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tony hipchest
12-26-2005, 09:39 PM
:rofl:

tom brady must suck as bad as ben. (according to many patsfans after last years playoffs)

SteelCityMan786
12-26-2005, 10:03 PM
Brady will probably look bad in the Playoffs.

BlitzburghRockCity
12-26-2005, 10:11 PM
its only 14-7..so far the jets are putting up a fight atleast..

SteelCityMan786
12-26-2005, 10:14 PM
If they lose I will crack up hard.

clevestinks
12-26-2005, 10:34 PM
I`m not in total agreement here. Brady scares me to death. I was just telling my wife that he is NOT the best qb that I`ve ever seen. BUT he is one of the smartest, and most proffessional qb ever seen

Koopa
12-26-2005, 11:07 PM
yeah, ya'll on something if you don't fear brady in the playoffs. he threw a pick wow!!! didn't affect the game at all. hopefully the jags will take care of them in the first round cause they are the one team that scares the shit out of me, and no i'm not under estimating the colts either it's just brady is more clutch

Brady12
12-26-2005, 11:10 PM
I`m not in total agreement here. Brady scares me to death. I was just telling my wife that he is NOT the best qb that I`ve ever seen. BUT he is one of the smartest, and most proffessional qb ever seen


Haha, good post... Unlike those other Steeler fans :D. Patriots are gonna win, no problem the score now is 28-7 New England...

*Puts on Home (Navy) Brady Jersey, and picks up football and throws it in the endzone to "Deion Branch" for the score.*:dualies:

BlitzburghRockCity
12-26-2005, 11:16 PM
Brady is not and probably never will be the best QB in the league when it comes to stats..but when it comes to winning, there's not many others I'd rather have than him w/ 2 minutes to go.

tony hipchest
12-26-2005, 11:20 PM
this post has nothing to do with the patriots winning or losing. i have said the patriots would win this game for over a month. they have nothing to worry about from anyone in their division. (i did underestimate the dolpins though- i said the pats could win the division going 8-8 or 9-7)

if you read inbetween the lines you will see that it was tungue in cheek commentary on all the patfans who said that ben was a fluke last year and sucked because he was picked off 3 times in the afc champ game.

but yet law picks off brady too. i guess hes not God after all.

Koopa
12-26-2005, 11:32 PM
i kinda knew what you were talkin about tony, but even though your post is towards everyone i'll just clear myside and tell you i was responding to what steelcity said about brady going to look bad in the playoffs

tony hipchest
12-26-2005, 11:38 PM
i kinda knew what you were talkin about tony, but even though your post is towards everyone i'll just clear myside and tell you i was responding to what steelcity said about brady going to look bad in the playoffs

i hear ya koopa cause i agree. brady will not look bad in the playoffs... unless someone (like the steelers) can bust up that line.

brady has really only looked bad one time this year and that was when the chiefs knocked the crap out of him early in the game.

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 12:39 AM
this post has nothing to do with the patriots winning or losing. i have said the patriots would win this game for over a month. they have nothing to worry about from anyone in their division. (i did underestimate the dolpins though- i said the pats could win the division going 8-8 or 9-7)

if you read inbetween the lines you will see that it was tungue in cheek commentary on all the patfans who said that ben was a fluke last year and sucked because he was picked off 3 times in the afc champ game.

but yet law picks off brady too. i guess hes not God after all.

Just out of interest - I would still say that Ben hasn't proved anything, at least not when it counts....in the playoffs and I have yet to see him carry his team to victory against decent opposition by throwing the ball.

The link between Brady and Big Ben is a tenuous one (even if it was meant tongue in cheek) - bearing in mind what they have both achieved at the same point in their careers.

So Ty Law picks off Brady, so thats ...ummmm...1 interception in the game and 13 for the year....- maybe you ought to rethink your proclamation that Brady isn't God......he probably is.

NM

Brady12
12-27-2005, 12:42 AM
Just out of interest, how many games has Pitt lost with Ben in, and out, and Won with him in and out?

clevestinks
12-27-2005, 12:43 AM
No there is only one GOD, Joe Paterno!

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 12:55 AM
Just out of interest, how many games has Pitt lost with Ben in, and out, and Won with him in and out?

Ben has a fantastic win% when he is the starting QB - im going from memory here but, including playoffs, I think he was 16-2 last year.

This year I believe that that the Steelers are 10-3 with Ben and 0-2 without him.

If all that guesswork is correct then the Steelers are 26-5 with him...and 0-2 without him.

Im sure one of the Steeler fans will give you some more accurate info - suffice to say Ben makes a huge difference to this team.

Welcome to the forum BTW - good to have someone else rooting for the Pats.

NM

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 01:09 AM
Just out of interest - I would still say that Ben hasn't proved anything, at least not when it counts....in the playoffs and I have yet to see him carry his team to victory against decent opposition by throwing the ball.



NM

LOL! yeah brady didnt show me nothing his first year in the league either. remember when he sat the bench all year and nobody knew who he was? ben has yet to complete his 2nd year in the league. hes only played in TWO play off games both of which were in his rookie season, so dont write the book just yet. did you see him put up 160 yds in the 1st quarter on saturday. dont try to tell me that game didnt count. nor did the one against the vikings or bears.

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 01:20 AM
living, if everyone beat this descent opposition you always talk about they wouldnt be descent opposition now would they? steelers, colts, teams like the bears and bengals havnt faced descent opposition? who the hell are they playing? the canadion football league, nfl europe? ncaa? please tell me which team out there has beaten descent opposition? the patriots? dont even go there. seahawks? san diego? what the hell has that gotten them?

Brady12
12-27-2005, 01:21 AM
Haha yeah, remember in Brady's rookie... Yeah whatever... Wait...

Wait something is coming to me now!

Remember when Tom Brady started his entire 2nd year season, except 2 games, and Won the Super Bowl? Wow what a day!

Koopa
12-27-2005, 02:15 AM
Welcome to the forum BTW - good to have someone else rooting for the Pats.

lol, you lonely now that your buddies left you when things got a little rough for the team? they should be comming back soon though now that things picked up, oh wait.... one already did this past week

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 09:07 AM
LOL! yeah brady didnt show me nothing his first year in the league either. remember when he sat the bench all year and nobody knew who he was? ben has yet to complete his 2nd year in the league. hes only played in TWO play off games both of which were in his rookie season, so dont write the book just yet. did you see him put up 160 yds in the 1st quarter on saturday. dont try to tell me that game didnt count. nor did the one against the vikings or bears.

In two seasons I cannot remember a game where Ben had to beat a decent team without the help of a running game.

The pro's and con's to sitting a QB in his rookie year are pretty evenly balanced as far as performance in the 2nd year goes - if you insist on counting Brady's first year then I'll have to insist on calling it an undefeated debut season as starter.

I dont want to be too hard on Ben becasue he has the makings of a top-notch QB, but any QB who is compared to Brady doesnt come out looking too great.

NM

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 09:26 AM
living, if everyone beat this descent opposition you always talk about they wouldnt be descent opposition now would they? steelers, colts, teams like the bears and bengals havnt faced descent opposition? who the hell are they playing? the canadion football league, nfl europe? ncaa? please tell me which team out there has beaten descent opposition? the patriots? dont even go there. seahawks? san diego? what the hell has that gotten them?

For future reference I have included a list of what I regard to be 'decent opposition' in this years NFL.

Patriots
Miami
Bengals
Steelers
Colts
Jags
Broncos
Chiefs
Chargers
Giants
Bears
Falcons
Panthers
Bucs
Seahawks

I shall try and break down each of those teams you mentioned above - and I really dont think I ever said they havent faced ANY decent opposition, I would have said they struggled against them.

The Steelers have a 3-4 LOSING RECORD against the teams I have listed above.

The Colts have a 5-2 record against these teams. In the case of the Colts - my argument has always been that they had faced no real OFFENSES in the 1st half of the season.

The Bears are 3-2 against the list and 8-2 against poor sides.

The Bengals have a 2-3 LOSING RECORD against the listed teams.

Having said all this the Patriots are only 4-5 against the list also.

What I am trying to get across is that alot of the teams with good records have not been dominant against good teams - in the style that the Steelers, Patriots and Eagles were last year.

I think this will make for an exciting playoff season - JAX is the only team that I dont think could beat any of the other AFC opposition home or away. - the rest are very evenly balanced.

NM

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 09:30 AM
lol, you lonely now that your buddies left you when things got a little rough for the team? they should be comming back soon though now that things picked up, oh wait.... one already did this past week

Hey Koops,

I have no idea why the other guys left - I dont think it was because we started losing, but then I dont know them so I cant say for sure!

Im pretty happy talking football with Steeler fans anyways - if I want to find Pats fans ....I know where to find em :toast:

NM

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 10:09 AM
In two seasons I cannot remember a game where Ben had to beat a decent team without the help of a running game.

The pro's and con's to sitting a QB in his rookie year are pretty evenly balanced as far as performance in the 2nd year goes - if you insist on counting Brady's first year then I'll have to insist on calling it an undefeated debut season as starter.

I dont want to be too hard on Ben becasue he has the makings of a top-notch QB, but any QB who is compared to Brady doesnt come out looking too great.

NM
1- thats funny, cause i dont remember brady beating any quality opponents without a running game either. i remember him losing to the steelers without one though.

2- brady did infact have an undefeated season his 1st year. too bad the pats couldnt say the same.

3- further examination will show that this thread was more comparing the int. law ran back for a td to the one harrison ran back in last years afc champ game. same route, same throw, same jump by the defender.

but seriously please name a few qb's who have beaten quality opponents or descent teams without the help of a running game? it sounds like youre saying that a qb will never be good until the team makes 0 rushing attempts and they beat a sb contending team running the 5 wr set exclusively. fact is running the ball is as big of a part of football as throwing it. just ask the participants of sb 25. ask j. elway or t. davis, emmit smith or franco harris.

brady still hasnt proven to me he can beat a descent team without excellent protection from an offensive line. ben can fight through line breakdowns.

brady still hasnt proven he can beat descent teams without a kicker putting the ball through the uprights for him.......

Brady12
12-27-2005, 10:53 AM
You have to score points to win... If the kicker put threw one or two FG, thats 6 points... Where do the others come from? Well some from Defense, and the OFFENSE! You cannot win a game solely with a kicker. A Kicker can score the final points to win the game, but he is solely not the reason. And it's funny, because i'm sure most people think Peyton Manning is the best QB, and his recievers are easily better than Brady's. His RB is easily better than Brady's. and yet Tom throws for 4000 yards, and Peyton won't.

Brady12
12-27-2005, 10:56 AM
lol, you lonely now that your buddies left you when things got a little rough for the team? they should be comming back soon though now that things picked up, oh wait.... one already did this past week


Now now, Someone told me about this site 2 days ago, otherwise if I already knew about it I would probably have been here longer. I can accept the fact that my team loses

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 10:59 AM
1- thats funny, cause i dont remember brady beating any quality opponents without a running game either. i remember him losing to the steelers without one though.

2- brady did infact have an undefeated season his 1st year. too bad the pats couldnt say the same.

3- further examination will show that this thread was more comparing the int. law ran back for a td to the one harrison ran back in last years afc champ game. same route, same throw, same jump by the defender.

but seriously please name a few qb's who have beaten quality opponents or descent teams without the help of a running game? it sounds like youre saying that a qb will never be good until the team makes 0 rushing attempts and they beat a sb contending team running the 5 wr set exclusively. fact is running the ball is as big of a part of football as throwing it. just ask the participants of sb 25. ask j. elway or t. davis, emmit smith or franco harris.

brady still hasnt proven to me he can beat a descent team without excellent protection from an offensive line. ben can fight through line breakdowns.

brady still hasnt proven he can beat descent teams without a kicker putting the ball through the uprights for him.......

I will warn you now Tony, by asking for a list of decent teams that Brady has beat without a running game you have let yourself in for a rather large reply.

Lets start in 2002 shall we?

Pittsburgh - 30-14 - Brady 29/43 294yds 3TD 0INT (Running game - 63yards)
Kansas - 41-38 - Brady 39/54 410yds 4TD 1INT (Running game - 97yards)

2003

Philly - 31-10 - Brady 30/44 255yds 3TD 0INT (Running game - 62yards)
Miami - 19-13 - Brady 24/34 283yds 2TD 0INT (Running game - 59yards)
Denver - 30-26 - Brady 20/35 350yds 3TD 1INT (Running game - 69yards)
Indy - 38-34 - Brady 26/35 236yds 2TD 2INT (running game - 56yards)

2004

Indy - 27-24 - Brady 26/38 335yds 3TD 0INT (running game - 82 yards)
Kansas - 27-19 - Brady 17/26 315yds 1TD 0INT (running game - 98 yards)
Cincy - 35-28 - Brady 18/26 260yds 2TD 0INT (running game - 94 yards)

2005

Pittsburgh - 23-20 - Brady 31/41 372yds 0TD 1INT (running game - 80 yards)
Tampa Bay - 28-0 - Brady 20/31 258yds 3TD 0INT (running game - 83yards)



I hope this list is comprehensive enough for you Tony - I listed only games against quality opposition (8-8 record or better) where New England managed less than 100 yards rushing AS A TEAM.

Also I think that your point about the NE O-line is a little redundant - we may have an excellent line coach but our line currently consists of

-Rookie LT
-Rookie LG
-Centre playing his first year in that position
-RT 6th round draft pick released by former team
-RG 7th round draft pick released by former team.

Thats not really anybody's idea of an All-Pro line is it?

Tom Brady avoids sacks because he is the best in the league at sensing pressure and delivering passes under pressure.

Feel free to list all the game where Ben has passed for big yardage and/or multiple TD's with a sub-100 yard running game.

NM

Brady12
12-27-2005, 11:04 AM
Thanks for the research living... Since you didn't do it, heres Brady's average for those games, and i'm assuming you took games under 100 yards?

306 yards, 2 TD, 0.5 INT (lol) Rushing Game avg. 77 yards.

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the research living... Since you didn't do it, heres Brady's average for those games, and i'm assuming you took games under 100 yards?

306 yards, 2 TD, 0.5 INT (lol) Rushing Game avg. 77 yards.

Hey Brady12,

You're welcome.

All the games had 3 things in common.

1. The Patriots won

2. The team rushed for less than 100yards

3. The opposition had a 8-8 record, or better.

I am willing to bet there are a bunch more in 2001, when we had Antowain Smith, but I couldn't find the stats for that year.

NM

Koopa
12-27-2005, 01:49 PM
Now now, Someone told me about this site 2 days ago, otherwise if I already knew about it I would probably have been here longer. I can accept the fact that my team loses


oh naw i ain't talkin about you, i was talkin about two other guys that lived here when ya'll were on top of the world

Koopa
12-27-2005, 01:52 PM
The Steelers have a 3-4 LOSING RECORD against the teams I have listed above.

The Bengals have a 2-3 LOSING RECORD against the listed teams.

Having said all this the Patriots are only 4-5 against the list also.



i know what you are trying to say but why do the steelers and bengals have a LOSING RECORD but with the pats it's only 4-5?

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 01:55 PM
ill just list that the steelers are 23-0 the last 2 seasons with ben on the roster when they rush for 100+ yds. troy aikman didnt have many 300 yd games either

the same list you did with brady could be done with mcnabb, however the steelers arent nor do they need to be a west coast offense or hybrid of it to win or prove that ben is a good qb.they are a power running team with a hall of fame rb. that doesnt mean ben couldnt go to eagles or patriots and fill in for an injured mcnabb or brady with minimal drop off.

look at the list you posted. every game brady threw 300+ yards look how many points the opposition scored and how close the games were. 8 times out of 10 the steelers never let the games get that close to have to abandon the running game. it is true that due to a premiere defense ben has little experience being in shoot outs but that is not because he is incapable of doing so. ben couldve thrown for 600+ yds against the browns if cowher wanted to run up the score. that is not his philosophy though. he is 99-1-1 with a lead of 10+ points. with stats like that it only makes sense to take the air out of the ball. its solid football philosophy.

i think you have confused rookie inexperience from last years afcc game with a lack of ability. sure ben has made some mistakes (like the same mistake brady made throwing the ball where ty law could pick it off.) now you dont have to accept that but it is a fact. every qb makes mistakes, even brady. theres a reason why a rookie qb like orton was benched in favor of grossman. theres also a reason why a 1st year starter like ben or brady were left in when the starters returned healthy. im sure you will hate that comparisson too but the fact remains the same. the teams had a better chance of winning with the incumbents.

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 02:14 PM
i know what you are trying to say but why do the steelers and bengals have a LOSING RECORD but with the pats it's only 4-5?

LOL ok Koops - if it makes ya feel better the Patriots have a 4-5 LOSING RECORD against the listed teams. :blurp:

The real reason I typed it different is because putting the Pats in was kind of an afterthought and I didnt want to bore you with more stuff about injuries and how this isn't the same team as the one from the first 8 games.

NM

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 02:33 PM
but seriously please name a few qb's who have beaten quality opponents or descent teams without the help of a running game? it sounds like youre saying that a qb will never be good until the team makes 0 rushing attempts and they beat a sb contending team running the 5 wr set exclusively. fact is running the ball is as big of a part of football as throwing it. just ask the participants of sb 25. ask j. elway or t. davis, emmit smith or franco harris.

You will notice the part I highlighted Tony - you ought to put more thought into your posts if you are going to contradict yourself on consecutive efforts.

brady still hasnt proven to me he can beat a descent team without excellent protection from an offensive line. ben can fight through line breakdowns.

I showed you who our -"excellent protection" was - a bunch of rookies and late round rejects

brady still hasnt proven he can beat descent teams without a kicker putting the ball through the uprights for him.......

I proved this to you just now with the list I compiled - the fact remains - when the running game of Pittsburgh falters Ben hasn't been able to pick up the slack - this doesnt make him a bad QB it just means he is not in Brady's class.

that doesnt mean ben couldnt go to eagles or patriots and fill in for an injured mcnabb or brady with minimal drop off.


Basically Tony you asked me to prove to you that Brady or any other QB can get it done with no running game - and when I did that you totally changed your tack - telling us all about 'power running games' and how they mean that Ben doesn't need to throw so much.

I gave you facts Tony - you gave me back reheated arguments about Troy Aikmen, H.O.F Running backs and guesswork regarding the theorectical situation of Ben being the New England QB.

NM

Koopa
12-27-2005, 02:43 PM
LOL ok Koops - if it makes ya feel better the Patriots have a 4-5 LOSING RECORD against the listed teams. :blurp:

The real reason I typed it different is because putting the Pats in was kind of an afterthought and I didnt want to bore you with more stuff about injuries and how this isn't the same team as the one from the first 8 games.

NM

why thank you, i feel a lot better lol, anyway any news on tedys leg?

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 02:52 PM
why thank you, i feel a lot better lol, anyway any news on tedys leg?

Well because we get little or no help from the Patriots media department regarding injuries - the leg could have fallen clean off in the night and we would know nothing about it!

Apparently there have been X-rays that have come up negative - but at this stage of the year it wouldnt take much to rule a player out for the rest of the season.

Its all guesswork at this point - having looked at replays my immediate thought was an impact injury (heavy bruising or a break) - but then it could be a minor tear or ligament damage ...who knows.

On the plus side Bruschi is super-flexible - he had a sick moment against the Eagles where his leg bent back right on itself after it became trapped under him - 30 seconds later he was jogging to the sideline with a big grin on his face.

NM

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 03:18 PM
You will notice the part I highlighted Tony - you ought to put more thought into your posts if you are going to contradict yourself on consecutive efforts.



I showed you who our -"excellent protection" was - a bunch of rookies and late round rejects



I proved this to you just now with the list I compiled - the fact remains - when the running game of Pittsburgh falters Ben hasn't been able to pick up the slack - this doesnt make him a bad QB it just means he is not in Brady's class.




Basically Tony you asked me to prove to you that Brady or any other QB can get it done with no running game - and when I did that you totally changed your tack - telling us all about 'power running games' and how they mean that Ben doesn't need to throw so much.

I gave you facts Tony - you gave me back reheated arguments about Troy Aikmen, H.O.F Running backs and guesswork regarding the theorectical situation of Ben being the New England QB.

NM

your facts about ben are based on 3 losses in a very short career. yet youve written the book on him. i guess thats why john elway never won a superbowl right? because he lost 3 of them. ben has passed his team to victory plenty of times. all your list showed me was that the running game and defense faltered on many different occasions.

ask any gm coach or football guru what theyd rather have. a rb who runs for 27 td's or a qb who throws for that many? a qb who throws for 4200 yds or a back who can run for 2000. all but mike martz would go with the running back. brady has posted the numbers he has out of necessity. if dillon had put up the numbers of s. alexander (like many thought he would) i guarantee 'chick wouldnt have him throwing the ball as much.

i can accept the fact that ben cant win without the running game if you can accept that brady cant win without the kicking game. really do they win 3 of the last 4 sb's with dallas' kickers? does billy cundif or jose cortez hit the tie and game winner in the snow against oakland. are they clutch enough to kick the game winner in the big one? if not brady is just another jim kelly, d. mcnabb, or d. marino. great individual stats but no rings.

if ben had lost 10-15 games when he fails to have 100 yds + in rushing support i might buy your facts. however your opinion is based on 3-4 games.

Brady12
12-27-2005, 03:22 PM
your facts about ben are based on 3 losses in a very short career. yet youve written the book on him. i guess thats why john elway never won a superbowl right? because he lost 3 of them. ben has passed his team to victory plenty of times. all your list showed me was that the running game and defense faltered on many different occasions.

ask any gm coach or football guru what theyd rather have. a rb who runs for 27 td's or a qb who throws for that many? a qb who throws for 4200 yds or a back who can run for 2000. all but mike martz would go with the running back. brady has posted the numbers he has out of necessity. if dillon had put up the numbers of s. alexander (like many thought he would) i guarantee 'chick wouldnt have him throwing the ball as much.

i can accept the fact that ben cant win without the running game if you can accept that brady cant win without the kicking game. really do they win 3 of the last 4 sb's with dallas' kickers? does billy cundif or jose cortez hit the tie and game winner in the snow against oakland. are they clutch enough to kick the game winner in the big one? if not brady is just another jim kelly, d. mcnabb, or d. marino. great individual stats but no rings.

if ben had lost 10-15 games when he fails to have 100 yds + in rushing support i might buy your facts. however your opinion is based on 3-4 games.

John Elway didn't win a Super Bowl, yet he won two... Wow would I hate to be him...

BTW, I forgot about Bruschi's leg, hope he's alright! :D

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 03:39 PM
yes. elway beat the falcons and green bay in 97 and 96. that comment was fecetious. people said he couldnt win the big one much like they say about ben.

Koopa
12-27-2005, 03:43 PM
i can accept the fact that ben cant win without the running game if you can accept that brady cant win without the kicking game. really do they win 3 of the last 4 sb's with dallas' kickers? does billy cundif or jose cortez hit the tie and game winner in the snow against oakland. are they clutch enough to kick the game winner in the big one? if not brady is just another jim kelly, d. mcnabb, or d. marino. great individual stats but no rings.


hey hey hey, cortez is clutch, he's an xfl champion lol

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 04:14 PM
hey hey hey, cortez is clutch, he's an xfl champion lol

thats right, hes cut from the same cloth as tommy gun! lol

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 04:15 PM
your facts about ben are based on 3 losses in a very short career. yet youve written the book on him. i guess thats why john elway never won a superbowl right? because he lost 3 of them. ben has passed his team to victory plenty of times. all your list showed me was that the running game and defense faltered on many different occasions.

ask any gm coach or football guru what theyd rather have. a rb who runs for 27 td's or a qb who throws for that many? a qb who throws for 4200 yds or a back who can run for 2000. all but mike martz would go with the running back. brady has posted the numbers he has out of necessity. if dillon had put up the numbers of s. alexander (like many thought he would) i guarantee 'chick wouldnt have him throwing the ball as much.

i can accept the fact that ben cant win without the running game if you can accept that brady cant win without the kicking game. really do they win 3 of the last 4 sb's with dallas' kickers? does billy cundif or jose cortez hit the tie and game winner in the snow against oakland. are they clutch enough to kick the game winner in the big one? if not brady is just another jim kelly, d. mcnabb, or d. marino. great individual stats but no rings.

if ben had lost 10-15 games when he fails to have 100 yds + in rushing support i might buy your facts. however your opinion is based on 3-4 games.

Hey Tony,

How about we take a little trip back in time...way waaaaay back to the start of this thread.

This was where you made your tongue-in-cheek comparison between Ben and Brady, and in particular their throws for an interceptions.

This led to you asking me to prove that Brady or some other QB could beat good opposition without the help of a running game - well I did it....I laid it right out out for you.
At no point did I ever say Ben wasn't an excellent QB - my point was that he hasnt PROVED (there's that word again) he can win without a running game.

I refuse to be drawn into nonsense arguments about field goal kickers - it is a horrible cliche to say it is all down to them to win the game....who do you think drives the team into a game winning field position?

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say that Brady wouldnt have thrown as much if Dillon had run better this year......that is so blindingly obvious I cant think why you would even mention it.

The point is when Brady is lacking a D (2001 and early this year) or lacking a decent running game (2001, 2002, 2003, 2005) he has found ways to win - I cannot think how to put this any more clearly.

Ben is a talented QB but he has simply not proven he can get the job done when his running game is taken away from him.

NM

Suitanim
12-27-2005, 05:07 PM
(Totally unrelated, but...)

I thought it was interesting that, in the first EVER ABC Monday Night Football game, the Jets lost 31-21 (To Cleveland) and, 35 years later, in the LAST ABC Monday Night Football game, the Jets lost 31-21.

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 05:19 PM
(Totally unrelated, but...)

I thought it was interesting that, in the first EVER ABC Monday Night Football game, the Jets lost 31-21 (To Cleveland) and, 35 years later, in the LAST ABC Monday Night Football game, the Jets lost 31-21.

Yeah that was a freaky piece of symmetry. I dont think many would have predicted the jets putting up 21 points when it took them almost 2.5 quarters to put up a 1st down - which came courtesy of a penalty.

NM

Koopa
12-27-2005, 06:01 PM
well i didn't notice that shit, this shit is rigged, those dirty abc b@stards lol

Brady12
12-27-2005, 06:08 PM
Yeah it is rigged, they just wanted Testeverde to get the record..

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 06:22 PM
Ben is a talented QB but he has simply not proven he can get the job done when his running game is taken away from him.

NM

i guess we will see when someone actually takes the running game away from him now wont we? (this is where you quote the games he lost)

pats in playoffs
pats this season where he and the running game played fine and well enough to win
colts -his injuries or rust are no excuse- he lost it
bengals- 386 yds and 3 td 3 int.

he hasnt had the opportunity to prove what you seem to feel he cant do.

Suitanim
12-27-2005, 06:57 PM
Actually, I consider it a great honor that Ben at 23 years old, playing 3 years of College at a MAC school, not having the advantage of sitting in the NFL for a year or two to tutor under a veteran QB is even worthy of comparison of QB's who have had all those benefits Ben hasn't. It's exciting to think of how much upside, just how much potential there is to be unlocked there!

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 07:04 PM
i guess we will see when someone actually takes the running game away from him now wont we? (this is where you quote the games he lost)

pats in playoffs
pats this season where he and the running game played fine and well enough to win
colts -his injuries or rust are no excuse- he lost it
bengals- 386 yds and 3 td 3 int.

he hasnt had the opportunity to prove what you seem to feel he cant do.

Where oh where did I ever say that Ben couldn't do it?

What I said is that, up to this point, he has been unable to manage it - simple as that.

Surely you would employ someone to fix your car who KNEW THEY COULD FIX IT and HAD DONE IT BEFORE rather than some guy who THINKS HE MAY BE ABLE TO.

Maybe someday in the future (maybe this year) he will be able to rescue the Steelers when a playoff team shuts down the Pittsburgh running game.

NM

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 07:06 PM
Actually, I consider it a great honor that Ben at 23 years old, playing 3 years of College at a MAC school, not having the advantage of sitting in the NFL for a year or two to tutor under a veteran QB is even worthy of comparison of QB's who have had all those benefits Ben hasn't. It's exciting to think of how much upside, just how much potential there is to be unlocked there!

Thats one thing i've always maintained about Ben - the amount of potential he has.

In a weird way, having such a strong running attack might have slowed his progress as a QB a little - but I think the adversity he has faced this year will put him in good stead for the rest of his career.

NM

Suitanim
12-27-2005, 07:09 PM
Think about it...when Carson Palmer was 23 years old, he had just won the Heisman Trophy, and was only dreaming of the NFL. When Tom Brady was 23, he was sitting on the bench in NE tutoring under Bledsoe. When Peyton Manning was 23 years old, he was ahead of the curve...but he was also winging the ball 500+ times a season, so his numbers are a bit skewed.

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 07:25 PM
Maybe someday in the future (maybe this year) he will be able to rescue the Steelers when a playoff team shuts down the Pittsburgh running game.

NM

well that took long enough! you finally have come around to see my point of view!

no qb had proved they could win 13 games in a row until ben went out and did it.
no one had proved a rookie could have the highest passer rating in the 4th quarter until ben went and did it.

steelerfans know the bar is set high for him. not only because of the patriot monkey on their back but even bigger is all the accomplishments of terry bradshaw. but if you look back at bradshaws 1st 3 years in the league they were practically filled with turmoil. steelerfans have every right to hype up the potential of ben. plus the fact that everybody was calling the steelers season last year a fluke and just waiting for ben to fall on his face.

in preseason he told everybody he WASNT gonna have a sophmore slump just cause everyone expected him to do so. you gotta admire his moxy and leadership skills and the way a veteran team and coach rally behind him as if he were brett farve. that says alot. although im sure steelerfans will have to hear about the junior slump he will be facing next seson. or that hes "fragile". or that he rides a motorcycle.....

Livinginthe past
12-27-2005, 07:37 PM
well that took long enough! you finally have come around to see my point of view!

no qb had proved they could win 13 games in a row until ben went out and did it.
no one had proved a rookie could have the highest passer rating in the 4th quarter until ben went and did it.

steelerfans know the bar is set high for him. not only because of the patriot monkey on their back but even bigger is all the accomplishments of terry bradshaw. but if you look back at bradshaws 1st 3 years in the league they were practically filled with turmoil. steelerfans have every right to hype up the potential of ben. plus the fact that everybody was calling the steelers season last year a fluke and just waiting for ben to fall on his face.

in preseason he told everybody he WASNT gonna have a sophmore slump just cause everyone expected him to do so. you gotta admire his moxy and leadership skills and the way a veteran team and coach rally behind him as if he were brett farve. that says alot. although im sure steelerfans will have to hear about the junior slump he will be facing next seson. or that hes "fragile". or that he rides a motorcycle.....

Tony ,

My point was never really about Ben - it was about Brady.

You said that 'running the football is just as important as throwing it' - so to me it is a more impressive acheivement to win with half your attack missing.

You asked me to prove Brady could/had done it - and I did.

As far as Ben goes - we could dig up old posts of mine going back to the pre-season where I stated that Ben wouldnt 'fall on his face'.

That was a media led party line - and the only people who follow that sort of logic are jealous rival fans and the sort of clueless fools who would vote Michael Vick into the pro-bowl.

Ben is way ahead of the accepted curve for a relatively young QB - I hope I dont have to keep repeating this every couple of months.

NM

Brady12
12-27-2005, 07:57 PM
Yeah Suit, he threw 28 INT that first year.

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 07:59 PM
that last post wasnt meant to insinuate that you felt he would fall on his face. just to point out that many felt he would and they were wrong. i WAS referring to that as a media driven statement and something most of the "haters" believe and you have definitely proven on this board that you are not a hater. brady has proven to come thru big time when is needed (which as youre list showed was more times than ben has faced). he really is the exception to the rule though. the only other qb who could be thrown in there is mcnabb. but then again it is philadelphias philosophy to not run the ball.

i think alot of bradys success is due to keeping opposing offenses off guard with the running game and more particularly the "3rd down back" conventional thinking would say that dillon is the main back and faulk is the 3rd down back. better than any other team the patriots mix this up. you will see dillon in there on 3rd and 2 and they pass to dillon. you will see faulk in there and they run with faulk. you can see either in their and they pass. patriots are also good at giving plenty to look at in game film and doing the complete opposite come gametime. im sure 'chick is a great chess player.

unpredicatability is key to success in todays nfl. steelers have borrowed slightly from this with the use of jerome and willie but i still hate how they call verron a 3rd down back.

Brady12
12-27-2005, 08:00 PM
Tony, you and living have an excellent heated battle going, i'd say something, but i love reading both of your posts lol.

tony hipchest
12-27-2005, 10:47 PM
Tony, you and living have an excellent heated battle going, i'd say something, but i love reading both of your posts lol. believe it or not i like having living post on this board and respect his opinion, and he sometimes makes me think. just sometimes though:grin: he is one of the more reasonable patfans i have encountered on several different messageboards.

Livinginthe past
12-28-2005, 06:42 AM
that last post wasnt meant to insinuate that you felt he would fall on his face. just to point out that many felt he would and they were wrong. i WAS referring to that as a media driven statement and something most of the "haters" believe and you have definitely proven on this board that you are not a hater. brady has proven to come thru big time when is needed (which as youre list showed was more times than ben has faced). he really is the exception to the rule though. the only other qb who could be thrown in there is mcnabb. but then again it is philadelphias philosophy to not run the ball.

i think alot of bradys success is due to keeping opposing offenses off guard with the running game and more particularly the "3rd down back" conventional thinking would say that dillon is the main back and faulk is the 3rd down back. better than any other team the patriots mix this up. you will see dillon in there on 3rd and 2 and they pass to dillon. you will see faulk in there and they run with faulk. you can see either in their and they pass. patriots are also good at giving plenty to look at in game film and doing the complete opposite come gametime. im sure 'chick is a great chess player.

unpredicatability is key to success in todays nfl. steelers have borrowed slightly from this with the use of jerome and willie but i still hate how they call verron a 3rd down back.

I certainly agree on running back scenario.

BB is willing to take losses in the running game in order to keep the opposition guessing - like you said with Faulk running on 1st down etc etc...

3rd down conversion is one of the most important areas of the game - since the return of a healthy Kevin Faulk we have done alot better in this area.

I am quite willing to accept that Brady is the exception to the rule - I dont think any other QB could step in and do what he does for New England.

I feel sorry for McNabb - you need to at least have the threat of a worthwile running game in order to maximise your passing opportunities - and McNabb doesn't get this.

I think Andy Reid has allowed the fact that his team was/is so talented to make him think that it was actually his game plan that was taking care of business.

The Patriots have had one dominant rushing year in the last 4 years and that was when Corey joined and we had a relatively fit O-Line - but that didnt stop BB mixing it up in the other years (The Antowain Smith years)- we still ran alot - just not with any great success.

Unpredictablility certainly is important in the post-season - BB could come out and run the most vanilla schemes and the other HC's would be going loco waiting for him to do something crazy.

NM

Livinginthe past
12-28-2005, 06:47 AM
Tony, you and living have an excellent heated battle going, i'd say something, but i love reading both of your posts lol.

Tony and me are 'famous' for our heated debates.

We both know we are biased in favor of our own team - but we both try to be reasonable when we put our points out there.

I do enjoy talking football - and here on Steelersfever there are plenty of people who are willing to debate without resorting to name calling and other nonsense.

I started posting here before this season's pre-season because the Steelers and Pats have had a magnetic pull for each other in the last few years - and the way things are panning out this year - looks like we could be locking horns in the 1st round.

NM