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SteelersMongol
04-15-2009, 09:13 PM
For Capt. Kamaljit Singh Kalsi, a doctor, and 2nd Lt. Tejdeep Singh Rattan, a dentist, this is a hill worth fighting for.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/US/04/15/us.sikhs.military/art.sikh.coalition.split.jpg

These two U.S. military recruits of the Sikh faith are challenging an Army order that they remove their turbans and cut their unshorn hair and beards when they report for active duty in July.

In Sikhism, which originated in northwestern India, the turban and unshorn hair are articles of faith and can't be removed.

But the U.S. military says there are times when the military cannot accommodate certain religious practices, "such as when those religious observations would interfere with the wear of proper military headgear or protective clothing or equipment."

"It doesn't make sense to me, especially in these hard times," Kalsi told CNN. "The military is hurting for professionals. They need doctors, they need nurses."

Aided by the Sikh Coalition, a national civil rights group, and a law firm, the men have filed requests that their religious needs be accommodated. They have filed appeals with their immediate superiors and complaints with the inspectors general of the Army and the Pentagon.

The Sikh Coalition said Kalsi and Rattan had been assured that when they were recruited to join the Army's Health Professions Scholarship that their unshorn hair and turbans "would not be a problem."

"Both men were both recruited and commissioned -- with their Sikh articles of faith -- during their respective first years of medical and dental school (2001 and 2006) through the Army's Health Professions Scholarship Program.

"Both are concluding their training and are slated to begin active duty in July 2009. However, the U.S. Army is now disputing their ability to serve with their Sikh identity intact," the Sikh Coalition said in an April 14 letter addressed to Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Amardeep Singh, the head of the Sikh Coalition, told CNN that the issue at hand involves observant Sikhs, not those Sikh-Americans who entered the military after removing their turbans and shaving their beards and hair.

The issue is all-important for the roughly 500,000-strong American Sikh community, which faced hostility after the September 11, 2001, attacks, when people associated them with al Qaeda terrorists because their turbans and beards resembled the militants' appearance.

"The perception is still there," said Singh. "We're sort of still feeling it."

He said surveys -- including one done recently in Queens, New York, where children reported being on the receiving end of verbal and physical abuse -- chronicle the problems Sikhs face.

"These kids are being harassed in New York. It's Queens, the most diverse county in the United States. If this is happening in Queens, it's happening in other parts of the country."

So, he said, the opportunity to serve in the U.S. Army sends the opposite message -- "that we are part and parcel of the fabric of this country."

Kalsi, Singh and the Sikh community stress the Sikhs' military heritage. Kalsi, for example, is the fourth generation in his family to serve in the military, and his ancestors served in India's military. The Sikh served in allied forces in the two world wars and they serve in the militaries of Great Britain, Canada, Sweden, Pakistan, as well as India.

The coalition notes in its letter to Gates that a Sikh doctor and dentist were serving in the Army, "grandfathered in under the old policy" that ended in the 1980s when observant Sikhs were barred from admission to the armed forces.

Lt. Col. Christopher C. Garver, an Army spokesman, told CNN in an e-mail that "the Army places high value on the rights of Soldiers to freely observe the tenets of their respective religions."

"Accommodation of a Soldier's religious practices must be examined against military necessity and cannot be guaranteed at all times," he wrote. "There are times when the Army cannot accommodate for religious reasons, such as when those religious observations would interfere with the wear of proper military headgear or protective clothing or equipment.

"The Army regulations which establish the standards of wear and appearance of the uniform and accommodating religious practices are in accordance with the Department of Defense Instruction on this subject," he said.

But the Sikhs want the Army to rethink and reconsider their situation.

"If they can come up with another policy that would allow Sikhs to serve, I guarantee you, they will have many, many people join from the Sikh community," Kalsi said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/04/15/us.sikhs.military/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

What do you guys think?

MasterOfPuppets
04-16-2009, 12:56 AM
well i think these rag heads were well aware of the military's dress codes long before they ever joined. so why the hell do they think they'll bend thier guidelines for these clowns? if they make exceptions for these then EVERYONE will be bitching about thier religious rights. since they've already reaped the benefit of the training at the governments exspence, if they don't comply, they should spend some time in levonworth......:popcorn:

steelwall
04-16-2009, 01:00 AM
But the U.S. military says there are times when the military cannot accommodate certain religious practices, "such as when those religious observations would interfere with the wear of proper military headgear or protective clothing or equipment."

Pretty much trumps everything. They can stay home if they wish.

Edit: You know "The Army of one" slogan. What are they going to change it to........"the army of one.... oh yeah... plus those two other homeless looking guys......"

steelwall
04-16-2009, 01:30 AM
well i think these rag heads were well aware of the military's dress codes long before they ever joined. so why the hell do they think they'll bend thier guidelines for these clowns? if they make exceptions for these then EVERYONE will be bitching about thier religious rights. since they've already reaped the benefit of the training at the governments exspence, if they don't comply, they should spend some time in levonworth......:popcorn:

And waste all the good money the tax payers have dished out to educate these guys..... I think we need to establish a poorly supplied 2 man out post in Antartica.

Seriously if these guys are not willing to take off their hats and shave for their country then how could any soldier serving along side of them that follow the rules, ever have any confidence in them? I question their motives for this. I understand somethings are related to religion. Heck thou shalt not kill....is a pretty big part of just about any religion (about I say) but joining the military you would know that there may be a day when you have to pull the trigger...will they.... thats what I'd be thinking.. and so would every other soldier around them. Why put yourself in that position? IMO this is all politically motivated BS..

MasterOfPuppets
04-16-2009, 02:18 AM
And waste all the good money the tax payers have dished out to educate these guys..... I think we need to establish a poorly supplied 2 man out post in Antartica.

Seriously if these guys are not willing to take off their hats and shave for their country then how could any soldier serving along side of them that follow the rules, ever have any confidence in them? I question their motives for this. I understand somethings are related to religion. Heck thou shalt not kill....is a pretty big part of just about any religion (about I say) but joining the military you would know that there may be a day when you have to pull the trigger...will they.... thats what I'd be thinking.. and so would every other soldier around them. Why put yourself in that position? IMO this is all politically motivated BS.. like i said....EVERYBODY knows your gonna be sportin the high and tight, and dressed in green goin in......i'd say they were after the free education, and now they don't wanna pay for it by serving.....i'm so damn sick of these minorities, and minority religions/ groups hiding behind and bending the constitution to suit there agenda's. i consider myself agnostic, but it pisses me off to know end the way these douchebags go out of thier way to piss off the masses and buck the system with petty bullshit, like christmas decorations and religious symbols , and using the word christ or god.

steelwall
04-16-2009, 03:11 AM
like i said....EVERYBODY knows your gonna be sportin the high and tight, and dressed in green goin in......i'd say they were after the free education, and now they don't wanna pay for it by serving.....i'm so damn sick of these minorities, and minority religions/ groups hiding behind and bending the constitution to suit there agenda's. i consider myself agnostic, but it pisses me off to know end the way these douchebags go out of thier way to piss off the masses and buck the system with petty bullshit, like christmas decorations and religious symbols , and using the word christ or god.


You could be right...They were in it for the education all along, which is a major kick in the sack for the tax payers. Hey I served beside guys from countries I never even heard of, but like you said "the high and tight" is the way it is, and the way it should be for many reasons.

I'm not sure if it's the education or just a politicaly motivated hornswoggle (don't know what that means but seams fitting) but I'm thinking whatever their motivation to join the Military was, it certainly wasent to defend this country. Hell their allready fighting our military policies.....

MasterOfPuppets
04-16-2009, 03:19 AM
You could be right...They were in it for the education all along, which is a major kick in the sack for the tax payers. Hey I served beside guys from countries I never even heard of, but like you said "the high and tight" is the way it is, and the way it should be for many reasons.

I'm not sure if it's the education or just a politicaly motivated hornswoggle (don't know what that means but seams fitting) but I'm thinking whatever their motivation to join the Military was, it certainly wasent to defend this country. Hell their allready fighting our military policies..... well ask yourself what do they have to gain from it ? i wouldn't think they'd have a snowballs chance in hell of winning a suit, and making the military change policy. so that leaves media exposure for thier religion, and a discharge.....:noidea: .....and these jackasses can't figure out where the hostility comes from...must be nice to migrate to a country and have the chance to get em to cater to your insignificant needs/desires.... just once...ONCE...i'd like to see a figure head tell one of these groups if they can't conform, pack the F up and get the F out !!!

steelwall
04-16-2009, 03:29 AM
well ask yourself what do they have to gain from it ? i wouldn't think they'd have a snowballs chance in hell of winning a suit, and making the military change policies. so that leaves media exposure for thier religion, and a discharge.....:noidea:


I see no gain from this on their side at all. The military is not going to change their policy on this.....at least not now.... but they are taking steps to fight the system on this, so my guess is more :blah: to come out of their turban.

And another thing....Whats the big F'n deal??? obviously these guys must trim their beards or theirs grow in super slow motion. If I were to go for 3 months without shaving I'd look like a front man for ZZ Top. So I don't want to hear my beard is sacred crap. ZZ Top, now there's the real men who hold their beards sacred. :noidea: :chuckle: AND....do they wear their turban's to bed too?? You cant tell me they never take it off. Wear 5 turbans on your own time for all I care but when you are on my dime you do what it is you need to do or get out.

Seriously, if they are discharged and I expect them to be, it should certainly be dishonorable. Infact as a nation we should make sure of that. We footed the bill for these guys to hit the private sector and become rich, why help them by giving them an honorable discharge...???

xfl2001fan
04-16-2009, 07:36 AM
It won't be dishonorable discharge...the worst it will likely be is a General Discharge under other-than-honorable conditions. Again, that's the worst it will be.

I don't know which recruiter lied to them and said it wouldn't be an issue...that's just straight up BS. Charge them for their schooling for breech of contract and move on.

Dino 6 Rings
04-16-2009, 11:24 AM
There is only one color in the US Army and that's Green.

Shave and a Hair Cut...Two Bits.

SteelersMongol
04-16-2009, 09:24 PM
I'm not here 2 argue or start another endless dispute. But U guys kept calling em with the names like "towel heads" or "turban heads" so I couldn't help but 2 try 2 reply. These guys R totally different than typical Muslim fundamentalists. It's like calling the Jews Muslims. As far as I learned they're very brave & honorary men. They make good soldiers historically.

My take is Y can't the US military make exceptions 4 em. I understand how these men R torn between their faith & wanting 2 serve the military. I'm sure U guys can say there R at least hundreds of Muslim men serving in the US military without a trouble. Muslims can go without turbans but these guys can't. I took out some paragraphs from the wiki on the bottom, so that U guys can C.

I also hear some of U guys don't like these minority demands that make U change rules. If U look at it closely isn't that similar 2 family like situation? I mean the couples are used to some ways of lifestyle, until the kids starting show up. :wink02: The kids don't ask U 2 change the whole thing 4 em, only a few rules, & same as these minority groups who R asking from the government. They're only asking U 2 make small changes 4 em. After all pretty much everything was set up before these minorities were accepted as equals. (Please note that I'm not bashing the US government, since it's pretty much the same in many other countries!)

The Five Ks, or panj kakaar/kakke, are five articles of faith that all baptized Sikhs are required to wear at all times, as commanded by the tenth Sikh Guru, who so ordered on the day of Baisakhi Amrit Sanskar in 1699. The symbols are worn for identification and representation of the ideals of Sikhism, such as honesty, equality, fidelity, meditating on God, and never bowing to tyranny. Kesh or uncut hair is one of the five symbols.

Generally Sikhism has had amicable relations with other religions. However, during the Islamic conquest of India (1556–1707), prominent Sikh Gurus were martyred by the ruling Mughals for opposing the Mughal's persecution of non-Islamic religious communities. Subsequently, Sikhism militarized to oppose Islamic hegemony. The emergence of the Sikh Empire under reign of the Maharajah Ranjit Singh was characterized by religious tolerance and pluralism with Christians, Muslims and Hindus in positions of power.

Sikhs make up 10–15% of all ranks in the Indian Army and 20% of its officers, whilst Sikhs only forming 1.87% of the Indian population, which makes them over 10 times more likely to be a soldier and officer in the Indian Army than the average Indian. The Sikh Regiment is one of the highest decorated regiment of the Indian Army.

By the advent of World War I, Sikhs in the British Indian Army totaled over 100,000; i.e. 20% of the British Indian Army. In the years to 1945, 14 Victoria Crosses were awarded to the Sikhs, a per capita record given the size of the Sikh Regiments. In 2002, the names of all Sikh VC and George Cross winners were commemorated by being inscribed on the pavilion monument of the Memorial Gates on Constitution Hill next to Buckingham palace, London.

During the First World War, Sikh battalions fought in Egypt, Palestine, Mesopotamia, Gallipoli and France. Six battalions of the Sikh Regiment were raised in the World War II, and served at El Alamein and in Burma, Italy and Iraq, winning 27 battle honours.

SteelersMongol
04-16-2009, 09:30 PM
Oh and also these 2 paragraphs.

"In the last two world wars 83,005 turban wearing Sikh soldiers were killed and 109,045 were wounded. They all died or were wounded for the freedom of Britain and the world, and during shell fire, with no other protection but the turban, the symbol of their faith."
General Sir Frank Messervy

The Battle of Saragarhi

The Battle of Saragarhi is considered one of the greatest stories of collective bravery in human history. The contingent of twenty-one soldiers from the 36th Sikhs was led by Havildar Ishar Singh, and held off an Afghan attack of 10,000 men for several hours. All 21 Sikh soldiers chose to fight to the death instead of surrendering. In recognition of their supreme sacrifice, the British Parliament rose to pay them respect, and each one of them was awarded the Indian Order of Merit (equivalent to the Victoria Cross). The battle has been compared to the Battle of Thermopylae, where a small Greek force faced a large Persian army of Xerxes (480 BC).

I know U guys would love 2 have these guys in your ranks. :wink02:

steelwall
04-16-2009, 11:06 PM
It won't be dishonorable discharge...the worst it will likely be is a General Discharge under other-than-honorable conditions. Again, that's the worst it will be.

I don't know which recruiter lied to them and said it wouldn't be an issue...that's just straight up BS. Charge them for their schooling for breech of contract and move on.

They said the recruiter lied to them:noidea: how do we know that for sure?

Preacher
04-16-2009, 11:24 PM
They said the recruiter lied to them:noidea: how do we know that for sure?

Honestly, the recruiters need to be reigned in. Some of the idiocy the recruiters pull is downright dishonorable. I was thinking about going in the army as a chaplain. I had one outright lie to me about the process (chaplains DONT go through basic training . . . They Don't even GO to basic... they go to a specialized officer training program for chaplains).

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/chaplain_candidate_prog.jsp

This idiot was trying to get me to go right into basic. If ANY recruiter promises you something, GET IT IN WRITING.

If these guys were promised that... and they can prove it. Then it isn't their problem... IT IS THE RECRUITERS FAULT.

SteelersinCA
04-17-2009, 12:01 AM
Cut your hair and shave or pay back the country for your school loans.

steelwall
04-17-2009, 12:26 AM
Honestly, the recruiters need to be reigned in. Some of the idiocy the recruiters pull is downright dishonorable. I was thinking about going in the army as a chaplain. I had one outright lie to me about the process (chaplains DONT go through basic training . . . They Don't even GO to basic... they go to a specialized officer training program for chaplains).

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/chaplain_candidate_prog.jsp

This idiot was trying to get me to go right into basic. If ANY recruiter promises you something, GET IT IN WRITING.

If these guys were promised that... and they can prove it. Then it isn't their problem... IT IS THE RECRUITERS FAULT.

Sure some lie..... I guess.... and they don't know all the answers but I know they act like they do. I'm not going to jump on the recruiter on this one even if he did lie, because if this was that important to them they should have done more research on their own, I guess the way you found out for yourself you would have to go to basic.

The recruiter I had pulled no punches he was honest and upfront about everything I asked.

Preacher
04-17-2009, 02:10 AM
The guy I was talking to straight up told me that I would go through basic.

Fact is, I knew I didn't have to as a chaplain. Of course, I mentioned my fear of heights and he said, "we have a program to help you get over that." I laughed right in his face and said, "yeah, the program is,
'get your blankety blank blank up the blanking blank and do what we blanking tell you'."

Yes, I actually said the words blank.

I think he knew then that I wasn't falling for it.

steelwall
04-17-2009, 02:27 AM
Oh and also these 2 paragraphs.





I know U guys would love 2 have these guys in your ranks. :wink02:

I don't doubt the history of these people, and this certainly shouldn't be about race, but I doubt these guys would see much action being a dentist and a doctor. All the more reason for me to believe this whole thing was a sham on their part from the beginning.

SteelersMongol
04-17-2009, 10:31 AM
I don't doubt the history of these people, and this certainly shouldn't be about race, but I doubt these guys would see much action being a dentist and a doctor. All the more reason for me to believe this whole thing was a sham on their part from the beginning.

What if the other Sikhs R not joining the US military because of this issue? Bend just a couple rules & U'll get bunch of guys that a born & raised in military ways. :wink02:

"The British, as well as the Indians, are proud of the 36th Sikh Regiments. It is no exaggeration to record that the armies which possess the valiant Sikhs cannot face defeat in war"
- Parliament of the United Kingdom

"You are never disappointed when you are with the Sikhs. Those 21 soldiers all fought to the death. That bravery should be within all of us. Those soldiers were lauded in Britain and their pride went throughout the Indian Army. Inside every Sikh should be this pride and courage. The important thing is that you must not get too big-headed it is important to be humble in victory and to pay respect to the other side."
- Field Marshal William Joseph Slim, 1st Viscount Slim

SteelersinCA
04-17-2009, 10:37 AM
What if the other Sikhs R not joining the US military because of this issue? Bend just a couple rules & U'll get bunch of guys that a born & raised in military ways. :wink02:

[/RIGHT]

I don't want a bunch of people just by bending the rules. Regiment is what makes the military work. Where do you stop bending rules?

Dino 6 Rings
04-17-2009, 10:53 AM
Look, I think its cool these guys want to join the US Army, I've nothing against Sikhs, reading up on their history, they are pretty tough people and usually on the right side of fights.

But...to be in the Army, you must follow the rules. That means, Shave and a Hair Cut.

That's the rules. So don't change them for anyone otherwise you'll have to start letting openly gay guys wear pink Uniforms and for guys with Russian Heritage to wear commie Red uniforms.

You dress the part, you where the US Colors, or you don't participate. Bottom line.

steelreserve
04-17-2009, 11:13 AM
Somehow, I don't think protective headgear is high on the list of equipment needed to serve as a dentist. I know it's important to follow procedure in the military, but this seems like a situation where just exercising a little common-sense judgment could make things turn out happily for everyone. Being that adamant about sticking to the rules even when the situation really doesn't call for it is just stubborn.

I went to school with a few people who were of the Sikh faith, and I've got to say, this is not your usual religious-trinket dispute like whether it's optional to wear a necklace or something like that. It's, like one of the seven fundamental things that's hugely important to them from birth. It'd be like telling one of those Orthodox Jews with the hats and the long-ass beards that they had to eat pork and couldn't pray from now on, only about ten times more so.

Bottom line for me is, yeah, if these guys were supposed to be front-line troops, this probably wouldn't fly. So fine, disqualify them from any of the jobs where you have to wear a helmet. If they want to make themselves useful somewhere, go for it.

SteelersMongol
04-17-2009, 11:18 AM
I don't want a bunch of people just by bending the rules. Regiment is what makes the military work. Where do you stop bending rules?

Look, I think its cool these guys want to join the US Army, I've nothing against Sikhs, reading up on their history, they are pretty tough people and usually on the right side of fights.

But...to be in the Army, you must follow the rules. That means, Shave and a Hair Cut.

That's the rules. So don't change them for anyone otherwise you'll have to start letting openly gay guys wear pink Uniforms and for guys with Russian Heritage to wear commie Red uniforms.

You dress the part, you where the US Colors, or you don't participate. Bottom line.

Well, they're not asking 2 wear any skirts or kimonos. :noidea: All they're asking is to keep their beards & turbans on. I'm sure they realize the possible future negative outcomes from this, but they're asking 4 it 4 themselves. If something happens, they're 2 blame. It's that simple. Just a beard & turban.

Dino 6 Rings
04-17-2009, 11:20 AM
They don't realize the future negative outcomes at all. The Deal is You wear the Army Green, you get the High and Tight, and you shave. There is a reason you shave. It is for the protection provided by NBC, Nuclear Biological Chemical, Gear specifically the Gas Mask. You must be clean shaven for the Seal to properly set.

Its standard. Its the Rule. Either Shave and Cut the hair and put on the cap, or go join the Peace Corp and get your rocks off helping people that way.

SteelersinCA
04-17-2009, 01:35 PM
Somehow, I don't think protective headgear is high on the list of equipment needed to serve as a dentist.

Ever been forward deployed? Ever seen the doctors and medical staff in the rear of a combat brigade? They wear flak jackets and everything when stuff gets thick. Do we now make turban conforming kevlar helmets? Do we say, "hey you asked for it, sorry that mortar threw shrapnel in your head?"

Somehow I don't think that's the way to go. I went through basic 14 years ago, but I'm pretty sure the Kevlar helmet is still the standard combat headwear.

SteelersinCA
04-17-2009, 01:37 PM
Well, they're not asking 2 wear any skirts or kimonos. :noidea: All they're asking is to keep their beards & turbans on. I'm sure they realize the possible future negative outcomes from this, but they're asking 4 it 4 themselves. If something happens, they're 2 blame. It's that simple. Just a beard & turban.

So if they die because they are allowed to not wear a helmet when it could have saved them and now that unit is without a doctor and more people suffer because the Sikh who didn't have to wear a helmet, that's OK too?

After all, he's only asking for it for himself. And that would be the perfect counter argument to allowing them to wear it. It's selfish and self serving, something the military doesn't have a need or room for.

steelwall
04-17-2009, 09:49 PM
So if they die because they are allowed to not wear a helmet when it could have saved them and now that unit is without a doctor and more people suffer because the Sikh who didn't have to wear a helmet, that's OK too?

After all, he's only asking for it for himself. And that would be the perfect counter argument to allowing them to wear it. It's selfish and self serving, something the military doesn't have a need or room for.


Damn good point.

SteelersMongol
04-18-2009, 06:27 AM
They don't realize the future negative outcomes at all. The Deal is You wear the Army Green, you get the High and Tight, and you shave. There is a reason you shave. It is for the protection provided by NBC, Nuclear Biological Chemical, Gear specifically the Gas Mask. You must be clean shaven for the Seal to properly set.

Its standard. Its the Rule. Either Shave and Cut the hair and put on the cap, or go join the Peace Corp and get your rocks off helping people that way.

Ever been forward deployed? Ever seen the doctors and medical staff in the rear of a combat brigade? They wear flak jackets and everything when stuff gets thick. Do we now make turban conforming kevlar helmets? Do we say, "hey you asked for it, sorry that mortar threw shrapnel in your head?"

Somehow I don't think that's the way to go. I went through basic 14 years ago, but I'm pretty sure the Kevlar helmet is still the standard combat headwear.

This is a 21st Century. Anything is possible. Let em have specially designed helmet & even a gas mask if they want & make em pay 4 it. Wasn't there sometime where the families of the troops were sending all kinds of bulletproof vests & etc. when the military couldn't supply the troops with proper bulletproof vest?

So if they die because they are allowed to not wear a helmet when it could have saved them and now that unit is without a doctor and more people suffer because the Sikh who didn't have to wear a helmet, that's OK too?

After all, he's only asking for it for himself. And that would be the perfect counter argument to allowing them to wear it. It's selfish and self serving, something the military doesn't have a need or room for.

Selfish? They're not sneaking out of a country 2 Canada, R they? They' said they'll B with U only if ...

OK, like I said before, I'm not here 2 start an endless debate. Now it is more becoming like I'm a some foreigner who is trying 2 teach U how the US army should B like. :wink02: All I did was 2 try 2 show U the other side of a coin, & there is more 2 it than what U thought at the moment. But what do I know? I've never been with the military. & since U guys been with the military I know U guys R entitled 2 say what's it like in the army & maybe how it should stay. Thanks 4 sharing your views.

xfl2001fan
04-18-2009, 07:47 AM
There are many things to consider here.

1 - There really isn't a debate because the Army has a Standard that it expects every Soldier to abide by.

2 - There really isn't a debate because if the Army allows the Sikh to tilt that standard, then many other medially proficient (at a minimum) "Soldiers" will expect to have the standard tilted some in their favor.

3 - There really isn't a debate because in the Army, we are all "Soldier's" first. Even our Chaplains have to abide by the standards of the Army. If the Religious leaders have to abide by the standard set forth, why in the hell wouldn't a dentist?

4 - There really isn't a debate because there are serious safety implications involved with not having a beard and not wearing a Turban. These were state previously. The NBC mask seal around a beard...and the ACH (the new Kevlar) definitely doesn't fit around a turban.

MasterOfPuppets
04-18-2009, 07:09 PM
Well, they're not asking 2 wear any skirts or kimonos. :noidea: . that would be the french military.......:chuckle:

Hines0wnz
04-18-2009, 07:13 PM
This shouldnt even be a story or debate. The regulations are there for everyone with no exceptions and when you join you are more than aware of them. If they dont wish to conform then they should be punished and given a 1 way ticket home. Period.

SteelersMongol
04-19-2009, 11:26 AM
There are many things to consider here.

1 - There really isn't a debate because the Army has a Standard that it expects every Soldier to abide by.

2 - There really isn't a debate because if the Army allows the Sikh to tilt that standard, then many other medially proficient (at a minimum) "Soldiers" will expect to have the standard tilted some in their favor.

3 - There really isn't a debate because in the Army, we are all "Soldier's" first. Even our Chaplains have to abide by the standards of the Army. If the Religious leaders have to abide by the standard set forth, why in the hell wouldn't a dentist?

4 - There really isn't a debate because there are serious safety implications involved with not having a beard and not wearing a Turban. These were state previously. The NBC mask seal around a beard...and the ACH (the new Kevlar) definitely doesn't fit around a turban.

:doh: Then how about this? Let's just say U R 1 of those 2 Sikhs recruits. Or their lawyer. I would love 2 C U defend their side of the story. Could U really do that? It's real simple, just imagine yourself in their shoes 4 a moment. U read the story, so U should know what has happened. Take it as a challenge. :wink02: I know this is 1 of those things that they teach in universities in the states, so it should B real easy 4 U.

The thing is basically what I just read from your post is nothing new than what I read from previous posts. But U really had write it up all again, not understanding what I wrote or tried 2 say. (Note, I'm not gonna accept something like "Then I wouldn't join the US army", or "I'd go back 2 my country"! U'r better than that.)

xfl2001fan
04-19-2009, 12:55 PM
:doh: Then how about this? Let's just say U R 1 of those 2 Sikhs recruits. Or their lawyer. I would love 2 C U defend their side of the story. Could U really do that? It's real simple, just imagine yourself in their shoes 4 a moment. U read the story, so U should know what has happened. Take it as a challenge. :wink02: I know this is 1 of those things that they teach in universities in the states, so it should B real easy 4 U.

The thing is basically what I just read from your post is nothing new than what I read from previous posts. But U really had write it up all again, not understanding what I wrote or tried 2 say. (Note, I'm not gonna accept something like "Then I wouldn't join the US army", or "I'd go back 2 my country"! U'r better than that.)

Before I joined the military, I did my research. I really did. I knew about the height/weight/appearance requirements. I knew what the PT standard was. I don't have a father, or an uncle or a brother in the military. A couple of cousins who were born and raised in California...but I have met them all of 2 times in my entire life. I treated joining the military like I treated going to college. I did the research, weighed the options and made my choice.

I can't change what the recruiter said to them. If I'm a lawyer defending them, I'm going after their recruiter. In this case, most of these slick recruiters who are pulling the wool over the eyes of the prospective Soldiers (or whatever branch) are almost always smart enough not to put it in writing. If the Sikh's did get something in writing, then they have a real legal battle and some justification. Unfortunately, what they have is heresy from how long ago? That's why my post indicated that there is no debate in this. There is no argument. It's sad that there are some shady recruiters. It really is. I want to string those types of recruiters up by their balls because they aren't doing me (as a Soldier) any good whatsoever. In fact, they make my job that much more difficult because now I have an unhappy young Soldier in my unit who's first impression of the Army is a terrible one. It's hard to break a new Soldier who's been screwed out the gate of that impression.

As for the Sikh. Sorry about your luck. If you're smart enough to get into medical school, then you should be smart enough to get all of this in writing. If you didn't, you have no one to blame but yourself. You have an obligation to meet. If you can't meet that "service" obligation, then you should have to pay on any loans that the DoD covered for you when you signed your contract.

I'm not trying to be an ass in this. I'm not the one who's getting screwed here. However, I can tell you this, the instant that we let standards slip a little bit for one or two people, is the instant that the entire squad slips. That leads to a company slipping, which hurts the Battalion, and their Brigade and so on and so forth. There's a reason why the standards are so strictly forced. When you stop forcing standards, you lose discipline and that leads to lost lives. It might seem/feel melodramatic for those on the outside looking in, and for the most part, it won't likely be quite as bad as it sounds...there is still more than just a grain of truth to that statement.

If this isn't the answer you're looking for, then I apologize. But it's the best that you will get (at this time) from me.

SteelersMongol
04-19-2009, 08:40 PM
Before I joined the military, I did my research. I really did. I knew about the height/weight/appearance requirements. I knew what the PT standard was. I don't have a father, or an uncle or a brother in the military. A couple of cousins who were born and raised in California...but I have met them all of 2 times in my entire life. I treated joining the military like I treated going to college. I did the research, weighed the options and made my choice.

I can't change what the recruiter said to them. If I'm a lawyer defending them, I'm going after their recruiter. In this case, most of these slick recruiters who are pulling the wool over the eyes of the prospective Soldiers (or whatever branch) are almost always smart enough not to put it in writing. If the Sikh's did get something in writing, then they have a real legal battle and some justification. Unfortunately, what they have is heresy from how long ago? That's why my post indicated that there is no debate in this. There is no argument. It's sad that there are some shady recruiters. It really is. I want to string those types of recruiters up by their balls because they aren't doing me (as a Soldier) any good whatsoever. In fact, they make my job that much more difficult because now I have an unhappy young Soldier in my unit who's first impression of the Army is a terrible one. It's hard to break a new Soldier who's been screwed out the gate of that impression.

As for the Sikh. Sorry about your luck. If you're smart enough to get into medical school, then you should be smart enough to get all of this in writing. If you didn't, you have no one to blame but yourself. You have an obligation to meet. If you can't meet that "service" obligation, then you should have to pay on any loans that the DoD covered for you when you signed your contract.

I'm not trying to be an ass in this. I'm not the one who's getting screwed here. However, I can tell you this, the instant that we let standards slip a little bit for one or two people, is the instant that the entire squad slips. That leads to a company slipping, which hurts the Battalion, and their Brigade and so on and so forth. There's a reason why the standards are so strictly forced. When you stop forcing standards, you lose discipline and that leads to lost lives. It might seem/feel melodramatic for those on the outside looking in, and for the most part, it won't likely be quite as bad as it sounds...there is still more than just a grain of truth to that statement.

If this isn't the answer you're looking for, then I apologize. But it's the best that you will get (at this time) from me.

Thank you. Sorry if I sounded little upset with my previous post. I guess I was little 2 tired 2 get your point last night. I was running around the whole city trying 2 take care of things here & there instead of trying 2 get some rest even though it was a Sunday. As 4 me, I'm very conservative when it comes 2 abide by the rules as my dad being a former officer in the military & my mom being a retired police officer. I just thought there could B something done 4 those people like these Sikh men who got caught between their religious beliefs & their own desire 2 B in the US military. :noidea: Thanks again 4 taking your time & making me C the point. :thumbsup:

BTW, HAPPY B'DAY. Wish U a nice birthday party :party: & lot of gifts with Cleveland stuff :present: . :hug:

SteelersinCA
04-19-2009, 08:55 PM
lot of gifts with Cleveland stuff :poop::poop::poop: :hug:

Fixed the Cleveland stuff for you!!!

stlrtruck
04-20-2009, 07:41 AM
I'm not trying to be an ass in this. I'm not the one who's getting screwed here. However, I can tell you this, the instant that we let standards slip a little bit for one or two people, is the instant that the entire squad slips. That leads to a company slipping, which hurts the Battalion, and their Brigade and so on and so forth. There's a reason why the standards are so strictly forced. When you stop forcing standards, you lose discipline and that leads to lost lives. It might seem/feel melodramatic for those on the outside looking in, and for the most part, it won't likely be quite as bad as it sounds...there is still more than just a grain of truth to that statement.


:iagree:

Well put XFL. It's the same as when we raise our children. We have standards for our house and if we allow one child to get away with something not to our standard, then the next child will think they can get away with that AND MORE.

When I joined the Navy, I knew what I was getting myself into at that moment. I think I had one of those rare recruiters that had full disclosure.

Our country has compromised a lot in the past 15-20 years. If we start to compromise our military, then we compromise our security and our freedom.

xfl2001fan
04-20-2009, 06:54 PM
Thank you. Sorry if I sounded little upset with my previous post. I guess I was little 2 tired 2 get your point last night. I was running around the whole city trying 2 take care of things here & there instead of trying 2 get some rest even though it was a Sunday. As 4 me, I'm very conservative when it comes 2 abide by the rules as my dad being a former officer in the military & my mom being a retired police officer. I just thought there could B something done 4 those people like these Sikh men who got caught between their religious beliefs & their own desire 2 B in the US military. :noidea: Thanks again 4 taking your time & making me C the point. :thumbsup:

BTW, HAPPY B'DAY. Wish U a nice birthday party :party: & lot of gifts with Cleveland stuff :present: . :hug:

No worries man. I got mad respect for you and nothing you've said in any of your posts has diminished that. As much as I respect the Sikh and their feelings, hard lines have to be drawn. There's a saying amongst those of us who serve. The military is not a Democracy, it's just there to protect one. I am confident that most non-service members (and by service-member, I include fireman, policeman, etc...) struggle with that one...because I know a lot of service-members who still struggle with it.

Thanx for the B-day wishes! Mostly, I've been getting softball gear for the league I coach/play in. I'm waiting on my bat to arrive (it's a $300 bat...but man, it turns me from a sub-par batter to a stellar one fast.)