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El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 03:53 PM
Steelers franchise Starks
Thursday, February 19, 2009
By Gerry Dulac, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

INDIANAPOLIS -- The Steelers have placed the franchise tag on offensive tackle Max Starks, a move that will keep him from entering free agency and guarantee him $8.451 million in salary -- the average of the NFL's top five offensive linemen -- in the 2009 season.

The Steelers will try to work out a long-term deal with Starks, a No. 3 draft choice in 2004 who started 11 games last season at left tackle.

It is the second year in a row the Steelers have used a tag to keep Starks from becoming an unrestricted free agent. He was named a transition player last season, even though he wasn't a starter, and was paid $6.9 million.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09050/950325-100.stm

BlastFurnace
02-19-2009, 03:59 PM
Yeah!!!!!!

Great move. Now, work out that long term deal and move on to the next one.

I guess the coach(s) who didn't like him last year have had a change of heart.

Pitt$burgh$teeler$
02-19-2009, 04:05 PM
Good Move IMO!

Steely McSmash
02-19-2009, 04:07 PM
Yeah!!!!!!

Great move. Now, work out that long term deal and move on to the next one.

I guess the coach(s) who didn't like him last year have had a change of heart.


Not like they have a lot of options exactly. Taking a big cap hit this year is not so bad since it will leave much needed room next year with some big contracts coming up.

StainlessStill
02-19-2009, 04:11 PM
What the Steelers did last year spoke volumes on how they feel about Starks. Giving him a 1 year deal for 7 mil is pretty loud in their expectations. Starks is young, a community man, and had played very well the last 2 seasons when stepping in for Marvel at LT. The jobs his.

rbryan
02-19-2009, 04:13 PM
Can't say I saw that coming. I don't hink theres a very good chance of getting together on a long term deal if they couldn't work one out by now. One things for sure....he won't be franchised next year.

19ward86
02-19-2009, 04:14 PM
thats a lot of money, hopefully they can work a 5-6 yr deal.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 04:15 PM
Anybody got a guess at what his annual salary is gonna be??

My guess is he is gonna want an average of $6.5million a season, which I dont think he is worth.

Sharkissle29
02-19-2009, 04:24 PM
what exactly is a franchise tag? always wondered, been too lazy to look

drizze99
02-19-2009, 04:24 PM
This is down right STUPID. Starks is not worth that kind of money.... WTF

I thought our F.O. was smarter than this.....

GBMelBlount
02-19-2009, 04:25 PM
$8.4 Million!

Ouch.

drizze1999
This is down right STUPID. Starks is not worth that kind of money.... WTF

I thought our F.O. was smarter than this.....

It's simply due to poor planning and could have been avoided had they started better addressing the o-line issues a few years ago.

The_WARDen
02-19-2009, 04:33 PM
dumb dumb dumb. NO ONE on that Oline is worth $8 million.

:doh: :banging::banging::banging:

rbryan
02-19-2009, 04:33 PM
It's pretty hard to second guess franchising him last year since we won the SB.....lol

Whats another mill next year as long as we repeat??

drizze99
02-19-2009, 04:41 PM
It's pretty hard to second guess franchising him last year since we won the SB.....lol

Whats another mill next year as long as we repeat??

IMO, he wasn't worth the 6.9 mill he got last year and now our problem keeps escalating.

I think we have 9-10 picks in this upcoming draft and we better draft atleast 4-5 O-linemen

atlsteelers
02-19-2009, 04:42 PM
what you think if we had combined that 6.9 he made last year and the 8.4 and signed him to 20 million 4 year deal or something. must give starks and his agent props they know how to play the system. An average player making sh*t ton of money.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 04:47 PM
$8.4 Million!

It's simply due to poor planning and could have been avoided had they started better addressing the o-line issues a few years ago.

I agree, but it would have meant drafting Joe Staley or Tony Ugoh instead of Lawrence Timmons in 2007.........or Duane Brown instead of Rashard Mendenhall last season.

Would you have done either of those??

Curtain_of_Steel
02-19-2009, 04:56 PM
"Starks is young a community man"
Sorry, you get paid for playing, and you a stay a Steeler for not being in trouble. just because you do work in the community, does not warrant any paycheck.
If you want players who do community service, root for the Bengals, lol

someone also said no one on the Oline is worth 8million. Did you mean the entire line, or anyone one guy, LOL Because it could go either way, lol.

As far as how much will he want? He just received 8million plus, guarrantteed, you think he is going to take less over 4 years? We gave up Faneca for that.

Give It To Abercrombie
02-19-2009, 04:58 PM
I agree, but it would have meant drafting Joe Staley or Tony Ugoh instead of Lawrence Timmons in 2007.........or Duane Brown instead of Rashard Mendenhall last season.

Would you have done either of those??

I'm sorry, you are not allowed to use logic when discussing our past drafts. :whistle:

You must only rant that our front office is stupid, all the while being thrilled at how we contend EVERY YEAR.

Remember, no logic, only rant.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 05:08 PM
I'm sorry, you are not allowed to use logic when discussing our past drafts. :whistle:

You must only rant that our front office is stupid, all the while being thrilled at how we contend EVERY YEAR.

Remember, no logic, only rant.
Sorry, but I forgot :doh: How is this....?

How stupid can Colbert be?!?!?! HE could have drafted Tony Ugoh instead of Timmons and the guy could have been playing LT for 2 seasons instead of watching Timmons backup Larry Foote!!!!

Ugoh is only making $1million a season and he's a way better LT than Starks!!!! This team isn't gonna win anything!!! :banging:

Sorry, but I couldnt get all the logic out of that rant. :noidea:

drizze99
02-19-2009, 05:12 PM
Uh, some people need a reality check. You cant seriously expect our team to draft that many O-linemen in a single draft. And if we did, what would u expect, 4-5 new faces on next year's O-line? All players need time to develop. O-linemen moving up from college are usually rookie starters only if they were exceptionally good at the college level....Few people think Max is worth all that money, i agree, but i think it was a safe choice. We cant afford to lose too many bodies on this O-line. Im pretty sure im not the only one thinking that the Steelers intend to draft a Guard/Center first.

Why not? Obviously you haven't paid attention to all of the talent coming out this year on the o-line.... :coffee:

MasterOfPuppets
02-19-2009, 05:12 PM
well i guess it's adios marvel......:wave: .....there goes 8 mill, of that 19 mill cap space...:doh:

Preacher
02-19-2009, 05:14 PM
:rofl:

Well, that answers that question.

Good. We can move on. And no, I don't think it was lack of planning, it was having so many lineman coming up at the same time.

We keep him off FA list. Now we can work a long term deal for him, and focus on the interior line.

Edman
02-19-2009, 05:22 PM
I remember people saying tagging Starks last year was a stupid idea as well. Oh well, this team sucks and is never going to win anything.

Adios, Marvel.

Preacher
02-19-2009, 05:23 PM
well i guess it's adios marvel......:wave: .....there goes 8 mill, of that 19 mill cap space...:doh:

No, I seriously think this was a move to keep him out of FA.


THINK ABOUT THIS----

We signed starks last year, to see what he could do if we needed him in another place (read, if Marvel crashes and burns). He came in and played LT VERY WELL comparatively. I was actually impressed.

So now we let Marvel go. So why RESIGN him to another 1 year contract?

1. Flexibility. If an excellent LT falls to us in the draft, we can pick him up and let Starks go without a cap hit next year.

2. If we don't get a good LT in the draft, we can resign starks to a long term deal.

3. If another team wants him, we get good picks out of it.

Once again, our FO shows why THEY are controlling this team, not the fans.

drizze99
02-19-2009, 05:24 PM
Theres 31 other teams who recognize that theres a wealth of O-line talent in this year's draft (except maybe Al Davis' and his Raiders :flap:). We wont be snatching amazing O-linemen left and right. We might get a couple gems, but Id be surprised if the Steelers drafted more than 2 O-linemen. The Rooneys always seem to know whats best for the longterm. They will most definitely not have a panic attack about our O-line's performance last year and draft O-linemen by the bulk.

Thats true but there is mock draft out there that I love so far for the Steelers and 3 of the first 4 picks in the draft are o-linemen.

1) Alex Mack - C
2) Herman Johnson - G
3) Mitch King - DE/DT
4) Cornelius Lewis - OT

That looks like a good damn start to me....

drizze99
02-19-2009, 05:30 PM
Posted by Preacher:

THINK ABOUT THIS----

We signed starks last year, to see what he could do if we needed him in another place (read, if Marvel crashes and burns). He came in and played LT VERY WELL comparatively. I was actually impressed.

So now we let Marvel go. So why RESIGN him to another 1 year contract?

1. Flexibility. If an excellent LT falls to us in the draft, we can pick him up and let Starks go without a cap hit next year. [True]

2. If we don't get a good LT in the draft, we can resign starks to a long term deal. [Who says he will sign a deal? How much will he want since we overpaid him 2 years in a row?]

3. If another team wants him, we get good picks out of it. [Who is dumb enough to do that? All you have to do is watch tape on him to know he ain't worth it]

Once again, our FO shows why THEY are controlling this team, not the fans. [This is true but as a fan I don't have to agree with everything the F.O. does and IMO, this move sucks]

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 05:30 PM
:rofl:

And no, I don't think it was lack of planning, it was having so many lineman coming up at the same time.
.

You dont think it was lack of planning??? How do you explain transition tagging a guy for $6.9million last season.........that didn't even start the first 4 games of the season???

Do you think if Joe Staley or Tony Ugoh was on the roster instead of Timmons, that the Steelers would be paying over $8million for a guy that Scouts Inc. rates like this...

OT Max Starks -- Steelers
He has very good size and functional play strength for a left tackle. He still has a lot of potential, but has struggled throughout the season with consistency. He doesn't always bend well and has limited lateral quickness in pass protection. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs2008/news/story?id=3849137

It is entirely poor succession planning on the offensive line and could mean that the Steelers will be unable to address other players in free agency like Bryant McFadden, Chris Canty, Nate Washington, Chris Kemoateu, Keyaron Fox....etc.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 05:36 PM
1. Flexibility. If an excellent LT falls to us in the draft, we can pick him up and let Starks go without a cap hit next year.
.

Preacher, I think this is an excellent point!!! It may be another 1 year hit on the wallet in the hope we get a decent LT in the draft or that Tony Hills pans out by his 3rd season.

The only downside is that it does handcuff the team and their ability to retain other guys....most notably McFadden this year, Heath Miller next season and the extension of James Harrison currently.

Hopefully they get it all done and a kid like Eben Britton is there for us, but I think Britton will be long gone before #32.

jjpro11
02-19-2009, 05:43 PM
does this mean B-Mac is gone? he was priority #1 and hasnt signed a deal yet.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 05:49 PM
does this mean B-Mac is gone? he was priority #1 and hasnt signed a deal yet.

Not sure, but my guess is yes.

Steelers reportedly had $17 mil under the cap, so this leaves $9mil and my guess is that most of that will be used up in extending the contract of James Harrison. Adalius Thomas signed a contract with the Patriots in 2007 that averaged $7mil a year........so Harrison will get more.

steelerdave1969
02-19-2009, 05:55 PM
This is down right STUPID. Starks is not worth that kind of money.... WTF

I thought our F.O. was smarter than this.....

I think the Steelers did what they had to do myself. They could not afford to lose all the linemen that they have up for free agency and I think that Max Starks has done a good enough job for the Steelers to keep him and let Marvel Smith go if he isnt willing to take alot less money to stay with the Steelers.
Drizze, I think the Steelers front office is alot smarter than what your giving them credit for, just check the numbers the last 20 years or so.

mesaSteeler
02-19-2009, 05:57 PM
Steelers tag Starks for second time
Comment Email Print Share
By John Clayton
ESPN.com

Pittsburgh Steelers offensive tackle Max Starks received the team's franchise tag Thursday -- even though he isn't guaranteed a job as a starter.

Starks became the 13th NFL player tagged before the 4 p.m. ET deadline. He received a one-year tender at $8.451 million. Last year, Starks had a $6.985 million franchise tender as the team's transition tag. The franchise number given to Starks this year was based on the average of the top-five cap numbers of offensive linemen around the league from last season.

Any team wishing to sign Starks would have to surrender two first-round draft picks, but the Steelers would have seven days to match any offer and, thus, keep him.

Despite being franchised last year, Starks started the regular season on the bench. Left tackle Marvel Smith had back problems during the season and Starks took over the position and helped the Steelers to their sixth Super Bowl title.

Senior writer John Clayton covers the NFL for ESPN.com.

BlastFurnace
02-19-2009, 05:58 PM
does this mean B-Mac is gone? he was priority #1 and hasnt signed a deal yet.

Not sure, but with Rosenhaus being his agent...and seeing two deals for CB's that have gone down already...you know BMAC is getting a pretty good idea of what is coming to him. IMO, he's not as good as the Oakland corner, but better than the Carolina corner.

I try to look at the big picture with BMAC in comparison to next year's problem with some of the FA's. Would I rather have BMAC this year, or...let's say...Heath Miller next year. It's a no-brainer with that one. BMAC is a heckuva player, but we still have Deshea, Gay, and perhaps someone else who can step in and play. The dropoff isn't huge.

If we lose Heath next year, the dropoff is huge. I'm not saying that is what is going on...nor am I saying that it would be impossible to re-up BMAC and keep many of the guys next year, but IMO, we have bigger fish in the pond than BMAC.

Bottom line...the FO has earned our trust. It's time to see what they can do.

steelerdave1969
02-19-2009, 05:58 PM
Preacher, I think this is an excellent point!!! It may be another 1 year hit on the wallet in the hope we get a decent LT in the draft or that Tony Hills pans out by his 3rd season.

The only downside is that it does handcuff the team and their ability to retain other guys....most notably McFadden this year, Heath Miller next season and the extension of James Harrison currently.

Hopefully they get it all done and a kid like Eben Britton is there for us, but I think Britton will be long gone before #32.

As much as everyone hates Max Starks, I think the Steelers are doing this in thoughts that they are gonna keep him and work something out long term and or atleast that is what I think and I think that is the right thing to do myself.

lilyoder6
02-19-2009, 06:00 PM
9 mill left with a shit load of FA and draft picks.. sucks to be the FO right now

lilyoder6
02-19-2009, 06:05 PM
or unless the steelers can get a deal with starks for how ever many yrs to take away the 8.5 mill hit this yr

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 06:07 PM
As much as everyone hates Max Starks, I think the Steelers are doing this in thoughts that they are gonna keep him and work something out long term and or atleast that is what I think and I think that is the right thing to do myself.

I dont hate Starks. I hate the idea of extending a guy to a long term deal where most pro scouting experts and personell rate him as: has struggled throughout the season with consistency. He doesn't always bend well and has limited lateral quickness in pass protection

If they paid Starks a 4 year, $16million deal I would say that is about right. Its about what Jon Stinchcomb's contract is worth and what Starks is worth. I hope Starks just gets tagged for another single season.

SaskSteeler
02-19-2009, 06:08 PM
Why wouldnt they use the tag on Bmac?

StainlessStill
02-19-2009, 06:15 PM
It's all about figures. The Steelers front office has something up their sleeve and went it's time to push and shove, their decision is always the right one. They know what they are doing. Starks was a starter on the offensive line for 2 outta the last 2 Superbowl victories. Offensive tackles are hard to come buy in this league and like Mark Shlereth said of NFL LIVE, other than the Quarterback, left tackle is the 2nd most important man on your offense. Locking Starks up at LT will pay off in the long run.

NJarhead
02-19-2009, 06:23 PM
:rofl:

Well, that answers that question.

Good. We can move on. And no, I don't think it was lack of planning, it was having so many lineman coming up at the same time.

We keep him off FA list. Now we can work a long term deal for him, and focus on the interior line.

I agree. This will only affect this year and I don't think there are any FA's better than him available. If Ben was to get sacked even more next year (especially from that side) people would have asked why we couldn't have kept Starks. He was a priority IMO.

StainlessStill
02-19-2009, 06:26 PM
I agree. This will only affect this year and I don't think there are any FA's better than him available. If Ben was to get sacked even more next year (especially from that side) people would have asked why we couldn't have kept Starks. He was a priority IMO.

Time to put Santonio in your sig, WarDen:tt:

GBMelBlount
02-19-2009, 06:29 PM
You dont think it was lack of planning??? How do you explain transition tagging a guy for $6.9million last season.........that didn't even start the first 4 games of the season???

Do you think if Joe Staley or Tony Ugoh was on the roster instead of Timmons, that the Steelers would be paying over $8million for a guy that Scouts Inc. rates like this...

OT Max Starks -- Steelers
He has very good size and functional play strength for a left tackle. He still has a lot of potential, but has struggled throughout the season with consistency. He doesn't always bend well and has limited lateral quickness in pass protection. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs2008/news/story?id=3849137

It is entirely poor succession planning on the offensive line and could mean that the Steelers will be unable to address other players in free agency like Bryant McFadden, Chris Canty, Nate Washington, Chris Kemoateu, Keyaron Fox....etc.

I agree El Gonzo. There were concerns with our line even before Hartings retired and Faneca left and who have we really drafted the last couple years? I am as pleased as the next guy with some of our draft picks, our defense, and that we won the super bowl. But again, Starks being paid megamillions more than he is worth, and much of our o-line problems for that matter, was potentially avoidable with better planning. I guess we'll see how this pans out......

ricksteelers55
02-19-2009, 06:44 PM
First of all, we all know that the top priority is the O-Line,therefore there is NO linemen in the draft(at 32) that are going to be better than Starks.

Then we dont have any big names to re-sign that are not expandable(BMac is good but Gay can do his job for less money)

Washington could stay depending on how much he's asking

and finally Starks is a good friend of Roethlisberger,and like it or not I think that it has a little something to do.

at appr. 8 mil a year it is overpaying him a bit but we need to do what's best for the team and as someone pointed out earlier,we have to overpay for our lack of management on that asset.

anyway I still think Id rather keep him at 8 mil than starting any rookie at LT

NJarhead
02-19-2009, 06:44 PM
Time to put Santonio in your sig, WarDen:tt:

I'm waiting for my peeps to get his computer back up to speed. But yes, it is over due. lol

KeiselPower99
02-19-2009, 07:33 PM
Ya know I think the only reason they did this is because they are nowhere near close to an agreement. Anyways he was paid 7 million last year if he dont get a long term deal its a 700,000 pay raise.

tony hipchest
02-19-2009, 07:50 PM
I agree El Gonzo. There were concerns with our line even before Hartings retired and Faneca left and who have we really drafted the last couple years? I am as pleased as the next guy with some of our draft picks, our defense, and that we won the super bowl. But again, Starks being paid megamillions more than he is worth, and much of our o-line problems for that matter, was potentially avoidable with better planning. I guess we'll see how this pans out......we need better scouting in the o-line dept. where okolbi, starks, essex and kemoeatu were drafted (amongst others) theres no reason to think we couldnt field a quality line. its not like the position was neglected in regards to the draft.

oh, and extending harrison this year could actually save us a million off the cap.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 07:56 PM
First of all, we all know that the top priority is the O-Line,therefore there is NO linemen in the draft(at 32) that are going to be better than Starks.

To start right away, no I dont think there will be a LT at #32 that will be better than Starks unless Eben Britton falls that far. The other side is that we could trade up to #20 and maybe get the 4th best OT and he definately will be better than Starks.

Basically, at #32 there should be Alex Mack, Duke Robinson, Eric Wood, Phil Loadholt and Jamon Meridith. In 2010 I would rather have any one of those players ............instead of Max Starks.

NJarhead
02-19-2009, 07:59 PM
To start right away, no I dont think there will be a LT at #32 that will be better than Starks unless Eben Britton falls that far. The other side is that we could trade up to #20 and maybe get the 4th best OT and he definately will be better than Starks.

Basically, at #32 there should be Alex Mack, Duke Robinson, Eric Wood, Phil Loadholt and Jamon Meridith. In 2010 I would rather have any one of those players ............instead of Max Starks.

So, you don't trust the Super Bowl Champion Steelers front office with making personnel decisions? Admittedly, I've scratched my head a few times in the past, but they've done a pretty good job for very long time. So, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt these days that they know what they're doing.

steelerbackr4life
02-19-2009, 08:04 PM
I like it

Preacher
02-19-2009, 08:04 PM
we need better scouting in the o-line dept. where okolbi, starks, essex and kemoeatu were drafted (amongst others) theres no reason to think we couldnt field a quality line. its not like the position was neglected in regards to the draft.

oh, and extending harrison this year could actually save us a million off the cap.


Yep, backloading the contract.

We also have to remember that all those lineman were drafted to run block first... not play a balanced game.

It takes a different type of lineman.

Once again, we are in transition. . . and won a SB while in that transitition. Gotta admit, that is pretty dang good.

SteelMember
02-19-2009, 08:04 PM
Any team wishing to sign Starks would have to surrender two first-round draft picks, but the Steelers would have seven days to match any offer and, thus, keep him.

We can all wish, right? :hope: :chuckle:

That's a pretty steep price for any team that may have had any inerest before. So it's just another high priced insurance policy so they don't come up empty handed. He is our best option, so they made it difficult for anyone else to pluck him away.

Btw, he has started both tackle positions in a super bowl...and has a ring for each. :noidea:

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 08:07 PM
we need better scouting in the o-line dept. where okolbi, starks, essex and kemoeatu were drafted (amongst others) theres no reason to think we couldnt field a quality line. its not like the position was neglected in regards to the draft.

oh, and extending harrison this year could actually save us a million off the cap.

Tony, you have to consider that Okobi (5th round), Kemo (6th round) were longshot picks to pan out. Essex, most felt was a 6th round developmental guy, but the Steelers took him in the 3rd when Nick Kazur, Ray Willis, Dan Beuning were on the board. (I know............thou shalt not question the front office!!!)

We cant really field a quality line with 5th and 6th round projects, nor 3rd round guys like Starks that look like Tarzan and play like Jane. Faneca, Smith, Hartings, Simmons were all 1st and 2nd round picks and as time went on we needed to replace them with guys like Mangold, Kalil, Setele, Blaylock, Ugoh, Grubbs, etc.

We are basically putting band-aids on bulletholes because we didnt want to spend the time to put on our kevlar.

86WARD
02-19-2009, 08:11 PM
Not crazy about this tag...I'd rather have seen it go to McFadden or not be used at all...

Preacher
02-19-2009, 08:14 PM
Tony, you have to consider that Okobi (5th round), Kemo (6th round) were longshot picks to pan out. Essex, most felt was a 6th round developmental guy, but the Steelers took him in the 3rd when Nick Kazur, Ray Willis, Dan Beuning were on the board. (I know............thou shalt not question the front office!!!)

We cant really field a quality line with 5th and 6th round projects, nor 3rd round guys like Starks that look like Tarzan and play like Jane. Faneca, Smith, Hartings, Simmons were all 1st and 2nd round picks and as time went on we needed to replace them with guys like Mangold, Kalil, Setele, Blaylock, Ugoh, Grubbs, etc.

We are basically putting band-aids on bulletholes because we didnt want to spend the time to put on our kevlar.


And again, I have to wonder why about the reasoning both the OC and the Line coach were not picked... since these decisions were made under them.

SteelCityMan786
02-19-2009, 08:16 PM
thats a lot of money, hopefully they can work a 5-6 yr deal.

If they don't and Starks doesn't accept the tag, one team won't be happy since they have to give up picks.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 08:17 PM
So, you don't trust the Super Bowl Champion Steelers front office with making personnel decisions? Admittedly, I've scratched my head a few times in the past, but they've done a pretty good job for very long time. So, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt these days that they know what they're doing.

No, that is not really what I am saying. It's just that they got caught up with drafting 2 LB's (Timmons and Woodley) when they already had Porter, Harrison, Haggans under contract.............and neglected the O line.

They went and got another TE in matt Spaeth instead of an O lineman like Marshall Yanda. Then this past year they got another LB in Bruce Davis when they could have got OT Anthony Collins from Kansas.

Its like spending money on an awesome paint job and kickin new stereo system for your classic old Dodge Charger so it looks good........but your really needed to overhaul the engine because it burns more oil than gas.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 08:20 PM
And again, I have to wonder why about the reasoning both the OC and the Line coach were not picked... since these decisions were made under them.

Preach, I dont understand what you are trying to say here. :noidea:

Are you saying that Grimm and Whiz did or didnt have input on the selection of Okobi, Kemo, Essex and Starks?? I have no clue where you are going with this.

tony hipchest
02-19-2009, 08:22 PM
Tony, you have to consider that Okobi (5th round), Kemo (6th round) were longshot picks to pan out. Essex, most felt was a 6th round developmental guy, but the Steelers took him in the 3rd when Nick Kazur, Ray Willis, Dan Beuning were on the board. (I know............thou shalt not question the front office!!!)

We cant really field a quality line with 5th and 6th round projects, nor 3rd round guys like Starks that look like Tarzan and play like Jane. Faneca, Smith, Hartings, Simmons were all 1st and 2nd round picks and as time went on we needed to replace them with guys like Mangold, Kalil, Setele, Blaylock, Ugoh, Grubbs, etc.

We are basically putting band-aids on bulletholes because we didnt want to spend the time to put on our kevlar.good point. i was thinking they were all 3rd & 4th rounders like starks, except for kemo. i knew he was a 6th but thought he had 2nd round grade potential were it not for kicking people in the head issues.

i sure hope we can trade starks for a third.

Preacher
02-19-2009, 08:26 PM
Preach, I dont understand what you are trying to say here. :noidea:

Are you saying that Grimm and Whiz did or didnt have input on the selection of Okobi, Kemo, Essex and Starks?? I have no clue where you are going with this.

that they did. Fact is, most of our problem on the line, including the lack of depth, has been created by those two plus Cowher.

Now, we have gone two drafts without any significant 1st day choices. Let's see what happens this year.

Of course, that ASSUMES that there IS someone left on the board that our guys think are viable.

tony hipchest
02-19-2009, 08:32 PM
that they did. Fact is, most of our problem on the line, including the lack of depth, has been created by those two plus Cowher.

Now, we have gone two drafts without any significant 1st day choices. Let's see what happens this year.

Of course, that ASSUMES that there IS someone left on the board that our guys think are viable.i agree. they were drafted with the "9 man line" mentality that grew and developed around our offensive stars- bettis and kordell.

5 linemen + kreider, tuman, breuner, and ward as the 4 extra blockers.

any team is gonna look pretty good with the best 250 lb+ back in history and a running qb with 4 extra blockers. no wonder kordell could usually make only 1 read. you are what you practice. :noidea:

devilsdancefloor
02-19-2009, 08:36 PM
ok i might not be understanding the cap space right, but if we paid him 6.9 mill and it is up to 8.4 thats a diference of 1.5 mill so wouldnt we still have 16.5 cap room? plus we cut marvel that is another 6 mill i beleive. I have faith in the FO besides Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to coach or be the GM of the Steelers or any other professional sports team. if we can get hines to restructure (9mill cap hit i beleive). I think we can sign bmac harrison fox & kemo and have cap room. and maybe start talks with miller for next year :noidea:. Im just glad i am not in the warroom at the moment.

KeiselPower99
02-19-2009, 08:58 PM
Obviously the FO knows what it doing. We all questioned this move last year but hade they not done it we wouldve had Trai Essex starting for us. Ill take Max anyday.

MasterOfPuppets
02-19-2009, 09:21 PM
ok i might not be understanding the cap space right, but if we paid him 6.9 mill and it is up to 8.4 thats a diference of 1.5 mill so wouldnt we still have 16.5 cap room? plus we cut marvel that is another 6 mill i beleive. I have faith in the FO besides Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to coach or be the GM of the Steelers or any other professional sports team. if we can get hines to restructure (9mill cap hit i beleive). I think we can sign bmac harrison fox & kemo and have cap room. and maybe start talks with miller for next year :noidea:. Im just glad i am not in the warroom at the moment.last years tag was the transition tag, which is the average pay of the top 10....this year its the franchise tag , which is the avg of the top 5.... i guess they couldn't use the transition 2 years in a row :noidea:

marvel smith is a free agent so the steelers neither owe, or save anything with his departure...there estimated cap space was around 19 mill....now subtract 8.4 from that.

HometownGal
02-19-2009, 09:25 PM
Don't get me wrong - I really like Max, but I just don't believe he is worth that kind of loot. Yes - he did an adequate job this past season, but adequate doesn't command cash like that.

Oh well - I'm going to have to do as I always do and trust the Steelers FO on this one. They usually know exactly what they're doing.

MasterOfPuppets
02-19-2009, 09:46 PM
Don't get me wrong - I really like Max, but I just don't believe he is worth that kind of loot. Yes - he did an adequate job this past season, but adequate doesn't command cash like that.

Oh well - I'm going to have to do as I always do and trust the Steelers FO on this one. They usually know exactly what they're doing.oh i'm pretty sure the steelers don't think he's worth it either, otherwise they'd have made him the big long term offer he wouldn't refuse. just like last year this is just a security move, and probably more neccessary than it was last year. last year it was only for depth.....they can't run the risk of not finding a guy in free agaency or the draft that can come in and do the job right away....apparently they have zero confidence in essex or hills. they may still be able to get a longer more cap friendly deal done with starks, but after making the $ he did last year, and getting the the top 5 offer this year, he in his own mind might think he's worthy of that kinda money. basically he knows the steelers are desperate, and he's in the drivers seat.

NJarhead
02-19-2009, 09:48 PM
Here's a dumb question, but can't the franchise tag be replaced by a contract before next years FA? And if so, then can't it be replaced by a contract by the end of the week? :chuckle: Seriously.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 09:49 PM
Obviously the FO knows what it doing. We all questioned this move last year but hade they not done it we wouldve had Trai Essex starting for us. Ill take Max anyday.

And I would have rather let Starks go last season, receive a compensatory pick for him this year and have saved the $6.9million. We then could have picked up Willie Anderson or Shane Olivea to play RT and I would have lived with either Anderson or Essex playing the LT spot.

I believe Trai Essex is a better pass protector than Starks, but not as good a run blocker. Starks is rather inconsistent in run blocking, so its pretty much a wash IMO.

lilyoder6
02-19-2009, 09:53 PM
i just hope we can get a lt to groom or get starks to a contract.. b/c i don't want his ass 2 be tagged 3 yrs in a row

HometownGal
02-19-2009, 09:57 PM
oh i'm pretty sure the steelers don't think he's worth it either, otherwise they'd have made him the big long term offer he wouldn't refuse. just like last year this is just a security move, and probably more neccessary than it was last year. last year it was only for depth.....they can't run the risk of not finding a guy in free agaency or the draft that can come in and do the job right away....apparently they have zero confidence in essex or hills. they may still be able to get a longer more cap friendly deal done with starks, but after making the $ he did last year, and getting the the top 5 offer this year, he in his own mind might think he's worthy of that kinda money. basically he knows the steelers are desperate, and he's in the drivers seat.

Yes MOP - unfortunately I believe you are right.

StainlessStill
02-19-2009, 09:57 PM
And I would have rather let Starks go last season, receive a compensatory pick for him this year and have saved the $6.9million. We then could have picked up Willie Anderson or Shane Olivea to play RT and I would have lived with either Anderson or Essex playing the LT spot.

I believe Trai Essex is a better pass protector than Starks, but not as good a run blocker. Starks is rather inconsistent in run blocking, so its pretty much a wash IMO.

This isn't the Steelers policy. The way they work is pulling in their own players. There was a chance to make a move with Starks and we were fully aware the need for lineman and the way we acted on Starks is nothing but direction. If we have a shot at our own players versus someone other organizations players, we give our players the length of our arm and then go from there. Signing Starks to this deal will give us oppurinity to build around the personal we got while at the same time maintaining the core and it starts with Starks. Period.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 09:58 PM
that they did. Fact is, most of our problem on the line, including the lack of depth, has been created by those two plus Cowher.

Now, we have gone two drafts without any significant 1st day choices. Let's see what happens this year.

Of course, that ASSUMES that there IS someone left on the board that our guys think are viable.

While I agree that the Cowher era didnt do any favors by drafting Starks, Essex, Okobi, Bo Lacy, Mathias Nkwenti, etc to improve the line. I cant give the current regime a pass.

They could have drafted in 2007
RD #1 Ben Grubbs
RD #2 Lamarr Woodley
RD#3 Marshall Yanda

and in 2008

Rd #1 Mendenhall
RD#2 Jeremy Zuttah
RD#3 Anthony Collins

Sure, we would not have Sweed, Bruce Davis or Lawrence Timmons, but at least we would save over $8mil this year on an OT and be able to extend Nate Washington, McFadden, etc.

I WASNT THE ONLY GUY THINKING OF THIS. I know Master Of Puppets wanted Grubbs, Blaylock or Khalil in 2007 and I bet he was at least wanting Zuttah in the 2nd instead of Sweed last year. 3 young linemen would be a good core starting the 2009 season.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 10:02 PM
This isn't the Steelers policy. The way they work is pulling in their own players. .

So by having a OT depth of Marvel Smith, Trai Essex, Willie Colon and Willie Anderson last season it would be somehow against "the Steeler Way"???

Jeff Hartings was a free agent pickup, so was Justin Hartwig and Sean Mahan before him. Having 3 of your draft picks and 1 free agent at OT isn't exactly out of the ordinary.

silverbackattack
02-19-2009, 10:03 PM
While I agree that the Cowher era didnt do any favors by drafting Starks, Essex, Okobi, Bo Lacy, Mathias Nkwenti, etc to improve the line. I cant give the current regime a pass.

They could have drafted in 2007
RD #1 Ben Grubbs
RD #2 Lamarr Woodley
RD#3 Marshall Yanda

and in 2008

Rd #1 Mendenhall
RD#2 Jeremy Zuttah
RD#3 Anthony Collins

Sure, we would not have Sweed, Bruce Davis or Lawrence Timmons, but at least we would save over $8mil this year on an OT and be able to extend Nate Washington, McFadden, etc.

Sweed, davis and timmons. Let's just say we wouldn't have Timmons.

NJarhead
02-19-2009, 10:05 PM
So by having a OT depth of Marvel Smith, Trai Essex, Willie Colon and Willie Anderson last season it would be somehow against "the Steeler Way"???

Jeff Hartings was a free agent pickup, so was Justin Hartwig and Sean Mahan before him. Having 3 of your draft picks and 1 free agent at OT isn't exactly out of the ordinary.

Was Wille Anderson even available before we tagged Starks last year? Before the draft?

tony hipchest
02-19-2009, 10:07 PM
honestly, im really stumped.

i just hope ben or larry z isnt behind this move. knowing that would give me a bit more confidence in it.

GBMelBlount
02-19-2009, 10:19 PM
While I agree that the Cowher era didnt do any favors by drafting Starks, Essex, Okobi, Bo Lacy, Mathias Nkwenti, etc to improve the line. I cant give the current regime a pass.

They could have drafted in 2007
RD #1 Ben Grubbs
RD #2 Lamarr Woodley
RD#3 Marshall Yanda

and in 2008

Rd #1 Mendenhall
RD#2 Jeremy Zuttah
RD#3 Anthony Collins

Sure, we would not have Sweed, Bruce Davis or Lawrence Timmons, but at least we would save over $8mil this year on an OT and be able to extend Nate Washington, McFadden, etc.

I WASNT THE ONLY GUY THINKING OF THIS. I know Master Of Puppets wanted Grubbs, Blaylock or Khalil in 2007 and I bet he was at least wanting Zuttah in the 2nd instead of Sweed last year. 3 young linemen would be a good core starting the 2009 season.

I think this simply shows that we did have opportunities to better address what was largely felt by many to be our biggest weakness......and it is costing us in the wallet now. That's all.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 10:26 PM
Was Wille Anderson even available before we tagged Starks last year? Before the draft?

No, but Olivea was. And you always know that if 7 OT's are drafted in the 1st round (maybe 6 this year) there will be some veterans released in camp.

My thought was that the OT's coming out of camp would be Smith, Essex, Colon, Olivea and a draft pick( I wanted Anthony Collins in the 3rd). Turns out that Anderson was available after final camp cuts on Aug 30.

StainlessStill
02-19-2009, 10:29 PM
So by having a OT depth of Marvel Smith, Trai Essex, Willie Colon and Willie Anderson last season it would be somehow against "the Steeler Way"???

Jeff Hartings was a free agent pickup, so was Justin Hartwig and Sean Mahan before him. Having 3 of your draft picks and 1 free agent at OT isn't exactly out of the ordinary.

Lineman are the exception because lineman are lineman and you could snag one cheap and turn him into a system player within a couple years .We had to go out of house on Hartings because of Dawson retiring and Sean Mahan because of Hartings retiring (plus he had ties from Tampa along w/ Tomlin.)

Mahan didn't cut it so we were forced to go after Hartwig, esp after all the Chucky Okobi debacle with the competition with Mahan.

My point is, is that if the Steelers have in house players who could get the job done, they will offer their players first and foremost the benefit of the doubt and Starks got the offer because he showed promise and proved he could get the job done along with being apart of the core for the Oline. We don't have to worry about bringing in another LT and risking another year of competition not panning out and chemistry issues with new players plugged in different positions and the round and round we go. They know what their doing.

StainlessStill
02-19-2009, 10:34 PM
Im not sure what would be better for the team...going after one of many great OT's in the draft, or going after C/G Alex Mack...


Considering Colberts reaction to the drafting questioning, it almost seemed as if he was more concerned on the Defensive front rather that the Offensive front. I wouldn't be surprised if we went DT first round, esp. considering how deep Offensive Lineman could go.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 10:38 PM
Even more insane of a draft in 2008 would have been below. No Mendy, Sweed, Davis or Hills.......but man would we be young on the lines.

RD#1 Philip Merling DE
RD#2 Jeremy Zuttah OG
RD#3 Anthony Collins OT
Rd#4 Carl Nicks OG/RT

I never advocated Merling, but pimped the other 3 on draft day. Nicks started 13 games for the Saints, Zuttah 5 for the Bucs and Collins 6 at LT for the Bengals(and he held James Harrison without a sack).

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 10:39 PM
Considering Colberts reaction to the drafting questioning, it almost seemed as if he was more concerned on the Defensive front rather that the Offensive front. I wouldn't be surprised if we went DT first round, esp. considering how deep Offensive Lineman could go.

It could be a smokescreen too. This time last year all they kept saying is we need to get younger on both lines. I dont believe anything a coach or GM says 2 months before the draft.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 10:44 PM
Im not sure what would be better for the team...going after one of many great OT's in the draft, or going after C/G Alex Mack...

It really depends if they reach a long term contract with Starks. If Starks is only on a 1 year tag deal and Oher, Jason Smith, Eben Britton drop to 19-25, I say trade up and take them with the intention they start in 2010. I'd even move up from #32 - 25 for William Beatty.

If nothing like that happens or Starks is signed to a long term deal, then I say take whoever you value most on your board of Mack, Robinson, Wood, Meridith, Loadholt.

NJarhead
02-19-2009, 10:47 PM
No, but Olivea was. And you always know that if 7 OT's are drafted in the 1st round (maybe 6 this year) there will be some veterans released in camp.

My thought was that the OT's coming out of camp would be Smith, Essex, Colon, Olivea and a draft pick( I wanted Anthony Collins in the 3rd). Turns out that Anderson was available after final camp cuts on Aug 30.

You definitely make some valid point EGJ.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-19-2009, 10:57 PM
You definitely make some valid point EGJ.

Yeah, but its really a crap shoot of having a LT of Essex, Anderson, Anthony Collins or Starks when Marvel Smith went down. I was willing to roll the dice this time last year, but I am honestly just a longtime fan posting on a website. Although, I think it would have worked.

StainlessStill
02-19-2009, 11:14 PM
Yeah, but its really a crap shoot of having a LT of Essex, Anderson, Anthony Collins or Starks when Marvel Smith went down. I was willing to roll the dice this time last year, but I am honestly just a longtime fan posting on a website. Although, I think it would have worked.

Yeah, it can get frustrating as a fan. Reality is, is that this is a business and you have hundreds of agents and players to re-work year in and year out and then there's the financial side of every player and also against the cap and the league rules with trades, deadline and free agency that you cannot spend an eternity on one position knowing in the back of your mind that there are also other players to tend to. This means not signing this guy in order to sign this guy and what's in the best interest of the Pittsburgh Steelers winning football games.

This game along with what goes on behind the scenes is truly a bunch of craziness, mixed in with smarts, genius, and sometimes doubt. God Bless the NFL.

OX1947
02-19-2009, 11:28 PM
This was not a long term decision for the Steelers. They tagged Starks for the same exact reason they did last year, insurance. And it paid off in a big way this year when Marvel went down. Starks was really the only guy on the line this year that was consistent and didn't false start or hold every other play.

By tagging Starks, this will allow the Steelers at least one of their vet lineman to come back next year. The most dependable one. The Steelers badly need a center and guard, so I believe that what they will address that in the draft.

This will also keep Starks hungry and playing well so he can get his long term next year while the young lineman who are drafted or picked up in free agency have a year to acclimate themselves into the system. If Starks is still in demand next year, steelers probably let him test the market and if someone give him a 5 yr deal for 8 per, then he is a goner.

Steelers have some key guys in their last year coming up. Miller, ward and Silverback. Silverback will be taken care of, ward should retire a Steeler and Miller is going to be a HUGE priority for the Steelers. If they can't sign Miller to a deal before this year then Miller will be tagged next year.

Steelers are always looking 2 or 3 steps ahead, I'm quite amazed and how good they are even though they have had 9 straight 1st round players become bonafide studs or starters.

MasterOfPuppets
02-20-2009, 03:16 AM
Steelers are always looking 2 or 3 steps ahead, I'm quite amazed and how good they are even though they have had 9 straight 1st round players become bonafide studs or starters. yeah.....thats why they're paying an average, should be backup, tackle , top tier money..... i could understand it if starks was the only mistake on the steelers line....but damn...not one of them bums should realisticly be starters, let alone all 5 on the same team !!! so spare me the 2 or 3 steps ahead crap....if it were true, we wouldn't be discussing this....and we sure as hell wouldn't have been discussing sean mahan last year...:coffee:

OneForTheToe
02-20-2009, 03:25 AM
I'll join the chorus of those who say Max isn't worth 8 mill plus. However, I think some of the concern expressed here by many is misplaced. First, this has little effect on are ability to extend Harrison or Heath. When a player gets an extention while still under contract his cap price rarely goes up in his that year. In fact, it sometimes actually comes down beacause the salary is converted to signing bonus. As far as our other FA this season. We are not going to sign them all anyways. I would like to see B-Mac signed, but some are reacting like he is of Pro Bowl caliber, and I do not believe that. Second, by only having a one year deal the Steelers are left with no baggage next season. If the draft, or someone on the team now, develops then we can say bye, bye Max.

Max is not worth the money, but he wasn't worth the money last year and we still had a pretty decent season.

Also, bye bye Kemo. I don't think we will keep him now. I see us keeping, in addition to Max, Essex (he can cover 4 positions on the line and will be cheap) and Colon ( mostly because he is a RFA instead of a UFA).

For the record, the Steelers should have franchised Mitch Berger.:coffee:

Galax Steeler
02-20-2009, 04:35 AM
i just hope we can get a lt to groom or get starks to a contract.. b/c i don't want his ass 2 be tagged 3 yrs in a row

I am not a 100% sure but I don't think you can tag the same guy three times.

Rick5895
02-20-2009, 05:16 AM
This was a move they had to make. Although art 8.9 mil thats a bit pricey, but he is a decent player and we need to have the continuity on the line. Keeping a player who played well through two super bowl titles isn't a bad thing.
Now they can focus on other players such as Harrison.

Steel_Bus_24
02-20-2009, 05:39 AM
Too much fffing money for anyone on that OLine!...Im tired of him having a steel grip on our FO's balls:mad:...........when Ben is being slowly Beaten to Death:banging:


Not to mention how many times those guys got pushed back like wimps in short yardage situations.....hell the running game in general.
I mean these guys weren't just awful at pass blocking but the run blocking was down right pathetic at times too.


Thats why I cherish this SB win so much.

mesaSteeler
02-20-2009, 06:49 AM
NFL from the sidelines

After hobnobbing around the NFL in the press boxes and sidelines, sports reporter Dale Lolley will let you know the insider scoop.
http://nflfromthesidelines.blogspot.com/2009/02/w.html

Thursday, February 19, 2009
Why tag Starks again?

The Steelers made the decision to put the franchise tag on left tackle Max Starks Thursday, one year after placing the transition tag on Starks.

Many will look at it and wonder why the team felt the need to tag a guy for a second time, particularly one who hasn't gone into either of the past two seasons as a starter.

But the Steelers don't like to see their options limited.

And looking around the offensive tackle prospects available in free agency and the draft, there was no way the Steelers could afford to lose Starks.

With five offensive linemen set to hit the open market including restricted free agent Willie Colon the Steelers also couldn't afford to lose the player who was their best offensive linemen by the end of the 2008 season.

At 27, Starks still has his best football ahead of him as well.

The team will try to work out a new deal with Starks to keep him in Pittsburgh long term, but they wanted to protect themselves against another team swooping in and signing him next week.

The team also considered tagging cornerback Bryant McFadden, but the cost of that was nearly $10 million. Plus, while they have three NFL-quality cornerbacks, they had no other options at left tackle.

MasterOfPuppets
02-20-2009, 07:17 AM
The team will try to work out a new deal with Starks to keep him in Pittsburgh long term, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO........:banging: ...since when is mediocrity exceptable ??? if they giet a deal done with him, that means there stuck with a mediocre player for at least 3-4 years !!! if smith doesn't get hurt, they wouldn't be trying to hard to sign him, long term, if even at all. he didn't play that bad, but i don't think his level of play was anything worth feeling, satisfied that he's the future franchise tackle !!! they might as well throw the freakin cash at colon and sign him for another 5 while there at it.

lilyoder6
02-20-2009, 08:36 AM
I am not a 100% sure but I don't think you can tag the same guy three times.

i know u can .. but then the 20% role comes into affect after u franchise a player yr after yr.. we got lucky by transitioning him last yr,, but if we would franchise him next yr.. he get the top 5 avg plus 20%

SteelMember
02-20-2009, 09:06 AM
NFL from the sidelines

But the Steelers don't like to see their options limited.

And looking around the offensive tackle prospects available in free agency and the draft, there was no way the Steelers could afford to lose Starks.

The team will try to work out a new deal with Starks to keep him in Pittsburgh long term, but they wanted to protect themselves against another team swooping in and signing him next week.

:huh: I've heard this somewhere...



That's a pretty steep price for any team that may have had any inerest before. So it's just another high priced insurance policy so they don't come up empty handed. He is our best option, so they made it difficult for anyone else to pluck him away. :noidea:



And for those who may not have heard, jordan gross re-signed with carolina. He was arguably the best UFA at left tackle.
Gross, Carolina's first-round draft pick in 2003, played last season under the franchise tag in a one-year, $7.45 million deal. His new contract makes him one of the NFL's highest-paid offensive lineman.
signed All-Pro left tackle Jordan Gross to a six-year deal that's worth more than $30 million in the first three seasons.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80ed19f4&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

KeiselPower99
02-20-2009, 09:22 AM
Didnt we just win the Super Bowl? And after which everyone was praising Colbert?? He knows what he is doing let the man work.

steelpride12
02-20-2009, 09:44 AM
I feel Starks has earned his $8 Mil a season. He has played and won both Super Bowls and wins in a competition against Smith due to age and injury history. Smith has had nagging back problems for two seasons now and is above 30 years of age, where Starks is only 27 and still has room to improve.

GBMelBlount
02-20-2009, 10:48 AM
yeah.....thats why they're paying an average, should be backup, tackle , top tier money..... i could understand it if starks was the only mistake on the steelers line....but damn...not one of them bums should realisticly be starters, let alone all 5 on the same team !!! so spare me the 2 or 3 steps ahead crap....if it were true, we wouldn't be discussing this....and we sure as hell wouldn't have been discussing sean mahan last year...:coffee:

Stop being a Steeler hater damnit, we won the Super bowl didn't we? :chuckle:

Steeldude
02-20-2009, 11:14 AM
the steelers wouldn't be in this problem if they addressed the O-line years ago. now they have to pay an average tackle a whopping 8+ mil.

did the steelers really think some team was going to pay him "top 5" tackle money?

Pi Kapp Steeler
02-20-2009, 11:17 AM
the steelers wouldn't be in this problem if they addressed the O-line years ago. now they have to pay an average tackle a whopping 8+ mil.

did the steelers really think some team was going to pay him "top 5" tackle money?

Well the best thing we can h ope for is that some team bites and takes him, and we get the 2 draft picks. Best case scenario. We gotta advertise him well to other teams.

Starting on 2 superbowl winning teams is a good start

revefsreleets
02-20-2009, 11:26 AM
the steelers wouldn't be in this problem if they addressed the O-line years ago. now they have to pay an average tackle a whopping 8+ mil.

did the steelers really think some team was going to pay him "top 5" tackle money?

I didn't think about that...yes, there are certainly teams that will overcompensate. Hell, Al Davis will probbaly offer him 15 mil a year simply because he started on 2 SB teams.

Maybe we SHOULD look at locking up Smith after all???

BlastFurnace
02-20-2009, 11:32 AM
Well the best thing we can h ope for is that some team bites and takes him, and we get the 2 draft picks. Best case scenario. We gotta advertise him well to other teams.

Starting on 2 superbowl winning teams is a good start

I hope no-one signs him, but us.

Honestly, what are you guys that hope that Starks ends up elsewhere hoping for? Marvel, Essex, unknown FA, Rookie, Tony Hills?

If it's Marvel...he's finished.

If it's Essex, he's an unknown commodity.

If it's a unknown FA...any LT worth his salt will commmand big dollars as well and won't know our schemes.

If it's a rookie, good luck Ben.

Tony Hills, from every single Steelers Beat Writer out there...is very raw and not very strong (NFL Strength).

Max was solid last year. The jail breaks to get to Ben did not come from Max's side.

Give Colbert & the coaching staff a little bit of credit here. You don't spend $8 Mllion+ just because you are desparate and backed into a corner. You spend $8 Million+ on a player who is solid and can play. If they are doing this out of desparation, they lose more players and they compound the problem. Colbert is smarter than that.

LT's just don't grow on tree's.

SteelMember
02-20-2009, 11:37 AM
did the steelers really think some team was going to pay him "top 5" tackle money?

You can never predict what the other 31 teams will do. There are always going to be those peeking over the fence to see the color of "your" grass. At least now the FO office is saying, "if you want him, it's gonna cost you a little more". :noidea:

I know it's a lot of money, but there were only a few other affordable options in FA, and 1st round draft picks usually need a little grooming...they don't come very cheap either.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 12:22 PM
the steelers wouldn't be in this problem if they addressed the O-line years ago. now they have to pay an average tackle a whopping 8+ mil.

did the steelers really think some team was going to pay him "top 5" tackle money?

I agree. They could have drafted Duane Brown or Anthony Collins last year, or Joe Staley, Tony Ugoh a couple years ago.

I thought some team was gonna pay Starks $6-7million a season.......I just hoped it wouldnt be the Steelers. :doh:

CaliStillersFan
02-20-2009, 12:33 PM
I was laughing at Cincinnati when I heard they used their franchise tag on their kicker, until I heard that we tagged Starks. I can't figure out what was the dumber move here. A team uses a tag to prevent them from being snagged on the FA market, what team would have wanted Starks? And for those of you that said you don't want to see 5 new faces on the line next year, why not? They can't possibly play much worse and in time they would grow together. Starks sucked every year including this one and know between this year and next the Steelers are going to pay him $15 million? What a waste of money!!! I will forgive the Rooney's for this one, it's their mistake in a LONG LONG time.

BlastFurnace
02-20-2009, 12:39 PM
I was laughing at Cincinnati when I heard they used their franchise tag on their kicker, until I heard that we tagged Starks. I can't figure out what was the dumber move here. A team uses a tag to prevent them from being snagged on the FA market, what team would have wanted Starks? And for those of you that said you don't want to see 5 new faces on the line next year, why not? They can't possibly play much worse and in time they would grow together. Starks sucked every year including this one and know between this year and next the Steelers are going to pay him $15 million? What a waste of money!!! I will forgive the Rooney's for this one, it's their mistake in a LONG LONG time.

Again...what was your solution last year...when...we won the Super Bowl with Max protecting Ben's blind side.

What is your solution...a realistic solution...next year. Even if Jordan Gross is free, he wasn't coming to Pittsburgh.

Starks did not suck last year. The only way to come to that conclusion is if you didn't watch the games. Was he the 2nd coming of Orlando Pace...No...but he certainly didn't suck. He only gave up 4.5 sacks. That isn't too shabby.

BozMan
02-20-2009, 12:45 PM
Ugh... don't like this move at all...

Edman
02-20-2009, 12:54 PM
Starks earned his money. It's a little expensive for a player of his caliber, but he was HARDLY the problem on the Offensive Line.

Max Starks gets a bum rap for getting replaced by Colon at RT. But Max has played better at LT in one year better than Colon has ever played at RT in two seasons. Besides, Starks came out of Florida as a Left Tackle.

rbryan
02-20-2009, 01:20 PM
If this is the "worst move" the FO makes this year I'll be happy. Anyone who thinks we should have tagged BMac is even more delusional.

Is Starks worth 8 mill....no. Can we afford to let him walk.......hell no. So we overpay him by 2 or 3 mill next year, for those of you so down on Starks, thats still better than giving him a 4-5 year deal that will cost way more in the long run.

The FO neglected the OL for too many years and this is the price you pay for that. Funny how the majority of people complaining about this are the same ones who thought Mendy and Sweed were a great decision last year.....You can't have it both ways..

X-Terminator
02-20-2009, 01:28 PM
I'm not sure I like this move - that's a lot of scratch for a mediocre OT. But they really didn't have many options - Gross is off the market and Smith is just too old and too injury-prone to re-sign. Not including whoever they draft, we're looking at pretty much the same guys next year, folks.

BlastFurnace
02-20-2009, 01:41 PM
Iwe're looking at pretty much the same guys next year, folks.

Let's hope for the same results.

steelreserve
02-20-2009, 01:57 PM
Well, there goes McFadden.

How could they possibly think shoveling another boatload of money at this bum was a good idea?

BlastFurnace
02-20-2009, 02:12 PM
Well, there goes McFadden.

How could they possibly think shoveling another boatload of money at this bum was a good idea?

There is a plan for the defense If McFadden leaves....and that's still an IF.

If you were doing the planning at LT, what would be your realistic solution? Gross wasn't coming here.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 02:37 PM
If you were doing the planning at LT, what would be your realistic solution? .

1. Let Starks go and receive a compensatory pick for him next season.
2. Target a less expensive, shorter term solution like Tra Thomas, Marvel Smith, John St. Clair
3. See how the draft unfolds and if needed, look to move up and get Eben Britton or William Beatty in the draft.
4. Sign Trai Essex as depth, let Kemo go in FA, move Willie Colon inside to LG.
5. Use the money not spent on Starks to either sign a veteran center like Jason Brown or a DE like Igor Olshansky.
-We just got younger and better on the O line by signing 2 guys for the price of Starks and picked up a draft pick.

2009 O line would look like:

LT- Tra Thomas
LG-Willie Colon
C- Jason Brown (or Hartwig)
RG Kendall Simmons (or Hartwig)
RT- Essex (or Hills or Beatty)

2010 O line would look like :

LT William Beatty (or Britton)
LG Willie Colon
C Jason Brown (or Hartwig)
RG Kendall Simmons
RT Tony Hills (or Tra Thomas, Marvel Smith, Jon St. Clair)

and.......I might have saved enough $$ to either sign McFadden or extend Heath Miller's contract.

The_WARDen
02-20-2009, 02:41 PM
If this is the "worst move" the FO makes this year I'll be happy. Anyone who thinks we should have tagged BMac is even more delusional.

Is Starks worth 8 mill....no. Can we afford to let him walk.......hell no. So we overpay him by 2 or 3 mill next year, for those of you so down on Starks, thats still better than giving him a 4-5 year deal that will cost way more in the long run.

The FO neglected the OL for too many years and this is the price you pay for that. Funny how the majority of people complaining about this are the same ones who thought Mendy and Sweed were a great decision last year.....You can't have it both ways..

maybe that they took care of the Oline again, they can draft another skill position player in the 1st 3 rounds.

:doh:

steelreserve
02-20-2009, 02:56 PM
There is a plan for the defense If McFadden leaves....and that's still an IF.

If you were doing the planning at LT, what would be your realistic solution? Gross wasn't coming here.

Never thought he would. Going after the big-name linemen is usually expensive and unrealistic anyway. However, in this case, we've managed to pay big-name dollars but only get a middle-of-the-road player in return. My plan would've been:

1) Sign a mid-level/journeyman OT (which, when it comes down to it, is what Starks is) for half of what we're paying Starks now, or less.
2) Re-sign Smith, hopefully for cheaper, and hope he makes it through the season.
2a) As long as we get either #1 or #2 done, fine, if both, that's great too.
3) Have Hills, Essex (assuming we can get him back) around as backups in case anything goes wrong.
4) Draft one or two guys this year so we don't have the same problem three years down the road.

That would seem to save us millions of dollars without sacrificing anything talent-wise.

BlastFurnace
02-20-2009, 03:49 PM
Whether we like it or not, what Max will get....once we renegotiate the deal with him will be market value for a starter.

Vernon Carey, RT with the Dolphins, contract is worth $42 million over six years.

steelreserve
02-20-2009, 04:03 PM
Whether we like it or not, what Max will get....once we renegotiate the deal with him will be market value for a starter.

That's what I'm hoping for, is that we'll work some longer-term deal out and not for such an absurd amount of money. Of course, I thought $6.9 million was ridiculous to pay this guy, since he hadn't really proven anything other than he was a very large man. And still hasn't. So locking that in over the long term won't do much to please me, other than the fact that it's not $10 million.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-20-2009, 06:45 PM
So true, we thought $7mil a season was too much and now its the going rate for RT Vernon Carey. My only hope is that Starks wants $8mil a season and the Steelers dont get a long term deal worked out, so he is only tagged for another season.

I bet we could get a decent LT like Tra Thomas and a RT like Jon Stinchcomb for $8mil a year total.

steelreserve
02-20-2009, 07:29 PM
I bet we could get a decent LT like Tra Thomas and a RT like Jon Stinchcomb for $8mil a year total.

That's the thing. People throw up their hands and say, "well, look at how much Jordan Gross signed for -- there's nothing else we could've done!" Not true. Going into the free agent market for a lineman does not mean your options are limited to spending $40 million to sign the #1 free agent in the league who just won the Better Blocker Than Superman, King Kong And The Incredible Hulk Combined Award, or to throw the same amount of money at someone less talented.

You'll get guys like Hartwig a lot more often than Hartings (and a lot more cheaply). And in our current state, that's all we need to do to improve some. We really could've gotten a 2-for-1 with that kind of cash. You can still get a very good lineman for $5 million if you're lucky, and a serviceable one for half that.

lilyoder6
02-20-2009, 07:34 PM
but if u only need a pos or 2 y not go after the best 1 out there...

but if i was a franchise that was in dire need of helo evry where,, i would use money like that and go out and get quality players

MasterOfPuppets
02-20-2009, 10:26 PM
Stop being a Steeler hater damnit, we won the Super bowl didn't we? :chuckle:
i'm not being a hater....i'm just being realistic. the reality of it is the the F.O. has been ignoring BOTH lines for years, and now they have to pay a guy who should be a backup, top dollar...:noidea: ....so how is that being 2 or 3 steps ahead ? if they don't soon score some solid Dline guys, we'll be raising hell soon enough about not being able to stop the run...or run the ball :popcorn:

Steeldude
02-21-2009, 01:23 AM
masterofpuppets, i think GBM was being sarcastic.

steel-EERS
02-21-2009, 01:08 PM
most of the time what the front office does matches what I would have done, I like Starks, is he the perfect left tackle, no. but he is young enough and and productive enough that you have to lock him up. hopefully they can get a long term deal done that reduces the peryear salery enough to help get some others under raps. IMO the biggest problems in the OL was at the guard positions. Gotta upgrade them. Probably draft a center and start them out at guard would make sense. maybe draft anoher right tackle prospect in the 2nd or third. maybe entertain moving our current right tackle inside.

markymarc
02-21-2009, 11:53 PM
i'm not being a hater....i'm just being realistic. the reality of it is the the F.O. has been ignoring BOTH lines for years, and now they have to pay a guy who should be a backup, top dollar...:noidea: ....so how is that being 2 or 3 steps ahead ? if they don't soon score some solid Dline guys, we'll be raising hell soon enough about not being able to stop the run...or run the ball :popcorn:

Very good points. While I understand there wasn't any other viable options out there for LT at this point I hate this move just like I did last year with tagging Starks. Starks is an average LT at best IMO. And see the other problem is what if the FO does work out a long term deal with Starks. Great then that means we have an average LT protecting Ben's blind side for how many years. Also, we now have 4 of the 5 starting OL players back. Does anyone believe that is really improving our very weak OL? Plus the other issue you run into is with this tag on Starks you now run a big risk of losing McFadden. Don't like this move at all.

paw-n-maul-u
02-22-2009, 09:40 PM
I have to disagree with you Master of Puppys,

Sure ... at first glance, it looks as if the Starks tag is another WTF!? knee jerk reaction.

But, it also gives us a starting LT that has started two superbowls

It seals the deal on Marvel Smith being gone ... which is a significant cap help

It allows us to peep Starks one more year at LT and avoid all of the ridiculous back taxes on a big deal that might get us swallowed up.

Did anyone see what vernon carey just got!?!?!?!?!?!? EXXXXXACTLY ... 7 mil a year.

This gives us flexibility in the draft. What I'm trying to say is ... we don't have to pull the trigger on Duane Brown.

I don't LOVE the deal, and I don't even really LIKE it ... but I do not at all disagree or hate it.

They steelers, like all teams, have a few warts (less than most) ... not every player on the team is going to be a stalwart at their position, but we have proved that we can win with starks ... thats all that it ever really comes down to.

he has upside, starting experience, and is still extremely young. Who knows, in two years we might be sending Bill Cowher a thank you letter for another great deal in the third round

... seriously people ... a 2004 3rd round pick has started two superbowls for us. its not that terrible. I'm sure a lot of teams would LOVE to have this as their biggest thing to bitch about