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View Full Version : THE Bruce Arians Thread...


revefsreleets
02-17-2009, 01:26 PM
(This isn't aslong or as in-depth as I originally intended, but I'm hoping the two camps will line up and jump in. I'm PRAYING not to see any stupid "Arians sucks because he is stupid" posts. This board is littered with that type of garbage)

As many of you know, I have been a pretty big supporter of Bruce Arians all year. I have maintained that A) Ben, Tomlin and the FO are happy with him, B) He actually knows what he’s doing, C) He’s making the most out of his bad situation (The OL is easily the worst to ever win a SB) and, finally, D) He’ll be back next year.

I’m going to try and put everything into one thread here, including defense of my position, some additional assertions, and a little football knowledge as well (for those who already know everything about football, and you know who you are, no need to read on, I guess). I know there a certain percentage of haters who will not be dissuaded, and, whatever, that’s fine, BUT I would still like to point out that the Rooney’s run perhaps the most successful franchise in all of sports, and they know a thing or two about the game (i.e. more than YOU do), and they are sticking with him, so…

Anyway, without further ado, here we go…

First off, the guy has a long resume of coaching. He definitely paid his dues and has worked his way up to this level through both hard work and accomplishment. He was a QB at Virginia Tech, but no great shakes. Still, he played the game at the college level so that counts for something. Interestingly, he threw for 3 TD’s but ran for 8 in his senior year, so he knows a little about being mobile. He coached at various levels for several college teams, most notably holding the RB coach job under Bear Bryant at Bama. He was the HC at Temple for several years where the Owls sucked. But they sucked before that, and after that, and still suck, so that’s no big surprise.

NFL-wise, he was the RB couch at KC, where he met a dude named Bill Cowher. He coached TE’s for the Saints but was then hired to develop Peyton Manning at Indy. The haters give him zero credit for his work there (but that’s why they are haters). He spent 3 years in that role, and Manning himself has spoken highly of Arians, so any rational person would definitely see that he was instrumental in the Peyton’s development.

He was then promoted by the Browns to OC. Contrary to popular belief, Arians had some success in Cleveland, particularly in 2002 when the Browns scored the most points since ’87 and improved in almost every category offensively compared to the 3 years prior.

But the Browns suck, and they know nothing about winning in the NFL, so they made the mistake that many fans make, and blamed Arians for their horrible offensive line and shitcanned him after the 2003 season. Cowher hired him as WR coach. He was then promoted to OC.

One of the things Arians brings to the table is an offense kind of like the Colts, where you have deeper QB drops, run deeper routes, more crosses (to mix up the DB’s) and you’re looking to hit big plays. But it’s a problem if you don’t have a great OL. It’s a difficult situation because you have to ask a guy to change his schemes based on what he has to work with. He obviously DOES adapt, because we’ve seen it. My favorite complaint is when armchair Monday morning QB’s make these ridiculous assertions that the guy doesn’t know what he’s doing. Really? It’s his job. He’s paid big bucks to do what he does. It’s retarded to think that a few message board posters can second-guess the guy without knowing all the variables of the equation. That’s exactly why he gets zero credit form the haters when something works and all the blame when it fails. That shows a very narrow and myopic view of the game. But I digress. Here are a couple particular things I’ve found that are interesting. One is a broad explanation of Arians philosophy, and the other is specifics about screens, why they don’t run them, etc, etc (because this is a subject that is constantly bandied about by the naysayers I thought it’d be interesting to hear what Hines Ward had to say about it.)


http://pit.scout.com/2/806666.html (http://pit.scout.com/2/806666.html)

“It hasn’t been for a couple of years,” Arians said. “It’s something we work hard on, but they weren’t going to work versus (the New York Giants (http://nyg.scout.com/)).”
The Steelers tried one screen pass against the Giants and it clanged off Mewelde Moore (http://pit.scout.com/a.z?s=68&p=8&c=1&nid=3683604)’s chest. The incompletion was probably good for Moore, who would’ve been tackled for a loss.
“The Giants are a pressure man-to-man team, so they’re always hugging the screen runner,” Arians said. “The Redskins do the same thing. It’s a very similar defense this week and we’ve got to do a better job on the road of blocking them.”
Hines Ward (http://pit.scout.com/a.z?s=68&p=8&c=1&nid=3683579) called the Steelers “a great perimeter team that should have better success” running screens.
“We’ve run them,” he said. “It’s just a matter of running them the way we’re supposed to. But we’re definitely working on it. We didn’t just ball it up and throw it away. I don’t know how the offensive line used to do it, but trust me, B.A. loves the screen. He’s a big screen guy. But when you’re backed up third-and-13 and the defense is calling out “screen” and “draw,” it makes it difficult. It’s a chess match. “We’re working on it though. It’s not where we want to be, but I like where we’re going. Screens are definitely going to help us later on down the road, because if you blitz, Willie Parker and Mewelde Moore can take it 60 yards.”
Same article: Arians talks about quick adjustments…
* “A couple were more coverage sacks than blocking sacks, especially on the quick plays. They did a really good job of legally jamming the guys within five yards. The quick game was disrupted.”

revefsreleets
02-17-2009, 01:27 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/dstruzzi/tag/BruceArians



Arians' plans on using more four wide, single back sets on first and second down. This is similar to what the Colts ran in the Super Bowl and what the Patriots had run in their championship years. This could be a very explosive offense with the development of Santonio Holmes and Nate Washington. However, this could pose serious protection problems for the current Steelers line. As was evident at the beginning of this season, the Steelers' O line is built to run the ball. They do not fare as well in the pass protection. On passing downs, Marvel Smith is often exploited at left tackle, as is the entire right side of the line. In a spread formation, the OL is often isolated in protection, making their weakness more apparent. Without a whole sale change in OL personel, the Steelers may have some growing pains.



The new offense sounds like Ben Roethlisberger's dream. This scheme is much more suited for Parker's skills, and it would give Ward and Holmes room to work. However, I am not sure this offensive system will be efficient immediately with the current personel. We'll have to wait and see.





I’m sure if I kept digging I could find other SOURCED stuff to explain away most of the nonsense that the haters post. The bottom line is the game of football is a chess match, not a simple game of checkers. Arians probably spends 80 hours a week doing his job, and there is an opposing DC spending 80 hours a week to counter. I think most fans think in 2D when this is a 3 dimensional subject. It’s an incredibly complex system and people fail when they attempt to view it in simple terms based on their own limited understanding of the game.



Am I an apologist? You betcha! But guess what? The Steelers won a Super Bowl with Arians as the coordinator. They retained his services for next year. Tomlin obviously has say in the matter, and he seems on board. Ben obviously likes and is comfortable with Arians. Rooney seems pleased. They know more than you do. They are in charge.





Other Sources:

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2009/01/30/sports/doc498295dca8a56046882943.txt



http://www.stampedeblue.com/nfl/players/l.nfl.com-p.886

Morgan
02-17-2009, 01:32 PM
I concur. :)

MACH1
02-17-2009, 01:35 PM
I don't really have a problem with the guy. Just at times his play calling leaves me scratching my head.

Steelers & I
02-17-2009, 01:58 PM
Without bashing Arians, because HometownGal has advised against it, I just want to make one point.

Many, and I mean MANY of the Steelers big plays occurred AFTER Ben Roethlisberger bought extra time by way of scrambling around and shaking off defenders who were attempting to sack him.

Now, you can say what you like but I'm going to say what I believe. When Roethlisberger extends a play, as only Roethlisberger can do, the original "Arians play design" has already run its course and is therefore defunct at that point. Designed WR routes are ran in 2 to 3 seconds. When Roethlisberger extends a play to 5 or 6 seconds, NO Steelers WR is running a designed route at that time. It's essentially sandlot football at that point. We've seen many instances such as I've mentioned above. Hell, that's what Roethlisberger is known for across the NFL, a guy who extends the play.

Why does Ben have to extend so many plays? Is it because the offensive line doesn't protect well enough? Or maybe it's because the designed WR routes aren't getting anyone open. I've seen Roethlisberger pressured many times and as I look upfield, it's not like he has anyone WIDE OPEN. Most of the eligible WR's seem to be covered pretty well for the most part so Roethlisberger begins to buy time in order to free someone up.

That's all that I wanted to say on the matter. I believe that Arians has recently received a lot of credit for an offensive system that Roethlisberger alone has managed to kick start.

scsteeler
02-17-2009, 02:08 PM
I think Arians has done a good job as OC and if the O-line keeps on improving you will see a much more effective offense. No one seems to point out that when your running game is down due to your starting guys getting hurt you will see more attention paid to the pass and pressure on the QB. Take that into consideration I think Arians did a wonderful job of adapting the offense to work with what he had this year.

I think the passing game this past season was used to setup the run verses the run setting up the pass.

Michael Keller
02-17-2009, 02:16 PM
Without bashing Arians, because HometownGal has advised against it, I just want to make one point.

Many, and I mean MANY of the Steelers big plays occurred AFTER Ben Roethlisberger bought extra time by way of scrambling around and shaking off defenders who were attempting to sack him.

Now, you can say what you like but I'm going to say what I believe. When Roethlisberger extends a play, as only Roethlisberger can do, the original "Arians play design" has already run its course and is therefore defunct at that point. Designed WR routes are ran in 2 to 3 seconds. When Roethlisberger extends a play to 5 or 6 seconds, NO Steelers WR is running a designed route at that time. It's essentially sandlot football at that point. We've seen many instances such as I've mentioned above. Hell, that's what Roethlisberger is known for across the NFL, a guy who extends the play.

Why does Ben have to extend so many plays? Is it because the offensive line doesn't protect well enough? Or maybe it's because the designed WR routes aren't getting anyone open. I've seen Roethlisberger pressured many times and as I look upfield, it's not like he has anyone WIDE OPEN. Most of the eligible WR's seem to be covered pretty well for the most part so Roethlisberger begins to buy time in order to free someone up.

That's all that I wanted to say on the matter. I believe that Arians has recently received a lot of credit for an offensive system that Roethlisberger alone has managed to kick start.

Well Put . I Thank you for your point of view as l am done bashing BA .

I will say this not everybody who is in a position of importance or leadership is good at what they do. That should be obvious to all of us. I think BA is not very good at what he does.

STEEL-MAN
02-17-2009, 02:18 PM
Not a big fan but he did win the SB as chef of the offense. I liked the job he did last year more than this but our running game was better. I don't care how good the play is designed or when it is called, the running game sets up everything. WE didn't scare anyone this year running the ball. Boils down to players making plays, the losses on the O line hurt the running game. We still have to many sacks but that did get better as the season progressed, I think next year with a season under their belt the O line will be set.

SteelMember
02-17-2009, 02:34 PM
I just hope he can improve the "red zone" offense.

There are too many points being left on the field.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-17-2009, 02:46 PM
Well Put . I Thank you for your point of view as l am done bashing BA .

I will say this not everybody who is in a position of importance or leadership is good at what they do. That should be obvious to all of us. I think BA is not very good at what he does.

I was never a "basher" of Arians, but dont agree with his offensive philosophy. I think its very similar that very few would consider Kevin Gilbride to be an offensive genius, but the Giants won a Super Bowl with him as the OC. Same can be said of Arians and the job he did for the Steelers.

scsteeler
02-17-2009, 03:12 PM
I just hope he can improve the "red zone" offense.

There are too many points being left on the field.


Now this I do agree with ( I am not saying this is Arian's Fault )!!! The red zone offense needs improvement. Had we gone into the endzone each time we made it inside the 2 yard line with 2 plays to make a TD the Superbowl would have been out of reach by the middle of the 3rd quarter.


Like other areas we have complained about this will be corrected this upcoming year also.

Morgan
02-17-2009, 05:24 PM
Yeah, I do have to say I've been very frustrated in particular with his short yardage play calling. We had what, 7 tries at the endzone in the SB and settled for a FG? I know we don't have Bettis, but are you KIDDING me?

HometownGal
02-17-2009, 05:46 PM
Without bashing Arians, because HometownGal has advised against it, I just want to make one point.



When the hell did I ever "advise" against penning constructive criticism with regard to any player or coach, particularly Arians??? I am a known Arians supporter and you are a known Arians basher. Just because I disagree with most of your comments with regard to BA doesn't mean you aren't permitted to voice them. I have absolutely NO problem with constructive criticism if warranted - it's the unwarranted destructive criticism that I have a problem with - for the record. And speaking of a "record" - the Arians slamming around here for months on end was like a broken record. Get your story straight, sir. Thank you. :drink:

revs - you are spot on with your commentary. :thumbsup::drink: Whenever the O didn't play up to their capabilities, it was BA who was the game scapegoat, but when the O prospered, not once was he given even a smidgeon of credit around here. Obviously the guy knows his stuff or Tomlin wouldn't have given him the promotion and most certainly wouldn't be retaining him as OC. DUH. :doh: I love the trust BA has put Ben, allowing him to call his own plays depending on what he is reading from the opposing D. They have a great relationship and that relationship is paramount to Ben's successes. With one of the worst OL's in the NFL this season, I think the guy has done a damned good job. :thumbsup:

SteelerTim
02-17-2009, 06:06 PM
When the hell did I ever "advise" against penning constructive criticism with regard to any player or coach, particularly Arians??? I am a known Arians supporter and you are a known Arians basher. Just because I disagree with most of your comments with regard to BA doesn't mean you aren't permitted to voice them. I have absolutely NO problem with constructive criticism if warranted - it's the unwarranted destructive criticism that I have a problem with - for the record. And speaking of a "record" - the Arians slamming around here for months on end was like a broken record. Get your story straight, sir. Thank you. :drink:

revs - you are spot on with your commentary. :thumbsup::drink: Whenever the O didn't play up to their capabilities, it was BA who was the game scapegoat, but when the O prospered, not once was he given even a smidgeon of credit around here. Obviously the guy knows his stuff or Tomlin wouldn't have given him the promotion and most certainly wouldn't be retaining him as OC. DUH. :doh: I love the trust BA has put Ben, allowing him to call his own plays depending on what he is reading from the opposing D. They have a great relationship and that relationship is paramount to Ben's successes. With one of the worst OL's in the NFL this season, I think the guy has done a damned good job. :thumbsup:

Hey, we just won the SB and there you go bashing our O-line. It didn't take long. :wink:

tony hipchest
02-17-2009, 06:18 PM
Now, you can say what you like but I'm going to say what I believe. When Roethlisberger extends a play, as only Roethlisberger can do, the original "Arians play design" has already run its course and is therefore defunct at that point. Designed WR routes are ran in 2 to 3 seconds. When Roethlisberger extends a play to 5 or 6 seconds, NO Steelers WR is running a designed route at that time. It's essentially sandlot football at that point. We've seen many instances such as I've mentioned above. Hell, that's what Roethlisberger is known for across the NFL, a guy who extends the play.

Why does Ben have to extend so many plays? Is it because the offensive line doesn't protect well enough? Or maybe it's because the designed WR routes aren't getting anyone open. I've seen Roethlisberger pressured many times and as I look upfield, it's not like he has anyone WIDE OPEN. Most of the eligible WR's seem to be covered pretty well for the most part so Roethlisberger begins to buy time in order to free someone up.

.now i know youre gonna say i am picking on you or trying to "muscle you up" or whatever, but this is completely wrong. the arians offense is designed around opening up and taking shots downfield. many of them atleast 40 yards downfield (hence they test "40" times).

there isnt a single receiver in the league who can cover 40 yds in just 4 seconds, let alone when they are in pads, getting jammed, and having their routes redirected by a defender.

ben is relatively inexperienced to his peers at the qb position, and is still learning to anticipate his wr's getting open as opposed to waiting for them to get open. he has thrown his fair share of interceptions in the past trying to learn this. to cut down on those int's he has taken more sacks as opposed to making a mistake.

arians has not handcuffed him because of this. he has called his offense and allowed ben to grow, develop, and learn from his mistakes, while still running an aggressive pro-style offense, as opposed to some high percentage, dink and dunk, play mistake free, and use the passing game to supplant the running game, west coast offense.

fwiw, my stance on arians is about midway between revs and gonzo (although i sure as hell was pissed at arians after the philly game and glad when tomlin emphasized to bruce that we get back to 25+ rushing attempts near the end of the season.)

DACEB
02-17-2009, 06:45 PM
ben is relatively inexperienced to his peers at the qb position, and is still learning to anticipate his wr's getting open as opposed to waiting for them to get open. he has thrown his fair share of interceptions in the past trying to learn this. to cut down on those int's he has taken more sacks as opposed to making a mistake.

arians has not handcuffed him because of this. he has called his offense and allowed ben to grow, develop, and learn from his mistakes, while still running an aggressive pro-style offense, as opposed to some high percentage, dink and dunk, play mistake free, and use the passing game to supplant the running game, west coast offense.

fwiw, my stance on arians is about midway between revs and gonzo (although i sure as hell was pissed at arians after the philly game and glad when tomlin emphasized to bruce that we get back to 25+ rushing attempts near the end of the season.)

great post!!!!!

The philly game is a great point of emphasis. As pointed out by the OP, once again BA couldn't get going against a pressure man defense.

HometownGal
02-17-2009, 06:59 PM
Hey, we just won the SB and there you go bashing our O-line. It didn't take long. :wink:

Do you disagree, smarty pants? :wink02: I wasn't the first to criticize the OL's play and I won't be the last. However, I am on record as saying that they upped their play going into the playoffs and the Super Bowl.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-17-2009, 07:05 PM
great post!!!!!

The philly game is a great point of emphasis. As pointed out by the OP, once again BA couldn't get going against a pressure man defense.

The Philly game was close and everybody wrongly gets wound up because of the sacks. Ron Jaworski broke down the film of that game and attributed:

- 3 sacks to WR's/TE's not recognizing the hot reads
- 3 sacks to QB's holding onto the ball too long
-3 sacks to O line breakdown (I thought it was 4 myself)

The only way you can pin the Philly game on Arians is by saying those 3 sacks the QB held onto it too long were because of slow developing plays. Those 3 arent gonna break us. I just wanted to see us line up and run at Javon Kearse on the edge as he isnt a good run defender.......and we didnt. That I was disappointed by in that game.

DACEB
02-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Whenever the O didn't play up to their capabilities, it was BA who was the game scapegoat, but when the O prospered, not once was he given even a smidgeon of credit around here.

Hmmm.....
I'll give credit to Tomlin for initiating a change midway through the season. I'll give credit to Ben, Santo and even the o-line for winning the bowl, and getting out of the hole BA dug.

Pi Kapp Steeler
02-17-2009, 07:14 PM
I just hope he can improve the "red zone" offense.

There are too many points being left on the field.

More Red Zone success, BRING OUR RUNNING GAME back, fix the O-line, get a FB, and get rid of that damn 5 wr screen you always run bruce, then you can take the dunce hat off your head for me.

DACEB
02-17-2009, 07:21 PM
The Philly game was close and everybody wrongly gets wound up because of the sacks. Ron Jaworski broke down the film of that game and attributed:

- 3 sacks to WR's/TE's not recognizing the hot reads
- 3 sacks to QB's holding onto the ball too long
-3 sacks to O line breakdown (I thought it was 4 myself)

The only way you can pin the Philly game on Arians is by saying those 3 sacks the QB held onto it too long were because of slow developing plays. Those 3 arent gonna break us. I just wanted to see us line up and run at Javon Kearse on the edge as he isnt a good run defender.......and we didnt. That I was disappointed by in that game.

First off if the WRs & TEs weren't recognising the hot reads BAs to blame. He, as the OC or previously the WRs coach, is responsible for that.

You point out yourself that the playcalling was suspect in that game.

tony hipchest
02-17-2009, 07:25 PM
The only way you can pin the Philly game on Arians is by saying those 3 sacks the QB held onto it too long were because of slow developing plays. Those 3 arent gonna break us. I just wanted to see us line up and run at Javon Kearse on the edge as he isnt a good run defender.......and we didnt. That I was disappointed by in that game.and in defense of arians, it was most likely tomlins call in what direction we would go once willie was injured.

go with the rookie rb?
go with the 3rd down/cheap f.a. pick up back?
or go with the pro bowl, sb champ qb?

seems like a no brainer. from what i recall, the full extent of willies injury wasnt known until after the game. i think he continued playing and it just seemed like we kinda abandonned the run.

-not bruce's fault (though i was definitely screaming "WTF???")

St33lersguy
02-17-2009, 07:33 PM
The problem is he runs a bland cupcake offense, he does what everyone in America expects him to do. He doesn't try to fool defenses he just calls cupcake bulls*** plays that everyone anticipates. If he was really any good then why didn't he use a no huddle which worked SOOOOOOOOOOOO well for us. If we had a better OC the Steelers would probably went 15-1. But hey just goes to show us how superb the rest of our team is.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-17-2009, 07:53 PM
First off if the WRs & TEs weren't recognising the hot reads BAs to blame. He, as the OC or previously the WRs coach, is responsible for that.

You point out yourself that the playcalling was suspect in that game.

Sorry, when the safety blitz came off the left side and Hines Ward runs from the slot position just left of the OT and doesnt look inside for the pass........its Hines Ward's fault, not Bruce Arians!!

I do believe the playcalling was a bit suspect, but I cant honestly blame the offensive coordinator when Hines Ward and Heath Miller dont recognize a blitz and fail to look inside to the QB...........as much as the fans hate to blame their football heroes, IT WAS WARD AND MILLER'S FAULT.

HometownGal
02-17-2009, 07:57 PM
Hmmm.....
I'll give credit to Tomlin for initiating a change midway through the season. I'll give credit to Ben, Santo and even the o-line for winning the bowl, and getting out of the hole BA dug.

:banging::banging::banging:

I respect your opinion, DACEB, though I vehemently disagree. I give credit where credit is due and imho, BA was just as much a part of our O flourishing in the playoffs and the SB as any of the players mentioned, including the OL who, as I've said before, really stepped it up in the playoffs and the big dance.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-17-2009, 07:58 PM
and in defense of arians, it was most likely tomlins call in what direction we would go once willie was injured.

go with the rookie rb?
go with the 3rd down/cheap f.a. pick up back?
or go with the pro bowl, sb champ qb?

seems like a no brainer. from what i recall, the full extent of willies injury wasnt known until after the game. i think he continued playing and it just seemed like we kinda abandonned the run.

-not bruce's fault (though i was definitely screaming "WTF???")

Nah, the no brainer is you give the ball to your capable 5 year veteran Mewelde Moore and let the O line do what they are good at.........run blocking. Everybody and their dog knows the Steelers O line's weak point is trying to pass protect against a 7 man blitz for 4 seconds.

DON'T CALL A 20 YARD IN ROUTE AGAINST A JIM JOHNSON DEFENSE BLITZING 6 AND 7 GUYS!!! That was the real no brainer. The desire to make the talent(or lack thereof) conform to your system instead of tailoring your system around the strengths of the players is what hurt in that game and many others. That is what lost the philly game.

revefsreleets
02-17-2009, 08:02 PM
Arians can't execute plays. He can't account for opposing DC's finding the right play to counter his. He can't account for specific breakdowns.

I STILL maintain that if he had a GREAT offensive line, our O would be 3X more effective. We don't. But we still win, and won the SB.

Give this guy a great OL and we will tear this league apart.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-17-2009, 08:04 PM
:banging::banging::banging:

I respect your opinion, DACEB, though I vehemently disagree. I give credit where credit is due and imho, BA was just as much a part of our O flourishing in the playoffs and the SB as any of the players mentioned, including the OL who, as I've said before, really stepped it up in the playoffs and the big dance.

And that is where I vehemently disagree. Those guys were capable of doing the job all season, but were not given the chance. Its like employing 5 ditch diggers to complete tax returns.

In the (Cleveland game) "playoffs and big dance", the OC finally gave those 5 guys shovels and let them do what they are able to do.......beat up on the D-lines instead of letting the D-lines beat up on them.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-17-2009, 08:08 PM
I STILL maintain that if he had a GREAT offensive line, our O would be 3X more effective. We don't. But we still win, and won the SB.

Give this guy a great OL and we will tear this league apart.

I still maintain that if we give him a great O line that Ben will only be sacked 40 times and the Steelers will have around the 15th ranked offense in the league..........and still win the Super Bowl if the Defense stays in tact.

If somebody like Chan Gailey or Norv Turner ran this offense, the Steelers would have looked like the '85 Bears all season.

revefsreleets
02-17-2009, 08:10 PM
I still maintain that if we give him a great O line that Ben will only be sacked 40 times and the Steelers will have around the 15th ranked offense in the league..........and still win the Super Bowl if the Defense stays in tact.

If somebody like Chan Gailey or Norv Turner ran this offense, the Steelers would have looked like the '85 Bears all season.

That's cool. You are, by proxy, saying YOU would be a more capable OC than Arians.

I mean, that is what it is, man...it's all good but...ummmmm.....it's all good....:tt03:

tony hipchest
02-17-2009, 08:13 PM
Arians can't execute plays. He can't account for opposing DC's finding the right play to counter his. He can't account for specific breakdowns.

I STILL maintain that if he had a GREAT offensive line, our O would be 3X more effective. We don't. But we still win, and won the SB.

Give this guy a great OL and we will tear this league apart.agree... ESPECIALLY if mendenhall/sweed/spaeth live up to potential (which i think they will).

Nah, the no brainer is you give the ball to your capable 5 year veteran Mewelde Moore and let the O line do what they are good at.........run blocking. Everybody and their dog knows the Steelers O line's weak point is trying to pass protect against a 7 man blitz for 4 seconds.

.i kinda thought the same, having followed m. moore his 1st 3 years in the league thanks to being a fantasy football manager. :chuckle:

he's always proven to be a big game, primetime player when given the opportunity.

i felt the coach and OC knew something i didnt. :noidea:

cubanstogie
02-17-2009, 08:14 PM
A lot of us pro Ben guys say screw stats the guy wins. Arians now has some credibility as well. I already know our Defense won it for us no need to tell me. You don't come in with a new system and new personnel and have all cylinders clicking at the same time. I imagine all of us fans have been befuddled once or twice at some of his calls, but the fact is we can't always run it on short yardage with success and were forced to throw and vice versa. Its called arm chair QB ing. Arians may not be an offensive genius, but that is cyclical anyway. Someone always finds a way to beat the system. Mike Martz is considered by many as an offensive genius but I believe is unemployed. Whether you like BA or not the SB win bought him some time and I believe it is deserved. It is kind of like owning a house or a golf swing, its never perfected and always a work in progress.

Steelerman67
02-17-2009, 08:17 PM
The real problem I have with our offense are just two items that I think need to be tweaked.

1) Why in Gods name do we always let the play clock go down to 1? This makes is so easy for the defense to bring the blitz against us, and this is in part why I think Ben does so well in the no huddle offense, the defense reacts instead of attacks when Ben is in the shotgun/no huddle set. Both 4 minute and 2 minute offense. I would like to see more of the no huddle during the game to change things up. And I would also like to see Ben mix up the cadence and timing instead of going down to one second. Now, maybe they are trying to give their defense a rest or something, trying to milk the clock, but I think it's just a bad scheme.

2) Why the heck do we take ALL of our skill players out inside the 10? Why do we constantly bunch everyone up with two tight ends and Davis/(any other big slow back) are together in the backfield? I hope the winning drive would teach them something, KEEP YOUR BEST PLAYERS ON THE FIELD! 2 slow tight ends and two slow full backs? Even if you want to fake and throw, how are these SLOW guys going to get open? That's why we scored that TD in the end. Skill players need to be on the field when in SCORING position, isn't that why we are down there? To Score? That makes me pull my hair out sometimes!!!

Other than that I can't complain cuz we won another one, but I can imagine how good we can be if we fix those two things. SPREAD EM OUT then try to run on the goal line LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE DOES! AND KEEP YOUR BEST WR'S ON THE FIELD SO THEY HAVE TO AT LEAST GUARD THEM!!!! :banging:

PHEW! Glad I got that off my chest. :thumbsup:

Stlrs4Life
02-17-2009, 08:22 PM
I don't really have a problem with the guy. Just at times his play calling leaves me scratching my head.


I agree, especially when we are in the red zone, and on the goal line.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-17-2009, 08:29 PM
That's cool. You are, by proxy, saying YOU would be a more capable OC than Arians.

I mean, that is what it is, man...it's all good but...ummmmm.....it's all good....:tt03:

Please point out where I said that I would be a more capable OC than Arians. I basically said that Chan Gailey or Norv Turner would be more capable than Arians.

Wow.....use diversion much? :wink:




I think BA is a good OC, just as I think Kevin Gilbride is a good OC, but average, middle of the road coordinators.....nothing more. Both are super bowl winners, but coordinators that benefitted from Dick Lebeau and Steve Spagnolo respectively for their rings.

revefsreleets
02-17-2009, 08:43 PM
Please point out where I said that I would be a more capable OC than Arians. I basically said that Chan Gailey or Norv Turner would be more capable than Arians.

Wow.....use diversion much? :wink:




I think BA is a good OC, just as I think Kevin Gilbride is a good OC, but average, middle of the road coordinators.....nothing more. Both are super bowl winners, but coordinators that benefitted from Dick Lebeau and Steve Spagnolo respectively for their rings.


Diversion?

C'mon...really? I mean, I DID originate this thread. It was sourced. Do you really think I'm running away? From my own assertions?

You gotta do better than that...I'm disappointed.

StainlessStill
02-17-2009, 08:44 PM
My intake on the guy is this..

Arians first year as OC was a good one in '07. The Steelers offense blew up, and was on pace to set records (in house.) This newly un-predictable Steelers offense allowed for Ben Roethlisberger's record setting year in touchdowns, and was second in the league only behind Tom Brady in many Quarterback statistical categories. Willie Parker was the NFL's leading rusher for most of the season, and would have been the winner if he wouldn't of broke his leg week 16 in St. Louis. Arians called an iffy last half of the season that year, but overall, did a great job to begin to open up the offense for years to come.

This year, he didn't have the shot. All year long we just couldn't keep the same product out on the field in full strength, and believe it or not, injuries at key positions sometimes limits the play calling of certain plays against certain teams, gameplans, and situations. Anyone who has ever played the game knows this, and even though he play-called some IFFY games, and there were some bad ones.. one could forget that there was reasoning behind all of this. Coaches coach, players play.

In a nutshell, I say give Arians a shot in '09 with an open mind and let him work with an offense that is healthy, and clicking on all cylinders. If he screws up this year at full strength then the jury will be out on Arians. Until then, lets give the guy a shot at a team that could play to its full potential.

devilsdancefloor
02-17-2009, 09:53 PM
he should take out the qb draw & that damn delayed draw lol! BA is not a bad OC he just cant run his O the way he wanted to due to injuries and the oline. Ther was a few times this year hwere we would have the lead and it was like he put the O in Neutral or just maybe they where not executing:noidea:, but it seemed that way.

Steelers & I
02-17-2009, 11:50 PM
now i know youre gonna say i am picking on you or trying to "muscle you up" or whatever, but this is completely wrong. the arians offense is designed around opening up and taking shots downfield. many of them atleast 40 yards downfield (hence they test "40" times).
there isnt a single receiver in the league who can cover 40 yds in just 4 seconds, let alone when they are in pads, getting jammed, and having their routes redirected by a defender.

ben is relatively inexperienced to his peers at the qb position, and is still learning to anticipate his wr's getting open as opposed to waiting for them to get open. he has thrown his fair share of interceptions in the past trying to learn this. to cut down on those int's he has taken more sacks as opposed to making a mistake.

arians has not handcuffed him because of this. he has called his offense and allowed ben to grow, develop, and learn from his mistakes, while still running an aggressive pro-style offense, as opposed to some high percentage, dink and dunk, play mistake free, and use the passing game to supplant the running game, west coast offense.

fwiw, my stance on arians is about midway between revs and gonzo (although i sure as hell was pissed at arians after the philly game and glad when tomlin emphasized to bruce that we get back to 25+ rushing attempts near the end of the season.)


Flex all that you want to flex Tony, I'm not scared. I have quite an impressive flex myself.:drink:

I've complained in the past about the "long to develop WR routes". Probably not the smartest move on Arians part when you consider that the Steelers field an average at best offensive line.

tony hipchest
02-17-2009, 11:59 PM
Flex all that you want to flex Tony, I'm not scared. I have quite an impressive flex myself.:drink:

I've complained in the past about the "long to develop WR routes". Probably not the smartest move on Arians part when you consider that the Steelers field an average at best offensive line.by all means show us what you got.

"not the smartest moves" was tearing up teams in the playoffs on way to a 6th championship win.

seriously... what do you got?

Steelers & I
02-18-2009, 12:07 AM
When the hell did I ever "advise" against penning constructive criticism with regard to any player or coach, particularly Arians??? I am a known Arians supporter and you are a known Arians basher. Just because I disagree with most of your comments with regard to BA doesn't mean you aren't permitted to voice them. I have absolutely NO problem with constructive criticism if warranted - it's the unwarranted destructive criticism that I have a problem with - for the record. And speaking of a "record" - the Arians slamming around here for months on end was like a broken record. Get your story straight, sir. Thank you. :drink:

revs - you are spot on with your commentary. :thumbsup::drink: Whenever the O didn't play up to their capabilities, it was BA who was the game scapegoat, but when the O prospered, not once was he given even a smidgeon of credit around here. Obviously the guy knows his stuff or Tomlin wouldn't have given him the promotion and most certainly wouldn't be retaining him as OC. DUH. :doh: I love the trust BA has put Ben, allowing him to call his own plays depending on what he is reading from the opposing D. They have a great relationship and that relationship is paramount to Ben's successes. With one of the worst OL's in the NFL this season, I think the guy has done a damned good job. :thumbsup:

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=33016

Damned straight and I don't want to hear any more f'in whining about Arians either.


http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=33016&page=2

Well - Ben called a lot of the plays, but Bruce designed 'em. I'm serious - I don't want to hear one more derogatory remark about that man.


I believe that my story is as straight as an arrow, Mam. Thank You. :drink:

tony hipchest
02-18-2009, 12:09 AM
c,mon arnold.

put your money where your flex is and tell us how a 5- 7 step dropback, play action, or roll out develops in 2-3 seconds.

Steelers & I
02-18-2009, 12:16 AM
by all means show us what you got.

"not the smartest moves" was tearing up teams in the playoffs on way to a 6th championship win.
seriously... what do you got?

That's not my style, to try and act like a cyber tough guy. We get enough of that Mickey Mouse crap from you.


It has also created close to 90 Roethlisberger sacks over the past 2 seasons as he awaits those, 40 plus yard WR routes to develop. Speaking of "tearing up", I think that Roethlisberger is the one who is being torn up.


Now I'm off to edit my ignore list. You have a good one tough guy.

tony hipchest
02-18-2009, 12:22 AM
That's not my style, to try and act like a cyber tough guy. We get enough of that Mickey Mouse crap from you.


It has also created close to 90 Roethlisberger sacks over the past 2 seasons as he awaits those, 40 plus yard WR routes to develop. Speaking of "tearing up", I think that Roethlisberger is the one who is being torn up.


Now I'm off to edit my ignore list. You have a good one tough guy. :sofunny:

quit trying to pathetically portray me as some internet rambo.

i am more like homey da clown who simply bops little kids on the heads with his stuffed sock and declares "homey dont play dat" as people sit and watch and laugh and think to themselves, "yeah, homey dont play that bullshit".

put your money where your mouth is and explain how one gets off 5-7 step drops, play action, or rollouts in 2-3 seconds.

:chicken:

MACH1
02-18-2009, 12:22 AM
c,mon arnold.

put your money where your flex is and tell us how a 5- 7 step dropback, play action, or roll out develops in 2-3 seconds.

Are you pickin on the mentally challenged again, tough guy. :chuckle:

tony hipchest
02-18-2009, 12:30 AM
Are you pickin on the mentally challenged again, tough guy. :chuckle:lol.

no..... "homey dont play dat"

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh134/Z-Lias/BamaClownGIF5.gif[/QUOTE]

MACH1
02-18-2009, 12:33 AM
:toofunny::toofunny:

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-18-2009, 12:48 AM
Diversion?

C'mon...really? I mean, I DID originate this thread. It was sourced. Do you really think I'm running away? From my own assertions?

You gotta do better than that...I'm disappointed.

No, I never meant that you are running away. I made a statement that Chan Gailey or Norv Turner could take this same team and operate a much better offense with the same talent. Your response was to fabricate that I said I would be a better OC than Arians.

Instead of defending the point that Arians is better than Chan Gailey by some kind of statistic based on Gailey ran offenses, you resort to what..........putting words in my mouth??? I too am disappointed.

Arians is an average offensive coordinator, who I think was much more imaginative in Cleveland and can call some real good games. He is just like Chris Kemoateu, adequate at what he does, but there are much better out there.

Steelers & I
02-18-2009, 05:40 AM
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2008/06/13/does-roethlisberger-hold-onto-the-ball-too-long/


Is Roethlisberger the Steelers' Sack Problem?
Posted Jun 13th 2008 9:26 AM by JJ Cooper (author feed)

Filed Under: Steelers, AFC North, Pittsburgh
This post is part of a series of posts that try to figure out who's to blame for the Steelers sack problems. The first story in the series listed how many sacks each lineman was responsible for. Now we're looking at how much of the blame can be put on quarterback Ben Roethlisberger. Click here for all the posts in the series. To get this data, I went back and rewatched all 53 sacks from the Steelers' 2007 season including the playoff game, logging the type of rush, the time it took for the defender to get to Roethlisberger, who was responsible and any mitigating factors.

If Sean Mahan has gotten the majority of the blame for the Steelers' sack problems from Steelers fans and media members, Ben Roethlisberger hasn't been far behind. The logic is that the Steelers' guarterback holds onto the ball so long that he turns incomplete passes into sacks.

It's hard to argue the point. We all have seen numerous plays where Roethlisberger has slipped out of a blitzing linebacker's grasp, scrambled to the outside and then found Hines Ward or others downfield. But we've also seen plays where he spotted a blitzing cornerback, figured he could break the tackle, and went down on the initial hit. There are plays where Roethlisberger hangs on to the ball, gets hit and taken down when a quarterback who's less of a gambler would have simply thrown the ball into the stands.

SACKS FROM
3-MAN RUSH
<3 seconds 1
3-4 seconds 2
4+ seconds 1

SACKS FROM
4-MAN RUSH
<3 seconds 15
3-4 seconds 9
4+ seconds 7

SACKS FROM
5-MAN RUSH
<3 seconds 8
3-4 seconds 2
4+ seconds 1

SACKS FROM
6-MAN RUSH
<3 seconds 4
3-4 seconds 1
4+ seconds 0

SACKS FROM
7-MAN RUSH
<3 seconds 2
3-4 seconds 0
4+ seconds 0


While it happens, it's not happening as often as you may think. By my count, 30 of the Steelers 53 sacks were recorded on plays where Roethlisberger was initially hit in three seconds or less. From everything I can find, three seconds appears to be the generally accepted amount of the time when the warning bell in the quarterback's head starts to go off. On most plays, the line is expected to give the quarterback three seconds to drop back, set up, check one and maybe two receivers and get the ball out.

While the time to initial hit is not an absolute measure of whether Roethlisberger had time to pick out a receiver, it is a helpful indicator of whether the line did its job. There's no doubt that the 16 sacks that Roethlisberger took in 3.0 seconds or less against straight-up three or four-man rushes are the fault of the offensive line--it's not asking too much for five linemen to block four defensive linemen for three seconds. And it's actually pretty reasonable to expect that Roethlisberger will have four seconds to pick out a receiver against a three-man rush--after all, there are eight men in coverage so there's less open spaces for receivers to find.

As one of the commenters pointed out during the season, there is a difference between having three seconds to throw against a four-man rush and having three seconds to throw against a six-man rush. But the fact that 16 of the Steelers sacks came on plays where Roethlisberger was hit in less than three seconds by a three or four-man rush is a pretty clear sign of some serious offensive line problems. To put it in perspective, the Saints gave up 16 sacks all season.

On the other hand, I counted 19 sacks that could be termed coverage sacks. Not all of those are Roethlisberger's fault , but a large number of those sacks come on plays where someone like Peyton Manning might have thrown the ball away and avoided the sack.

In a most extreme case, there was a play against the Rams recorded a sack 6.3 seconds after the snap. No line can reasonably be asked to hold out a four-man rush for more than six seconds. There were three more sacks that took longer than five seconds to occur, and another five that took longer than four seconds. That's nine sacks where the line can reasonably say that Roethlisberger was asking too much from them.

Two of the Steelers sacks came on screen plays where the defense sniffed out the screen. Those can be blamed on play calling rather than any player--it's the offensive lineman's job to let the rush by, and if the rush gets to Big Ben too quickly while the running back is covered, it's better to take a sack than risk an interception.

I counted a total of 17 sacks that could reasonably be termed coverage sacks. Those include the nine sacks where Roethlisberger held onto the ball too long, several where there simply was no one open, and a couple of plays where an overload block left the line and backs with more blitzers than they could block., In one case Roethlisberger simply stepped out of bounds behind the line.

But here's the bad news for the Steelers offensive line--those 36 other sacks would still rank as a below average line (33 of them happened during the regular season). That would be worse than 16 other NFL teams by itself. And if you allow that even the best quarterback is going to hold on to the ball too long a couple of times a year, and that there will be four or five plays where a bad play call leaves the quarterback helpless and it's hard to envision any way that the Steelers would have given up less than 40 sacks with this line.

And there's one other factor to acknowledge. While Roethlisberger's decision to hang onto the ball may be responsible for some of the sacks, we also know that his size, strength and scrambling ability also keep him out of several sacks a season on plays where the average quarterback would have gone down.

This is a rough approximation, but if you blame 15 of the Steelers' 2007 sacks on Roethlisberger's tendency to hold onto the ball (and that's holding him to a very high standard), but also credit him with five sacks he avoided by breaking out of tackles where the average quarterback would have gone down, you're looking at him costing the team 10 sacks a season. That's a significant number, but the reality is that the Steelers line would give up plenty of sacks whether it was Roethlisberger or Dan Marino under center.

Steelers & I
02-18-2009, 05:54 AM
Now granted, the above mentioned numbers were compiled from the 2007 season but were talking about the same QB, the same Offensive Coordinator, and the same offensive philosophy in general.

While it happens, it's not happening as often as you may think. By my count, 30 of the Steelers 53 sacks were recorded on plays where Roethlisberger was initially hit in three seconds or less. From everything I can find, three seconds appears to be the generally accepted amount of the time when the warning bell in the quarterback's head starts to go off. On most plays, the line is expected to give the quarterback three seconds to drop back, set up, check one and maybe two receivers and get the ball out.
Imagine that. I find it disturbing to learn that a couple of Steelers fans were not aware of this BASIC pass protection theory. :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

That's right, he did say most plays.

While the time to initial hit is not an absolute measure of whether Roethlisberger had time to pick out a receiver, it is a helpful indicator of whether the line did its job. There's no doubt that the 16 sacks that Roethlisberger took in 3.0 seconds or less against straight-up three or four-man rushes are the fault of the offensive line--it's not asking too much for five linemen to block four defensive linemen for three seconds. And it's actually pretty reasonable to expect that Roethlisberger will have four seconds to pick out a receiver against a three-man rush--after all, there are eight men in coverage so there's less open spaces for receivers to find.

Which always led me to ask WHY an offensive coordinator, with this knowledge at his fingertips, would design the "long to develop WR routes" that seemed to be so plentiful in the Steelers playbook.

In a most extreme case, there was a play against the Rams recorded a sack 6.3 seconds after the snap. No line can reasonably be asked to hold out a four-man rush for more than six seconds. There were three more sacks that took longer than five seconds to occur, and another five that took longer than four seconds. That's nine sacks where the line can reasonably say that Roethlisberger was asking too much from them.

Huh, what's he talking about. Some expect the Steelers offensive line to block for 6 seconds on a routine basis. I mean heck, with all the play-action pass plays and 40 yard WR routes. That's pretty much routine isn't it? And this guy is speaking of ONLY a 4 man rush. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

So what's the writers point? Arians asked too much from the Steelers offensive line the entire 2007 season.

DACEB
02-18-2009, 07:10 AM
Instead of defending the point that Arians is better than Chan Gailey by some kind of statistic based on Gailey ran offenses, you resort to what..........putting words in my mouth??? I too am disappointed.

That's what he's good for. Even this so called 'end all thread' is nothing but irrelevant gibberish.

C'mon...really? I mean, I DID originate this thread. It was sourced. Do you really think I'm running away? From my own assertions?

You gotta do better than that...I'm disappointed.

You should be embarrassed, the self proclaimed student of BAs philosophy. It must have been tough to come up with the crap that you did swimming through all the negative articles about BA. Your summary was basically copied verbatim from one of the articles you linked. Nothing to add on your own? I mean, you've been studying him since Clev.

I like the way you extract an article about why the screens didn't work against man pressure D, and try to validate why they didn't work ALL year. Press coverage? Try putting men in motion. The Ward quote was almost laughable. Why are they in 3rd & 13 to begin with? Why does the D seem to know whats coming?

My least favorite part is when you insult our intelligence by 'sourcing' a blogger. Does that mean you don't respect any of our opinions here on this forum, but yet that of a blogger who is no different than us.

Arians was promoted by current Steelers coach Mike Tomlin to offensive coordinator, and now he’s back in the Bowl again, this time with his 22nd-ranked offense riding the coattails of the No.1 defense in football

That was a great quote from your own linked article.

I don't know how hard you worked for this thread, but I read everything with an open mind and was extremely disappointed and uneducated. Tony and Gonzo provide much better analysis through their own assertions and opinions. Thanks guys!

DACEB
02-18-2009, 07:18 AM
Sorry, when the safety blitz came off the left side and Hines Ward runs from the slot position just left of the OT and doesn't look inside for the pass........its Hines Ward's fault, not Bruce Arians!!

I do believe the playcalling was a bit suspect, but I cant honestly blame the offensive coordinator when Hines Ward and Heath Miller don't recognize a blitz and fail to look inside to the QB...........as much as the fans hate to blame their football heroes, IT WAS WARD AND MILLER'S FAULT.

Understood, completely. I remember that play 100%.

Who, though, is responsible for getting everyone on the same page. The OC.

You might say that the WRs coach and TE coach plays a role in that as well. BA was the WR coach prior to his job as OC. Do you see where I'm going with this? Is my assumption wrong?

DACEB
02-18-2009, 07:20 AM
Arians may not be an offensive genius, but that is cyclical anyway.

Whether you like BA or not the SB win bought him some time and I believe it is deserved. It is kind of like owning a house or a golf swing, its never perfected and always a work in progress.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Rick5895
02-18-2009, 07:37 AM
Arians does a great job between the 20's, its his play calling in the red zone that baffles me, empty backfield sets, removing Parker from the games (Russell from right to left in SB for a 4 yard loss, instead of straight ahead)
But it's more than Arians on the O. It really looked like some of the Linemen didn't know there responsabliies on blitz, however, I have been an "Arians Basher" all year but I will face the facts he does a decent job, and the problems with the O are nothing a couple of good O lineman additions couldn't fix.

HometownGal
02-18-2009, 08:39 AM
http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=33016




http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=33016&page=2




I believe that my story is as straight as an arrow, Mam. Thank You. :drink:

OK - you got me. :wantsome: Obviously I said those things, but it was in the heat of the moment after we had won the SB and was in response to Gary's thread to "Get Off Ben's Ass". After almost every game this season, even those we won, this board was filled with anti-Ben, anti-Arians and when FWP was playing, anti-Parker comments, even in threads that really had nothing to do with any of them. I guess I tend to look for the positive aspects of a game to focus on instead of spending my time trying to find a couple of negative needles in the haystack to B & M about.

P.S. Making the comments I did in the heat of the moment doesn't mean that people aren't permitted to express their opinions. I was just sick to death of some of the post-game Negative Neds who showed their fonts around here not to celebrate a victory, but to nitpick and bash.

My apologies.

SteelMember
02-18-2009, 08:49 AM
I am tending to agree with the El-Gonzo side of this argument. Arians is a good, not great OC. He can get the job done once he realizes the limitations of his personnel. Once he updates his game plan from what he would like to do (maybe things gleaned from what other teams did against an opponent) to what his players can have success with. I believe he started opening his options with a little help from others in the organization at the end of the year...namely Mike Tomlin.

Arians can't execute plays. He can't account for opposing DC's finding the right play to counter his. He can't account for specific breakdowns.

I STILL maintain that if he had a GREAT offensive line, our O would be 3X more effective. We don't. But we still win, and won the SB.

Give this guy a great OL and we will tear this league apart.

If ANY coach had a great, pro-bowl offensive line, then their job wouldn't be as difficult and they could probably draw up anything they wanted. I personally don't think having a great line makes you a great coach. Utilizing the talent that you have available and putting them into situations to make them successful is more my definition of a great coach. :noidea:

Steelcitygal87
02-18-2009, 09:02 AM
I am tending to agree with the El-Gonzo side of this argument. Arians is a good, not great OC. He can get the job done once he realizes the limitations of his personnel. Once he updates his game plan from what he would like to do (maybe things gleaned from what other teams did against an opponent) to what his players can have success with. I believe he started opening his options with a little help from others in the organization at the end of the year...namely Mike Tomlin.



If ANY coach had a great, pro-bowl offensive line, then their job wouldn't be as difficult and they could probably draw up anything they wanted. I personally don't think having a great line makes you a great coach. Utilizing the talent that you have available and putting them into situations to make them successful is more my definition of a great coach. :noidea:

Excellent post. :thumbsup:

DACEB
02-18-2009, 09:34 AM
Utilizing the talent that you have available and putting them into situations to make them successful is more my definition of a great coach.

100% correct. I think that's why Arians and Zierlein get hammered so often by the fans.

HometownGal
02-18-2009, 09:46 AM
I am tending to agree with the El-Gonzo side of this argument. Arians is a good, not great OC. He can get the job done once he realizes the limitations of his personnel. Once he updates his game plan from what he would like to do (maybe things gleaned from what other teams did against an opponent) to what his players can have success with. I believe he started opening his options with a little help from others in the organization at the end of the year...namely Mike Tomlin.



If ANY coach had a great, pro-bowl offensive line, then their job wouldn't be as difficult and they could probably draw up anything they wanted. I personally don't think having a great line makes you a great coach. Utilizing the talent that you have available and putting them into situations to make them successful is more my definition of a great coach. :noidea:

Nice post. :drink:

I don't feel that Arians needs to be a "great OC" - he did what he needed to do this season to get our O flourishing and on the same page just in time for the playoffs by doing just what you mentioned - utilizing the talent he had available and putting them into situations to make them successful. Though I am admittedly a supporter of BA, there were a few times this season when I questioned some of the play-calls but then reality bit me in the ass and I realized again why he is in the position he is in and I'm watching the game from the outside looking in. :chuckle: People also seem to forget that BA allows Ben to call a lot of his own plays or change them at the line, which I feel has made Ben an even better QB. On the flip side of the coin, however, once in a while Ben fubared in what he called (as Arians did) but thems the breaks. It happens.

On a final note - I believe having an average to above-average OL can open up a coach's playbook a little more so that there is more of a balance to work with. Though our OL this season overall wasn't what I would call "average to above-average" and I believe the Steelers won despite the line's poor play, they got it done throughout the playoffs and in the Super Bowl where it counted the most. :thumbsup:

DACEB
02-18-2009, 10:01 AM
Making the comments I did in the heat of the moment doesn't mean that people aren't permitted to express their opinions. I was just sick to death of some of the post-game Negative Neds who showed their fonts around here not to celebrate a victory, but to nitpick and bash.

My apologies.

I would hope, HTG, that you're not the only one permitted to inadvertantly blurt something out in the heat of the moment. I believe that to be the case with many of the 'negative neds' or 'haters', as you and others so fondly call us that critique the team. Sometimes people voice something out of pure frustration, as you illustrated.

Once again, everyone is different as to how they support and respond to their teams play. I don't believe anyone appreciates having their fanhood challenged. Especially by someone who can never offer a counterpoint to a logical football discussion, but instead can only respond with 'the team/coaches/FO know better'. (revs)

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-18-2009, 10:10 AM
Understood, completely. I remember that play 100%.

Who, though, is responsible for getting everyone on the same page. The OC.

You might say that the WRs coach and TE coach plays a role in that as well. BA was the WR coach prior to his job as OC. Do you see where I'm going with this? Is my assumption wrong?

I see where you were going and it does make some sense. My personal belief is that at the snap of the football the coach cant do anymore and the WR's have to recognize blitz and help out the QB.............if the coaches didnt prepare them for that scenario things are different, but I think a vet like Hines Ward should know his responsability.

tony hipchest
02-18-2009, 10:16 AM
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2008/06/13/does-roethlisberger-hold-onto-the-ball-too-long/


Is Roethlisberger the Steelers' Sack Problem?
Posted Jun 13th 2008 9:26 AM by JJ Cooper (author feed)

That's a significant number, but the reality is that the Steelers line would give up plenty of sacks whether it was Roethlisberger or Dan Marino under center.
:applaudit: you went through alot of trouble to quote a blog but in bold is the crux of the matter.

good offenses with great protection routinely have 3-4 seconds to set up a pass play. how many times have we witnessed brady and manning set up a tent and start a camp fire while sitting in their snug little pocket (no coincidence they are among the highest scoring teams)?

great job suggesting arians switch our entire identity and offensive philosophy and quickly convert to a dink and dunk west coast offense so he can maximize the lacking skills of the o-linemen. :thumbsup:

:rolleyes:

HometownGal
02-18-2009, 10:17 AM
I would hope, HTG, that you're not the only one permitted to inadvertantly blurt something out in the heat of the moment. I believe that to be the case with many of the 'negative neds' or 'haters', as you and others so fondly call us that critique the team. Sometimes people voice something out of pure frustration, as you illustrated.



No - of course I'm not the only one permitted to vent out of frustration - everyone is entitled to voice their opinions, myself included. My problem with the "Neggie Neds and haters" (and you included yourself in that bunch - I didn't really see you in that light :noidea:) is that nothing positive ever comes from their fonts - it's just the same old drivel, different game. They hang in the Game Day threads frothing at the mouth when a play doesn't work or the other team scores and rarely ever come around unless it is to complain, ignoring the positives and dig until their fingers are raw to find something - anything - to B & M about.

Ben suuuuuuuucks.
Parker suuuuuuuucks.
Arians suuuuuuuucks.

It's redundant and it's sickening - even more so when the Steelers played a good game and won. :banging:

Hey - no team ever plays a perfect game, the Steelers included, and I've done my fair share of "critiquing" when I don't like something I see, but after I speak my peace, I let it go and move on to getting ready for the next game, as the Steelers themselves do.

DACEB
02-18-2009, 10:18 AM
I see where you were going and it does make some sense. My personal belief is that at the snap of the football the coach cant do anymore and the WR's have to recognize blitz and help out the QB.............if the coaches didnt prepare them for that scenario things are different, but I think a vet like Hines Ward should know his responsability.

Understood. BTW, that's why I remember that play 100%, because I was yelling at the screen "c'mon Hines, you know better!".

atlsteelers
02-18-2009, 10:22 AM
i think arians is average at best but we just won the damn superbowl and i am still enjoying it. so i will worry about arian's pitfalls next fall.

DACEB
02-18-2009, 10:33 AM
No - of course I'm not the only one permitted to vent out of frustration - everyone is entitled to voice their opinions, myself included. My problem with the "Neggie Neds and haters" (and you included yourself in that bunch - I didn't really see you in that light :noidea:) is that nothing positive ever comes from their fonts - it's just the same old drivel, different game. They hang in the Game Day threads frothing at the mouth when a play doesn't work or the other team scores and rarely ever come around unless it is to complain, ignoring the positives and dig until their fingers are raw to find something - anything - to B & M about.

Thanks for understanding that I wasn't attacking you, and thank you for acknowledging my fanhood!:chuckle:

You also pointed out one of the reasons I myself don't post in the gameday threads, because I'm out of control during games!!:drink:

What I find funny about this whole thing is that I don't have nearly as big a problem with BA as I do revs. While many posted negatives with BAs playcalling, or discussed offensive theories, revs continually bashed those posters with blind homerism. Never once, not even now, involving himself in logical football discussion.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-18-2009, 10:47 AM
i think arians is average at best but we just won the damn superbowl and i am still enjoying it. so i will worry about arian's pitfalls next fall.

AMEN to that brother!!!!!

Hammer67
02-18-2009, 11:01 AM
All of this back and forth is moot. They won the SB. The offensive line sucks and isn't geared for a passing attack. There were injuries to RB's and O linemen. Ben likes to work outside the pocket. All of these things add up to sacks and poor performance.

I think Steeler fans give Arians a hard time because they are so used to seeing 3-4 yards and a cloud of dust, pound em out offense. This is not that, and for some reason there are those that think you can't without it.

I still say that the Detroit Lions will trade the Steelers for practically any player or coach...including the practice squad. Let's be happy for a second that this is our biggest dilema after a SB win...the second in 3 years.

drizze99
02-18-2009, 11:02 AM
I think Arians sucks because I do not like his offensive schemes, his inability to game plan or alternate game plans, and his play calling. It is very, very seldom that I watch a Steelers game and say "Arians called a great game"

He is a failed shitstain O.C. and the only reason why he "looks" good here is because of the talent we have on offense. I would never have him OC a team of mine.

Pi Kapp Steeler
02-18-2009, 11:11 AM
When we are in the Redzone I want to see the team score 7 rather than 3 all the time. We need to learn how to finish our drives. Some many times we had opportunities to light up the score board but we always seem to play conservative when we get past the 20yd line.

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 11:16 AM
That's what he's good for. Even this so called 'end all thread' is nothing but irrelevant gibberish.



You should be embarrassed, the self proclaimed student of BAs philosophy. It must have been tough to come up with the crap that you did swimming through all the negative articles about BA. Your summary was basically copied verbatim from one of the articles you linked. Nothing to add on your own? I mean, you've been studying him since Clev.

I like the way you extract an article about why the screens didn't work against man pressure D, and try to validate why they didn't work ALL year. Press coverage? Try putting men in motion. The Ward quote was almost laughable. Why are they in 3rd & 13 to begin with? Why does the D seem to know whats coming?

My least favorite part is when you insult our intelligence by 'sourcing' a blogger. Does that mean you don't respect any of our opinions here on this forum, but yet that of a blogger who is no different than us.



That was a great quote from your own linked article.

I don't know how hard you worked for this thread, but I read everything with an open mind and was extremely disappointed and uneducated. Tony and Gonzo provide much better analysis through their own assertions and opinions. Thanks guys!


Ad Hominem attack. You attack ME not my arguments, and when you do attack my arguments, you just deride them with nothing but your own self-important know-it-all nonsense. I find it especially amusing that you claim I'm not engaging in logical football discussion even though that's pretty much what my first two posts were. If I DON'T post sources you'll say I just made it all up. If I post a blog, you question the bloggers credibility. Since I DID post sources, you use that against me and say that none of my ideas were my own. It's just a no-win with you because your mind was made up and YOU KNOW IT ALL ALREADY. Meanwhile, you pretty much rely on blasting me. That's weak. But, hey, whatever dude...

You have an agenda, and nothing will dissuade you of it. You cherry pick and take the side of those who suppport your views. That's fine.

As I said, since you already know everything about football, this thread isn't for you. That's fine as well.

As for you not caring much for me, that's more than fine.

But attack the arguments. Attack the sources. Attack specifics. I'm perfectly within my rights to say that the FO and Tomlin and the Rooney's know more about football than you BECAUSE THEY DO! That can't really be argued. They know more than you.

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 11:58 AM
As for the arguments about Norv Turner and Chan Gailey being better OC's, this is a pretty easy assertion to refute. Both have been available in the recent past (Since Tomlin has been coach). Why didn't the Steelers fire Arians and hire either one? They had the opportunity. Both would almost certainly have accepted the offer.

But the Steelers chose to retain Arians.

The Steelers FO must not know what they are doing.

drizze99
02-18-2009, 12:07 PM
As for the arguments about Norv Turner and Chan Gailey being better OC's, this is a pretty easy assertion to refute. Both have been available in the recent past (Since Tomlin has been coach). Why didn't the Steelers fire Arians and hire either one? They had the opportunity. Both would almost certainly have accepted the offer.

But the Steelers chose to retain Arians.

The Steelers FO must not know what they are doing.

Turner sucks also. I don't like him at all and would never call for him..... As for Gailey, I liked him when he was with the Steelers in the 90's and I would take him back again.

Its up to Tomlin on who HE wants and he is happy with Brucey at the moment. Nothing I can do about it but in the same respect, I don't have to like or support him either.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-18-2009, 12:09 PM
As for the arguments about Norv Turner and Chan Gailey being better OC's, this is a pretty easy assertion to refute. Both have been available in the recent past (Since Tomlin has been coach). Why didn't the Steelers fire Arians and hire either one? They had the opportunity. Both would almost certainly have accepted the offer.

But the Steelers chose to retain Arians.

The Steelers FO must not know what they are doing.

Or it could be that Turner wasnt gonna turn down the head job at San Diego to be the OC in Pittsburgh and Tomlin valued continuity for his QB over an improvement in coordinators.

Either way, that is a much better response by you and one that I expected. Its better than trying to put words in my mouth or say that the Cleveland auto dealers assoc. keynote speaker said Arians is better than Gailey or Turner.

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 12:16 PM
Or it could be that Turner wasnt gonna turn down the head job at San Diego to be the OC in Pittsburgh and Tomlin valued continuity for his QB over an improvement in coordinators.

Either way, that is a much better response by you and one that I expected. Its better than trying to put words in my mouth or say that the Cleveland auto dealers assoc. keynote speaker said Arians is better than Gailey or Turner.

Norv Turner was available two years ago. Had the Steelers wanted him, I'm sure they could have approached him.

The keynote speaker was Cowher. Do you now know more about football than Bill Cowher? I'm sure DACEB does. He knows everything.

As for continuity, if Arians is so awful, why would the Steelers want to continue with a guy who sucks? Are they stupid? Apparently the FO is, because it's glaringly obvious to so many here how flawed Arians system is, how horrible a fit it is for the Steelers, yet they reatin his services year after year. How foolish of them.

drizze99
02-18-2009, 12:24 PM
If Arians is so great than why did he fail miserably when he was the OC at Cleveland?

tony hipchest
02-18-2009, 12:29 PM
Turner sucks also. I don't like him at all and would never call for him......wow.

emmitt smith, steven davis, rickey williams, ladainian tomlinson, frank gore all had some of their best seasons with norv as OC. im talking near 2000 yds and 20+ td seasons, (even record setting seasons).

willie or mendenhall would easilly shatter steeler rushing and scoring records with him as coordinator.

infact his offensive philosophy is more in line with old school, smashmouth, ball controll offense that people identify as "steelers football" and despise arians for aborting.

If Arians is so great than why did he fail miserably when he was the OC at Cleveland?cause cleveland sucks and anyone would fail with tim couch.

DACEB
02-18-2009, 12:30 PM
I find it especially amusing that you claim I'm not engaging in logical football discussion even though that's pretty much what my first two posts were.

Please, point out where in those posts YOU engaged in logical football discussion. Not some junk you pulled up, but your thoughts. After all you studied BA since he was in Clev. C'mon fraud, point it out, because you don't and never did!

You have an agenda, and nothing will dissuade you of it.

My agenda NOW is to prove that your a fraud. YOU were the one who talked shit about studying Arians all the way back to Clev, and you come up with this lame shit.

Stop, your only embarrassing yourself!!

drizze99
02-18-2009, 12:32 PM
wow.

emmitt smith, steven davis, rickey williams, ladainian tomlinson, frank gore all had some of their best seasons with norv as OC. im talking near 2000 yds and 20+ td seasons, (even record setting seasons).

willie or mendenhall would easilly shatter steeler rushing and scoring records with him as coordinator.

infact his offensive philosophy is more in line with old school, smashmouth, ball controll offense that people identify as "steelers football" and despise arians for aborting.

cause cleveland sucks and anyone would fail with tim couch.

Those running backs would have done just as good with any coordinator not named Martz.

SteelCityMom
02-18-2009, 12:45 PM
If Arians is so great than why did he fail miserably when he was the OC at Cleveland?

You really have to ask that question? Maybe he failed because the system as a whole hasn't worked in Cleveland in forever, lots of coaches and players have failed in Cleveland lol.

Better question would be, how did he go from failing in Cleveland to being successful in Pittsburgh? You do remember last year when the offense was a powerhouse and the Steelers had a league leading rusher, a number 2 rated QB and an OL that could actually block? Did you think he was failing last year as well?

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but sometimes injuries and players executing plays have something to do with whether or not an offense/defense looks good. Coaches can only coach, they can't go out there and make the plays too.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-18-2009, 12:46 PM
The keynote speaker was Cowher. Do you now know more about football than Bill Cowher?

As for continuity, if Arians is so awful, why would the Steelers want to continue with a guy who sucks? .

You took a polite statement by Bill Cowher at a Cleveland auto dealers meeting and made statements like this:

...I've been saying it, and I will continue to say it: Bill Cowher will be the Browns next coach, and he'll take them to a Super Bowl within his first 3 years.

...Steelers fans are the only people who can't see this happening, and that should tell you all you need to know.

...The beauty of this is this hiring will happen pretty fast after the Browns season is over, so I won't have to wait a long time to tell you "I told you so".

I dont know more than BC about football, but I guess by your statements you know more about BC than Steeler fans. :noidea:


BTW, I have never said Arians sucks

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 12:47 PM
Please, point out where in those posts YOU engaged in logical football discussion. Not some junk you pulled up, but your thoughts. After all you studied BA since he was in Clev. C'mon fraud, point it out, because you don't and never did!



My agenda NOW is to prove that your a fraud. YOU were the one who talked shit about studying Arians all the way back to Clev, and you come up with this lame shit.

Stop, your only embarrassing yourself!!

One trick pony. You pretty much attack me, and that's about it. I'm embarrassed for you...other than the screen play thing (which I only put in the thread to illustrate one particular point of bitchiness by the haters) you have nothing football-wise. Nada.

Arians sucked in Cleveland because that was a franchise that truly took ignoring the OL to new lows. While he was there that OL was HORRIBLE. He still managed to have a little success, particularly in 2002. Butch Davis simply would NOT address the OL.

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 12:49 PM
You took a polite statement by Bill Cowher at a Cleveland auto dealers meeting and made statements like this:

...I've been saying it, and I will continue to say it: Bill Cowher will be the Browns next coach, and he'll take them to a Super Bowl within his first 3 years.

...Steelers fans are the only people who can't see this happening, and that should tell you all you need to know.

...The beauty of this is this hiring will happen pretty fast after the Browns season is over, so I won't have to wait a long time to tell you "I told you so".

I dont know more than BC about football, but I guess by your statements you know more about BC than Steeler fans. :noidea:


BTW, I have never said Arians sucks

I'm wrong ALL the time. Difference between myself and people like you and DACEB is that I'll sack up and admit it.

This is kinda fun, though, watching you guys heap criticism on me...

verks36
02-18-2009, 12:50 PM
I don't really have a problem with the guy. Just at times his play calling leaves me scratching my head.

basically sums up what i think of him

Also it is his job to get our running game back to where it used to be

HometownGal
02-18-2009, 12:57 PM
My agenda NOW is to prove that your a fraud.

Ooooooo - I wouldn't do that if I were you. :nono:

Attack the post, not the poster.

drizze99
02-18-2009, 12:57 PM
You really have to ask that question? Maybe he failed because the system as a whole hasn't worked in Cleveland in forever, lots of coaches and players have failed in Cleveland lol.

Better question would be, how did he go from failing in Cleveland to being successful in Pittsburgh? You do remember last year when the offense was a powerhouse and the Steelers had a league leading rusher, a number 2 rated QB and an OL that could actually block? Did you think he was failing last year as well?

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but sometimes injuries and players executing plays have something to do with whether or not an offense/defense looks good. Coaches can only coach, they can't go out there and make the plays too.

Well mom, to be honest with you I didn't like him as a coordinator back then either. I am not a fan of his schemes.... good or bad. I do not like that his offense does not call for a fullback. I do not like double TE set as the base of our O. I hate his play calling most of the time.

The ONLY thing I like about him is that he is a players coach and he works with Ben on likes and dislikes...

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 01:01 PM
Ooooooo - I wouldn't do that if I were you. :nono:

Attack the post, not the poster.

That's a lot harder than just bashing me. But it's cool...I could care less one way or the other. It's just a diversionary tactic anyway.

Most of the people in the thread have stayed on-topic...

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-18-2009, 01:06 PM
I'm wrong ALL the time. Difference between myself and people like you and DACEB is that I'll sack up and admit it.

This is kinda fun, though, watching you guys heap criticism on me...

Sorry, but wrong again. Here is what I have posted before.

But what do I know.....I thought Javon Kearse was a tweener that would be a bust and he's probably in his 10th year in the league

I proudly will stand up as an "I told you.... fan". But I will tell you no matter if I was right or wrong, which some on this board cannot pull themselves to do.

When have you ever sacked up and said you were wrong about Cowher to the browns?? I thought you were just waiting to tell everybody I told you so. ??

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 01:13 PM
I not only admitted it, I HAPPILY admitted it. The whole point was I was bracing for the worst. I don't want him in Cleveland.

I wallpapered this website with my prognostications about Cowher going to the Browns. I did that on purpose.

DACEB
02-18-2009, 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DACEB
Please, point out where in those posts YOU engaged in logical football discussion. Not some junk you pulled up, but your thoughts. After all you studied BA since he was in Clev. C'mon fraud, point it out, because you don't and never did!

One trick pony. You pretty much attack me, and that's about it. I'm embarrassed for you...other than the screen play thing (which I only put in the thread to illustrate one particular point of bitchiness by the haters) you have nothing football-wise. Nada.

Still haven't pointed out anything you came up with. What's the problem, duarf?

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-18-2009, 01:15 PM
Here is what I posted about Arians back in Novermber. I prefer to think of myself as an objective Steeler fan and not somebody clinging to an arguement that refuses to see the other side.

A well called game by Arians.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calling all haters!! Come on now, you gotta give BA some credit for that game last night.

Using McHugh as a FB in the I formation was a good move. He took his shots downfield to back off the safetys, he called some timely screen passes to slow down the rush and blitz. He even had some quick slants to nullify the blitz and beat the press coverage.

I personally dont like Arians offensive system, but love his double pulling leads that use the OG and Heath Miller to lead for the RB (see the first play of the game). You have to give credit where due and he called a good game.

Or you can just say the players "executed" for a change and keep on hatin'.

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 01:22 PM
Quote:




Still haven't pointed out anything you came up with. What's the problem, duarf?

Still awaiting ANYTHING other than a personal attack. But it's your one and only trick.

DACEB
02-18-2009, 01:22 PM
I wallpapered this website with my prognostications about Cowher going to the Browns. I did that on purpose.

Ooooooo - I wouldn't do that if I were you. :nono:

Attack the post, not the poster.

Thank you HTG, I'm well aware of the rules. I would hope that you're not going to back a fraud or antagonist, but you've already applauded his (plagiarism) commentary.

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 01:26 PM
Thank you HTG, I'm well aware of the rules. I would hope that you're not going to back a fraud or antagonist, but you've already applauded his (plagiarism) commentary.

Uh huh. Still nuthin'...

DACEB
02-18-2009, 01:28 PM
Still awaiting ANYTHING other than a personal attack. But it's your one and only trick.

Still nothing? C'mon duarf, educate me. After all you are a student of Arians philosophy, right.

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 01:30 PM
Still nothing? C'mon duarf, educate me. After all you are a student of Arians philosophy, right.

Read my first two posts. Duarf? Really?

tony hipchest
02-18-2009, 01:32 PM
Those running backs would have done just as good with any coordinator not named Martz.actually thats not true.

steven davis was never as good before or after his 20+ td season with norv. rickey williams never had 1800+ yds before or after his season with norv., same can be said for gore. emmitt had tons of td's and stats but his best season was with norv.

LT had either 100 receptions with norv or it was 1000 rec yards (cant remember for sure).

he historically makes a good back great and a great back even better.

The_WARDen
02-18-2009, 01:36 PM
didn't they just win a SB? :noidea:

I have to admit that Arians did a decent job as the offense carried their share of the load in the playoffs when the defense wasn't playing historically well. I was concerned about that in December because I hadn't seen any proof. They proved me wrong and it was good to see.

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 01:38 PM
I will address the part about watching Arians as Cleveland's OC. Why wouldn't I? I live in Cleveland's primary market. I watch most of their games. I'm not a fan but it's what's on Sunday.

If you're going to attack parts of my argument, at LEAST pick something that you can really rail against.

Not only are you a one-trick pony, you are really bad at debate. Ad Hominem is your only angle of approach. Boring and tedious...

tony hipchest
02-18-2009, 01:41 PM
I not only admitted it, I HAPPILY admitted it. The whole point was I was bracing for the worst. I don't want him in Cleveland.

I wallpapered this website with my prognostications about Cowher going to the Browns. I did that on purpose.but you also arrogantly laughed and scoffed at those who logically suggested (and even brought some hints of insider info) it wasnt gonna happen, calling them blind homers in a demeaning condescending fashion. :noidea:

revefsreleets
02-18-2009, 01:43 PM
but you also arrogantly laughed and scoffed at those who logically suggested (and even brought some hints of insider info) it wasnt gonna happen, calling them blind homers in a demeaning condescending fashion. :noidea:


I'm a real asshole, aren't I?

Most of those arguments were ridiculously stupid.

Steelcitygal87
02-18-2009, 01:45 PM
I liked the way this poster broke down some plays from the Balt. vs Steeler game...(there are photos)


"Credit Bruce Arians for Development of Quick Hitting Passing Attack"....


http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/1/16/725795/credit-bruce-arians-for-de



"These plays just give a little glimpse into how Ben Roethlibserger is more than capable of avoiding the trouble that comes along with holding the ball too long. Bruce Arians had to re-work much of his offensive philosophy to get his players comfortable with a quicker hitting passing attack, but in the Baltimore game in Week 14, we got a good taste of how it can be successful, even against good teams."

tony hipchest
02-18-2009, 01:51 PM
I'm a real asshole, aren't I?

Most of those arguments were ridiculously stupid.more stupid than saying cowher would win cleveland a superbowl in 3 years? :chuckle: it took him 15 with a real franchise like the steelers.

SteelTalons
02-18-2009, 02:11 PM
Arians might not be perfect but he's not entirely to blame. People will say he is a moron till the end of time. Just like the asses that call for Ben and Willies heads. Or those after Tomlins head last year. Ive come to the conclusion that people are bitchy by nature and the only way to shut up the haters is to prove them wrong.

Well we had a piece together offense this past season and the hardest schedule. And yet we made the most of it and came out on top. Change up some of the players and let guys get healthy... We are looking good. Not to mention we saw what did and didnt work well and can build off of that. Combine that with a weak schedule this coming season and we could be seeing a lot of these whiners claiming he aint so bad afterall.

We're only human. You cant expect a picture perfect game all the time or a Superbowl every season. If they were so easy to get we'd have more than 6! Somethings happen what makes you great is how you work through them... And so far. His faith in Ben earns him my respect. He has reached out to Ben in a massive way. Rewording plays and stepping down and letting Ben take the controls when he is out of ideas. The fact that he can put his pride aside when he's lost as to what to do and just let Ben do his best speaks volumes about him and how GREAT he really is.

He can always improve but his character is hard to find.

HometownGal
02-18-2009, 02:18 PM
Thank you HTG, I'm well aware of the rules. I would hope that you're not going to back a fraud or antagonist, but you've already applauded his (plagiarism) commentary.

I agree with a lot of revs' commentary (as well as others) in this thread and I'm not going to apologize for it, just as I don't expect you to apologize for the way you feel. All I am asking here is that you attack the meat of the argument and knock off the name-calling. Calling someone a "dwarf" without addressing what it is you disagree with isn't productive and most definitely not mature. C'mon DACEB - you're better than that!

Steelers & I
02-18-2009, 02:19 PM
OK - you got me. :wantsome: Obviously I said those things, but it was in the heat of the moment after we had won the SB and was in response to Gary's thread to "Get Off Ben's Ass". After almost every game this season, even those we won, this board was filled with anti-Ben, anti-Arians and when FWP was playing, anti-Parker comments, even in threads that really had nothing to do with any of them. I guess I tend to look for the positive aspects of a game to focus on instead of spending my time trying to find a couple of negative needles in the haystack to B & M about.

P.S. Making the comments I did in the heat of the moment doesn't mean that people aren't permitted to express their opinions. I was just sick to death of some of the post-game Negative Neds who showed their fonts around here not to celebrate a victory, but to nitpick and bash.

My apologies.

No need to apologize, I was just trying to abide by your orders. I agree with your Arians threads assessment. There were definitely many of them and a lot of it was the same old $hit but you have to admit, Arians was and still is a hot topic that a lot of members want to debate/argue.

Even prior to your order, I laid off of Arians. During the post season I really didn't bash him at all. I think that most of us bashed him during the regular season because we felt that he would be the teams achilles heel in the playoffs.
Well the team obviously proved successful and whether I like the man or not, I have to admit that he played a part in the Super Bowl Championship. :drink:

Steelers & I
02-18-2009, 02:27 PM
Please, point out where in those posts YOU engaged in logical football discussion. Not some junk you pulled up, but your thoughts. After all you studied BA since he was in Clev. C'mon fraud, point it out, because you don't and never did!



My agenda NOW is to prove that your a fraud. YOU were the one who talked shit about studying Arians all the way back to Clev, and you come up with this lame shit.

Stop, your only embarrassing yourself!!


LMFAO

DACEB
02-18-2009, 02:43 PM
All I am asking here is that you attack the meat of the argument and knock off the name-calling.

No problem!

This guy attacks Gonzo and myself without ever attacking the meat of the argument, but I'm off base.

revefsreleets = duarf

Steelers & I
02-18-2009, 03:04 PM
I'm a real asshole, aren't I?

Most of those arguments were ridiculously stupid.

Well, since we're all being honest here, :flap:

Preacher
02-18-2009, 03:09 PM
We really need to fire LeBeau. He sucks. He couldn't stop a fourth quarter comeback.




















:chuckle:

Steelers & I
02-18-2009, 03:21 PM
We really need to fire LeBeau. He sucks. He couldn't stop a fourth quarter comeback.




















:chuckle:

Believe it or not Preacher, this Arians thread is 11 pages long and you're the first person to mention the word "FIRE".

All things considered, that's pretty amazing.

Preacher
02-18-2009, 03:26 PM
Believe it or not Preacher, this Arians thread is 11 pages long and you're the first person to mention the word "FIRE".

All things considered, that's pretty amazing.

11? It is only 2 pages long for me!



http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/loxwood/38/firefire.wav

DACEB
02-18-2009, 04:45 PM
We really need to fire LeBeau. He sucks. He couldn't stop a fourth quarter comeback.


:chuckle:

Thanks Preacher, I needed that!!! :chuckle:

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-18-2009, 05:14 PM
Most of those arguments were ridiculously stupid.

Don't you find it ironic that you are calling those arguements stupid, when what you posted was the furthest from the truth?? T&B fan posted that Cowher is happy with the TV gig and this is what you responded with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&B fan
good luck with that I think he is hapy with the TV gig .

Yup. And he also won't move from Carolina, and he's too loyal to the Rooneys, and yada yada yada...

Bill Cowher is about two things: The money and competition. The Browns will pay, and making them into Champions will test his mettle to the fullest. Taking the Browns to the promised land also secures his legacy and a place in Canton.

The first step to successfully beating anger issues is ........acceptance of the problem. :wave:

Steelers & I
02-18-2009, 06:39 PM
[QUOTE=El-Gonzo Jackson;566944]Don't you find it ironic that you are calling those arguements stupid, when what you posted was the furthest from the truth?? T&B fan posted that Cowher is happy with the TV gig and this is what you responded with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&B fan
good luck with that I think he is hapy with the TV gig .

Yup. And he also won't move from Carolina, and he's too loyal to the Rooneys, and yada yada yada...

Bill Cowher is about two things: The money and competition. The Browns will pay, and making them into Champions will test his mettle to the fullest. Taking the Browns to the promised land also secures his legacy and a place in Canton.

The first step to successfully beating anger issues is ........acceptance of the problem. :wave:[/QUOTE

boo-yah

Hammer67
02-19-2009, 08:47 AM
Those running backs would have done just as good with any coordinator not named Martz.

Which sort of answers your own question on why Arians failed in Cleveland...players have an awful lot to do with success of a coordinator. He calls the plays but the players have to execute said plays. Which they did quite well last year. They were decimated this year at RB and OL which would have destroyed any other offense...luckily our Defense and Ben's clutch playmaking led us to the SB.

Hammer67
02-19-2009, 08:56 AM
This thread reminds me of my grandfather...he LOVES to bitch about everything about the Steelers. They don't run enough, they don't pass enough, Ben holds the ball too long, the coach is black, the refs are blind, the line sucks, the playcalling sucks, the DB's suck, the trainer girl sucks, Steely McBeam sucks, Dan Rooney sucks....etc. etc. He contradicts himself and sometimes sounds completely ignorant even though he was a HS referee for years...

Some of us just need to bitch. At least we have a SB team to bitch about!

revefsreleets
02-19-2009, 09:44 AM
No problem!

This guy attacks Gonzo and myself without ever attacking the meat of the argument, but I'm off base.

revefsreleets = duarf

Attacks? Really? There isn't a single scarp of football talk in the last 10 of your posts, you call me names and attempt to beliitle me, all the while completely IGNORING football talk, THEN try to deflect by blaming ME for doing exactly what YOU are doing. Nice try.

Not surprising though, considering your general competence level when discussing the game of football. What else should I expect?

Gonzo, I just don't think you get it...it (Cowher)was like reverse psychology. Like picking the other team to win every week, etc, etc...

Now, as for the stupid excuses people were tossing around, yeah, I'll go there. Cowher doesn't give a flying eff about any kind of "loyalty" to the Rooney's. That's stupid. He's also NOT "Happy with his TV gig", and I'll be able to prove it...as soon as he signs his 10 mil a year coaching contract. It's a matter of where and when, not if.

I fail to see where I ever got angry. I find this whole situation pretty comical actually. Perhaps it might help if you guys stayed on topic instead of spending all your time trying to discredit (especially for silly things like the Cowher situation, which even apparently Tony just doesn't get) and belittle me, or call me stupid retarded names (like duarf, which makes about as much sense as DACEB trying to actually talk football, on the rare occasion that even occurs), we MIGHT actually have a little interesting football discourse.

This whole thread is about defending Bruce Arians. If you don't like Arians or his decision making, by all means, blast the man, and I'll take up his defense. But the rest of the bullshit you guys are spouting off is retarded. Stay on topic.

(By the by, I literally couldn't care less about some random MB posters calling me stupid names. Means less than zero to me either way...but it IS detracting from the purpose of the thread)

Jackal
02-19-2009, 09:50 AM
FIRE ARIANS!!!!


Sorry, just a reflex....


Hmm...Arians Nation. I like the sound of that.


Oh...wait...

steelpride12
02-19-2009, 09:54 AM
You know Arians i don't mind at all and his playes did help us to a Super Bowl victory like it or not. Some or alot of his plays did leave me clueless, but im hoping over the off season Arians and Ben work out plays that is more a liking to the offense and Ben at the helm, instead of play action on 3rd and 2 roll out turning into a sack. Alot of work needs done on the offense, but i still have confidence that Arians will get the job done this season once again.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 11:09 AM
Gonzo, I just don't think you get it...it (Cowher)was like reverse psychology. Like picking the other team to win every week, etc, etc...


Ahhhhhhh. OK. So this whole Arians is a great OC is reverse psychology too.........now I get it. :chuckle:

Honestly, I dont think I was verbally attacked by you, so whatever beef DACEB has about namecalling should not include me. While you may hack on other posters as "stupid" "myopic" or "retarded", you havent verbally attacked me since I was a newbie.

revefsreleets
02-19-2009, 11:21 AM
Arians is straight shooting. Cowher was not.

I like what Arians has done with the team, MOST notably because our 102 million dollar QB loves him. That's good enough for me.

I DO NOT want Cowher in Cleveland. The main reason it took so long for Cowher to get a ring was the inability of the Rooney's to shell out significant cash for a SB caliber QB. It's no coincidence that the stadium revenue begat Big Ben which begat SB wins.

Cleveland has deep pockets. They'd give Cowher whatever he needed. I think he'd win there immediately. I was hoping to "jinx" the Cowher transaction by insisting that it was gonna happen. As far as I know, it worked:wink02:

Now, back to Arians bashing...

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 11:36 AM
I really dont see a track record of great success with Arians anywhere but Temple and 1 season with the Browns. His offenses in Cleveland and Pittsburgh have been plagued by their inability to move the chains on 3rd and short or 4th down and short yardage.

Like I said, I think he is a good OC, but just an average OC and as long as our defense plays like it does, we can get by with average offense.

I just rewatched the Super Bowl again. (Man, its fun!!) and I noticed that the offense had only put up 13 points on the Cardinals in the first 58 minutes of the game and 2 times had to settle for FG's on the goal line........its actually pretty scary.

James Harrison's TD and Ben's final drive won that game. If either one of those things doesnt happen we would all be complaining that our offense cant convert on 3rd and short yardage..........and BA might be fired just like Clancy Pendergast was.

I'm happy that Ben and Silverback made those plays!!!!

Steelerman67
02-19-2009, 12:32 PM
I really dont see a track record of great success with Arians anywhere but Temple and 1 season with the Browns. His offenses in Cleveland and Pittsburgh have been plagued by their inability to move the chains on 3rd and short or 4th down and short yardage.

Like I said, I think he is a good OC, but just an average OC and as long as our defense plays like it does, we can get by with average offense.

I just rewatched the Super Bowl again. (Man, its fun!!) and I noticed that the offense had only put up 13 points on the Cardinals in the first 58 minutes of the game and 2 times had to settle for FG's on the goal line........its actually pretty scary.

James Harrison's TD and Ben's final drive won that game. If either one of those things doesnt happen we would all be complaining that our offense cant convert on 3rd and short yardage..........and BA might be fired just like Clancy Pendergast was.

I'm happy that Ben and Silverback made those plays!!!!

EXACTLY! This Arizona defense was not that great for most of the season, and I think our offense has scored not because of Arians, but because of Ben doing what he does. Two field goals after having 1st and goal! Why do we always "GO BIG" on the 1 yard line and BUNCH everyone up? Even if we wanted to fake and throw it, WHO THE HECK IS GOING TO GET OPEN? our fullback DAVIS!? Everyone can KEY on Heath Miller. We are practically the only team to go 2 FB and 2 TE's on goal line and we are too big and slow. Every other team spreads it out and keeps their WR's on the field so at least it KEEPS THE DEFENSE GUESSING. Did you watch the replay of the Super Bowl when EVERYONE CALLED OUT THE QB DRAW!?!? Hard to score when the know exactly what is coming.

If it wasn't for our defense, we don't even come close in this game. Thank God for the #1 defense. I can only imagine how much better we would be if we could score inside the 5.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 12:46 PM
EXACTLY! This Arizona defense was not that great for most of the season, and I think our offense has scored not because of Arians, but because of Ben doing what he does. Two field goals after having 1st and goal! Why do we always "GO BIG" on the 1 yard line and BUNCH everyone up? Even if we wanted to fake and throw it, WHO THE HECK IS GOING TO GET OPEN? our fullback DAVIS!? Everyone can KEY on Heath Miller. We are practically the only team to go 2 FB and 2 TE's on goal line and we are too big and slow. Every other team spreads it out and keeps their WR's on the field so at least it KEEPS THE DEFENSE GUESSING. Did you watch the replay of the Super Bowl when EVERYONE CALLED OUT THE QB DRAW!?!? Hard to score when the know exactly what is coming.

If it wasn't for our defense, we don't even come close in this game. Thank God for the #1 defense. I can only imagine how much better we would be if we could score inside the 5.

Remember the Cardinals 1st TD?? Run formation, play action pass to the TE for a TD!!! Remember the 1st Ravens game, same thing.......a TD from a power running formation to the TE Daniel Wilcox. We have these 3 TE sets on the goal line and never try to throw to Miller, Spaeth or McHugh.........instead looking for Carey Davis. :doh: or getting stuffed behind Stapleton.

As for the QB draw on the goal line, while I would like to see it done a little differently, I think if Kemoateu keeps blocking on Gabe Watson instead of just giving him a single push, that Ben gets close to scoring. That failed QB draw was more Kemo's fault than anything.

Steelerman67
02-19-2009, 12:57 PM
Remember the Cardinals 1st TD?? Run formation, play action pass to the TE for a TD!!! Remember the 1st Ravens game, same thing.......a TD from a power running formation to the TE Daniel Wilcox. We have these 3 TE sets on the goal line and never try to throw to Miller, Spaeth or McHugh.........instead looking for Carey Davis. :doh: or getting stuffed behind Stapleton.

As for the QB draw on the goal line, while I would like to see it done a little differently, I think if Kemoateu keeps blocking on Gabe Watson instead of just giving him a single push, that Ben gets close to scoring. That failed QB draw was more Kemo's fault than anything.

I hear ya! And I thought that too fi Kemo just blocks instead of a quick push Ben may get in, it's just that it seems like there is no imagination on the goal line or when we get close, and who takes all their best skill position players OUT when they try to score. Don't they throw to lob to Fitz almost every time, but yet he still gets 1 on 1 coverage on that play. How come? I'm not saying thats the only play to run, but we have that big rook and ward has great hands as well as santonio, you give them a quick slant and they will be golden more than not.

As good as our defense is, when a team gets 1st or 2nd and goal on the 1, they score a TD more often than not. Why is it so hard for us? We got lucky this year in settling for FG's but we can easily go 8-8 if we have such missed opportunities in the future.

I also hope mendenhall is the answer for our power back because Willie P is good, but he can't get 1 yard to save his life on short yardage. Maybe we can grab Larry Johnson for a decent price.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
02-19-2009, 01:18 PM
Now granted, the above mentioned numbers were compiled from the 2007 season but were talking about the same QB, the same Offensive Coordinator, and the same offensive philosophy in general.

[/B]
Imagine that. I find it disturbing to learn that a couple of Steelers fans were not aware of this BASIC pass protection theory. :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

That's right, he did say most plays.



Which always led me to ask WHY an offensive coordinator, with this knowledge at his fingertips, would design the "long to develop WR routes" that seemed to be so plentiful in the Steelers playbook.



Huh, what's he talking about. Some expect the Steelers offensive line to block for 6 seconds on a routine basis. I mean heck, with all the play-action pass plays and 40 yard WR routes. That's pretty much routine isn't it? And this guy is speaking of ONLY a 4 man rush. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

So what's the writers point? Arians asked too much from the Steelers offensive line the entire 2007 season.

During the Philly game this year they re-did those numbers and found that he had an average time of 1.5-2 seconds before he was contacted. Tom Brady had something like 5 seconds before going down.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 02:26 PM
I also hope mendenhall is the answer for our power back because Willie P is good, but he can't get 1 yard to save his life on short yardage. Maybe we can grab Larry Johnson for a decent price.

I dont want LJ and I dont need a big back. The O line should be able to get you 1 yard and the RB 2 more on top of that. Mendenhall will be fine...........Starks, Stapleton, Kemo need to be upgraded and a true lead FB needs to be found, unless Dezmond Sherrod can block.

But, then again, BA doesnt use a FB and that is probably one of the reasons that his offenses have struggled in short yardage wherever he has gone.

The traditional fullback position was never used effectively in Bruce Arians offensive scheme, but after Arians firing and new offensive coordinator Terry Robeiske hiring, the H-Back formation was long forgotten. To fit the mold of a powerful, push-the-pile type of FB, the Browns brought in Terrelle Smith who blocked for Deuce McCallister for the past few years in New Orleans http://football.about.com/od/teamsbrowns/a/aa083004.htm

DACEB
02-19-2009, 02:45 PM
Remember the Cardinals 1st TD?? Run formation, play action pass to the TE for a TD!!! Remember the 1st Ravens game, same thing.......a TD from a power running formation to the TE Daniel Wilcox. We have these 3 TE sets on the goal line and never try to throw to Miller, Spaeth or McHugh.........instead looking for Carey Davis. :doh: or getting stuffed behind Stapleton.

It's actually strange because we threw to the TE's quite a bit, early on the previous season, at the goal line with quite a bit of success. We seemed to go away from that even going back to last season.

I actually believed that during the reg. season Tomlin was mandating running at the goal line as an attritional value, or a way of gaining mettle no matter the result. I still believe that, but it probably displayed more than anything our lack of a true blocking FB. I think Tomlin realized that flaw in BAs system, and like everything else, quickly moved to rectify that by installing McHugh at FB and implementing more I-form.

I still think we can go big with the personnel we have and be successful. Miller is an incredible TE and Spaeth is a mismatch with his height. I completely agree that the formations, personnel and play-calling leave something to be desired. Just because we didn't run the ball consistently doesn't mean you abandon play-action.

I still haven't seen alot of the versatility that's capable with this offensive scheme. I'd like to see more motion of the TE's and WR's. Move Miller around more often and maybe get the D to show alittle of what their doing.

lilyoder6
02-19-2009, 03:33 PM
I dont want LJ and I dont need a big back.

well i would have to say the steeler organization would careless what U want.. lol
it's funny as u say I like u run the team..

i agree that the steelers don't need a LJ.. to much money and baggage

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 04:02 PM
well i would have to say the steeler organization would careless what U want.. lol
it's funny as u say I like u run the team..

i agree that the steelers don't need a LJ.. to much money and baggage

I thought its pretty apparent that the term "I" meant me personally. Now if I said " I dont want LJ and Mike Tomlin doesnt want a big back".......that would be different.

Its just funny that so many people on this board think we need a big RB when guys like Emmit Smith, LaDanian Tomlinson, or even Marion Barber (225lbs) are pretty effective short yardage runners.

silverbackattack
02-19-2009, 10:29 PM
I didn't read all 14 pages (at time of post) of this post so this may have already been related.

This post (as much as I hate to admit it) is right on the money. I have to say that I do not like or prefer this type of offense. It's definitely the type of offense that is hot in the NFL but I guess I'm just old school and like to see the 2 down pound and the 3rd and short anythings.

But, you're right, it's not about what you like to watch, it's about the coaching and the guy with the brains on the sideline. i just couldn't imagine trying to run any plays with the performance of the OL this year and yet BA has a ring.

Good job BA. This article has changed my opinion and outlook on an OL and an OC that I wouldn't have given a nickel for.

MongoSteeler
02-19-2009, 10:56 PM
I think that the approach the current Steelers TEAM is using is working, as witness another SUPER BOWL. Exceptional preparation and a team first attitude. If BA was not a respected part of the team, do you think he would still be a part of the team? The only complaint I heard from the team last season was WP and I'm sure that was just frustration on his part. Winning is everything, BUT not at all costs.

tony hipchest
02-19-2009, 11:37 PM
I just rewatched the Super Bowl again. (Man, its fun!!) and I noticed that the offense had only put up 13 points on the Cardinals in the first 58 minutes of the game and 2 times had to settle for FG's on the goal line........its actually pretty scary.

1 thing really bugs me about bens td on that 1st drive (other than the fact that it was reversed and probably never woulda been if it hadnt ben his sb XL rushing td combined with holmes vs ravens game winning td conroversy of this year).

in 4 consecutive plays arians/ ben made the right call 3 times and it shoulda been a TD in each of those.

#1- pass up the middle to heath for about 20 yds. he is tackled at the 1 yd line. 9 out of 10 times we see heath bowl over the defender for the td. great defensive play negates a great offensive call by arians.

#2- 1st and goal at the 1 and our run play (not to willie) is stuffed for a 4 yd loss.

#3- 2nd and goal from the 5 and willie looks like he has a big hole. defense closes down for a 4 yd gain. good run anywhere else but the 5 yd line.

#4- 3rd and goal from the 1. ben drops back, and decides (a half a second too late) that he has an open lane to run it in. he takes off from about the 10 yd line and comes up just inches short. i seriously believe ben is given the option to run or pass in those situations.

stopped inches short. ben reacts a tenth of a second sooner and it is a td.

arians play calling was 75% correct in those 4 plays, yet we still came up short. that is the story of our season. when a team is 75% correct every time they are 12-4 and in the playoffs.

i really think it is more of a miracle that kept those 4 steelers points off the board as opposed to our offensive ineptitude. (miller, heath, willie, almost never get tackled at the goal line, let alone 3 out of 4 consecutive plays).

revefsreleets
02-20-2009, 10:15 AM
By this logic, the Cardinals OC should have been fired, not promoted to HC of the Chiefs. I mean, the Cards highly ranked explosive offense couldn't get anything going at all until midway through the 2nd quarter. Then he failed miserably by calling the play that changed the game, resulting in Harrison's INT.

The major problem with all this is it once again completely ignore the Cards defensive efforts. The team was very average throughout the year, but really played well in the playoffs. It's not like they just laid down and let the Steelers do as they pleased.

It's much easier to look back with 20/20 hindsight and cherry pick things to criticize...

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 10:56 AM
By this logic, the Cardinals OC should have been fired, not promoted to HC of the Chiefs. I mean, the Cards highly ranked explosive offense couldn't get anything going at all until midway through the 2nd quarter. Then he failed miserably by calling the play that changed the game, resulting in Harrison's INT.
..

Actually, the parallel is that the Cardinals strongest unit has been their #4 Ranked offense, just as the Steelers strongest unit has been their #1 Ranked Defense. Both the Steelers Offense (Ranked #22) and the Cardinals Defense (Ranked #19) were the underperforming units and it is not unreasonable to see coordinators released that rank in the bottom half of the NFL.

I still think that if Ben does not engineer that final TD drive, then Arians could have been let go as easily as Pendergast. He only managed 13 points against the #19 ranked defense in the NFL and mostly because of failure in short yardage situations. He also only had the #17 ranked offense in 2007, so the offensive guru that is Bruce Arians still has not had an offense ranked in the top half of the NFL in his career. Pretty average offense and pretty average OC.

Hammer67
02-20-2009, 10:57 AM
Well, too often with numbers and statistics, we forget that football is a game of drive and emotion. If you played it on any level, you realize that sometimes, teams that were traditionally losers will get hot and win some games they are "not supposed" to. This was true with the Cardinals defense throughout the playoffs, including the SB where they put in a valiant effort against a mediocre OL of the Steelers. They almost won it...

revefsreleets
02-20-2009, 11:03 AM
Actually, the parallel is that the Cardinals strongest unit has been their #4 Ranked offense, just as the Steelers strongest unit has been their #1 Ranked Defense. Both the Steelers Offense (Ranked #22) and the Cardinals Defense (Ranked #19) were the underperforming units and it is not unreasonable to see coordinators released that rank in the bottom half of the NFL.

I still think that if Ben does not engineer that final TD drive, then Arians could have been let go as easily as Pendergast. He only managed 13 points against the #19 ranked defense in the NFL and mostly because of failure in short yardage situations. He also only had the #17 ranked offense in 2007, so the offensive guru that is Bruce Arians still has not had an offense ranked in the top half of the NFL in his career. Pretty average offense and pretty average OC.

Didn't realize that Arians was playing his own calls. This completely glosses over the myriad miscues and lack of execution by the players, as well as the only mediocre OL play in the game.

As Tony correctly pointed out, there was a lot of poor execution on solid playcalling. But if you have an agenda, I guess you need to stick with it, eh?

Also, please bear in mind that it's flawed logic to begin with. I was merely pointing out the nonsense by answering it with more nonsense...

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 11:15 AM
It's much easier to look back with 20/20 hindsight and cherry pick things to criticize...

Actually, it is easy to use hindsight, as BA has around a 4 year track record of offenses that cant convert short yardage. Here is what I posted in July of 2008. Before the season started:

Yeah, my whole issue with converting 3rd and short yardage is that 1. Davis isnt a good blocker. 2. Davis is undersized for a FB. 3. Our TE's are not good inline lead blockers.

The Bruce Arians school of short yardage is spread the field and either run a single back or throw for the first down. The higher percentage play is bring in your goal line offense and line up in the "I formation".

Billy Latsko or Carey Davis as FB dont allow the Steelers to run a short yardage offense and thus dont give the best chances to convert on those downs.

As Hammer said, the game of football involves emotions and when the O line was sent the message late in the season that they were gonna line up and play some smashmouth football, they responded. The were excited to be the hammer instead of the nail in blocking situations.

revefsreleets
02-20-2009, 11:21 AM
The constant? Bad OL's.

Since you said 4 years, that means you have to be going back to his days as the Browns OC. My God, you'd be hard pressed to find a worse OL than the POS they've put on the field (excluding last year) over the years since they've been back in the league.


As for spreading the field on 3rd and short, that's nothing new. That's his philosophy. If the Steelers don't WANT to run that kind of offense, there are other OC's available...but we've already run over that ground, haven't we?

Wait a second, though...since it's clearly established that that is the system that Arians runs, and you are saying it's wrong/ineffective, are you back to saying you know better? Than Arians? Than Tomlin? Than Rooney? Than the FO?

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 11:37 AM
The constant? Bad OL's.

Since you said 4 years, that means you have to be going back to his days as the Browns OC. My God, you'd be hard pressed to find a worse OL than the POS they've put on the field (excluding last year) over the years since they've been back in the league.


As for spreading the field on 3rd and short, that's nothing new. That's his philosophy. If the Steelers don't WANT to run that kind of offense, there are other OC's available...but we've already run over that ground, haven't we?

Wait a second, though...since it's clearly established that that is the system that Arians runs, and you are saying it's wrong/ineffective, are you back to saying you know better? Than Arians? Than Tomlin? Than Rooney? Than the FO?

Please stick to the topic.....Bruce Arians. Do not attempt to divert this thread, as you normally do, by attacking me with false accusations.

Facts are that Arians has commanded NFL offenses for 5 seasons and 3 of them have been playoff teams and here are his NFL rankings with those offenses.

2001- CLE ranked #31
2002- CLE ranked #23
2003- CLE ranked #26
2007- PIT ranked #17
2008-PIT ranked #22

You can claim lack of execution, bad players, etc. But the fact is that in 2006 when the Steelers were 8-8 and Ken Whisenhunt was the OC he still managed to have the #7 offense. Major offensive additions in 2007 were Matt Spaeth, Sean Mahan while the subtractions were Jeff Hartings and Jerame Tuman.

Why was Whisenhunt able to have the #7 ranked offense and Arians the following season with basically the same guys have the #17 ranked offense?? I would say history shows that Bruce Arians lead offenses are consistently average to below average.

revefsreleets
02-20-2009, 11:43 AM
On topic: What were the offense lines like on all those teams?

On topic: Do you agree or disagree that his philosophy is, as you say, to spread the field on 3rd down?

On topic: Do you agree or disagree with this philosophy?

On topic: Do you feel that the Steelers, who have hired and retained Arians KNOWING his philosophy are right or wrong?

On topic: Do you agree that there are other OC's available?

Where is this phantom "attack", by the way?

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 12:02 PM
On topic: What were the offense lines like on all those teams?

On topic: Do you agree or disagree that his philosophy is, as you say, to spread the field on 3rd down?

On topic: Do you agree or disagree with this philosophy?

On topic: Do you feel that the Steelers, who have hired and retained Arians KNOWING his philosophy are right or wrong?

On topic: Do you agree that there are other OC's available?

Where is this phantom "attack", by the way?

-2003 Cleveland O line was actually pretty good:
Ross Verba, Shaun O Hara, Jeff Faine, Ryan Tucker, Barry Stokes. (averaged 4.1 YPC and 104.4 YPG rushing) #26 RANKED OFFENSE IN NFL.

- I agree that BA spreads the field on 3rd and short most of the time (I dont like it)

- I like BA's multiple route options like he used in Cleveland and now in Pitt, I think they are creative. I dont like his short yardage philosophy.

-I think the Steelers are right in retaining BA for continuity and creative playcalling, but believe coach Tomlin should encourage BA to have a true FB on the roster and to run more "I-formation" and play action off that "I-formation" in short yardage. (like Tampa did with Alstott back in the day).

-I cant think of any decent OC available as Chan Gailey and Jeff Jagodzinski were recently hired by other teams.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 12:06 PM
Where is this phantom "attack", by the way?

Here it is......no phantom attack. In the following copies of your posts you call my point "nonsense" and again try to incinuate that I believe I know more than professional football staff, which we have already covered ......I do not.

-- Also, please bear in mind that it's flawed logic to begin with. I was merely pointing out the nonsense by answering it with more nonsense

---are you back to saying you know better? Than Arians? Than Tomlin? Than Rooney? Than the FO?

revefsreleets
02-20-2009, 12:23 PM
Faine was released because he underperformed. His later success is irrelevant. Verba? Stokes? O'Hara? What a reach.

Look at this stellar lineup in 2001:

LT Roman Oben
LG Jim Pyne
C Dave Wohlabaugh
RG Everett Lindsay
RT Steve Zahursky

Oben? Zahursky? Are you kidding me? The guy had NOTHING to work with. The fact is, the ONE constant with Arians through his years as OC is poor material to work with along the OL. It runs counter to your argument, so you'll never admit it, but it's pretty much an undeniable fact.

OK, so, staying on topic, you DO NOT like or agree with Arians 3rd down philosophy. But the Steelers, by all accounts, do. I do as well, especially because I believe it plays to our teams strengths, or, maybe more accurately, downplays our teams weakness So, well....um, err....there's that.

BA's deep crossing routes are also part of his overall philosophy. They are intended to cross up the DB's and get WR's open. Tough to do without protection up front, though, so he makes adjustments. Not much credit is ever afforded the guy for those adjustments, though...

Arians runs a FB on occasion. It's situational gameplanning. If he thinks that exploits a weakness of the team they are playing, we have a FB. If not, we don't. I'd MUCH rather stay flexible, run all kinds of schemes and formations, change it up and keep DC's guessing, especially with a shitty OL.

Norv Turner was available in january '06.
So was Jeff Jagodzinski.

I'm sure there have probably been at least 15 OC's available in the last couple years. Yet those idiots in Pittsburgh KEEP sticking with an "average OC". Why is that?

If you think that me pointing out another posters flawed logic (that wasn't even your post I was referencing), and asking if you know better than the FO of the Steelers is an attack, you need to grow some thicker skin. That's a complete joke...an effort at deflection, and an extremely lame effort at that.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 12:46 PM
-Jeff Faine, 1st round pick and pro bowler in 2007
-Ross Verba, 1st round pick of the Packers, protected Favre's left side for 5 seasons and Super bowl champion
-Ryan Tucker, 4th round pick and member of Rams Super Bowl O line
-Shaun O Hara, current member of Giants O line and Super Bowl champion
- Barry Stokes was the weak link of that O line, but the other 4 guys were solid.

A case can be made that the Browns 2003 offensive line was better than the Steelers 2008 offensive line. Anybody agree???

You forgot the other constant with the Arians offenses. Larry Zeirline has always been his O line coach. Coach Z really doesnt have a track record of excellence.

Dont worry about me, I have thick enough skin. I just want to make sure you dont deflect threads like you accuse others of doing. One could say that dredging up the 2001 Browns O line is diverting from the assertion that his 2003 O-line was pretty good and averaged 4.1YPC.....yet BA only had the #26 ranked offense because he could not convert on 3rd and 4th downs. :wink: But......you would never do that.

HometownGal
02-20-2009, 12:52 PM
I just want to make sure you dont deflect threads like you accuse others of doing.

Holy Mother of God - we have enough of that around here. :banging::banging:

I'm enjoying the debate between the two of you (other than a couple of the snarky comments) - it is very informative. Carry on! :drink:

atlsteelers
02-20-2009, 01:04 PM
Please stick to the topic.....Bruce Arians. Do not attempt to divert this thread, as you normally do, by attacking me with false accusations.

Facts are that Arians has commanded NFL offenses for 5 seasons and 3 of them have been playoff teams and here are his NFL rankings with those offenses.

2001- CLE ranked #31
2002- CLE ranked #23
2003- CLE ranked #26
2007- PIT ranked #17
2008-PIT ranked #22

You can claim lack of execution, bad players, etc. But the fact is that in 2006 when the Steelers were 8-8 and Ken Whisenhunt was the OC he still managed to have the #7 offense. Major offensive additions in 2007 were Matt Spaeth, Sean Mahan while the subtractions were Jeff Hartings and Jerame Tuman.

Why was Whisenhunt able to have the #7 ranked offense and Arians the following season with basically the same guys have the #17 ranked offense?? I would say history shows that Bruce Arians lead offenses are consistently average to below average.

when we had the #7 offense with whisenhunt in 2007 that was with a beat up ben (motocycle & appendix bursting).

so if you want to compare the offensive additioions in 2008 you should add a capable qb to arians fold.

revefsreleets
02-20-2009, 01:04 PM
-Jeff Faine, 1st round pick and pro bowler in 2007
-Ross Verba, 1st round pick of the Packers, protected Favre's left side for 5 seasons and Super bowl champion
-Ryan Tucker, 4th round pick and member of Rams Super Bowl O line
-Shaun O Hara, current member of Giants O line and Super Bowl champion
- Barry Stokes was the weak link of that O line, but the other 4 guys were solid.

A case can be made that the Browns 2003 offensive line was better than the Steelers 2008 offensive line. Anybody agree???

You forgot the other constant with the Arians offenses. Larry Zeirline has always been his O line coach. Coach Z really doesnt have a track record of excellence.

Dont worry about me, I have thick enough skin. I just want to make sure you dont deflect threads like you accuse others of doing. One could say that dredging up the 2001 Browns O line is diverting from the assertion that his 2003 O-line was pretty good and averaged 4.1YPC.....yet BA only had the #26 ranked offense because he could not convert on 3rd and 4th downs. :wink: But......you would never do that.

Let's address these one by one:
Faine- Released by the Browns for underperforming. Released. By the Browns. For underperforming. You can look it up. Again, I said his later success is irrelevant.
Verba- Probably the most solid guy on this line..Pack didn't want to resign him, though.
Tucker- Neck and neck with Verba. Rams didn't want to resign him, either.
O'Hara became a good lineman. But he's in the same boat as Faine. You're giving him credit for his later career.
Stokes isn't even on the map.
Darnell Stapleton won a Super Bowl. So did Willie Colon. Doesn't mean I'm gonna stock my team full of these kinds of guys.
Again, you say I'M deflecting by.....deflecting yourself. Stay on topic...I know it's hard, because you really want to belittle me, tell me how much more knowledgable about football you are, disparage my character and whatnot, but I'm sure you can keep this above board...

He who doth protest too much...

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 01:07 PM
Holy Mother of God - we have enough of that around here. :banging::banging:

I'm enjoying the debate between the two of you (other than a couple of the snarky comments) - it is very informative. Carry on! :drink:

Yo, HTG.......always happy to entertain. :juggle:

But, I have said my piece and its consistent of how I have felt since BA was the Browns OC, so I am out. Plus, I gotta go do some work before I get fired.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 01:10 PM
because you really want to belittle me, tell me how much more knowledgable about football you are, disparage my character and whatnot, but I'm sure you can keep this above board......

OK, before I go.

Revs, as I have said before I dont want to belittle you.......I'm just hoping that you realize what other posters feel like when you belittle them. Have, what is left of a good day. :wave:

DACEB
02-20-2009, 01:29 PM
This is actually pretty interesting, it's the second listing when you google BA.

http://firebrucearians.com/

must be pretty popular!!

HometownGal
02-20-2009, 03:10 PM
This is actually pretty interesting, it's the second listing when you google BA.

http://firebrucearians.com/

must be pretty popular!!

Don't think so, DACEB. The most replies to any thread in the "Fire Bruce Arians" forum is 17. :toofunny:

Not to mention the collective IQ on that forum is about 10.

"Fire Arians"

"No Don't"

"Fire Arians"

"No Don't"

:blah::blah::blah:

Guess the Steelers FO is going to be receiving a lot of resumes after next season. :rofl:

ChronoCross
02-21-2009, 02:34 PM
Why bash the guy.. anyways.. Once Big Ben has no huddle in affect Ben calls the plays and the Offense runs smoother anyways. So who is the better play caller when it comes down to winning the games.. Personally I get tired of waiting for the offense to go. We always have to wait until the last 2mins of the half are last 2 mins of the game before we get going and that is under no huddle and Ben calling and we scoring at that point in time. Personally even not in no huddle id just let Ben call the plays personally. He seems to reads whats going on the field then arians. I guess they both work together in some way to write the book to the way Ben needs it so Bruce plays his part.

Steelers & I
02-21-2009, 02:55 PM
Why bash the guy.. anyways.. Once Big Ben has no huddle in affect Ben calls the plays and the Offense runs smoother anyways. So who is the better play caller when it comes down to winning the games.. Personally I get tired of waiting for the offense to go. We always have to wait until the last 2mins of the half are last 2 mins of the game before we get going and that is under no huddle and Ben calling and we scoring at that point in time. Personally even not in no huddle id just let Ben call the plays personally. He seems to reads whats going on the field then arians. I guess they both work together in some way to write the book to the way Ben needs it so Bruce plays his part.

I agree with that assessment ChronoCross although a few others will tell you that Arians still calls the plays during no-huddle situations. :toofunny:

Can you imagine, Roethlisberger is hustling everyone, including himself, to the line of scrimmage. He's giving directions to the other players and in the midst of all of this, he's still able to hear Arians coming through loud and clear in his earpiece. Please.

lilyoder6
02-21-2009, 03:10 PM
i honestly think that BEN should become more of a peyton manning is, in the way he runs the offense... i think ben would be good at this, with BA going thru and giving inputs

markymarc
02-22-2009, 12:45 AM
Kudos to you revefsreleets for posting this thread. To be honest though I was expecting at least a few more posts for your support of Arians :chuckle: It's all good though because you put together information just like you stated you would. I did promise a rebuttal and will provide it within a few days. I look forward to contributing to your Arians thread.

Now there is one thing I can't understand for the life of me. Everyone and their mother wants to complain about the OL we have and state how it is a big weakness and I admit that I am of those individuals as well. But what I can't figure out is people who call out the OL are okay and that criticism is welcomed and yet anyone who wants to argue about Arians being a bad OC are crucified and frowned upon. But in the end it doesn't matter because we are Steelers fans and love this team no matter what. No one can ever question our love and passion for the Steelers. That is one argument that can't be made. Anyway, time to complete my homework.

Also, one more point while I don't care for Arians as an OC I will applaud and support him when things are done well. He has done some positive things in his 2 years here and those things will be pointed out in my argument as well.

Steelers & I
02-22-2009, 09:12 AM
Kudos to you revefsreleets for posting this thread. To be honest though I was expecting at least a few more posts for your support of Arians :chuckle: It's all good though because you put together information just like you stated you would. I did promise a rebuttal and will provide it within a few days. I look forward to contributing to your Arians thread.

Now there is one thing I can't understand for the life of me. Everyone and their mother wants to complain about the OL we have and state how it is a big weakness and I admit that I am of those individuals as well. But what I can't figure out is people who call out the OL are okay and that criticism is welcomed and yet anyone who wants to argue about Arians being a bad OC are crucified and frowned upon. But in the end it doesn't matter because we are Steelers fans and love this team no matter what. No one can ever question our love and passion for the Steelers. That is one argument that can't be made. Anyway, time to complete my homework.

Also, one more point while I don't care for Arians as an OC I will applaud and support him when things are done well. He has done some positive things in his 2 years here and those things will be pointed out in my argument as well.



AMEN!

revefsreleets
02-24-2009, 10:48 AM
I agree with that assessment ChronoCross although a few others will tell you that Arians still calls the plays during no-huddle situations. :toofunny:

Can you imagine, Roethlisberger is hustling everyone, including himself, to the line of scrimmage. He's giving directions to the other players and in the midst of all of this, he's still able to hear Arians coming through loud and clear in his earpiece. Please.

Regardless of who calls the plays in the no-huddle, those are STILL Bruce Arians plays that are being called.