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Jackal
03-10-2009, 08:29 AM
The Steelers ranked 39th out of 122 teams, despite their perennial winning ways, huge fanbase, and 30+ years of consecutive sellouts. Somehow, though, the Red Wings cracked the Top 10, despite the fact they had about 1/3 empty seats during the Stanley Cup Finals.

Methinks whoever was doing the fuzzy math for this article must be a Clowns fan.


The most successful sports teams: How Pittsburgh fared
Pittsburgh Business Times

Ask the average Pittsburgher who the most successful pro sports team in town is, and most will probably point to the Super Bowl champion Steelers.
But a new study looking at all 122 franchises in the National Football League, the National Hockey League, the National Basketball Association and Major League Baseball finds otherwise.
Bizjournals analyzed the performances of all 122 franchises in the NBA, NFL, Major League Baseball and the National Hockey League in the 2008 calendar year. The top scores went to those teams that were strongest at the twin missions of professional sports -- winning games and making money.
The Eastern Conference champion Pittsburgh Penguins ranked tenth, the study found, the only Steel City team to crack the top 10. Predictably, the slumping Pirates, who finished 2008 with their 15th-straight losing season, were in the bottom 10, at No. 118.
Curiously, the Steelers ranked 39th on the list.
Here’s how the survey made its calculations:
Half of a team’s score was determined by its level of success on the field, court or ice. Bizjournals’ formula considered each franchise’s win-loss record, average margin of victory (or defeat), and playoff results.
The other half was determined by a team’s relative success in business. The formula analyzed average home attendance, the percentage of available seats sold for home games, and the increase (or decline) in a franchise’s value from 2007 to 2008. The latter was based on annual estimates published by Forbes magazine.
The study was confined to the 2008 calendar year. Statistics for the 2007-08 NBA and NHL seasons after Dec. 31, 2007, were combined with 2008-09 statistics through Dec. 31, 2008. Playoff results for the NFL, NBA and NHL came from the first half of 2008, since their 2008-09 playoffs had not begun as of the end of the year.
Championship teams that played before full houses did best in bizjournals’ ratings.
Bizjournals is the new media division of the Pittsburgh Business Times’ parent company, American City Business Journals.
For the detailed reports, see the full Bizjournals story here .
The Top Ten and Bottom Ten teams
These were the 10 best sports organizations of 2008:

1. Boston Celtics (NBA)
2. New York Giants (NFL)
3. Los Angeles Lakers (NBA)
4. Montreal Canadiens (NHL)
5. Boston Red Sox (MLB)
6. Detroit Pistons (NBA)
7. Detroit Red Wings (NHL)
8. Chicago Cubs (MLB)
9. Philadelphia Phillies (MLB)
10. Pittsburgh Penguins (NHL)

And these were the 10 worst:

122. Detroit Lions (NFL)
121. New York Islanders (NHL)
120. Memphis Grizzlies (NBA)
119. Atlanta Thrashers (NHL)
118. Pittsburgh Pirates (MLB)
117. Minnesota Timberwolves (NBA)
116. St. Louis Rams (NFL)
115. Baltimore Orioles (MLB)
114. Columbus Blue Jackets (NHL)
113. Washington Nationals (MLB)

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2009/03/02/daily67.html?ana=from_rss#tp_newCommentAnchor

HometownGal
03-10-2009, 08:37 AM
I'm absolutey shocked (and horrified) that the Steelers didn't make the Top 10! :jawdrop: They are Top 10 material in every one of the "required" categories!!!! Dude who compiled these stats needs to put down the crack pipe.

Half of a team’s score was determined by its level of success on the field, court or ice. Bizjournals’ formula considered each franchise’s win-loss record, average margin of victory (or defeat), and playoff results.
The other half was determined by a team’s relative success in business. The formula analyzed average home attendance, the percentage of available seats sold for home games, and the increase (or decline) in a franchise’s value from 2007 to 2008.

I'm glad to see the Pens made the Top 10, but their average home attendance over the last 2-3/4 seasons is grossly exaggerated by the number of bandwagoners who jumped on board after back to back playoff runs and realized there really IS a hockey team in Pittsburgh. :doh:

Jackal
03-10-2009, 08:41 AM
...and the increase (or decline) in a franchise’s value from 2007 to 2008

I'm thinking they weighed this factor too heavily in their calculations. That would explain why the Celtics are at the top, after they assembled their All-Star line-up last year, and how the Pens cracked the Top 10 the year they made a deep playoff run and got the bandwagoners back on board.

Otherwise, I'm at a loss to explain how a team that was nearly bankrupt 5 years ago and was practically giving away tickets (Penguins) are 29 spots higher than one of the most consistently successful teams in sports.

WeegiesWarriors
03-10-2009, 09:10 AM
There isn't going to be much of a percentage increase from year to year for the value of the Steeler franchise. They're worth nearly a billion dollars. Let's say they appreciated $20mm in 2008, that is only an increase of 2%. Whereas if the Penguin franchise appreciated by $20mm but started out only worth $50mm that is an increase of 40%.

I am not an accountant, and totally pulled these numbers out of my backside to offer an opinion. Maybe they're looking at percentages on that part of the equation. You're not going to show gigantic percentage growth every year if you're already a giant.

Plus they're only looking at the 2008 year. Steelers were a one and done playoff team that year... not a Super Bowl winner. There would have been 52 playoff teams if you count all of the sports. They also take into account average margin of victory, something the Steelers of THIS year wouldn't have gotten high marks for and they won the Super Bowl.

In other words... lots of holes for possible nitpicking.

AllD
03-10-2009, 03:09 PM
There are more holes in his numbers theory than in a whiffle ball.

He is missing the overall picture when he puts the Pens over the Steelers.

devilsdancefloor
03-10-2009, 04:00 PM
i can not believe the dead wings are on this list but the steelers are not

Dino 6 Rings
03-10-2009, 05:49 PM
What a funny thread. This is Comedy Right? Where did this come from, the Onion?

Stover4Prez
03-10-2009, 06:15 PM
Looks like everyone is a little disappointed here. Especially since everyone's favorite team the RAVENS came in at #19! Too bad you sell out each game but apparently don't go to the game. What's up with your attendance? Why is "Steeler Nation" not actually going to the game? I think that and your win margin is what got you.

tyler289
03-10-2009, 06:30 PM
I find it strange that a team thats sells out every game, has a HUGE fanbase, has playoff success, etc. is not in the top 10. Wow.

devilsdancefloor
03-10-2009, 07:14 PM
Looks like everyone is a little disappointed here. Especially since everyone's favorite team the RAVENS came in at #19! Too bad you sell out each game but apparently don't go to the game. What's up with your attendance? Why is "Steeler Nation" not actually going to the game? I think that and your win margin is what got you.

nah i actually think that the person doing the calculating went to school in cleveland and moved to bmore with the purple browns.

4xSBChamps
03-10-2009, 07:19 PM
nah i actually think that the person doing the calculating went to school in cleveland and moved to bmore with the purple browns.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/depressed-browns-fan.jpg

"..... I are a high-skool granulate, but I hope to attend coolige....."

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0812/nfl.fans.week14/images/ravens-fan.jpg

Petesburgh66
03-11-2009, 12:53 AM
They couldn't sell out playoff games last year, yet alone regular season games. And some how the Red Wings are number 7? :rofl: Whatever. This list is garbage.

Galax Steeler
03-11-2009, 04:29 AM
I guess it is just one mans opinion. I think his list is way off.

Preacher
03-11-2009, 05:14 AM
No,

His list is dead on, FOR WHAT IT IS.

Look again at where it came from, "Business Times"

Thus, its worry is

1. Bottom line and
2. Bottom line in 3-5 years.

Everything else like SB's, ownership, etc. are secondary to that factor.

If I was an owner in it to make money, I wouldn't own the Steelers. You can own other teams and make a heck of a lot more money.

Now if I was in it for the glory of the franchise... I would own the Steelers. . . PERIOD.

stlrtruck
03-11-2009, 08:16 AM
Look this guy wants to create some sort of controversy. And let's face it, we help other teams sell out stadiums therefore it increases their standings.

The person who created the calculations are trying to base their numbers off raw numbers. If you look at ticket sales, are you dividing tickets sales between home team fans and visiting team's fans?

It's all flawed. Anyone who is a fan of an NFL Team knows that STEELERS NATION and the STEELERS are the best franchise.

EVER!

Stover4Prez
03-11-2009, 05:25 PM
I once again repost my original question though. If you all claim to be the best franchise with the best fans (you are definitely up there, don't get me wrong) how come you were not able to fill your stadium to capacity this past year? Home team fans or visiting fans, it still appears there were empty seats in Pittsburgh. What gives?

fansince'76
03-11-2009, 06:08 PM
Looks like everyone is a little disappointed here. Especially since everyone's favorite team the RAVENS came in at #19!

No, a very good percentage of us couldn't give a rat's ass less about it. Stop being a troll.

LukesDad88
03-11-2009, 06:58 PM
There was only one NFL team in the top ten. The most popular sport in the US. That tells you something right there. They also were only ranking it on a minimal time frame.

Not worth getting worked up over.

Preacher
03-11-2009, 07:03 PM
I once again repost my original question though. If you all claim to be the best franchise with the best fans (you are definitely up there, don't get me wrong) how come you were not able to fill your stadium to capacity this past year? Home team fans or visiting fans, it still appears there were empty seats in Pittsburgh. What gives?

Simple.

People buy season tickets and then sell all the tickets on Stubhub etc. at a price that the normal person has a hard time affording.

It says more that tickets are being sold for anywhere from 200 to 5000 dollars a game, and we are still putting that many butts in the stands.

you wanna try another question?

steelerdave1969
03-11-2009, 08:09 PM
I think its a total joke that the N.Y.Giants are as high as they are and even ahead of the Steelers.When was the last time the Steelers had back 2 back losing seasons? Just a rediculous thing that they are not ranked at the very least in the top 7 or so and I guarentee you they are not below the N.Y.Giants.. what a joke!!:chuckle:

Stover4Prez
03-11-2009, 08:27 PM
Ahhh, you guys are so easy to rile up. Of course I'm throwing a rivalry ribbing in here, but I'm actually more curious of the attendance number. I would not have expected Pittsburgh to not have 100% attendance. I agree with all of you that 39 is quite low on the list for a team that has had as much success and team following as the Steelers.


It says more that tickets are being sold for anywhere from 200 to 5000 dollars a game, and we are still putting that many butts in the stands.


That does not explain people not going through the turnstile. Is your argument that because the Stubhub price is so expensive, no one buys the ticket and therefor it isn't used? The percent of attendance is the people who are AT the game. I would have expected a full house all the time.

The purpose of this list was to get people to talk about it. And apparently it worked!

steelerdave1969
03-11-2009, 08:30 PM
Just getting back from the website called pro-football-reference.com and I love this site cause it has all kinds of Great Info on All NFL teams throughout their histories. Go check it out when you looking for some new information.
Here is some information that I just collected there and I hope you enjoy it..
The years of 1985-88 which is 4 years is the longest drough since that time that the Steelers didnt make the playoffs. Also from '98-'00 was our last drought of 3 years or longer. I just wonder what other team(s) can actually say the same about their franchises in the NFL. The NBA is different just for the fact there is not a strict salary cap like there is in the NFL and MLB is just a overpaid bunch of players that say they play for the " love of the game "

steelerdave1969
03-11-2009, 08:32 PM
Ahhh, you guys are so easy to rile up. Of course I'm throwing a rivalry ribbing in here, but I'm actually more curious of the attendance number. I would not have expected Pittsburgh to not have 100% attendance. I agree with all of you that 39 is quite low on the list for a team that has had as much success and team following as the Steelers.



That does not explain people not going through the turnstile. Is your argument that because the Stubhub price is so expensive, no one buys the ticket and therefor it isn't used? The percent of attendance is the people who are AT the game. I would have expected a full house all the time.

The purpose of this list was to get people to talk about it. And apparently it worked!

If the Steelers are ranked 39th I bet the Ravens arent ranked in the top 150.
:rofl:

Stover4Prez
03-11-2009, 08:38 PM
If the Steelers are ranked 39th I bet the Ravens arent ranked in the top 150.
:rofl:


:point: OOPS!!!! :thmbup:

19. Baltimore Ravens (NFL)
Score: 70.97 points
Rank in sport: 5 (of 32 NFL teams)
On-field performance: 11-5-0 record, average margin of 8.81 points per game
Business performance: 71,269 attendance per home game, 100.0% of capacity, gain of 10% in franchise value

39. Pittsburgh Steelers (NFL)
Score: 61.94 points
Rank in sport: 10 (of 32 NFL teams)
On-field performance: 12-4-0 record, average margin of 7.75 points per game
Business performance: 62,891 attendance per home game, 96.7% of capacity, gain of 9% in franchise value

Preacher
03-11-2009, 08:48 PM
That does not explain people not going through the turnstile. Is your argument that because the Stubhub price is so expensive, no one buys the ticket and therefor it isn't used? The percent of attendance is the people who are AT the game. I would have expected a full house all the time.
!

That is exactly what happens. Because those people (actually, scalpers) that hold those tickets hold 5, 10, 50, 100 PSL's that they have bought over the internet.

They then put out the tickets for a certain price. WAY ABOVE what the actual cost is. 6, 7, 8 times the actual price.

Those tickets don't sell, and thus, they are not used. However, EVERY GAME is still "Sold Out" because the original tickets were sold to the holder of the PSL's.

On top of that, you have people in teh great Pittsburgh Diaspora that still have PSL's, but can't get back to the games. So they sell online as well. They only need to sell a few tickets to make their money back.

Trust me, as a Raven fan, you have no idea about how it is trying to get tickets for a game....

Or maybe you do . . . WHENEVER THE STEELERS COME TO TOWN! :rofl::rofl:

Stover4Prez
03-11-2009, 08:56 PM
I think I would rather have fans in the stadium than high ticket prices on STUBHUB. Just my opinion!

steelerchad
03-11-2009, 09:07 PM
:point: OOPS!!!! :thmbup:

19. Baltimore Ravens (NFL)
Score: 70.97 points
Rank in sport: 5 (of 32 NFL teams)
On-field performance: 11-5-0 record, average margin of 8.81 points per game
Business performance: 71,269 attendance per home game, 100.0% of capacity, gain of 10% in franchise value

39. Pittsburgh Steelers (NFL)
Score: 61.94 points
Rank in sport: 10 (of 32 NFL teams)
On-field performance: 12-4-0 record, average margin of 7.75 points per game
Business performance: 62,891 attendance per home game, 96.7% of capacity, gain of 9% in franchise value

Listen buddy. You're just plain wrong on this BS attendance arguement. It is well documented that the NFL allows it's teams to use whatever method they choose to list their attendance. Most teams obviously boost the numbers by using Paid attendance. It is fact that the Steelers use turnstile numbers. Although I don't know the Ravens method, most teams use paid as their method and an educated guess would say the Ravens do as well. Based on the 100% number and the fact that I've been to M&T 6 times myself and have seen empty seats first hand. In fact, when we broke your hearts this year, I was there with my kids and there were 2 empties the entire game the very seat next to us. So the 100% doesn't hold water.

Also, lets look realistically at this. I'm on the season ticket waiting list and there are 38,000 names in front of mine and I've been on the list for 9 years. I will die before I even get halfway up the list. Yet I looked into Ravens tickets since I live in Richmond, VA figuring I could go to that game and sell the rest or give them to customers. I could have had them 2 years ago, but decided to pass on them because if I tried to sell any of the games besides the Steeler game I would have lost money. Even when you win you're resale value is barely face, except for the Steelers, where it's about double face. There truly is no comparison. There are only 3 teams that draw consistant high prices when traveling on the road. Steelers, Packers, Cowboys. No one else is even close. Not the Pats, Colts, and definately not the Ravens.

I would also venture to say Baltimore clearly outpaces Pittsburgh in almost all categories that would affect attendance. Such as population and affluency. Yet the Steelers still have the highest demand for tickets in the NFL. There is no question about that.

Every team has a few hundred fans who don't show up for whatever reason. The Steelers are just one of the few who acknowledge it since sellouts are a given in Pittsburgh. I mean would it really make sense to post the paid attendance every week on the scoreboard. Since it would be the same number forever.

Stover4Prez
03-11-2009, 09:22 PM
Even when you win you're resale value is barely face, except for the Steelers, where it's about double face.


I'm not sure where you are selling, but as a PSL owner and a fan who has also bought extra tickets for multiple games throughout the season, that statement is completely false. The idea that with a 8-10 year waiting list in Baltimore that the tickets are selling under face on the internet is completely wrong.
As for the attendance argument, without further information of how they determined those numbers, I can't make any further comment.

It is an interesting discussion though....

steelerchad
03-11-2009, 10:18 PM
I'm not sure where you are selling, but as a PSL owner and a fan who has also bought extra tickets for multiple games throughout the season, that statement is completely false. The idea that with a 8-10 year waiting list in Baltimore that the tickets are selling under face on the internet is completely wrong.
As for the attendance argument, without further information of how they determined those numbers, I can't make any further comment.

It is an interesting discussion though....

Trust me guy. The comment is absolutely true about your ticket prices. Even at 11-5 last year you couldn't get much more than face for any game but the Steelers. Jacksonville, the last game got a little boost because it was basically a playoff game. But that game only got that way in December when you were in the playoff hunt. If you would have sold Jax tickets in Nov. you would have been lucky to get $70/ticket upper level. I watch ticket prices very closely. And you're waiting list may be a little longer now, but I was offered tickets a couple years ago and was on the list after 2001. So I'm guessing it's more like 5 years tops.

With the losing streak you're about to embark on I'm guessing tickets will be readily available for whoever wants them at face value, except when the Steelers come to town that is. Too bad you need us to get your ticket demand up. When the Ravens come to town in the burgh, it's just another game. I was at all 3 Ravens games this year in fact. The Ravens just don't draw extra interest like some other teams. The regular season game with the Rats was probably 7th out of 8 in resale value with only the Bungles bringing in less. Some of that was due to being a night game, but they still are well behind the Boys, Giants, Colts, Browns all of which were on our home schedule.
Yes, you're still a rival. Just not a great one. It's kind of been one sided for most of the time you've existed. I realize you've won 35-40% of the time. Just not when it counted. Either playoff game.

lilyoder6
03-11-2009, 10:54 PM
i would like to know how many of these so called successful franchises have moved??

Stover4Prez
03-12-2009, 12:43 AM
Trust me guy. The comment is absolutely true about your ticket prices. Even at 11-5 last year you couldn't get much more than face for any game but the Steelers. Jacksonville, the last game got a little boost because it was basically a playoff game. But that game only got that way in December when you were in the playoff hunt. If you would have sold Jax tickets in Nov. you would have been lucky to get $70/ticket upper level. I watch ticket prices very closely. And you're waiting list may be a little longer now, but I was offered tickets a couple years ago and was on the list after 2001. So I'm guessing it's more like 5 years tops.

With the losing streak you're about to embark on I'm guessing tickets will be readily available for whoever wants them at face value, except when the Steelers come to town that is. Too bad you need us to get your ticket demand up. When the Ravens come to town in the burgh, it's just another game. I was at all 3 Ravens games this year in fact. The Ravens just don't draw extra interest like some other teams. The regular season game with the Rats was probably 7th out of 8 in resale value with only the Bungles bringing in less. Some of that was due to being a night game, but they still are well behind the Boys, Giants, Colts, Browns all of which were on our home schedule.
Yes, you're still a rival. Just not a great one. It's kind of been one sided for most of the time you've existed. I realize you've won 35-40% of the time. Just not when it counted. Either playoff game.

Okay, SPORT. You can claim what you want, but trust me, we don't need the Steelers to come to town to sell tickets or put people in the stands. I guess you win the "scalpers ripping their fans off" battle. Congrats.
Frankly I don't care if your city is excited about the Ravens coming to town or not. In fact I could care less about the fan interest in Pittsburgh. My original observation was that Pittsburgh was not putting as many people IN the stadium as Baltimore was. Now part of this is due to the size (obviously), but I have yet to find an attendance list that shows the Steeler Nation showing up on game day as much as Ravens Fans. It might be due to your claim about how the teams report, but I don't buy that in multiple lists. I don't believe that someone would publish a list using different standards for each team reporting. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

As for your prediction of our upcoming "losing streak", I guess time will tell. I'm not buying it with us going to the AFC Championship game in a season when we should have been 8-8. You guys had a good team, and you are the champs, but you weren't as dominate as you all think. Stuggles to win all 3 games against us, loss to Tennessee, and a couple lucky breaks that got you over the Cardinals.

Here's to a great season! :drink:

steelerchad
03-12-2009, 12:54 AM
Okay, SPORT. You can claim what you want, but trust me, we don't need the Steelers to come to town to sell tickets or put people in the stands. I guess you win the "scalpers ripping their fans off" battle. Congrats.
Frankly I don't care if your city is excited about the Ravens coming to town or not. In fact I could care less about the fan interest in Pittsburgh. My original observation was that Pittsburgh was not putting as many people IN the stadium as Baltimore was. Now part of this is due to the size (obviously), but I have yet to find an attendance list that shows the Steeler Nation showing up on game day as much as Ravens Fans. It might be due to your claim about how the teams report, but I don't buy that in multiple lists. I don't believe that someone would publish a list using different standards for each team reporting. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

As for your prediction of our upcoming "losing streak", I guess time will tell. I'm not buying it with us going to the AFC Championship game in a season when we should have been 8-8. You guys had a good team, and you are the champs, but you weren't as dominate as you all think. Stuggles to win all 3 games against us, loss to Tennessee, and a couple lucky breaks that got you over the Cardinals.

Here's to a great season! :drink:

You can say it doesn't make sense the way the lists are done but just do a little research and you'll see. These people that generate the lists don't count the people in the stands. Where do you think they get the numbers? Umm - From the teams themselves. It's how the team reports the attendance. And the Steelers report turnstile and I know for a fact they are one of the few that do. I can't swear the Ravens don't, but do you think you had 100% attendance this year. The list doesn't say 99.99%, it says 100%. Let's be realistic here- That's paid attendance don't you think. Use some common sense man.

As for your lousy upcoming season, I may have overstated it. But maybe not. I do think you overachieved this year and were not all that good overall. In addition, your losses have been greater, including your longtime D coordinator. I think Flacco will be better, but you've always been a defensive team and that D is getting older and thinner. We have flaws as well. But we've had very few losses and are getting some guys back that could help. Our punting was horrific this year and should be better with Sep back. Unfortunately for the Ravens they got burnt a little on the 2nd place schedule this year. Our schedules are the same except for our 1st place schedule of Miami and the Titans. And your 2nd of the Colts and Patriots. I expect us to be +1 in those 2 games, but we'll see how it all shakes out.

WeegiesWarriors
03-12-2009, 07:16 AM
Okay, SPORT. You can claim what you want, but trust me, we don't need the Steelers to come to town to sell tickets or put people in the stands. I guess you win the "scalpers ripping their fans off" battle. Congrats.
Frankly I don't care if your city is excited about the Ravens coming to town or not. In fact I could care less about the fan interest in Pittsburgh. My original observation was that Pittsburgh was not putting as many people IN the stadium as Baltimore was. Now part of this is due to the size (obviously), but I have yet to find an attendance list that shows the Steeler Nation showing up on game day as much as Ravens Fans. It might be due to your claim about how the teams report, but I don't buy that in multiple lists. I don't believe that someone would publish a list using different standards for each team reporting. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

As for your prediction of our upcoming "losing streak", I guess time will tell. I'm not buying it with us going to the AFC Championship game in a season when we should have been 8-8. You guys had a good team, and you are the champs, but you weren't as dominate as you all think. Stuggles to win all 3 games against us, loss to Tennessee, and a couple lucky breaks that got you over the Cardinals.

Here's to a great season! :drink:


Where does it say anywhere that people don't show up to games? From the looks of the stadium on TV it doesn't look like many empty seats. I know I can't get in without paying through the nose scalper prices. Provide an article that states that nobody shows up. You're trying to make this argument to a fan base that shows up at stadiums 1000 miles away. Jacksonville's stadium is half Steeler fans when we play them. Steeler fans show up at any NFL Stadium, so why wouldn't they their own? Provide proof or your claim is absurd. Or are you just saying that your stadium is larger?... which makes your point ... well... pointless.

Jackal
03-12-2009, 01:28 PM
I once again repost my original question though. If you all claim to be the best franchise with the best fans (you are definitely up there, don't get me wrong) how come you were not able to fill your stadium to capacity this past year? Home team fans or visiting fans, it still appears there were empty seats in Pittsburgh. What gives?

You are a grade-A ass clown, aren't you?

Check the stats- we've sold out every home game since the 1970's.

Stinking :troll:.

Jackal
03-12-2009, 01:33 PM
I'm not sure where you are selling, but as a PSL owner and a fan who has also bought extra tickets for multiple games throughout the season, that statement is completely false. The idea that with a 8-10 year waiting list in Baltimore that the tickets are selling under face on the internet is completely wrong.
As for the attendance argument, without further information of how they determined those numbers, I can't make any further comment.

It is an interesting discussion though....

I have personally researched PSL's at Heinz Field and M&T Bank (I'm interested in buying Steelers PSL's, but was looking for comparison).

500-level PSL's at Heinz were selling for $6750/ea., whereas Club Level PSL's at M&T were selling for $4500/ea., including the tickets. Basic economics would say that those figures reflect the demand for said licenses.

X-Terminator
03-12-2009, 01:58 PM
Ahhh, you guys are so easy to rile up. Of course I'm throwing a rivalry ribbing in here, but I'm actually more curious of the attendance number. I would not have expected Pittsburgh to not have 100% attendance. I agree with all of you that 39 is quite low on the list for a team that has had as much success and team following as the Steelers.



That does not explain people not going through the turnstile. Is your argument that because the Stubhub price is so expensive, no one buys the ticket and therefor it isn't used? The percent of attendance is the people who are AT the game. I would have expected a full house all the time.

The purpose of this list was to get people to talk about it. And apparently it worked!

OK, even though you're obviously trying to troll and get Steelers fans pissed, I'm going to attempt to answer your question. I would guess a large part of the reason why the Steelers' attendance was down was because of:

1. A prime-time heavy schedule, and
2. Bad/cold weather games.

A lot of fans who otherwise would go to the games do not want to go to late afternoon/night games because they have these things called JOBS they have to go to the next day. Getting to/from Heinz Field isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to do if you're driving and need to get home at a reasonable hour, though a lot of that will change once the North Shore subway connector is done in 2011 that will directly serve PNC Park and Heinz. There are also a lot of them who do not want to sit out in the cold, snow and/or rain to watch the games. I personally know of a few STHs who did not go to games this year because of the weather. Hell, I'm not all that thrilled about sitting out in 20-degree weather with the wind blowing in from the open end of the stadium either. So there you go.

fansince'76
03-12-2009, 02:04 PM
nah i actually think that the person doing the calculating went to school in cleveland and moved to bmore with the purple browns.

This list was compiled with the same mentality as another recent list which ranked NFL owners and had Jones and Snyder both in the top 5 and Rooney at about #15. Giant crock of shit. :coffee:

Edman
03-12-2009, 02:20 PM
I would give the Ravens a good chance, if they hadn't spent their budget on an over the hill Linebacker who dances.

Joe Flacco is supposedly their future, but the geniuses in the Rats front office throw a boatload of money at a declining Ray Lewis instead. I'm sure should the Rats struggle next year, they'll blame it on the offense. As usual.

lilyoder6
03-12-2009, 02:35 PM
I would give the Ravens a good chance, if they hadn't spent their budget on an over the hill Linebacker who dances.

Joe Flacco is supposedly their future, but the geniuses in the Rats front office throw a boatload of money at a declining Ray Lewis instead. I'm sure should the Rats struggle next year, they'll blame it on the offense. As usual.

the ravens could of used that money and actualy go get a wr to help out the offense.....

but it's ok b/c they want to keep giving stats to ray ray that he does not deserve

Stover4Prez
03-12-2009, 04:45 PM
First off, I find it funny that the second anyone makes a comment other than "The Steelers are the greatest!" they are instantly a troll.

Second, I'm not disputing PSL prices or scalper prices for tickets. I said that Ravens tickets are not selling below face. But my real question was more of why on multiple lists Pittsburgh is in the middle to the bottom on putting actual people in the stadium. I expected you all to fill the stadium every game, but multiple sites say otherwise. Now I understand the argument of turnstile vs. sales numbers and have been unable to find anywhere stating which teams use which methods, including the Steelers.

Third, if the Ravens struggle next year because the O can't score a touchdown it is the offense's fault. How is it not? That has been the history of the team since its creating in '96. Even the year we won the Superbowl, there was little offense.

Fourth, I don't understand the statement about Ray not deserving the stats. Love him or hate him, he is one of the best LB's to play the game and is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Finally, I'm not a "grade - A assclown." That would require I live in Pittsburgh!!

Here's to a Steelers / Ravens AFC Championship rematch!

4xSBChamps
03-12-2009, 05:41 PM
I'm not a "grade - A assclown."


opinions vary.
:helmet:


That would require I live in Pittsburgh!!


oh-fer-2

Preacher
03-12-2009, 06:58 PM
That has been the history of the team since its creating in '96. Even the year we won the Superbowl, there was little offense.



Just a little FYI. . . The team wasn't created in 1996. It was stolen from Cleveland in 1995.

Fourth, I don't understand the statement about Ray not deserving the stats. Love him or hate him, he is one of the best LB's to play the game and is a first ballot Hall of Famer.


Simple. he is the third man in on a tackle. . . after the guy is down, and still gets credited with half a tackle by the statistician. . . so that they can create a legend in Baltimore that is not a Colt. It happens all the time. Baseball is famous for it as well. But in football, well, The Ravens are the head of the class... least they can win something.

Jackal
03-12-2009, 10:27 PM
First off, I find it funny that the second anyone makes a comment other than "The Steelers are the greatest!" they are instantly a troll.

Second, I'm not disputing PSL prices or scalper prices for tickets. I said that Ravens tickets are not selling below face. But my real question was more of why on multiple lists Pittsburgh is in the middle to the bottom on putting actual people in the stadium. I expected you all to fill the stadium every game, but multiple sites say otherwise. Now I understand the argument of turnstile vs. sales numbers and have been unable to find anywhere stating which teams use which methods, including the Steelers.

Third, if the Ravens struggle next year because the O can't score a touchdown it is the offense's fault. How is it not? That has been the history of the team since its creating in '96. Even the year we won the Superbowl, there was little offense.

Fourth, I don't understand the statement about Ray not deserving the stats. Love him or hate him, he is one of the best LB's to play the game and is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Finally, I'm not a "grade - A assclown." That would require I live in Pittsburgh!!

Here's to a Steelers / Ravens AFC Championship rematch!

I'd like to see these "multiple lists" you cite here. Secondly, part of my job is doing sports marketing---stadium signage---and from what I know SteelerChad is right about the attendance reporting. I don't have the actual info in front of me, but I could probably do a little digging for it.

Sorry if I get a little nasty, but I seriously hate the Ravens, their fans, and the city of Baltimore. I used to have to go up there a few times/month for work, and it's pretty much the worst city in the country. 75% of it's hardcore ghetto, and the rest is semi-ghetto (Fells Point, Canton). As for their fanbase, if you go up there in October, you wouldn't even know they had a team. Then, once they make the playoffs, everyone breaks out their Lewis jerseys and they tint the streetlights purple.

Gameday? Forget about it. I was screamed at and cussed at in the Sun's luxury box because I "clapped loud" when the Steelers got a first down...even though we were down by 10 in the 4th.

The only 2 things worth a s**t in B'more are Michael "Doobie" Phelps and the all-you-can-eat Philips Seafood at the over-rated Inner Harbor.

Stover4Prez
03-12-2009, 10:46 PM
Just a little FYI. . . The team wasn't created in 1996. It was stolen from Cleveland in 1995.



Just a little FYI, the Cleveland franchise was suspended when Modell moved the personnel and equipment to Baltimore. The Ravens are an expansion team created out of the old Browns. The actual Ravens franchise was created in 1996. The Browns franchise remains in Cleveland. Now you have the facts.

And as for Cleveland, I feel a tinge of sympathy for them, however the NFL instantly guaranteed them a new team and they kept their colors, name, history, and franchise. So I don't feel that bad, especially after what Irsay did the Baltimore with the Colts.

Stover4Prez
03-12-2009, 10:53 PM
Sorry if I get a little nasty, but I seriously hate the Ravens, their fans, and the city of Baltimore. .

No worries, I hate the Steelers. That's why we are fans. :drink:

I guess at this point I'm simply curious to see the numbers across the NFL on the SAME attendance scale. Seems stupid that this is a compiled stat and published by the NFL with different measuring standards.

stlrtruck
03-12-2009, 11:09 PM
Just a little FYI, the Cleveland franchise was suspended when Modell moved the personnel and equipment to Baltimore. The Ravens are an expansion team created out of the old Browns. The actual Ravens franchise was created in 1996. The Browns franchise remains in Cleveland. Now you have the facts.

And as for Cleveland, I feel a tinge of sympathy for them, however the NFL instantly guaranteed them a new team and they kept their colors, name, history, and franchise. So I don't feel that bad, especially after what Irsay did the Baltimore with the Colts.

The team still wasn't created through player lists, FA's, and the draft ala other expansion teams created in the NFL. This team had players, ownership (bad one at that), and office personal in place at the time of their dismantling in Cleveland and subsequent move to baltimore. So saying is was "created" is a bit of a stretch of the imagination!

But I digress, this thread isn't about how the ratbirds were created from a bunch of turds. It's about numbers and the bottom line is that no one is providing the list of what numbers teams use to for attendance or how seats are filled.

Bottom line, having been in both stadiums on game day - there are usually a few hundred empty seats in both! And this article - is just a crock of shite! Any fan knows the one thing that makes their team successful in the end is the number of titles and last time I checked - we lead that record in the NFL!

Stover4Prez
03-12-2009, 11:18 PM
TAnd this article - is just a crock of shite! Any fan knows the one thing that makes their team successful in the end is the number of titles and last time I checked - we lead that record in the NFL!

I agree.

SteelCityMan786
03-13-2009, 01:00 AM
Cubs in the top 10!!!!!!Looool!!!! Can anyone tell me the last time they won a championship :doh:? At least this is only one fartface's opinion. Steelers are always #1 to me :tt02:

The Cubs won a Championship???

steelerchad
03-14-2009, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Stover4Prez:

Second, I'm not disputing PSL prices or scalper prices for tickets. I said that Ravens tickets are not selling below face. But my real question was more of why on multiple lists Pittsburgh is in the middle to the bottom on putting actual people in the stadium. I expected you all to fill the stadium every game, but multiple sites say otherwise.


Here you go:


This was taken from 2 seperate articles I found on the web. I've searched, but can find nothing on the Ravens calculation method. Again based on their number being 100%, it's based on tickets sold but I don't have the proof. However the proof of the Steelers method is below and it also mentions other NFL teams are free to report however they choose. I suspect most would choose to do tickets sold as it shows that they "sold out" all of their games. Since this is a given in Pittsburgh with a lifetime long waiting list they report turnstile.

May 14, 2006

POLICIES

NFL: The league used to announce tickets distributed, tickets used and no-shows but changed its policy to leave it up to individual teams.

The Steelers, who are free under NFL rules to use any method they want, announce turnstile count.

lilyoder6
03-14-2009, 05:36 PM
The Cubs won a Championship???

it was like over 100 yrs ago.. lol