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mesaSteeler
03-02-2009, 05:52 PM
Steeler Report: Interest in McFadden seems to be dwindling
http://www.examiner.com/x-2703-Pittsburgh-Sports-Examiner~y2009m3d2-Steeler-Report-Interest-in-McFadden-seems-to-be-dwindling
March 2, 2:49 AM
by Matt Pawlikowski, Pittsburgh Sports Examiner

PITTSBURGH - Bryant McFadden began his free-agent parade with a visit to Pittsburgh West on Sunday.

But for those expecting him spread his wings in the land of the Cardinal, think again. That's because sources in Arizona have said that Ken Whisenhut and co. are interested in McFadden as a backup to Rod Hood.

It doesn't matter that the coaching staff there is one he is familiar with. It doesn't matter that a few of his former Steeler comrades now don red and white. McFadden wants to start, and believes he is one of the better corners in the league.

Interestingly, Steelers director of football operations Kevin Colbert had said prior to the combine that signing McFadden was a priority.

But during the combo, McFadden opened his mouth and told the South Florida Sun Sentinal that although he would like to remain a Steeler, he also wants a big check.

Those are words the organization does not like to hear from a player, especially when it is second person.

Need a history lesson, look no further than Anthony Smith, whom many felt would be tendered a contract offer by the Steelers despite not suiting up in the post-season. His mouth put him in the dog house when he guaranteed a win over New England in 2007, and he never recovered from it, despite being a third round pick with much promise.

Back to McFadden, since the day he spoke to the Sentinal, the Steelers have been pretty mum about how talks are progressing, if there are any at all. Meaning, for him to return, it would have to come at the right price.

McFadden is good, but Shawn Springs, who was just released by the Redskins will command more interest.

He was expected to pay a visit to Denver after meeting with the Cards, but the Broncos signed former Dolphin Andre Goodman to a five-year, $25 million contract that includes over $10 million in guaranteed money.

The Lions were also reported to be in the running for McFadden's services, but they traded Jon Kitna to the Cowboys for Anthony Henry, while another team that reportedly had some interest, the Jets, traded for All-Pro Lito Sheppard from the Eagles.

Could it be his agent overestimated McFadden's real worth on the market?

One league source has said that the Patriots may have an interest, as Leigh Bodden left without a deal in hand on Sunday. Springs, 33, is expected to visit this week, but the source told Examiner that McFadden coming from a 3-4 defense would be a perfect fit to the Patriots secondary woes.

The Dolphins have yet to host any free-agents, so McFadden may get some interest there. It would make sense, as he is a native., but Bill Parcell's likes to build from the draft.

As for the Steelers if McFadden does sign elsewhere, Look for William Gay to take over the role, although the team may find a veteran corner at price they can afford.

One possible scenario has Bodden coming back to the city where he played college ball but he may command too high of a price, and unless some of the Steelers players such as Hines Ward can restructure their contracts, chances are he will get overpaid just like two other prominent No.2 picks Kendrell Bell and Anrwaan Randell El did in the past, thus ending his career as a Steeler

KeiselPower99
03-02-2009, 06:06 PM
His agent is Drew Rosenhaus. That right there is probably enough to keep his interest down.

Fire Haley
03-02-2009, 06:28 PM
How can he be losing out? He's just about the only one left.

Another FA CB resigns with old team.

Rams | Bartell agrees to terms
Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:50:31 -0800

Jim Thomas, of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, reports the St. Louis Rams have agreed to terms with unrestricted free-agent CB Ron Bartell (Rams) on a four-year deal worth $28 million. The contract includes $13.6 million in guarantees.

tony hipchest
03-02-2009, 06:31 PM
he will be a patriot. no way he will take less that $7 mil/ season, when all these scrubs are getting that much.

we cant/wont pay that. patriots will.

Preacher
03-02-2009, 06:51 PM
Must be a bit humbling to still be out there on the market when all the "name" players are pretty much locked up at this point.

I wonder what it takes for him to come back to the Steelers with his tail between his legs.

El-Gonzo Jackson
03-02-2009, 07:24 PM
he will be a patriot. no way he will take less that $7 mil/ season, when all these scrubs are getting that much.

we cant/wont pay that. patriots will.

Not really any scrubs. Bartell is a better cover guy than McFadden, so too with DeAngelo Hall, Namdi Asomgua, Dunta Robinson. IMO, the Ravens giving just under $7mil a season to Dominique Foxworth is hilarious.......that guy might easily fall into the category of scrub.

I can see McFadden getting $6mil + contract from somebody that needs a corner. Patriots, Browns, Lions, Packers, Broncos, Cardinals.

XxKnightxX
03-02-2009, 07:27 PM
His agent is Drew Rosenhaus. That right there is probably enough to keep his interest down.

I still remember the day I read on the BSPN ticker that BMac fired his former agent and that he hired Drew. That from the get go spelled out that he wouldn't be a good impression from the steelers since rosenhaus is sometimes the agent for the whiniest players around. Nothing agains drew since that's his job but his business is not popular with the steelers FO.

devilsdancefloor
03-02-2009, 07:43 PM
Well just maybe he will comeback. Maybe he over estimated or his agent his worth.:noidea:

tony hipchest
03-02-2009, 08:08 PM
Not really any scrubs. Bartell is a better cover guy than McFadden, so too with DeAngelo Hall, Namdi Asomgua, Dunta Robinson. IMO, the Ravens giving just under $7mil a season to Dominique Foxworth is hilarious.......that guy might easily fall into the category of scrub.

I can see McFadden getting $6mil + contract from somebody that needs a corner. Patriots, Browns, Lions, Packers, Broncos, Cardinals.with exception of the top 3 who signed for $7+ mil i regard all the others scrubs at the prices theyre signing for. but thats what the market will bear and dictates. :noidea: shame an average cb that will probably never sniff the pro-bowl now commands 7 mil/year.

even more scary is that next year w. gay will probably command more than the "modest" deal joselio got from the eagles.

I wonder what it takes for him to come back to the Steelers with his tail between his legs.

our only hope is all remaining teams just figuring he was a product of the system and low-balling him.

Pitt$burgh$teeler$
03-02-2009, 08:09 PM
If we dnt get mcfadden back or sign a cb in free agent i hope we draft sean smith!

TasmanianTroy271
03-02-2009, 08:33 PM
If we lose Bryant McFadden to Free Agency, what do you guys think are the chances of us bringing in Leigh Bodden are? Admittedly, he was a Brown, and did play on an 0-16 Lions team, but he did play at Duquesne, and seems to be a pretty good corner. Also, I know he had problems playing in Detroit's scheme, and was wondering if he would fit in ours.

I've been checking Rotoworld daily ever since the off-season started, and the only mentions of teams being interested is a visit with the Cards today and a 2 "reports" that the Lions and Broncos are "interested", but no visits. They even remark on the fact that if he were to sign with the Cards, he'd probably have to compete with Rod Hood to be a starter. With Dominique Foxworth, Deangelo Hall, Lito Sheppard, and Anthony Henry all being moved around or signing long deals, and Bryant's only interview as a "potential" starter, is there less of a market for McFadden then we thought?

This chump is stealing all my ideas, lol

El-Gonzo Jackson
03-02-2009, 09:12 PM
Nothing agains drew since that's his job but his business is not popular with the steelers FO.

You must mean he is not popular with people other than Kevin Colbert. This is what Colbert had to say about Rosenhaus.

"I like Drew. Honestly," Steelers' director of football operations Kevin Colbert said of Rosenhaus, who represents running back Najeh Davenport. "Drew has always been very up front. If we've had to do a deal with him, we've been able to do deals with the guy. I'm sure there are different opinions, but we've always had a great relationship. Negotiations are always going to be tough. He's going to do his job for his client, we're going to do our job for the team

http://www.rosenhaussports.com/news/news.php?newsid=91

tony hipchest
03-02-2009, 09:35 PM
drew is not the boogey man.

in 07, l. timmons was the 2nd 1st round draft pick rookie to sign (31st pick g. olsen of the nfc sb representative bears was the 1st).

in a time when rookies and their agents like to sit around and wait for the market value to be slotted, drew, kahn, and colbert sat down, cut through the bullshit, and hammered out a deal regardless of what the rest of the league "dictated".

SteelShooter
03-02-2009, 10:45 PM
Hmmmmmmmm, no comment.........................yet

paw-n-maul-u
03-02-2009, 11:19 PM
Yeah I don't think Rosenhaus is the monster either. He gets some bad publicity because of his clients ... but most of the clients that bing him the bad rep are also the ones that bring him the big bucks.

it is what it is. Rosenhaus has no vested interest in caring at all about where his player lands, as long as his player has a million dollar smile on his face, so does big drew, and unfortunately thats the name of the game. Rosenhaus just happens to be very very good at it.

I think other teams are downplaying the value of mcfadden to try and low ball him.

He's been injured on and off ... he has never started and finished a full season. going by starters, you could argue that he was the worst on the defense. I just think maybe we all are a bit over AND under estimating his value to some degree. if that makes any sense.

BrandonCarr39
03-02-2009, 11:32 PM
Yeah I don't think Rosenhaus is the monster either. He gets some bad publicity because of his clients ... but most of the clients that bing him the bad rep are also the ones that bring him the big bucks.

it is what it is. Rosenhaus has no vested interest in caring at all about where his player lands, as long as his player has a million dollar smile on his face, so does big drew, and unfortunately thats the name of the game. Rosenhaus just happens to be very very good at it.

I think other teams are downplaying the value of mcfadden to try and low ball him.

He's been injured on and off ... he has never started and finished a full season. going by starters, you could argue that he was the worst on the defense. I just think maybe we all are a bit over AND under estimating his value to some degree. if that makes any sense.

If anything-that choice he made over representing TO and his contract demands in Philly was a career mistake b/c it ruined his image. It may have helped his career b/c he was able to steal alot of the spotlight, but at the same time, he may have burned bridges and broken his trust with sports owners a bit after this fiasco.

Rosenhaus is no different from any other [bleep]agent. His bottom line is $$$$, $$$$, and $$$$. Nothing new here.

OX1947
03-02-2009, 11:48 PM
Rosenhaus is no different from any other [bleep]agent. His bottom line is $$$$, $$$$, and $$$$. Nothing new here.

Everyone's bottom line is money, even you if you had a chance. If someone came to you and paid you 1 million more then what you are getting paid now, your telling me you wouldn't take it? Not everyone is Jerome Bettis where they have outside interest that can cover their paycuts.

BrandonCarr39
03-03-2009, 12:06 AM
Rosenhaus is no different from any other [bleep]agent. His bottom line is $$$$, $$$$, and $$$$. Nothing new here.

Everyone's bottom line is money, even you if you had a chance. If someone came to you and paid you 1 million more then what you are getting paid now, your telling me you wouldn't take it? Not everyone is Jerome Bettis where they have outside interest that can cover their paycuts.

What I don't get is that sometimes the pay differences are ONLY JUST that-a MERE $1m more...but, en yet, is it really worth the move to another city(i.e. moving expenses, buying a new home, more taxes, more fees, etc) just for this much more? And not to mention too these guys are leaving assets behind(i.e. their older expensive homes) that might not even be sold at their FMV.

Pt being that alot of these guys just don't see the overall costs. If they end up going to a better team that has a much better chance at winning the Super Bowl, then more power to them, but for the most part, it's just not worth it to move around the country just for a few bucks more.

Steeldude
03-03-2009, 12:08 AM
that's outstanding news. no reason to waste cap money on an average CB. this leaves more room for harrison negotiations.

Galax Steeler
03-03-2009, 04:24 AM
I would love to see McFadden come back to Pittsburgh but only if the price was right.

Dino 6 Rings
03-03-2009, 07:17 AM
So if he goes to the Patriots...does he get to take the defensive playbook with him? Just Curious.

SteelMember
03-03-2009, 07:49 AM
This feels like one of those local stories to give us all a little hope, just to squash it moments later. :noidea:

I think B-mac will B-gone. :wave:

lilyoder6
03-03-2009, 08:13 AM
there was a lot of talk bout b-mac being the best cb in FA but all of these cb's that are being signed must impact b-mac... if he wants 2 go 2 NE 2 win another SB. he would have a better chance w/ the steelers since they have won 2 in 4 and the last time NE won was like 5 yrs ago

stlrtruck
03-03-2009, 08:15 AM
So if he goes to the Patriots...does he get to take the defensive playbook with him? Just Curious.

I think it's allowed under Goodell's guidelines to destroy the Steelers Franchise!

BlastFurnace
03-03-2009, 10:49 AM
C'mon Steelers....get in contact with that agent and see what we can do to get this ironed out!

I am beginning to get a little concerned over the Harrison discussions and am wondering if that if holding everything up.

Bigsteve332310
03-03-2009, 12:53 PM
rumor over on insidepittsburghsports.com is ..
Bryant McFadden visited the Arizona Cardinals today but since Friday, the Detroit Lions, New York Jets, and Denver Broncos have all dropped out of the McFadden sweepstakes.
Sources tell inside Pittsburgh Sports that the Steelers have made a new 5 year offer and are willing to move salary to bring McFadden back.

steelreserve
03-03-2009, 12:57 PM
So if he goes to the Patriots...does he get to take the defensive playbook with him? Just Curious.

Yeah, and we'd probably also have to give them draft picks for some reason.

Pitt$burgh$teeler$
03-03-2009, 01:40 PM
I believe mcfadden will be back all the other teams dropd out and the cardinals got other ppl to sign like boldin and warner so he want sign wit them leavin him no option but to take wat we offer and come back!

The_WARDen
03-03-2009, 02:41 PM
So if he goes to the Patriots...does he get to take the defensive playbook with him? Just Curious.

Under NFL rules, I believe that he is also allowed to take with him all video and audio footage of the Steelers practices, walk-throughs, and games.

meelanova
03-03-2009, 02:48 PM
Under NFL rules, I believe that he is also allowed to take with him all video and audio footage of the Steelers practices, walk-throughs, and games.

You know, Bellichek has it already, right?? :laughing:

mesaSteeler
03-04-2009, 06:49 AM
http://nflfromthesidelines.blogspot.com/2009/03/no-news-good-news-with-mcfadden.html

Wednesday, March 04, 2009
No news good news with McFadden
As we get deeper into the free agency period, nothing has happened to date with Steelers cornerback Bryant McFadden.

And in this case, no news is good news.

McFadden was in Arizona early this week, but has not come to a contract agreement with the Cardinals.

The longer he waits, fewer jobs there are available out there.

That said, I still don't expect to see McFadden back in Pittsburgh unless the Steelers are willing to do something drastic, such as release veteran cornerback Deshea Townsend.

But releasing Townsend would be a very unpopular move in the locker room, where he is one of the leaders.

It would also be very non-Steelers-like.

They just don't have a ton of cap space and unless McFadden is willing to accept something less than what he could get elsewhere - as guard Chris Kemoeatu did he won't be back.
Posted by Dale Lolley at 12:41 AM

stlrtruck
03-04-2009, 07:03 AM
You know, Bellichek has it already, right?? :laughing:

Yeah but remember Goodell made him burn those videos and notes. Now under Goodell's supervision he's allowed to start "collecting" again!

The_WARDen
03-04-2009, 08:31 AM
Yeah but remember Goodell made him burn those videos and notes. Now under Goodell's supervision he's allowed to start "collecting" again!

Yeah, and besides the old film was on VHS...the new stuff will be Blu-Ray and thus better quality for Belicheat.

revefsreleets
03-04-2009, 10:12 AM
I wonder why Bodden didn't sign with the Pats. Can the guy still ball?

I'd rather have B-Mac then the great unknown next year...but if it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense.

What I want to know is how in the Hell does the ageless wonder Townsend keep delivering?

steelreserve
03-04-2009, 11:37 AM
They just don't have a ton of cap space and unless McFadden is willing to accept something less than what he could get elsewhere - as guard Chris Kemoeatu did he won't be back.
Posted by Dale Lolley at 12:41 AM

I don't think he will. At least his agent certainly won't.

I would have no problems letting go of Townsend if it meant we could keep McFadden. But I think Townsend only counts for about $2 million a year, which is chump change compared to the amount he'll be asking for. I don't see that happening.

Also, why is everyone saying Kemoeatu gave us a discount and took less than he could've gotten somewhere else? Last I heard, the Jets offered him 4 years and $16 million, we gave him 5 years and $20 million. That's not less. Am I missing something?

SteelMember
03-04-2009, 11:57 AM
Also, why is everyone saying Kemoeatu gave us a discount and took less than he could've gotten somewhere else? Last I heard, the Jets offered him 4 years and $16 million, we gave him 5 years and $20 million. That's not less. Am I missing something?

Sorry to hijack b-mac's thread but this may be of some help.

Kemoeatu's contract is worth $20 million over five seasons and pays him a signing bonus of nearly $4 million, which is believed to be less than the Jets were offering. Nearly $6 million is guaranteed.

which without knowing the exacts tells me the signing bonus was outweighed (in his opinion) by the extra year of future security. :noidea:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/02/27/Kemoeatu.Steelers.ap/index.html

steelreserve
03-04-2009, 12:14 PM
which without knowing the exacts tells me the signing bonus was outweighed (in his opinion) by the extra year of future security. :noidea:


Yeah, NFL contracts are valued in funny ways, I guess. Hard to tell what "guarantee" or "job security" really means, so mostly it seems like "OMG signing bonus!!!"

Really, unless something weird happens, he's going to do about the same financially either way, so talking about a "hometown discount" is pretty much :jerkit:

Fire Haley
03-04-2009, 12:25 PM
Also, why is everyone saying Kemoeatu gave us a discount and took less than he could've gotten somewhere else? Last I heard, the Jets offered him 4 years and $16 million, we gave him 5 years and $20 million. That's not less. Am I missing something?

Guaranteed money.

Forget the 20 mill, the guaranteed money is only 6 mil of which 4 mil is a signing bonus. He can be released very cheaply any time over the next couple of seasons if they want.


Kemoeatu to stay with Steelers
February 27, 2009
The Jets are still in the market for Brandon Moore's replacement. Chris Kemoeatu has decided to stay with the Steelers, according to a source.

It was looking good for the Jets, who offered a four-year deal for $16.8 million (with roughly $7 million in guarantees), but the hulking guard took less to stay in Pittsburgh. He'll sign a five-year, $20 million deal, including about $6 million in guarantees.

Earlier today, the Steelers told Kemoeatu they were bowing out, but he kept calling them, seemingly determined to stay with the super Bowl champs

steelreserve
03-04-2009, 01:38 PM
Oh no, $7 million in guarantees against $6 million with a higher total value. What could you possibly be thinking to accept the latter offer?

Sure, it's possible to make a case that the marginally better guaranteed money makes the Jets' offer better, but you'd really be splitting hairs at that point. You could also point out reasons why our deal was better -- some people might disagree with you, but it's not like one offer was head and shoulders above the other.

I just don't think people ought to be acting like Kemo is a hero who made some great personal sacrifice in the name of loyalty. The deals were roughly the same, and either way he got a pay raise of almost 1,000%. If you ask me, he got mid-level pay for less than mid-level performance, so it worked out extremely well for him. Plus he doesn't have to play for the Jets.

Like I said, the difference is :jerkit:

Preacher
03-04-2009, 01:51 PM
Oh no, $7 million in guarantees against $6 million with a higher total value. What could you possibly be thinking to accept the latter offer?

Sure, it's possible to make a case that the marginally better guaranteed money makes the Jets' offer better, but you'd really be splitting hairs at that point. You could also point out reasons why our deal was better -- some people might disagree with you, but it's not like one offer was head and shoulders above the other.

I just don't think people ought to be acting like Kemo is a hero who made some great personal sacrifice in the name of loyalty. The deals were roughly the same, and either way he got a pay raise of almost 1,000%. If you ask me, he got mid-level pay for less than mid-level performance, so it worked out extremely well for him. Plus he doesn't have to play for the Jets.

Like I said, the difference is :jerkit:

A million less and a year LONGER contract is splitting hairs? They were both 4 million a year average, but with less possibility of making the full four million a year in Pittsburgh.

What you STILL haven't answered, is who we could have brought in at that price that would have been better. The Jets obviously thought Kemo was better than their guard. So who else was there?

steelreserve
03-04-2009, 03:00 PM
A million less and a year LONGER contract is splitting hairs? They were both 4 million a year average, but with less possibility of making the full four million a year in Pittsburgh.

Less possibility how? That's making all kinds of assumptions. In fact, any argument you could use to say one contract is better than the other makes all kinds of assumptions.

Have a career-ending injury right away? Then the Jets' offer is better. Play so badly you get cut after one season? Jets' offer is better. Play badly, but not badly enough to get cut? Steelers' offer is better. Play well for four years? It's a toss-up; Steelers' deal gives you more money, but you may "lose" a year of a big contract later if you were really playing lights-out. On the other hand, you may not. Or you may get the whole thing renegotiated or extended, and who knows how that'll turn out.

Do you worry about getting shuffled out after a losing season or a coaching change? Steelers' offer is better. Will your level of play (and potential for a big contract later) be helped more by one team than the other? Who knows. Is there a difference from one team to the other in the threshold at which you'd be cut? At which you'd get a raise? Again, who knows.

You could go through these situations for hours and still not touch on all of them. It's impossible to say which was the "better" contract unless you can see the future, and the fact is that no one knows. So while I appreciate the loyalty, I don't think Kemo really made a self-sacrificing move and gave anything up for us.

What you STILL haven't answered, is who we could have brought in at that price that would have been better. The Jets obviously thought Kemo was better than their guard. So who else was there?

The answer is: I don't care who we bring in. And I'm not looking for someone who's already established as "better" than Kemo. There is a certain floor of productivity that you're not likely to fall below no matter who you plug in, whether it's the cheapest veteran on the market or an untested rookie draft pick. We're not very far off that floor -- at least not far enough where falling to it presents a very big risk. Certainly not a risk worth spending $13 million to avoid. We made the same exact mistake with Starks.

So you get some balls, save the money and roll the dice. Which is basically what we did this year already, but without blowing all that cash. So you take a list of all the linemen who will take $4 million a year or less, throw a fricking dart at it, and you'll probably do roughly the same at left guard and left tackle, and have lots of money left over.

SteelMember
03-04-2009, 03:18 PM
So you take a list of all the linemen who will take $4 million a year or less, throw a fricking dart at it, and you'll probably do roughly the same at left guard and left tackle, and have lots of money left over.

So if you spend the same 4 mil a year on another player, how do you have "lots of money left over"?

and for the record, I just provided a qoute and a link I thought may help to answer your question. :wave:
As far as the "others" who brought up a home town discount...I am not familiar and don't care. The contract is signed and I don't feel the need to bash Kemo or the FO on this. :noidea:

I'm sorry I have contributed to this thread hi-jacking. :banging:

steelreserve
03-04-2009, 03:34 PM
So if you spend the same 4 mil a year on another player, how do you have "lots of money left over"?

You don't spend the same $4 million a year. That's why I said $4 million a year or less. This would be even easier to do with Starks, whose big payday -- to bring the thread slightly back on topic -- is a big reason we'll probably have to let McFadden go.

As far as the "others" who brought up a home town discount...I am not familiar and don't care. The contract is signed and I don't feel the need to bash Kemo or the FO on this. :noidea:

Also, for the record, my original intent was not to bash Kemo for taking the contract ... it was to bash the people who say he's giving us a discount. Because he's not really.

Anyway, this is definitely off the point of the thread, so I'll just say that I don't think we'll be able to keep McFadden because of all the money that we spent re-signing certain members of the line, and if you made me choose one or the other, I'd take McFadden. And I fear that this is just a taste of what we've bought ourselves, and we could see the exact same scenario play out again as we try to get other key re-signings done. It could cost us a key player or two in free agency, or we might have to release other players as a salary dump.

Preacher
03-04-2009, 05:27 PM
Less possibility how? That's making all kinds of assumptions. In fact, any argument you could use to say one contract is better than the other makes all kinds of assumptions.

Have a career-ending injury right away? Then the Jets' offer is better. Play so badly you get cut after one season? Jets' offer is better. Play badly, but not badly enough to get cut? Steelers' offer is better. Play well for four years? It's a toss-up; Steelers' deal gives you more money, but you may "lose" a year of a big contract later if you were really playing lights-out. On the other hand, you may not. Or you may get the whole thing renegotiated or extended, and who knows how that'll turn out.

Both of those contracts are going to be backloaded. To take a contract that is backloaded 5 years out vs. 4 years out puts quite a bit more at risk. You are right, injury can happen at any time. So you play with 1.5 (guessing) mill the first year on a 5 year contract, since you have an extra year to push out the money, instead of 3 mill the first year. It also asures that you will either be renegotiated or cut if there are cap problems because your last year will have a higher cap hit. Renegotiated means you will not receive that money.




The answer is: I don't care who we bring in. And I'm not looking for someone who's already established as "better" than Kemo. There is a certain floor of productivity that you're not likely to fall below no matter who you plug in, whether it's the cheapest veteran on the market or an untested rookie draft pick. We're not very far off that floor -- at least not far enough where falling to it presents a very big risk. Certainly not a risk worth spending $13 million to avoid. We made the same exact mistake with Starks.

So you get some balls, save the money and roll the dice. Which is basically what we did this year already, but without blowing all that cash. So you take a list of all the linemen who will take $4 million a year or less, throw a fricking dart at it, and you'll probably do roughly the same at left guard and left tackle, and have lots of money left over.


Think back to the first half of the season as compared to the second half of the season. The difference is telling. 1.2 sacks less per game (3.6 to 2.4).

That is a 33 percent reduction in sacks from the first half of the year. What changes were made? Starks was put in instead of Smith and Stapleton instead of Simmons.

So either Starks and Stapleton represented upgrades in those positions, or the consistency of a line playing together finally starting coming to fruition.

If you split the season into four plus playoffs (4 games per quarter, 3 games in playoffs) you get this average.

4.25 sacks first four games

3.25 Next four

1.75 3rd section

3.25 Last four

2.33 Playoffs.
______________

Now, remember that Smith was injured in week 5. Which means Starks took over during the first game of the second section. Simmons was injured in week 4.

Which means that with the addition of Starks and Stapleton, our sack rate decreased immediately by a full sack per game, and continued to decrease another sack and a half in next section of four games.

The last four games saw it increase again, but that section included good defenses such as Tennessee, Ravens, and somewhat Dallas.

The playoffs saw it go down again.


All this to say that the statistics bare out that this line got progressively better through the year, and that was WITH Stapleton.

There is NO WAY you can just plop ANY person in there and get the same result. After all, Simmons and Smith both seem to be worse choices.

No, I think Kemo is middle of the road. We could DEFINITELY downgrade, and see our stats average 4.25 or worse.

I personally, am looking for an upgrade at center, shift Hartwig to the right side, and then upgrade at left next year.

If Colon can do it, put Colon at Right G. and draft a LT. I am fine with that too. However, it is the right side that we need to worry about more.

Think of Kemo as a place holder. For a place holder, he got the right amount of money. Average salary of LG two years ago.

Fire Haley
03-04-2009, 05:35 PM
The answer is: I don't care who we bring in.

In other words, you don't have a clue who the replacement would be, you just want to bitch.

I can respect that.

tony hipchest
03-04-2009, 05:35 PM
interest in mcfadden has dwindled to an all time low in this thread.

but good post preacher!

Preacher
03-04-2009, 05:40 PM
interest in mcfadden has dwindled to an all time low in this thread.

but good post preacher!

thank ya!

I'll be here all week! :chuckle:

Fire Haley
03-04-2009, 05:42 PM
My perdiction of a CB in the 1st rd still holds.

Sharkissle29
03-04-2009, 06:16 PM
My perdiction of a CB in the 1st rd still holds.

Which CB did you have in mind if you dont mind me asking?

Do you think jenkins could fall down to us?

Fire Haley
03-04-2009, 06:22 PM
Which CB did you have in mind if you dont mind me asking?

Do you think jenkins could fall down to us?

No to Jenkins.

I like this guy for a pure cover corner.

Darius Butler

Did a 4.45 do enough to propel him higher in the draft? Probably not, but he displayed the other aspects of his athleticism that will keep him hovering near the draft's top-32. If you don't believe me, check out the 42-inch vertical and 11-foot-2 broad jump he put up in Indianapolis on Tuesday. Butler's efforts at Connecticut's Pro Day -- slated for March 25 -- could cement him in the first round.

Ht: 5-10 Wt: 178
Position: CB
Date of Birth: 03/18/1986
Class: RS - Senior
High School: City Of Coral Springs Charter
(Coral Springs, FL)
College: Connecticut


Butler is a tremendously versatile player who’s a quality defender and return specialist. He has good ball skills and is extremely instinctive in the secondary. He’s physical and fluid in coverage and positions himself well to break up the throw. He has great vision and is elusive with the ball in his hands. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com


Overall Football Traits

Production
1 2004: Connecticut red-shirted Butler.
2005-06: Appeared in 22 games (21 starts) recording 86 total-tackles and eight interceptions.
2007: Started all 13 games recording 54 total tackles and two interceptions

Height-Weight-Speed
2 Average height and bulk to go along with good top-end

Durability
2 Durability is a minor concern, as he missed the 2006 Syracuse game with a sore hamstring.

Character 0 N/A

Defensive Corner specific Traits

Recognition Skills/Toughness
2 An instinctive overall player. Shows good awareness in zone coverage and does a nice job of mid-pointing high-low routes.

Closing Burst
2 Shows good short-area burst when closing to the football. Shows a second gear and can recover when receivers get behind him. Has a tendency to false step coming out of backpedal

Fluidity
3 Displays loose hips and can easily changes directions. Shows ability to turn and run with receivers off of press coverage. Needs to improve off man skills, as he allows too much separation out of breaks


Ball Skills
2 Aggressive when going after the football. Does a nice job of getting hands between the ball and receiver without drawing pass-interference flag

Run Support

2 Does a nice job of shedding blocks and getting to the football. Effective going down low and knocking ball carriers off their feet.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2009&id=24474&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl draft%2fdraft%2ftracker%2fplayer%3fdraftyear%3d200 9%26id%3d24474

steelreserve
03-04-2009, 06:41 PM
Which means that with the addition of Starks and Stapleton, our sack rate decreased immediately by a full sack per game, and continued to decrease another sack and a half in next section of four games.

...

There is NO WAY you can just plop ANY person in there and get the same result. After all, Simmons and Smith both seem to be worse choices.

See, that's where I have to respectfully disagree. If you're arguing that swapping Stapleton and Starks in for Simmons and Smith was one of the reasons we saw better results ... in a way that's also saying that you CAN bring in a couple of unknowns and do fine.

At the start of the season, Smith and Simmons were the (more or less) dependable veterans of the line, and they were the ones who brought experience and continuity. Also at the time, Stapleton was kind of promising but we were scared to death to put him in there because of his total inexperience, and Starks was a bum who couldn't even win a starting job. Face it, they were a couple of randoms and we hoped they wouldn't be pressed into service. But now they're what helped turn things around? Seems like plugging in someone unknown isn't as much of a problem as we think. Or else that the "known quantities" (last season, Smith and Simmons, this season Kemo and Starks) are anything but.

Think of Kemo as a place holder. For a place holder, he got the right amount of money. Average salary of LG two years ago.

For a placeholder, we maybe ought to pay average salary, but if we were smart, we'd be able to do it for less. Hell, you want proof, we got Hartwig for less than that, and he's the only one on that line I might not consider a placeholder. We definitely shouldn't be paying top-three money for a placeholder like we are with Starks. Ugh.

If it was only Kemo's deal, who knows, I probably wouldn't have so much of a problem with it. But combine it with Starks and the Simmons cap fiasco, and we blew through close to $20 million in cap room with nothing to show for it except a couple of stopgap linemen. That really has the potential to hurt this football team.

You see over in the other threads, where people are debating whether we'll give Harrison $45 million or $52 million over 4 years? Or in this one, whether McFadden will "settle" for $7 million a year or not? We're talking as if all we have to do is cross our fingers and write them a big check, but does anyone have the foggiest idea where we're supposed to be getting this money? Are we going to pull it out of our ass? No -- because we don't have it. And when you don't, you start looking for the reason why you don't have it. Which is why I keep coming back to the line.

If I suggested trading Harrison straight-up for Starks, you'd call me crazy. Same if I suggested trading Holmes or Miller straight-up for Kemo. But unless we have some kind of magic up our sleeve, that's the choice we made, and I am not happy in the least.

tony hipchest
03-05-2009, 07:13 PM
detroit signs the bucs phillip buchanon for 2 yrs/ $8.5 mil. (pats also sign s. springs for what i assume would be cheaper).

on paper these players are better than mcfadden (and by "on paper" i mean that i think gm's are basically paying for past int totals- a stat b-mac grossly lacks in.)

5 years 24 mil/ 7 mil guaranteed sounds very fair to me (and should be a complete bargain 3 years from now).

steelwall
03-05-2009, 07:48 PM
I like BMac but I think William Gay is a playmaker and can do things for this team. That being said I would like to see us at least get a speedy corner with decent skills, and possibly contribute to the punt/return game.

BehindSteelCurtain
03-05-2009, 08:26 PM
If the Cardinals only want him as a backup, no way will he sign with them.

BehindSteelCurtain
03-05-2009, 08:29 PM
I once again doubt that Jenkins falls to us but the Steelers are known for trading up. I wouldnt be suprised to see the Steelers trade for like a middle pick. Around 15-16 Which is defintely in Jenkins' range.

BlastFurnace
03-05-2009, 09:10 PM
I will predict that McFadden won't come back to us because of pride. He left with his chest sticking up, head held high, and his hands stretched out to collect his money....and nothing.

If he comes back, it probably will make him feel like he is coming back with his tail between his legs.

HughC
03-05-2009, 09:33 PM
Bodden and McFadden are the only desirable CBs left. There are lots of other CBs but there is a huge dropoff after them. Tampa Bay has a ton of cap money remaining and are in dire need of a CB. They lost Buchanon and Ronde Barber can't have much left in the tank. They need help on the DL after getting run over down the stretch last year, as well as somebody to replace Derrick Brooks too. Therefore I doubt they'll go after both McFadden and Bodden, but the question is, which one will they sign? Which one fits in to their new defense the best?

Preacher
03-05-2009, 09:34 PM
See, that's where I have to respectfully disagree. If you're arguing that swapping Stapleton and Starks in for Simmons and Smith was one of the reasons we saw better results ... in a way that's also saying that you CAN bring in a couple of unknowns and do fine.

At the start of the season, Smith and Simmons were the (more or less) dependable veterans of the line, and they were the ones who brought experience and continuity. Also at the time, Stapleton was kind of promising but we were scared to death to put him in there because of his total inexperience, and Starks was a bum who couldn't even win a starting job. Face it, they were a couple of randoms and we hoped they wouldn't be pressed into service. But now they're what helped turn things around? Seems like plugging in someone unknown isn't as much of a problem as we think. Or else that the "known quantities" (last season, Smith and Simmons, this season Kemo and Starks) are anything but.

The problem however, is that Starks and Stapleton already knew the system. It has been in place now for two years, but it has taken that long for the team to learn it. A zone blocking scheme, or modified scheme is much different to pick up then Hit the guy in front of you, or follow him over and hit him on the other side.


For a placeholder, we maybe ought to pay average salary, but if we were smart, we'd be able to do it for less. Hell, you want proof, we got Hartwig for less than that, and he's the only one on that line I might not consider a placeholder. We definitely shouldn't be paying top-three money for a placeholder like we are with Starks. Ugh.

Of course we got Hartwig for less. Beleive it or not, the top average salary by position on the offense is 1. QB. 2. LG. Center is further down on the list. Even WR's make less money than the LG. So we SHOULD pay less for Hartwig at that position than we should for LG.

If it was only Kemo's deal, who knows, I probably wouldn't have so much of a problem with it. But combine it with Starks and the Simmons cap fiasco, and we blew through close to $20 million in cap room with nothing to show for it except a couple of stopgap linemen. That really has the potential to hurt this football team.

Very fair. I wondered about the Simmons signing as well. However, most of that will count this year, and then we can resign him next year. I think the bigger issue however, is that Harrison wants a LONG contract as well as a large one, and I wonder if ownership doesn't want to promise money in the last half of the contract, as Harrison will be in his earlymid to late mid thirties by the time that is done.

With Starks, well, we are going to just have to agree to disagree. I think it makes sense because of all the options it gives them. They can sign him and reduce the cap hit. The can release him next year without any cap hit. They can trade him now with NO cap hit. They can watch for a full year and see if he is really taking to the position, or if he will regress like he did at RT. I know you don't like what it does right NOW... but I think the longer view makes sense.

You see over in the other threads, where people are debating whether we'll give Harrison $45 million or $52 million over 4 years? Or in this one, whether McFadden will "settle" for $7 million a year or not? We're talking as if all we have to do is cross our fingers and write them a big check, but does anyone have the foggiest idea where we're supposed to be getting this money? Are we going to pull it out of our ass? No -- because we don't have it. And when you don't, you start looking for the reason why you don't have it. Which is why I keep coming back to the line.

If I suggested trading Harrison straight-up for Starks, you'd call me crazy. Same if I suggested trading Holmes or Miller straight-up for Kemo. But unless we have some kind of magic up our sleeve, that's the choice we made, and I am not happy in the least.


But your forgetting some other things. Like Ward's cap will go away... and I bet he signs a small cap hit a la Bettis. As I said before, We drop something like 3 mill in cap for Simmons next year. We drop what is it, almost a mill in dead money for Mahan. that right there, off the top of my head, is about 11 mill.

McFadden is finding out that the market doesn't think he is as good as he thought. His figures will come down. But if we do lose him, we have William Gay right behind him. So that isn't much of a loss comparatively. There is much less of a drop from McFadden to Gay than there is from Kemo to whom? or Starks to whom? And if you have to bring in a LG, it WILL cost more. a LT will cost less, but how much?

Lets look.

Panthers signed All-Pro left tackle Jordan Gross (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/6344) to a six-year deal worth more than $30 million in the first three seasons. That is 10 Mill a season in the first three seasons... yeah, I know, it is Jordan Gross. But it gives us a top on the market.

You figure the bottom of the market for a starter is what... about half that, or 5 mill a season.

Right now, Starks is getting what? 8..5 mil? That is only 2-3 mill over what he would be earning anyways. It isn't 7 mill thrown down teh toilet. It is 2-3.


All of that to say, the issues with Harrison and Gay are not directly affected by the line... Simmons maybe. But after that, doesn't matter who you bring in, you are going to pay the same amount or more.

So Harrison is going to have to come down a bit, or he will walk, unless Ward helps out by going the Bettis route. Gay will be able to come up and take McFadden's spot with little drop off.

The situation is pretty dang good when you consider cap issues, and the fact that we NEVER rebuild. THIS is why.

Preacher
03-05-2009, 09:34 PM
I will predict that McFadden won't come back to us because of pride. He left with his chest sticking up, head held high, and his hands stretched out to collect his money....and nothing.

If he comes back, it probably will make him feel like he is coming back with his tail between his legs.


You could be right on that.

OX1947
03-05-2009, 10:14 PM
Shawn Springs just signed with the Patriots so theres another team down. Steelers may luck out yet.