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View Full Version : Drug violence spins Mexico toward 'civil war'


SteelersMongol
02-18-2009, 11:38 PM
(CNN) -- A shootout in a border city that leaves five alleged drug traffickers sprawled dead on the street and seven police wounded. A police chief and his bodyguards gunned down outside his house in another border city. Four bridges into the United States shut down by protesters who want the military out of their towns and who officials say are backed by narcotraffickers.

That was Mexico on Tuesday.

What is most remarkable is that it was not much different from Monday or Sunday or any day in the past few years.

Mexico, a country with a nearly 2,000-mile border with the United States, is undergoing a horrifying wave of violence that some are likening to a civil war. Drug traffickers battle fiercely with each other and Mexican authorities. The homicide rate reached a record level in 2008 and indications are that the carnage could be exceeded this year.

Every day, newspapers and the airwaves are filled with stories and images of beheadings and other gruesome killings. Wednesday's front page on Mexico City's La Prensa carried a large banner headline that simply said "Hysteria!" The entire page was devoted to photos of bloody bodies and grim-faced soldiers. One photo shows a man with two young children walking across a street with an army vehicle in the background, with a soldier standing at a turret machine gun.

Larry Birns, director of the Washington-based Council on Hemispheric Affairs, calls it "a sickening vertigo into chaos and plunder."

By most accounts, that's not hyperbole.

"The grisly portrait of the violence is unprecedented and horrific," said Robert Pastor, a Latin America national security adviser for President Jimmy Carter in the late 1970s.

"I don't think there's any question that Mexico is going through a very rough time. Not only is there violence with the gangs, but the entire population is very scared," said Peter Hakim, president of the Inter-American Dialogue, a Washington-based policy center.

Speaking on a news show a few weeks ago, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich called it a civil war. Birns agrees.

"Of course it's a civil war, but that only touches the violence of it," he said Wednesday. "It's also a civic conflict, as an increasing number of people look upon the law and democratic values as something that can be violated."

Hakim is not prepared to go that far.

"One has to be careful and not overdo it," he said. "Mexico is a long way from being a failed state. Mexico has real institutions. It paves roads and collects the garbage. It holds regular elections."

Enrique Bravo, an analyst with the Eurasia consulting group, points out that the violence so far is mostly affecting just drug gangs and is primarily localized along the U.S. border and Mexico's western coast.

The violence along the border is particularly worrisome, analysts say.

"The spillover into the United States is bound to expand and bound to affect U.S. institutions," Birns said.

Pastor and Hakim note that the United States helps fuel the violence, not only by providing a ready market for illegal drugs, but also by supplying the vast majority of weapons used by drug gangs.

Pastor says there are at least 6,600 U.S. gun shops within 100 miles of the Mexican border and more than 90 percent of weapons in Mexico come from the United States.

And it's not just handguns. Drug traffickers used a bazooka in Tuesday's shootout with federal police and army soldiers in Reynosa, Mexico, across the border from McAllen, Texas.

"The drug gangs are better equipped than the army," Hakim said.

Pervasive corruption among public officials is central to the drug cartels' success.

"There is so much money involved in the drug trade, there is so much fear involved in the drug trade, that no institution can survive unaffected," Birns said.

"This has really revealed just how corrupt Mexican officeholders are," Hakim said.

In one recent instance, Noe Ramirez Mandujano, who was the nation's top anti-drug official from 2006 until August 2008, was arrested on charges that he accepted $450,000 a month in bribes from drug traffickers while in office.

Such dire problems call for a new way of looking at the situation, some say.

Pastor calls the problem in Mexico "even worse than Chicago during the Prohibition era" and said a solution similar to what ended that violence is needed now.

"What worked in the U.S. was not Eliot Ness," he said, referring to the federal agent famous for fighting gangsters in 1920s and '30s. "It was the repeal of Prohibition."

That viewpoint has picked up some high-level support in Latin America.

Last week, the former presidents of Mexico, Colombia and Brazil called for the decriminalization of marijuana for personal use and a change in strategy on the war on drugs at a meeting in Brazil of the Latin American Commission on Drugs and Democracy.

"The problem is that current policies are based on prejudices and fears and not on results," former Colombian President Cesar Gaviria said at a news conference, in which the 17-member commission's recommendations were presented.

Mexican President Felipe Calderon has taken the war on drugs to the cartels and some say it's not working.

"It's as if the burden of being the main arena of the anti-drug war has overwhelmed Mexican institutions," Birns said. "The occasional anti-drug battle is being won, but the war is being lost. And there's no prospect the war is going to be won."

In the meantime, the killings will continue at a record pace.

On Wednesday, the Mexican cities of Correon and Gomez Palacio reported at least eight shootouts involving heavily armed men.

The toll: seven dead, seven wounded.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/02/18/mexico.drug.violence/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

What do you guys think needs 2 b done?

MasterOfPuppets
02-19-2009, 12:06 AM
In one recent instance, Noe Ramirez Mandujano, who was the nation's top anti-drug official from 2006 until August 2008, was arrested on charges that he accepted $450,000 a month in bribes from drug traffickers while in office.
this pretty much sums up mexico's problem. thier government is about as self serving and corrupt as it gets.the U.S. needs to find a way to saw thru the border and push mexico a couple hundred miles away...:thumbsup: ... either that or flood the border with land mines.:popcorn:

tony hipchest
02-19-2009, 12:43 AM
ive tracked this the past year as it seems juarez mexico (100 miles away from me) has become the murder capitol of the world.

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=25272&highlight=juarez

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=26750&highlight=juarez

just do a search on "juearez murder count" and see what pops up. tons of articles and it makes you wonder why this isnt a bigger story.

Ciudad Juárez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe body count in Mexico stands at 5400 slayings in 2008, more than double the 2477 reported in 2007, officials said, with over 1400 in Ciudad Juarez alone. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciudad_Juárez -

Juarez murders shine light on an emerging 'Military Cartel'

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2008/12/juarez-murders-shine-light-emerging-military-cartel

America’s drug war has made murder a growth industry in Juarez, a sprawling Mexican border town of some 1.2 million people located a stone’s throw from the Texas city of El Paso.

The growth of this industry is measured in corpses and coffins. Some say the number of murders in Juarez so far this yea r exceeds 1,400, but no one really knows for sure, because not all the corpses have been found, so they can’t all be counted.

In recent weeks, the U.S. media has added a new subplot to its time-tested narrative explaining the bloodshed sparked by the narco-trafficking business — an enterprise valued at as much $500 billion globally, according to the United Nations, with up to a quarter of that business flowing through Mexico to feed the U.S. drug habit.

Again, no one really knows the true size of this enterprise, because it is hidden in the shadows, but few could argue against the reality that the flow of money from illegal drug sales is helping to prop up the economy of Mexico — and the bank accounts of both legitimate and illegitimate businesses on both sides of the border, since that money spends like all other money.

The baseline of the media narrative explaining the carnage in Juarez goes something like this: The death count in Juarez is the result of a bloody turf war being waged to control the critical narco-exporting port of Juarez. This street battle has sparked a shootout between rival drug “cartels” — headed by quasi-mythical figures like Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman Loera and Vicente Carrillo Fuentes — who are now in retreat due to the Mexican President Felipe Calderon’s decision to use the military to defeat them and return law and order to Juarez and Mexico in general.

This narrative is so convincing that the United States is prepared to commit some $1.5 billion over the next few years, under its Merida Initiative (also dubbed Plan Mexico), to provide training and equipment (including sophisticated surveillance technology and aircraft) to Mexico’s law enforcers and its military to assist Calderon in his battle against these criminal cartels.

The latest twist in this plot reveals that these ruthless drug cartels are now ratcheting up the violence due to the flow across the border of thousands of weapons — high-powered rifles, machine guns, cop-killer ammo, even grenades — from the U.S., all enabled by lax U.S. gun laws and enterprising criminals on both sides of the border.:jawdrop:

But is it really that simple? Well, the devil is always in the details, it seems.


click link for rest.

(wow, listening to all the gun huggers i totally forgot that we could buy guns and ammo here in america.)

to answer your question SM i think the immediate legalization of marijuana is a good start. hate to see cocaine and herion legal, but its gonna get here and be used anyways. we might as well profit and tax the hell out of that just like we do alcohol and tobacco.

MACH1
02-19-2009, 01:01 AM
(wow, listening to all the gun huggers i totally forgot that we could buy guns and ammo here in america.)

to answer your question SM i think the immediate legalization of marijuana is a good start. hate to see cocaine and herion legal, but its gonna get here and be used anyways. we might as well profit and tax the hell out of that just like we do alcohol and tobacco.

Yup...I think I'll go pick up few grenades tomorrow while I'm getting ammo for my M-16 at the local sport shop, might even pick up a couple claymores while I'm there. :rolleyes:

I agree with legalizing pot and tax the chit out of it. Might pay some of that new bill off.

tony hipchest
02-19-2009, 01:06 AM
Yup...I think I'll go pick up few grenades tomorrow while I'm getting ammo for my M-16 at the local sport shop, might even pick up a couple claymores while I'm there. :rolleyes:
what ? you cant get that in ID? you should move to NM. of course they dont just have it on display... you gotta get into the "back room". :wink02:

Might pay some of that new bill off

:yep: agriculture has always been good to america-

tobacco
cotton
food
etc.....

MACH1
02-19-2009, 01:17 AM
what ? you cant get that in ID? you should move to NM. of course they dont just have it on display... you gotta get into the "back room". :wink02:


Nope...But I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy. I think his name is Pablo. :chuckle:

SteelCurtain7
02-19-2009, 07:31 AM
I heard about this stuff on Glenn Beck's show the other day. Man... :(

KeiselPower99
02-19-2009, 09:35 AM
I say drop a nuke on the Mexican capital.

devilsdancefloor
02-19-2009, 09:40 AM
I say drop a nuke on the Mexican capital.

man everyone is so nuke happy! NO NO NO air fuel bombs! :thumbsup::thumbsup::wink02:

MasterOfPuppets
02-19-2009, 09:48 AM
man everyone is so nuke happy! NO NO NO air fuel bombs! :thumbsup::thumbsup::wink02:naw.....a couple dozen of these puppies would do a nice job....
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/139739/moab_bomb_test_video/

revefsreleets
02-19-2009, 10:19 AM
Yup, the solution is incredibly simple. End this STUPID drug war NOW! Legalize it and tax it.

MasterOfPuppets
02-19-2009, 10:27 AM
Yup, the solution is incredibly simple. End this STUPID drug war NOW! Legalize it and tax it.then all the drug dealers will milk the system for welfare.....:noidea:

revefsreleets
02-19-2009, 10:33 AM
90% of drug dealers make less than they would working at McD's. Read Freakonomics.

MasterOfPuppets
02-19-2009, 10:47 AM
90% of drug dealers make less than they would working at McD's. Read Freakonomics.thats because 90 % of them are in it for the drugs themselves....not the money....the key to being a successful drug dealer, is to not do the drug your dealing.

MACH1
02-19-2009, 10:49 AM
thats because 90 % of them are in it for the drugs themselves....not the money....the key to being a successful drug dealer, is to not do the drug your dealing.

That and mickyD's a drug free work place. :rolleyes:

revefsreleets
02-19-2009, 10:53 AM
Actually, it's because the drug trade runs just like Amway does. A very few at the very top make big money, and the rest spend their time hustling for peanuts.

Godfather
02-19-2009, 11:29 AM
hate to see cocaine and herion legal, but its gonna get here and be used anyways. .

Instead of legalizing cocaine and heroin, we could legalize coca and opium. If those are available there would be about as much demand for powder coke/crack and heroin as there is for rotgut moonshine.

Dino 6 Rings
02-19-2009, 12:27 PM
Yup, the solution is incredibly simple. End this STUPID drug war NOW! Legalize it and tax it.

Sorry Revs, but I have to disagree with this statement.

Legalizing MaryJane, maybe, or at least, decriminilize posession of small amounts.

However, the following are way worse than weed and should never be legal:

LSD
PCP
Crystal Meth
Special K
Herion
Cocaine

I'm sure I missed a bunch, but I do not think any of those above drugs should EVER be Legal in any form for any person. They are not like weed, they do cause great amounts of addiction, and do create violent thinking, and the need to do whatever it takes to get the next fix. Which leads to crime, robbery, murder and so on.

Weed, not so much, but the rest, no way and I'd fight against those tooth and nail.

Dino 6 Rings
02-19-2009, 12:29 PM
As for the Mexican government on the brink of collapsing and the entire nation plunging into civil war.

Step One. We put our Troops on the border to stop all Crossing right now. Step two, we set up potential refuge camps for those civilians that need to get away from the violence, on THEIR side of the border. Our troops would basically, Occupy a space on their side of the Wall (which we need to build) and we would protect the innocent form these maniacs. Basically, we declare a real war on these drug cartells and kill them all one by one, ten by ten, hundreds by the hudreds until all of them are wiped out.

But heck, I'm a nut job when it comes to that type of stuff.

SteelTalons
02-19-2009, 01:13 PM
90% of drug dealers make less than they would working at McD's. Read Freakonomics.

I dont buy that. 10 to 20% maybe. But about 80% have a fairly decent chunk of change they just cant spend it on things like homes or cars like you could if it were legal money. So it creates an illusion of being poor which they often go for to avoid the police.

revefsreleets
02-19-2009, 01:39 PM
I dont buy that. 10 to 20% maybe. But about 80% have a fairly decent chunk of change they just cant spend it on things like homes or cars like you could if it were legal money. So it creates an illusion of being poor which they often go for to avoid the police.

Don't believe me, read it yourself. Freakonomics.

As for legalizing drugs, we should simply look at other countries that DO have legalized drugs and emulate them.

The fact is, the US "War on Drugs" has been a monstrous failure since it's inception, and has probbaly cost more than the Iraq War, the new "stimulus bill", and the Wall Street bailout combined...

SteelCityMom
02-19-2009, 01:51 PM
Sorry Revs, but I have to disagree with this statement.

Legalizing MaryJane, maybe, or at least, decriminilize posession of small amounts.

However, the following are way worse than weed and should never be legal:

LSD
PCP
Crystal Meth
Special K
Herion
Cocaine

I'm sure I missed a bunch, but I do not think any of those above drugs should EVER be Legal in any form for any person. They are not like weed, they do cause great amounts of addiction, and do create violent thinking, and the need to do whatever it takes to get the next fix. Which leads to crime, robbery, murder and so on.

Weed, not so much, but the rest, no way and I'd fight against those tooth and nail.

I agree that these are horrible drugs, and not many people would see an upside to them being legal, but they are really no different from alcohol or prescription drugs (Oxcontin, Percocets and other pain killers/sleep aids). They cause great amounts of addiction, create violent thinking, and people will do whatever it takes to get the next fix, yet alcohol and prescription drugs are legal and fairly easy to obtain.

Keeping these other drugs illegal breeds violence (gang wars, robbery, home invasions) as well. Not to mention the disease that is bred due to meth/heroin users sharing dirty needles. Were these drugs legal the gov't could regulate use and rid the streets of a good portion of gang violence. Take away their demand.

I agree that there is a huge drug problem in America, but why should we look to the gov't to fix that for us? Why are parents excused from responsibility because they are not teaching their children good morals, or are not spending enough time with them to know what goes on in their lives? You cannot rely on a government to place laws on morality, they are not your parents and they will not make you better people.

XxKnightxX
02-20-2009, 06:13 AM
This is Colombia all over again just like in the 80's and 90's, probably worse. I feel bad for the innocent civilians stuck in between this, I grew up my first couple of years of my life through the last days of Escobar and both my parents were victims of his bombings.

A funny thing about the Mexicans though is that they are targetting Police, Journalists, and even Recording artists of their music. According to my friend, One Cartel tells the group to sing a song called a 'corrida' basically telling a story or saying something bad about another cartel, thats why a lot of them end up capped since they start singing about things that no one should know about so they get silenced.