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lamberts-lost-tooth
03-01-2009, 01:25 PM
DID THE PATRIOTS TURN DOWN A FIRST-ROUND PICK?
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal : Sunday, March 1, 2009 2:38 AM

I'm not in the habit of linking to ESPN videos, but the Chris Mortensen video posted tonight is too stunning to miss. (The information is stunning, not Mort's visage.)

Mort reports that the Patriots turned down a first- and third-round pick from the Bucs in a potential three-way trade that would have sent Matt Cassel to Denver and Jay Cutler to the Bucs. Instead, the Patriots chose a second-round pick from the Chiefs.

This defies all logic and belief, no matter how close you think Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli are.

The only explanation I can come up with, and this is admittedly pure speculation, is that New England's deal with the Chiefs was already agreed to. Mike Vrabel, after all, was in Kansas City for Friday. It's possible the terms of the Cassel deal were done before the Bucs and Broncos tried to jump in.

In that scenario, though, it's unclear why the other teams ever thought they had any chance. There was a brief window Saturday, after Adam Schefter initially reported the trade, when the deal appeared to be in question.

"Mystery teams" were mentioned on air as possibly getting involved, but the move quickly became official 20 minutes later. We know who those teams were now, but there are so many other unanswered questions.

Was the Chiefs trade ever truly close to falling apart? When was the deal agreed to? Was Cassel's contract hopes another piece to the puzzle?

Here's to hoping that better reporters than I can solve some of this mystery in the coming days. In the meantime, I'm going to sleep.

http://blogs.nbcsports.com/home/archives/2009/03/did-the-patriots-turn-down-a-f-1.html

Mods please move this if it is too much like previous post

thanx

tony hipchest
03-01-2009, 01:32 PM
the theory i heard is that the patriots usually pay the majority of their players below market value.

bringing in an unproven rookie on a multi-million $$$ contract could be seen as a distraction and point of dissention amongst the veterans on the team.

in other words its just something belichick would prefer not to deal with in the name of locker room chemistry.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-01-2009, 01:39 PM
the theory i heard is that the patriots usually pay the majority of their players below market value.

bringing in an unproven rookie on a multi-million $$$ contract could be seen as a distraction and point of dissention amongst the veterans on the team.

in other words its just something belichick would prefer not to deal with in the name of locker room chemistry.

I understand that...I'm not real big on top ten 1st rounders myself...but the Bucs 1st rounder is at pick #19....which is considered a PRIME trading point.

Logic would dictate you take the Round 1 and Round 3...trade down from #19 and have the second round you covet and 2 more picks ..both possibly in the 3rd round.

..OR trade them for next year.

steelreserve
03-01-2009, 02:11 PM
Anyone who offered more than a hard kick in the nutsack in exchange for Cassel is pretty much mentally retarded.

RoethlisBURGHer
03-01-2009, 02:20 PM
if the bucs would have done that their fo is a bunch of morons and the patriots are morons for not accepting

Well who do the Buccs have to play QB?

Garcia is gone.

Luke McCown? :toofunny:

Cutler has a good arm, and he has the skillset to be a dominate QB. The Buccs would get thier first franchise QB in ages...I would take Cutler over trading up to get Stafford or (dirty) Sanchez.

BrandonCarr39
03-01-2009, 03:04 PM
This story is probably BS-Gruden/Allen is no longer with the Bucs, so I'm sure their FO's philosophies of giving away picks for unproven players is no longer there. And Belichick may be a cheater, but he's not bone-stupid.

The Patriot
03-01-2009, 03:18 PM
the theory i heard is that the patriots usually pay the majority of their players below market value.

bringing in an unproven rookie on a multi-million $$$ contract could be seen as a distraction and point of dissention amongst the veterans on the team.

in other words its just something belichick would prefer not to deal with in the name of locker room chemistry.

And it's smart. Have you noticed that the teams that are consistently bad year after year get the top draft picks, yet still remain consistently bad.

devilsdancefloor
03-01-2009, 03:24 PM
i really think there is more going on than what we see.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-01-2009, 03:33 PM
This story is probably BS-Gruden/Allen is no longer with the Bucs, so I'm sure their FO's philosophies of giving away picks for unproven players is no longer there. And Belichick may be a cheater, but he's not bone-stupid.

Actually Adam Shefler from NFL.com is reporting the same thing.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-01-2009, 03:34 PM
And it's smart. Have you noticed that the teams that are consistently bad year after year get the top draft picks, yet still remain consistently bad.

Smart .....but not correct in this case since the Bucs draft at #19

lilyoder6
03-01-2009, 03:39 PM
i am suprised as this... i thought that the pats would want the extra picks 2 replace that old ass defense

tony hipchest
03-01-2009, 03:57 PM
Smart .....but not correct in this case since the Bucs draft at #19heres my thinking-

they would have 2 first round picks that could eat up to $4 mil in cap space.

they have about 30 of their 53 who arent under contract after 09.

they seem more comfortable with experienced veteran players (seau, welker, moss, harrison) as opposed to draft picks and rookies (c. jackson, l. maroeny)

they already will have a ton of picks this year and almost seem burdened by having to deal with so many. wasnt it 2 years ago that only 1-2 rookies even made their squad?

steelerdave1969
03-01-2009, 04:03 PM
i really think there is more going on than what we see.

My thoughts exactly :applaudit:

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-01-2009, 04:09 PM
heres my thinking-

they would have 2 first round picks that could eat up to $4 mil in cap space.

they have about 30 of their 53 who arent under contract after 09.

they seem more comfortable with experienced veteran players (seau, welker, moss, harrison) as opposed to draft picks and rookies (c. jackson, l. maroeny)

they already will have a ton of picks this year and almost seem burdened by having to deal with so many. wasnt it 2 years ago that only 1-2 rookies even made their squad?

Agreed and good points....but.....

That is why you trade for future picks...take the bucs first round..trade down for a 2nd this year and a 2nd or third next year.

Thats why they have a draft trade value chart...so that you DONT waste picks.

tony hipchest
03-01-2009, 04:23 PM
Agreed and good points....but.....

That is why you trade for future picks...take the bucs first round..trade down for a 2nd this year and a 2nd or third next year.

Thats why they have a draft trade value chart...so that you DONT waste picks.definitely, which brings me to this most logical reason. maybe we have just witnessed why pioli was so valuable to the patriots in the past and how he will be so valuable to the cheifs in the future.

it pains me to admit that no team has been better in trading players for picks/ picks for players/ acquiring comp picks by letting free agens leave/ and moving up and down in the draft, than the patriots in the past 8-9 years.

maybe its so simple that pioli was the mastermind of all of these (trading for dillon, welker, moss. dumping branch. getting sd's 2nd rounder for this year, selling th e ravens the pick to get boller, etc...).

perhaps if patriot pioli, would never let KC pioli get away with such a deal. perhaps floyd reese simply dropped the ball.

now that the piolichick tandem is split, maybe we will see that part of their long term success was from the deals their fron office was able to complete to get 'chick the tools he needed to work with.

the patriots brains may have just left the building.

MasterOfPuppets
03-01-2009, 04:28 PM
heres my thinking-

they would have 2 first round picks that could eat up to $4 mil in cap space.

they have about 30 of their 53 who arent under contract after 09.

they seem more comfortable with experienced veteran players (seau, welker, moss, harrison) as opposed to draft picks and rookies (c. jackson, l. maroeny)

they already will have a ton of picks this year and almost seem burdened by having to deal with so many. wasnt it 2 years ago that only 1-2 rookies even made their squad? so i guess goodell was doin them a favor then by taking away one of thier 1st rd picks last year ....:huh:

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-01-2009, 04:52 PM
definitely, which brings me to this most logical reason. maybe we have just witnessed why pioli was so valuable to the patriots in the past and how he will be so valuable to the cheifs in the future.

it pains me to admit that no team has been better in trading players for picks/ picks for players/ acquiring comp picks by letting free agens leave/ and moving up and down in the draft, than the patriots in the past 8-9 years.

maybe its so simple that pioli was the mastermind of all of these (trading for dillon, welker, moss. dumping branch. getting sd's 2nd rounder for this year, selling th e ravens the pick to get boller, etc...).

perhaps if patriot pioli, would never let KC pioli get away with such a deal. perhaps floyd reese simply dropped the ball.

now that the piolichick tandem is split, maybe we will see that part of their long term success was from the deals their fron office was able to complete to get 'chick the tools he needed to work with.

the patriots brains may have just left the building.

I think you may be right...If Belichik was such genious...then why wasnt he one in Cleveland?

I am still suspicious of behind the door dealings with these two cheaters...but I can definately entertain the thought that Belichik got "Pi-jacked".

tony hipchest
03-01-2009, 05:05 PM
I think you may be right...If Belichik was such genious...then why wasnt he one in Cleveland?

I am still suspicious of behind the door dealings with these two cheaters...but I can definately entertain the thought that Belichik got "Pi-jacked".im definitely suspicious too, and then i ask myself....

would patriot pioli ever have given up both cassell and vrabel for nothing but a 2nd round pick? i doubt it.

then i ask myself could anyone but pioli snag randy moss for nothing but a 3-4 and still have the werewithall to give up a 2nd and a 4th for w. welker (in the same season!?!?!)

i do have to wonder if pioli knew vrabel may have been pegged to be a cap casualty this year, as far back as a year ago.

whatever it is, its seems pioli had the patriots thinking he was doing them a favor.

The Patriot
03-01-2009, 06:02 PM
im definitely suspicious too, and then i ask myself....

would patriot pioli ever have given up both cassell and vrabel for nothing but a 2nd round pick? i doubt it.

then i ask myself could anyone but pioli snag randy moss for nothing but a 3-4 and still have the werewithall to give up a 2nd and a 4th for w. welker (in the same season!?!?!)

i do have to wonder if pioli knew vrabel may have been pegged to be a cap casualty this year, as far back as a year ago.

whatever it is, its seems pioli had the patriots thinking he was doing them a favor.

You don't have to be a genius to be skeptical of a deal that has just about every fan in the league scratching their heads. What we got was roughly $19 million dollars in cap space for our backup QB and Vrabel who had one year left in his contract. The Chiefs obviously got the sweet end of the deal, but I think it's unlikely that the Pats are completely lost without Pioli. Otherwise we might have to hire you and everybody else on this forum who noticed the obvious one-sidedness of this deal.

Personally, I think the Pats are going after somebody.

AllD
03-01-2009, 06:16 PM
I think you may be right...If Belichik was such genious...then why wasnt he one in Cleveland?

I am still suspicious of behind the door dealings with these two cheaters...but I can definately entertain the thought that Belichik got "Pi-jacked".


Belichik minus his kicker, Brady, and the tuck rule = 0 SBs.

HughC
03-01-2009, 06:20 PM
I don't know, I think it was a simple case of New England taking the first firm offer that was on the table because they were in dire need of freeing up cap space so they could re-sign their own players and go after free agents. They could have held out for more, but Denver and/or Tampa Bay dropped the ball.

As far as not wanting a higher first round pick, didn't they take Mayo fairly high last year? Wilfork and Seymour were fairly early draft picks too if I recall correctly. Besides, if they didn't like the value at #12 or #19, they could surely find somebody to trade down with for other picks, even if it didn't add up to equal value on the 'draft value chart'.

Steelman16
03-01-2009, 06:21 PM
Personally, I think the Pats are going after somebody.

Who, though? LT? If they wanted LJ, they missed their chance.

I agree that there's something to this we haven't heard yet.

HughC
03-01-2009, 06:26 PM
Who, though? LT? If they wanted LJ, they missed their chance.

I agree that there's something to this we haven't heard yet.

Yeah, they freed up that money with something in mind.
I don't think it's a RB, I think they're content with their running-back-by-committee.
I'd say an OLB (to replace Vrabel) and a CB (to replace Samuel).

tony hipchest
03-01-2009, 06:45 PM
What we got was roughly $19 million dollars in cap space for our backup QB and Vrabel who had one year left in his contract. The Chiefs obviously got the sweet end of the deal, but I think it's unlikely that the Pats are completely lost without Pioli. Otherwise we might have to hire you and everybody else on this forum who noticed the obvious one-sidedness of this deal.

Personally, I think the Pats are going after somebody.ive already covered these bases and even suggested they may be a player for b. mcfadden (although i doubt they would be willing to pay him more htan what it woulda taken to keep ashanti samuel).

not outta the question though. (and im willing to bet theyd be the 1st team in line to snag a. smith for league minimum, too). :noidea:

Steeler in Carolina
03-01-2009, 06:46 PM
I'm not sold on Cassell, but I would think that you can get more than a 2nd round pick for him and Vrabel.

devilsdancefloor
03-01-2009, 06:48 PM
You don't have to be a genius to be skeptical of a deal that has just about every fan in the league scratching their heads. What we got was roughly $19 million dollars in cap space for our backup QB and Vrabel who had one year left in his contract. The Chiefs obviously got the sweet end of the deal, but I think it's unlikely that the Pats are completely lost without Pioli. Otherwise we might have to hire you and everybody else on this forum who noticed the obvious one-sidedness of this deal.

Personally, I think the Pats are going after somebody.

i just had a OMG OMG moment . Could they be looking to sign ray ray? belacheat likes those vet LB.

Steelman16
03-01-2009, 07:47 PM
Found an interesting thought on NBC:


COULD PATRIOTS MAKE BID FOR PEPPERS?
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal : Sunday, March 1, 2009 3:36 PM
Now that the Patriots have cleared Matt Cassel's cap number, what will they do with it? Some of the money will surely go to their secondary. They re-signed solid young safety James Sanders to a three-year deal Sunday, and have met with cornerbacks Leigh Bodden and Shawn Springs.

But New England may still have a larger move up their sleeve. They have four first-day draft picks to work with, which gives them flexibility for a possible trade.

Put this post under logical but wild speculation, but Panthers beat writer Darin Gantt thinks that trade could be for Julius Peppers. This has been a whisper on many lips for weeks.

Peppers wants to play for a 3-4 team, and said he had a few NFC teams and one AFC team in mind. Many believe the AFC squad was New England. Peppers' versatility would be an absolute perfect fit for Bill Belichick's defense. The one-time coach of Lawrence Taylor would know how to maximize Peppers' unique skill set.

The Patriots were hamstrung by Matt Cassel's cap number, and the Panthers are in the same boat with Peppers. New England may be the only team with the ammunition to pry Peppers away

:noidea:

lilyoder6
03-01-2009, 07:59 PM
Found an interesting thought on NBC:



:noidea:

could be a good move.. but it will cost them

and them having 4 1st day picks.. are they still counting rd 3 as 1st day even tho the 3rd rd took part on the 2nd day???

The Patriot
03-01-2009, 08:20 PM
i just had a OMG OMG moment . Could they be looking to sign ray ray? belacheat likes those vet LB.

God I hope not!

Even Cheatriot fans have standards.

Morgan
03-02-2009, 06:00 AM
First Round Draft choices demand 1st round money. 4 picks in the first 2 rounds is enough to try to sign with the rookie money pool, no sense making it 2 first rounders to boot, IMO.

But I'm sure the knob polishing that S.P. did for B.B. was part of it.

Or maybe Pioli know they were going to cut Vrabel for the cap room anyway, and he said, "Throw in Vrabel." That's not much of a favor, but a little one.

Godfather
03-02-2009, 09:10 AM
The Pats* turned down a first rounder because it's going to be taken away by the league office anyway!

revefsreleets
03-02-2009, 09:57 AM
Absolutely right that they turned it down because of the guaranteed money #3 comes with.

Unless there is an absolute iron clad stone cold lock of a player there, why pay the absurd amount of money for a player who may never perform up to expectations? There will be plenty of solid talent at #34 anyway...this was (and I hate to give the evil cheating empire credit) a smart move.

El-Gonzo Jackson
03-02-2009, 12:00 PM
Yeah, I remember some analysts saying that the #1 pick in the draft isnt a reward to make teams better..............but rather the rookie contract is a financial penalty for being such a bad team.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-02-2009, 12:22 PM
But you are all forgetting two things.

1) They can trade for a player for FUTURE picks...it takes away from the argument that they had too many picks this year and were worried about the cash.

2) The buccaneers were one of the teams involved in a willingness to trade a first round pick....and the #19 slot is a BEAUTIFUL pick to acquire. One of the best positions to trade for lower FUTURE picks or for a PLAYER outright. Heck...take the #19 for Cassell and trade it for Channing Crowder!!!


Just way to many ways to go other than a high 1st rounder...to justify not trading a player for full value. :noidea:

HughC
03-05-2009, 09:15 PM
Looks like Mortensen has admitted to a bit of sensationalizing in this story. Though certainly not the first time espn has twisted rumor and opinion in to facts, this may be the first time they have admitted doing so.

Cutler, coach must work it out (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=mortensen_chris&id=3952535)

On Tim Graham's AFC East blog on Sunday, I speculated about the Cassel deal, including the source of the leaks. I framed it as speculation without real foundation, but it seemingly has mushroomed into fact when it is not. Leaks happen in the business. I'd be out of work if they didn't. Why I participated in speculating about the source of the leak is so hypocritical I can't stand myself.

Bottom line, it isn't fair to Belichick or McDaniels to speculate how something confidential became public. I could have speculated more logically, if you really think about it. The only thing I'll do now is say that the Broncos were na´ve if they believed that a 24-hour run at Cassel would remain out of the public domain.

Ishkabibble
03-06-2009, 08:36 PM
Hard to argue when they wound up with the #34 pick in exchange for a 2005 seventh rounder. Maybe Belichick could've got a 1st but an already-limited market was shrinking and some GMs weren't convinced about Cassel. On draft day, some team will offer their 2010 first-rounder cuz they "can't believe _______ is still on the board!"

BrandonCarr39
03-07-2009, 12:16 AM
The Pats have like 4 2nd rounders this year now?

Really-that's actually pretty good, especially considering how there were a ton of 2nd round gems last year. Belichick could draft OL, and maybe even Vince Wilfork's future replacement(assuming Wilfork will be seeing Albert Haynesworth type of money next year).

HughC
03-07-2009, 06:51 PM
The Pats have like 4 2nd rounders this year now?

Really-that's actually pretty good, especially considering how there were a ton of 2nd round gems last year. Belichick could draft OL, and maybe even Vince Wilfork's future replacement(assuming Wilfork will be seeing Albert Haynesworth type of money next year).

I could be wrong but I think it's three 2nd rounders: their own, one from the KC trade, and one from a trade with San Diego last year. They're also probably going to get a compensatory pick at the end of the 3rd round for losing Samuels to Philadelphia in free agency last year.

HughC
03-07-2009, 06:58 PM
Beeliprick hates his EX coords, he would give cassell to Pioli for free before he let Mcdaniels get a hold of him.

I don't know, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. He loves his ex-FO workers but he hates his ex-coaches? I could be wrong but I think he's pretty friendly with most everyone he used to work with (Parcells, Weis, Crennel, Saban, etc.) with the lone exception of Mangini. Mangini tried to talk some players and coaches in to going with him to the Jets when he was still in NE, then tried to work a deal with Deon Branch when Branch was holding out - and all that was before he turned the video taper in to NFL officials.

Muppet13
03-07-2009, 09:04 PM
I hope so!