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View Full Version : How to fix the offense?


The_WARDen
12-22-2008, 09:39 AM
Does anyone have any realistic ways they can fix this offense?

I'm trying to see pull something positive from their performances over the past month and other than Ben's working a couple of great driives in the last 5 minutes, there isn't much.

How could they have gotten this bad at running the ball? Is there a way to fix it...I noticed the 3 TE set at the goal line but then even that got blown up.

I don't mean for this to turn into a Willie sux / Ben sux thread, I want some reason to believe that this offense can be better against a quality defense.

The way I see right now, I pray they play the Broncos in the divisional round...

FacemeIke
12-22-2008, 09:58 AM
I'm not sure if it would work or not, but I would like to see us run more screen passes to get Willie in the open field. Also, I think we need to look down field more in our passing game. The only pattern we run deep seems to be a fly route down the sideline (like the TD pass to Holmes). Our OLine may not allow us to, but itd be nice to see us run some posts or out and ups or something of that nature in the 15-25 yrd downfield range. IMO

TackleMeBen
12-22-2008, 10:01 AM
start by getting decent OLine men to play.. ours suck!!! i dont know if they thought it would be ok the way it was or what, but it definately isnt working and they are going to get ben killed, i dont want to see our star qb taken out on a stretcher

The_WARDen
12-22-2008, 10:43 AM
start by getting decent OLine men to play.. ours suck!!! i dont know if they thought it would be ok the way it was or what, but it definately isnt working and they are going to get ben killed, i dont want to see our star qb taken out on a stretcher

while I agree whole heartedly that this Oline is abyssmal, unfortunately it can't be replaced in 3 weeks...

:helmet:

Steel12
12-22-2008, 10:51 AM
We can start by reminding Ben to take care of the ball...He's killing us! We will only go as far as he takes us.

revefsreleets
12-22-2008, 11:11 AM
I'd say this:

Let's commit to running the ball 30 times next week. Let's run the Pony offense with Parker and Russell in the same backfield. Let's run Parker to the edge and Russell up the middle. Let's use Moore as a 3rd down back exclusively. If we cannot run the ball effectively in that scenario, then we know we will be a pass first team in the playoffs and lets plan accordingly.

Steel12
12-22-2008, 11:14 AM
I'd say this:

Let's commit to running the ball 30 times next week. Let's run the Pony offense with Parker and Russell in the same backfield. Let's run Parker to the edge and Russell up the middle. Let's use Moore as a 3rd down back exclusively. If we cannot run the ball effectively in that scenario, then we know we will be a pass first team in the playoffs and lets plan accordingly.

If we commit to doing that, I think Moore needs at least half of those carries. He's runnin the ball better right now.

revefsreleets
12-22-2008, 11:21 AM
You are ignoring what I'm saying. Parker is faster, and Russell is stronger, while Moore is the better blocking/catching back. The above scenario plays to each RB's individual strength. When things break down, the best way to correct it is to simplify, return for first principles.

Steel12
12-22-2008, 11:23 AM
You are ignoring what I'm saying. Parker is faster, and Russell is stronger, while Moore is the better blocking/catching back. The above scenario plays to each RB's individual strength. When things break down, the best way to correct it is to simplify, return for first principles.

I saw what you typed but why go back to first principles when it's obvious Willie isn't Willie right now? The Fact is that Moore is running the ball better and he gives us the best chance to win.

revefsreleets
12-22-2008, 11:34 AM
If we start giving a situational back 25 carries a game he's going to get hurt, and then he'll be of no use to us at all. "Willie is not Willie" because we are running up the middle, and we just aren't blocking well enough to do that. At least Russell may be able to shed some tacklers.

Steel12
12-22-2008, 11:37 AM
Have you forgotten the games that he wasn't a situational back for us? He played very well in Willie's absence. Even when Willie runs off tackle or sweeps he doesn't get the yards he usually gets. Moore deserves more carries.

revefsreleets
12-22-2008, 11:40 AM
The thread asked for possible solutions. I offered one, and a reasonable one that doesn't ask for retarded things like firing our OC or benching our starting QB right before the playoffs.

Steel12
12-22-2008, 11:43 AM
lol I was just offering my opinion of your opinion...don't mind me, I voted for Obama :)

lilyoder6
12-22-2008, 11:56 AM
thats actually not a bad plan there rev.. just force the running game onto our o-line to make them block better...

but adding to that.. i would def like 2 see more screens to the rb, not just heath... that shovel pass yesterday to moore was good, and should do more of that...

The_WARDen
12-22-2008, 11:58 AM
I would like to see the Parker/FB set ( in this case Russell I guess)....

I think running more no huddle would help also, kinda like what Jim Kelly ran (K-gun or whatever) where they called the play at the line....maybe like what Peyton does without all the hand gesturing...

One thing I say the Titans do effectively was throw to the TE towards the sidelines...

Steeldude
12-22-2008, 12:00 PM
How could they have gotten this bad at running the ball?

i have been saying since 2002 that the steelers need to focus on the O-line's talent/future instead of neglecting it and hoping 4th, 5th and 6th round picks work out.

if you can't run the ball or protect the QB, you aren't going to have a consistent offense. the steelers defense is playing very good, but it appears to be a waste of time. the steelers could very well lose a game 6 - 0 in the post-season.

revefsreleets
12-22-2008, 12:01 PM
It's pretty much all about just saying "Goddamnit, we're going to run the football this week" and doing it. If we can't run against the Browns we aren't going to be able to run against anyone, but, unlike the teams we will play in the playoffs, if we can't run against Cleveland we'll still beat them by a couple TD's because they suck so bad.

Now, of course some of the more negative people will bitch about it and complain that we are running too much, even though that would be the whole point, but those people are going to bitch no matter what.

T.Richardson
12-22-2008, 12:19 PM
I actually applaud Arians for trying to get the running game going, but it didnt happen. Moore needs more carries, but Parker doesnt need to be benched.

devilsdancefloor
12-22-2008, 12:34 PM
Arians needs to stop trying to run that delayed draw! i agree with rev when things go bad go back to basics!

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-22-2008, 12:46 PM
I'd say this:

Let's commit to running the ball 30 times next week. Let's run the Pony offense with Parker and Russell in the same backfield. Let's run Parker to the edge and Russell up the middle. Let's use Moore as a 3rd down back exclusively. If we cannot run the ball effectively in that scenario, then we know we will be a pass first team in the playoffs and lets plan accordingly.

I like it!!!

The current problem is that the offense is telegraphing the run plays with the slow developing draws and not having a FB leaves one less blocker at the point of attack on off tackle plays. With a "pony" backfield, it lends itself to quick hitters and multiple options of running the ball either left or right. With that said, your O-linemen dont need to get a push, but merely an angle and seal the defender to create a rush lane.

I like the idea of Parker-Russell or Parker-Moore in either set. I realistically hope it comes out in the playoffs. Nobody has film on the Steelers doing it, so no need to make some this weekend.

Dino 6 Rings
12-22-2008, 12:50 PM
I'd say this:

Let's commit to running the ball 30 times next week. Let's run the Pony offense with Parker and Russell in the same backfield. Let's run Parker to the edge and Russell up the middle. Let's use Moore as a 3rd down back exclusively. If we cannot run the ball effectively in that scenario, then we know we will be a pass first team in the playoffs and lets plan accordingly.

I agree, run it 30 times or more. I don't care who carries it more, just run the effing ball especially on short yardage situations.

stlrtruck
12-22-2008, 01:40 PM
I agree, run it 30 times or more. I don't care who carries it more, just run the effing ball especially on short yardage situations.

Run it but damn whoever touches the ball run like you've got some authority and bowl people over.....





ahhh, if we only had John Kuhn!!! :wave:

The_WARDen
12-22-2008, 02:08 PM
While running the ball would actually be a refreshing change of pace, do you think that solves their problems?

I know Ben has the reputation for holding onto the ball too long, but is that because he's trying to make the big play all the time or is it that maybe this group of WRs just aren't good enough at getting seperation?

Blonde Bomber
12-22-2008, 02:11 PM
I'd say this:

Let's commit to running the ball 30 times next week. Let's run the Pony offense with Parker and Russell in the same backfield. Let's run Parker to the edge and Russell up the middle. Let's use Moore as a 3rd down back exclusively. If we cannot run the ball effectively in that scenario, then we know we will be a pass first team in the playoffs and lets plan accordingly.

I totally agree!!! Maybe we can avoid seeing that fat ass doing a belly flop on to Ben again.

GodofGridiron
12-22-2008, 02:30 PM
You are ignoring what I'm saying. Parker is faster, and Russell is stronger, while Moore is the better blocking/catching back. The above scenario plays to each RB's individual strength. When things break down, the best way to correct it is to simplify, return for first principles.

Parker is one dimenisional. He does one thing very well though--accelerates. What he doesnt bring is great vision or field awareness. He also doesnt possess great cutback ability or change of direction and this has to do with him not having very fluid movement of his hips. The good/great ones did......like Sanders, Smith, Allen and even some today like Peterson and LT. It takes many intangibles to make a great running back and right now theres a million guys that can get to point B from point A in a quick second. But if you can navigate congestion, and read gaps and have a feel for where the openings/space is then if u can get in the open field you will have success. Willie is only effective when theres an obvious hole and if there is congestion around the hole he will get tripped up because he doesnt run legs high, so thats why you notice Willie gets tripped up with arm tackles often.

T.Richardson
12-22-2008, 02:33 PM
I wish Mendenhall didnt get injured, could have seen what he could do.

The_WARDen
12-22-2008, 02:35 PM
I wish Mendenhall didnt get injured, could have seen what he could do.

well, we know he gets injured...

:flap:

I'm kidding...

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-22-2008, 02:55 PM
I wish Mendenhall didnt get injured, could have seen what he could do. Still wondering what the problem is with Moore.

He is averaging 4.2 yds per carry and 4.9 yds/carry on 1st down.

T.Richardson
12-22-2008, 03:00 PM
Still wondering what the problem is with Moore.

He is averaging 4.2 yds per carry and 4.9 yds/carry on 1st down.

No problem with Moore, hes been doing great, he should have more carries.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-22-2008, 03:07 PM
No problem with Moore, hes been doing great, he should have more carries. Wondering why with the title of this thread more people dont see that answer. Seemed obvious to me even before Sunday.

Dino 6 Rings
12-22-2008, 03:10 PM
Wondering why with the title of this thread more people dont see that answer. Seemed obvious to me even before Sunday.

You should call the coaches and tell them.

The_WARDen
12-22-2008, 03:13 PM
You should call the coaches and tell them.

in fairness, the coaches don't appear to have an answer either...else they'd fix it.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-22-2008, 03:34 PM
in fairness, the coaches don't appear to have an answer either...else they'd fix it.

Right. Will someone tell the coaches that the Steelers are getting 112 yds/game from MM and 68 yds/gm from FWP.

Seriously. Why dont they know this? The disparity is large and obvious.

"We need to get Willie Parker to be Willie Parker, and we need to block for him," Arians said.

What?

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 05:26 PM
I'd say this:

Let's commit to running the ball 30 times next week. Let's run the Pony offense with Parker and Russell in the same backfield. Let's run Parker to the edge and Russell up the middle. Let's use Moore as a 3rd down back exclusively. If we cannot run the ball effectively in that scenario, then we know we will be a pass first team in the playoffs and lets plan accordingly.

You are ignoring what I'm saying. Parker is faster, and Russell is stronger, while Moore is the better blocking/catching back. The above scenario plays to each RB's individual strength. When things break down, the best way to correct it is to simplify, return for first principles.

If we start giving a situational back 25 carries a game he's going to get hurt, and then he'll be of no use to us at all. "Willie is not Willie" because we are running up the middle, and we just aren't blocking well enough to do that. At least Russell may be able to shed some tacklers.

The thread asked for possible solutions. I offered one, and a reasonable one that doesn't ask for retarded things like firing our OC or benching our starting QB right before the playoffs.

SO IT HAS BEEN SAID, SO IT SHALL BE WRITTEN!

Problem solved, mods, close this thread up.

Makaveli
12-22-2008, 05:43 PM
The thread asked for possible solutions. I offered one, and a reasonable one that doesn't ask for retarded things like firing our OC or benching our starting QB right before the playoffs.


And why not bench your starting QB if he is VERY detrimental to the success of the entire team ? Simply because he's paid an excessive amount of money ? Or is it to please a particular demographic of fans that relate to him ? Or is it a matter of continuity,...which remains and has been nonexistent on offense all year ?

Because it certainly cannot be because of productivity.

steelreserve
12-22-2008, 06:25 PM
And why not bench your starting QB if he is VERY detrimental to the success of the entire team ? Simply because he's paid an excessive amount of money ? Or is it to please a particular demographic of fans that relate to him ? Or is it a matter of continuity,...which remains and has been nonexistent on offense all year ?

Because it certainly cannot be because of productivity.

It's because he's been the most steady quarterback we've had for something like 25 years. You suffer through a dozen or so imbeciles who seem to inexplicably skip the ball to their receivers on one hop every time a key situation comes up, and you'd be hesitant to yank the one guy who's been better than that too.

Leftwich is far better than any backup we've had for a long time, but he was a one-year insurance policy and we were very lucky to get him at that price. There's no way we'll be able to afford keeping him past this season, and next year he'll probably be starting for someone else. So starting a late-season QB controversy would be pretty disastrous, not to mention pointless.

NYC SteelersFan
12-22-2008, 08:01 PM
It's because he's been the most steady quarterback we've had for something like 25 years. You suffer through a dozen or so imbeciles who seem to inexplicably skip the ball to their receivers on one hop every time a key situation comes up, and you'd be hesitant to yank the one guy who's been better than that too.

Leftwich is far better than any backup we've had for a long time, but he was a one-year insurance policy and we were very lucky to get him at that price. There's no way we'll be able to afford keeping him past this season, and next year he'll probably be starting for someone else. So starting a late-season QB controversy would be pretty disastrous, not to mention pointless.

And however great of a backup Leftwich is, he is not better than Roethlisberger and the extra time his delivery takes behind this o-line is a disaster waiting to happen regardless.

GridironWarrior
12-22-2008, 08:05 PM
I don't know why Essex isn't given a chance. He can't be worse than what's out there already.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-22-2008, 08:09 PM
I don't know why Essex isn't given a chance. He can't be worse than what's out there already.
Oh yes he can!

43Hitman
12-22-2008, 09:00 PM
The real problem here is that no matter who we have running the ball is going to have a rough go of it. Our O-line sucks bottom line. I know they are faceless and an easy cop out right. The Titans owned that line all day with only 4 guys. Two of which were back-ups. And Kearse is a has-been. So until we get better up front it won't matter who we have running the ball. MM or Willie or Bettis or Franco or Cambell or Sanders or any other good back.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-22-2008, 09:04 PM
Here is another surprising and revealing stat.

Hines Ward isnt the only Steeler with a shot at 1000 yards.

Mewelde Moore needs 125 yards from scrimmage to reach 1000 yards rushing/receiving.

SteelerFanInTX210
12-22-2008, 10:33 PM
If tomlin doesnt overhaul the offensive line this year in free agency and draft im going to shoot myself in the damn face, the oline imo is the only freakin problem we have on this team, we are stacked at qb rb wr te dl lb cb fs ss, maybe get younger on the d line too but that is absolutely it what do you think>?

steelreserve
12-22-2008, 10:41 PM
If tomlin doesnt overhaul the offensive line this year in free agency and draft im going to shoot myself in the damn face, the oline imo is the only freakin problem we have on this team, we are stacked at qb rb wr te dl lb cb fs ss, maybe get younger on the d line too but that is absolutely it what do you think>?

Pretty much! Except I worry that Harrison's gone after next year, so we're going to have to keep after the LB corps as always. I have my concerns about RB as well, but if Mendenhall stays healthy next year hopefully that works itself out too. Yeah, other than that and the line, I really like the shape we're in. Even if we do nothing except stay as good as we currently are, we'll have an excellent shot every year with our core group of guys.

lilyoder6
12-22-2008, 10:46 PM
B.A does like to run those delayed draws A LOT.. maybe 1 or 2 a qtr or half is fine but not half of the rushing carries...

but it also seems that we have a lot of success in the trips bunch set... could use that more often as a passing formation

xbroughneck
12-22-2008, 11:00 PM
The real problem here is that no matter who we have running the ball is going to have a rough go of it. Our O-line sucks bottom line. I know they are faceless and an easy cop out right. The Titans owned that line all day with only 4 guys. Two of which were back-ups. And Kearse is a has-been. So until we get better up front it won't matter who we have running the ball. MM or Willie or Bettis or Franco or Cambell or Sanders or any other good back.

When you guys talk about how poor our offensive line blocks, are you including the Tight Ends?

Really, it's been the Tight Ends this season getting their @$$es handed to them, and Bruce ARians uses a lot of run plays with two tight ends run blocking.

He believes in it, but Spaeth sucks as a run blocker, and Miller is average at best.

Pi Kapp Steeler
12-23-2008, 01:53 AM
We need to do alot of screens, cause our Oline sucks.

Alot of bootlegs, i personally think Ben is better outside the lines, and he can pick up a few yards on his feet(if he holds on to the ball)

Reverses, with holmes

Fake Reverses

Quick slants

More TE involvement in the passing game.

Basically everything that Arians hasnt done will help the Offense.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 02:56 AM
The real problem here is that no matter who we have running the ball is going to have a rough go of it. Our O-line sucks bottom line. I know they are faceless and an easy cop out right. The Titans owned that line all day with only 4 guys. Two of which were back-ups. And Kearse is a has-been. So until we get better up front it won't matter who we have running the ball. MM or Willie or Bettis or Franco or Cambell or Sanders or any other good back. NOOOOOOO!!!

This is simply not true. Moore is averaging 4.2 yds/carry, 90 yds/game as a starter and the Steelers run game has been somewhere between good and very good with MM in the backfield.

Its a fact.

augustashark
12-23-2008, 03:28 AM
And however great of a backup Leftwich is, he is not better than Roethlisberger and the extra time his delivery takes behind this o-line is a disaster waiting to happen regardless.

Holy cow, you just answered your own question on the whole Moore thing! LOL

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 03:38 AM
Holy cow, you just answered your own question on the whole Moore thing! LOL

We've seen Leftwich start for more than 1 full season. No one has seen Moore start for more than half a season on a Minnesota team that was rebuilding. We know what Leftwich is fully capable of, we don't know what Moore is completely capable of.

Here is the other key split between the two situations. I KNOW that Roethlisberger is a top 5 QB. You THINK Parker is a top 5 RB. Not even when he was actually good for 3 years was he ever a top 5 RB. And don't tell me he was 5th in yards in 2007. He was fifth in yards but not in yard per carry and he had 2 TD's that year, 2 TD's.

augustashark
12-23-2008, 03:40 AM
We've seen Leftwich start for more than 1 full season. No one has seen Moore start for more than half a season on a Minnesota team that was rebuilding. We know what Leftwich is fully capable of, we don't know what Moore is completely capable of.

Here is the other key split between the two situations. I KNOW that Roethlisberger is a top 5 QB. You THINK Parker is a top 5 RB. Not even when he was actually good for 3 years was he ever a top 5 RB. And don't tell me he was 5th in yards in 2007. He was fifth in yards but not in yard per carry and he had 2 TD's that year, 2 TD's.

Not going to sit and split hairs with you tonight, but we don't need to see Moore for a year to know what he is or what he gives you as a starter. Once a backup always a backup.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 03:43 AM
Once a backup always a backup.

Wish someone would've said that about Parker. Too bad Cowher had a talent for turning $hit into gold. But he's gone now and the gold has turned back into $hit.

augustashark
12-23-2008, 03:56 AM
I thought we could agree that if you're a backup your rookie season does'nt mean you are a backup. Oh well. Moore gives us no greater chance of winning then Paker. Get used to it, nothing you say or do will change that.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 04:15 AM
Oh well. Moore gives us no greater chance of winning then Paker. Get used to it, nothing you say or do will change that.

For as long as our head coach stubbornly/stupidly sticks with a useless RB cause he's "his guy", then yes Moore gives us no greater chance of winning. And I agree 100% that nothing I say or do will change that.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 04:21 AM
I thought we could agree that if you're a backup your rookie season does'nt mean you are a backup. Oh well. Moore gives us no greater chance of winning then Paker. Get used to it, nothing you say or do will change that. Well that some real genius right there.

So let me add Priest Holmes, Tiki Barber, Brian Westbrook, Michael Turner, Deangelo Williams, Marion Barber and Larry ohnson to the list of once a backup always a backup.

Oh, and Tom Brady and Steve Young are backups and poor Kurt Warner isnt even a backup, he is a grocery bagger.

:doh:

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 04:47 AM
Not going to sit and split hairs with you tonight, but we don't need to see Moore for a year to know what he is or what he gives you as a starter. Once a backup always a backup. Oh and what does Moore give you as a starter.

You might want to check Moores career stats with 15+ touches.

lamberts-lost-tooth
12-23-2008, 04:56 AM
Oh and what does Moore give you as a starter.

You might want to check Moores career stats with 15+ touches.

Since we are all already aware that our running game is missing something....and we obviously are not going to be picking up a player in week 17....Why dont you do some research on college prospects and come back with stats on who would be a good back for our system in the coming draft?

I can promise you that you would get better feedback and it really would be appreciated.

augustashark
12-23-2008, 04:56 AM
Well that some real genius right there.

So let me add Priest Holmes, Tiki Barber, Brian Westbrook, Michael Turner, Deangelo Williams, Marion Barber and Larry ohnson to the list of once a backup always a backup.

Oh, and Tom Brady and Steve Young are backups and poor Kurt Warner isnt even a backup, he is a grocery bagger.

:doh:
Ever heard the phrase, exception not the rule. GENIUS.

Holmes, Barber and Westbrook are good backs, but for every backup that had a decent career I can name you ten that did'nt.

Turner, Williams, Barber and johnson have not proven over time that they can be the man. time will tell.

BTW, what I mean by once a backup always a backup is that you have to be a backup for a few years. Hell most players start as backups until they learn the pro game and can adjust.

Your QB example is GENIUS!

And as far as your GENIUS, you are the one calling for a 3rd down back to become our starter. LOL, well done.

I did'nt think SF allowed people to pimp their own website, but you seem to get away with it. One thing is for sure you won't get many members from here with your antics.
:doh:

augustashark
12-23-2008, 05:03 AM
Oh and what does Moore give you as a starter.

You might want to check Moores career stats with 15+ touches.

Then why did'nt Minn make him the future and pay him the big bucks? Why did Minn sign another backup from Baltimore to be the starter?

You and NYC keep talking about STATS. Let me break it down for you GENIUS, when Moore is in the game the D is going to respect the Pass a lot more then when Willie is in the game. Just basic gameplaning. If it's 2nd and 17 and Moore is in the back field what do you think the D is thinking? One thing is for sure it's not a hand off to Moore. Then when he breaks off a 12 yard gain, it gets you and all other FFL guys in a tizy.

Just accept the fact that Willie will be our RB next week and then in the playoffs. You bitching and moaning here will not change that FACT.:banging:

augustashark
12-23-2008, 05:13 AM
Could'nt even beat out Michael Bennett or Onterrio Smith. LOL

Oh yea, Culpepper even out rushed him one year. WTF. You guys are still defending him! LOL.

GENIUS!

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 05:41 AM
Could'nt even beat out Michael Bennett or Onterrio Smith. LOL

Oh yea, Culpepper even out rushed him one year. WTF. You guys are still defending him! LOL.

GENIUS! Tiki Barber didnt beat out Charles Way and Leshon johnson early in his career. Your point has nothing to do with reality. As you said, most players start out as backups until they get their chance.

So why not give Moore a chance vs the Browns. He cannot possibly be worse than 18 carries for 29 yards.

augustashark
12-23-2008, 05:50 AM
Tiki Barber didnt beat out Charles Way and Leshon johnson early in his career. Your point has nothing to do with reality. As you said, most players start out as backups until they get their chance.

So why not give Moore a chance vs the Browns. He cannot possibly be worse than 18 carries for 29 yards.

Because I believe it's not a Parker/Moore problem. To me it's a Oline problem.

I just do not think that Moore is a better RB then Parker, simple as that I guess.

The_WARDen
12-23-2008, 09:06 AM
Sorry, as I stated...my original intent was NOT to have yet another Parker thread...

:blah::blah::blah:

fansince'76
12-23-2008, 09:09 AM
Sorry, as I stated...my original intent was NOT to have yet another Parker thread...

:blah::blah::blah:

What did you expect? When you start a thread asking for ways to fix the offense, there's one of two tracks that it could ultimately go down: "Parker sucks and Moore needs to start," or "Arians sucks and needs to be fired."

EDIT: Since Ben had a bad game again, there's now a third track: "Leftwich needs to start."

stlrtruck
12-23-2008, 09:12 AM
Because I believe it's not a Parker/Moore problem. To me it's a Oline problem.


Well, that about says it all folks!

The_WARDen
12-23-2008, 09:24 AM
What did you expect? When you start a thread asking for ways to fix the offense, there's one of two tracks that it could ultimately go down: "Parker sucks and Moore needs to start," or "Arians sucks and needs to be fired."

EDIT: Since Ben had a bad game again, there's now a third track: "Leftwich needs to start."

:doh: Sorry!

DACEB
12-23-2008, 09:49 AM
when Moore is in the game the D is going to respect the Pass a lot more then when Willie is in the game. Just basic gameplaning.

Isn't that benificial to the offense, when the D has to think about what is coming??

I completely understand your point behind the statement, and it's valid, but I hope you understand mine. It's getting to the point that teams don't respect FWP in the passing game. They gear for the run, and if it's a pass probably don't even cover FWP (he hasn't been catching the ball well at all). That alone is giving the D an edge.

While I don't think it's necessary to label this guy 'the starter', at this point MeMo is playing better and offers more versatility. IMO, MeMo should probably be getting more touches at this juncture. Each guy has his spot, Russell included.

I also don't think we run enough to get anyone going. I was largely dissappointed that we only attempted 27-28 rushes against the Titans. With Haynesworth out that should have been a priority, instead we play into the strengths of the remaining D-line. Kearse and J. Jones wouldn't be considered run stuffers by anyone.

It's a combination of things with the O. I'm hoping Tomlin makes the right decisions heading into the postseason.

stlrtruck
12-23-2008, 11:15 AM
Here's my question then. We know that Parker has a flash of speed so why not utilize him the same way Moore is being used out of the backfield? I'm not talking about solely on 3rd down but on 1st and 2nd too. It seems that teams are keying on Parker and begging for Roethlisberger to beat them. Utilize Parker in the out of the backfield type position and make the defense cover him with someone other than a lineman. I believe what you'll get is either a mismatch (i.e. LB out of the backfield which Parker should be able to outrun) or opening up the 15-20 yard passing game because the defense has had to pull someone up to cover Parker. I also think pushing Parker to the outside while keeping Moore as a running threat (or vice versa) will make defenses have to guess is it a run or a pass. Along with that, Ben needs to be able to read the defense better - and maybe that's the problem he's not picking everything up and therefore when he might read coverage instead of blitz, the blitz is killing our RB.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 11:33 AM
Because I believe it's not a Parker/Moore problem. To me it's a Oline problem.

I just do not think that Moore is a better RB then Parker, simple as that I guess.

Fair enough. If thats the case then why wouldnt you rest FWP in a meaningless game? And then what happens if MM has another 100+?

TackleMeBen
12-23-2008, 11:37 AM
Fair enough. If thats the case then why wouldnt you rest FWP in a meaningless game? And then what happens if MM has another 100+?
go with the hotter of the RBs. :wink02:

revefsreleets
12-23-2008, 11:42 AM
SO IT HAS BEEN SAID, SO IT SHALL BE WRITTEN!

Problem solved, mods, close this thread up.

Thanks for YOUR contribution, effstick.

Tossing out insults and 100% negativity all with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight is useless.

revefsreleets
12-23-2008, 11:45 AM
Parker is one dimenisional. He does one thing very well though--accelerates. What he doesnt bring is great vision or field awareness. He also doesnt possess great cutback ability or change of direction and this has to do with him not having very fluid movement of his hips. The good/great ones did......like Sanders, Smith, Allen and even some today like Peterson and LT. It takes many intangibles to make a great running back and right now theres a million guys that can get to point B from point A in a quick second. But if you can navigate congestion, and read gaps and have a feel for where the openings/space is then if u can get in the open field you will have success. Willie is only effective when theres an obvious hole and if there is congestion around the hole he will get tripped up because he doesnt run legs high, so thats why you notice Willie gets tripped up with arm tackles often.

So let me get this straight: Parker just lucked into leading the league in rushing behind a mediocre line last year because he can accelerate well? If that were the case, I guess any world class sprinter could be our RB, eh?

I've seen Parker cutback. I've seen him follow blocks and use field vision. He runs with balance. If he leaves the team, he'll have success wherever he goes.

steeltheone
12-23-2008, 11:48 AM
We have not thrown a good screen since Tomlin started coaching. Even if MM is out performing FWP, He will never get the nod. Veterans Preferance ala Foote -- Timmons. I agree with giving Russell more carries up the gut. Also the no huddle O. Its like they are scared to use it anytime other than the 4th Quarter.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 12:09 PM
go with the hotter of the RBs. :wink02: RIght but I am kind of wondering if he doesnt already know that Moore will be the hotter RB.

revefsreleets
12-23-2008, 12:26 PM
RIght but I am kind of wondering if he doesnt already know that Moore will be the hotter RB.

Are you insinuating that the coaches are purposefully trying to lose?

Or could it be (gasp!) that they are more aware of what they have on their team than the fans?

The bottom line is that this is really what the FWP hater crowd is arguing. Either the coaches don't know as much as you guys do, or they are trying to lose by not putting their best personnel on the field.

43Hitman
12-23-2008, 12:37 PM
Are you insinuating that the coaches are purposefully trying to lose?

Or could it be (gasp!) that they are more aware of what they have on their team than the fans?

The bottom line is that this is really what the FWP hater crowd is arguing. Either the coaches don't know as much as you guys do, or they are trying to lose by not putting their best personnel on the field.


And the big elephant in the room has just shown himself.:applaudit:

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 01:10 PM
Are you insinuating that the coaches are purposefully trying to lose?

Or could it be (gasp!) that they are more aware of what they have on their team than the fans?

The bottom line is that this is really what the FWP hater crowd is arguing. Either the coaches don't know as much as you guys do, or they are trying to lose by not putting their best personnel on the field. This is a weak straw man argument.

I am not a FWP hater. I am a FWP reality acknowledger.

You will say that I hate FWP but if you go back you will see that I have imparted no opinions only facts.

The_WARDen
12-23-2008, 01:19 PM
Are you insinuating that the coaches are purposefully trying to lose?

Or could it be (gasp!) that they are more aware of what they have on their team than the fans?

The bottom line is that this is really what the FWP hater crowd is arguing. Either the coaches don't know as much as you guys do, or they are trying to lose by not putting their best personnel on the field.

To be honest, Kordell was a starter for many years and guys like Joey Harrington, Tavaris Jackson, and Rex Grossman started for quite a while and sometimes for different teams...

Kinda makes ya wonder...

:noidea:

emarines45
12-23-2008, 01:23 PM
i dont believe that there is anyway to fix the run game this year, it is what it is. next year is a different story. they need to take a page out of there own history book! we have almost always a nasty fullback to run behind. drafting some o-linemen in the early rounds of the draft, then draft a bull to run behind in the later rounds. this is what the giants are doing right now, and its working. madison hedgeprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilter profanityfilter is dan krieder a few years ago. plus they have a couple of really tough, grinding runningbacks. right now we have a bunch of slashers that can't pick up tough yards.
bring back the fullback!!!

steelreserve
12-23-2008, 01:25 PM
Are you insinuating that the coaches are purposefully trying to lose?

Or could it be (gasp!) that they are more aware of what they have on their team than the fans?

The bottom line is that this is really what the FWP hater crowd is arguing. Either the coaches don't know as much as you guys do, or they are trying to lose by not putting their best personnel on the field.

Not really. It could just be that they're stubborn. Or that the attitude of "rah-rah, football is a team sport" skews their perception about incumbent starters. It does happen, so I see no reason to discount it.

Also, the bottom line is that whatever the coaches are doing isn't working at all. Why the hell would I trust that they automatically know better than me? I generally don't go into things with the mindset that I could do no better than complete failure.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 01:27 PM
i dont believe that there is anyway to fix the run game this year, it is what it is. next year is a different story. they need to take a page out of there own history book! we have almost always a nasty fullback to run behind. drafting some o-linemen in the early rounds of the draft, then draft a bull to run behind in the later rounds. this is what the giants are doing right now, and its working. madison hedgeprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilter profanityfilter is dan krieder a few years ago. plus they have a couple of really tough, grinding runningbacks. right now we have a bunch of slashers that can't pick up tough yards.
bring back the fullback!!! I will say it again.

The Steelers are averaging 90 yards rushing and 4.4 ypc in games that MM starts. That is a good running game.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 01:28 PM
Not really. It could just be that they're stubborn. Or that the attitude of "rah-rah, football is a team sport" skews their perception about incumbent starters. It does happen, so I see no reason to discount it.

Also, the bottom line is that whatever the coaches are doing isn't working at all. Why the hell would I trust that they automatically know better than me? I generally don't go into things with the mindset that I could do no better than complete failure.
Excellent post.

revefsreleets
12-23-2008, 02:08 PM
This is a weak straw man argument.

I am not a FWP hater. I am a FWP reality acknowledger.

You will say that I hate FWP but if you go back you will see that I have imparted no opinions only facts.

First off, the term "straw man" is bandied about a lot on this board, and I don't think most people have a clue what it means. Let's define it:
straw man argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument) is an informal fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-0) To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-0) While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric) technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-files-1)

I have in no way misrespresented anyone's position, I have culled out what your arguments are. You and yours are stating that MM > WP. That may or may not be the case, but at face value, the suggestion HAS TO BE that those calling for him to play more and/or start know more than the coaches do, or see things the coaches don't. The alternative is that the coaches KNOW that MM > WP and arenot putting their best players on the field, ergo, they are not giving themselves the best chance to win.

No straw man here.

I, however, see a third alternative. I think Moore has been put in better running situations. When Parker wasn't the starter I think defenses relaxed against the run a bit. He's also a 3rd down back and those guys always get carries against spread out D's, and D's that are geared first and foremost to stop the pass. Same arguments were made last year that Dookie was a better back than WP and stats backed that assertion up as well.

steelreserve
12-23-2008, 03:07 PM
I have in no way misrespresented anyone's position, I have culled out what your arguments are. You and yours are stating that MM > WP. That may or may not be the case, but at face value, the suggestion HAS TO BE that those calling for him to play more and/or start know more than the coaches do, or see things the coaches don't.

Yup. For my part, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Either I see something they don't, or that the coaches just don't fully recognize/don't want to recognize the reality of the Parker situation. Fine, I may not be capable of doing coach-like things like motivating NFL players or conducting drills in training camp. But that doesn't mean I'm f***ing blind.

I, however, see a third alternative. I think Moore has been put in better running situations. When Parker wasn't the starter I think defenses relaxed against the run a bit. He's also a 3rd down back and those guys always get carries against spread out D's, and D's that are geared first and foremost to stop the pass. Same arguments were made last year that Dookie was a better back than WP and stats backed that assertion up as well.

I don't know about that. Both of them hardly ever carry the ball on third down -- Moore has done it something like 9 times all year. He actually has a worse YPC there than on other downs.

If that's not what you mean, and you're just saying the defense is always more spread out when Moore is in the game ... well, then who cares why he's getting more yards? If defenses are going to play him differently and it works to our advantage, then let them keep doing that.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 04:46 PM
It's a combination of things with the O. I'm hoping Tomlin makes the right decisions heading into the postseason.

He hasn't yet in 13 games and that is worrisome for a coach to allow the same problem to persist for 13 games when corrections could've been made. The Jets waited a long time for Herm Edwards to "figure it out". I hope Tomlin does figure it by next year and if he doesn't, I hope we don't wait as long as the Jets

Here's my question then. We know that Parker has a flash of speed so why not utilize him the same way Moore is being used out of the backfield? I'm not talking about solely on 3rd down but on 1st and 2nd too. It seems that teams are keying on Parker and begging for Roethlisberger to beat them. Utilize Parker in the out of the backfield type position and make the defense cover him with someone other than a lineman. I believe what you'll get is either a mismatch (i.e. LB out of the backfield which Parker should be able to outrun) or opening up the 15-20 yard passing game because the defense has had to pull someone up to cover Parker. I also think pushing Parker to the outside while keeping Moore as a running threat (or vice versa) will make defenses have to guess is it a run or a pass. Along with that, Ben needs to be able to read the defense better - and maybe that's the problem he's not picking everything up and therefore when he might read coverage instead of blitz, the blitz is killing our RB.

It might work if defense's saw us run it consistently. Also Parker's inability to catch would make defense's not respect him until he proved them wrong.

Thanks for YOUR contribution, effstick.

Tossing out insults and 100% negativity all with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight is useless.

I apologize your excellency. I was just informing you that you had solved the problem through your great forum wisdom and your breath should no longer be wasted on such feeble peasants who continue to question what you have already answered.

Not really. It could just be that they're stubborn. Or that the attitude of "rah-rah, football is a team sport" skews their perception about incumbent starters. It does happen, so I see no reason to discount it.

Also, the bottom line is that whatever the coaches are doing isn't working at all. Why the hell would I trust that they automatically know better than me? I generally don't go into things with the mindset that I could do no better than complete failure.

I do think it could be a fear of the front office. It may be that Tomlin fears getting a call from the front office asking why the "star" higer-paid running back has taken a backup role while being paid starter money. I personally doubt that and think it's just simply stupid stubborness.

First off, the term "straw man" is bandied about a lot on this board, and I don't think most people have a clue what it means. Let's define it:
straw man argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument) is an informal fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-0) To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-0) While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric) technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-files-1)

I have in no way misrespresented anyone's position, I have culled out what your arguments are. You and yours are stating that MM > WP. That may or may not be the case, but at face value, the suggestion HAS TO BE that those calling for him to play more and/or start know more than the coaches do, or see things the coaches don't. The alternative is that the coaches KNOW that MM > WP and arenot putting their best players on the field, ergo, they are not giving themselves the best chance to win.

No straw man here.

I, however, see a third alternative. I think Moore has been put in better running situations. When Parker wasn't the starter I think defenses relaxed against the run a bit. He's also a 3rd down back and those guys always get carries against spread out D's, and D's that are geared first and foremost to stop the pass. Same arguments were made last year that Dookie was a better back than WP and stats backed that assertion up as well.

Everyone got all that?? Good!

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 05:00 PM
I, however, see a third alternative. I think Moore has been put in better running situations. When Parker wasn't the starter I think defenses relaxed against the run a bit. He's also a 3rd down back and those guys always get carries against spread out D's, and D's that are geared first and foremost to stop the pass.

Pay close attention to this statement everyone.

1. Why haven't the coaches been able to create those same running situations for Parker?
2. Why haven't the coaches been able to create those same situations consistently and throughout the course of the game?

Because they know more than us. Because Omar Epps and Jaba are smarter than every other coach in the league and most certainly smarter than all of us, that's why. Got it?

:cheer::cheer::cheer::cheer::cheer:

steelreserve
12-23-2008, 05:04 PM
Because they know more than us. Because Omar Epps and Jaba are smarter than every other coach in the league and most certainly smarter than all of us, that's why. Got it?

Well, it could be autoimmune. And did you rule out heavy metal poisoning yet?

Wait ... they always rule out heavy metal poisoning.

lamberts-lost-tooth
12-23-2008, 05:05 PM
Pay close attention to me everyone.

1. Why haven't the coaches been able to create those same running situations for Parker?
2. Why haven't the coaches been able to create those same situations consistently and throughout the course of the game?

Because they know more than us. Because Omar Epps and Jaba are smarter than every other coach in the league and most certainly smarter than all of us, that's why. Got it?

:cheer::cheer::cheer::cheer::cheer:

If Willie sucks....Ben Sucks... Arian sucks...and now Tomlin sucks...How do you explain our record....and what team do you think has it "all together"?

tony hipchest
12-23-2008, 05:06 PM
lobseslsedol

lamberts-lost-tooth
12-23-2008, 05:10 PM
lobseslsedol

Yea!....uh....I mean ...yea....I think.:noidea:

steelreserve
12-23-2008, 05:19 PM
Yea!....uh....I mean ...yea....I think.:noidea:

Probably had a cat on his keyboard or something.

lamberts-lost-tooth
12-23-2008, 05:53 PM
Probably had a cat on his keyboard or something.

The Cat only steps on the Letters LOL....just take those out.

steelreserve
12-23-2008, 06:09 PM
The Cat only steps on the Letters LOL....just take those out.


Well that's good, because for a minute I thought he was calling me a lobseed. And I don't care who you say it to, them's fightin' words.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 07:35 PM
First off, the term "straw man" is bandied about a lot on this board, and I don't think most people have a clue what it means. Let's define it:
straw man argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument) is an informal fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-0) To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-0) While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric) technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-files-1)

I have in no way misrespresented anyone's position, I have culled out what your arguments are. You and yours are stating that MM > WP. That may or may not be the case, but at face value, the suggestion HAS TO BE that those calling for him to play more and/or start know more than the coaches do, or see things the coaches don't. The alternative is that the coaches KNOW that MM > WP and arenot putting their best players on the field, ergo, they are not giving themselves the best chance to win.

No straw man here.

I, however, see a third alternative. I think Moore has been put in better running situations. When Parker wasn't the starter I think defenses relaxed against the run a bit. He's also a 3rd down back and those guys always get carries against spread out D's, and D's that are geared first and foremost to stop the pass. Same arguments were made last year that Dookie was a better back than WP and stats backed that assertion up as well.

1) You said in the earlier post that thinking MM>FWP makes you a hater. And that is by your own definition, a straw man argument.

As to your last paragraph, do you realize that isnt true? Moore is averaging 4.9 ypc on 1st down, good for 10th in the NFL and has very few 3rd down carries.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-23-2008, 07:37 PM
If that's not what you mean, and you're just saying the defense is always more spread out when Moore is in the game ... well, then who cares why he's getting more yards? If defenses are going to play him differently and it works to our advantage, then let them keep doing that. BINGO.

A threat out of the backfield gives LBers additional responsibilities. It opens up things in both the run and pass game. Isnt this obvious?

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 07:38 PM
If Willie sucks....Ben Sucks... Arian sucks...and now Tomlin sucks...How do you explain our record....and what team do you think has it "all together"?

Roethlisberger doesn't suck, nor does Ward or Holmes. And Heath Miller certainly does not suck. And in no way, shape or form does a single member of the defense suck. And Mewelde Moore doesn't suck either. Neither does Dick LeBeau.

How do I explain our record, the record is in spite of Parker, Omar Epps and Jaba.
In 15 games, the defense has given up 20 or less 4 times and has given up 10 or less 7 times. 10 or less 7 times. I had to repeat that because it amazes me.

The 4 times this defense has given up more than 20 points, we are 1-3. Three of our four losses have come when the defense was unable to hold the other team to 20 or less points. Only one time has the offense pulled through to win after the defense has given up 20 or more points and that was Roethlisberger, the receivers, Moore and Russell.

Up until this year, the team was still whatever Cowher built as far as I'm concerned. The defense belongs to LeBeau who coordinated the defense under Cowher. There is not much coaching needed on the defensive side of the football. So basically Epps needs to concentrate the majority of this time to coaching the offense. If he actually has done any coaching on the offensive side of the football, he has coached it straight into the ground. If he hasn't coached it, then he is responsible for allowing someone else to coach it into the ground. Regardless of how bad Arian's is, ultimately, Epps is responsible in the end.

Anything less than the Superbowl with this defense will be very dissapointing because I know any average efficient offense could win the Superbowl when the defense is this good. BUT I will cut Epps slack for all of next season even if we only win just one playoff game as long as it is without the defense being responsible for the win. As far as I'm concerned, if we're not in the AFC championship game this year, we need to start looking for a replacement for Epps. Cause if you can't win one playoff game as a head coach with this defense then you don't deserve to be a head coach.

Stlrs4Life
12-23-2008, 07:38 PM
Until our OL improves. we once again utilize a FB, and get rid of Arians, it is going to be the same.

steelreserve
12-23-2008, 08:18 PM
How do I explain our record, the record is in spite of Parker, Omar Epps and Jaba.
In 15 games, the defense has given up 20 or less 4 times and has given up 10 or less 7 times. 10 or less 7 times. I had to repeat that because it amazes me.
...

Anything less than the Superbowl with this defense will be very dissapointing because I know any average efficient offense could win the Superbowl when the defense is this good. BUT I will cut Epps slack for all of next season even if we only win just one playoff game as long as it is without the defense being responsible for the win. As far as I'm concerned, if we're not in the AFC championship game this year, we need to start looking for a replacement for Epps. Cause if you can't win one playoff game as a head coach with this defense then you don't deserve to be a head coach.

Hey, I think you've got to cut Foreman more slack than that. He's come in and won the division title his first two years. Despite the amount of talent we have, it's no easy feat to get a professional football team prepared and focused and maintain that for a whole season. How many ultra-talented teams have you seen go straight into the toilet just because they had their heads up their asses that season? It happens to a few teams every year.

It happened to us in 2006: After we won the Super Bowl, Cowher did not have the team ready for the season. So at least I have to give Foreman for that; just keeping us consistently competitive means he's doing a decent job. And I've got to give him some of the credit for the defense too, no doubt about it.

fansince'76
12-23-2008, 08:21 PM
Hey, I think you've got to cut Foreman more slack than that. He's come in and won the division title his first two years. Despite the amount of talent we have, it's no easy feat to get a professional football team prepared and focused and maintain that for a whole season. How many ultra-talented teams have you seen go straight into the toilet just because they had their heads up their asses that season? It happens to a few teams every year.

It happened to us in 2006: After we won the Super Bowl, Cowher did not have the team ready for the season. So at least I have to give Foreman for that; just keeping us consistently competitive means he's doing a decent job. And I've got to give him some of the credit for the defense too, no doubt about it.

Nope, no less than a SB every year is acceptable. If not, out he goes and we can become like Detroit and change HCs every two years. Hell, by NYC's rationale, Cowher should have been canned in early '96, because as far as I was concerned, we had a great defense in '94 and '95 as well with nothing to show for it except a home loss in the AFCCG and a heartbreaking SB loss because we had an absolute turd under center.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 08:34 PM
Hey, I think you've got to cut Foreman more slack than that. He's come in and won the division title his first two years. Despite the amount of talent we have, it's no easy feat to get a professional football team prepared and focused and maintain that for a whole season. How many ultra-talented teams have you seen go straight into the toilet just because they had their heads up their asses that season? It happens to a few teams every year.

Not including teams that have guys like TO or Chad Johnson to help ESPN dismantle the team? Then I haven't seen it often. I've seen key injuries do it, but not simply because of horrible missmanagement, so few times that it's hard for to remember off the top of my head.

I won't cut him slack, not when he took over a team that already had a franchise QB, franchise WR and franchise TE. Not when the defense was already excellent before he got here and the defensive coordinator is probably better than 10 head coaches in the league right now. And certainly not when he allows the offense to turn into $hit over the course of 2 seasons.

It happened to us in 2006: After we won the Super Bowl, Cowher did not have the team ready for the season. So at least I have to give Foreman for that; just keeping us consistently competitive means he's doing a decent job. And I've got to give him some of the credit for the defense too, no doubt about it.

I'm sorry but to say Cowher did not have the team ready is completely unfair to Cowher. His starting franchise QB was dumb enough to ride a motorcycle without a helmet and almost get killed just before the start of the season. THEN that same QB has to have an appendectomy just a few weeks after the season starts. The only thing I will fault Cowher for is having ever let Roethlisberger play after the appendectomy.

augustashark
12-23-2008, 08:34 PM
Fix the O, give the Oline more heart!

Blocking is like tackling, 10% talent 90% heart. If you don't have the will to get the man to the ground then what good does closing speed do for you. Our Oline just needs more heart, they have to want to move there man not just get into position. Maybe send Ward over with the Oline this week and let him show what heart can do for you when trying to push your man. It all starts up front. Paul Brown, Halas, Lombardi they all knew this so should we, this is not a new concept!

fansince'76
12-23-2008, 08:43 PM
I'm sorry but to say Cowher did not have the team ready is completely unfair to Cowher. His starting franchise QB was dumb enough to ride a motorcycle without a helmet and almost get killed just before the start of the season. THEN that same QB has to have an appendectomy just a few weeks after the season starts. The only thing I will fault Cowher for is having ever let Roethlisberger play after the appendectomy.

So Cowher bears no culpability for that letdown in '06? No culpability after someone would draw a boneheaded 15-yard celebration penalty, followed by his vow in the post-game presser afterwards that "that won't happen again" only to see the same thing happen again the following week or the week after? And that happened more than once during that year. Only one of many examples of that entire team taking a vacation that year and Cowher having Carolina on his brain the entire time.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 08:46 PM
Nope, no less than a SB every year is acceptable. If not, out he goes and we can become like Detroit and change HCs every two years. Hell, by NYC's rationale, Cowher should have been canned in early '96, because as far as I was concerned, we had a great defense in '94 and '95 as well with nothing to show for it except a home loss in the AFCCG and a heartbreaking SB loss because we had an absolute turd under center.

Fan??? Cowher had Neil O'Donnel, Barry Foster, Erric Pegram, Eric Green and Yancy thigpen.

Tomlin has Roethlisberger and Hines Ward.

What are you pulling a LambertIsGod58 and comparing O'Donnel and Kordell to Roethlisberger?

Cowher should've been given the Lombardi trophy just for getting that team into the playoffs let alone conference games and Superbowls.

Cowher did it strictly with defense because he had nothign to work with offensively. Tomlin has both a great defense and a franchise QB and WR.

And in 95' our defense was third in the league but it was giving up an average of 20 points a game. Both this year and last our defense is giving up an average of 17 and 15 points a game.

Furthermore, I did say that I would give Epps a completely free pass for all of next year if he manages to win just 1 playoff game this year without the defense being responsible for the win. I'll go even further and instead of deciding after whether the defense was responsible for the win, I'll say this, If Epps wins just ONE playoff game with the OFFENSE scoring more than 21 points, then I'll give him a free pass for all of next year.

fansince'76
12-23-2008, 08:49 PM
Furthermore, I did say that I would give Epps a completely free pass for all of next year if he manages to win just 1 playoff game this year without the defense being responsible for the win. I'll go even further and instead of deciding after whether the defense was responsible for the win, I'll say this, If Epps wins just ONE playoff game with the OFFENSE scoring more than 21 points, then I'll give him a free pass for all of next year.

I'm sure the Rooneys will be happy to hear that.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 08:51 PM
So Cowher bears no culpability for that letdown in '06? No culpability after someone would draw a boneheaded 15-yard celebration penalty, followed by his vow in the post-game presser afterwards that "that won't happen again" only to see the same thing happen again the following week or the week after? And that happened more than once during that year. Only one of many examples of that entire team taking a vacation that year and Cowher having Carolina on his brain the entire time.

Still, I think a gimp/post-surgical QB was more responsible than anything. And using a head coach, whether it be in any sport, having a hangover year the year after winning the championship as an example for not being a good head coach to have his team prepared is pulling at straws.

We should all wish we can fault Tomlin for the same thing next year.

fansince'76
12-23-2008, 08:53 PM
Tomlin has Roethlisberger and Hines Ward.

And was left shit for an OL. It all starts up front. Tomlin was left a good team, not a great one. And it was Tomlin who allowed LeBeau more freedom on the defensive side of the ball (which Cowher never let him have), which has improved the defense. This team hasn't been on autopilot since he took over.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 08:53 PM
I'm sure the Rooneys will be happy to hear that.

I'm sure the Rooney's are happy that most people are afraind and will continue to be afraid to call out their head coach no matter what he does cause he's black.

NYC SteelersFan
12-23-2008, 08:57 PM
And was left shit for an OL. It all starts up front.

I rather have no O-line then have Neil O'Donnel and Eric Green as my one-two punch.

TackleMeBen
12-23-2008, 09:02 PM
I'm sure the Rooney's are happy that most people are afraind and will continue to be afraid to call out their head coach no matter what he does cause he's black.
you just had to play the racial card?:noidea:. if tomlin was doing a bad job i am sure he would be called out, whether he is black, white, green or purple. you mean to tell me if tomlin was coaching the lions, that the detroit fans wouldnt be calling him out b/c he was black????

fansince'76
12-23-2008, 09:04 PM
you just had to play the racial card?:noidea:. if tomlin was doing a bad job i am sure he would be called out, whether he is black, white, green or purple. you mean to tell me if tomlin was coaching the lions, that the detroit fans wouldnt be calling him out b/c he was black????

It didn't save Dennis Green's job(s), and it won't be saving Herm Edwards' or Romeo Crennel's either. It's a weak argument, just like asserting a team should be able to win SBs without a decent line. The OL has been shit since Hartings' knees finally gave out on him.

augustashark
12-23-2008, 09:16 PM
Thread starts out "how to fix the O" and now turns into Tomlin is black therefore he will not be scolded. WTF is going on with these new members?!

lilyoder6
12-23-2008, 09:23 PM
to fix this offense we need to run THE WILDCAT!!!!!!!!! my goodness evryone is doing it so we need 2 do it as well... and then maybe we can use the pistol formation to get better blocking

WindyCitySteelerFan
12-23-2008, 09:48 PM
More plays to Moore, and obviously some protection would be very helpful

I think it all will take some time, they'll get better during the off season.

Its all relative to get our O as good as our D.

We should definitely work on some good "trick plays" and wild cat style offense, the run, run, pass is OLD and tired...
even the Ravens pulled out some great plays I hadn't seen them do this year during the Dallas game
their trick field goal to touchdown, and a few wild cat type plays made the game for them....They certainly looked better than we have this year...

I think we're going to be very dangerous next year, regardless of this years outcome.

tony hipchest
12-23-2008, 09:54 PM
ive seen the talk that tomlin has had all year to fix the run game and has done nothing to do it.

i guess he shoulda drafted a rb in the 1st round last year, huh?

oh wait, he did that and was completely blasted because it wasnt an area of need.

it was tomlin who brought in m. moore. weve had c. davis and s. mchugh get carries, released and broght back both russell and dookie.

so dont act like tomlin has stood by and done nothing.

as for the 06 meltdown, many people like to blame just cowher or ben, but most people completely discount the departure of quite a few players who were very important leaders and locker room favorites. we pretty much lost our heart and soul in 06.

jerome- no explanation needed

randel el- spiritual leader and friend to all. the ultimate good guy

hope- prankster and practical joker who kept everyone laughing, PLUS he got everyone in the right position and lined up on the field. farrior has assumed this role. (look at what he has meant to the titans)

von oelhoffen- the grizzled defensive vet who set the tone and even tailored his teammates jerseys.

now imagine where we would be next year if we lost hines, willie, clark, and keisel.

with hartings and porter leaving last year, tomlin (and of course lebeau) has been the glue that has kept this franchise together and competitive.

lilyoder6
12-23-2008, 10:25 PM
i think dan could of done that fake fg run.. he's big enough to take a hit and deliver a hit and decently fast...

the wildcat offense does seems sensible since we have parker/mendenhall/moore/russell to give the ball to.. never know...

X-Terminator
12-23-2008, 11:17 PM
So now we've gotten to the point that Tomlin should be held accountable and ultimately fired basically because he stood by and would not fire Bruce Arians because of the problems on offense.

Well, I've officially seen enough. Between the endless Parker/Ben/Arians bashing and now this, I might just have to take a hiatus from this part of the board before I lose my freaking mind.

tony hipchest
12-23-2008, 11:30 PM
we lost a game. what did you expect. :chuckle:

everybody wants what the cheatriots had last year.... the bestest most perfect season ever! :laughing:

even titan fans secretly thought they were gonna go undefeated this season and "shock the world".

with that being said, i wouldnt have minded if tomlin upgraded from arians to cameron in the off season.

but i can definitely understand why he didnt.

Steelman16
12-23-2008, 11:35 PM
I think a bruising fullback would do wonders, but I doubt Arians will invest in one.

There's no short term answer. What we need is a better line and you can't build one in a day, unfortunately.

If we actually climb the playoff ladder and make it to the AFCC or Super Bowl, it'd be nothing short of miraculous IMO.

UltimateFootballNetwork
12-24-2008, 02:05 AM
Until our OL improves. we once again utilize a FB, and get rid of Arians, it is going to be the same.NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

The results are DIFFERENT with MM in the backfield. Not the same, DIFFERENT.

NYC SteelersFan
12-24-2008, 02:54 AM
you just had to play the racial card?:noidea:. if tomlin was doing a bad job i am sure he would be called out, whether he is black, white, green or purple. you mean to tell me if tomlin was coaching the lions, that the detroit fans wouldnt be calling him out b/c he was black????

The racial card? It is called the Rooney rule, you know that right? It's named after the owner of our team. It's there rule and they've never had a black head coach so they felt obligated to get one. Good or bad, win or lose, like it or not, Tomlin has the job cause he's black. And before you do something stupid like call me racist, Kordell Stewart, Greg Lloyd, Levon Kirkland, Troy Polamalu, Jerome Bettis are my favorite Steelers players. Yes Kordell...I know, I know.

It didn't save Dennis Green's job(s), and it won't be saving Herm Edwards' or Romeo Crennel's either. It's a weak argument, just like asserting a team should be able to win SBs without a decent line. The OL has been shit since Hartings' knees finally gave out on him.

Would Herm Edwards still have a job if he was white Fan? Be honest.

The o-line is not as bad as everyone who refuses to believe that Parker, Arian's and Tomlin are to blame claim. It's bad, it's not that bad. How many times are we blitzed? How many times are we running a pass play when we are being blitzed? How many times does the opposing teams defensive coordinator guess right? How many times have you seen one damn dump pass during a blitz? It's an absolute joke.

ive seen the talk that tomlin has had all year to fix the run game and has done nothing to do it.

i guess he shoulda drafted a rb in the 1st round last year, huh?

oh wait, he did that and was completely blasted because it wasnt an area of need.

it was tomlin who brought in m. moore. weve had c. davis and s. mchugh get carries, released and broght back both russell and dookie.

so dont act like tomlin has stood by and done nothing.

as for the 06 meltdown, many people like to blame just cowher or ben, but most people completely discount the departure of quite a few players who were very important leaders and locker room favorites. we pretty much lost our heart and soul in 06.

jerome- no explanation needed

randel el- spiritual leader and friend to all. the ultimate good guy

hope- prankster and practical joker who kept everyone laughing, PLUS he got everyone in the right position and lined up on the field. farrior has assumed this role. (look at what he has meant to the titans)

von oelhoffen- the grizzled defensive vet who set the tone and even tailored his teammates jerseys.

now imagine where we would be next year if we lost hines, willie, clark, and keisel.

with hartings and porter leaving last year, tomlin (and of course lebeau) has been the glue that has kept this franchise together and competitive.

I won't argue any of your points. I will just add that despite our personnel, we are good enough offensively to be far better than what we are. This offense is underachieving at a staggering rate. It's as simple as that.

steelreserve
12-24-2008, 03:20 AM
Not including teams that have guys like TO or Chad Johnson to help ESPN dismantle the team? Then I haven't seen it often. I've seen key injuries do it, but not simply because of horrible missmanagement, so few times that it's hard for to remember off the top of my head.

I won't cut him slack, not when he took over a team that already had a franchise QB, franchise WR and franchise TE. Not when the defense was already excellent before he got here and the defensive coordinator is probably better than 10 head coaches in the league right now. And certainly not when he allows the offense to turn into $hit over the course of 2 seasons.

I'm sorry but to say Cowher did not have the team ready is completely unfair to Cowher. His starting franchise QB was dumb enough to ride a motorcycle without a helmet and almost get killed just before the start of the season. THEN that same QB has to have an appendectomy just a few weeks after the season starts. The only thing I will fault Cowher for is having ever let Roethlisberger play after the appendectomy.

OK, to the first part, I have to say: The Steelers don't get dismantled by T.O.-type stupidity because they've generally used their heads and stayed away from players like T.O. They've cut it close a few times (Burress, Bam Morris, a few others) but that's been a key reason we've not been quite so vulnerable to suddenly having the whole team go into the dumper because one or two guys went apeshit.

NYC SteelersFan
12-24-2008, 03:24 AM
OK, to the first part, I have to say: The Steelers don't get dismantled by T.O.-type stupidity because they've generally used their heads and stayed away from players like T.O. They've cut it close a few times (Burress, Bam Morris, a few others) but that's been a key reason we've not been quite so vulnerable to suddenly having the whole team go into the dumper because one or two guys went apeshit.

Agreed. Burress was a great talent but they let him go for the goodness of the team and it was the right move.

revefsreleets
12-24-2008, 09:25 AM
The truth? I don't really give an eff one way or the other, I just like riling up aholes like NYC in hopes that he'll have another implosion and get himself banned (again, since he's clearly a frustrated previously banned retread).

It truly is inevitable.

Whoops. Looks like it came to apss already...