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lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 10:40 AM
Wow, you managed to quote somebody elses writing and not bother giving credit to the source. Fortunately, we all know it's not you posting because there aren't grammar/spelling issues. The thoughts are complete, the sentence structure is correct and it's easy to understand.

Congratulations. Now, try coming up with your own thoughts and insights.



I don't know where you were raised at, but it's called bad manners, being rude, or acting like an asshat where I have been raised. talking smack is one thing...but this isn't smack talk between you and I as basketball players, this is meant to intelligently debate the merits of two superstars in the NBA today. Now, if we're on the court playing each other, talk sh!t and call names all day long. I don't care. There's no need for it in here.

My feelings aren't hurt because some punk on the internet with terrible writing skills called me a name. I just don't appreciate rudeness. I expect better from people around me. You have no grounds to stand on when you call me a moron and a dumbass. None. Pointing out the flaws in your (for lack of better words) argument doesn't mean I'm actually offended. I just thought you'd be above such petty childishness in an adults world.

Then again, maybe expecting you to act/type/write/talk like an adult is an unreal expectation on my part...and nothing more than a chidlish fantasy.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
right xfl..
i'm such a loser.. i guess holmes, parker, starks, clark, woodly and timmons to name a few think i'm just a lil punk.. guess thats why they keeping inviting me to go out and eat, go to bars and what not.. u ARE SO RIGHT

or what bout the times i was chillin with dc, or haha this is kind of a joke, but still famous, vanilla ice, LJ,

and y would i want to act??? i
and i can type and write and talk....

i bet i can go back and find posts of urs that u have misspelled and what not...

and since i'm such a moron and can't do anything right like u say.., then may i ask what ur occupation is???

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 11:00 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
right xfl..
i'm such a loser.. i guess holmes, parker, starks, clark, woodly and timmons to name a few think i'm just a lil punk.. guess thats why they keeping inviting me to go out and eat, go to bars and what not.. u ARE SO RIGHT

and y would i want to act??? i
and i can type and write and talk....

i bet i can go back and find posts of urs that u have misspelled and what not...

and since i'm such a moron and can't do anything right like u say.., then may i ask what ur occupation is???

Hey, I've got friends with those last names too.

It's one thing to have the occasional mis-spelling and such, but there is an obvious difference in writing capability between you and I. I am well aware that you can type, write and talk. Writing, typing and talking like an adult is what I was referring too.

As for what my occupation is. I'll gladly tell you.

I'm a Logistics Management Specialist. I am directly responsible for Food, Transportation, Supply, Property Accountability and Maintenance for over 3000 Soldiers in 20 units across the state of Ohio. I am directly responsible for ensuring that they get overseas with all the proper (newly upgraded) equipment when it's their time to go overseas and when it's time to come home, that they have everything they need (from a logistical standpoint) to return to life back at home. I'm also the Ammunition Manager, Duty Appointed Retention NCO (essentially a low-grade career counselor), Information Awareness Security Officer (Network Administrator, mostly specialized in software applications and network security) as well as a certified Combatives Instructor (though just for Level I.) I have a myriad of other minor duties that accompany the job description, to including advising the Colonel and his staff on the logistical readiness of all of his units.

The job description requires a bachelors degree (or equivelant in work experience.) Since I joined the military straight out of high school and began working on my family pretty much from the get go, I have never bothered to work on my civilian education, amassing a grand total of 9 semester hours of college. Which means I earned this job through hard work.

So, what exactly do you do that you (supposedly) get to hang out with the likes of NFL superstars?

MACH1
05-23-2009, 11:19 AM
Kobe's still better.

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 11:51 AM
.

As for what my occupation is. I'll gladly tell you.

I'm a Logistics Management Specialist. I am directly responsible for Food, Transportation, Supply, Property Accountability and Maintenance for over 3000 Soldiers in 20 units across the state of Ohio. I am directly responsible for ensuring that they get overseas with all the proper (newly upgraded) equipment when it's their time to go overseas and when it's time to come home, that they have everything they need (from a logistical standpoint) to return to life back at home. I'm also the Ammunition Manager, Duty Appointed Retention NCO (essentially a low-grade career counselor), Information Awareness Security Officer (Network Administrator, mostly specialized in software applications and network security) as well as a certified Combatives Instructor (though just for Level I.) I have a myriad of other minor duties that accompany the job description, to including advising the Colonel and his staff on the logistical readiness of all of his units.

The job description requires a bachelors degree (or equivelant in work experience.) Since I joined the military straight out of high school and began working on my family pretty much from the get go, I have never bothered to work on my civilian education, amassing a grand total of 9 semester hours of college. Which means I earned this job through hard work.

So, what exactly do you do that you (supposedly) get to hang out with the likes of NFL superstars?

well thats good for what u do for the military..

u don't have to beleive me that i get to hang out with superstars, b/c my family and friends know and have seen it with there eyes and what not

and for me, i am going to school to become a pharmacist

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 11:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyHuxiZDLus


this is the new nike commercial they made.. pretty funny

SteelersinCA
05-23-2009, 12:04 PM
I have a feeling Kobe and Lebron get along much better than most of us in this forum and would laugh at us for being retarded.

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 12:08 PM
I have a feeling Kobe and Lebron get along much better than most of us in this forum and would laugh at us for being retarded.

There are very few people that I don't get along with. Even then, that "not getting along" extends as far as the given thread goes. How you post in a given thread is how I try to treat you, treating each post, moment individually.

I don't know...they might shake their heads in shame/disgust.

Steel_12
05-23-2009, 12:25 PM
Lebron is a better passer and rebounder. Kobe can be a lockdown defender, but doesn't do that nearly as much, where as (this season) Lebron has been intensely focused on playing great defense. Prior to this season, Kobe's the better defender. Not anymore. Lebron is also the more versatile defender...as he can defend any position 1-4...and some smaller centers too.

LeBron is taller and stronger...he's supposed to be the better rebounder. I'm talking about effectiveness. LeBron's passing is phenominal where Kobe's is average. More versatile defender? LMAO...you're reaching now. Kobe can guard 1-3...Lebron can guard 1-4 because he's 3 inches TALLER than Kobe. If Kobe was 6'9, he'd be able to guard the 4 spot as well. ONE SEASON of playing defense doesn't make up for the first 5 seasons where LeBron didn't!!! You might be the only person to think LeBron plays better defense than Kobe (who's consistently on the all-defensive team).

ORLANDO IN 6

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 12:32 PM
LeBron is taller and stronger...he's supposed to be the better rebounder. I'm talking about effectiveness. LeBron's passing is phenominal where Kobe's is average. More versatile defender? LMAO...you're reaching now. Kobe can guard 1-3...Lebron can guard 1-4 because he's 3 inches TALLER than Kobe. If Kobe was 6'9, he'd be able to guard the 4 spot as well. ONE SEASON of playing defense doesn't make up for the first 5 seasons where LeBron didn't!!! You might be the only person to think LeBron plays better defense than Kobe (who's consistently on the all-defensive team).

ORLANDO IN 6

Unfortunately, there's a certain amount hype/reputation that goes into these MVP/All-star/All-defensive teams.

As for Lebron covering the 4, it's not just because he's taller, it's because he's actually big enough to play the 4. But a guy big enough to play the 4 should not have the speed/quickness to guard a 1/2. He does. He can play/guard any position 1-4. You want to discount his physicality...but you can't just ignore it. It factors into the "equation" when you are looking at who's good and who's not.

This season, Lebron played better defense than Kobe. Kobe is known as a lockdown defender because he can do it...but he's been slipping. Injuries, tired legs, whatever you want to call it...he's slipping. I'd take CP3/Wade as a starting defensive guard duo over Kobe and anyone other guard right now.

As for effectiveness, Lebron is a more effective player because he get's the rebounds and makes the passes. You can't just pick and choose, you have to look at the total picture...and you seem to be stuck on just Kobe's polish as an offensive shooter. Lebron James has averaged a higher FG% than Kobe has ever achieved in his career. Only once has Lebron not had a season (his rookier year) where his FG% was not higher than EVERY season by Kobe. That's effectiveness.

Lebron James AVERAGE FG%: 47.1%
Lebron James Career Low FG: 41.7% (rookies season)
Lebron James second worst FG: 47.2%

Kobe Bryants Average FG: 45.5%
Kobe Bryants Career Low FG: 41.7% (rookie season)
Kobe Bryants Career High FG: 46.9%

Lebron is the TOTAL package. Kobe, while a better shooter, isn't.

Edit - Stats provided by NBA .com
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/career_stats.html
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/career_stats.html

Did you know that Lebron James has averaged a better 3-point percentage (32.8%) than Michael Jordan did throughout his career (32.7%)? Food for thought...

Steel_12
05-23-2009, 12:46 PM
Unfortunately, there's a certain amount hype/reputation that goes into these MVP/All-star/All-defensive teams.

As for Lebron covering the 4, it's not just because he's taller, it's because he's actually big enough to play the 4. But a guy big enough to play the 4 should have the speed/quickness to guard a 1/2. He does. He can play/guard any position 1-4. You want to discount his physicality...but you can't just ignore it. It factors into the "equation" when you are looking at who's good and who's not.

This season, Lebron played better defense than Kobe. Kobe is known as a lockdown defender because he can do it...but he's been slipping. Injuries, tired legs, whatever you want to call it...he's slipping. I'd take CP3/Wade as a starting defensive guard duo over Kobe and anyone other guard right now.

As for effectiveness, Lebron is a more effective player because he get's the rebounds and makes the passes. You can't just pick and choose, you have to look at the total picture...and you seem to be stuck on just Kobe's polish as an offensive shooter.

Lebron is the TOTAL package. Kobe, while a better shooter, isn't.

I agree with your first statement.

LeBron is a freak athlete, I know this. But to make the case that he's a more versatile defender because he can guard the 4 when he's 3 inches taller than Kobe, isn't a strong case IMO.

How do you know if he played better defense than Kobe when BOTH were on the all-defensive team? That same team that you said doesn't mean too much. You would've had to watch all 164 games that both played in to determine that. Kobe is still playing great defense...take off the LeBron blinders! He still has the intensity so you can take the smaller CP3/Wade combo.

The total picture is that Kobe is better offensively and defensively...how is that not the total package? Like the dude from ESPN.com said, LeBron still has weaknesses in his game. Once he polishes his game to the level of Kobe, he'll be the best in the game. Until then, Kobe is the best since MJ.

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 01:05 PM
I agree with your first statement.

LeBron is a freak athlete, I know this. But to make the case that he's a more versatile defender because he can guard the 4 when he's 3 inches taller than Kobe, isn't a strong case IMO.

How do you know if he played better defense than Kobe when BOTH were on the all-defensive team? That same team that you said doesn't mean too much. You would've had to watch all 164 games that both played in to determine that. Kobe is still playing great defense...take off the LeBron blinders! He still has the intensity so you can take the smaller CP3/Wade combo.

The total picture is that Kobe is better offensively and defensively...how is that not the total package? Like the dude from ESPN.com said, LeBron still has weaknesses in his game. Once he polishes his game to the level of Kobe, he'll be the best in the game. Until then, Kobe is the best since MJ.


I've watched most of the Cavs teams...and many Lakers games. Kobe (particularly this season) has been resting defensively, concentrating on the offensive side of the ball...playing the hard nosed defense when the Lakers absolutely need a stop. He is more than capable of being a lock down defender...but he doesn't trust his teammates enough offensively to let them do more work.

As for Lebron, his athleticsim/size combo is what makes him a more capable defender. It's not Lebron's fault that he's as big as he is...and that Kobe is smaller. However, Lebron (like Kobe) makes the most out of his skill set/athleticism. Kobe's just had 7 more years in the league to polish up his game.

The total picture is that Kobe is a more skilled/polished shooter...but Lebron is better offensively and defensively. You want to ignore his size and athleticism...but then if that's the case, let's just take away DPOY from Dwight Howard...because the reason why he got it over James (#2 on the list) is because he's a few inches taller. If Kobe was the better defender, then why didn't he finish at #1 (ahead of Lebron) or #2 (just behind Dwight?)

tony hipchest
05-23-2009, 01:42 PM
this is a good thread. im glad i started it. :wink:

Steel_12
05-23-2009, 02:30 PM
I've watched most of the Cavs teams...and many Lakers games. Kobe (particularly this season) has been resting defensively, concentrating on the offensive side of the ball...playing the hard nosed defense when the Lakers absolutely need a stop. He is more than capable of being a lock down defender...but he doesn't trust his teammates enough offensively to let them do more work.

As for Lebron, his athleticsim/size combo is what makes him a more capable defender. It's not Lebron's fault that he's as big as he is...and that Kobe is smaller. However, Lebron (like Kobe) makes the most out of his skill set/athleticism. Kobe's just had 7 more years in the league to polish up his game.

The total picture is that Kobe is a more skilled/polished shooter...but Lebron is better offensively and defensively. You want to ignore his size and athleticism...but then if that's the case, let's just take away DPOY from Dwight Howard...because the reason why he got it over James (#2 on the list) is because he's a few inches taller. If Kobe was the better defender, then why didn't he finish at #1 (ahead of Lebron) or #2 (just behind Dwight?)

He didn't finish ahead of LeBron because LeBron had a better season defensively...according to voters. But that doesn't mean he's better defensively because of one season. Just like when Nash won those MVP awards...he didn't deserve them but he got them. Kobe is doing the same thing he's been doing for the past 10 years but people are used to it so they think he's "losing it". I'm not ignoring James' size or athleticism...when did I do that? Dwight Howard won DPOY for the same reasons all big men win DPOY...they get blocks and make it difficult for people to score.

How is LBJ better offensively? You can't be serious? He doesn't do anything better than Kobe on offense (well, pass the ball). Kobe's shots are way down BECAUSE he trusts his teammates. He's trusting them a little too much and that's why they are struggling to beat teams they handled easily in the regular season.

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 02:39 PM
Lebron James AVERAGE FG%: 47.1%

Kobe Bryants Average FG: 45.5%

Lebron is the TOTAL package. Kobe, while a better shooter, isn't.


Did you know that Lebron James has averaged a better 3-point percentage (32.8%) than Michael Jordan did throughout his career (32.7%)? Food for thought...

1st.. kind of not fair to compare kobe's fg avg and lebron's fg avg, to where kobe has played in the league for 12 seasons where lebron only 5.. so his avg's are going to look better than someone else that has beenin the league longer..

same thing bout lebron's 3 pt and mj.. mj career was long. and ur comparing a whole career 3 pt % on a 5 yr career percentage..

lets see how these perecentages look after another 6-8 yrs of lebron playing

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 03:06 PM
1st.. kind of not fair to compare kobe's fg avg and lebron's fg avg, to where kobe has played in the league for 12 seasons where lebron only 5.. so his avg's are going to look better than someone else that has beenin the league longer..

Wrong. Lebron has averaged more than ANY season that Kobe has attained. It is extremely relevant. Only in their Rookie seasons where they equal. After that, every season Lebron has always had a higher FG percentage than Kobe has ever attained. Kobe is a smoother shooter, but Lebron is the better scorer.

same thing bout lebron's 3 pt and mj.. mj career was long. and ur comparing a whole career 3 pt % on a 5 yr career percentage..

lets see how these perecentages look after another 6-8 yrs of lebron playing

Lebron has fired up more 3 pointers in his 6 year career than MJ did over his total career.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_stats.html
MJ: 581-1,778

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/career_stats.html
Lebron: 642-1,957

That's not a small sample size. In fact, Jordan never hit more than 20% in a single season until his 5th season.

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 03:12 PM
He didn't finish ahead of LeBron because LeBron had a better season defensively...according to voters. But that doesn't mean he's better defensively because of one season. Just like when Nash won those MVP awards...he didn't deserve them but he got them. Kobe is doing the same thing he's been doing for the past 10 years but people are used to it so they think he's "losing it". I'm not ignoring James' size or athleticism...when did I do that? Dwight Howard won DPOY for the same reasons all big men win DPOY...they get blocks and make it difficult for people to score.

How is LBJ better offensively? You can't be serious? He doesn't do anything better than Kobe on offense (well, pass the ball). Kobe's shots are way down BECAUSE he trusts his teammates. He's trusting them a little too much and that's why they are struggling to beat teams they handled easily in the regular season.

Apparently Lebron must have done something right then...because prior to this season, we can all admit that Lebron was not focused on playing D. He's a better defender right now. Now, if you ask me to compare both players first 6 seasons, Kobe gets the edge. But right now, Lebron is better defensively.

When you tell me that I can't use the 1-4 argument because Lebron is 3 inches taller, you are telling me to ignore size/athleticism. Lebron can guard the 4 because he's so big and strong...he can guard the 1-2 because he's so fast/quick. He can guard the 3 because he just should be. It matters because when a team has a dominant 4, Lebron can cover them, Kobe can't.

While Kobe might be taking fewer shot attempts, the rate at which he scores is still not as high as Lebrons. Between being a better rebounder, passer and a more efficient scorer, he is a better offensive player. Kobe knows how to set up for a great mid-range game, but Lebron still scores a larger portion of his shot attempts. That's something most Kobe fans can't get through their heads. It's not about who has the prettier jumper, it's about who scores on the most on a given number of attempts.

Lebron trusts his teammates more, which is why you see so many assists. He (the "point forward) scores more efficiently than Kobe (the SG) does...more complete.

Steel_12
05-23-2009, 03:59 PM
Apparently Lebron must have done something right then...because prior to this season, we can all admit that Lebron was not focused on playing D. He's a better defender right now. Now, if you ask me to compare both players first 6 seasons, Kobe gets the edge. But right now, Lebron is better defensively.

When you tell me that I can't use the 1-4 argument because Lebron is 3 inches taller, you are telling me to ignore size/athleticism. Lebron can guard the 4 because he's so big and strong...he can guard the 1-2 because he's so fast/quick. He can guard the 3 because he just should be. It matters because when a team has a dominant 4, Lebron can cover them, Kobe can't.

While Kobe might be taking fewer shot attempts, the rate at which he scores is still not as high as Lebrons. Between being a better rebounder, passer and a more efficient scorer, he is a better offensive player. Kobe knows how to set up for a great mid-range game, but Lebron still scores a larger portion of his shot attempts. That's something most Kobe fans can't get through their heads. It's not about who has the prettier jumper, it's about who scores on the most on a given number of attempts.

Lebron trusts his teammates more, which is why you see so many assists. He (the "point forward) scores more efficiently than Kobe (the SG) does...more complete.

So if LeBron doesn't have a good defensive season next year and Kobe does...who will be the better defender? It's not a yearly debate...it's in overall debate. Overall, Kobe is better defensively.

No I'm telling you that Kobe can't guard the 4 spot because he's not big enough, not because he's not versatile. Saying that LeBron can guard the 4 spot and Kobe can't doesn't make sense.

LeBron has the ball in his hands more than Kobe. They are different players. Kobe doesn't need to ball in his hands to creat shots for himself. LeBron either pulls up for a 3 or goes to the hole hard...mid-range game is non-existant! Kobe in his younger days did the same thing and was dunking on people left and right like LeBron does now. He can still get to the hole but prefers to shoot that sweet J (as you said) because it is so effective. Because LeBron is so fast and strong, he's damn near impossible to stop but that doesn't mean he's the best offensively because he still has limitations to his offensive game. There aren't any to Kobe's that's why I say he's better offensively.

Kobe isn't a passing guard...he's a TRUE SG. His job is to score, not distribute the ball. But he can do that if he wanted to because he's had numerous triple doubles and when he had to play PG a few years back, he did that well and avg. about 8 dimes a games for the time he played PG.

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 04:20 PM
So if LeBron doesn't have a good defensive season next year and Kobe does...who will be the better defender? It's not a yearly debate...it's in overall debate. Overall, Kobe is better defensively.
Then you and I have been discussing different things, because I believe that this year, Lebron is better. I can't argue overall, because while Kobe is nearing the end of his career, Lebron is just getting started.

No I'm telling you that Kobe can't guard the 4 spot because he's not big enough, not because he's not versatile. Saying that LeBron can guard the 4 spot and Kobe can't doesn't make sense.
Sure it does. Kobe can't do it. Lebron is big enough...and big men, normally, can't guard the 1's and 2's in the league. How big was Barkley when he played? He couldn't guard a 1 or a 2...and he was a great player. Lebron has the size of a 4 with the athleticism of a 1/2. That's why he's a more versatile defender. You choosing to ignore the obvious is what makes no sense.

LeBron has the ball in his hands more than Kobe. They are different players. Kobe doesn't need to ball in his hands to creat shots for himself. LeBron either pulls up for a 3 or goes to the hole hard...mid-range game is non-existant! Kobe in his younger days did the same thing and was dunking on people left and right like LeBron does now. He can still get to the hole but prefers to shoot that sweet J (as you said) because it is so effective. Because LeBron is so fast and strong, he's damn near impossible to stop but that doesn't mean he's the best offensively because he still has limitations to his offensive game. There aren't any to Kobe's that's why I say he's better offensively.
Kobe has a better midrange game. Despite that, Lebron is still able to score more efficiently (more points on less shots) than Kobe. This is "despite his limitations" and Kobe's "lack of limitations". Plus, when you consider that Lebron is also a better passer and rebounder, it equals a better overall offensive player.

Kobe isn't a passing guard...he's a TRUE SG. His job is to score, not distribute the ball. But he can do that if he wanted to because he's had numerous triple doubles and when he had to play PG a few years back, he did that well and avg. about 8 dimes a games for the time he played PG.

Must have been a short time at PG then...because his best season was with 6 assists a game. Lebron has averaged less than 6 once in his career. Lebron also has a better scoring average this season and over his career than Kobe does. Better offensive player.

Lebron in 6 seasons has 24 regular season and 3 post season Trip Dubs.
Kobe has what, 14?

Lebron = Better.

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 04:23 PM
and i don't rly look at stats between 23 and 24.. b/c the cavs asked lebron to do more than the lakers ask kobe to do...

if lebron had the team kobe has, all of his stats would be down, and visa versa, kobe's would be up if he was asked to do more..

but i think we can agree that both teams-when playing good teams-, lakers and cavs, are better off when kobe and lebron don't have 2 score 35+ points a game..

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 04:32 PM
Lebron in 6 seasons has 24 regular season and 3 post season Trip Dubs.
Kobe has what, 14?

Lebron = Better.

so going off ur formula here..

kobe has 3 rings and lebron has what, 0?

kobe=Better

and then that would mean that

dwight howard would be better than lebron... b/c lebron has yet to avg a double double for a yr.. unlike howard as been doing the past 5 yrs

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 05:07 PM
so going off ur formula here..

kobe has 3 rings and lebron has what, 0?

kobe=Better

and then that would mean that

dwight howard would be better than lebron... b/c lebron has yet to avg a double double for a yr.. unlike howard as been doing the past 5 yrs

I didn't bring up Triple Doubles, Steel 12 did. I merely responded to it.

If your math is right, then Robert Horry is better than MJ because he has 7 rings.

Rings is about TEAM. You don't seem to get that concept. It takes a team to win a championship. No matter how good one individual player is, it takes a team. MJ didn't do it without Scottie. Kobe didn't do it without Shaq. For that matter, Shaq needed D-Wade to get another one. Rings are not about individual players. Never has been, never will be.

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 06:26 PM
Rings is about TEAM. You don't seem to get that concept.

there is no WE in team.. but there is a ME

hahaha


and u right again.. i don't seem to get that concept.. i guess all of those times, where i took on the lead blocker, so the man behind can make the stop, or blocking downfield for my rb to get more yrds. or the bunts i did to move a runner into a scoring position so we can win..
i guess i was voted 1 of the team captains, by my fellow team-mates, my jr and sr yr was b/c i was so selfish and didn't help anyone out...

i guess i never got it.. :noidea:

tony hipchest
05-24-2009, 12:10 AM
and i don't rly look at stats between 23 and 24.. b/c the cavs asked lebron to do more than the lakers ask kobe to do...

if lebron had the team kobe has, all of his stats would be down, and visa versa, kobe's would be up if he was asked to do more..

..im not sure i get what youre saying... correct me if i am wrong.

if kobe (at the age of 23-24) had labrons current team he would try to score 50 points every night while the rest of the team just stood around and got out of hiw way. they would never make it past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

if labron had the team kobe had at the age of 23-24, he would hands down be heralded as the next magic johnson (only better), and him and shaq would rack up more championships than magic/abdul jabar.

MACH1
05-24-2009, 12:44 AM
Rings is about TEAM. You don't seem to get that concept. It takes a team to win a championship.

Then I guess you can't say that those three rings are shaqs. :rolleyes:

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 06:07 AM
there is no WE in team.. but there is a ME

hahaha


and u right again.. i don't seem to get that concept.. i guess all of those times, where i took on the lead blocker, so the man behind can make the stop, or blocking downfield for my rb to get more yrds. or the bunts i did to move a runner into a scoring position so we can win..
i guess i was voted 1 of the team captains, by my fellow team-mates, my jr and sr yr was b/c i was so selfish and didn't help anyone out...

i guess i never got it.. :noidea:

If you get it on the football field, then why don't you try applying it to basketball? There has never been an individual to win a championship. Kobe was on a better team. He was also second fiddle to a better player (1b to Shaq's 1a). If you replace Shaq with nearly anyone else, the Lakers don't win those rings. They had a lot of pieces in place...but the ultimate piece was Shaq.

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 06:11 AM
Then I guess you can't say that those three rings are shaqs. :rolleyes:

Shaq was the bigger reason why LA won those rings...when someone says "Kobe has three rings" I point out that it took Shaq to get them. Kobe didn't get them by himself.

Garnett (or Pierce) couldn't win a ring until they got together. Robinson didn't win without Duncan. Duncan needed more help to top the Pistons...who is another team where the sum of the parts has pretty much always been greater than the individual pieces.

Take Shaq away...and what has Kobe done? Kobe now has a team around him...though an inconsistent one and has a chance at winning another ring...and this time, he's the leader of the team. He'll have had a lot more to do with winning the next ring (if he gets one) than he did with his first three.

lilyoder6
05-24-2009, 09:25 AM
im not sure i get what youre saying... correct me if i am wrong.

if kobe (at the age of 23-24) had labrons current team he would try to score 50 points every night while the rest of the team just stood around and got out of hiw way. they would never make it past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

if labron had the team kobe had at the age of 23-24, he would hands down be heralded as the next magic johnson (only better), and him and shaq would rack up more championships than magic/abdul jabar.

we are talking right about right now... since thats what the arguement is about...

if lebron was on the lakers with gasol,odom, etc.. his stats would def be down, b/c he would actually have team-mates who usually can score on a daily basis...

if kobe was on the cavs,, his stats would be up, except prob for rebounds...

all i'm saying is that, if u had lebron and kobe do the exact same thing game in and game out for 1 yr.

it would break down as, lebron would have more rebounds, kobe would have more ppg.. and the assists would depend on the teams

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 10:03 AM
we are talking right about right now... since thats what the arguement is about...

if lebron was on the lakers with gasol,odom, etc.. his stats would def be down, b/c he would actually have team-mates who usually can score on a daily basis...

if kobe was on the cavs,, his stats would be up, except prob for rebounds...

all i'm saying is that, if u had lebron and kobe do the exact same thing game in and game out for 1 yr.

it would break down as, lebron would have more rebounds, kobe would have more ppg.. and the assists would depend on the teams

Lebron on the Lakers, his assists would go up. His points might go down...but I have a feeling Phil would know how to work him in.

Kobe on the Cavs, they don't win 60 games this season. A huge part of their victories revolves around the fact that Lebron looks to hit the open man when teams double up on him.

Steel_12
05-24-2009, 03:18 PM
Lebron on the Lakers, his assists would go up. His points might go down...but I have a feeling Phil would know how to work him in.

Kobe on the Cavs, they don't win 60 games this season. A huge part of their victories revolves around the fact that Lebron looks to hit the open man when teams double up on him.

Bullshit...Kobe always finds the open man...the other players on the Lakers, besides Gasol and occasionally Ariza, haven't been hitting anything. He doesn't force as much as he used to. People are still stuck on his selfish days...which are behind him. He takes over when he needs to...LeBron can't do that. If Mo Williams didn't keep them in the game, LeBron doesn't hit that shot. Until he has that Kobe/MJ killer mentality, he won't be on their level.

Switch the teams and the results would be the same...especially if he had a shooter like Mo Williams and a team that played defense behind him.

MACH1
05-24-2009, 04:17 PM
a team that played defense behind him.

Thats the key right there!

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 04:39 PM
Bullshit...Kobe always finds the open man...the other players on the Lakers, besides Gasol and occasionally Ariza, haven't been hitting anything. He doesn't force as much as he used to. People are still stuck on his selfish days...which are behind him. He takes over when he needs to...LeBron can't do that. If Mo Williams didn't keep them in the game, LeBron doesn't hit that shot. Until he has that Kobe/MJ killer mentality, he won't be on their level.

Switch the teams and the results would be the same...especially if he had a shooter like Mo Williams and a team that played defense behind him.
Speaking of Bullshit:

Lebron scored 32 points, had 5 assists, 4 rebounds and a steal up to that point.

Mo Williams: 19 points of 7 of 21 shooting and 1 of 6 from downtown. Mo Williams has been the PROBLEM in this series because he has shot like SHIT. You crack me up.

Lebron would have way more assists if HIS guys would hit their open shots as well.

Let's see how the "Clutch Stats" work out:
http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM
Lebron James averaged 7.7 points in the 4th quarter (despite sitting out a bunch of 4th quarters.)
Kobe Bryant: 7.3. That's right, he's not second or even third, he's 4th on the list.

Try again buddy. You're still living on Kobe's Hype...and that's OK.

Steel_12
05-24-2009, 05:29 PM
Speaking of Bullshit:

Lebron scored 32 points, had 5 assists, 4 rebounds and a steal up to that point.

Mo Williams: 19 points of 7 of 21 shooting and 1 of 6 from downtown. Mo Williams has been the PROBLEM in this series because he has shot like SHIT. You crack me up.

Lebron would have way more assists if HIS guys would hit their open shots as well.

Let's see how the "Clutch Stats" work out:
http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM
Lebron James averaged 7.7 points in the 4th quarter (despite sitting out a bunch of 4th quarters.)
Kobe Bryant: 7.3. That's right, he's not second or even third, he's 4th on the list.

Try again buddy. You're still living on Kobe's Hype...and that's OK.

How many points somebody scores in the 4th quarter doesn't mean they're clutch! You can't be serious. You just said LeBron sat out a bunch of 4th quarters so how can you be clutch in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd quarter? 82games.com is a joke anyway.

Mo might have been the problem for the series UP TO THAT POINT but he still helped keep them close to Orlando. What LeBron had UP TO THAT POINT didn't mean too much since his team was losing, does it? You crack me up too lol.

What hype? He won that game for his team last night with his CLUTCH play throughout the 4th quarter...not just one shot.

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 05:58 PM
How many points somebody scores in the 4th quarter doesn't mean they're clutch! You can't be serious.
Really? Got it.

You just said LeBron sat out a bunch of 4th quarters so how can you be clutch in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd quarter?

Despite sitting out 4th quarters (in the blowout wins...where he did more than enough early to warrant taking a break) throughout the season, when he had to play in the 4th quarter, he played at such an exceptionally high level, that he averaged more 4th quarter points than anyone in the league.

82games.com is a joke anyway.
82games.com is a joke? Why's that? Because the stats shown don't say what you want them to say? I can't help it that Lebron scored more in the 4th quarter and those guys tracked that. But I'll use the tool they've given me.

Mo might have been the problem for the series UP TO THAT POINT but he still helped keep them close to Orlando. What LeBron had UP TO THAT POINT didn't mean too much since his team was losing, does it? You crack me up too lol.

If Mo had not been a problem UP TO THAT POINT, then the Cavs probably would not have been losing. Lebron got them the lead and kept it close enough UP TO THAT POINT that when Mo FINALLY hit a few shots, it was enough. Then, he hit the game winner.

What hype? He won that game for his team last night with his CLUTCH play throughout the 4th quarter...not just one shot.

What? What about your opening line?

How many points somebody scores in the 4th quarter doesn't mean they're clutch! You can't be serious.

Either Lebron's points in the 4th (when he's needed to score) are clutch, or they're not. If it's not for Lebron, then it can't be for Kobe. You can't have it both ways. You crack me up.

Steel_12
05-24-2009, 06:15 PM
Despite sitting out 4th quarters (in the blowout wins...where he did more than enough early to warrant taking a break) throughout the season, when he had to play in the 4th quarter, he played at such an exceptionally high level, that he averaged more 4th quarter points than anyone in the league. 82games.com is a joke? Why's that? Because the stats shown don't say what you want them to say? I can't help it that Lebron scored more in the 4th quarter and those guys tracked that. But I'll use the tool they've given me. If Mo had not been a problem UP TO THAT POINT, then the Cavs probably would not have been losing. Lebron got them the lead and kept it close enough UP TO THAT POINT that when Mo FINALLY hit a few shots, it was enough. Then, he hit the game winner. What? What about your opening line? Either Lebron's points in the 4th (when he's needed to score) are clutch, or they're not. If it's not for Lebron, then it can't be for Kobe. You can't have it both ways. You crack me up.

My opening line isn't hypocritical...You can score your 7 points in the first 5 minutes of the 4th quarter and none the rest. What Kobe did last night was GREATNESS! More impressive than LeBron's shot. 82games.com doesn't prove anything with their meaningless stats. Kobe's points come in crunch time when his team needs him most. He wants the last shot and isn't willing to give it up...that's the difference between him and LBJ. LeBron needs that instinct...it's good to trust in your teammates but damn, you're the best player you take the last shot all the time (if possible). Mo is the reason they won the game. LeBron had all them points and built a nice lead...when the lead got down to less than 10, he should've taken over (since you claim he's the best and most efficient scorer).

Steel_12
05-24-2009, 06:22 PM
Let's see how the "Clutch Stats" work out:
http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM
Lebron James averaged 7.7 points in the 4th quarter (despite sitting out a bunch of 4th quarters.)
Kobe Bryant: 7.3. That's right, he's not second or even third, he's 4th on the list.

Try again buddy. You're still living on Kobe's Hype...and that's OK.

clicked on the link and it's funny how you failed to mention that Kobe played 55 less minutes than LeBron in the 4th quarter this year. HMMMMMMMMMMMM

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 06:35 PM
clicked on the link and it's funny how you failed to mention that Kobe played 55 less minutes than LeBron in the 4th quarter this year. HMMMMMMMMMMMM

Didn't think that less than a minute a quarter made that big of a difference. But that's fine.

There's 12 minutes in a quarter. So:

Lebron
7.7*12 = 92.4 580/92.4 = 6.27

Kobe
7.3*12 = 87.6 525/87.6 = 5.99

Hmm, the math still says Lebron is doing his thing...at a higher rate than Kobe and more efficiently too.

You clearly don't watch a lot of Cavs games, because if you did, you'd know that generally, Lebron doesn't play the first 4-6 minutes of the 4th quarter. So the (score 7 in the first 5 minuites) argument isn't really valid in this case.

Kobe wants the last shot and will force the last shot. The thing with Kobe is he's developed his skill set to do that well. Nothing wrong with that. Lebron wants to make the best basketball play possible. If it means drive and dish to the open man, so be it. He plays smart basketball whether it's the 1st quarter or the last 10 seconds. That's smart basketball instinct and it's who he is.

Steel_12
05-24-2009, 07:16 PM
Didn't think that less than a minute a quarter made that big of a difference. But that's fine.

There's 12 minutes in a quarter. So:

Lebron
7.7*12 = 92.4 580/92.4 = 6.27

Kobe
7.3*12 = 87.6 525/87.6 = 5.99

Hmm, the math still says Lebron is doing his thing...at a higher rate than Kobe and more efficiently too.

You clearly don't watch a lot of Cavs games, because if you did, you'd know that generally, Lebron doesn't play the first 4-6 minutes of the 4th quarter. So the (score 7 in the first 5 minuites) argument isn't really valid in this case.

Kobe wants the last shot and will force the last shot. The thing with Kobe is he's developed his skill set to do that well. Nothing wrong with that. Lebron wants to make the best basketball play possible. If it means drive and dish to the open man, so be it. He plays smart basketball whether it's the 1st quarter or the last 10 seconds. That's smart basketball instinct and it's who he is.

lol 55 minutes is 4 4th quarters + 7 minutes. You don't know what he would've done in those 4 1/2 quarters but good try though.

Kobe doesnt' play the first 4-6 minutes of the 4th either...but since LeBron had 4 1/2 more 4th quarters, maybe he does play in the first 4-6 minutes of the 4th lol...

There's smart basketball and then there's too unselfish. So you, as a fan, would be happy with Joe Smith, Wally or Delonte taking the last shot of the game? You can't really expect me to believe that. You would want your best player shooting the last shot if possible. LeBron could have a one on one matchup, drive to the hole and as soon as a defender makes a move towards him he passes the ball. In the 1-3 quarters, that's fine but you're SUPPOSEDLY THE SECOND BEST PLAYER ON THE PLANET and you pass the ball? Not a smart basketball decision...

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 07:30 PM
lol 55 minutes is 4 4th quarters + 7 minutes. You don't know what he would've done in those 4 1/2 quarters but good try though.

Kobe doesnt' play the first 4-6 minutes of the 4th either...but since LeBron had 4 1/2 more 4th quarters, maybe he does play in the first 4-6 minutes of the 4th lol...

There's smart basketball and then there's too unselfish. So you, as a fan, would be happy with Joe Smith, Wally or Delonte taking the last shot of the game? You can't really expect me to believe that. You would want your best player shooting the last shot if possible. LeBron could have a one on one matchup, drive to the hole and as soon as a defender makes a move towards him he passes the ball. In the 1-3 quarters, that's fine but you're SUPPOSEDLY THE SECOND BEST PLAYER ON THE PLANET and you pass the ball? Not a smart basketball decision...

They both played in like 67 fourth quarters (forget which and I'm not opening the link to review.) Lebron (like Kobe) sits when he's not needed. Those 55 minutes were needed...and I showed you the math that shows that Lebron still scores more in his time on the court than Kobe does in his.

Delonte is a 39.9 % 3-point shooter, Mo shot at 43.6%. I don't mind those guys taking the shot if they're wide open. Joe Smith connected on 49.6% of his shots...so as long as it's not a 3 ball (33.3%), I'm cool with it...because the odds are in his favor of hitting a wide open shot than Lebron hitting a contested shot. Even Wally at 41.1% from downtown isn't a bad option...though I am not a big fan of his (far too streaky).

Again, if you are asking whether I want a wide open shot from guys who connect at a damn high rate...or a contested shot by the BEST PLAYER ON THE PLANET (King James), I'll take the wide open shot.

Steel_12
05-24-2009, 07:36 PM
BEST PLAYER ON THE PLANET (Black Mamba).

Something we finally agree on :flap:

steeldawg
05-24-2009, 07:41 PM
both are beasts both are clutch and both can put a team on their back.....i coose them both for best player i cant decide

SteelersinCA
05-24-2009, 08:18 PM
Not to mention your link has Kobe with a better 3PT % and Ast % in your link!!! Interesting huh?

By the way, why don't you use their CLUTCH STATS LINK!!!! http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM Surprise surprise who is at the top there????? THE BLACK MAMBA!!!!!!!!! :wave:

SteelersinCA
05-24-2009, 08:24 PM
Oooooooh I like this 82games.com site. How about the stats vs "good" teams? http://www.82games.com/0809/COM1S11.HTM Take note Cleveland played 16 "good" teams, Lakers played 27. I LIKE this site!!!

MACH1
05-24-2009, 08:35 PM
Hey be careful, you wouldn't want to be accused of twisting stats in kobe's favor. :rolleyes:

SteelersinCA
05-24-2009, 08:42 PM
Well I don't know, now looking at their stats more carefully, I don't understand how each player has a different "game" # next to their name. For instance, James says 20 good games in one place 21 in another. I'm not sure this site is that reliable.

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 09:10 PM
Not to mention your link has Kobe with a better 3PT % and Ast % in your link!!! Interesting huh?

By the way, why don't you use their CLUTCH STATS LINK!!!! http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM Surprise surprise who is at the top there????? THE BLACK MAMBA!!!!!!!!! :wave:

Assisted%, not assist%, if you're going to try and throw these stats in my face...at least do it correctly.

What's funny is that you are looking at less than one point difference, and yet Lebron has 5+ more rebounds, 6+ More assists, a better 3 point percentage and a significantly higher FG%

You take your .8 point difference (in Kobe) ...I'll take the best player on the planet (James).

I'll get to your other posts in just a second though.

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 09:12 PM
Oooooooh I like this 82games.com site. How about the stats vs "good" teams? http://www.82games.com/0809/COM1S11.HTM Take note Cleveland played 16 "good" teams, Lakers played 27. I LIKE this site!!!

Kobe scores .7 points more...has 2.9 less rebounds and 2.4 less assists. Assists equal points scored. I'll still take Lebron (aka Best Player on the Planet)

MACH1
05-24-2009, 10:35 PM
Kobe up 2-1 and the other one down 1-2. :nana:

lilyoder6
05-24-2009, 10:37 PM
i would say that in game 2.. b4 lebron made the gamming winning shot...

he was 1-5 in the 4th qtr with like 2 points..
that is not being clutch when ur team needs u

SteelersinCA
05-24-2009, 10:40 PM
Assisted%, not assist%, if you're going to try and throw these stats in my face...at least do it correctly.

What's funny is that you are looking at less than one point difference, and yet Lebron has 5+ more rebounds, 6+ More assists, a better 3 point percentage and a significantly higher FG%

You take your .8 point difference (in Kobe) ...I'll take the best player on the planet (James).

I'll get to your other posts in just a second though.

Man, I never heard anyone say that was a clutch rebound or assist, but ok. According to the site you posted Kobe scores more points per game, against better competition than James. Don't matter if you win by 1 or 100, a win is a win, more points is more points in clutch situations (against better comp.). Just don't argue Lebron is more clutch when he isn't that's the point.

The announcers said that last second shot in Game 2 was only the 2nd game winning shot of his career, that's REAL clutch huh? Or how about he went nearly 3 full qtrs this game before making a jump shot? Ouch.

lilyoder6
05-24-2009, 10:51 PM
lebron "lebrick, quoting the great skip bayless" from the 3 pt.. 1-8

looking like J.R Smith a lil bit...
but J.R Smith would of looked like this
4-30.. hahaha

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 10:59 PM
Man, I never heard anyone say that was a clutch rebound or assist, but ok. According to the site you posted Kobe scores more points per game, against better competition than James. Don't matter if you win by 1 or 100, a win is a win, more points is more points in clutch situations (against better comp.). Just don't argue Lebron is more clutch when he isn't that's the point.

The announcers said that last second shot in Game 2 was only the 2nd game winning shot of his career, that's REAL clutch huh? Or how about he went nearly 3 full qtrs this game before making a jump shot? Ouch.

Yeah, I knew this game was gonna pop up. As if Kobe has never had a bad game when his team needed him...or a bad 4th quarter. Lebrons teammates are letting him down.

As for clutch rebound, yes...but they usually refer to it as an offensive rebound. It's not called a clutch assist, it's called a clutch play.

MACH1
05-24-2009, 11:04 PM
LeBrick...:toofunny:

He LeBricked it at the foul line too.

SteelersinCA
05-24-2009, 11:06 PM
Yeah, I knew this game was gonna pop up. As if Kobe has never had a bad game when his team needed him...or a bad 4th quarter. Lebrons teammates are letting him down.

As for clutch rebound, yes...but they usually refer to it as an offensive rebound. It's not called a clutch assist, it's called a clutch play.

And Kobe's teammates are helping him? Riiiight. I haven't seen Kobe have a miserable game like James has in the playoffs this year, have you?

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 11:11 PM
And Kobe's teammates are helping him? Riiiight. I haven't seen Kobe have a miserable game like James has in the playoffs this year, have you?

Game 7 against the Rockets, 14 points with 4 of 12 shooting. His team managed to help him out and finish off the series.

Game 4 against the Rockets, 15 points, 7 of 17 shooting in 35 minutes of play in a loss.

Game 3 against the Jazz (Lakers Loss) 18 points, 5 of 24 shooting.

SteelersinCA
05-24-2009, 11:14 PM
Critical distinction, Kobe was cold and had the smarts to stop shooting and not force up garbage shots. That's what makes Lebrons game so miserable, he threw up 60 shots and he shot terrible even factoring in the easy dunks he had. 12, 17, and 24, are far cries from 60.

lilyoder6
05-24-2009, 11:15 PM
LeBrick...:toofunny:

He LeBricked it at the foul line too.

hahaha..

i thought i would bring his nickname into account here.. lol

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 11:19 PM
Critical distinction, Kobe was cold and had the smarts to stop shooting and not force up garbage shots. That's what makes Lebrons game so miserable, he threw up 60 shots and he shot terrible even factoring in the easy dunks he had. 12, 17, and 24, are far cries from 60.

No, the difference is that in two of those games, his teammates bailed him out by playing well. Lebron doesn't have that going for him. Mo Williams shooting percentage this series is WAY down from his regular season. He's been missing wide open jumpers/three pointers. Only Delonte has added anything of value throughout the series. It's been all Lebron and nothing else.

Lebron doesn't have an Odom, Gasol or anyone else to help.

lilyoder6
05-24-2009, 11:21 PM
No, the difference is that in two of those games, his teammates bailed him out by playing well. Lebron doesn't have that going for him. Mo Williams shooting percentage this series is WAY down from his regular season. He's been missing wide open jumpers/three pointers. Only Delonte has added anything of value throughout the series. It's been all Lebron and nothing else.

Lebron doesn't have an Odom, Gasol or anyone else to help.

well i would say that when Z is on his game... he helps a lot.. like a gasol or odom would do...

and odom isn't always on his game... just like z... they disappear sometimes

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 11:22 PM
well i would say that when Z is on his game... he helps a lot.. like a gasol or odom would do...

and odom isn't always on his game... just like z... they disappear sometimes

How often does Odom disappear when Kobe isn't playing well?

SteelersinCA
05-24-2009, 11:26 PM
No, the difference is that in two of those games, his teammates bailed him out by playing well. Lebron doesn't have that going for him. Mo Williams shooting percentage this series is WAY down from his regular season. He's been missing wide open jumpers/three pointers. Only Delonte has added anything of value throughout the series. It's been all Lebron and nothing else.

Lebron doesn't have an Odom, Gasol or anyone else to help.

I thought you guys said Mo WIlliams is good and I believe in another post you had said Z had returned to "All-Star" form. So, if you really believe that, Lebron has just as much help as Kobe.

lilyoder6
05-24-2009, 11:28 PM
How often does Odom disappear when Kobe isn't playing well?

well are u talking about scoring points??? then if so how many points do u think is not disappearing..

whats ur def of disappearing, points, rebounds, etc?

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 11:30 PM
well are u talking about scoring points??? then if so how many points do u think is not disappearing..

whats ur def of disappearing, points, rebounds, etc?

Let's just say, when Kobe has a bad game (like in those three during the playoffs) between Odom, Gasol (and company) how often do they fail to reach their average points at the same time? Because right now, every Cav except West/James has been in Epic Fail mode (offensively) since we started the series. West has been a pretty decent defender for us...helping contain Hedo...who is a much larger player.

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 11:32 PM
I thought you guys said Mo WIlliams is good and I believe in another post you had said Z had returned to "All-Star" form. So, if you really believe that, Lebron has just as much help as Kobe.

Mo Williams had been good, until this series (and really, parts of the Atlanta series as well.) He has gone cold shooting...at the worst possible moment. Z has also lost his shooting touch...and as mentioned in the post above, he can't keep up with Howard when playing D. The matchup is just terrible.

SteelersinCA
05-24-2009, 11:36 PM
Haven't they done that in the previous season during the playoffs too? Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Much like the Lakers if Bynum doesn't step up, Orlando will out muscle them.

lilyoder6
05-24-2009, 11:37 PM
Let's just say, when Kobe has a bad game (like in those three during the playoffs) between Odom, Gasol (and company) how often do they fail to reach their average points at the same time? Because right now, every Cav except West/James has been in Epic Fail mode (offensively) since we started the series. West has been a pretty decent defender for us...helping contain Hedo...who is a much larger player.

well odom was avging 11.3 ppg during the season.. and the last 2 series, including this one, odom is avging 8.3 for both series..

lilyoder6
05-24-2009, 11:38 PM
Haven't they done that in the previous season during the playoffs too? Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Much like the Lakers if Bynum doesn't step up, Orlando will out muscle them.

i think that if bynum would fail, they still have gasol who plays center for them..

Steel_12
05-25-2009, 12:51 PM
Yeah, I knew this game was gonna pop up. As if Kobe has never had a bad game when his team needed him...or a bad 4th quarter. Lebrons teammates are letting him down.

As for clutch rebound, yes...but they usually refer to it as an offensive rebound. It's not called a clutch assist, it's called a clutch play.

What you don't seem to understand is that Kobe will take over a game to will his team to a victory. LeBron won't do that because he doesn't have it in him and because of that, he isn't on that level....YET! I will take Kobe every single time because he is a competitor and will do anything to get a win. That's why he's the best in the game. I don't want somebody who's going to be great in the first 3 quarters and nut up in the 4th. The Black Mamba is the best closer maybe ever and I am a WITNESS to that. You are too even though you hate him for what he did off the court...

xfl2001fan
05-25-2009, 01:15 PM
What you don't seem to understand is that Kobe will take over a game to will his team to a victory. LeBron won't do that because he doesn't have it in him and because of that, he isn't on that level....YET! I will take Kobe every single time because he is a competitor and will do anything to get a win. That's why he's the best in the game. I don't want somebody who's going to be great in the first 3 quarters and nut up in the 4th. The Black Mamba is the best closer maybe ever and I am a WITNESS to that. You are too even though you hate him for what he did off the court...

In this case, his infidelity has nothing to do with the argument. The argument is who is better between Kobe and Lebron. I'll take Lebron any day of the week.

xfl2001fan
05-25-2009, 04:23 PM
Happened upon this article while looking up Stats for a different thread:

It's a touch old, but the ideas still apply

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jones/060117
When talking about Lebron passing the ball:
Sometimes that means giving Donyell Marshall the chance to win the game with a 3, just like it meant Jordan had to give Bill Wennington the winning shot that night in 1995 when he dropped a double-nickel on the Knicks at Madison Square Garden. Or giving Steve Kerr the clinching shot in the '96 NBA Finals.
Wait, the greatest player to play the game passed up a last second shot? Say it isn't so!

Those moves didn't make MJ a shrinking violet, nor could anyone say the same about Bron Bron. He's not running from the ball in the clutch, no matter what he plans to do with the orange. Although he has made some poor decisions in the clutch -- like passing to Eric Snow on the final possession of the Portland game -- he never looks afraid. LeBron seems perpetually concerned with giving Cleveland its best chance to win. It just so happens that the Cavs' best chance at victory doesn't always mean his taking a shot.
Hmm...sometimes it's about making the smartest possible basketball play.

Talking about the killer instinct LeBron does or does not have obscures what makes him so great -- his understanding of the game. There's no question LeBron wants the last shot in games, and there's no question he is the man the Cavs look to for that shot. But the reason LeBron is who he is, a star so big I can hardly recall anyone referring to him by his last name, is that he's more concerned with the Cavs' taking the best shot, even if it doesn't roll off his fingers.

Again, best possible chance at victory...which is why, when we were looking at those clutch stats, though Kobe scored (less than) 1 point more than Lebron, Lebron averaged 5 more assists (which is worth 10 more points at a minimum.)

Where does that killer instinct come from? Malone's came from a dark place, one that made him the dirtiest player in the game this side of Ric Flair. Michael Jordan and Jerry West got theirs from an unhealthy hate for losing. Kobe's seems to originate from a palpable self-absorption, a trait that also happens to be the root of many of his professional and personal problems.

You can have your "killer instinct". I'll continue to have the best player on the planet play for the Cavs.

Steel_12
05-25-2009, 04:34 PM
Happened upon this article while looking up Stats for a different thread:

It's a touch old, but the ideas still apply

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jones/060117
When talking about Lebron passing the ball:

Wait, the greatest player to play the game passed up a last second shot? Say it isn't so!


Hmm...sometimes it's about making the smartest possible basketball play.



Again, best possible chance at victory...which is why, when we were looking at those clutch stats, though Kobe scored (less than) 1 point more than Lebron, Lebron averaged 5 more assists (which is worth 10 more points at a minimum.)



You can have your "killer instinct". I'll continue to have the best player on the planet play for the Cavs.

lol you can have the second best player on the planet...I'll take Kobe getting another ring. Sometimes it's about making the smart play and sometimes it's about taking your game and your team to the next level. I hear what you're saying and I agree to an extent but I would want the last shot to be from my best player. I bet Phil is kicking himself making Kobe a decoy (even though he won't admit it). IMO, Kobe has so many shots that he can make that you can't really say he's taking a bad shot....where LeBron wouldn't be comfortable taking a mid-range J to win the game. His two game winners that I've seen was a lay-up and that 3 the other night. I just think he can do more with his talent other than running past everybody or pulling up for a 3...until he does he won't be #1 to me.

SteelersinCA
05-25-2009, 04:36 PM
Most people in the Basketball know feel that Kobe has put the self absorption behind him. Of course I have NO CLUE who Bomani Jones is or how old that article is. Before anyone should start talking nonsense about where someones killer instinct comes from I would hope they had a chance to sit down and talk to the player. I'm not sure Bomani Jones is even a pimple on the basketball god's ass.

xfl2001fan
05-25-2009, 04:51 PM
Most people in the Basketball know feel that Kobe has put the self absorption behind him. Of course I have NO CLUE who Bomani Jones is or how old that article is. Before anyone should start talking nonsense about where someones killer instinct comes from I would hope they had a chance to sit down and talk to the player. I'm not sure Bomani Jones is even a pimple on the basketball god's ass.

The article was from like 06/07 time frame if I remember right. You may not know his name...but he brings up valid points. In all of this, we'll have to agree to disagree. You like Kobe and you can have him. I like Lebron...and I'll keep him. History won't care one iota about our choices or our arguments.

The thing with Kobe...he has had to make an effort to do so...for Lebron, it's a natural talent.

SteelersinCA
05-25-2009, 07:27 PM
Make an effort to do what? Everyone has their trials and tribulations to overcome. Neither are close to perfect.

xfl2001fan
05-25-2009, 07:33 PM
Make an effort to not be a self absorbed @sshat. To be more of a teammate. To be more inclusive...as opposed to the cold-blooded killer to everybody.

Kobe has perfected his game...Lebron has perfected the team game and is still working on his game.

MACH1
05-25-2009, 07:38 PM
Make an effort to not be a self absorbed @sshat. To be more of a teammate. To be more inclusive...as opposed to the cold-blooded killer to everybody.

Kobe has perfected his game...Lebron has perfected the team game and is still working on his game.

That's why Kobe is better and smarter.

xfl2001fan
05-25-2009, 08:22 PM
That's why Kobe is better and smarter.

Seriously? Are you that delusional? Lebron is the penultimate teammate from the get go. Unlike Kobe, he doesn't have to make any effort into changing that aspect of his persona.

Like Kobe, he continues to work on his game, but not at the detriment for smart team basketball. Kobe has worked to perfect the selfish skills that make him such a hard guy to guard. Lebron has improved on those skills as well, but has also worked on ensuring his court vision is tops, his passes are crisp and on point and still manages to score points like Kobe does. Of course, Lebron does it in fewer shots. That's why Lebron is better and smarter.

MACH1
05-25-2009, 08:35 PM
Winning shot of the game, who would you rather take it.

LeBrick or Kobe?

xfl2001fan
05-25-2009, 09:02 PM
Winning shot of the game, who would you rather take it.

LeBrick or Kobe?

How'd that work in Game 2? Oh yeah, Lebron took the shot and it was pretty.

5 seconds left in the game, who's hands do I want the ball in? Lebron. Even if he doesn't always take the shot, he'll make the smartest basketball play.

MACH1
05-25-2009, 09:03 PM
How'd that work in Game 2? Oh yeah, Lebron took the shot and it was pretty.

5 seconds left in the game, who's hands do I want the ball in? Lebron. Even if he doesn't always take the shot, he'll make the smartest basketball play.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while!

lilyoder6
05-25-2009, 11:50 PM
i've decided.. that if i was going to start a team, i am going to take dwight howard.

not too many gifted big men like him..and he has a superman cape

lilyoder6
05-25-2009, 11:52 PM
oh.. and too ever said that melo was better than kobe.. hahahaha

the man was non-existant tonight, and disappeared after the 1st in game 3...
he wants to be known as one of the best in the game, but he can't go hide like he did the past 2 games in the conference finals

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 05:10 AM
i've decided.. that if i was going to start a team, i am going to take dwight howard.

not too many gifted big men like him..and he has a superman cape

Gets in foul trouble easily though...and there is almost no polish to his game. He is a gifted athlete, but that's all he has. If he's more than 5 feet from the basket, he's almost useless on offense and on defense.

So, all that hate for Lebron when he scored 41 points in a loss and host 36% from the field...

The next night, Kobe hits 34 on 33% when his team failed him and needed him the most...and the other teams superstar (Melo) was bogged down with a Stomach Virus. Ouch.

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 05:22 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=Roundup-KobeLeBron

Who is better?
LeBron, only because of his leadership ability. What he's done and how he's been able to get a team of players up to seven years his senior to follow and believe in him the way the Cavs have (and the ease with which he seems to make it happen) put LBJ over Kobe as the better player right now. Not even Magic was this good a leader at this age. (Jackson)

This article is newer. LBJ had the nod 4-3 in this one.

revefsreleets
05-26-2009, 08:34 AM
Yeah, Howard is impressive, but he's two-dimensional, not a complete player.

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 08:51 AM
Gets in foul trouble easily though...and there is almost no polish to his game. He is a gifted athlete, but that's all he has. If he's more than 5 feet from the basket, he's almost useless on offense and on defense.

So, all that hate for Lebron when he scored 41 points in a loss and host 36% from the field...

The next night, Kobe hits 34 on 33% when his team failed him and needed him the most...and the other teams superstar (Melo) was bogged down with a Stomach Virus. Ouch.

he is a double double machine. and he gets his blocks... idc if he is a complete player or not, b/c he allows his team-mates take has many 3's as there hearts desire, and when they guard the 3, he will eat u in the paint..


and i wasn't the one hating on his game 3 except from the 3pt line... and there is no point of atking kobe in game 4.. b/c evryone will just switch sides, we defend kobe like u did lebron, and u atk kobe like others atked lebron...

it will be a back forth thing, evrytime the superstar does not perform..

revefsreleets
05-26-2009, 08:55 AM
I'm not sure I understand...the Magic have been smothering LeBron every game defensively, and it hasn't even really slowed him down.

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 08:58 AM
Let's add more fuel to the fire:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=GreatDebate-090518

WHO IS BETTER RIGHT NOW?

This is a bit of an unfair fight, as James is entering the peak of his prime and Bryant is at the tail end of his. Nonetheless, it's clear that you'd rather have the 24-year-old version of James than the 30-year-old version of Bryant. True, it's unfair, but life isn't fair.

His 31.76 PER was the third-best mark since the league began tracking individual turnovers, exceeded only by one Michael Jeffrey Jordan. Wait, only 1 guy has ever had a better PER? And that one guy isn't Kobe. Hmmm.

WHO HAS HAD THE BETTER CAREER?

Though LeBron is better at the moment, he still has a ways to go to catch Bryant in terms of career accomplishments. The greatest line in Bryant's résumé is his season-to-season consistency, and the only way James is going to catch him in this department is with at least another half-decade of excellence.Bit of a no-brainer...Kobe's been in the league longer and thus has been allowed more time to put his stamp on things.

Kobe has won three championships to LeBron's zero, of course, and although Shaquille O'Neal was the go-to guy on those teams, Bryant wasn't exactly a role player. Yup, Shaq was the 1a. Like I've been saying all along to you Kobenites. Kobe was good, but he wasn't the man for those Lakers teams...and now that he is, he has won exactly what Lebron has won.

LeBron has played only six seasons, so it's impossible for him to have matched Bryant's accomplishments just yet. He's off to a really good start, though: Already he has five All-Star appearances, three straight first-team All-NBA selections and four straight top-five MVP finishes. He's also led the league in PER three times, something Bryant hasn't done even once. There's a surprise. PER = Player Efficiency...and Kobe has never been that guy.

WHO HAS HAD THE BETTER PRIME?

We can't totally answer this question, of course, since we don't know how the upcoming seasons will play out. But looking back, we do have a tantalizing four-year period to examine: The time when both players were contemporaries, and at or near the top of their game. From 2005-06 through this season, both Bryant and James were in the top eight in PER, the top five in MVP voting and the top four in scoring each season. In addition to the MVP trophy, each won a conference championship and both may add another one in the next two weeks. Very nice period to compare.

Even in that comparison, though, James comes out a little ahead. Bryant's 2005-06 season was easily the best of his career; even so, James just edged him out for the PER crown that season (28.17 to 28.11, with Dirk Nowitzki slipping in between at 28.16). James has led the league in that department three of the past four seasons, in fact. Wow...Kobe's best season still doesn't compare to James best...or his second best.

Bryant finished with a better PER than James only once in that span, the 2006-07 season when his 26.13 beat out James's 24.56. Since then it's been all James, as he held a 29.15 to 24.09 edge last season, and a crushing 31.76 to 24.46 advantage this season. Similarly, James has had the better postseason PER in three of the four seasons, as well. Better in the regular season and post season three out of 4 times.

In the big-picture categories, we see a similar picture. James has consistently had better on-court versus off-court numbers over the four-year period, and his team had the better win-loss record in three of the four seasons. The one time it didn't was last season, and even then it comes with an asterisk -- James' Cavs put up a much better fight against the Celtics in the playoffs than Bryant's Lakers did. *GASP* You don't say. So did the Atlanta Hawks for that matter, how sad is that Lakers fans?

It's not total domination, but run through nearly every category and you'll hit the same conclusion -- three seasons out of four, the edge goes to LeBron.
Yeah, I know. Lebron = Best player on the planet.

SO WHO WINS?

In the final analysis, we're missing one key variable: Time. It's safe to say that James' peak value is greater than Bryant's. His three best PER marks would be the three best of Bryant's career, and in the coming seasons he may add several more similar seasons to that list.
Naturally. Time (and health) is everything.

Similarly, the debate over which player is currently superior isn't much of a debate anymore. Two seasons ago it made for a much livelier discussion, and even last season you could throw around some pretty strong arguments either way. But James' epic 2008-09 campaign pretty much terminated the conversation, and it's obvious to anyone not flying purple and gold flags off their cars that he's the best player in the league.
What's that, only Kobenites can't see it? Which is what I've been saying all along.

If James does stay on course, however, any remaining debate over Kobe versus LeBron will be put to rest in favor of James. In that case, we would move on pretty quickly to LeBron versus Michael.

But if he can't? Then it gets interesting, because there wouldn't be a clear-cut answer. Instead, the debate would likely linger -- LeBron's superior peak value versus Kobe's superior career value -- long after the careers (and commercials) of both have faded into history.
So basically, if Kobe wants to be remembered as better than Lebron in the long run, he needs to hope for a King James injury. Lebron vs MJ...that one will require a huge upgrade in to the teammates of James in order to happen...

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 09:01 AM
and i wasn't the one hating on his game 3 except from the 3pt line... and there is no point of atking kobe in game 4.. b/c evryone will just switch sides, we defend kobe like u did lebron, and u atk kobe like others atked lebron...

it will be a back forth thing, evrytime the superstar does not perform..

Yeah, I didn't feel like doing a multiple quote post when I did that (was making breakfast for the kids.) I know it wasn't you. I was just throwing that out there because someone else immediately set on Lebron for his "poor showing" in the loss. Figured I'd return the favor.

Now why Mo Williams guaranteed a victory I'm not sure...but you can bet Orlando's gonna be more fired up. If Mo don't show, I want him gone. :P

SteelersinCA
05-26-2009, 09:27 AM
If you read correctly, no one "set on Lberon" for his poor shooting, you blamed the rest of the team, I was simply pointing out the Lebron shot the same as everyone else. IN fact if you look close, I say it's easy to blame the rest of the team. That's a fact. Twist it however you wish. You can also look through countless of my other posts where I say neither Lebron nor Kobe will win it by himself and that is what they are both battling right now.

Are you going to point out any of the aspects they deem Kobe Better or just hype Lebron? What's funny is you spend 75% of your post jerking off to LBJ's PER, when he has had NO ONE to help him in 6 years. Just above it you slam Kobe about how the rings are Shaqs (wah, wah, wah) and then try to throw a PER in his face. The next corner you turn you'll be saying Kobe has Gasol, Odom and a myriad of other players that Lebron doesn't have. When and if Lebron gets his #2 watch his PER plummet. a #2 will cut into his stats.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=Roundup-KobeLeBron

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 10:28 AM
If you read correctly, no one "set on Lberon" for his poor shooting, you blamed the rest of the team, I was simply pointing out the Lebron shot the same as everyone else. IN fact if you look close, I say it's easy to blame the rest of the team. That's a fact. Twist it however you wish. You can also look through countless of my other posts where I say neither Lebron nor Kobe will win it by himself and that is what they are both battling right now.

Are you going to point out any of the aspects they deem Kobe Better or just hype Lebron? What's funny is you spend 75% of your post jerking off to LBJ's PER, when he has had NO ONE to help him in 6 years. Just above it you slam Kobe about how the rings are Shaqs (wah, wah, wah) and then try to throw a PER in his face. The next corner you turn you'll be saying Kobe has Gasol, Odom and a myriad of other players that Lebron doesn't have. When and if Lebron gets his #2 watch his PER plummet. a #2 will cut into his stats.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=Roundup-KobeLeBron

I have pointed out a number of times that Kobe is the better shooter. That's really about it.

Lebron's scoring will likely drop when he get's a #2...but his assists will likely be way up...making him an even bigger threat for the Triple Double game in and game out.

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 10:55 AM
bwhahah..

mo williams saying they are going to win the series.. good one mo, maybe u should learn how to shoot in the playoffs b4 u say anything

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 11:09 AM
SteelersinCA, The article you link only has two or three items that give credence to Kobe. His 1-on1 skills (and I'd still take Lebron over Kobe there...based on his physicality). They also said they wanted him in the last second. That's it. 1 on 1 skills? Can't win in the NBA 1 on 1...because it turns into 1 on 5.

All the other items had no value whatsoever. Unless you think them guessing who the better speller is means something?

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 11:11 AM
bwhahah..

mo williams saying they are going to win the series.. good one mo, maybe u should learn how to shoot in the playoffs b4 u say anything

I was just saying the same thing to some people here at work.

SteelersinCA
05-26-2009, 11:38 AM
I have pointed out a number of times that Kobe is the better shooter. That's really about it.

Lebron's scoring will likely drop when he get's a #2...but his assists will likely be way up...making him an even bigger threat for the Triple Double game in and game out.

Which will in turn drop his PER, correct? You can't compare PER when it's not an equal playing field. It's just another stat placed in a vacuum.

People don't like Kobe, fine by me, Lebron is more charismatic, fine by me. People whine all day to discount Kobe's 3 rings saying it was Shaq's teaam. The fact of the matter is this when Kobe score 81, or 63 he's selfish, when he scores only 20 he didn't carry his team. When Lebron scores 50 he's god's gift to basketball, when he only scores 20 it's the teams fault for not helping Lebron. That is the situation between Kobe and Lebron.

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 11:47 AM
Which will in turn drop his PER, correct? You can't compare PER when it's not an equal playing field. It's just another stat placed in a vacuum.

People don't like Kobe, fine by me, Lebron is more charismatic, fine by me. People whine all day to discount Kobe's 3 rings saying it was Shaq's teaam. The fact of the matter is this when Kobe score 81, or 63 he's selfish, when he scores only 20 he didn't carry his team. When Lebron scores 50 he's god's gift to basketball, when he only scores 20 it's the teams fault for not helping Lebron. That is the situation between Kobe and Lebron.

When Lebron scores 50, he's still dishing 7+ assists and getting 7+ rebounds. That's the difference. He's scoring his 50, but also keeping his teammates involved.

Kobe's PER (in the two years following Shaq) still wasn't in Lebron's range...and those were the years when he had the same level of teammates as LBJ has consistently had.

Lebron's PER was a career high this season (MJ-esque) despite the fact that this is the best team he's ever played with in Cleveland. Maybe you can explain the vacuum around that...because it seems to me that he stepped his game up even more this season. Varejao improved offensively (though that's not saying much). Z started hitting threes with consistency. Mo Williams came over and provided some additional scoring and Delonte played a steady hand on offense as well.

Unless you believe that Larry Hughes, Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall were better?

SteelersinCA
05-26-2009, 11:57 AM
No, but I'm quite sure you've argued in previous posts that Kobe has better weapons than Lebron, save me the trouble of digging it up ok? The vacuum is if Lebron doesn't score the Cavs lose, if Kobe doesn't score the Lakers can still win.

Let's not pretend that scoring 50 by Kobe or Lebron is a singular feat. But this plays in perfectly to what I just stated, when Lebron scores 50 he's gods gift, he keeps his team involved, blah blah blah. When Kobe scores 50 he's selfish, even though they aren't winning 50-48 and the rest of the team HAD to be involved, he's still not cast in the same light as Lebron, thanks for solidifying my point.

SteelersinCA
05-26-2009, 12:04 PM
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/01/19/kobe-v-lebron-per-doesnt-tell-the-entire-story/

Interesting article on the pitfalls of the vaunted PER.

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 12:09 PM
No, but I'm quite sure you've argued in previous posts that Kobe has better weapons than Lebron, save me the trouble of digging it up ok? The vacuum is if Lebron doesn't score the Cavs lose, if Kobe doesn't score the Lakers can still win.

Let's not pretend that scoring 50 by Kobe or Lebron is a singular feat. But this plays in perfectly to what I just stated, when Lebron scores 50 he's gods gift, he keeps his team involved, blah blah blah. When Kobe scores 50 he's selfish, even though they aren't winning 50-48 and the rest of the team HAD to be involved, he's still not cast in the same light as Lebron, thanks for solidifying my point.

You completely missed my point. Kobe gets his 81, or his 63. How many assists and rebounds does he have? Lebron was a rebound away from a Triple Double when he got his last 50. It's not about just scoring a bunch of points. That's all that you seem interested in. Kobe scores more, or his shot is prettier. At least, based on your arguments, that's all I am getting back from you.

Lebron scored more points this season than Kobe did, had more assists, more rebounds and did all of this while hitting a higher percentage of his shots. He was #2 in DPOY and #1 in MVP (and it wasn't close on that one.) Lebron is better.

I agree that PER is not the be all end all measurement...there is no such way to truly measure it. Still, at the end of the day, Lebron is better.

SteelersinCA
05-26-2009, 12:12 PM
You completely missed my point. Kobe gets his 81, or his 63. How many assists and rebounds does he have? Lebron was a rebound away from a Triple Double when he got his last 50. It's not about just scoring a bunch of points. That's all that you seem interested in. Kobe scores more, or his shot is prettier. At least, based on your arguments, that's all I am getting back from you.

Lebron scored more points this season than Kobe did, had more assists, more rebounds and did all of this while hitting a higher percentage of his shots. He was #2 in DPOY and #1 in MVP (and it wasn't close on that one.) Lebron is better.

So you are using 1 game to justify an entire argument? I'm using an overall perspective, I didn't miss your point I just thought it a weak argument to use the stats from 1 game. You are missing my point, they are examined from different shades of glasses.

It's easy to get more rebounds and have a higher shooting percentage when you spend 75% of your time in the paint. How many assists do you expect a guy to have that scores 81 pts!!!! Seriously???? Don't be retarded.

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 12:22 PM
So you are using 1 game to justify an entire argument? I'm using an overall perspective, I didn't miss your point I just thought it a weak argument to use the stats from 1 game. You are missing my point, they are examined from different shades of glasses.

It's easy to get more rebounds and have a higher shooting percentage when you spend 75% of your time in the paint. How many assists do you expect a guy to have that scores 81 pts!!!! Seriously???? Don't be retarded.

How many do you expect for a guy to get when he scores 50 points? How many people in the entire history of the NBA have ever had a 50-10 game? Kobe never came close to touching it.

As for rebounds/shooting percentage, seems to me that Lebron is making the smart basketball play then...as opposed to relying on a jumper. Not only does he shoot a higher percentage shot, but he picks up more fouls (allowing for even more points.)

You say that they are examined from different glasses...but I don't know that it's true. It's why Lebron has put up career averages unseen in quite some time...especially when you consider the pace of the game today. He scores, assists and rebounds. Kobe can score...and he does it well. And while he CAN pass the ball well and does have court vision...having skills and using them are two different things. Lebron uses them. That's why he's better.

SteelersinCA
05-26-2009, 12:31 PM
Never come close? He had a 49 pt 11 rebound game against Pho this year. 3 the year before, the year before that he had a game with 45 pts, 10 reb and 8 asst, the list goes on and on and on, you can check his stats. Never come close, gimme a break, good try. They are examined from different shades look at this argument, what more proof do you need?

Wait I know what's coming next you meant Assists right? OK OK. Never come close: 12/15/06 53 pts 8 assts 10 reb seems to be pretty close, I could look up more if you'd like.

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 12:56 PM
Well I stand corrected. (See, it's easy to admit I'm wrong about this.)

Doesn't change the fact that Lebron AVERAGES (all season long) better stats (collectively) than Kobe does.

SteelersinCA
05-26-2009, 01:23 PM
He should, he has a more integral role on his team than Kobe has on his. Stats don't tell the whole story though, because kobe averaged better stats than Shaq yet you still claim they were Shaq's rings, right?

revefsreleets
05-26-2009, 01:30 PM
Huh?

There are 82 games a year. Kobe's been playing for what, 13?

He's going to have the oddf game here and there where he approaches Lebron-like numbers.

But LBJ comes out every single night with the distinct possibility of triple doubling, or get close.

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 01:30 PM
Well I stand corrected. (See, it's easy to admit I'm wrong about this.)

Doesn't change the fact that Lebron AVERAGES (all season long) better stats (collectively) than Kobe does.

lebron should have more rebounds than a guard should have.. big boys are gonna have the big rebound number's

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 01:32 PM
I was just saying the same thing to some people here at work.

like why would u even think about saying that???

well at least there is some humor in the finals

revefsreleets
05-26-2009, 01:33 PM
lebron should have more rebounds than a guard should have.. big boys are gonna have the big rebound number's

Well, he PLAYS G half the time, so it's not like he's camped out under the basket.

I don't understand this...the things we're pointing out here should INCREASE the respect for what LBJ is doing, but you guys are trying to twist everything around to make it fit your argument.

When he's done, he'll probably pretty much re-write the record books in SEVERAL categories. Nobody has ever done ALL the things that LBJ can and does do, night in and night out. THAT is the point...

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 01:43 PM
lebron should have more rebounds than a guard should have.. big boys are gonna have the big rebound number's

Well, Kobe is a guard and should have the big assist numbers. Except Lebron beats him there too. Better rebounding, better assists, comparable scoring, but better shooting percentage.

Yup, better better better...as in Lebron is better.

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 01:44 PM
like why would u even think about saying that???

well at least there is some humor in the finals

The Cavs are my team...but that doesn't mean that I have to believe that Mo should be opening his mouth. Mo hasn't done squat this series. He shouldn't be talking. LBJ can talk...and I'm fine with it. Delonte West can talk...and I'm fine with it. But not Mo...not Wallace, not Wally, Gibson or anyone else on the team.

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 01:47 PM
He should, he has a more integral role on his team than Kobe has on his. Stats don't tell the whole story though, because kobe averaged better stats than Shaq yet you still claim they were Shaq's rings, right?

It's funny how everybody that covers basketball believes those rings had more to do with Shaq than Kobe...except for a few Kobe knob-slobberers. Since Shaq left, what's Kobe done again? Remind me, please. I've covered this. You have yet to provide much of anything that actually shows Kobe is better than Lebron. You nitpick at arguments and beat around the bush...because you refuse to admit/believe that Lebron is better. It's there for you (and the rest of the world) to see.

MACH1
05-26-2009, 02:48 PM
It's funny how everybody that covers basketball believes those rings had more to do with Shaq than Kobe...except for a few Kobe knob-slobberers. Since Shaq left, what's Kobe done again? Remind me, please. I've covered this. You have yet to provide much of anything that actually shows Kobe is better than Lebron. You nitpick at arguments and beat around the bush...because you refuse to admit/believe that Lebron is better. It's there for you (and the rest of the world) to see.

Ummm....Since lbj came into the league what has he done? Remind me again. That's what I thought NADDA

Steel_12
05-26-2009, 03:18 PM
Kobe is a TRUE Shooting Guard...his job is to SCORE!!! You can't expect him to have 8 dimes a game because that's not his role!!! What do ya'll not understand about that? Using the LeBron followers logic, Oscar Robertson is the best player of all-time. Even better than MJ because he's averaged a triple double or came close to it in multiple seasons. Because stats are the know all, tell all of who is the best...blah blah.

Steel_12
05-26-2009, 03:26 PM
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/01/19/kobe-v-lebron-per-doesnt-tell-the-entire-story/

Interesting article on the pitfalls of the vaunted PER.

lol that article is great and just shows how much PER doesn't mean that much when you factor in other things. If Kobe hadn't got traded from Charlotte, his game would've been even better by now. Scary!

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 04:28 PM
Ummm....Since lbj came into the league what has he done? Remind me again. That's what I thought NADDA

That's the point I've been trying to make though. Lebron has never had a Shaq...a Pippen or much of anything else. Kobe lovers tout his rings, but he's done exactly what Lebron has without Shaq. For that matter, MJ did the same without Pippen.

You tout the rings like it was all Kobe...but it wasn't even close to that.

Kobe is a TRUE Shooting Guard...his job is to SCORE!!! You can't expect him to have 8 dimes a game because that's not his role!!! What do ya'll not understand about that? Using the LeBron followers logic, Oscar Robertson is the best player of all-time. Even better than MJ because he's averaged a triple double or came close to it in multiple seasons. Because stats are the know all, tell all of who is the best...blah blah.

Yep, a shooting guard. Lebron can keep up with his scoring output and put up the assists and rebounds on a regular basis. Amazin that a small forward (or point forward as he's often referred to) can score with Kobe's regularity (better when you consider FG%) and still do more. How can you possible consider Kobe to be better when his only job is to score on offense and he isn't even better at scoring than Lebron?

Oscar Robertson should be considered when talking of the best all-time. Stats should be seriously considered when you talk best all time...because otherwise, Robert Horry (and his 7 rings) is the best all time. Significantly better than Kobe (or Lebron) could ever dream of being, right? Sorry, I don't buy into that logic.

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 04:47 PM
Well, Kobe is a guard and should have the big assist numbers. Except Lebron beats him there too. Better rebounding, better assists, comparable scoring, but better shooting percentage.

Yup, better better better...as in Lebron is better.

not necessarily.. kobe leans more toward a true shooting guard, to where he is looking to shoot and/or make plays.. and with the way the lakers offense is, the ball is moved around a lot, when they are playing good offense, so that could be another reason y his assists would be down..


he is not on the lvl like iverson is, where evrytime he touches the ball, it seems he is shooting the ball...

and i have given lebron the rebounds, he is big, and his body size can let him box out a lot better than kobe

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 04:49 PM
The Cavs are my team...but that doesn't mean that I have to believe that Mo should be opening his mouth. Mo hasn't done squat this series. He shouldn't be talking. LBJ can talk...and I'm fine with it. Delonte West can talk...and I'm fine with it. But not Mo...not Wallace, not Wally, Gibson or anyone else on the team.

i agree.. mo has of right now, doesn't have the right to talk, since he is boo-boo this series..

and the only thing i have a problem with delonte is, the way he looks, the corn rows, and the tats evrywhere,,, to me, he looks like a dufus... and don't help when he light tinted

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 04:55 PM
Well, he PLAYS G half the time, so it's not like he's camped out under the basket.

I don't understand this...the things we're pointing out here should INCREASE the respect for what LBJ is doing, but you guys are trying to twist everything around to make it fit your argument.

When he's done, he'll probably pretty much re-write the record books in SEVERAL categories. Nobody has ever done ALL the things that LBJ can and does do, night in and night out. THAT is the point...

all i see is xfl talking about lebron, and i throw in stuff when i can where i know lebron is better than kobe..

ur once in a while posts are cute, but xfl is doing all the work here...

and i am a big lebron fan, my repsect can't go higher for him.. just don't jump in w/o knowing anything..

and dan marino set record books, but did he ever get a ring, no...
not saying lebron won't win a championship, but i would suspect that most players would take a ring than break records..

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 05:00 PM
Yep, a shooting guard. Lebron can keep up with his scoring output and put up the assists and rebounds on a regular basis.

umm.. not that hard to keep up his rebounds while scoring since most of his rebounds are defensive rebounds,,

and u prob gonna say why kobe don't have more defensive rebounds then for some reason, and like i said above.. lebron's big size helps him a lot to get rebounds and to box out.. kobe's not that big, like a melo or lebron, harder for him to box out players who got like 25+ pounds on him

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 05:00 PM
i agree.. mo has of right now, doesn't have the right to talk, right now, since he is boo-boo this series..

and the only thing i have a problem with delonte is, the way he looks, the corn rows, and the tats evrywhere,,, to me, he looks like a dufus... and don't help when he light tinted

HAHAHA

I don't care what Delonte looks like, play some D...be a semi-steady player on O and I'm cool. If Mo/Z were to step up a little more, we'd be in great shape. IF. I hate that freaking word.

umm.. not that hard to keep up his rebounds while scoring since most of his rebounds are defensive rebounds,,

and u prob gonna say why kobe don't have more defensive rebounds then for some reason, and like i said above.. lebron's big size helps him a lot to get rebounds and to box out.. kobe's not that big, like a melo or lebron, harder for him to box out players who got like 25+ pounds on him
And yet, he still scores at a better frequency than Kobe does. This despite the fact that the Cavs play at a much slower pace than the Lakers do. (Personally, I'd like to see the Cavs get a more athletic Big so that they can run more...because that'd be a great offense!)

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=pac&seasonType=3&league=nba&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fteamstats%3fsort%3dpac%26seasonType %3d3%26league%3dnba

revefsreleets
05-26-2009, 05:03 PM
Yeah, WTF was I thinking posting all those stats and facts earlier?

It's all yours X...good luck!

Steel_12
05-26-2009, 05:36 PM
Yep, a shooting guard. Lebron can keep up with his scoring output and put up the assists and rebounds on a regular basis. Amazin that a small forward (or point forward as he's often referred to) can score with Kobe's regularity (better when you consider FG%) and still do more. How can you possible consider Kobe to be better when his only job is to score on offense and he isn't even better at scoring than Lebron?

Oscar Robertson should be considered when talking of the best all-time. Stats should be seriously considered when you talk best all time...because otherwise, Robert Horry (and his 7 rings) is the best all time. Significantly better than Kobe (or Lebron) could ever dream of being, right? Sorry, I don't buy into that logic.

Do you realize the difference between a True Shooting guard and a Point Forward? We might as well compare MJ and Magic...never seen that debate. AGAIN, LeBron has the ball in his hands MORE than Kobe. He's tasked to create shots for his teammates, Kobe isn't. Geez, why can't ya'll get that? Magic's statline is FAR more impressive than MJs because he was tasked to make something happen. When Kobe didn't have help, he avg. 35 points a game...the most since MJ so don't give me that bs about LeBron is better at scoring than Kobe. He doesn't have to do that now that his team is improved.

Oscar is considered as one of the best but the debate of the best ever is out of MJ and 3 other players...take your pick. The Big O isn't consistently in that debate. Rings has nothing to do with this argument and I've never mentioned rings as proof as to why Kobe is better. I can see with my own eyes that Kobe is the better player. So don't place false logic by my feet.

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 06:06 PM
Yeah, WTF was I thinking posting all those stats and facts earlier?

It's all yours X...good luck!

i'm not saying u can't debate..
but when u say "we" i just had a problem with it.. b/c we have 38 pages here.. and how many posts have u done in this thread???

i'm just saying the xfl has been doing the leg work here, with a few posts by u..

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 06:10 PM
Do you realize the difference between a True Shooting guard and a Point Forward? We might as well compare MJ and Magic...never seen that debate. AGAIN, LeBron has the ball in his hands MORE than Kobe. He's tasked to create shots for his teammates, Kobe isn't. Geez, why can't ya'll get that? Magic's statline is FAR more impressive than MJs because he was tasked to make something happen. When Kobe didn't have help, he avg. 35 points a game...the most since MJ so don't give me that bs about LeBron is better at scoring than Kobe. He doesn't have to do that now that his team is improved.

Oscar is considered as one of the best but the debate of the best ever is out of MJ and 3 other players...take your pick. The Big O isn't consistently in that debate. Rings has nothing to do with this argument and I've never mentioned rings as proof as to why Kobe is better. I can see with my own eyes that Kobe is the better player. So don't place false logic by my feet.

So the guy who's 1 job is to shoot the ball well is better than the guy who's job is to score (and does it as well as the "shooter"), rebound and assist.

I understand that you have Kobe loving goggles on and you refuse to listen to reason in this thread.

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 06:12 PM
HAHAHA

I don't care what Delonte looks like, play some D...be a semi-steady player on O and I'm cool. If Mo/Z were to step up a little more, we'd be in great shape. IF. I hate that freaking word.


And yet, he still scores at a better frequency than Kobe does. This despite the fact that the Cavs play at a much slower pace than the Lakers do. (Personally, I'd like to see the Cavs get a more athletic Big so that they can run more...because that'd be a great offense!)

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=pac&seasonType=3&league=nba&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fteamstats%3fsort%3dpac%26seasonType %3d3%26league%3dnba

it is hard sometimes to look at delonte and not laugh...
if is a big word.. and i hate when players say.. if we do this, or if we would of done that.. it's like stfu.. stop talking bout what u can or can't do.. and go play ball..

and the 2nd part.. how did me talking about defensive rebounding turn into scoring better???

and i agree.. that offense would be pretty sick

lilyoder6
05-26-2009, 06:18 PM
So the guy who's 1 job is to shoot the ball well is better than the guy who's job is to score (and does it as well as the "shooter"), rebound and assist.



in some ways that would be true, depending on the person..

in the game 4 of lakers and nugs... Anderson had a double double, and nene had a double double.. but are they better/going to be remembered"hof" like an iverson who just shoots the ball???

Steel_12
05-26-2009, 06:29 PM
So the guy who's 1 job is to shoot the ball well is better than the guy who's job is to score (and does it as well as the "shooter"), rebound and assist.

I understand that you have Kobe loving goggles on and you refuse to listen to reason in this thread.

So Magic/The Big O is better than MJ according to your logic...gotcha!

Kobe has PROVED he can score at will, if need be. When LeBron hits 40+ 9 straight games, 81, or 62 in 3 quarters (against a playoff team), holla at me. Kobe is the best scorer since MJ...I don't see how you can debate that. I guess those stats and facts I just spewed came from my Kobe loving goggles. But hey, I'm the one that refuses to listen to reason. Especially reasoning that suggests a 24 year old is the greatest player ever.

Your opinion = reason
My opinion = Kobe loving goggles

xfl2001fan
05-26-2009, 07:21 PM
Your opinion = reason
My opinion = Kobe loving goggles

Smartest thing you've said in this thread.

MACH1
05-26-2009, 08:04 PM
So Magic/The Big O is better than MJ according to your logic...gotcha!


What about Wilt the Stilt? He was pretty good. Or Mr. Logo Jerry West?

MACH1
05-26-2009, 11:18 PM
Looks like LeTurnover come up big again. Wow what a great player in crunch time. :flap:

revefsreleets
05-27-2009, 10:08 AM
Wow, that is some straight up hate. Why did he choke, because he missed a half court shot with 3 seconds left? Because he had 44 points, 12 boards and 7 assists? Got news for you, but NOBODY makes that shot at the buzzer. Not Magic, Not Byrd, not Jordan. Hardly a choke...

LBJ continues to dominate against top competition, which is made even more amazing by the fact that Orlando is doing everything in their power to shut him down.

lilyoder6
05-27-2009, 10:33 AM
Wow, that is some straight up hate. Why did he choke, because he missed a half court shot with 3 seconds left? Because he had 44 points, 12 boards and 7 assists? Got news for you, but NOBODY makes that shot at the buzzer.

LBJ continues to dominate against top competition, which is made even more amazing by the fact that Orlando is doing everything in their power to shut him down.

1st.. it was not a half court shot... just a deep 3pt...

2nd.. he did have 5/6 TO's in the 4th/OT and that is what mach is saying...

3rd.. yea lbj is dominating sooo much they his team is done 3-1

xfl2001fan
05-27-2009, 10:34 AM
His 8 turnovers (though hardly all his fault) didn't help, especially those late ones in the 4th/OT.

I am still more pissed with his supporting cast (particularly Mo/Z) for their lack of help.

lilyoder6
05-27-2009, 10:34 AM
while watching parts of the game yesterday, i asked myself...

if lebron is so called the best player in the league, then why is he not taking the foul shots, when orlando was getting T'd up?

u would think, the best player would take those shots

lilyoder6
05-27-2009, 10:35 AM
His 8 turnovers (though hardly all his fault) didn't help, especially those late ones in the 4th/OT.

I am still more pissed with his supporting cast (particularly Mo/Z) for their lack of help.

well mo did have 18 points.. not bad....

BUT, he did disappear during the 4th and OT

xfl2001fan
05-27-2009, 10:36 AM
3rd.. yea lbj is dominating sooo much they his team is done 3-1

Because his TEAM is doing nothing to help him. West is the only guy with any kind of steady help and he's supposed to be the 3rd or 4th option on offense (with Z) behind Lebron and Mo.

Mo isn't doing it, Z isn't doing it...Wally/Gibson/Pavlovic aren't doing it. Wallace/Varejao aren't offensive threats and can't contain Howard or keep up with Lewis consistently on D.

xfl2001fan
05-27-2009, 10:39 AM
well mo did have 18 points.. not bad....

BUT, he did disappear during the 4th and OT

Don't give me that crap. Mo had 18 points, but 10 of those came in the first quarter, and 8 of those were FT/Techincal FT. He was 0-3 from downtown and 5-15 from inside the arc. Not bad my arse. He was terrible.

revefsreleets
05-27-2009, 10:42 AM
Because they have a 90+% FT shooter in Mo Williams (91.2%, fifth best in the league). That's pretty weak...are you saying he's not the best player in the league because he's not the best FT shooter?

Long 3? Jesus, dude, it was a 38 footer. A 3 is 23'9". Half court is 47.

xfl2001fan
05-27-2009, 10:42 AM
Don't remember which thread it was in...but this link helps prove what I thought was right:

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290526019

Look at Daniel Gibson's points and his FG/3pt selection in the box score.

His 2-5 3ptM/A and 2-5 FGM/A is the same...they roll those 3 point numbers up in with the FGM/A. So Lebron's numbers were better than I thought in our G3 loss.

lilyoder6
05-27-2009, 10:45 AM
Because they have a 90+% FT shooter in Mo Williams (91.2%, fifth best in the league). That's pretty weak...are you saying he's not the best player in the league because he's not the best FT shooter?

Long 3? Jesus, dude, it was a 38 footer. A 3 is 23'9". Half court is 47.

well.. it was still not a half court shot like u said...

and i'm just saying, u think the best player in the league, would want to take those shots..

how many did mo miss from the T's

lilyoder6
05-27-2009, 10:47 AM
Don't give me that crap. Mo had 18 points, but 10 of those came in the first quarter, and 8 of those were FT/Techincal FT. He was 0-3 from downtown and 5-15 from inside the arc. Not bad my arse. He was terrible.

That is WHY, i said he disappeared in the 4th and OT....

look at whole comment, not just the 1st part...

revefsreleets
05-27-2009, 10:48 AM
Patently absurd. You want your best FREE THROW shooter taking those shots, not necessarily your best overall player. I'd say the two are mutually exclusive on most teams, not just the Cavs.

Man, you haters really let your hate blind you...

lilyoder6
05-27-2009, 10:49 AM
Because his TEAM is doing nothing to help him. West is the only guy with any kind of steady help and he's supposed to be the 3rd or 4th option on offense (with Z) behind Lebron and Mo.

Mo isn't doing it, Z isn't doing it...Wally/Gibson/Pavlovic aren't doing it. Wallace/Varejao aren't offensive threats and can't contain Howard or keep up with Lewis consistently on D.

i could see that. when the 1st 3 baskets the magic had in OT, Howard got dunks...

Z was doing nice in the beginning, but he disappeard like mo did later in the game..

revefsreleets
05-27-2009, 10:53 AM
What's worst and most telling is bench points. The Cavs are actually pretty deep, but they are getting ZERO production off the bench.

If that changes, they can win the next 3. That's the key, IMO.

lilyoder6
05-27-2009, 10:54 AM
i highly doubt, that the cavs are going to win 3 games in a row... i know it's possible, and i agree if they get more helo from the bench, they will win a game..

but it's very hard 2 win 3 games in a row

revefsreleets
05-27-2009, 11:01 AM
What they have going for them: That impressive win record at home. They can probably win 2 more at home playing the way they played last night.

What they have going against them: Take away James last second three, and this series is already over.

They just don't match up well against the Magic. But, like I said, either of these teams are better than anything the West has to offer, so you're watching the real finals right now.

xfl2001fan
05-27-2009, 11:17 AM
That is WHY, i said he disappeared in the 4th and OT....

look at whole comment, not just the 1st part...

He disappeared after the 1st quarter. 18 points on 24 shots is worse than "not bad."

MACH1
05-27-2009, 02:25 PM
Wow, that is some straight up hate. Why did he choke, because he missed a half court shot with 3 seconds left? Because he had 44 points, 12 boards and 7 assists? Got news for you, but NOBODY makes that shot at the buzzer. Not Magic, Not Byrd, not Jordan. Hardly a choke...

LBJ continues to dominate against top competition, which is made even more amazing by the fact that Orlando is doing everything in their power to shut him down.

Its not hate. Its pointing out the truth. Besides I kinda like the guy.

MACH1
05-27-2009, 02:28 PM
i highly doubt, that the cavs are going to win 3 games in a row... i know it's possible, and i agree if they get more helo from the bench, they will win a game..

but it's very hard 2 win 3 games in a row

Stick a fork in them, there done. They might win one more game.

xfl2001fan
05-27-2009, 02:58 PM
Stick a fork in them, there done. They might win one more game.

The three guys I talk sports with the most at work are fans of the Lakers, Celtics and Suns. When they saw me, I picked up my stash of plastic forks and shook it at them.

Steel_12
05-27-2009, 04:51 PM
What they have going for them: That impressive win record at home. They can probably win 2 more at home playing the way they played last night.

What they have going against them: Take away James last second three, and this series is already over.

They just don't match up well against the Magic. But, like I said, either of these teams are better than anything the West has to offer, so you're watching the real finals right now.

The regular season home record doesn't mean too much anymore. Especially since Orlando has already beaten them in Cleveland this series. The matchups will stay a problem and Orlando will close them out at home in game 6.

Both teams better than the West? NO way...either L.A. or Denver wins the title.

MACH1
05-27-2009, 08:52 PM
The three guys I talk sports with the most at work are fans of the Lakers, Celtics and Suns. When they saw me, I picked up my stash of plastic forks and shook it at them.

If the Lakers lose tonight, I think they're done too. :banging:

lilyoder6
05-27-2009, 11:42 PM
What they have going for them: That impressive win record at home. They can probably win 2 more at home playing the way they played last night.

What they have going against them: Take away James last second three, and this series is already over.

They just don't match up well against the Magic. But, like I said, either of these teams are better than anything the West has to offer, so you're watching the real finals right now.

thats y the lakers had a winning record against both teams in the reg season....

and the lakers had the 2nd best record in the reg season.. OK....

xfl2001fan
05-28-2009, 05:44 AM
Regular season means nothing now. You can't game plan (effectively) in the regular season against any one opponent...and if you do, you find yourself losing a lot of games around that one opponent.

How Clutch was Kobe in the 4th? I've never seen a more clutch decoy. :flap:

lilyoder6
05-28-2009, 07:30 AM
Regular season means nothing now. You can't game plan (effectively) in the regular season against any one opponent...and if you do, you find yourself losing a lot of games around that one opponent.

How Clutch was Kobe in the 4th? I've never seen a more clutch decoy. :flap:


well i don't know when kobe hit his 4 FT's

but kobe doesn't have too many bad 4th's than lebron does

revefsreleets
05-28-2009, 08:34 AM
LBJ may be having the most dominant playoff series by a single player ever.

EVER.

And he's still being disrespected.

Amazing.:doh:

MACH1
05-28-2009, 09:10 AM
That's why he's down 1-3. :doh: Now thats dominate.

Soon to be LeFishing

SteelersinCA
05-28-2009, 09:47 AM
Regular season means nothing now. You can't game plan (effectively) in the regular season against any one opponent...and if you do, you find yourself losing a lot of games around that one opponent.

How Clutch was Kobe in the 4th? I've never seen a more clutch decoy. :flap:

How many "clutch passes" did he make? Remember when you said those were clutch plays? I'm pretty sure he had some in the 4th or is LBJ the only one capable of those? I also remember the announcers repeatedly commenting on how he was drawing the defense to him and hitting the open shooter. He also had some "clutch rebounds" in the 4th. Those glasses really are different shades for Kobe and Lebron, huh?:noidea:

Front page of ESPN: The NBA's best closer let his teammates close out Denver in Game 5. L.A. can finish off the Nuggets on Friday.

From the article: No play exemplified the Lakers' unselfishness and fluid ball movement more than their last field goal of the night. Nursing a five-point lead with a little more than a minute remaining, the Lakers worked the ball around the perimeter with a beautiful reversal. With the shot clock winding down, the rock landed in Bryant's hands. He elevated for a 3-point attempt, but on his way up, Bryant instead decided to hit an open Odom under the basket for a layup and the foul.

"Kobe did an unbelievable job of getting everyone else involved," Walton said. "He had a lot of faith in his teammates tonight."

xfl2001fan
05-28-2009, 10:06 AM
Oh my gosh...did you guys not see the :flap: smiley that indicates I was joking. Settle down. I said (in the NBA thread) that I didn't watch the second half of the game and couldn't comment on it.

SteelersinCA - So touchy. I guess if I was touting the second best player on the planet (Kobe) and couldn't admit he's not the best...I'd be a little touchy too.

SteelersinCA
05-28-2009, 10:45 AM
Not about being touchy it's about keeping you consistent. I don't consider it clutch but wanted to make sure you did.

xfl2001fan
05-28-2009, 12:15 PM
Not about being touchy it's about keeping you consistent. I don't consider it clutch but wanted to make sure you did.

That's what I'd say if I was you. :flap:

SteelersinCA
05-28-2009, 12:19 PM
LBJ may be having the most dominant playoff series by a single player ever.

EVER.

And he's still being disrespected.

Amazing.:doh:

I don't think he's being disrespected outside of the context of Kobe vs. Lebron. At least not anymore than Kobe is. I said many many posts ago, we are really splitting hairs in this argument. I think Kobe and Lebron are both better than MJ was. Crucify away!

xfl2001fan
05-28-2009, 01:20 PM
I don't think he's being disrespected outside of the context of Kobe vs. Lebron. At least not anymore than Kobe is. I said many many posts ago, we are really splitting hairs in this argument. I think Kobe and Lebron are both better than MJ was. Crucify away!

Now this is an interesting argument to make. I won't crucify you...because I'm way to curious.

What is your reasons for believing that Kobe is better than MJ? Seriously, I won't be spitting fire and such here. I'm genuinely interested to here this...because this isn't something that you hear very often.

revefsreleets
05-28-2009, 01:25 PM
That's why he's down 1-3. :doh: Now thats dominate.

Soon to be LeFishing

Wow...just wow.

James is averaging 42 points a game. 7.3 assists. 7.3 boards. I'm not sure any player has ever had a stat line like that in any playoff series. Ever. And the Magic are a great team, a really good defensive team, and they are doing everything in their power to shut him down, and he is virtually unstoppable.

Just as a fan, it's a joy to watch this kid work. It's an amazing accomplishment. I feel sorry for curmudgeonly people who can't stand in awe of a remarkable achievement. You're really missing something special.

xfl2001fan
05-28-2009, 01:38 PM
Lebron has scored more in the last 4 games than any player has scored in the first 4 games of any series, ever. Plus the 7/7 asissts/rebounds. Individually, there hasn't been any better. Unfortunately, it takes a team to win in the playoffs.

revefsreleets
05-28-2009, 01:47 PM
Beyond the obvious (being a Cavs fan), I hope, simply as a basketball fan, that the Cavs can stay alive in this series, just to see LeBron play a little more.

SteelersinCA
05-28-2009, 02:16 PM
Now this is an interesting argument to make. I won't crucify you...because I'm way to curious.

What is your reasons for believing that Kobe is better than MJ? Seriously, I won't be spitting fire and such here. I'm genuinely interested to here this...because this isn't something that you hear very often.

Might not be something you hear often, but most people are afraid to say anyone is better than MJ, I am not.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?STORY_ID=12690
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/220000/is_kobe_bryant_a_better_basketball.html?cat=14

There's not much Jordan did better than Kobe does except leadership. Kobe is a better shooter, ball handler, passer, more creative, and probably a better athlete. Is he as successful as Jordan, no way. If anything I definitely think he deserves to be in the discussion. I feel Lebron needs to be as well. The players surrounding these guys are by far an away better than the people surrounding Jordan. Can you see Bill Lambeer guarding Kobe, LBJ or D-wade? Those guy don't hold a candle to the type of defensive players the players these days play against.

I guess we could get all philosophical and say you have to look at them relative to the people they played with, but the converse is also true. Just like Fran Tarkenton in his prime would be demolished by James Harrison or Troy Polamalu, on a certain level it's not a fair comparison because the game and it's players change over time.

I guess I feel the league's players as a whole are on a whole different level now and Kobe and Lebron make them their b*tches. Kobe might never average more points than MJ, but I guarantee he ends up with more All Star appearances all NBA teams and the like.

SteelersinCA
05-28-2009, 04:27 PM
Another article from today's ESPN. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=broussard_chris&page=MJShadow-090528

Steel_12
05-28-2009, 07:28 PM
Might not be something you hear often, but most people are afraid to say anyone is better than MJ, I am not.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?STORY_ID=12690
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/220000/is_kobe_bryant_a_better_basketball.html?cat=14

There's not much Jordan did better than Kobe does except leadership. Kobe is a better shooter, ball handler, passer, more creative, and probably a better athlete. Is he as successful as Jordan, no way. If anything I definitely think he deserves to be in the discussion. I feel Lebron needs to be as well. The players surrounding these guys are by far an away better than the people surrounding Jordan. Can you see Bill Lambeer guarding Kobe, LBJ or D-wade? Those guy don't hold a candle to the type of defensive players the players these days play against.

I guess we could get all philosophical and say you have to look at them relative to the people they played with, but the converse is also true. Just like Fran Tarkenton in his prime would be demolished by James Harrison or Troy Polamalu, on a certain level it's not a fair comparison because the game and it's players change over time.

I guess I feel the league's players as a whole are on a whole different level now and Kobe and Lebron make them their b*tches. Kobe might never average more points than MJ, but I guarantee he ends up with more All Star appearances all NBA teams and the like.

I said Kobe will be better than MJ and XFL "was done with me" lol...I think Kobe will be better by the end of his career. I don't think he is now.

SteelersinCA
05-28-2009, 11:24 PM
Different opinions make us all great.

tony hipchest
05-29-2009, 12:11 AM
37-14-12

led (both teams) in all categories- points, rebounds, and assists.

i dont care what team one roots for. that is just sick.

SteelersinCA
05-29-2009, 01:32 AM
this is the first time you saw a glimpse of killer instinct in Lebron. It was impressive. He showed it briefly after one basket, but it looked good.

xfl2001fan
05-29-2009, 06:00 AM
37-14-12

led (both teams) in all categories- points, rebounds, and assists.

i dont care what team one roots for. that is just sick.

This

Killer instinct, and not just in one shot, or the final moment...but all game long. He wanted/needed this bad. Now that Mo's shown up, the Cavs look like they should look...it just sucks that they waited until down 3-1 to do so.

lilyoder6
05-29-2009, 07:38 AM
i didn't watch game .. but i see lebron was sick...

good for him.... he took over, when down, but like u say xfl.. to bad they were down 3-1

revefsreleets
05-29-2009, 11:14 AM
I've been watching basketball for 30 years, and I have never seen anything like that. He just basically took the ball and played one on 5. He single-handedly forced Howard out of the game, and just dared the Magic to stop him.

The result: 32 straight Cavs points directly or indirectly from James. They weren't sure, but I'd be willing to wager that's never been done before either.

This kid is just doing unprecedented things night after night, and he's only 24. Amazing.

MACH1
05-29-2009, 02:55 PM
I've been watching basketball for 30 years, and I have never seen anything like that. He just basically took the ball and played one on 5. He single-handedly forced Howard out of the game, and just dared the Magic to stop him.

The result: 32 straight Cavs points directly or indirectly from James. They weren't sure, but I'd be willing to wager that's never been done before either.

This kid is just doing unprecedented things night after night, and he's only 24. Amazing.

I'd say he has a ways to go yet. Impressive but Hardly unprecedented.

He was basketball's unstoppable force, the most awesome offensive force the game has ever seen. Asked to name the greatest players ever to play basketball, most fans and aficionados would put Wilt Chamberlain at or near the top of the list.

As Oscar Robertson put it in the Philadelphia Daily News when asked whether Chamberlain was the best ever, "The books don't lie."

The record books are indeed heavy with Chamberlain's accomplishments. He was the only NBA player to score 4,000 points in a season. He set NBA single-game records for most points (100), most consecutive field goals (18) and most rebounds (55). Perhaps his most mind-boggling stat was the 50.4 points per game he averaged during the 1961-62 season--and if not that, then perhaps the 48.5 minutes per game he averaged that same year.

He retired as the all-time in career points with 31,419, which was later surpassed by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Karl Malone and Michael Jordan. He is tops in rebounds with 23,924. He led the NBA in scoring seven years in a row. He was the league's top rebounder in 11 of his 14 seasons. And as if to prove that he was not a selfish player, he had the NBA's highest assist total in 1967-68.

But the most outstanding figures are his scoring records; Most games with 50+ points, 118; Most consecutive games with 40+ points, 14; Most consecutive games with 30+ points: 65; Most consecutive games with 20+ points: 126; Highest rookie scoring average: 37.6 ppg; Highest field goal percentage in a season: .727. And with many of these, the player in second place is far behind. His name appears so often in the scoring record books that his name could be the default response any time a question arises concerning a scoring record in the NBA.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

steelerdave1969
05-29-2009, 05:20 PM
There is NO Comparison between these 2 players... Kobe gets it done on a nightly basis where James is just a here one day and gone the next on his shots and I hope that Orlando finishes the bum up tomorow night... He Aint God Like He Thinks... So LaBron Just Needs To Down To Earth....and I look forward to seeing them go out as of saturday night in Orlando

xfl2001fan
05-29-2009, 07:51 PM
There is NO Comparison between these 2 players... Kobe gets it done on a nightly basis where James is just a here one day and gone the next on his shots and I hope that Orlando finishes the bum up tomorow night... He Aint God Like He Thinks... So LaBron Just Needs To Down To Earth....and I look forward to seeing them go out as of saturday night in Orlando

How insightful. Now wipe off your chin (Kobe left a mess there) and carry on. It's amazing how "here one day gone the next" he's been in this series, huh?

He's only averaged 40.8 points (on 50% shooting) to go with his 8.6 rebounds and 8.2 assists.

What a bum he must be.

Whereas Mr. Nightly Basis is averaging 33.8 points, 5.8 rebounds and 5 assists on 45.9% shooting.

Why bother comparing. Clearly the numbers show what you are....err...maybe not...but whatever. You are (obviously) the gold standard of all things basketball. Are you, by chance related to Tim Lumber?

Lebron - 2 games greater than 50% shooting
Kobe - 2 games = to 50% shooting

Lebron - 1 game less than 40% shooting
Kobe - 1 game less than 40% shooting

Lebron - 2 game at/near 45% (44.8, 45.8) shooting
Kobe - 2 games above 46%

Looks like they've both been fairly consistent with only 1 really off night in the shooting department.

Have you ever met Lebron? Do you read minds? I'm just trying to figure out how some arrogant internet jockey (from Whittier NC) can possibly know that Lebron thinks he's God. You amuse me. Once you've cleaned up your face, come on back and play.

revefsreleets
05-30-2009, 05:00 AM
The biggest problem with the opposing "logic" here is that this is only about scoring.

It's not.

James didn't just score a bunch of points. He controlled the game. He played defense. He pulled down boards. He dished the rock. That stat line was 37 points AND 14 rebounds AND 12 assists. Complete player in ALL facets of the game. At 24. And the best is yet to come...

MACH1
05-30-2009, 12:21 PM
The biggest problem with the opposing "logic" here is that this is only about scoring.

It's not.

James didn't just score a bunch of points. He controlled the game. He played defense. He pulled down boards. He dished the rock. That stat line was 37 points AND 14 rebounds AND 12 assists. Complete player in ALL facets of the game. At 24. And the best is yet to come...

Yep, He's only going to get better.

Steel_12
05-30-2009, 04:39 PM
The biggest problem with the opposing "logic" here is that this is only about scoring.

It's not.

James didn't just score a bunch of points. He controlled the game. He played defense. He pulled down boards. He dished the rock. That stat line was 37 points AND 14 rebounds AND 12 assists. Complete player in ALL facets of the game. At 24. And the best is yet to come...

No it isn't just about scoring...have you read the thread? Kobe had 35, 6 and 10 last night (12-20) and he didn't have to have the ball in his hands 90% of the time. It's easy to get stats when you have the ball in your hands ALL of the time. It was impressive but it has been done before. Kobe was just as impressive last night as James was the other night. He didn't have to try to take over the game, it just came natural. Funny how the pro-Kobe people can give James his due (except for the guy that said James was a bum) but the James ass sniffers don't have a single good thing to say about Kobe.

For some dumb reason, they aren't doubling LeBron and forcing the ball out of his hands. Big mistake...

Another disturbing trend in this series is that Howard gets NO RESPECT as the Defensive POY. It blatantly obvious that LeBron is getting ALL of the calls. He made contact with Howard every time and they call the foul on Howard even though his hands are straight up. I wouldn't even be happy with the way Cleveland is playing if I were ya'll.

Steel_12
05-30-2009, 04:41 PM
This

Killer instinct, and not just in one shot, or the final moment...but all game long. He wanted/needed this bad. Now that Mo's shown up, the Cavs look like they should look...it just sucks that they waited until down 3-1 to do so.

Even with Mo scoring, ya'll were down 1 going into the 4th. Orlando is the better team.

xfl2001fan
05-30-2009, 04:48 PM
Another disturbing trend in this series is that Howard gets NO RESPECT as the Defensive POY. It blatantly obvious that LeBron is getting ALL of the calls. He made contact with Howard every time and they call the foul on Howard even though his hands are straight up. I wouldn't even be happy with the way Cleveland is playing if I were ya'll.

I can tell you that (overall) I haven't been happy with the way Cleveland has been playing. I know your comment wasn't directed at me...but it should be obvious by my postings that I haven't been impressed.

That being said, as bad as we've done, we've only been outscored by 2 points. So it's not nearly as bad as it seems. If Mo/Z continue to produce like they did 2 nights ago (you know, actually hitting the open shots), we could be the 9th team to come back from a 3-1 deficit in NBA history.

As far as Howard is concerned...what about all the Elbows he has thrown that haven't been called? The refs are equally stupid where he is concerned...and it's been noted by nearly every sportswriter just how terrible they've been.

Even with Mo scoring, ya'll were down 1 going into the 4th. Orlando is the better team.

Which is when James took over (like Superstars do). James had the energy needed because Mo was making his shots (for a change) as was Z. Where we were at in the beginning of the 4th wasn't nearly as important as where we were at the end of the 4th. Orlando isn't the better team...especially if Mo/Z are back to their regular season form (hitting the many open shots they get.) When those two aren't hitting open shots consistently...it becomes the Lebron-Show...which no team can pull off at this level. The Lakers were losing when it was just Kobe...the Cavs lose when it's just Lebron.

lilyoder6
05-30-2009, 05:33 PM
i finally saw the 4th commercial of the two.. and hahaha it's funny as hell like the others..

and watching SC this morning.. they had the puppets do a lil SC opening with them doing the theme song

Steel_12
05-30-2009, 05:51 PM
I can tell you that (overall) I haven't been happy with the way Cleveland has been playing. I know your comment wasn't directed at me...but it should be obvious by my postings that I haven't been impressed.

That being said, as bad as we've done, we've only been outscored by 2 points. So it's not nearly as bad as it seems. If Mo/Z continue to produce like they did 2 nights ago (you know, actually hitting the open shots), we could be the 9th team to come back from a 3-1 deficit in NBA history.

As far as Howard is concerned...what about all the Elbows he has thrown that haven't been called? The refs are equally stupid where he is concerned...and it's been noted by nearly every sportswriter just how terrible they've been.



Which is when James took over (like Superstars do). James had the energy needed because Mo was making his shots (for a change) as was Z. Where we were at in the beginning of the 4th wasn't nearly as important as where we were at the end of the 4th. Orlando isn't the better team...especially if Mo/Z are back to their regular season form (hitting the many open shots they get.) When those two aren't hitting open shots consistently...it becomes the Lebron-Show...which no team can pull off at this level. The Lakers were losing when it was just Kobe...the Cavs lose when it's just Lebron.

The only elbows that I've seen him throw is when he get a rebound...you should know that big men are taught to clear the area when they get a board. That's nothing in comparison as to what the refs are doing to Howard. LeBron is gettin all of the calls but Howard should get some as well.

What I'm sayin is either way it goes, ya'll are in a dogfight...whether Mo scores or not. That 1 on 5 garbage won't work tonight so if the refs don't play a major factor in the game tonight, Orlando should close this series out.

Steel_12
05-31-2009, 12:11 PM
LeBron is Kobe 3 years ago!!! LMAO At least Kobe wasn't a sore loser though. Kobe called out his team and they went and got him Gasol...maybe LeBron needs to do the same.

KeiselPower99
05-31-2009, 12:22 PM
Well guess this thread is dead now huh?? LeBron is the most overrated player in any sport I have ever seen.

fansince'76
05-31-2009, 12:23 PM
LeBron is Kobe 3 years ago!!! LMAO At least Kobe wasn't a sore loser though.

No, he just squawked, bitched, demanded a trade and threw a temper tantrum befitting a 3-year-old. :coffee:

xfl2001fan
05-31-2009, 12:37 PM
HEEHAW Well guess this thread HEEHAW is dead now huhHEEHAW?? LeBron is the HEEHAW most overrated player in any HEEHAW sport I have ever seen.HEEHAW

Yeah...because averaging More than 38 points, 8 assists and 8 rebounds is a terrible thing. Keep posting like a jack@ss though. Too funny.

Steel_12
05-31-2009, 12:47 PM
No, he just squawked, bitched, demanded a trade and threw a temper tantrum befitting a 3-year-old. :coffee:

And what resulted from that? This is his second straight trip to the finals!!! lol...I swear ya'll will never give that man his due.

xfl2001fan
05-31-2009, 01:02 PM
And what resulted from that? This is his second straight trip to the finals!!! lol...I swear ya'll will never give that man his due.

Seems to me like he gave Kobe his due. He acted like a spoiled brat...and it has been recognized.

Fire Haley
05-31-2009, 01:08 PM
The Browns board is cracking me up...



Just another Cleveland choke job, you'd think we'd be used to this by now.

It just never ends...... Words pretty much can't express how bummed out I am right now.

I feel like I've watched my best friend die from cancer for two weeks ... that's pretty much how bummed out I am.

This is turning into quite the year for Evil Empire teams, with obnoxious, fair-weather, front-runner fans bases. Steelers win the Super Bowl...

KeiselPower99
05-31-2009, 02:47 PM
Yeah...because averaging More than 38 points, 8 assists and 8 rebounds is a terrible thing. Keep posting like a jack@ss though. Too funny.

HAHA. Lets be honest. LeBron needs a team around him. He is overrated in the fact that everything he does is media worthy. Is he a great player? Yes. But you cant win all by yourself.

MACH1
05-31-2009, 03:03 PM
Yeah...because averaging More than 38 points, 8 assists and 8 rebounds is a terrible thing. Keep posting like a jack@ss though. Too funny.

And we all know how stats win you championships. :doh:

xfl2001fan
05-31-2009, 06:57 PM
HAHA. Lets be honest. LeBron needs a team around him. He is overrated in the fact that everything he does is media worthy. Is he a great player? Yes. But you cant win all by yourself.

The fact that he can do all this without a "team" makes him overrated? Your logic is flawed. He's one star...and everyone else is a role player. Kobe has Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard has Lewis/Hedo, Lebron has...Mo Williams? A guy was passed over as an all-star selection twice this season...

Since when are "great" players overrated anyways? When you say someone is overrated...you'd think they were less than what people say they are. So he's great...what's better than great?

And we all know how stats win you championships. :doh:

And picking up on HEEHAW posting, we get MACH1. I never said that stats win championships. He says Lebron is overrated. How so? He personally carried his team to a Finals, lost (in 7 games) to last years champion...and carried his team 6 games against this years likely champion.

MACH1
05-31-2009, 07:21 PM
LeFishing........http://dygytalworld.ehost-services139.com/forums/images/smilies/fishing.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_42w5-R0zz2g/SEVoaWrmclI/AAAAAAAABOs/m6V9-5TP92w/s400/ksmith_fishin20_450_080525cavs.jpg

fansince'76
05-31-2009, 07:25 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_42w5-R0zz2g/SEVoaWrmclI/AAAAAAAABOs/m6V9-5TP92w/s400/ksmith_fishin20_450_080525cavs.jpg

Looks like Brady Quinn and Kenny the Jet have both put on some weight! :pig: :toofunny:

KYsteelfan
05-31-2009, 08:13 PM
regardless of the result in the east finals, LeBron is still the best. He is an all around better player. Kobe can finish, and shoot like none other, but Lebron is great at just about everything. he just needs a team around him

revefsreleets
06-01-2009, 08:17 AM
Well, looks like Cleveland truly IS cursed. They just can't finsih.

BUT the Magic are the best team in B-ball. The best we can do is see how Kobe's #'s stack up against LeBron's...

MACH1
06-01-2009, 09:23 AM
4 rings to zip. Thats all that counts.

revefsreleets
06-01-2009, 09:30 AM
That kind of thinking is flawed. That would be like saying that Doug Williams > Dan Marino because he has more rings.

xfl2001fan
06-01-2009, 10:21 AM
4 rings to zip. Thats all that counts.

That kind of thinking is flawed. That would be like saying that Doug Williams > Dan Marino because he has more rings.

You're missing the most important part here Revs. Where did the 4th ring come from? I knew he won 3 when Shaq was there...don't recall the Lakers winning anything since then though.

fansince'76
06-01-2009, 11:19 AM
4 rings to zip. Thats all that counts.

Actually that number is still at 3, and they were won on the coat tails of the most dominant big man of this generation and one of the top 3 or 4 centers that have ever played the game....

revefsreleets
06-01-2009, 11:34 AM
First principles. Rings are NOT the only mark of a champion. there have been plenty of exceptional players, people playing at the very highest level, who have not won championships.

And there are scores of shitty players who DO win plenty of rings.

That argument is a red herring.

xfl2001fan
06-01-2009, 11:59 AM
First principles. Rings are NOT the only mark of a champion. there have been plenty of exceptional players, people playing at the very highest level, who have not won championships.

And there are scores of shitty players who DO win plenty of rings.

That argument is a red herring.

Rev, you're wasting your time. I've tried to explain that point a number of times to the Kobenites. I've tried to reason with them. It's useless. I really don't know why I put the effort in that I did...because they don't listen to reason. They don't listen to logic. They hear what they want to hear and read what they want to read. Everything else is either ignored or deflected away.

The_WARDen
06-01-2009, 12:14 PM
First principles. Rings are NOT the only mark of a champion. there have been plenty of exceptional players, people playing at the very highest level, who have not won championships.

And there are scores of shitty players who DO win plenty of rings.

That argument is a red herring.

actually, having a ring is the very definition of a champion. Can't be a champion without a ring....

Now, I agree that there are a lot of great players without rings...but they are just that - great players not champions.

xfl2001fan
06-01-2009, 12:44 PM
actually, having a ring is the very definition of a champion. Can't be a champion without a ring....

Now, I agree that there are a lot of great players without rings...but they are just that - great players not champions.

Still, being a champion doesn't make you a great player. That's the actual point he was making. Kobe's three rings (not 4 as one n00b put it) was a result of a great team. While Kobe played well, Shaq was still the main focus teams had to contend with.

Since Shaq left, this is only the second time that Kobe has even sniffed a shot at getting his 4th.

Steel_12
06-01-2009, 12:56 PM
LMAO LeBron had a team around him...the same team that won the most games in the league this year. Everybody was saying how great this TEAM was before the playoffs started...How is it different now? How is it that LeBron needs help NOW?

explain that please

xfl2001fan
06-01-2009, 01:07 PM
LMAO LeBron had a team around him...the same team that won the most games in the league this year. Everybody was saying how great this TEAM was before the playoffs started...How is it different now? How is it that LeBron needs help NOW?

explain that please

Prior to the playoffs, Z was hitting 15-20 footers and Mo was hitting three pointers with regularity. Against the Magic, they weren't hitting their wide open looks...and when they don't hit their shots, the defense collapses even more on Lebron making life more difficult for him.

Terrible coaching didn't help things either.

Finally, the matchups weren't good vs Orlando. I have said all along that I didn't like the matchups and that they were the team I wanted to see the absolute least in the playoffs. The matchups vs the Lakers were much more in the Cavs favor than the matchups vs Orlando.

Next season, the Cavs are likely down Wallace, Wally, Varejao and Smith. Losing three bigs in one season is going to hurt.

Steel_12
06-01-2009, 01:08 PM
Actually that number is still at 3, and they were won on the coat tails of the most dominant big man of this generation and one of the top 3 or 4 centers that have ever played the game....

Coat tail? GTFOH...Kobe had just as much to do with those rings as Shaq did. Who do you think was closing games out for LA when Shaq's non-free throw shooting ass was on the bench in the 4th? Kobe was a MAJOR factor in those rings!!! And the time when they lost to Detroit in the finals, who hit the game winner in their only win in the series? KOBE!!! Ya'll are too funny!

xfl2001fan
06-01-2009, 01:17 PM
Coat tail? GTFOH...Kobe had just as much to do with those rings as Shaq did. Who do you think was closing games out for LA when Shaq's non-free throw shooting ass was on the bench in the 4th? Kobe was a MAJOR factor in those rings!!! And the time when they lost to Detroit in the finals, who hit the game winner in their only win in the series? KOBE!!! Ya'll are too funny!

OMG, he hit 1 game winner and won 1 game against a Detroit! Didn't Lebron hit a nice game winner in 1 game (of the 2 wins) against this recent Orlando team? You know what Lebron got out of it? Same as Kobe did vs Detroit.

Kobe was a factor...and nobody disputes that...however, he was still riding Shaq's coat tails. If not for Shaq's inside dominance...those Laker teams would not have even made it to the Western Conference Finals...let alone winning rings.

Steel_12
06-01-2009, 01:24 PM
Actually that number is still at 3, and they were won on the coat tails of the most dominant big man of this generation and one of the top 3 or 4 centers that have ever played the game....

Coat tail? GTFOH...Kobe had just as much to do with those rings as Shaq did. Who do you think was closing games out for LA when Shaq's non-free throw shooting ass was on the bench in the 4th? Kobe was a MAJOR factor in those rings!!! And the time when they lost to Detroit in the finals, who hit the game winner in their only win in the series? KOBE!!! Ya'll are too funny!

Steel_12
06-01-2009, 01:26 PM
OMG, he hit 1 game winner and won 1 game against a Detroit team that Lebron took to how many games again? Didn't Lebron hit a nice game winner in 1 game (of the 2 wins) against this recent Orlando team? You know what Lebron got out of it? Same as Kobe did vs Detroit.

Kobe was a factor...and nobody disputes that...however, he was still riding Shaq's coat tails. If not for Shaq's inside dominance...those Laker teams would not have even made it to the Western Conference Finals...let alone winning rings.

My bad on the double post lol

That wasn't the same Detroit team...some of the players but not the same. Kobe was more than a coattail rider and without Kobe closing games out for LA, that inside presence doesn't mean shit.

xfl2001fan
06-01-2009, 01:28 PM
Coat tail? GTFOH...Kobe had just as much to do with those rings as Shaq did. Who do you think was closing games out for LA when Shaq's non-free throw shooting ass was on the bench in the 4th? Kobe was a MAJOR factor in those rings!!! And the time when they lost to Detroit in the finals, who hit the game winner in their only win in the series? KOBE!!! Ya'll are too funny!

I went ahead and looked back on those Finals games.

The Lakers lost by 12, Won by 8, lost by 20, lost by 8 and lost by 13.

Kobe scored 22.6 PPG, 2.8 Rebounds, and 4.4 Assists.

Shaq - 26.6 PPG, 10.8 Rebounds and 1.6 Assists.

Kobe = Second fiddle.

Steel_12
06-01-2009, 01:36 PM
Prior to the playoffs, Z was hitting 15-20 footers and Mo was hitting three pointers with regularity. Against the Magic, they weren't hitting their wide open looks...and when they don't hit their shots, the defense collapses even more on Lebron making life more difficult for him.

Terrible coaching didn't help things either.

Finally, the matchups weren't good vs Orlando. I have said all along that I didn't like the matchups and that they were the team I wanted to see the absolute least in the playoffs. The matchups vs the Lakers were much more in the Cavs favor than the matchups vs Orlando.

Next season, the Cavs are likely down Wallace, Wally, Varejao and Smith. Losing three bigs in one season is going to hurt.

How is it going to hurt when they aren't good enough to play with LeBron anyway? Right? They should be easily replaceable.

Steel_12
06-01-2009, 01:38 PM
I went ahead and looked back on those Finals games.

The Lakers lost by 12, Won by 8, lost by 20, lost by 8 and lost by 13.

Kobe scored 22.6 PPG, 2.8 Rebounds, and 4.4 Assists.

Shaq - 26.6 PPG, 10.8 Rebounds and 1.6 Assists.

Kobe = Second fiddle.

I'm not disputing he was second fiddle to Shaq (even though he could've been the man if Shaq wasn't an ego-maniac). I'm just saying that 22 pts a game isn't anywhere near riding coattails.

xfl2001fan
06-01-2009, 01:46 PM
How is it going to hurt when they aren't good enough to play with LeBron anyway? Right? They should be easily replaceable.

If they were hitting open shots (throughout the series) like they had been hitting them during the regular season, we'd be talking Cavs vs Lakers instead of Orlando/Lakers. It's not like Orlando was playing spectacular D on them (or anyone for that matter.)

As for easily replacing them...have you seen the list of Free Agents for this season? Yes, by those 4 coming off the books, we gain over 30M in Salary Cap relief...but 3 bigs at once is hard to replace. We do have some young guys waiting in the wings...but they're relatively unproven.

I'm not disputing he was second fiddle to Shaq (even though he could've been the man if Shaq wasn't an ego-maniac). I'm just saying that 22 pts a game isn't anywhere near riding coattails.

Robin rides Batman's coattails, Scottie was riding MJ's and Kobe was riding Shaq's. Robin, Scottie and Kobe are all great in their own right, but a portion of their greatness comes from riding the coattails of something bigger and better than they were. The rings Scottie and Kobe got can be directly attributed to somebody better. If Shaq hadn't won those rings...would the Kobe/Lebron argument even exist?

Steel_12
06-01-2009, 02:03 PM
If they were hitting open shots (throughout the series) like they had been hitting them during the regular season, we'd be talking Cavs vs Lakers instead of Orlando/Lakers. It's not like Orlando was playing spectacular D on them (or anyone for that matter.)

As for easily replacing them...have you seen the list of Free Agents for this season? Yes, by those 4 coming off the books, we gain over 30M in Salary Cap relief...but 3 bigs at once is hard to replace. We do have some young guys waiting in the wings...but they're relatively unproven.



Robin rides Batman's coattails, Scottie was riding MJ's and Kobe was riding Shaq's. Robin, Scottie and Kobe are all great in their own right, but a portion of their greatness comes from riding the coattails of something bigger and better than they were. The rings Scottie and Kobe got can be directly attributed to somebody better. If Shaq hadn't won those rings...would the Kobe/Lebron argument even exist?

Of course there would be an argument because both are great players. The rings have nothing to do with it.

MACH1
06-01-2009, 02:54 PM
Actually that number is still at 3, and they were won on the coat tails of the most dominant big man of this generation and one of the top 3 or 4 centers that have ever played the game....

3tobe4 :chuckle:

MACH1
06-01-2009, 02:55 PM
Still, being a champion doesn't make you a great player. That's the actual point he was making. Kobe's three rings (not 4 as one n00b put it) was a result of a great team. While Kobe played well, Shaq was still the main focus teams had to contend with.

Since Shaq left, this is only the second time that Kobe has even sniffed a shot at getting his 4th.

uhh who's the noob. 3 soon to be 4.

xfl2001fan
06-01-2009, 03:09 PM
uhh who's the noob. 3 soon to be 4.

The New England Patriots, Tom Brady, and all their fans were counting on their 4th Ring too. How'd that work out for them n00b?

MACH1
06-01-2009, 04:22 PM
The New England Patriots, Tom Brady, and all their fans were counting on their 4th Ring too. How'd that work out for them n00b?

If you weren't such the n00b you'd know its a joke. Maybe fs76 will explain it you.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x78/ryl2333/lebron-james.png

revefsreleets
06-02-2009, 09:41 AM
So much blind hate...it's sad, really...

atlsteelers
06-02-2009, 10:50 AM
i really like lebron over kobe. but lebron acted like a big baby on saturday. How about showing some class queen james.

i guess this thread should be titled kobe vs howard but since i really dislike kobe lets go atlanta's own dwight howard

Steel Head
06-02-2009, 12:46 PM
i used to like Lebron untill that poor display of sportsmanship, it was Brady-esque

what a crybaby

xfl2001fan
06-02-2009, 02:26 PM
i really like lebron over kobe. but lebron acted like a big baby on saturday. How about showing some class queen james.

i guess this thread should be titled kobe vs howard but since i really dislike kobe lets go atlanta's own dwight howard

Nah, this thread was created as a basis for debating who was better between Kobe/Lebron.

I agree, he was completely classless. His cop-out response irritated me even more. I would rather he have said:

"I was really upset at that time and just needed to get away."

Him trying to convince people it wasn't a classless act was just wrong.

revefsreleets
06-02-2009, 02:57 PM
I agree...it was not very cool to walk off the floor...and he made it worse by trying to justify it.

lilyoder6
06-02-2009, 03:06 PM
u got to like the the fact he was wearing a yankee hat during the interview...

lebrick's vacation has come early again.. i wonder what he gonna do

revefsreleets
06-02-2009, 03:30 PM
Yankee's fans are disgusting. There were scores of them at the Tribe game last night. Some were obvious NY transplants based on the heavy "Guido factor", but many were obviously simple hometown fans gone over to the dark-side, front-runner bandwagon whor es...awful, awful, awful...

MACH1
06-02-2009, 06:11 PM
http://assets.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/1990/lebron-james-is-a-crying-baby.jpg

:sofunny:

lilyoder6
06-03-2009, 08:55 AM
http://assets.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/1990/lebron-james-is-a-crying-baby.jpg

:sofunny:

hahahaha

lebron is getting hit hard with this stunt,.. u got to love it...

xfl2001fan
06-03-2009, 10:16 AM
hahahaha

lebron is getting hit hard with this stunt,.. u got to love it...

Yeah...because Kobe hasn't done anything worse than thii....oh wait. He had to pay off some lady to shut down the whole sex scandal (I don't believe it was rape.)

If this is the worst thing you've got on Lebron...is it really that bad? I'm not justifying what he did (it was a serious lack of sportsmanship) or his comments afterwards (serious cop out)...but it's significantly better than a potential rape scandal.

atlsteelers
06-03-2009, 10:42 AM
when kobe ratted out shaq that broke every man code out there.

lebron embarassed himself but what kobe did was a thousand fold worse.

lilyoder6
06-03-2009, 11:18 AM
Yeah...because Kobe hasn't done anything worse than thii....oh wait. He had to pay off some lady to shut down the whole sex scandal (I don't believe it was rape.)

If this is the worst thing you've got on Lebron...is it really that bad? I'm not justifying what he did (it was a serious lack of sportsmanship) or his comments afterwards (serious cop out)...but it's significantly better than a potential rape scandal.

watch this.. this would of solved evrything lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSCbChYeX-w

lilyoder6
06-03-2009, 11:23 AM
when kobe ratted out shaq that broke every man code out there.

lebron embarassed himself but what kobe did was a thousand fold worse.

how did he rat shaq out??? plz inform me..

lilyoder6
06-03-2009, 11:26 AM
Yeah...because Kobe hasn't done anything worse than thii....oh wait. He had to pay off some lady to shut down the whole sex scandal (I don't believe it was rape.)
If this is the worst thing you've got on Lebron...is it really that bad? I'm not justifying what he did (it was a serious lack of sportsmanship) or his comments afterwards (serious cop out)...but it's significantly better than a potential rape scandal.

yea.. and lebron and any other young athete, shit anyone in that matter is just a women away from being called out for raping them or w/e

and shit i wouldn't bet against that athletes have alrdy paid hush money in the past present and future for them to be quit so there image wouldn't be ruined,,, it's a mute point

atlsteelers
06-03-2009, 11:56 AM
how did he rat shaq out??? plz inform me..

Shaquille O'Neal dismissed as "ridiculous" reported claims by Kobe Bryant that his ex-Lakers teammate had paid sex partners $1 million in hush money.

"The whole situation is ridiculous," the married O'Neal told ESPN on Wednesday.

"I never hang out with Kobe," O'Neal, 32, said to the cable sports network. "I never hung around him. ... In seven or eight years we were together (on the Lakers), we were never together. So how this guy can think he knows anything about me or my business is funny."

O'Neal's denial came in response to a Los Angeles Times story quoting a police report in which Bryant told detectives in Eagle, Colo.: "He should have done what Shaq does ... that Shaq would pay his women not to say anything" and already had paid up to $1 million "for situations like this."

The Times reported that Bryant's remarks were made during a police interrogation in his sexual assault criminal case, which was recently dismissed after his accuser stopped cooperating with authorities. Her civil case against Bryant is still set to move forward, however, though legal experts expect a financial settlement from Bryant to bring a close to that.

"And one last thing," O'Neal, who now plays for the Miami Heat, told ESPN. "I'm not the one buying love. He's the one buying love."

O'Neal may have been referring to a $4 million diamond ring Bryant reportedly bought his wife Vanessa after he said he and his accuser, a hotel concierge, had "consensual" sex.

xfl2001fan
06-03-2009, 12:34 PM
yea.. and lebron and any other young athete, shit anyone in that matter is just a women away from being called out for raping them or w/e

and shit i wouldn't bet against that athletes have alrdy paid hush money in the past present and future for them to be quit so there image wouldn't be ruined,,, it's a mute point

You assume it happens to all because it happens to some (and far too frequently?) Is that what I'm supposed to get from your statement? As if that makes it less wrong for Kobe because other athletes area also dipshits?

Try this one on for size. Lebron isn't married. If he's sleeping with someone else, that's his business. If he's sleeping with someone and paying them hush money, that's his business.

Cheating on your wife...that's taboo. That's wrong. Morally, religiously, whatever...and you can't tell me that Kobe/Vanessa don't think it's wrong...because otherwise, he wouldn't have had to purchase her all that lavish jewelry shortly there after.

What Lebron did...while selfish and self centered was wrong...isn't nearly as reprehensible as what Kobe did.

fansince'76
06-03-2009, 12:57 PM
Speaking of crybabies, anybody else remember the little joint crying jag of Kobe's and Derek Fisher's during game 6 of the 2003 Conference Semis as soon as it became obvious the Spurs were going to win the game and the series, ending their season early? :coffee:

The_WARDen
06-03-2009, 01:03 PM
speaking of crying, remember when Kordell cried on the sidelines? Ooops, wrong thread.

lilyoder6
06-03-2009, 01:50 PM
You assume it happens to all because it happens to some (and far too frequently?) Is that what I'm supposed to get from your statement? As if that makes it less wrong for Kobe because other athletes area also dipshits?

Try this one on for size. Lebron isn't married. If he's sleeping with someone else, that's his business. If he's sleeping with someone and paying them hush money, that's his business.

Cheating on your wife...that's taboo. That's wrong. Morally, religiously, whatever...and you can't tell me that Kobe/Vanessa don't think it's wrong...because otherwise, he wouldn't have had to purchase her all that lavish jewelry shortly there after.

What Lebron did...while selfish and self centered was wrong...isn't nearly as reprehensible as what Kobe did.

paying hush money is still paying hush money if ur married or not...

and it's funny how u have to go and atk someone else... that happened 6 yrs ago.. hahaha get over it, evryone else did..
but for the fun of it.. then why didn't the girl want to testify in court that kobe raped her??
and then why did she go to a party and brag about having sex with byrant?? b/c last time i checked, women don't brag about being raped...
and i'm not trying to defend kobe, but that was 6 yrs ago
and rly it was a he said she said type thing.. if u watch the link i sent u, the man is right... if u are getting raped, u fight back, but there was no bruises, cuts or w/e...

and u can go on ur moral and say anything u want bout cheating.. but u know what.. it happens, i agree that it's not evryone, but young athletes always on the travel.. y u think they got so many baby mama'a

lilyoder6
06-03-2009, 02:19 PM
Speaking of crybabies, anybody else remember the little joint crying jag of Kobe's and Derek Fisher's during game 6 of the 2003 Conference Semis as soon as it became obvious the Spurs were going to win the game and the series, ending their season early? :coffee:

y don't u bring up an article for that

xfl2001fan
06-03-2009, 02:34 PM
paying hush money is still paying hush money if ur married or not...

and it's funny how u have to go and atk someone else... that happened 6 yrs ago.. hahaha get over it, evryone else did..
but for the fun of it.. then why didn't the girl want to testify in court that kobe raped her??
and then why did she go to a party and brag about having sex with byrant?? b/c last time i checked, women don't brag about being raped...
and i'm not trying to defend kobe, but that was 6 yrs ago
and rly it was a he said she said type thing.. if u watch the link i sent u, the man is right... if u are getting raped, u fight back, but there was no bruises, cuts or w/e...

and u can go on ur moral and say anything u want bout cheating.. but u know what.. it happens, i agree that it's not evryone, but young athletes always on the travel.. y u think they got so many baby mama'a

Well, it's clear you can't read...or choose not to. Because I stated previously that I didn't believe it was rape. I merely mention this incident because people are absolutely blasting Lebron...when (in the grand scheme of things) it really isn't that bad. Especially when you consider what Kobe had done. I can't watch your video while I'm at work...and could care less what's on it. It doesn't change the fact that I Kobe cheated on his wife. Whether consent was there (as I have previously posted I believe there was) or not is irrelevant. Kobe cheated. Then, he tried dragging others into it. Great role model there. Lebron didn't shake a few peoples hands...that's it.

Hush money is hush money...but that don't make it cheating. Kobe cheated. Lebron had a bad sportsmanship moment. Yet, with some of the current posting (here and elsewhere), you'd think Lebron sacrificed people's firstborn son or something.

I'll say this again (for your benefit, because I know you won't go back and remember what I've written previously).

If this is the worst thing you've got on Lebron...then Lebron isn't really a bad guy.

fansince'76
06-03-2009, 04:14 PM
y don't u bring up an article for that

Publication: Contra Costa Times (Walnut Creek, Calif.) (via Knight-Ridder/Tribune News Service)

Publication Date: 18-May-03

COPYRIGHT 2003 Contra Costa Times

There was no need to adjust your set. Those were real tears being cried on the Lakers' bench Thursday night as they were eliminated from the playoffs. That was genuine sadness they felt as their three-year run as NBA champions came to an end. What you witnessed was pure pain.

Kobe Bryant and Derek Fisher were crying. Robert Horry called it his lowest moment since the death of his grandmother.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-8964134_ITM

revefsreleets
06-04-2009, 07:48 AM
Speaking of crybabies, anybody else remember the little joint crying jag of Kobe's and Derek Fisher's during game 6 of the 2003 Conference Semis as soon as it became obvious the Spurs were going to win the game and the series, ending their season early? :coffee:

Was that before or after he demanded that the Lakers put better players around him? Before or after he had a temper tantrum and demanded a trade?

Can't recall...

lilyoder6
06-04-2009, 08:28 AM
I can't watch your video while I'm at work...and could care less what's on it.

Hush money is hush money...but that don't make it cheating. Kobe cheated. Lebron had a bad sportsmanship moment. Yet, with some of the current posting (here and elsewhere), you'd think Lebron sacrificed people's firstborn son or something.

If this is the worst thing you've got on Lebron...then Lebron isn't really a bad guy.

well the video is just a comedian do an act about the thing.. i thinks it's funny...

.. i would agree that some ppl are taking this whole lebron thing lil bit too, far.. like i said i'm just laughing at the fact he is getting so much heat from it.. it was a d-bag move and it did hurt his image but ppl will get over it.. at least they should

and u don't know how bad or good someone rly is unless u know them personally...

lilyoder6
06-04-2009, 08:30 AM
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-8964134_ITM

thank u..

but to me, this is a dif type of crybaby than what lebron is being called today.

i mean players actaully cry when they come short or something ends... last game for a sr for hs and college, and what not...

SteelersinCA
06-04-2009, 11:55 PM
Kobe putting up the stats again, and again and again. Anyone wanna bet he does it all Finals long?

From ESPN: Bryant is ranked as the world's 10th biggest celebrity by Forbes. Bryant was the second highest ranked athlete, trailing only Tiger Woods, who was No. 5. According to the magazine, Bryant made $45 million in salary and endorsements this year.

Just some more food for thought.

MACH1
06-05-2009, 12:20 AM
Kobe putting up the stats again, and again and again. Anyone wanna bet he does it all Finals long?

From ESPN: Bryant is ranked as the world's 10th biggest celebrity by Forbes. Bryant was the second highest ranked athlete, trailing only Tiger Woods, who was No. 5. According to the magazine, Bryant made $45 million in salary and endorsements this year.

Just some more food for thought.

He got all that from riding shaqs coat tails. :rolleyes:

xfl2001fan
06-05-2009, 04:28 AM
Kobe putting up the stats again, and again and again. Anyone wanna bet he does it all Finals long?

From ESPN: Bryant is ranked as the world's 10th biggest celebrity by Forbes. Bryant was the second highest ranked athlete, trailing only Tiger Woods, who was No. 5. According to the magazine, Bryant made $45 million in salary and endorsements this year.

Just some more food for thought.

Even the announcers on during the game said he didn't have to play a lot of defense...but was instead able to conserve energy for the offensive end. Must be nice.

Not that Forbes means much...but since it's just dollars and cents that they are discussing:

Kobe got paid 21M in salary, which means that he's got 24M in endorsements.

Lebron is getting 14M in salary which means he's getting 26M in endorsements.

Lebron can't help the way that the salary cap is set up the way that he is...but Kobe is getting paid more based on time in the league...Lebron is being paid as much as he can and still makes more in endorsements (despite the fact that his Microsoft endorsement ended last year.)

revefsreleets
06-05-2009, 07:31 AM
As i said in my other post, congrats to Kobe! He finally put up as many points in a game as LBJ was averaging...