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View Full Version : ben a pro bowl alternate?


tony hipchest
12-31-2005, 04:52 PM
i say yes. most will say jake plummer, trent green or drew brees.

ben has 17 td and 7 int
jake 18 td and 7 int-3200 yds
brees 24 td and 15 int
not sure about green but ben has played in 4 games and 3 quarters fewer than these qb's.but still has a
better winning %, td%, and passer rating.

sure its nice that in his 8th or 9th year plummer has finally figured out to not make mistakes but ben is figuring this out in his 2nd season. doesnt ben have as many playoff wins as all 3 above put together? why dont people talk about these 3 qb's being carried by their running team? after all isnt this the knock on ben?

clevestinks
12-31-2005, 05:05 PM
I would vote Ben as alternate! But I may be biased!

tony hipchest
12-31-2005, 05:08 PM
i thought i was biassed too until i saw the numbers of the 2 qb's in todays game. bens are actually better if you projected the games he missed.

Suitanim
12-31-2005, 05:24 PM
"Never! All he does is throw screens to Parker"

< Dumbassed Browns fan who will remain nameless >

Brady12
12-31-2005, 05:47 PM
I wouldn't vote Ben in as alternate... I'd easily take Brees or Plummer.

tony hipchest
12-31-2005, 06:10 PM
I wouldn't vote Ben in as alternate... I'd easily take Brees or Plummer.thats easy to say without stating why. plummer? you got to be kidding. have you examined their numbers? (actually plummer may have a better winning % this year than ben. ben has 3 losses but had he played a full season wouldve easilly beaten jakes td, yds, and int #s and tied his winning %)

CantStop85
12-31-2005, 06:36 PM
You have to play more games to get any pro bowl consideration. Had Ben not missed any games he probably would have been an alternate.

Trent Green has 3,670 yards, 16 TD's, 10 INT's
Drew Brees has 3,508 yards, 24 TD's 15 INT's
Jake Plummer has 3,275 yards, 18 TD's, 7 INT's
Ben has 2,250 yards, 17 TD's, 7 INT's

I don't see how you could vote Ben over any 3 of those guys. We can speculate all we want about how many yards and TD's Ben would have thrown for had he not missed 4 games, but that would be voting more on reputation than anything else. If Ben had played a few more games and gotten around 1,000 more yards passing, then he would have been an alternate...thing is, he didn't.

Brady12
12-31-2005, 06:42 PM
How do you know this? You don't, Ben may have played a poor season, he may have played a good season. When a player misses time, you can't say how he would've done. Maybe not plummer, but definitely Brees would be a candidate for an alternate. The guy has come far in two years, and obviously that is stated, as he was Comeback Player of the Year last season.

IMO If you only play 12 games in a season, and you are a Two Year pro, I don't think you should be playing in the Pro Bowl. Thats nto to take away from Ben, it's just respect for the Veterans. You can be sure, that in 1 or 2 years, if Ben is having a good year, he would be considered more than he would be now. BTW His Numbers aren't even as good as last year, except he had 11 INT.. Even though he Started 13 games, I don't see how he should be an alternate.

Maybe i'm wrong, but this is my opinion.

Suitanim
12-31-2005, 06:42 PM
Ben's 23...his Pro Bowl's will come. Hopefully, unlike other QB's, his come along with some Super Bowl wins. I'm sure Dan Marino would trade all 8 of his Pro Bowl nominations for a single Lombardi Trophy...

Brady12
12-31-2005, 06:43 PM
Lol Suit, I'm sure anyone would trade in a pro bowl for a Lombardi Trophy.

CantStop85
12-31-2005, 06:47 PM
Lol Suit, I'm sure anyone would trade in a pro bowl for a Lombardi Trophy.
Personally, I'd take either one. :smile:

tony hipchest
12-31-2005, 06:47 PM
You have to play more games to get any pro bowl consideration. Had Ben not missed any games he probably would have been an alternate.

Trent Green has 3,670 yards, 16 TD's, 10 INT's
Drew Brees has 3,508 yards, 24 TD's 15 INT's
Jake Plummer has 3,275 yards, 18 TD's, 7 INT's
Ben has 2,250 yards, 17 TD's, 7 INT's

I don't see how you could vote Ben over any 3 of those guys. We can speculate all we want about how many yards and TD's Ben would have thrown for had he not missed 4 games, but that would be voting more on reputation than anything else. If Ben had played a few more games and gotten around 1,000 more yards passing, then he would have been an alternate...thing is, he didn't.

tell that to the people who voted in m. vick or j. ogden. larry johnson made it didnt he? did he play a full season as the starter? lts see:

16-10
18-7 or
17-7 in 4.75 fewer games (im not sure if plummer or green have rushed for any td's but ben has)

you sound like someone who would rather hate on ben than put the best qb's on the squad. or do you think j. mccown and k. warner should be there just because they throw for 300 yds/game every game? theres more to being a pro bowler (and winner) than yards thrown.

CantStop85
12-31-2005, 06:53 PM
tell that to the people who voted in m. vick or j. ogden. larry johnson made it didnt he? did he play a full season as the starter? lts see:

16-10
18-7 or
17-7 in 4.75 fewer games (im not sure if plummer or green have rushed for any td's but ben has)

you sound like someone who would rather hate on ben than put the best qb's on the squad. or do you think j. mccown and k. warner should be there just because they throw for 300 yds/game every game? theres more to being a pro bowler (and winner) than yards thrown.
I'm not saying that I agree with the voting in of Vick or Ogden because I don't. However, I do agree with the nomination for Larry Johnson...he may not have been a starter for the whole season, but he put up better stats than most of the backs who had played the entire season. To me, this is even more reason to vote for him.

I wouldn't vote in Ben because everyone ahead of him has better stats than him. Sure he has a killer QB rating, but he played in 4 less games than everyone else and has 1,000 less yards than everyone else. You can't say for sure how he might have performed over that 4 game stretch.

Brady12
12-31-2005, 07:04 PM
Michael vick was voted in spite of experience... We can relate that to Eli Manning too, I believe he should've been in there over Vick. This can relate to the alternate position we are talking about with Ben too. BTW Vick is the most exciting player in the game at QB, so why not? I didn't vote for him either :D

Rush58
12-31-2005, 07:13 PM
Ben could be if he played more games.

tony hipchest
12-31-2005, 07:21 PM
I'm not saying that I agree with the voting in of Vick or Ogden because I don't. However, I do agree with the nomination for Larry Johnson...he may not have been a starter for the whole season, but he put up better stats than most of the backs who had played the entire season. To me, this is even more reason to vote for him.

I wouldn't vote in Ben because everyone ahead of him has better stats than him. Sure he has a killer QB rating, but he played in 4 less games than everyone else and has 1,000 less yards than everyone else. You can't say for sure how he might have performed over that 4 game stretch. so youre telling me 16 td and 10 1nt is better than 17 td and 7 int just because trent green threw for 3600 yds? youre telling me just cause ben didnt start 4 games that if he did he wouldve thrown for 0 yds? i very conservatively have given ben 200 ypg in the 4.75 games he hasnt played in my extrapolations.

really though, how much better is plummers 18 tds and 7 int's than bens numbers? i see what you are trying to say but the simple math doesnt add up. sure you might have an argument for d. brees and his 24 tds in 16 games but looking at his injury today he might not even be available as an alternate. fact is ben is better than drew.

all this is a moot point cause we are only talking about the pro bowl. however if were looking at hall of fame careers ben is way ahead of the 3 aformentionned and will probably be named as a pro bowl alternate anyways (which i think helps his hall of fame bid)

Brady12
12-31-2005, 07:40 PM
so youre telling me 16 td and 10 1nt is better than 17 td and 7 int just because trent green threw for 3600 yds? youre telling me just cause ben didnt start 4 games that if he did he wouldve thrown for 0 yds? i very conservatively have given ben 200 ypg in the 4.75 games he hasnt played in my extrapolations.

really though, how much better is plummers 18 tds and 7 int's than bens numbers? i see what you are trying to say but the simple math doesnt add up. sure you might have an argument for d. brees and his 24 tds in 16 games but looking at his injury today he might not even be available as an alternate. fact is ben is better than drew.

all this is a moot point cause we are only talking about the pro bowl. however if were looking at hall of fame careers ben is way ahead of the 3 aformentionned and will probably be named as a pro bowl alternate anyways (which i think helps his hall of fame bid)


Uhhh, Ben has thrown 17 TD, Plummer 18... Theres the difference :D

I also think you are Biased, How can Big Ben be better than those 3 QB's in his 2nd year?

Rush58
12-31-2005, 07:44 PM
I hope Ben is Tom Brady and get the ring. lol

tony hipchest
12-31-2005, 07:49 PM
Uhhh, Ben has thrown 17 TD, Plummer 18... Theres the difference :D

I also think you are Biased, How can Big Ben be better than those 3 QB's in his 2nd year?

well since this conversation has turned into all about numbers (primarily passing yards which ignores alot of other important numbers) why dont you compare bens numbers through 2 years vs. that of trent green, j. plummer, or d. brees through their 1st 2 years. now lets talk about games won. as i have previously stated ben has led his team to more playoff victories than all above combined. while he sucked last year vs. the jets he did lead the game tying/winning drive and has 20+ wins in his 1st 2 years. these facts cannot be disputed because they are facts. talk about bens running game all you want but be sure to look at l.t., p. holmes/l. johnson, and the legendary denver running game before you do so.

so is it me who is biased? the points i have made have shown i am extremely objective.

CantStop85
12-31-2005, 08:01 PM
so youre telling me 16 td and 10 1nt is better than 17 td and 7 int just because trent green threw for 3600 yds? youre telling me just cause ben didnt start 4 games that if he did he wouldve thrown for 0 yds? i very conservatively have given ben 200 ypg in the 4.75 games he hasnt played in my extrapolations.

really though, how much better is plummers 18 tds and 7 int's than bens numbers? i see what you are trying to say but the simple math doesnt add up. sure you might have an argument for d. brees and his 24 tds in 16 games but looking at his injury today he might not even be available as an alternate. fact is ben is better than drew.

all this is a moot point cause we are only talking about the pro bowl. however if were looking at hall of fame careers ben is way ahead of the 3 aformentionned and will probably be named as a pro bowl alternate anyways (which i think helps his hall of fame bid)
I'm not saying necessarily that Ben didn't deserve to be a pro bowl alternate...I'm just telling you why he didn't get voted in. Four games is a big portion of the season when the final ballots are cast. If you ignore games played and just go straight off of stats, most of the alternates had slightly better TD/Int numbers and overwhelmingly better yardage (around 1,000 more). The point is that in order to argue Ben over the other alternates, you would have to assume how he would perform in the 4 games he missed. You can't do that...for all we know he might have thrown 10 Int's and 1 TD in that stretch. I know Ben was efficient while he was playing and I also know that yardage and TD's aren't everything but when you have 4 QB's all with similar stats except one that threw for 1,000 yards less than everyone else, who do you think is going to be the odd man out?

Rush58
12-31-2005, 08:09 PM
Shouldn't W/L count as a starter?

tony hipchest
12-31-2005, 08:13 PM
I'm not saying necessarily that Ben didn't deserve to be a pro bowl alternate...I'm just telling you why he didn't get voted in. Four games is a big portion of the season when the final ballots are cast. If you ignore games played and just go straight off of stats, most of the alternates had slightly better TD/Int numbers and overwhelmingly better yardage (around 1,000 more). The point is that in order to argue Ben over the other alternates, you would have to assume how he would perform in the 4 games he missed. You can't do that...for all we know he might have thrown 10 Int's and 1 TD in that stretch. I know Ben was efficient while he was playing and I also know that yardage and TD's aren't everything but when you have 4 QB's all with similar stats except one that threw for 1,000 yards less than everyone else, who do you think is going to be the odd man out?

actually i didnt know if alternates have even been named. if so who are they? you make good points. but then again i feel hines ward should be in the pro bowl also. and c. hampton. the only one i hope isnt there again is bill cowher if it means going to a superbowl. i am one who enjoys watching the pro bowl and likes seeing as many steelers as possible.

i too am smart enough to realize peyton was awesome last year and brady sucked in the game. but it dont really mean crap when one is coming off a sb win and the other couldnt even make it to the afcc game. ben is still better than plummer, brees, and green.

in fact ben is one of the top 5 qb's in the afc in only his 2nd year. no pro bowl berth is needed to validate that.

CantStop85
12-31-2005, 08:33 PM
actually i didnt know if alternates have even been named. if so who are they? you make good points. but then again i feel hines ward should be in the pro bowl also. and c. hampton. the only one i hope isnt there again is bill cowher if it means going to a superbowl. i am one who enjoys watching the pro bowl and likes seeing as many steelers as possible.

i too am smart enough to realize peyton was awesome last year and brady sucked in the game. but it dont really mean crap when one is coming off a sb win and the other couldnt even make it to the afcc game. ben is still better than plummer, brees, and green.

in fact ben is one of the top 5 qb's in the afc in only his 2nd year. no pro bowl berth is needed to validate that.
Alternates were named at the same time as the starters. I'm not sure who the alternates were...I would assume Brees and Plummer. I'm not sure, though.

Blitzburgh55
12-31-2005, 08:44 PM
brees got hurt today

Brady12
12-31-2005, 10:10 PM
Lol, It's not about numbers, it's the Quarterbacks presence, and how well they can move around, and play under pressure, and get the ball to the right guy. Guys lik ePeyton Manning, who manages the ball tremendously, and sits calm in the pocket, Theres tom Brady who is a terrific QB in the 2 minute drill, and he also manages the game terrific. All Great QB's should be able to stay calm, and manage a game. Big Ben is simply not better than Trent Green, Drew Brees, or Jake Plummer.

BTW Brees is a First Alternate at QB

Rush58
12-31-2005, 10:17 PM
Lol, It's not about numbers, it's the Quarterbacks presence, and how well they can move around, and play under pressure, and get the ball to the right guy. Guys lik ePeyton Manning, who manages the ball tremendously, and sits calm in the pocket, Theres tom Brady who is a terrific QB in the 2 minute drill, and he also manages the game terrific. All Great QB's should be able to stay calm, and manage a game. Big Ben is simply not better than Trent Green, Drew Brees, or Jake Plummer.

BTW Brees is a First Alternate at QB

You are totally wrong. Ben's awareness in the pocket is what seperates him from Brees and Green. The guy literally has eyes behind his back and he breaks more tackles than I've seen any qb besides old Steve McNair. Big Ben's numbers are higher when he moves around and gets contact. I can't count how many times Ben moves around and then throws for a 1st down. Ben only problem is going for the big play. Most, if not all, his interceptions came from the scramble on the right side.

Brady12
12-31-2005, 10:19 PM
... I didn't say anything about Ben.. At the end I just repeated myself from an earlier post lol.

Rush58
12-31-2005, 10:22 PM
... I didn't say anything about Ben.. At the end I just repeated myself from an earlier post lol.

But you did say Plummer and Green are better. :grin: lol

Brady12
12-31-2005, 11:44 PM
Well I do think they are... Maybe I'll say Ben is better in a few more years. I think they are anyways, all of you probably don't agree... Happy New Year Pittsburgh (In 15 minutes :D)

bengalsfan21
01-01-2006, 02:12 AM
I don't really think Ben would have surpassed 3200 yds

clevestinks
01-01-2006, 10:05 AM
I don't really think Ben would have surpassed 3200 yds
3200 yards is just 200 a game! I don`t think that would be a problem.

MichiSteeler
01-01-2006, 11:55 AM
I would vote Ben as alternate! But I may be biased!
lol yeah arent we all!:smile:

bengalsfan21
01-01-2006, 11:56 AM
3200 yards is just 200 a game! I don`t think that would be a problem.

Yeah but he won't throw 200 yds a game and Parker and Bettis, or even Staley rush for 100+ if Ben wants more passing yds Pitts needs to cut down on the run.

tony hipchest
01-01-2006, 01:04 PM
Yeah but he won't throw 200 yds a game and Parker and Bettis, or even Staley rush for 100+ if Ben wants more passing yds Pitts needs to cut down on the run.

what is it about basic 4th grade math that you dont understand? cause i can explain if need be. 11/2200 = 200. its simple. and for further proof that youre talkin out your bunghole or just plain hatin, take a look as far back as last week where ben and willie only played 3 quarters and both put up the numbers you say cant happen.


CP/AT YDS TD INT
B. Roethlisberger 13/20 226 1 0
C. Batch 1/1 31 1 0
PASSING



RUSHING
ATT YDS TD LG
W. Parker 17 130 1 80
V. Haynes 10 57 1 16
J. Bettis 7 24 1 7


of course you have a right to your opinion but if your gonna throw out a bogus statement like ben couldnt have averaged 200 yds in the games he missed try to support it, and tell us why. (this oughta be good)

oh thats right bengalfans believe in bengalmath like averaging 40 points a game the last 4 games and throughout the playoffs en route to the superbowl.

bengalsfan21
01-01-2006, 06:14 PM
My point is your not going to put those numbers up every game so you can't count on him getting 200 yds a game, and the running backs getting the same Pitts bread and butter is the run game with out it you won't win plain and simple....And until I see other wise I won't change my opinion.

melroseplace
01-01-2006, 06:23 PM
ok in the midst of all these numbers flying around, is there anyone who doesn't really want to see Ben at the ProBowl? I'm not sure if he deserves it...I mean, IMO I think he's one of the best QBs but I'm biased and haven't been watching all the other games to know how other guys are playing. but for all the injuries Ben has gotten through this year, I'd rather he just take all the time off he can get during the off-season (not saying I dont want him and the rest of the team to do far in the playoffs and Superbowl, obviously) so he'll be ready to rumble next season. I think we'll see Big Ben in the ProBowl in a couple years, but I don't think it's a bad thing that he didn't make it this year

SteelCityMan786
01-01-2006, 08:49 PM
Ben Should Already Be Going. Too Much Talent for the AFC To Be Missing.

CantStop85
01-01-2006, 09:58 PM
Ben Should Already Be Going. Too Much Talent for the AFC To Be Missing.
Had he not gotten injured, there's no doubt in my mind that he would have been an alternate for the pro bowl...but he wouldn't have made it over Brady, Palmer, or Manning.

SteelCityMan786
01-01-2006, 10:00 PM
Had he not gotten injured, there's no doubt in my mind that he would have been an alternate for the pro bowl...but he wouldn't have made it over Brady, Palmer, or Manning.


Blame the Damn Teams who took cheapshots at him.