16 PM
Sha-na-nah-na Nah-na-Nah-na Heyaah Gooodbyyyee

:rofl:


He'll be back, if he's not already here under an assumed name. I'm sure hope that the post causing the ban WAS deleted because I haven't read anything from him that was deserving of banishment.

Wow, I was about to make a donation to the site but I think that I'll reconsider it now. If NYC was banned for merely arguing his point, then screw that.

stillers4me
12-24-2008, 06:32 PM
He'll be back, if he's not already here under an assumed name. I'm sure hope that the post causing the ban WAS deleted because I haven't read anything from him that was deserving of banishment.

Wow, I was about to make a donation to the site but I think that I'll reconsider it now. If NYC was banned for merely arguing his point, then screw that.

Nobody gets banned for arguing their point.

You do get banned for name calling or trying to turn a discussion forum into the Blast Furnace. There is a line and it does get crossed. Being a mod is a thankless job around here.

So thank you, mods. :drink:

Steelers & I
12-24-2008, 09:21 PM
Nobody gets banned for arguing their point.

You do get banned for name calling or trying to turn a discussion forum into the Blast Furnace. There is a line and it does get crossed. Being a mod is a thankless job around here.

So thank you, mods. :drink:


Yeah, we definitely need mods but I've seen quite a bit of name calling around here with no bans being imposed. :noidea:

HometownGal
12-24-2008, 10:31 PM
Yeah, we definitely need mods but I've seen quite a bit of name calling around here with no bans being imposed. :noidea:

Not that I feel you are owed an explanation as to why a member is banned, S & I, but because I'm feelin' jolly tonight, here's a few little tidbits for ya. When a member adds virtually nothing but negativity, constantly questions mine and Gary's integrity and fairness around here, and B & M's when a poison dart is fired back at him after he fired the initial shot - I'd say the ban is justified and I'll leave it at that.

Steelers & I
12-25-2008, 05:05 AM
Not that I feel you are owed an explanation as to why a member is banned, S & I, but because I'm feelin' jolly tonight, here's a few little tidbits for ya. When a member adds virtually nothing but negativity, constantly questions mine and Gary's integrity and fairness around here, and B & M's when a poison dart is fired back at him after he fired the initial shot - I'd say the ban is justified and I'll leave it at that.


Well it is Christmas, lol. Thanks for explaining.

Not being a smart A$$ but who's Gary? I feel that I should know just in case he chews me out. That way I'll know not to question him.

Hammer67
12-25-2008, 01:16 PM
Not that I feel you are owed an explanation as to why a member is banned, S & I, but because I'm feelin' jolly tonight, here's a few little tidbits for ya. When a member adds virtually nothing but negativity, constantly questions mine and Gary's integrity and fairness around here, and B & M's when a poison dart is fired back at him after he fired the initial shot - I'd say the ban is justified and I'll leave it at that.

People forget that forums aren't democracies! LOL!
So, play by Mod's rules or you lose. Plus, I have found that strictly run forums tend to be the best with the most repeat business. Not that anyone here is overly strict...we get away with a lot that other boards don't. We can talk politics, religion and about any other hot topic. By banning trolls and flamers, we keep the discourse intelligent and polite, yet heated at times. It makes for much more interesting discussion and strengthens our little board relationships.

:hatsoff:

HometownGal
12-25-2008, 05:58 PM
Well it is Christmas, lol. Thanks for explaining.

Not being a smart A$$ but who's Gary? I feel that I should know just in case he chews me out. That way I'll know not to question him.

Gary is the other evil doer around here - a/k/a fansince'76. :chuckle:

Look - we really do give everyone a fair shot around here and I think I can speak for Gary here and say that we don't like to ban anyone unless they are trolls or shit-stirrers. I usually give a friendly warning - usually several - if I feel a member is going a bit overboard. We didn't make the rules around here, but we are asked to enforce them as best we can.

Don't know if Mike is going to give us an increase in our wages next year and get us the 401(k) and full health benefits we asked for. :noidea::chuckle:

I apologize if my last post came across as "snarky" - that wasn't my intention. I just get tired of Gary and I busting our asses around here to try to make the forums as enjoyable for every member as possible, only to have our integrity and actions questioned - especially by new members. Unfortunately, as Mods, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't - it's the nature of the beast.

Hope you and yours are having a very Merry Christmas! :drink: