PDA

View Full Version : To further stir the pot....


Indo
03-04-2009, 03:49 PM
NO! Not THAT POT...

I just received this email...


> This was a response to someone who said this is the worst
> unemployment we have ever had! Since the depression!! Pass
> it on.
>
> Here is an email I put together to answer an email from
> someone who
> thought today's unemployment was the worse we have seen
> since the
> depression in the 1930s. I was shocked that someone would
> think that;
> but it made me wonder how many people actually believe
> this. With all
> of the high government officials telling us every day how
> bad things are
> and the news media doesn't question it, they just
> amplify it and repeat
> it ad infinitum ........ I guess maybe there are a lot of
> people who
> think today is the worst since the great depression; so in
> an effort to
> stop this disinformation effort by the government and the
> media, I would
> like to start this email making the rounds.
>
> According to the data that I can find on line, the peak
> unemployment
> rate of the depression occurred in 1933 and was 24.75%.
> The current unemployment rate as of Jan. 2009 was only 7.6%
> There have been many times in the 20th century when
> unemployment was
> this high or higher. I'll list some of the more recent
> ones below for you.
>
> Jan 1975, 8.1% and rose to peak of 9% May of 1975 and
> dropped to 7.6%
> in Feb. 1977 Except for the month of May 76 when it dipped
> to 7.4%, it
> was Over 2 years it was higher than Jan 2009.
>
> June 1980, rose to 7.6% and peaked at 7.7% Aug. 1980 and
> except for two
> months where it dipped to 7.2% it ended up at 7.4 % in
> August 1981.
> This is a period of 1 year and 2 months.
>
> Sept. 1981 when it rose to 7.6%, peaked in November and
> December of
> 1982 at 10.8% came down to 7.6% in May of 1984; 2 years and
> 8 months
> it was higher than Jan. 2009.
>
> From May 84 through Nov. 86 it stayed mostly above 7.0% 2
> Years and
> 6 months above 7%
>
> In 1991 it came up to 7.0% hit 7.6% in May 92 and peaked at
> 7.8% in June
> 92 and was back down to 7.6% in September 92. One year and
> 4 months
> above 7.6%.
>
> You can find this data at
> www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/hh/2007/february/figure34.htm
>
> So you can see that today's numbers have been exceeded
> many times in
> the past and we didn't have all this hoopla and
> government involvement
> in trying to "fix" things. This is why many of
> the conservative
> thinkers believe that this is a grand stand play by the
> liberal left to
> get all of the things they have been trying unsuccessfully
> to get for
> many years. This theory fits very nicely with all of the
> fear mongering
> that is going on at high government levels. Obama said this
> was so
> urgent, the American people couldn't be allowed time to
> read the phone
> book sized volume that makes up this bill before it was
> called for vote;
> but once it was passed, he delayed signing it for several
> days so he
> could take a trip to Chicago. Go figure .....
>
> It is another exercise in expanding government that the
> liberals think
> is the answer to all our woes. I don't know why anyone
> would want to
> trust the government to solve our problems when all of the
> government
> agencies are wrought with inefficiencies and blunders.
> Amtrak can't
> make a buck. Homeland security is wasting money trying to
> figure out
> how to make our airlines secure; they implement rules, then
> they throw
> them out. The IRS people are tripping over each other and
> the right
> hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Try to
> get one of them
> to answer a question about your taxes for you on the phone;
> they can't
> do it. The Security and Exchange commission sits there and
> lets a guy
> like Maddoff bilk lots of people out of lots of money for
> many years and
> someone else has to tell them what's going on. The Food
> an Drug
> administration is in bed with the pharmaceutical companies
> and the
> results have been bad drugs having to be pulled off the
> market AFTER
> people get hurt and many good non patented drugs never make
> it to the
> market place. Fannie May and Freddie Mac buckle under to
> pressure from
> the libs to give mortgages to people who can't afford
> them; so they can
> win over more voters at the poles. And then when all these
> folks
> default on their loans the first time the economy takes a
> dip; they all
> point fingers at each other. Obama can't seem to find
> enough honest
> people in Washington to fill out his cabinet. The governor
> of Illinois
> is impeached for trying to sell Obama's senate seat.
> When will it end?
>
> I just cannot fathom how any rational thinking citizen who
> is aware of
> what goes on in government would want to give them more
> power; but that
> is what is going to happen and this gigantic spending bill
> is going to
> finance it.
>



I think it echoes what many of us are thinking....

any comments?

GBMelBlount
03-04-2009, 03:58 PM
I just cannot fathom how any rational thinking citizen who is aware of what goes on in government would want to give them more power; but that is what is going to happen and this gigantic spending bill is going to finance it.

I feel too many people in this country believe that our problems are caused by freedom and capitalism and feel that government is the solution. It's absurd imo.

steelreserve
03-04-2009, 04:22 PM
I feel too many people in this country believe that our problems are caused by freedom and capitalism and feel that government is the solution. It's absurd imo.

Relax. When the Democrats are in power, there are people who think evil capitalists are the cause of all our problems and the noble, righteous leaders in the government will set us straight. When the Republicans are in power, there are people who think the evil government is the cause of all our problems and the noble, righteous leaders in the private sector will set us straight.

I mean, it's the same people doing the bitching, only what they're bitching about changes slightly depending on where it's easiest to put blame on conservatives while avoiding putting any on liberals.

Dragonrider
03-04-2009, 07:47 PM
The numbers are not so simple. When you include underemployed it changes them drastically. Also not included are people that have given up looking or filing. Minority numbers are way worse. As has been stated, much of it it greed run wild, but also personal irresponsibility. You have to take what is said with a grain of salt. Yes, things are worse than most of us remember.
The government has a role to play just like the rest of us. Enough of the blaming, try being part of the solution. Depending on your point of view, it is the fault of the other party. So the bottom line is both parties have screwed up. It is funny to my how people have such an opinion of a president after less than two months in office. None of what has been done has had enough time to have a real affect. Give it time, get the facts, then make a statement.
I for one hated what Reagan did to the economy, but instead of crying about it, I dealt with situation and moved on. The bottom line is right now, the private sector is doing nothing but hunkering down and trying to survive. If private companies are letting go of over 600,000 people a month for the last several months, then the private sector isn't going to get the economy going. You can't really compare percentages since the population is completely different. The population in 1930 was under 125 million, today it is over 300 million. What that means is there were approximately the same number of people unemployed during the depression as there are now. Do the math. If you round it off, there were 25 million in the '30s, and over 22.5 million today.

GBMelBlount
03-04-2009, 08:51 PM
Dragonrider

Give it time, get the facts, then make a statement.


Here's a fact. Government overspending, deficits, and strangling taxes are ruining our country and are largely the cause of our problems, much moreso than capitalism and free markets.....and it just got a helluvalot worse. Is there anything there you disagree with Dragonrider?

Dragonrider

The government has a role to play just like the rest of us.

Really? What role do you feel the government should have just like the rest of us?

I'm not being combative Dragonrider, I really am interested to know your thoughts.

Dragonrider
03-04-2009, 08:59 PM
We have had times of surpluses also. Greed has been a bigger factor. That is on both sides of the isle. What in the private sector provides for the least of us? Ones through no fault of there on fall on hard times. People that have their jobs shipped overseas or show up to chained gates. Who protects and cares for them, that would be the government.
There is nothing wrong with free markets, but when it becomes all about the bottom line and how much the bigwigs can make and not about the workers, then you have a problem. It is amazing how the executive pay has skyrocketed and the workers pay has stayed basically the same. As Henry Ford said, I want my workers to be able to afford the cars they make. That principle has gotten lost. Greed is not capitalism.

GBMelBlount
03-04-2009, 09:33 PM
Greed is not capitalism.

Exactly my point. Greed is a human trait and politicans are AS greedy as any big wigs in the private sector.

At least in the private sector you usually have to produce a good product at a fair price so that people will FREELY choose to purchase your product.

The government is a monopoly and they shove a shitty product down our throats and we are forced to pay 40+% of what we make.

The reason our jobs are going overseas has every bit as much to do with unions and high taxes as big wig corruption.

I work until June every year to pay the government what I am FORCED to pay them but I certainly don't work another 5 months to pay greedy big wigs.

So what's worse in your opinion Dragonrider? Greedy capitalism, competition and free markets or a greedy government monopoly that you work for 5 months a year?

Sorry Dragonrider, I lied, I guess I am being a little combative. :chuckle:

tony hipchest
03-04-2009, 10:37 PM
The government is a monopoly and they shove a shitty product down our throats and we are forced to pay 40+% of what we make.

::shake01: you call the freedoms we enjoy and the liberties to live like a king if we work hard enough a "shitty product"? :thmbdown:


what a shame. especially when its simply offered to you as opposed to being shoved down your throat.

good posting, dragonrider. :drink:

hindes204
03-04-2009, 10:41 PM
We have had times of surpluses also. Greed has been a bigger factor. That is on both sides of the isle. What in the private sector provides for the least of us? Ones through no fault of there on fall on hard times. People that have their jobs shipped overseas or show up to chained gates. Who protects and cares for them, that would be the government.
There is nothing wrong with free markets, but when it becomes all about the bottom line and how much the bigwigs can make and not about the workers, then you have a problem. It is amazing how the executive pay has skyrocketed and the workers pay has stayed basically the same. As Henry Ford said, I want my workers to be able to afford the cars they make. That principle has gotten lost. Greed is not capitalism.


The corrupt unions have ensured that they can afford the cars they make.....unfortunately, the auto unions have ensured the workers make ridiculous amounts of money so instead of buying fords, they are buying mercedes and lexus'

hindes204
03-04-2009, 10:43 PM
:shake01: you call the freedoms we enjoy and the liberties to live like a king if we work hard enough a "shitty product"? :thmbdown:


what a shame. especially when its simply offered to you as opposed to being shoved down your throat.

good posting, dragonrider. :drink:



IF we work hard enough...exactly....but then why is everybody worrying about handouts these days

GBMelBlount
03-04-2009, 10:50 PM
:shake01: you call the freedoms we enjoy and the liberties to live like a king if we work hard enough a "shitty product"? :thmbdown:



No I call the 40+% taxes bullshit. I call virtually every government program shitty because it is overpriced, poor quality and we are FORCED to pay for it. One of the ONLY things I can understand is defense. Again, that means that I don't have freedom 5 months out of the year. I work at gunpoint solely to pay for the governments largely failed social engineering experiments.

That is exactly why our country was founded to try and protect people from corrupt and overreaching government that ruins most countries. The founders of this country would be deeply saddened if they saw what is now happening to it.

tony hipchest
03-04-2009, 11:05 PM
No I call the 40+% taxes bullshit. I call virtually every government program shitty because it is overpriced, poor quality and we are FORCED to pay for it. One of the ONLY things I can understand is defense. Again, that means that I don't have freedom 5 months out of the year. I work at gunpoint solely to pay for the governments largely failed social engineering experiments.

That is exactly why our country was founded to try and protect people from corrupt and overreaching government that ruins most countries. The founders of this country would be deeply saddened if they saw what is now happening to it.so tell me... how much should you pay for the freedoms you enjoy? put a price on it, and i will listen....

(a simple percentage is fine)

in the meantime i will thank the Lord that i am probably better off than 5 billion other people that inhabit the planet, as opposed to bithcing about how bad i got it, on a daily basis.

billions of other people would love to pay 40% of their income to live in america. dont forget that as you constantly slam it.

hindes204
03-04-2009, 11:15 PM
so tell me... how much should you pay for the freedoms you enjoy? put a price on it, and i will listen....

(a simple percentage is fine)

in the meantime i will, thank the Lord that i am probably better off than 5 billion other people that inhabit the planet, as opposed to bithcing about how bad i got it, on a daily basis.

billions of other people would love to pay 40% of their income to live in america. dont forget that as you constantly slam it.



your argument is wrong...it is not bitching about how bad he has it, i think everybody here would agree that we live in the greatest country on earth, but when you start taxing the citizens to death to pay for your own pet projects and expand government, than we have every right to stand up and say "HOLD ON A MINUTE".....thats exactly what the founding fathers had in mind, to keep us from being controlled by government, to protect us from government itself

tony hipchest
03-04-2009, 11:31 PM
"...to death"????

lets not be overdramatic here.

our freedoms and liberties come at a price. is it a price youre willing to pay?

hindes204
03-04-2009, 11:45 PM
Its a saying Tony, your reading to much into it.

And i pay my price, by strapping up my boots, putting on my military uniform, and defending those freedoms and liberties you speak of.

tony hipchest
03-04-2009, 11:56 PM
Its a saying Tony, your reading to much into it.

And i pay my price, by strapping up my boots, putting on my military uniform, and defending those freedoms and liberties you speak of.:cheers:

excellent! (the exact response i was fishing for). you are willing to sacrifice and possibly pay with your life.

however, others are unwilling to sacrifice their pay and their salaries.

i am one who is for tax breaks for our enlisted troops as opposed to the ones given to the rich billionaires who already manipulate the "system".

hearing stories of our fighting force relying on welfare and food stamps to feed their families and purchasing their own gear is pretty disgusting when millionaires are bitching about a potential tax increase.

seriously.... (im not gonna look it up) what is the percentage of our military folk earning $250,000 per year? im thinking about nobody....

xfl2001fan
03-05-2009, 07:18 AM
:cheers:

excellent! (the exact response i was fishing for). you are willing to sacrifice and possibly pay with your life.

however, others are unwilling to sacrifice their pay and their salaries.

i am one who is for tax breaks for our enlisted troops as opposed to the ones given to the rich billionaires who already manipulate the "system".

hearing stories of our fighting force relying on welfare and food stamps to feed their families and purchasing their own gear is pretty disgusting when millionaires are bitching about a potential tax increase.

seriously.... (im not gonna look it up) what is the percentage of our military folk earning $250,000 per year? im thinking about nobody....

Based on 2009 Pay Charts, only about 1 or 2 Servicemembers would approach that number...

I see what you are saying here...but I also see the other side of the coin. The reason this country was founded was to have minimal federal government running our lives...these big projects and trillion dollar bail-outs shouldn't exist. Companies will fail, people will lose their jobs, but in a free-enterprise system, someone(s) will step up and replace them with a better product. The system is a self-sustaining system with (generally) minimal downtime. The instant we add in a poorly worked welfare system, FEMA (another program that is poorly run) and so on and so forth, we're paying for programs that aren't working, but we aren't given a different alternative.

When you buy a car, if you're smart, you check out car reports and do some research to see what is the best possible deal. You might ignore american because you are against the UAW...you might only look at american because you're patriotic...but at the end of the day, you have a choice in where you spend that money.

You don't have a choice but to pay for FEMA (which is not even close to being prepared for another Katrina-like event) or for a Welfare system that is being abused. That's where the complaint comes in. Most people don't mind that their tax dollars goes to a Soldier's pay (and after nearly 12 years in the service, I still qualify for WIC). Most people don't mind that their pay goes towards the creating/upkeep of interstates. However, when at least 90% of our tax money goes towards processes in place that suck, it's a reason to be upset. Why not let me have my money and take a lighter to it myself. At least then, I have been given the choice between burning my money, or letting the Government do it for me.

GBMelBlount
03-05-2009, 08:36 AM
so tell me... how much should you pay for the freedoms you enjoy? put a price on it, and i will listen....

(a simple percentage is fine)



Exactly my point. The vast majority of what we pay is NOT to protect our for freedom, it is to fund failed government social engineering programs AT MY EXPENSE.

Why should I be forced to pay for research into how global warming affects the mating habits of the one-testacled Bengal gnat, etc.?

Tony
1. Do you think the government needs a couple trillion dollars a year to protect us?

2. Do you feel that paying over 40% of what you earn to the government is excessive for protection?

3. Do you believe our government is more of the cause of our problems or the solution?

revefsreleets
03-05-2009, 10:09 AM
This country elected a liberal President during a financial crisis. The public voted and this is what we now have.

We all knew this was what we'd get: Higher taxes, and exponentially increased government spending and intrusion into the private sector. Some of us voted against that, but not enough of us.

Now we have to sit back and hope that the government doesn't screw up too badly. That's really the bottom line here. It's cute to see people defend the US Government as if it can truly save us. I have very little faith in that happening, because our government was designed from the start NOT to do what it's about to do.

It will be interesting to live through these times if nothing else...

hindes204
03-05-2009, 10:37 AM
This country elected a liberal President during a financial crisis. The public voted and this is what we now have.

We all knew this was what we'd get: Higher taxes, and exponentially increased government spending and intrusion into the private sector. Some of us voted against that, but not enough of us.

Now we have to sit back and hope that the government doesn't screw up too badly. That's really the bottom line here. It's cute to see people defend the US Government as if it can truly save us. I have very little faith in that happening, because our government was designed from the start NOT to do what it's about to do.

It will be interesting to live through these times if nothing else...

The problem is, these things that are being put into place are going to be embedded in our system for generations....these changes are going to be around long after Obama is out of office, its hard to sit back and watch that happen

revefsreleets
03-05-2009, 10:54 AM
That's a good point. Look at welfare. It was supposed to be a second chance, not a way of life. Now it's entrenched in our system, and has become a generational entitlement that people have come to believe is their right, not priviledge, to collect.

Obama overturned Clinton's welfare reform, by the way, which he enacted in '96. That's another giant leap BACKWARDS. Liberals were very angry with him at the time...looks like they finally got their way, pretty much to the detriment of ALL of us.

Indo
03-05-2009, 12:08 PM
The pot is stirred....

Dragonrider
03-06-2009, 07:54 PM
I don't think everybody is looking for a handout, but many these days need a hand up. If you look at how some of the social programs are set up, they punish you for trying to get a better life. I know the goal is to get off them for many, but when they reach a transition point where they are working, everything ceases. They are not self sufficient yet. So they have the choice of not having a job and getting total support, or having a job and not being able to afford the basics. Yes it happens. There many things that need fixing.
Thanks for the compliment Tony. Our government is broken. There is too much ideology and not enough practicality. Right now I am 17 days away from a total hip replacement at age 44. I served 16.5 years in the Air Force. The VA is taking care of me. If it wasn't for that I would be totally screwed. When I got out of the AF I went in to truck driving. I was involved in a wreck almost two years ago and haven't worked since. My wife does and has a good benefits package. But times have been hard. I am not asking for anything but a chance to get back on my feet. So don't be so quick to say everyone wants a handout. You haven't lived their lives or know their situation.

Stlrs4Life
03-06-2009, 09:20 PM
Relax. When the Democrats are in power, there are people who think evil capitalists are the cause of all our problems and the noble, righteous leaders in the government will set us straight. When the Republicans are in power, there are people who think the evil government is the cause of all our problems and the noble, righteous leaders in the private sector will set us straight.

I mean, it's the same people doing the bitching, only what they're bitching about changes slightly depending on where it's easiest to put blame on conservatives while avoiding putting any on liberals.


Quite contrare, the Republicans never take blame for there mistakes. Please, it comes from both sides.

devilsdancefloor
03-06-2009, 09:45 PM
quite honestly i beleive that washington has become a modern day equivalant to rome during the roman empire. The ones who are sent there and try to do the best for the people that put them there are mocked and normally do not last to many terms. this happens on both sides which is rather annoying. I beleive soon we wil have a3rd party take off in this country! im conservative and i look at bush and my head almost explodes and i look at obama and it ends up exploding. Bothh parties want to see if they can out spend one another it is nuts!