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View Full Version : Atheists want God stricken from oath.


Steelcitygal87
01-15-2009, 06:39 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090115/ap_on_go_ot/obama_under_god


WASHINGTON President-elect Barack Obama wants to conclude his inaugural oath with the words "so help me God," but a group of atheists is asking a federal judge to stop him.

California atheist Michael Newdow sued Chief Justice John Roberts in federal court for an injunction barring the use of those words in the inaugural oath.

Newdow and other atheists and agnostics also want to stop the use of prayers during the inaugural celebration.

Newdow, who lost a Supreme Court battle to get the words "under God" taken out of the Pledge of Allegiance, has failed in similar challenges to the use of religious words and prayers at President George W. Bush's inaugurations.

Roberts' attorney Jeffrey P. Minear filed a document in Newdow's lawsuit saying that Obama wants the words "so help me God" included in his oath of office.

The Justice Department and attorneys general from all 50 states have filed motions at the federal court asking for the lawsuit to be thrown out.

The oath dictated by the Constitution is 35 words long and reads: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

The National Archives says that George Washington added the words "so help me God" when he took the oath at his 1789 inaugural, and most presidents have used it since. However, some have argued that the first eyewitness account of a president using those words came at President Chester Arthur's inauguration in 1881.

Named in Newdow's lawsuit are Roberts; Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.; and the two pastors invited to the event, the Rev. Rick Warren and the Rev. Joseph Lowery.

U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton will hear arguments on Thursday.

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Newdow is a pain in the butt. Obama wants those words in there, leave em in there.

GBMelBlount
01-15-2009, 06:58 AM
How sad. Atheists have nothing to look forward to so they want to make everyone else miserable and unhappy too. I would imagine if it was changed to "so help me Allah" there would be no uproar.

Steelcitygal87
01-15-2009, 08:09 AM
How sad. Atheists have nothing to look forward to so they want to make everyone else miserable and unhappy too. I would imagine if it was changed to "so help me Allah" there would be no uproar.

I think it is very sad as well. What I could never understand is...for a group of people who do not believe God exists, they sure act as though they feel threatened by Him.

SCSTILLER
01-15-2009, 08:56 AM
I think it is very sad as well. What I could never understand is...for a group of people who do not believe God exists, they sure act as though they feel threatened by Him.

Very true Steelcitygal! My grandmother once said that for you to not beleive in something, that something has to actually exist for you to not beleive in it. Made sense to me, but I am sure alot of people wouldn't understand that point. That is ok though.

What I really wanted to say is that it is BS what these aetheists want. If the President Elect wants to say "so help me God" than it is his right to say it. If he doesn't want to say it, than he doesn't have to say it. Just like when I reenlist in Air Force, our oath ends with "so help me God", it is my right to say it or not depending on my beleif. Guess I shouldn't mention that fact, I might have these atheists come to my next reenlistment with a federal judge and make me not say it. It is ridiculous!

jjpro11
01-15-2009, 08:56 AM
I think it is very sad as well. What I could never understand is...for a group of people who do not believe God exists, they sure act as though they feel threatened by Him.

thats the truth. its obama's words, he can say whatever the hell he wants.

revefsreleets
01-15-2009, 09:06 AM
God is pretty generic. If he wanted to say "So help me Jesus" or Allah, or Buddah or whatever, I'd have more of a problem because THAT is religious specificity. It's seperation of church and state, not faith and state.

Steelcitygal87
01-15-2009, 09:44 AM
Very true Steelcitygal! My grandmother wants said that for you to not beleive in something, that something has to actually exist for you to not beleive in it. Made sense to me, but I am sure alot of people wouldn't understand that point. That is ok though.

What I really wanted to say is that it is BS what these aetheists want. If the President Elect wants to say "so help me God" than it is his right to say it. If he doesn't want to say it, than he doesn't have to say it. Just like when I reenlist in Air Force, our oath ends with "so help me God", it is my right to say it or not depending on my beleif. Guess I shouldn't mention that fact, I might have these atheists come to my next reenlistment with a federal judge and make me not say it. It is ridiculous!


I agree with your grandmother. On a related note: A friend of mine and I had a discussion one day regarding religion..in specific, Christianity(I am a Christian and he claims not to be). He became EXTREMELY agitated talking about God. I won't repeat the type of language used by him...but let's just say he was very ANGRY at God and Christianity in particular. I told him, as gently as I could,..."For someone who doesn't believe in God you sure have a lot of anger and venom toward Him. Why let someone who doesn't exist upset you so much?". He seemed to calm down and didn't say much more after that.

Why do these people waste their anger and energy on fighting against a Being they don't even believe in? What difference does it make to them whether Obama uses God's name or he doesn't. They aren't being asked to say it., so what's the problem..there really isn't one..they just see it as an opportunity to complain and get everyone all stirred up.

Dawn

Polamalu Princess
01-15-2009, 09:53 AM
:sadpace:Sad...what have we become - a country that does not even have freedom of speech - not even the president...

NJarhead
01-15-2009, 10:04 AM
Well, if the President believes in God and it's HIS oath, shouldn't he decide?
People pull this shit these days just because they can. I wish I could just go back in time and have died of old age while Regan was still in office. :banging:

Hammer67
01-15-2009, 10:13 AM
I think it is funny that this is what people are worried about. I am not the most religious person but, shit, I have a lot more important things on my plate! Get a life athiests!!!!!!!

Godfather
01-15-2009, 10:32 AM
Seeing as how "so help me God" isn't in the oath, this is going to get laughed out of court. (Presidents add that on their own--some say Washington was the first, others attribute it to later Presidents).

Newdow should be sanctioned under Rule 11 for that reason.

MathWiz
01-15-2009, 11:37 AM
Seeing as how "so help me God" isn't in the oath, this is going to get laughed out of court. (Presidents add that on their own--some say Washington was the first, others attribute it to later Presidents).

Newdow should be sanctioned under Rule 11 for that reason.

Historians that attribute it to Washington say that he said this in acknowledgement of the enormity of the position and that even though the President has advisors, ultimately you are alone in the job when making a tough decision, sometime the only help you have is your God. So Washington was asking for all the help he could get in a job that was brand new and largely undefined.

The case is without merit because you can not strike something that does not exist in the law. The oath dictated by Article II of the Constitution of the United States (http://www.constitution.org/constit_.htm)is exactly 35 words long and reads: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Charles

jjpro11
01-15-2009, 10:57 PM
they're just attention profanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofa nityfilterprofanityfilters.. would the government actually overrule the president in his first day in office, especially over something like this? no way in hell. its a shame this was even made public, because thats what they wanted.

MasterOfPuppets
01-15-2009, 11:06 PM
Very true Steelcitygal! My grandmother once said that for you to not beleive in something, that something has to actually exist for you to not beleive in it. ! so the tooth fairy is real??? :toofunny:

Preacher
01-15-2009, 11:12 PM
God is pretty generic. If he wanted to say "So help me Jesus" or Allah, or Buddah or whatever, I'd have more of a problem because THAT is religious specificity. It's seperation of church and state, not faith and state.

Actually, I would have no problem with that either.

So help my Buddha or Allah (which is actually generic (God) in Aramaic), or Jesus.

Why? Because whoever is in office, it reminds them that they still have to answer to a higher authority. I fear the problem with a few of the past governors, congressmen/women, or presidents is that they think they are the highest authority and thus can do whatever they want.

I am not arguing for a litmus test of faith. But if a person of any faith gets into office, I want them to make an oath to THEIR God not to violate the constitution. It isn't a matter of faith to me, but a matter of psychology.

Hammer Of The GODS
01-15-2009, 11:38 PM
Not all atheists are alike people..

There seems to be a genuine dislike for atheist here.

I am an atheist and I don't give a damn what he says at the end of his speech.

I don't care if the word God is in the pledge of allegience.

I don't care if people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays.

I don't care if there is a nativity scene on public property.

I DON'T CARE!

I live by the golden rule and I expect others to do the same regardless of thier religious beliefs.

Just because I am an atheist doesn't mean I don't have a moral compass.

This ass hat and others like him are a waste of time. The empty can rattles the most.

Preacher
01-15-2009, 11:41 PM
Not all atheists are alike people..

There seems to be a genuine dislike for atheist here.

I am an atheist and I don't give a damn what he says at the end of his speech.

I don't care if the word God is in the pledge of allegience.

I don't care if people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays.

I don't care if there is a nativity scene on public property.

I DON'T CARE!

I live by the golden rule and I expect others to do the same regardless of thier religious beliefs.

Just because I am an atheist doesn't mean I don't have a moral compass.

This ass hat and others like him are a waste of time. The empty can rattles the most.



:toofunny:

Love it.

SteelCityMan786
01-15-2009, 11:57 PM
Would the Atheists shut up already? To the best of my knowledge the person who takes the oath has the option to say "so help me god" to end his/her oath.

Blonde Bomber
01-16-2009, 12:09 AM
Not all atheists are alike people..

There seems to be a genuine dislike for atheist here.

I am an atheist and I don't give a damn what he says at the end of his speech.

I don't care if the word God is in the pledge of allegience.

I don't care if people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays.

I don't care if there is a nativity scene on public property.

I DON'T CARE!

I live by the golden rule and I expect others to do the same regardless of thier religious beliefs.



Just because I am an atheist doesn't mean I don't have a moral compass.

This ass hat and others like him are a waste of time. The empty can rattles the most.



Nicely said, unfortunately, there is an extreme side to everything in religion. The reality is that the Bible is Only a book. It is scary that people take it so seriously. I have studied religion, and history, and have to believe that God is a myth, along with heaven and hell. I know that there are some Bible beaters on this forum, or at least some that believe that only their opinion is right about this matter, and I am sure I will take some heat for this post, but truly do believe that if there is a higher power it exists within yourself. Positive thinking is my belief. So, does it need to be stricken? No. I am not going to tell someone else to believe one way or the other, just as I expect the same respect.

Dr. Steel
01-16-2009, 12:16 AM
I'm an Atheist also. I also think people have the right to believe in what they want. Some people just need to get a life and focus on more important things in the world.

Hammer67
01-16-2009, 10:50 AM
Nicely said, unfortunately, there is an extreme side to everything in religion. The reality is that the Bible is Only a book. It is scary that people take it so seriously. I have studied religion, and history, and have to believe that God is a myth, along with heaven and hell. I know that there are some Bible beaters on this forum, or at least some that believe that only their opinion is right about this matter, and I am sure I will take some heat for this post, but truly do believe that if there is a higher power it exists within yourself. Positive thinking is my belief. So, does it need to be stricken? No. I am not going to tell someone else to believe one way or the other, just as I expect the same respect.

I think the heat you will take is not your beliefs but the language you use. I don't know of anyone with a strong faith that likes to be referred to as "bible beater". I'm just saying....

Blonde Bomber
01-16-2009, 02:00 PM
I think the heat you will take is not your beliefs but the language you use. I don't know of anyone with a strong faith that likes to be referred to as "bible beater". I'm just saying....
That is probably true, and I am sorry for using that particular phrase as I could have said it better.

SteelCurtain7
01-16-2009, 07:23 PM
Nicely said, unfortunately, there is an extreme side to everything in religion. The reality is that the Bible is Only a book. It is scary that people take it so seriously. I have studied religion, and history, and have to believe that God is a myth, along with heaven and hell. I know that there are some Bible beaters on this forum, or at least some that believe that only their opinion is right about this matter, and I am sure I will take some heat for this post, but truly do believe that if there is a higher power it exists within yourself. Positive thinking is my belief. So, does it need to be stricken? No. I am not going to tell someone else to believe one way or the other, just as I expect the same respect.

Well, I've studied all sorts of religions and mythology too, and I've discovered the Bible is true. It's scary that some folks who claim to not believe this Book waste so much server space on this website to state how much they don't believe it. Irony much?

Plus, I'm positive that you're stinking thinking stinks. :rofl: Because, obviously, this "power within myself" didn't create the universe ex nihilo --and neither did yours. To say that everything designed in this universe created itself is the height of folly IMO.

"Bible beaters"? Oy. I could accuse you of "ignorance peddling," which would be just as pedantic.

CaliStillersFan
01-16-2009, 09:23 PM
Let's be honest here, the only reason they invoke God's name is to make up for all the corrupt (non-christian) behavior that they are about to take part in. It's like when troops are preparing for war, every leader gives a speech saying God is on their side. What a joke. If God does exist, I doubt he would ever take sides in a war, let alone stand behind any of our presidents. It should be the Christians asking for God's name to be removed from Oath's not the atheists because the politicians agenda never aligns with Christian Doctrine. I still believe in the separation of church and state. If they need to believe in something, they should swear their allegiance to the American People not God.

millwalldavey
01-16-2009, 10:13 PM
I'm an athiest myself, but if he wants to say "so help me god" I think thats his choice. Just like its mine when I say nothing during that part of the pledge.

I think everyone should just let people do what is in their hearts, then do whats in their own. If you are offended by one certain word such as "god", then I think you have some issues.

If you don't like it don't listen to it, do look at it, do do it, or at least don't disrespect it.

Blonde Bomber
01-16-2009, 10:33 PM
Well, I've studied all sorts of religions and mythology too, and I've discovered the Bible is true. It's scary that some folks who claim to not believe this Book waste so much server space on this website to state how much they don't believe it. Irony much?

Plus, I'm positive that you're stinking thinking stinks. :rofl: Because, obviously, this "power within myself" didn't create the universe ex nihilo --and neither did yours. To say that everything designed in this universe created itself is the height of folly IMO.

"Bible beaters"? Oy. I could accuse you of "ignorance peddling," which would be just as pedantic.

Hey I think that is great that you believe that a fictional book is true, and hey you go right on believing that! :rofl: I am sure that heaven is waiting for your arrival or will it be eternal damnation for you for judging and being close minded...it's hard to tell at this point. :) . But to think that a God created the Universe is not what I call intelligible. As far as your 'ignorance peddling' comment..you and I would have problem face to face, but we are not so maybe you should recheck the thread as I apologized for that phrase.

PisnNapalm
01-16-2009, 11:11 PM
Nevermind.... Nothing good ever comes from discussing religion.

The Patriot
01-16-2009, 11:19 PM
If they were forcing Obama to say "so help me God" then that would be a different story. But since he is choosing to, then read the constitution, friends!

Preacher
01-16-2009, 11:49 PM
Nevermind.... Nothing good ever comes from discussing religion.

Agreed.

That is why I hate religion. Seriously.

Leftoverhard
01-17-2009, 02:08 AM
Are we talking about religion again? This atheist* wishes people would really just live and let live. All the judging on either side is just unbearable. And uneccesary.


*I use this word only in attempt to describe my non-belief. Attaching a name to categorize myself in something I don't even believe exists is purely for the believer's benefit.

Steelcitygal87
01-17-2009, 10:05 AM
If they were forcing Obama to say "so help me God" then that would be a different story. But since he is choosing to, then read the constitution, friends!

Exactly. No one is telling him he HAS to use a phrase he is not comfortable with using.

SteelTalons
01-17-2009, 10:15 AM
There's a few hell raisers in every religion or lack their of. Most atheists don't care about this sort of things. They just say it like everyone else and don't even think twice about it.

I know this because I've met a fair share of them. And we didn't even know one of them didn't believe in God until he mentioned the fact he was atheist because he celebrated Christmas.

I asked him one day, why do you celebrate Christmas. He said, I dont celebrate it for the religious part, just for the Santa, Frosty, present giving stuff. Basically it was for his nephews and nieces. They are Christians so he just went with it and did his part as "Santa". :wink02:

millwalldavey
01-17-2009, 10:43 AM
I asked him one day, why do you celebrate Christmas. He said, I dont celebrate it for the religious part, just for the Santa, Frosty, present giving stuff. Basically it was for his nephews and nieces. They are Christians so he just went with it and did his part as "Santa". :wink02:

I do Christmas season for my nieces/nephews as well. It's more about a time when everyone is around for me.

Although, I think that everyday family should be close like that.

Steelcitygal87
01-17-2009, 10:55 AM
I do Christmas season for my nieces/nephews as well. It's more about a time when everyone is around for me.

Although, I think that everyday family should be close like that.


Just wanted to say I LOVE your signature pic. Jack Ham has always been one of my favorite players.

SteelCurtain7
01-17-2009, 05:08 PM
Hey I think that is great that you believe that a fictional book is true, and hey you go right on believing that! :rofl: I am sure that heaven is waiting for your arrival or will it be eternal damnation for you for judging and being close minded...it's hard to tell at this point. :) . But to think that a God created the Universe is not what I call intelligible. As far as your 'ignorance peddling' comment..you and I would have problem face to face, but we are not so maybe you should recheck the thread as I apologized for that phrase.

Apparently you have no idea as to what you're talking about. As far as "close-mindedness" goes, you turn that back on yourself by shutting out the existence of Deity from yours.

As for your :rofl: ing, I ascribe this to further atheistic juvenile behavior on your part. Thankfully, I outgrew this in my youth. :rolleyes:

It's even less intelligent to assume that everything--including the intrinsic order of the universe--magically appeared apart from a guiding, designing hand of a Creator. That, ironically enough, requires more faith than the faith I possess.

I guess I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

Like The Christian Manifesto declares (and quite humorously, I add):

"The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes sense to me."

Blonde Bomber
01-18-2009, 08:31 AM
=SteelCurtain7;531094]Apparently you have no idea as to what you're talking about. As far as "close-mindedness" goes, you turn that back on yourself by shutting out the existence of Deity from yours.

So, according to you I am close minded because I do not believe the same as you right? :thumbsup:

As for your :rofl: ing, I ascribe this to further atheistic juvenile behavior on your part. Thankfully, I outgrew this in my youth. :rolleyes:

You've outgrown what? Are you saying that Atheists are juvenile? Maybe you should recheck not only what I wrote, but what you write.

It's even less intelligent to assume that everything--including the intrinsic order of the universe--magically appeared apart from a guiding, designing hand of a Creator. That, ironically enough, requires more faith than the faith I possess.

I guess I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

Like The Christian Manifesto declares (and quite humorously, I add):

"The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes sense to me."


I'll have to look into this magic hand that you speak of, as it seems to me that you believe that there was no Big Boom, but there was one Creator that didn't magically create the Universe. Yet there was this guiding, designing hand that, appears to have magically created everything.

I wasn't really looking to start an ongoing debate over religion. I merely said what I believe. You are not going to change that, just as I am not going to change the way you believe. Just as I said in my very first post.

cubanstogie
01-18-2009, 11:55 AM
Every atheist I know is more about anti religion such as secularism than just not believing. That is the aggravating part. It is almost like a rebellious attitude. It seems most people who are not with the majority such as gays, non christians, minorities aren't content with there beliefs and the way the live and they need to rebel, protest, impose on people's whose beliefs are not the same. Its not enough to be gay or an atheist you must impose your beliefs on others and have parades or try and take things away from christians instead of being content with who you are and what you believe. If you have a co-worker or friend you have known for a while but don't know about their religious views, you can guarantee they are not atheist. If they were you would have known it. Thats the difference.

Leftoverhard
01-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Every atheist I know is more about anti religion such as secularism than just not believing. That is the aggravating part. It is almost like a rebellious attitude. It seems most people who are not with the majority such as gays, non christians, minorities aren't content with there beliefs and the way the live and they need to rebel, protest, impose on people's whose beliefs are not the same. Its not enough to be gay or an atheist you must impose your beliefs on others and have parades or try and take things away from christians instead of being content with who you are and what you believe. If you have a co-worker or friend you have known for a while but don't know about their religious views, you can guarantee they are not atheist. If they were you would have known it. Thats the difference.

When a person is part of a minority, they can easily end up being defensive. This strange phenomena usually happens while sitting in a break room with your co-workers and someone starts getting hot about [insert minority group here] and other people join in. This is not called "rebellion", it's called standing up for your beliefs (or lack thereof), it's called letting people know that their anti[insert minority group here] views aren't the only ones in the room. This doesn't usually happen with majority groups - but when it does, it's called this is what it feels like to be devalued. Paying attention to things like this is called situational awareness or being able to see other points of view.

GBMelBlount
01-18-2009, 02:41 PM
When a person is part of a minority, they can easily end up being defensive....... Paying attention to things like this is called situational awareness or being able to see other points of view.

The sad thing is having to be defensive when you're part of the majority. It sucks being a caucasian religious taxpayer. I'm sure you can understand this being that you are obviously very objective and situationally aware.......:chuckle:

millwalldavey
01-18-2009, 02:59 PM
Many Athiests, such as myself, understand we live in a society dominated by those who are beleivers in a "higher power". I do my best to pay respect to their feelings, be nonjudgmental based on my perspective and try hard to be nonconfrontational.

All I want is a little of the same back.

The Duke
01-18-2009, 03:52 PM
Many Athiests, such as myself, understand we live in a society dominated by those who are beleivers in a "higher power". I do my best to pay respect to their feelings, be nonjudgmental based on my perspective and try hard to be nonconfrontational.

All I want is a little of the same back.

exactly :thumbsup:

I respect every single religion. But when I tell people I'm an atheist they act as if I was the devil or something

Not everyone of course. But it seems to be a common occurrence

MasterOfPuppets
01-18-2009, 04:08 PM
exactly :thumbsup:

I respect every single religion. But when I tell people I'm an atheist they act as if I was the devil or something

Not everyone of course. But it seems to be a common occurrenceyep....so much for the ..".judge not, lest ye be judged yourself " ......: seeing the way these "religious people " act reinforces my non beliefs.... they seem to only follow the teachings of the bible as it suits them..... people who live in glass houses, should be careful throwing stones......one of my favorites is seeing my religious married neighbor sitting at a bar on friday and saturday, getting dunk and hitting on every woman in sight......getting in his minivan and taking the family to church on sunday :popcorn:

xfl2001fan
01-18-2009, 08:20 PM
"To each his own," I say.

Your religion is most likely not mine, regardless of which faith you have (even if that faith is faith in a lack of a higher being.)

Some of my favorite quotes regarding religion generally are tied with the American version of the Christian faith.

"Dear Jesus, please save me from your followers."
"The greatest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians..."

I'm amused by them. I don't think religion (in and of itself as an ideal) is a bad thing. However, the hypocrites who preach it, drive everyone else away. That's not to say every one of them that attempt to follow a religion are hypocrites...however, there are far too many amongst the various religions (and they are very loud about their hypocrisy) to be ignored.

MasterOfPuppets
01-18-2009, 11:37 PM
"To each his own," I say.

Your religion is most likely not mine, regardless of which faith you have (even if that faith is faith in a lack of a higher being.)

Some of my favorite quotes regarding religion generally are tied with the American version of the Christian faith.

"Dear Jesus, please save me from your followers."
"The greatest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians..."

I'm amused by them. I don't think religion (in and of itself as an ideal) is a bad thing. However, the hypocrites who preach it, drive everyone else away. That's not to say every one of them that attempt to follow a religion are hypocrites...however, there are far too many amongst the various religions (and they are very loud about their hypocrisy) to be ignored.:applaudit: well said.... i don't care how other people choose to spend thier sundays, and i wouldn't criticize them for spending it in worship..... all i ask for is the same respect.

steelpinstripe72
01-18-2009, 11:58 PM
My grandfather is quite possibly the quintessential example of a hypocritical Christian. He has no respect for anyone who's different (including yours truly, who's been dealing with cerebral palsy since birth). He goes to church on Sundays and isn't very nice the rest of the week. I became born again last year (anyone who wants details, PM me if you'd like - I'd put it here, but won't out of respect to some. Unless you guys want it), and started going to the Chapel at CrossPoint here in Buffalo. It's a big church with contemporary worship - not your traditional church at all. Told my grandparents. Grandma was like, "awesome!" and asking all sorts of questions. Grandpa automatically assumed I'd joined a cult, since I don't worship God the way he does. Then there was the comment "You're Presbyterian, not Christian!", which I still don't get. So even Christians catch heat from other Christians. It's not just the atheists who are targeted.

MasterOfPuppets
01-19-2009, 12:06 AM
My grandfather is quite possibly the quintessential example of a hypocritical Christian. He has no respect for anyone who's different (including yours truly, who's been dealing with cerebral palsy since birth). He goes to church on Sundays and isn't very nice the rest of the week. I became born again last year (anyone who wants details, PM me if you'd like - I'd put it here, but won't out of respect to some. Unless you guys want it), and started going to the Chapel at CrossPoint here in Buffalo. It's a big church with contemporary worship - not your traditional church at all. Told my grandparents. Grandma was like, "awesome!" and asking all sorts of questions. Grandpa automatically assumed I'd joined a cult, since I don't worship God the way he does. Then there was the comment "You're Presbyterian, not Christian!", which I still don't get. So even Christians catch heat from other Christians. It's not just the atheists who are targeted.my protestant parents would simply rip catholics to shreds..... to hear them talk, it was like ,catholics were satans minions.....:chuckle:

Preacher
01-19-2009, 12:20 AM
"

I'm amused by them. I don't think religion (in and of itself as an ideal) is a bad thing. However, the hypocrites who preach it, drive everyone else away. That's not to say every one of them that attempt to follow a religion are hypocrites...however, there are far too many amongst the various religions (and they are very loud about their hypocrisy) to be ignored.


XFL... this isn't directed at you... your post just reminded me of what the pastor of my youth used to say.

When people would say "Church is just a bunch of hypocrites" my pastor would answer, "come join us, we could always use one more."

It brought up a few interesting discussions!

Hammer67
01-19-2009, 08:33 AM
my protestant parents would simply rip catholics to shreds..... to hear them talk, it was like ,catholics were satans minions.....:chuckle:


This is true...it's as if different Christian groups wan to eat their own! I was raised Catholic and remember some baptist friends making fun of Catholics without me even broaching the subject. "they are weird, the worship idols" or "why does the pope rule everyone? Shouldn't you pray to God and not the Pope?"

I was like...Dude! Your a christian, man! Quit hatin'! I am now an agnostic, if that makes any sense, for what it's worth, I lost faith in organized religion. It's too man made...too much bureaucracy. Plus, the Catholic hierarchy swept the pedophile scandals under the rug instead of publically denouncing them until they were shamed into it.

Steelcitygal87
01-19-2009, 08:37 AM
yep....so much for the ..".judge not, lest ye be judged yourself " ......: seeing the way these "religious people " act reinforces my non beliefs.... they seem to only follow the teachings of the bible as it suits them..... people who live in glass houses, should be careful throwing stones......one of my favorites is seeing my religious married neighbor sitting at a bar on friday and saturday, getting dunk and hitting on every woman in sight......getting in his minivan and taking the family to church on sunday :popcorn:


Your statement reminds me of one of my favorite quotes..."Preach the gospel at all times. Use words when necessary."...St Francis of Assisi

Confusing/hypocritical message your neighbor is sending...isn't it? On the one hand...you see him going to church with his family...on the other..... you see him hanging out in bars, getting drunk and hitting on other women. Christians are not perfect, they will still sin, but habitual sinning(walking according to the flesh) should no longer be a way of life for them. I think some tend to forget WHO they are supposed to be living for...Jesus Christ, and tend to focus more on living for themselves..going after their own wants and desires. They forget that others are watching. Their actions SHOULD be their most effective witnessing tool, unfortunantly that isn't always the case.

Godfather
01-19-2009, 10:21 PM
Their actions SHOULD be their most effective witnessing tool, unfortunantly that isn't always the case.

The Mormons have a concept along those lines...most males go on a two-year mission, but all Mormons are expected to be "member missionaries" in their daily lives. That means conducting themselves in a manner that reflects well on the church.

stlrtruck
01-20-2009, 08:44 AM
yep....so much for the ..".judge not, lest ye be judged yourself " ......: seeing the way these "religious people " act reinforces my non beliefs.... they seem to only follow the teachings of the bible as it suits them..... people who live in glass houses, should be careful throwing stones......one of my favorites is seeing my religious married neighbor sitting at a bar on friday and saturday, getting dunk and hitting on every woman in sight......getting in his minivan and taking the family to church on sunday :popcorn:

I think it would be funny if you mentioned it to him. Of course he might get offended if you say something.

CaliStillersFan
01-21-2009, 07:42 PM
Let's be real here, there's only one true religion to practice, every Sunday we come together as a Nation to watch "OUR GODS" punish the enemy and smite those that stand in their way. The religion of STEELERS NATION is America's only true religion!!!!!!

:tt02::tt02::tt02::tt02::tt02::tt02:

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
01-22-2009, 12:12 AM
Most atheists I have met are the most rude and smart ass people I have ever met.

Godfather
01-22-2009, 01:11 AM
Most atheists I have met are the most rude and smart ass people I have ever met.

I don't know that I'd say most. It's just that the self-righteous bigots are the most vocal and they give the whole group a bad name. (Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, for example). Kind of like Christians getting a bum rap from people like Pat Robertson and John Hagee.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
01-22-2009, 05:15 AM
I just haven't met an atheist that can talk about his/her beliefs/non-beliefs without trying to belittle me for being a Christian. They try and make you feel small by pointing out "flaws" in my belief and then get hostile and upset when I do the same to them.

Leftoverhard
01-22-2009, 12:02 PM
I just haven't met an atheist that can talk about his/her beliefs/non-beliefs without trying to belittle me for being a Christian. They try and make you feel small by pointing out "flaws" in my belief and then get hostile and upset when I do the same to them.


When you have conflict, sometimes to find an answer, you need to look for commonalities - a common denominator. It's either you or all atheists. If you really want to understand why this always happens, you have the tools.

Hammer Of The GODS
01-22-2009, 02:37 PM
Most atheists I have met are the most rude and smart ass people I have ever met.

I could say the same about most christians I've met. They are fine until they find out I don't subscribe. Then all I hear is how misguided I am or how I will burn in hell. SOME believe I am less of a person. So, should I condemn ALL christians for the actions of those people? EVERY group of people has thier arseholes. Is it fair to say that all catholics are pedophiles?

I just haven't met an atheist that can talk about his/her beliefs/non-beliefs without trying to belittle me for being a Christian. They try and make you feel small by pointing out "flaws" in my belief and then get hostile and upset when I do the same to them.


Hmmm. I can't speak for the atheists you "spoke" to, but I know I get tired of the constant "why aren't you like me, you're going to hell, you just dont understand" speeches. A guy can only take so much, so maybe you have just worn out your right to an intelligent calm conversation. I mean I have never met you but you've already proven you have no tolerance for people like me and are eager to put all atheists into the same category.

Now if you and I were to talk religion I would be calm and respectful. But if pointing out the "flaws" makes you feel "small" then our conversation would end in you disliking me. I'm sorry but there ARE flaws in the stories of the bible. NOTHING in modern history can help to substantiate the stories of the bible. Religion is based on faith that these things really happened. Other than what's written in the bible there is NO way to prove any of it happened. Therein lies the problem. You want me to believe without proof and when I ask about proof it just frustrates most believers because there is none to provide. It is akin to proving that Santa Claus exists. Can't be done, yet children still believe because someone told them to!

And as for me becoming hostile when you point out the flaws in my beliefs? Well there are no flaws in what I believe. Arrogance? NO. Just the opposite. I have NO IDEA how man got here, what it all means, or where we go when we die. How could I? I have NO PROOF of anything. I choose not to ignore the "flaws" in a book written by people who have been dead for centuries and who thought the earth was flat and leeches cured what ailed you!

I guess I can see your contempt for people like me. I represent that shred of doubt in your mind that scares the hell out of you.

But you are absolutely free to believe in whatever you want. I have no desire to change your mind or anyone elses. It just seems like when I talk to people like you, you think I'm some kind of threat to your beliefs because I simply don't believe the story.

Ironically I believe that without religion, man would have destroyed themselves long ago. The nature of man lends itself to organized religion.

Steelcitygal87
01-22-2009, 03:05 PM
I could say the same about most christians I've met. They are fine until they find out I don't subscribe. Then all I hear is how misguided I am or how I will burn in hell. SOME believe I am less of a person. So, should I condemn ALL christians for the actions of those people? EVERY group of people has thier arseholes. Is it fair to say that all catholics are pedophiles?




Hmmm. I can't speak for the atheists you "spoke" to, but I know I get tired of the constant "why aren't you like me, you're going to hell, you just dont understand" speeches. A guy can only take so much, so maybe you have just worn out your right to an intelligent calm conversation. I mean I have never met you but you've already proven you have no tolerance for people like me and are eager to put all atheists into the same category.

Now if you and I were to talk religion I would be calm and respectful. But if pointing out the "flaws" makes you feel "small" then our conversation would end in you disliking me. I'm sorry but there ARE flaws in the stories of the bible. NOTHING in modern history can help to substantiate the stories of the bible. Religion is based on faith that these things really happened. Other than what's written in the bible there is NO way to prove any of it happened. Therein lies the problem. You want me to believe without proof and when I ask about proof it just frustrates most believers because there is none to provide. It is akin to proving that Santa Claus exists. Can't be done, yet children still believe because someone told them to!

And as for me becoming hostile when you point out the flaws in my beliefs? Well there are no flaws in what I believe. Arrogance? NO. Just the opposite. I have NO IDEA how man got here, what it all means, or where we go when we die. How could I? I have NO PROOF of anything. I choose not to ignore the "flaws" in a book written by people who have been dead for centuries and who thought the earth was flat and leeches cured what ailed you!

I guess I can see your contempt for people like me. I represent that shred of doubt in your mind that scares the hell out of you.

But you are absolutely free to believe in whatever you want. I have no desire to change your mind or anyone elses. It just seems like when I talk to people like you, you think I'm some kind of threat to your beliefs because I simply don't believe the story.

Ironically I believe that without religion, man would have destroyed themselves long ago. The nature of man lends itself to organized religion.



I am sorry that you have had encounters with people condemning you for not believing the same as they do. I think sometimes Christians forget they are to treat others as they would want to be treated...and NO ONE likes to be called names, or belittled for what they chose to believe or not believe in. As Christians we are to show Christ's love to others. And I think it would help if these people, who have been so rude and condemning toward you, remembered their bible stories of how Christ Himself interacted with people during His earthly ministry. He spoke with gentleness and kindness..a true caring of the heart....especially with those who, according to society, were considered the lowest of class. Those whom everyone else rejected Christ reached out to with love, understanding and NON-CONDEMNATION.

It has always been my understanding my mission as a Christian is to hopefully show people, by my actions, that Christ lives in me and that because of Him I want to reach out to others in love, compassion and respect. It is NOT my job to convert anyone. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Preacher
01-22-2009, 03:29 PM
Well, my thoughts on this subject have been well-documented on this site.

I hope I have been respectful enough in those discussions to offset what some are saying about Christianity-- or those who follow it.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
01-22-2009, 04:28 PM
I mean I have never met you but you've already proven you have no tolerance for people like me and are eager to put all atheists into the same category.

And as for me becoming hostile when you point out the flaws in my beliefs? Well there are no flaws in what I believe. Arrogance? NO. Just the opposite. I have NO IDEA how man got here, what it all means, or where we go when we die. How could I? I have NO PROOF of anything. I choose not to ignore the "flaws" in a book written by people who have been dead for centuries and who thought the earth was flat and leeches cured what ailed you!



When did I say I have no tolerance for atheists? All I have done is explain my experience with those I have met, and that is exactly how they were. There was no discussion, there was only them trying to belittle me.

You condemn Christians for not having "proof" of a higher power, but then again you have no explanation for how all this happened otherwise. Either way it is based on faith.

I have faith that an intelligent creator was involved and you have faith that it all happened on accident without any guidance.

Hammer Of The GODS
01-22-2009, 04:30 PM
Don't get me wrong, there are tons of christians who don't push thier beliefs on me. They let me be me. One such christian once told me that it's up to me to find god, because that's the only way I'll be able to embrace him. He is right. If god truely is out there I'm sure I'll run into him. :wink02:

I'll always respect the christian belief. That is until I see pitchforks and torches coming down the street.:chuckle:

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
01-22-2009, 04:38 PM
See, that's all you had to say man. I feel the same way. If you push your beliefs on someone, it tends to push them away. On the other hand if you maybe speak to them about it, and one day they find it on their own, they embrace it. Kind of like the best way to get someone to do something they don't want to do is to convince them it was their idea to start with.

Here's to everyone figuring it all out (myself included) when the time comes :drink:

xfl2001fan
01-22-2009, 05:17 PM
See, that's all you had to say man. I feel the same way. If you push your beliefs on someone, it tends to push them away. On the other hand if you maybe speak to them about it, and one day they find it on their own, they embrace it. Kind of like the best way to get someone to do something they don't want to do is to convince them it was their idea to start with.

Here's to everyone figuring it all out (myself included) when the time comes :drink:

And if we're wrong, then here's to Mercy (cuz we'll need it!) :drink:

Leftoverhard
01-22-2009, 07:18 PM
This discussion is proof that we cannot succesfully lump all people into one group. We're all different and it's sometimes ironic how similar we are in some ways.
I mean, Hammer of the Gods - how different is he from me? Very different - and we've had some pretty heated arguments right here on this board - but surprise - after reading HOTG's feelings on religion, I can say that I feel almost exactly the same way.

CaliStillersFan
01-22-2009, 08:11 PM
WoW - see I knew us Steelers were different than everyone else :), this is the first discussion of religion that I have witnessed that didn't end in all out war or words. Screw Obama the American people need Steelers fans to save the world :). j/k

I was born and raised Catholic as a child and now through my own experiences in life I am more of an agnostic than an atheist. I can't really say I don't believe in nothing, but what I do believe in I can see and feel, and that's other human beings I share this planet with. I believe in my fellow man being innately compassionate. I believe no matter what religion you practice whether it's Christianity, Muslim, Hinduism or whatever you believe or don't believe, as long as you live by the basis of what all those religions are founded upon you will be OK and whatever may or may not come next.

Basically as long as I am willing communicate, be open-minded and non-judgmental, stay compassionate (except when it comes to the ratbirds and their fans):laughing: , feel humility, and are always open to compromise, I will be fine in this life and whatever comes next. I think most of us no matter what we believe, live within these basic principles. If there is a God and a judgment day, that the way we live our lives will be taken into consideration much more than whether we profess our faith on Sunday's in a church. I may not believe in an organized religion but I agree with the poster here that said if it wasn't for organized religion we probably wouldn't still be here.

I'll tell ya something I do believe in without a doubt though, the PITTSBURGH STEELERS are going to win their 6th SUPER BOWL 10 days from now!!!! :drink:

steelpinstripe72
01-22-2009, 10:16 PM
See, that's all you had to say man. I feel the same way. If you push your beliefs on someone, it tends to push them away. On the other hand if you maybe speak to them about it, and one day they find it on their own, they embrace it. Kind of like the best way to get someone to do something they don't want to do is to convince them it was their idea to start with.

OK, maybe I will share my story. This is essentially what happened to me. I had been told by various people that I was going to Hell (which if you're an atheist means nothing because you don't believe in Hell), or that the reason why I have CP is because I hadn't accepted Christ as my personal Savior (like I had a choice at birth, hello). At 15, I became an atheist after really bad experiences with my church. Or rather, my parents' church, as I was never given a choice. I'd ask my parents why, and they're like, "You go to church on Sunday, because it's what people do." Totally a social thing for them, which...yeah. Not seeing the point. Minister was doing things ministers don't do, etc. So I started exploring other things.

Fast forward about seven years, and I'm in grad school at UB. I meet Ben Woods (UB punter/Steelers fan/future star punter of the NFL, but also my best friend) at the office where I work and a couple weeks later (December 2007), we're watching the Steelers/Bengals game together. Right in the middle of it, he asks me if I believe in God. I was honest, I said no, and I'm pretty much trying to get out of this conversation. Change the subject, whatever. In there somewhere, he actually told me that God would heal me (and really, seriously, it's begun. Not trying to convert anyone, this is just what happened to me) We finished watching the game, and I left. I actually can't remember if it was that night or a few days later at the office when he asked me to go to church with him. But he did. Just once, just to check it out, he said. There were no threats, no insults, no "You're going to Hell," etc. Just "come to church with me." I was still hesitant, because I was like, "I don't know, got homework, etc." He did talk me into it, even though shortly before we went, he says to me, "I'll see you Sunday" and I was like, "For what?" Yeah. Ok. In the end, I went. And then we kept going. I still remember after Christmas break last year, he asks me, "Ready for round 2?" lol.

On November 11, 2008 (yeah, that's a Tuesday. I know), I was baptized at the Chapel at CrossPoint in Buffalo, NY, the church that we'd been going to. We were at Vintage, a service for college students. I had to give a testimony in front of 700 people. (!) Oh, and the healing thing? November 12, 2008, I ran for the first time since I was 12. As born-again Christians, it's what we do - tell people about God. But the ones who do it right, like Ben, don't force it or threaten people. This was my choice and mine alone. I know this, even though I do give Ben a lot of credit. The truth is, God gets the credit, because for one thing, this was just too perfect. I came thisclose to going to UConn instead of coming here. Things happen for a reason. I wouldn't have met my best friend if I'd gone to UConn instead. I thank God every day for where I am now. I'm alive, I have the greatest friend on the planet, and I've pretty much got my life figured out. Unless God throws another curveball, that is. :)

kittenfantastico76
01-22-2009, 10:30 PM
I'm late on this whole conversation obviously but ... how on earth is it up to athiests or any other non-religion or religion to say what the President should say during HIS oath. It's him being sworn in, and if he believes in God then I think he should be able to use such words and address such beliefs. Once an Athiest gets to the Whitehouse, he or she can do as they feel fit - this isn't about EVERYONE it's about him swearing in to do his job, so help us God.

Godfather
01-22-2009, 10:45 PM
I'm late on this whole conversation obviously but ... how on earth is it up to athiests or any other non-religion or religion to say what the President should say during HIS oath. It's him being sworn in, and if he believes in God then I think he should be able to use such words and address such beliefs. Once an Athiest gets to the Whitehouse, he or she can do as they feel fit - this isn't about EVERYONE it's about him swearing in to do his job, so help us God.

It really wasn't about that anyway. Michael Newdow always pulls stuff like this...he goes out of his way to be a jackass.

There's an official oath and the POTUS can say what he or she wants before or after. A good analogy is station identification on the radio. You have to say your call letters and home city within five minutes of the top of the hour, ie "KDKA Pittsburgh". It HAS to be "KDKA Pittsburgh" but you can say anything before or after, like "KDKA Pittsburgh 1020 AM" or "News, talk, sports KDKA Pittsburgh". Same with the oath...the POTUS can say "so help me God" after the oath, or a similar phrase, or something unrelated like "The Browns suck", or nothing at all...."so help me God" is not in the oath and is something incoming Presidents have chosen to add on their own.

Preacher
01-22-2009, 10:48 PM
It really wasn't about that anyway. Michael Newdow always pulls stuff like this...he goes out of his way to be a jackass.

There's an official oath and the POTUS can say what he or she wants before or after. A good analogy is station identification on the radio. You have to say your call letters and home city within five minutes of the top of the hour, ie "KDKA Pittsburgh". It HAS to be "KDKA Pittsburgh" but you can say anything before or after, like "KDKA Pittsburgh 1020 AM" or "News, talk, sports KDKA Pittsburgh". Same with the oath...the POTUS can say "so help me God" after the oath, or a similar phrase, or something unrelated like "The Browns suck", or nothing at all...."so help me God" is not in the oath and is something incoming Presidents have chosen to add on their own.

It is, quite literally, an oral tradition.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
01-23-2009, 12:22 AM
OK, maybe I will share my story. This is essentially what happened to me. I had been told by various people that I was going to Hell (which if you're an atheist means nothing because you don't believe in Hell), or that the reason why I have CP is because I hadn't accepted Christ as my personal Savior (like I had a choice at birth, hello). At 15, I became an atheist after really bad experiences with my church. Or rather, my parents' church, as I was never given a choice. I'd ask my parents why, and they're like, "You go to church on Sunday, because it's what people do." Totally a social thing for them, which...yeah. Not seeing the point. Minister was doing things ministers don't do, etc. So I started exploring other things.

Fast forward about seven years, and I'm in grad school at UB. I meet Ben Woods (UB punter/Steelers fan/future star punter of the NFL, but also my best friend) at the office where I work and a couple weeks later (December 2007), we're watching the Steelers/Bengals game together. Right in the middle of it, he asks me if I believe in God. I was honest, I said no, and I'm pretty much trying to get out of this conversation. Change the subject, whatever. In there somewhere, he actually told me that God would heal me (and really, seriously, it's begun. Not trying to convert anyone, this is just what happened to me) We finished watching the game, and I left. I actually can't remember if it was that night or a few days later at the office when he asked me to go to church with him. But he did. Just once, just to check it out, he said. There were no threats, no insults, no "You're going to Hell," etc. Just "come to church with me." I was still hesitant, because I was like, "I don't know, got homework, etc." He did talk me into it, even though shortly before we went, he says to me, "I'll see you Sunday" and I was like, "For what?" Yeah. Ok. In the end, I went. And then we kept going. I still remember after Christmas break last year, he asks me, "Ready for round 2?" lol.

On November 11, 2008 (yeah, that's a Tuesday. I know), I was baptized at the Chapel at CrossPoint in Buffalo, NY, the church that we'd been going to. We were at Vintage, a service for college students. I had to give a testimony in front of 700 people. (!) Oh, and the healing thing? November 12, 2008, I ran for the first time since I was 12. As born-again Christians, it's what we do - tell people about God. But the ones who do it right, like Ben, don't force it or threaten people. This was my choice and mine alone. I know this, even though I do give Ben a lot of credit. The truth is, God gets the credit, because for one thing, this was just too perfect. I came thisclose to going to UConn instead of coming here. Things happen for a reason. I wouldn't have met my best friend if I'd gone to UConn instead. I thank God every day for where I am now. I'm alive, I have the greatest friend on the planet, and I've pretty much got my life figured out. Unless God throws another curveball, that is. :)

Truly an inspiration my friend. It is stories like this that make be believe!

Kind of like the one of my coworkers son that was run over by an 18 wheeler. Yes, literally run over. He was working at a construction site and decided to hop a ride on a fully loaded brick truck as it went by (bad idea!). He jumped on the side rail but slid off and was run over by two sets of wheels on the trailer. He was actually crushed into the dirt and gravel at the construction site and had tire tread marks going across his chest and face. After being rushed to the hospital, besides tread shaped bruises he was unharmed!

Hammer Of The GODS
01-24-2009, 12:36 AM
I'm happy that good things happen to people.

But for every "good" thing that happens to someone a real "shhitty" thing happens to another guy.

Look I'm not here to rain on anyones parade, but personal experiences are relative and I think using the "good" experiences as a true testimony to god is being a little hypocritical. imo

It aint easy being a non believer! Coming to grips with the unknown is tough. I wish I DID believe then maybe death wouldn't scare me so much. But then again, I guess it scares everybody.........