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Preacher
02-18-2009, 02:23 PM
http://www.kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=333726


Interesting. Also interesting how they went about it. Seems to me, for the Supreme Court to overturn this, they will also have to overturn laws that allow the courts to process murder cases against men who kill women who are pregnant. . . charging double murder.

An example is the double murder charge that Scott Peterson faced. Here, the NOW picked up on the same issue.

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/04/24/fetal_harm/index.html


Interesting, to say the least.

7SteelGal43
02-18-2009, 02:35 PM
WOW !!!!! I'm shocked and completely thrilled over this ban on abortion. The very fact it specifies that life begins at fertilization is more than I could ever have hoped for in this day of "abortion will never be overturned, get used to it".

1. In my mind, there is no instance, and I repeat NO INSTANCE, where abortion is acceptable.

2. You can't have it both ways. If abortion is legal, there is no way you can charge somone with double murder for killing a pregnant woman. PERIOD.

klick81
02-18-2009, 02:57 PM
It'll be overturned. Only a matter of time, but it will be overturned.

The Patriot
02-18-2009, 03:48 PM
1. In my mind, there is no instance, and I repeat NO INSTANCE, where abortion is acceptable.


Except when the woman's life is seriously endangered by the pregnancy.

SteelCityMom
02-18-2009, 05:29 PM
I don't agree with this at all, and not on the basis that I think it's ok to have an abortion, I know myself that I would never be comfortable considering one, but banning it does not mean the act itself will stop. The government does not have a good track record as far as legislating morality goes. There will still be women who will choose to have abortions, they will just travel to Mexico or dirty back alleys or germ infested "doctors" offices to have them done, just as it was done before it was legalized. This will not change what people choose to do, it will just change how they do it.

In my opinion it's fine for states to do what they see fit, if the people that were voted into office get this law passed then so be it, I just don't expect the whole nation to follow suit anytime soon.

devilsdancefloor
02-18-2009, 05:55 PM
Sadly the genie has been let out of the bottle and not matter how much we want it backing it will never go back in. I am not for it all, but to boldly state under no circumstances is wrong also. This subject is the great divider among most Americans. I personally have a hard time having the government tell me what I can and can not do. The folks greatly against it under any circumstance almost always say have the baby and put it up for adoption. That is a great idea im all for it, but I have walked down that road. My wife and I were foster parents basically took in the worst of the worst we did not care what race or ethnicity or the child. But until you take care of a crack or heroin baby and then have the government take that baby away because you are white and the baby is latino or black. We tried to adopt several kids, but cause we would restrict their “cultural” values we where told no way. So a lot of these kids roam from place to place inside the system. Again I am personally against the idea, but who I am to tell someone not to do it or have the government not too. :noidea:

Preacher
02-18-2009, 06:16 PM
Sadly the genie has been let out of the bottle and not matter how much we want it backing it will never go back in. I am not for it all, but to boldly state under no circumstances is wrong also. This subject is the great divider among most Americans. I personally have a hard time having the government tell me what I can and can not do. The folks greatly against it under any circumstance almost always say have the baby and put it up for adoption. That is a great idea im all for it, but I have walked down that road. My wife and I were foster parents basically took in the worst of the worst we did not care what race or ethnicity or the child. But until you take care of a crack or heroin baby and then have the government take that baby away because you are white and the baby is latino or black. We tried to adopt several kids, but cause we would restrict their “cultural” values we where told no way. So a lot of these kids roam from place to place inside the system. Again I am personally against the idea, but who I am to tell someone not to do it or have the government not too. :noidea:

Of course the other side is, if you see life beginning at conception, doesn't the govt. have the responsibility to protect life? Otherwise, they couldn't legislate against murder either.

That is why the argument is so big... because depending on where you stand at the beginning, the govt. has an absolute responsibility to act, either to ban, or to allow abortion.

On the adoption issue, I am not sure when you tried to adopt, but the racial issue in adoption has pretty much gone by the waistside.

Stlrs4Life
02-18-2009, 06:58 PM
I'm against abortion unless the womens life is in danger. And for rape or insest.

7SteelGal43
02-18-2009, 07:14 PM
Except when the woman's life is seriously endangered by the pregnancy.

Thing is, I personally believe there are TWO lives at stake. In my mind, you can't say either the mother or the unborn baby is more worth saving. The doctors should (and I'm sure they do) do everything to save BOTH lives. Otherwise, you have a real life game of "lifeboat" going on.

7SteelGal43
02-18-2009, 07:21 PM
[QUOTE=Stlrs4Life;567011]I'm against abortion unless the womens life is in danger. And for rape or insest.[/QUOTE

Less than one tenth of one percent of abortions are pregnencies due to rape or incest. Aborting the baby in the case of rape or incest is only creating another victim. Perhaps the woman could adopt the baby out if she can't handle raising the child, but believe me, NO WAY will aborting the baby lessen the trauma of being raped or being the victim of incest. I think it all comes down to ONE simple question. When does life begin ? Personally I feel it begins at conception. And if that is the case, ANY abortion is equal to ending a life. People talk about rape, incest, life of the mother endangered.....those instances are so extremely rare. Abortion is nothing more than another form of birth control. As for "women are gonna get 'em even if they are illegal". Fine, at least she doesn't have the govts approval to murder a baby.

Polamalu Princess
02-18-2009, 07:51 PM
http://www.kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=333726


Interesting. Also interesting how they went about it. Seems to me, for the Supreme Court to overturn this, they will also have to overturn laws that allow the courts to process murder cases against men who kill women who are pregnant. . . charging double murder.

An example is the double murder charge that Scott Peterson faced. Here, the NOW picked up on the same issue.

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/04/24/fetal_harm/index.html


Interesting, to say the least.AMEN!!!!!!!! I am 100% pro-life.

Polamalu Princess
02-18-2009, 07:53 PM
Except when the woman's life is seriously endangered by the pregnancy.

I had a VERY difficult and life threatning pregnancy and I would have gladly given my life to save our baby. I just thank God that both of us made it through, albeit very hard on both of us.

Polamalu Princess
02-18-2009, 07:56 PM
One thing that I have to say is that if a woman is murdered while she is pregnant, it is a double murder...

7SteelGal43
02-18-2009, 08:15 PM
One thing that I have to say is that if a woman is murdered while she is pregnant, it is a double murder...

not if abortion is legal....no way no how no chance. can't have it both ways.

7SteelGal43
02-18-2009, 08:17 PM
I had a VERY difficult and life threatning pregnancy and I would have gladly given my life to save our baby. I just thank God that both of us made it through, albeit very hard on both of us.

YAYYYYY !!!! :hug:

revefsreleets
02-19-2009, 09:08 AM
This is as it should be. Individual states decide whether abortion is legal or not, and, if you are THAT radical about it one way or another, move to a state that sides with you.

vasteeler
02-19-2009, 10:50 AM
I dont have a problem with abortions unless it is being used as birth control.
A friend of mine has a child that will not live to be five years old, if they could see this on the ultra sound and decide to abort that would have saved a whole lot of heart ache.

Dino 6 Rings
02-19-2009, 11:34 AM
Well at least this opens up the debate again instead of just pushing abortion as the only way to get out of an unwanted pregnancy. Adoption is a solid answer. So is prevention with protection, abstinence or at least trying to teach our kids good moral values instead of telling them, "heck if you get knocked up, just go get it aborted"

I think a Dialog on the subject is healthy, regardless of stance. The Partial Birth stuff needs banned. Flat out. But there is debate for both sides in the 1st tri-mester as far as I'm concerned.

I had a feeling that "kill a pregnant woman and you are changed twice" law was going to be used as a way to say "see, if you're killing a person under this law, how are you not with abortion" It was only a matter of time.

kittenfantastico76
02-19-2009, 12:07 PM
I dont have a problem with abortions unless it is being used as birth control.


I was just going to keep out of this thread... but I read your response and must say I agree. Just like everything else in this country... people abuse things for wrong reasons and ruin it for others that truly may need this. I do not thing women should use this as a form of birth control and if they do they need their head examined!

However in cases such as rape, and the other conditions stated, I think a safe option should be presented for women, and young girls in these positions.

I'm PRO-CHOICE, always have been always will be but when it boils down to it, I would choose LIFE. But that's me choosing for myself, I can't speak for others.

It's easy to say what you would and wouldn't do until you're in that women's shoes and the choice is hers. HOWEVER, I do think that some guidelines and laws need to be made - My heartaches hearing about things such as partial birth abortions etc...

Bottom line... there would be less issues with people turning to abortion if there was more education for youth, eventually the youth grow into adults and somewhere along that path, they should be educated on safe sex, what goes along with the adult act of sex etc, and the concerns of unprotected sex etc. Education is key. As much as I respect those who wait until they are married to have relations, I really just can't think of that as a realistic way to expect everyone to act. I plan to educate my children when I have them, because as a parent you can preach all day long but in the end the child will do what they are going to do...

My mom educated me, and I think I turned out alright. :thumbsup:

Lastly, I respect everyone's opinions even if I don't agree with you. I know you all have your own personal beliefs and I get that. I may not agree, but I will respect that.

HometownGal
02-19-2009, 01:38 PM
Very nice post kittenfantastico. :drink: Though I am fiercely pro-life, your thoughts were presented quite well.

As much as I respect those who wait until they are married to have relations, I really just can't think of that as a realistic way to expect everyone to act. I plan to educate my children when I have them, because as a parent you can preach all day long but in the end the child will do what they are going to do...


In this day and age, premarital sex is as common as the day is long. You are correct that as a parent, you can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink. Peer pressure today is at an all time high and kids will do what they feel makes them "accepted" among those peers, sadly.

With all of the birth control available out there today, there is absolutely NO excuse for an "unwanted pregnancy" imho. When two people have unprotected sex and conceive a child, I do not feel the child should suffer for their irresponsible act. As an adopted child, though abortion was illegal and basically unheared of when I was born, I thank God every day that my biological father (my biological mother was killed in an auto accident when I was just an infant) wanted me to have a better life than he felt he could have provided and therefore put me up for adoption. It was the greatest gift they could have given me as I was adopted and raised by two of the most beautiful people God created.

I'm with you here - I may not agree with everyone's opinion on this very volatile subject, but I do respect their thoughts. :drink:

7SteelGal43
02-19-2009, 01:51 PM
I dont have a problem with abortions unless it is being used as birth control.
A friend of mine has a child that will not live to be five years old, if they could see this on the ultra sound and decide to abort that would have saved a whole lot of heart ache.

99% of abortions are exactly that...birth control. And if the child doesn't live past 5,6 years of age, be thankful to God for that 5,6 years.

HometownGal
02-19-2009, 01:55 PM
99% of abortions are exactly that...birth control. And if the child doesn't live past 5,6 years of age, be thankful to God for that 5,6 years.

:applaudit::hatsoff::thumbsup::drink:

AMEN.

Unfortunately, some couples are never afforded the privilege of having a child because of medical issues, etc. and I'm sure would be overjoyed to be given that very special gift even if for a few years. There is no greater feeling in this world than to be given and feel the love of a child.

Polamalu Princess
02-19-2009, 02:45 PM
99% of abortions are exactly that...birth control. And if the child doesn't live past 5,6 years of age, be thankful to God for that 5,6 years.

Thank God for even a moment in time.:thumbsup:

SteelCurtain7
02-19-2009, 04:35 PM
99% of abortions are exactly that...birth control. And if the child doesn't live past 5,6 years of age, be thankful to God for that 5,6 years.

:applaudit:

TheWarDen86
02-19-2009, 04:58 PM
This is as it should be. Individual states decide whether abortion is legal or not, and, if you are THAT radical about it one way or another, move to a state that sides with you.

:drink:

Preacher
02-19-2009, 06:31 PM
This is as it should be. Individual states decide whether abortion is legal or not, and, if you are THAT radical about it one way or another, move to a state that sides with you.


Gotta disagree with you.

For me, it falls under the same issues as slavery and separate but equal. If life begins at conception, then the FEDERAL GOVT, has the responsibility to make sure the rights of that child are not taken away without due process. THat means if state is taking away the rights by allowing abortion, it is in violation of the constitution of the US.

If life begins at birth (or someplace after conception), then the rights of the mother are being taken away without due process since Stare Decisis has established a right of privacy in which abortion is absorbed.

Punting it to the states is the fed. govt. failing in its role as protector of freedom, either for the child or for the mother.

SteelCurtain7
02-19-2009, 06:38 PM
Agreed, Preacher-man. In the list of things described in the Declaration of Independence, the first among these is "Life," then "Liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness." The abortion-pimping crowd has supplanted "Life" with "POH," priority-wise. :rolleyes:

TheWarDen86
02-19-2009, 06:49 PM
Agreed, Preacher-man. In the list of things described in the Declaration of Independence, the first among these is "Life," then "Liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness." The abortion-pimping crowd has supplanted "Life" with "POH," priority-wise. :rolleyes:

FYI - The Declaration of Independance is not a legal document.

I don't think ANY Gov't should have the authority to tell a rape victim that she HAS TO finish a pregnancy. On the otherhand I don't think abortion should be treated as birth control either. It's not as black and white as either side claims it is.

And Preach, if a state can decide on its own whether capital punishment can be implemented, then it should be able to decide its abortion laws or non-laws. And for the record, the Federal Gov't condones execution.

Preacher
02-19-2009, 07:19 PM
FYI - The Declaration of Independance is not a legal document.

I don't think ANY Gov't should have the authority to tell a rape victim that she HAS TO finish a pregnancy. On the otherhand I don't think abortion should be treated as birth control either. It's not as black and white as either side claims it is.

And Preach, if a state can decide on its own whether capital punishment can be implemented, then it should be able to decide its abortion laws or non-laws. And for the record, the Federal Gov't condones execution.

Execution comes after due process of the law where the person is found to have violated said law. An offspring does not.

Moreover, the main issue is whether life itself can be terminated without due process without repercussion. The states have already stated that the answer is no. Only by due process may it be terminated through execution.

BTW, rape is about half a percent of all abortions, so the argument really is not viable.

SteelCityMom
02-19-2009, 07:32 PM
Execution comes after due process of the law where the person is found to have violated said law. An offspring does not.

Moreover, the main issue is whether life itself can be terminated without due process without repercussion. The states have already stated that the answer is no. Only by due process may it be terminated through execution.

BTW, rape is about half a percent of all abortions, so the argument really is not viable.

Well the death penalty is a state by state issue as well, some states have it, some states don't. So I agree with Revefs when he says if a state chooses to ban abortion and others don't, so be it. That is up to the elected officials of the state and how they vote on the issue, not as how a percentage of the elected officials of the country as a whole feel.

TheWarDen86
02-19-2009, 07:48 PM
Execution comes after due process of the law where the person is found to have violated said law. An offspring does not.

Moreover, the main issue is whether life itself can be terminated without due process without repercussion. The states have already stated that the answer is no. Only by due process may it be terminated through execution.

All true, but it too is a widely debated topic along these same lines.

BTW, rape is about half a percent of all abortions, so the argument really is not viable.

I have a hard time digesting that.

I'm not going to debate Pro-life vs. pro-choice with you. I believe in a bit of both. I agree that Mothers-to-be should always have the child and give him/her up for adoption if she can't care for a child. However and again, in my eyes it is not black and white. And I wouldn't side with anyone who wanted to force their will on somebody else in that regard. Contrary to what some believe, there are those arguements that the federal government should stay out of.

Admittedly, I am torn when it comes to a pregnant woman being murdered. I agree too that should the fetus not survive it is a double homocide. These cases too are probably in the low percentile though.

I guess it depends on the circumstances.

Preacher
02-19-2009, 08:14 PM
Well the death penalty is a state by state issue as well, some states have it, some states don't. So I agree with Revefs when he says if a state chooses to ban abortion and others don't, so be it. That is up to the elected officials of the state and how they vote on the issue, not as how a percentage of the elected officials of the country as a whole feel.


Yes the death penalty is a state by state issue, but due process is MANDATED by the fed. govt. because of the rights of the individual.

It is my argument that abortion kills a living being and thus, falls under the mandate of due process. In other words, unless the offspring is charged and convicted of a crime while in the womb, the offspring cannot be executed.

TheWarDen86
02-19-2009, 08:18 PM
Yes the death penalty is a state by state issue, but due process is MANDATED by the fed. govt. because of the rights of the individual.

It is my argument that abortion kills a living being and thus, falls under the mandate of due process. In other words, unless the offspring is charged and convicted of a crime while in the womb, the offspring cannot be executed.

Although I believe there is some truth to that, I don't think it's that cut and dry.

SteelCityMom
02-19-2009, 08:50 PM
Yes the death penalty is a state by state issue, but due process is MANDATED by the fed. govt. because of the rights of the individual.

It is my argument that abortion kills a living being and thus, falls under the mandate of due process. In other words, unless the offspring is charged and convicted of a crime while in the womb, the offspring cannot be executed.

Agreed, due process is mandated by federal law, and falls under a basic law in the constitution, but it is ultimately left up to the states to decide as to whether or not they consider the death penalty itself constitutional or not (whether it falls under cruel and unusual punishment or not). The same should be for abortion as well in my opinion. It is ultimately legal under federal law, but I feel it should be up to the states to set their own state laws on the issue (and I'm pro-choice).

I fully understand where you are coming from on this issue though, and you make a great argument that I don't totally disagree with. Abortion is an issue with me that I have flipped flopped over for a long time now and ultimately felt that if I could not make a clear decision on it myself that I didn't want the federal government making the decision for millions of women, if that makes any sense at all.

TheWarDen86
02-19-2009, 09:02 PM
Agreed, due process is mandated by federal law, and falls under a basic law in the constitution, but it is ultimately left up to the states to decide as to whether or not they consider the death penalty itself constitutional or not (whether it falls under cruel and unusual punishment or not). The same should be for abortion as well in my opinion. It is ultimately legal under federal law, but I feel it should be up to the states to set their own state laws on the issue (and I'm pro-choice).

I fully understand where you are coming from on this issue though, and you make a great argument that I don't totally disagree with. Abortion is an issue with me that I have flipped flopped over for a long time now and ultimately felt that if I could not make a clear decision on it myself that I didn't want the federal government making the decision for millions of women, if that makes any sense at all.

That makes perfect sense and that's pretty much the boat I am in.

Polamalu Princess
02-19-2009, 09:14 PM
Abortion is an end to a life. There is no argument about the fact that it is an end to a life - period. Murder is defined by an end to a life – period.

TheWarDen86
02-19-2009, 09:20 PM
Abortion is an end to a life. There is no argument about the fact that it is an end to a life - period. Murder is defined by an end to a life – period.

Actually, that is the very arguement that has the entire country split. Again, I agree that there is some truth, but it's not cut and dry for either side.

SteelCityMom
02-19-2009, 09:28 PM
Abortion is an end to a life. There is no argument about the fact that it is an end to a life - period. Murder is defined by an end to a life – period.

Well, it's not that clear and simple though, an end to a life would actually be the definition of death. Murder is the unlawful killing of a person with malice intent. If abortion were illegal in this way of thinking, then the death penalty and war would have to be banned throughout, since both ultimately lead to an end of lives.

I respect your stance on the argument, and understand it. I like hearing thoughts on the subject other than my own, life would be boring if I only had to live with my own opinions. If nothing else it's helped me look into the debate more to formulate a clearer opinion for myself.

TheWarDen86
02-19-2009, 09:49 PM
Yeah, prolife all the way. I dont think theres ever a good reason to kill anybody.

Sometimes I wonder about that too...., but that's an entirely different subject all together.

Polamalu Princess
02-19-2009, 09:54 PM
How about this:

I was told that I might die
I was told that our baby only had 3 chambers in her heart and that she would die
I was told that with all my medical problems that I should abort because she would be retarded
I was told that I should abort because I was crazy for wanting a baby with my medical problems
I was told that I could not have a chance in hell to have a child after having cancer RIGHT before I got married
I was told at age 16 that women with my medical problems would be sterile

HOWEVER – God told me at age 16 that He would give me 1 and He did. Against all odds and against all recommendations God prevailed because He had a plan for our daughter.

There is no pregnancy that is a mistake – EVER – our daughter is the proof!

Do not come back with a response about rape because I know a healthy 19 year old that knows she was the product of rape and her mother kept her and raised her. She is fine and loves life and is so thankful that her mother let her live anyway.

Do not come back with a response of incest, as I have had the wonderful pleasure to be acquainted with a man that was born with those means and he is perfect.

Do not come back with a response that a child would be retarded – those wonderful people are the happiest people I have ever met – go to a school or home for the retarded and give them 1 single minute of your time and you will see the innocence and the smiles that makes you know they have joy that we cannot even comprehend.

No child is a mistake from the point of conception – no matter what the outcome will be…If you were aborted, you would not be here to give your opinion on this subject. Think about that. My husband was adopted…our daughter would not be here if his birth mother would have made a decision to abort him. Do you know who he is?

TheWarDen86
02-19-2009, 10:00 PM
My only response is that I don't share your feelings (about life, death abortion or god). We'll have to agree to disagree, that's all. I do know who your husband is and I consider you both friends. I could never be anything but happy for you and your daughter.

Polamalu Princess
02-19-2009, 10:08 PM
My only response is that I don't share your feelings (about life, death abortion or god). We'll have to agree to disagree, that's all. I do know who your husband is and I consider you both friends. I could never be anything but happy for you and your daughter.

We can agree to disagree - :drink: I am okay with that 100% I respect you, even if we do not see things the same way.

SteelCityMom
02-19-2009, 10:27 PM
How about this:

I was told that I might die
I was told that our baby only had 3 chambers in her heart and that she would die
I was told that with all my medical problems that I should abort because she would be retarded
I was told that I should abort because I was crazy for wanting a baby with my medical problems
I was told that I could not have a chance in hell to have a child after having cancer RIGHT before I got married
I was told at age 16 that women with my medical problems would be sterile

HOWEVER – God told me at age 16 that He would give me 1 and He did. Against all odds and against all recommendations God prevailed because He had a plan for our daughter.

There is no pregnancy that is a mistake – EVER – our daughter is the proof!

Do not come back with a response about rape because I know a healthy 19 year old that knows she was the product of rape and her mother kept her and raised her. She is fine and loves life and is so thankful that her mother let her live anyway.

Do not come back with a response of incest, as I have had the wonderful pleasure to be acquainted with a man that was born with those means and he is perfect.

Do not come back with a response that a child would be retarded – those wonderful people are the happiest people I have ever met – go to a school or home for the retarded and give them 1 single minute of your time and you will see the innocence and the smiles that makes you know they have joy that we cannot even comprehend.

No child is a mistake from the point of conception – no matter what the outcome will be…If you were aborted, you would not be here to give your opinion on this subject. Think about that. My husband was adopted…our daughter would not be here if his birth mother would have made a decision to abort him. Do you know who he is?

That's wonderful that you made those decisions, they couldn't have been easy at all, but I would not force those choices on anyone.

This is not something that is easy for me to talk about, let alone to complete strangers, but I feel it's something I need to get off of my chest.

My mother and I have had many long talks about abortion. She had one before she had me (late 70's). She was in an abusive marriage before she got divorced and met my father. They had one child together already (my half-brother) and she was relatively young and was scared as to what having another child with this man would mean. She chose to not have it. I would not be alive were it not for this.

Thankfully she was able to share this with me and it shaped my opinion of the kind of relationships never to get involved in, and it shaped my opinion of how I myself didn't ever want to have to deal with a decision of whether or not to have an abortion.

I know nothing I ever say would ever change your mind on the issue (and vice versa) and that is fine. Thank you for sharing your experience and again, I do not disagree with you completely on the issue as a whole, I just know I can't speak for all women and how they should handle such an issue.

Preacher
02-19-2009, 10:59 PM
Really is a shame the national debate on this issue couldn't be as civil as the discussion on this board.

tony hipchest
02-19-2009, 11:00 PM
polamalu princess & steelcitymom,

those are 2 great posts that perfectly sum up the complexity of the issue.

i am really 49-51% in the issue and most of the time not sure which way i lean.

actually i do. i dont wanna judge any woman in the situation and will leave that up to our maker.

TheWarDen86
02-19-2009, 11:01 PM
Really is a shame the national debate on this issue couldn't be as civil as the discussion on this board.

Most of us are friends in here. Out there the opposition of this sort tend to become mortal enemies. More than that, I wish the answers to some of these questions were clearer to us all.

Preacher
02-19-2009, 11:33 PM
polamalu princess & steelcitymom,

those are 2 great posts that perfectly sum up the complexity of the issue.

i am really 49-51% in the issue and most of the time not sure which way i lean.

actually i do. i dont wanna judge any woman in the situation and will leave that up to our maker.

And you bring a third issue into the debate... how to handle those who have had an abortion.

Sadly, the church has failed MISERABLY on that issue. It really is a shame, because the stand against abortion within true christianity has been around for 18 centuries. You would think we have come up with a better way to deal with it by now.

MasterOfPuppets
02-20-2009, 02:58 AM
And you bring a third issue into the debate... how to handle those who have had an abortion.

Sadly, the church has failed MISERABLY on that issue. It really is a shame, because the stand against abortion within true christianity has been around for 18 centuries. You would think we have come up with a better way to deal with it by now. preacher, would this apply to the discussion?

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"
(aka Dann's "Sermon on the beach"1)

It's a common dilemma: You've examined a certain moral or ethical question until you're certain the answer you've come up with is correct2, and you start living according to your findings. Sometime later, you discuss your conclusion with someone else. Perhaps they agree, perhaps they don't, but how far do you go in trying to convince them of your view?

From what I can tell, the issue boils down to discerning versus judging. In a more 'religious' sense, it would be evangelism (sharing faith) versus proselytization (forcing faith). In both senses, the former seems to be the better of the two options.

In the first sense (discernment versus judgement), scripture is clear that discerning is the path to take, judging the path to avoid. When St. Paul says "Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good, abstain from every form of evil"3, he uses a word4 meaning 'to test' or 'to prove for oneself'. This sharply contrasts St. Matthew's warning: "Judge not lest ye be judged"5. Here, Matthew uses a word6, meaning 'to pick out', 'to separate', or 'to distinguish'. Both involve making a decision, but the former involves applying the conclusion to yourself, whereas the latter involves applying it to someone else.

The second sense (evangelism versus proselytization7) is where many 'evangelical' faith groups seem to take a wrong turn. Jesus says "Go ye therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"8, using a word9 meaning 'to instruct' or 'to make disciple of'. Many groups take this to mean "stand on a street corner and force your faith on people". These folks have good intentions, just like the pharisees, but their actions aren't in line with the example Christ sets. When He was hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes10, he didn't spend his time chastising them for their sins, he instead lovingly taught them the truth, showed them compassion, and treated them like they were members of his own family.11

In the end, both judging and proselytizing are futile and destructive. Not only can you not change someone's mind for them, God didn't intend for you to be able to. He gave all people the ability to think and reason, to one degree or another. To expect someone always to agree with you in a discussion is not only prideful, but a very selfish view of free will.12

SteelCityMom
02-20-2009, 07:35 AM
Really is a shame the national debate on this issue couldn't be as civil as the discussion on this board.

Yes, it is a shame. I was nervous about even posting on this topic at first, because I've seen how ugly such discussions can become. It's been very refreshing to be able to talk with someone who's opinion is different without it resorting to anger. You're always going to learn more through constructive debate than you will from a shouting match.

revefsreleets
02-20-2009, 08:32 AM
One thing is for sure: When the abortion threads start, it is UNDENIABLY the offseason...

Leftoverhard
02-20-2009, 09:49 AM
Someone once pointed out to me that if men were the ones who got pregnant and had to decide on these matters - this wouldn't even be an issue. And if it were turned around like that - how would men respond to women telling us what to do with our bodies?
Just an interesting way of looking at this. It really made me think more.

stlrtruck
02-20-2009, 10:29 AM
Someone once pointed out to me that if men were the ones who got pregnant and had to decide on these matters - this wouldn't even be an issue. And if it were turned around like that - how would men respond to women telling us what to do with our bodies?
Just an interesting way of looking at this. It really made me think more.

And if the Steelers wouldn't have played prevent with 10 minutes to go, the cardinals probably only score 1 TD in the 4th qtr.

I'm a guy and God made it so I don't give birth. As for my body, heck my wife tells me what to do with it now so it wouldn't be any different IF I did give birth. :flap:

kittenfantastico76
02-20-2009, 11:48 AM
Very nice post kittenfantastico. :drink: Though I am fiercely pro-life, your thoughts were presented quite well.



In this day and age, premarital sex is as common as the day is long. You are correct that as a parent, you can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink. Peer pressure today is at an all time high and kids will do what they feel makes them "accepted" among those peers, sadly.

With all of the birth control available out there today, there is absolutely NO excuse for an "unwanted pregnancy" imho. When two people have unprotected sex and conceive a child, I do not feel the child should suffer for their irresponsible act. As an adopted child, though abortion was illegal and basically unheared of when I was born, I thank God every day that my biological father (my biological mother was killed in an auto accident when I was just an infant) wanted me to have a better life than he felt he could have provided and therefore put me up for adoption. It was the greatest gift they could have given me as I was adopted and raised by two of the most beautiful people God created.

I'm with you here - I may not agree with everyone's opinion on this very volatile subject, but I do respect their thoughts. :drink:

Thank you. I do wish that education for sex ed was better, I really do. I do feel it's the parents place to teach their children but we all know how that song and dance can go. I just don't think that telling a child/teenager DON'T is going to work... Kids today are growing up WAY too fast... I keep watching the role models of my 8 and 9 year old nieces and I'm floored... I always feel like Sure that star is innocent now but ... what about 2 weeks from now... It seems like little Miss Cyrus has grown up way too fast and went from innocent to hoochie in 2.5 seconds.... boys are noticing girls at younger ages... girls are doing the same with boys (I'm glad I was fearful of boys and kissing until I hit 10th grade... LOL)...

You bring up a great point as well... ADOPTION! As I stated I'm pro-choice, but in the end I would probably choose LIFE in my own personal life... however if I knew I couldn't provide for that child, I would definitely look into making sure someone else could through Adoption, I think it's a wonderful thing ... especially for so many men and women that are trying so hard to have kids and can't themselves.


Lastly I'm happy to see too the amount of respect on this thread, for all opinions.

kittenfantastico76
02-20-2009, 11:57 AM
How about this:

I was told that I might die
I was told that our baby only had 3 chambers in her heart and that she would die
I was told that with all my medical problems that I should abort because she would be retarded
I was told that I should abort because I was crazy for wanting a baby with my medical problems
I was told that I could not have a chance in hell to have a child after having cancer RIGHT before I got married
I was told at age 16 that women with my medical problems would be sterile

HOWEVER – God told me at age 16 that He would give me 1 and He did. Against all odds and against all recommendations God prevailed because He had a plan for our daughter.

There is no pregnancy that is a mistake – EVER – our daughter is the proof!

Do not come back with a response about rape because I know a healthy 19 year old that knows she was the product of rape and her mother kept her and raised her. She is fine and loves life and is so thankful that her mother let her live anyway.

Do not come back with a response of incest, as I have had the wonderful pleasure to be acquainted with a man that was born with those means and he is perfect.

Do not come back with a response that a child would be retarded – those wonderful people are the happiest people I have ever met – go to a school or home for the retarded and give them 1 single minute of your time and you will see the innocence and the smiles that makes you know they have joy that we cannot even comprehend.

No child is a mistake from the point of conception – no matter what the outcome will be…If you were aborted, you would not be here to give your opinion on this subject. Think about that. My husband was adopted…our daughter would not be here if his birth mother would have made a decision to abort him. Do you know who he is?

I don't know why this made me think of what i did... but it did... John and Kate Plus 8 (I love that show)... They had told Kate when she was carrying her 2nd group of kids... that she would need to choose 2 of the babies to abort, for safety reasons (hers and the children she was carrying)... I thought to myself HOW ON EARTH would you do that... especially when beyond a doubt they wanted these children... she refused like you said against all odds she was having all her babies... and she did... It takes a ton of courage to go against the odds when doctors are telling you such negative possibilities, and I think it's amazing that you did and have. :hug:

kittenfantastico76
02-20-2009, 11:59 AM
I'm a guy and God made it so I don't give birth. As for my body, heck my wife tells me what to do with it now so it wouldn't be any different IF I did give birth. :flap:

bwahahahah :wink02:

JEFF4i
02-20-2009, 06:21 PM
Y'know, socially especially, I'm rampantly liberal...

But as an expecting father, I gotta think this is a good thing. Its amazing how seeing in an ultrasound a little baby just kick his way around and move changes EVERYTHING.

Polamalu Princess
02-20-2009, 06:27 PM
:drink:Y'know, socially especially, I'm rampantly liberal...

But as an expecting father, I gotta think this is a good thing. Its amazing how seeing in an ultrasound a little baby just kick his way around and move changes EVERYTHING.

HometownGal
02-20-2009, 06:31 PM
I'm a guy and God made it so I don't give birth. As for my body, heck my wife tells me what to do with it now so it wouldn't be any different IF I did give birth. :flap:

That's because God knew that Adam was a big wuss so he made y'all in his image and likeness! :chuckle::wink02:

Most men are big babies when they have the slightest sniffle and could never handle giving birth. Best way to describe it is trying to put a bowling ball through the eye of a needle. :horror:

xfl2001fan
02-20-2009, 08:35 PM
That's because God knew that Adam was a big wuss so he made y'all in his image and likeness! :chuckle::wink02:

Most men are big babies when they have the slightest sniffle and could never handle giving birth. Best way to describe it is trying to put a bowling ball through the eye of a needle. :horror:

Passing kidney stones has gotta count for something. The sound of something "clink" against that porcelin is a sound I shudder thinking about. Of course, that didn't stop me from peeing. :flap:

I wish I could get pregnant. Then I'd have a baby...and then another, just to spite all those women who use that line! (But first, I'd market the crap out of the first pregnancy!!!) :flap:

Preacher
02-22-2009, 02:29 PM
Well XFL..

You brought this discussion to a grinding halt! :rofl: