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xfl2001fan
04-23-2009, 01:21 PM
Per:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/career_stats.html
You are referencing the 05-06/06-07 seasons.

35.4 PPG, 4.5 APG, 5.3 RPG, 1.8 SPG, and 3.13 TO. (10th season in NBA, 8th as a full-time starter)
31.6 PPG, 5.4 APG, 5.7 RPG, 1.4 SPG, and 3.31 TO. (11th season in the NBA, 9th as a full time starter)

http://www.lakersuniverse.com/playoffs/roster2006.htm
05-06 Roster had
Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Sasha Vujacic, Aaron McKie, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm and Andrew Bynum (Rookie)

06-07 Roster added Vladimir Radmanovic and lost no one of note. Drafted Jordan Farmar

By contrast, Lebron had:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/career_stats.html

31.4 PPG, 6.6 APG, 7.0 RPG, 1.6 SPG and 3.29 TO (3rd season in NBA)
27.3 PPG, 6.0 APG, 6.7 RPG, 1.6 SPG and 3.21 TO (4th season in NBA, lost in Championship to San Antonio)

05-06 Starters: Z, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes (new FA), Eric Snow and James,
Donyell Marshall (new FA), Damon Jones (new FA), Sasha Pavlovic, Ira Newble, Anderson Varejao and Flip Murray saw significant time. Mike Browns first year as a coach, new offense, defense, etc...

06-07 Starters:
Z, Gooden, Pavlovic and Huges are starters with LBJ.
Marshall, Varejao, Jones, Gibson (rookie) and Snow still see significant minutes.

Yeah, hardly a stellar cast. Despite the lack of a cast, LBJ took the Cavs further in the playoffs than Kobe took the Lakers (who were put out both times in the first round by the Suns).

Steel Head
04-23-2009, 01:40 PM
Lebron is better

MACH1
04-23-2009, 01:50 PM
05-06 Roster had
Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Sasha Vujacic, Aaron McKie, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm and Andrew Bynum (Rookie)

06-07 Roster added Vladimir Radmanovic and lost no one of note. Drafted Jordan Farmar

You call that a stellar cast. please

Eric Snow, Larry Hughes and Donyell Marshall were(are) damn good players. So don't say he didn't have any help.

tony hipchest
04-23-2009, 02:06 PM
You call that a stellar cast. please

.kwame brown = #1 draft pick.

wasnt l. odom #3 for the clippers? they may have never lived up to their draft status but certainly arent scrubs.
id definitely take odom over anyone the cavs had. probably brown too.

anyways kobe and bebron just need to have a ppv dunk off and settle it once and for all.

xfl2001fan
04-23-2009, 02:17 PM
You call that a stellar cast. please

Eric Snow, Larry Hughes and Donyell Marshall were(are) damn good players. So don't say he didn't have any help.

Donyell Marshall is a shooting forward...and he was streaky (at best.) Eric Snow was pretty good defensively...but provided little on offense.

Larry Hughes. HAHAHAHAHA :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yeah, that guys a serious talent. :sofunny:

Let's see, since he left Cleveland, he did nothing for the Bulls...and wasn't he doing nothing for the Knicks earlier this season? :hatsoff:

I'm not saying Kobe had a stellar cast...I was trying to use sarcasm when describing the Cavs cast. Unfortunately, sarcasm doesn't translate over the internet very well.

The fact that Lebron (in his 3rd and 4th season) is (statistically) on par with with a 10 year veteran All-Star...and no supporting cast should tell you volumes. Lebron is only going to improve...and Kobe...he'll start to fade soon enough. His name will likely earn him a few more Defensive All-Star (and regular All-Star) teams...but that's about it.

Lebron is on the same plane as MJ...different style of player, but he's that kind of a Global Icon and absolute stud in an NBA chock full of guys who are uber talented. Let Lebron find his Pippen and see how many rings he wins.

MACH1
04-23-2009, 02:25 PM
Lebron is on the same plane as MJ

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Now that's funny

Maybe after he wins 6-7 titles.

MACH1
04-23-2009, 02:30 PM
kwame brown = #1 draft pick.

wasnt l. odom #3 for the clippers? they may have never lived up to their draft status but certainly arent scrubs.
id definitely take odom over anyone the cavs had. probably brown too.

anyways kobe and bebron just need to have a ppv dunk off and settle it once and for all.

Might find out in the finals.

xfl2001fan
04-23-2009, 02:31 PM
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Now that's funny

Maybe after he wins 6-7 titles.

As a player, he's on that same talent level (and not just basketball talent, but global marketing icon talent.)

As a team, the Cavs don't have a Pippen. How many titles did he win before Pippen? Pippen was a perennial all-star in his own right...though not a guy to carry a team through a championship on his own.

All those rings...and people are so quick to overlook the talent on the Bulls team. It wasn't JUST Jordan there. Shaq needed his Pippen to win as well (whether it was Kobe or D-Wade).

Give Lebron the "Bulls" level of supporting cast, he'll absolutely dominate. Let 2010 come around and have someone like Chris Bosh, or D-Wade come to town instead of Lebron Leaving...and watch the Cavs own the NBA for as long as that pair is together.

Steel Head
04-23-2009, 02:32 PM
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Now that's funny

Maybe after he wins 6-7 titles.

Lebron is 24 yrs old. MJ didn't win the title untill he was 28 yrs old

I wouldn't bet against Lebron winning 6 titles

SteelersinCA
04-23-2009, 03:54 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you picked those seasons instead of just their first 6 years in the league?

There is no stat for clutch and I would say Kobe is one of the all time greats when it comes to clutch. LeBron can be if he becomes a better shooter. Kobe also was just as big as Lebron is now as far as marketing before the rape scandal.

And Kobe still sells jerseys: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3866598

SteelersinCA
04-23-2009, 03:59 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you picked those seasons instead of just their first 6 years in the league?

There is no stat for clutch and I would say Kobe is one of the all time greats when it comes to clutch. LeBron can be if he becomes a better shooter. Kobe also was just as big as Lebron is now as far as marketing before the rape scandal.

And Kobe still sells jerseys: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3866598

Also Lebron seems to think Kobe is the best in the league. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZPRQCqxG_I Nevermind the title, it's pretty much a pro Kobe video, but the clip of Lebron is definitely real.

And as for what NBA GMs think: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2009-02-14-kobe-vs-lebron_N.htm

I'm guessing the NBA GMs know more about it than you or me. GO KOBE!!! :drink:

xfl2001fan
04-23-2009, 04:26 PM
Those seasons were picked based off of the conversation that started in the NBA Playoffs thread. I created this thread to do the Lebron/Kobe talk so as not to be a thread hi-jacking there.

Lebron is allowed to say someone is a better player. But that doesn't necessarily make it so. Can't watch Youtube at work, so I'll have to wait til I get home to watch the video.

Taking Kobe for his total body of work over a 12 year career vs taking James and his 4 year career is still about perception. I'm trying to show a different side of the picture.

Too many people want to use "Rings" as the deciding factor...but (as stated previously) what is Kobe without Shaq? This year, instead of one big man, he's got the "Twin Towers" in Bynum/Gasol...which is like putting Parker on a team with Duncan/Robinson.

It's just sick. Toss in the fact that LA has Odom coming off the bench...yeah, Kobe's team should win. He's got more pieces...and (when it's all added up) they are better than the Cavs. Lebron can't control who was traded to the Lakers...and he can't control who signs with the Cavs. He's not the GM. The best that he can do is play with the teammates that he has.

How many people were saying MJ was the absolute best in the League before Pippin, Rodman, etc...? Once he got them (and the rings that come with it) to go with the stats he was able to produce...now he's the best that the league has ever seen.

Lebron has never had championship talent around him...it's been his Championship talent that has carried his team to 50, 50, 45, and 66 wins these last 4 years. It's been his championship talent that has carried his team to the Eastern Conference Finals, Championship, Eastern Conference Finals and (?).

The thought that Kobe is better in the last 4 mintues of the game. Kobe rarely passes up those shots. Lebron is looking for the best shot available. He'll pass up a good shot to give an (attempted) assist if a teammate looks to have a great shot. That's why he has consistently had more assists than Kobe.

I don't question that Kobe is the better shooter. But to say that Lebron can't create his shot as well as Kobe is just sick. His body control is every bit as good as Kobes, his speed (if not faster) is as fast as Kobes...and he handles the ball just about as well as Kobe does. Kobe isn't nearly as strong...though he is very strong for a Guard. Lebron is strong for a Power Forward, with the ball skills, speed and agility of a guard...and the passing skills of a PG.

Keep guessing, keep your Kobe glasses on...that's fine. But you're comparing 12 years of work (and better teams to go with it) vs 4. Seems a bit...biased.

fansince'76
04-23-2009, 04:31 PM
As a team, the Cavs don't have a Pippen. How many titles did he win before Pippen? Pippen was a perennial all-star in his own right...though not a guy to carry a team through a championship on his own.

All those rings...and people are so quick to overlook the talent on the Bulls team. It wasn't JUST Jordan there.

Agreed. Also, don't forget Rodman, Horace Grant, Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong, etc. The Bulls had a bunch of excellent role players.

SteelersinCA
04-23-2009, 04:35 PM
Those seasons were picked based off of the conversation that started in the NBA Playoffs thread. I created this thread to do the Lebron/Kobe talk so as not to be a thread hi-jacking there.

Lebron is allowed to say someone is a better player. But that doesn't necessarily make it so. Can't watch Youtube at work, so I'll have to wait til I get home to watch the video.

Taking Kobe for his total body of work over a 12 year career vs taking James and his 4 year career is still about perception. I'm trying to show a different side of the picture.

Too many people want to use "Rings" as the deciding factor...but (as stated previously) what is Kobe without Shaq? This year, instead of one big man, he's got the "Twin Towers" in Bynum/Gasol...which is like putting Parker on a team with Duncan/Robinson.

It's just sick. Toss in the fact that LA has Odom coming off the bench...yeah, Kobe's team should win. He's got more pieces...and (when it's all added up) they are better than the Cavs. Lebron can't control who was traded to the Lakers...and he can't control who signs with the Cavs. He's not the GM. The best that he can do is play with the teammates that he has.

How many people were saying MJ was the absolute best in the League before Pippin, Rodman, etc...? Once he got them (and the rings that come with it) to go with the stats he was able to produce...now he's the best that the league has ever seen.

Lebron has never had championship talent around him...it's been his Championship talent that has carried his team to 50, 50, 45, and 66 wins these last 4 years. It's been his championship talent that has carried his team to the Eastern Conference Finals, Championship, Eastern Conference Finals and (?).

The thought that Kobe is better in the last 4 mintues of the game. Kobe rarely passes up those shots. Lebron is looking for the best shot available. He'll pass up a good shot to give an (attempted) assist if a teammate looks to have a great shot. That's why he has consistently had more assists than Kobe.

I don't question that Kobe is the better shooter. But to say that Lebron can't create his shot as well as Kobe is just sick. His body control is every bit as good as Kobes, his speed (if not faster) is as fast as Kobes...and he handles the ball just about as well as Kobe does. Kobe isn't nearly as strong...though he is very strong for a Guard. Lebron is strong for a Power Forward, with the ball skills, speed and agility of a guard...and the passing skills of a PG.

Keep guessing, keep your Kobe glasses on...that's fine. But you're comparing 12 years of work (and better teams to go with it) vs 4. Seems a bit...biased.

I'm not advocating that you should compare Kobe's 12 years vs Lebrons 5, he's been in since 03' I was simply curious as to why you picked those years for comparison.

I'm not saying Lebron is bad player, but it's difficult to compare for several reasons, Kobe is older, has the rings, and has a more talented team where he doesn't have to do as much as Lebron.

I don't think any truly nuetral person would say Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe. You're from Cleveland, I understand your preference for LBJ. I'm simply saying Kobe is a world renowned player just like Lebron, if not more famous because of his longevity. They are the 2 best in the league, we're splitting hairs here, you realize that right?

Why do all you Ohio fans get so sensitive? Is it the lack of winning programs or what? :noidea:

xfl2001fan
04-23-2009, 05:44 PM
I'm not advocating that you should compare Kobe's 12 years vs Lebrons 5, he's been in since 03' I was simply curious as to why you picked those years for comparison.

I'm not saying Lebron is bad player, but it's difficult to compare for several reasons, Kobe is older, has the rings, and has a more talented team where he doesn't have to do as much as Lebron.

I don't think any truly nuetral person would say Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe. You're from Cleveland, I understand your preference for LBJ. I'm simply saying Kobe is a world renowned player just like Lebron, if not more famous because of his longevity. They are the 2 best in the league, we're splitting hairs here, you realize that right?

Why do all you Ohio fans get so sensitive? Is it the lack of winning programs or what? :noidea:

I shouldn't have made it sound like you were implying the disparity in years. That was definitely my fault.

I am refuting arguments that I hear on a consistent basis, that's all. Rings are unfair, because of the difference in talent level for teams...and you can't win in Basketball without a team. Basketball, like football, requires for a total team effort to win...so the rings are more indicative of team talent/coaching as opposed to individual accomplishments...plus (as stated previously) those rings were more due to Shaq than they were to Kobe.

IMO there is a huge difference between being a scorer and a shooter. A scorer gets points in a myriad of ways. Shaq is a scorer. In his heyday, he was one of the more dominant scorers because his inside presence is so strong. To many people (not necessarily you) confuse the difference between scoring and shooting. They are related, but still very different themes...and I believe that Lebron is a better scorer. Yes, it's by the teensiest bit. However, Kobe is a much better shooter. A lot of that has to do with time in the league though. I believe that Lebron will become an even more efficient shooter over the next 6 years, to go with the rest of his beastly skills, just as Kobe had to work at it.

The real comparison between Kobe and Lebron should, ultimately, come down to which player type you prefer. I prefer Lebrons team mentaility over Kobe's killer mentality. It's not that Lebron Can't be a killer...or that Kobe scores better...it's just that Lebron looks for the best option that the defense gives him whereas Kobe tries (more often than not, successfully) to force the defense to make a mistake that he can exploit (primarily in "crunch time".)

Give Lebron the team...and he'll win rings. The Cavs are one more (more than solid) player away from utterly dominating the league. Right now, they've got the role players...now it's time to find the Pippen. Mo was a fantastic piece...but I believe they need a big down low that can really dominate...because while Z is good...and Varejao is steadily (and fairly rapidly) improving...they're not quite up to the level that is necessary to put the Cavs over the top...especially when you look at who they will likely face in the finals.

BehindSteelCurtain
04-23-2009, 05:46 PM
Both are outstanding but Kobe is the better scorer and LeBron is the better overall player but I think that is because of his position.

xfl2001fan
04-23-2009, 06:00 PM
Both are outstanding but Kobe is the better scorer and LeBron is the better overall player but I think that is because of his position.

Again, scorer or shooter? I believe Lebron is a shade better scorer but Kobe is a better shooter.

What does position have to do with anything?

SteelersinCA
04-23-2009, 06:33 PM
I shouldn't have made it sound like you were implying the disparity in years. That was definitely my fault.

I am refuting arguments that I hear on a consistent basis, that's all. Rings are unfair, because of the difference in talent level for teams...and you can't win in Basketball without a team. Basketball, like football, requires for a total team effort to win...so the rings are more indicative of team talent/coaching as opposed to individual accomplishments...plus (as stated previously) those rings were more due to Shaq than they were to Kobe.

IMO there is a huge difference between being a scorer and a shooter. A scorer gets points in a myriad of ways. Shaq is a scorer. In his heyday, he was one of the more dominant scorers because his inside presence is so strong. To many people (not necessarily you) confuse the difference between scoring and shooting. They are related, but still very different themes...and I believe that Lebron is a better scorer. Yes, it's by the teensiest bit. However, Kobe is a much better shooter. A lot of that has to do with time in the league though. I believe that Lebron will become an even more efficient shooter over the next 6 years, to go with the rest of his beastly skills, just as Kobe had to work at it.

The real comparison between Kobe and Lebron should, ultimately, come down to which player type you prefer. I prefer Lebrons team mentaility over Kobe's killer mentality. It's not that Lebron Can't be a killer...or that Kobe scores better...it's just that Lebron looks for the best option that the defense gives him whereas Kobe tries (more often than not, successfully) to force the defense to make a mistake that he can exploit (primarily in "crunch time".)

Give Lebron the team...and he'll win rings. The Cavs are one more (more than solid) player away from utterly dominating the league. Right now, they've got the role players...now it's time to find the Pippen. Mo was a fantastic piece...but I believe they need a big down low that can really dominate...because while Z is good...and Varejao is steadily (and fairly rapidly) improving...they're not quite up to the level that is necessary to put the Cavs over the top...especially when you look at who they will likely face in the finals.

I think your analysis is completely reasonable and fair, I just disagree. If I had to take any player right now, I'd take Kobe. If I had to take any player right now to build a franchise around I'd take Lebron, because of the age. If I had to take either of the two at the inception of their career to build a franchise around, I'd take Kobe. However, I would not fault someone who would pick LBJ.

xfl2001fan
04-23-2009, 07:18 PM
I think your analysis is completely reasonable and fair, I just disagree. If I had to take any player right now, I'd take Kobe. If I had to take any player right now to build a franchise around I'd take Lebron, because of the age. If I had to take either of the two at the inception of their career to build a franchise around, I'd take Kobe. However, I would not fault someone who would pick LBJ.

I couldn't fault you for taking Kobe at his inception...but his first two years, he didn't really do much, whereas Lebron has been NBA ready since Day 1. I think that a part of that is why I am that much more enamored with him (and Dwight Howard too) than I am with Kobe.

Kobe (to me) also comes off as fake. He seems like he's programmed himself to have the image he created (even before the whole scandal) whereas it feels more natural with Lebron. It looks like Lebron really is playing a game...whereas with Kobe, it looks more like work. Again, these are just my impressions...and I don't think that it's about Cleveland or East/West coast either. I get the same impression from Dwight Howard that I do from Lebron...and D-Wade seems like a mix between between the Kobe/Lebron.

Then again, I used to like Shaq...but anymore, he seems like an old fading superstar who can't let go of the spotlight.

SteelersinCA
04-23-2009, 07:50 PM
I've always hated Shaq, if you were 7'1" and 330lbs you could dominate in the post too.

I think Kobe makes it look like work because he is so intense. They are both amazing to watch, I guess I just like Kobe's style better. Howard doesn't do much for me.

xfl2001fan
04-23-2009, 08:12 PM
I've always hated Shaq, if you were 7'1" and 330lbs you could dominate in the post too.

I think Kobe makes it look like work because he is so intense. They are both amazing to watch, I guess I just like Kobe's style better. Howard doesn't do much for me.

I think what I like about Howard is how he's always smiling and joking. As for Kobe, it's not just the ingame...it's the press conferences and such. He just seems like everything he does is more a job. I think about the only things I've ever seen him do (with the knowledge that we don't get near as much Kobe coverage on the West Coast as those of you in CA) is his NBA Cares commercials.

tony hipchest
04-23-2009, 08:36 PM
Agreed. Also, don't forget Rodman, Horace Grant, Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong, etc. The Bulls had a bunch of excellent role players.not to be a complete homer but the bulls were also the ONLY championship team to have both a UNM and NMSU alum (brown and longley) who teamed up with the likes of kukoc for the last 3 (post MJ- baseball star).

xfl2001fan
04-23-2009, 08:38 PM
not to be a complete homer but the bulls were also the ONLY championship team to have both a UNM and NMSU alum (brown and longley) who teamed up with the likes of kucoc for the last 3 (post MJ- baseball star).

That's OK Tony, we only think you're a 98.27% homer...so it's not complete afterall! :flap:

lilyoder6
04-24-2009, 02:29 AM
The thought that Kobe is better in the last 4 mintues of the game. Kobe rarely passes up those shots. Lebron is looking for the best shot available. He'll pass up a good shot to give an (attempted) assist if a teammate looks to have a great shot.


thats not true..
it's prob dif this yr since he has mo

but in the past.. lebron was critized over and over again 4 "passing" the ball away in the ticking min of a game they were trailing.. he was scared and still could be today...

most of the time when the game is on the line u want ur best player to have the ball

now obv.. i just got home and it's like 2;30 in the morning and bout 2 pass out... so i will cite if need be later today..

lilyoder6
04-24-2009, 02:32 AM
[QUOTE=xfl2001fan;593920]Per:
05-06 Roster had
Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Sasha Vujacic, Aaron McKie, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm and Andrew Bynum (Rookie)

06-07 Roster added Vladimir Radmanovic and lost no one of note. Drafted Jordan Farmar


QUOTE]


WOW.... i didn't realize how horrible the lakers roster was, other than kobe...
now obv bynum and odom a whole bunch better than they were and stuff...


and the fact bout are far they went in the playoffs....

evryone and there mom knows that the western conf is like 10 times harder than the eastern conf was and still is

xfl2001fan
04-24-2009, 08:04 AM
thats not true..
it's prob dif this yr since he has mo

but in the past.. lebron was critized over and over again 4 "passing" the ball away in the ticking min of a game they were trailing.. he was scared and still could be today...

most of the time when the game is on the line u want ur best player to have the ball

now obv.. i just got home and it's like 2;30 in the morning and bout 2 pass out... so i will cite if need be later today..

He was scared? 6'8, 250 freak of nature was scared? HAHAHA The best player had the ball, and felt that a teammate had a better shot opportunity than he did...because he KNOWS that the rest of the NBA is going to be gunning for him in the closing minutes of any game. So, do you force the shot or pass off to a guy who has a much better look? Kobe forces the issue...and (because he's a better shooter) get's the "clutch" points (although I have seen references that indicate there is far less substantiality to Kobe's "clutch" shot and when I get them, I'll post them). Lebron has passed the ball off to 3 point guys like Donyell Marshall, Damon Jones and Daniel Gibson who failed to hit the open look...and supposedly that is their specialty. Lebron made the smart basketball play...that didn't work out. It's not being scared. It's lack of other talent around him.

I don't know why I posted half of this...because there is NO PROOF that he is scared. Just proof that he prefers the smart basketball play.

xfl2001fan
04-24-2009, 08:08 AM
Per:
05-06 Roster had
Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Sasha Vujacic, Aaron McKie, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm and Andrew Bynum (Rookie)

06-07 Roster added Vladimir Radmanovic and lost no one of note. Drafted Jordan Farmar
WOW.... i didn't realize how horrible the lakers roster was, other than kobe...
now obv bynum and odom a whole bunch better than they were and stuff...


and the fact bout are far they went in the playoffs....

evryone and there mom knows that the western conf is like 10 times harder than the eastern conf was and still is

How far they went into the playoffs? HAHAHA They got punted out of the first round both seasons by the Suns.

And the West is better? Your Top 9 is easily better, but the rest of the conference is so pitiful that it inflates your stats/records. Unfortunately, the East doesn't have those luxuries.

Even this season, your Top 9 is better than our top 9, but your #10 is better than only one team in the East...our Cellar Dwellar. And if the West is "10 time harder" then why can your #10 be worse than all but one teams...let alone the rest of the teams in yoru conference?

But of course, "everybody" who "knows" this wnats to overlook these minor details (aka FACTS).

lilyoder6
04-24-2009, 09:47 AM
How far they went into the playoffs? HAHAHA They got punted out of the first round both seasons by the Suns.

And the West is better? Your Top 9 is easily better, but the rest of the conference is so pitiful that it inflates your stats/records. Unfortunately, the East doesn't have those luxuries.

Even this season, your Top 9 is better than our top 9, but your #10 is better than only one team in the East...our Cellar Dwellar. And if the West is "10 time harder" then why can your #10 be worse than all but one teams...let alone the rest of the teams in yoru conference?

But of course, "everybody" who "knows" this wnats to overlook these minor details (aka FACTS).

well last time i checked.. only the top 8 teams made it to the playoffs.. so the 10 seed wouldn't affect the nba playoffs...

and in the 05/06 playoffs.. the east had teams 5-8 being the highest at 512 and lower
the lowest in the west was 537 by 2 teams

in the 04/05 and 06/07 the east were better % wise.. but so was the west, they have always been strong

lilyoder6
04-24-2009, 09:49 AM
In recent days, James, when given the opportunity for the final shot in the Eastern Conference Finals vs. the Detroit Pistons, has taken two different paths, and he has been ripped both times. In Game 1, James decided to pass the ball in the waning seconds, and the uproar in the aftermath shook the stadium and the TV airwaves, as ESPN decided to tee off on the subject. In Game 2, James, with his team down by one point, ran the clock down to about seven seconds (a mistake by Cleveland coach Mike Brown, you want to extend the game at that point) and then drove to the basket. James used the left hand in the initial move, then spun back to his right. Hamilton hammered him on the way up, and the loud no-call from the officials left James in the dust.



Read more: "Is LeBron James a victim? Why the superstar's critics should take it easy . . . for now" - http://nba.suite101.com/article.cfm/is_lebron_james_a_victim#ixzz0DbPb7kRW&A


well it looks like he got ripped both ways b/c he wasn't man enough 2 take the shot.. and then he got ripped b/c he not clutch

xfl2001fan
04-24-2009, 11:17 AM
well last time i checked.. only the top 8 teams made it to the playoffs.. so the 10 seed wouldn't affect the nba playoffs...

and in the 05/06 playoffs.. the east had teams 5-8 being the highest at 512 and lower
the lowest in the west was 537 by 2 teams

in the 04/05 and 06/07 the east were better % wise.. but so was the west, they have always been strong

When you are looking at the Top 8 teams from each conference, are you looking at their record to say that they are better? Because the Top 8 teams have 6 teams that are worse than all but 1 team in the East. That will inflate your records quite a bit. Granted, that's just for this season. Back in 05-06 the East was better, pretty much top to bottom. 06-07 season there was a shift towards the East, but the West was better. If there was any movement in 07-08, it was possible a slight shift in favor of the West again...but 08-09, a significant movement towards the East.

Our "Big Three" are better than your "Big Three" in the East. Your Mid Round Playoffs are beter than our Mid-Round Playoffs.
But your non-playoff teams (other than the Suns) were simply atrocious all the way down. They were worse than all but one of our teams in all of the East. The West records are inflated by the absolute suckitude in the bottom half of the league.

xfl2001fan
04-24-2009, 11:26 AM
In recent days, James, when given the opportunity for the final shot in the Eastern Conference Finals vs. the Detroit Pistons, has taken two different paths, and he has been ripped both times. In Game 1, James decided to pass the ball in the waning seconds, and the uproar in the aftermath shook the stadium and the TV airwaves, as ESPN decided to tee off on the subject. In Game 2, James, with his team down by one point, ran the clock down to about seven seconds (a mistake by Cleveland coach Mike Brown, you want to extend the game at that point) and then drove to the basket. James used the left hand in the initial move, then spun back to his right. Hamilton hammered him on the way up, and the loud no-call from the officials left James in the dust.



Read more: "Is LeBron James a victim? Why the superstar's critics should take it easy . . . for now" - http://nba.suite101.com/article.cfm/is_lebron_james_a_victim#ixzz0DbPb7kRW&A


well it looks like he got ripped both ways b/c he wasn't man enough 2 take the shot.. and then he got ripped b/c he not clutch

Aww, look, that's cute. You found an article in 2007 where he made the smart basketball play in game 1 (pass to the open man) and claim he's scared.

Then, you use that same article to show that he missed on a shot where he was clearly fouled but didn't get the call and say he's not clutch. I didn't realize that shots that don't go in because the other team cheats counts against you. My bad.

Sorry buddy, you have to dig up better than that.

Nice of you to overlook this phrase from that article

But the kid shouldn't be crucified for these borderline errors.

Read more: "Is LeBron James a victim? Why the superstar's critics should take it easy . . . for now" - http://nba.suite101.com/article.cfm/is_lebron_james_a_victim#ixzz0DboD53YW&A

You also ignore these juicy bits to fit into your own criteria:

After all, the greats of the game got wins in all shapes and sizes. What if John Paxton and Steve Kerr didn't hit their buzzer beaters? Would Michael Jordan have been on the hot seat? What about Larry Bird passing off to Dennis Johnson in the waning seconds of the series with the Pistons? Would everyone be questioning Larry Legend?

lilyoder6
04-24-2009, 01:39 PM
i didn't leave anything out.. i was just showing u that ppl were critizing his actions. skippy..

and the teams in the west like a memphis and thunder.. they are on the way up...

kevin durant will dick on anyone for the next 10 yrs.. even lebron

lilyoder6
04-24-2009, 01:50 PM
obv, this thread is kind of pointless b/c it will go back and forth....

but rly the only way to compare the 2 are head to head matchups.. just like anything else

and in the category kobe is 2-0 this yr

lilyoder6
04-24-2009, 01:55 PM
here is a good article done back feb 1 of 08
obv it has been a yr since.. so u had the fact that kobe won the mvp, and made it to the nba championship last yr.. and has them looking at another possbile mvp and nba championship..
lebron took the celtics to the brink last yr and this yr has a possible mvp and nba championship

Sports is an outlet for many people to voice their opinions of players and teams, debate with friends over who is the best player in the history of a specific sport, or which team is the greatest of all time. This is a blog designed partly for the reasons listed above. Now its time for me to put my two cents in regarding a debate that has become pretty heated within the past couple of seasons in the NBA; Lebron vs. Kobe. Not head to head in a game, but head to head in talent, skills, leadership, and career numbers. Lebron vs. Kobe: Who will be remembered more for their accomplishments? Who will be the most successful NBA player out of the two?

In this his 12th season in the league, Bryant has surpassed many of the expectations that fans and his franchise dreamed of when he was drafted right out of Lower Merion High School by the Charlotte Hornets with the 13th overall pick. Bryant never played a game for the Hornets, who traded him to the Lakers for Vlade Divac, the then starting center for Los Angeles. Bryant was also the first guard in league history to be drafted into the NBA right out of high school.



Since his arrival in L.A., Byrant has won three NBA titles, in 2001, 2002, and 2003. To go along with the titles he has many other accomplishments on his mantle:

In 1997 he won the slam dunk contest.
In the 1997-1998 season he was the runner-up for the league’s sixth man of the year award while also becoming the league’s youngest all-star starter.
He has been named the league’s All-Star Game MVP twice (2002, 2007).
He is a two-time scoring champion (2006, 2007).
He is a 10-time NBA All-Star (all starts and all consecutive).
He is also the youngest player in league history to reach 20,000 career points.
Not bad for only an example of some of his accolades .

Here are some of Kobe’s career numbers:

He has a career average of 24.6 PPG.
He has a career average of 23.3 PPG in the playoffs (131 Games Played). The team, since Kobe’s arrival, has missed the playoffs in only one season (2004-2005).
As a guard he has a career average of 5.2 RPG.
NBA records:

Most three-point field goals made in one game (12-shared with Donyell Marshall).
Most three-point field goals made in one half: 8.
Most consecutive three-point field goals made in one game: 9 (shared with Latrell Sprewell and Ben Gordon).
Most free throws made in one quarter: 14 (shared with five players).
Most free throws attempted in one quarter: 16 (shared with six players).
Bryant also holds or shares 26 Lakers franchise records. Here is a small list of those achievements:

Points in a season: 2,832 (2005-06).
Points in a game: 81 (January 22, 2006 vs. Raptors).
Most three-pointers attempted in a season: 518 (2005-06).
Steals in a half: 6 (tied with three players).
Games scoring 50 points or more in a season: 10 (2006-07).
Games scoring 50 points or more all-time: 21.
Consecutive games of 50 points or more: 4.
Games scoring 40 points or more all-time: 88 (shared with Elgin Baylor).
Games scoring 40 points or more in a season: 27 (2005-06).
Yet again, those numbers really don’t get any better than that.

Now that we have looked at only some of Kobe’s accomplishments and accolades (and I can’t stress enough that they are only SOME of his achievements), let’s now take a look at “The King,” Lebron James.

James was drafted out of high school in 2003 with the first pick overall by the Cleveland Cavaliers. In his first NBA game, against the Kings, he recorded 25 points, 9 assists, and 6 rebounds. He was the youngest player in league history to ever record 40+ points in a game, when he had 41 in a game versus the Nets that same season.

Here are James’ accolades:

Named ROY for 2003-2004. (only third player in history alongside Michael Jordan and Oscar Robertson to average at least 20 points, 5 assists, and 5 rebounds per game in their rookie season).
Youngest ROY in league history.
First Cavalier to receive ROY Award.
NBA All-Star Game MVP in 2006
Averaged 31.4 PPG in 2005-06.
Returned Cavalier franchise to glory with the club’s first-ever appearance in the NBA Finals in 2006-07, with a loss to the Spurs.
He has four All-Star game appearances, including this season, which are consecutive.
This list, compared to Kobe’s, is significantly smaller. You do have to look at the fact that this is only James’ 5th year in the league and it is Kobe’s 12th, but you also have to look at everything Kobe has accomplished very early in his career. His first title, in 2000, came in his 4th year in the league. That’s impressive. Even though James and the Cavaliers have had back-to-back playoff appearances; his career, compared to Kobe’s at this time, pales in comparison. I think its safe to say that Bryant is the better player of the two and will go down in history as one of the greatest to ever play the game. Will Lebron? Maybe. But he has a lot of work to do if he wants to be held in the same breath as Kobe Bryant.

Now don’t get me wrong folks, I am not writing this article as a fan of either of the two players mentioned within. I am writing this article as a unbiased onlooker. I do not root for either team, never have, never will. Sadly, I am a Sixers fan, and always have been. I simply decided to write this article because many people ask me who is the better player and I just wanted to confirm my stance that it is Bryant over James based on sheer accomplishments, records, and championships. Bryant holds numerous scoring records for a season and game; James, none. Bryant won a title in his fourth season in the league; James in his fourth season was swept in four games by the Spurs in the NBA Finals. Kobe is the better of the two and will remain to be. James will never reach Kobe’s status in records or championships, period.

xfl2001fan
04-24-2009, 02:03 PM
Again, this guy is making a comparison based on rings because Kobe had more TALENT on his team than Lebron has had. Kobe wasn't even the star in those championships...he was the sidekick to Shaq. Since Shaq left, Shaq won another ring and Kobe...Nothing.

He's comparing a careers worth of achievements, vs 4 years worth.

Don't know what a slam dunk contest means in regards to NBA Accomplishments, but Lebron has never bothered to enter one.

He mentions that Kobe exceeds expectations for a guy drafted out of high school...but when a guy is drafted out of high school (IMO) you expect great things from them...so I'm not sure how that has any bearing. Besides, as mentioned before, in Kobe's first 4 years, he doesn't stack with James...the only thing he has that James doesn't is rings...and it's based on TEAM talent...not individual talent.

xfl2001fan
04-24-2009, 02:04 PM
i didn't leave anything out.. i was just showing u that ppl were critizing his actions. skippy..

and the teams in the west like a memphis and thunder.. they are on the way up...

kevin durant will dick on anyone for the next 10 yrs.. even lebron

You know what, it's funny that you should mention that...because I had already posted that he was criticized for making the smart basketball play in the early going. I assume you mean Durant will dunk...at least I hope so.

Durant might dunk on Lebron...but he won't do it with near the authority that Lebron will when he returns the favor.

***********ADDITION***********

Speaking of Clutch, how'd that game go last night? Utah 88, Lakers 86...who took (and missed) the last shot of the game again? Somebody please remind me.

lilyoder6
04-24-2009, 10:11 PM
You know what, it's funny that you should mention that...because I had already posted that he was criticized for making the smart basketball play in the early going. I assume you mean Durant will dunk...at least I hope so.

Durant might dunk on Lebron...but he won't do it with near the authority that Lebron will when he returns the favor.

***********ADDITION***********

Speaking of Clutch, how'd that game go last night? Utah 88, Lakers 86...who took (and missed) the last shot of the game again? Somebody please remind me.

no i meant dick.. it just means that he is going to school evryone badly the next 10 yrs.. it's a generation thing i guess..

and the game last night... i mean i hope u don't expect evryone to make evry shot.. lebron took shots this season to win or tie a game and he missed... shot.. jordan couldn't even make evry shot

lilyoder6
04-24-2009, 10:22 PM
He mentions that Kobe exceeds expectations for a guy drafted out of high school...but when a guy is drafted out of high school (IMO) you expect great things from them...so I'm not sure how that has any bearing. Besides, as mentioned before, in Kobe's first 4 years, he doesn't stack with James...the only thing he has that James doesn't is rings...and it's based on TEAM talent...not individual talent.

well when kobe came out of HS to when lebron came out of HS there were prob 2 totally different veiws of someone doing that...

and lebron prob has a better start b/c he was drafted to a shitty team and automatcially started

the lakers had Van Exel and Eddie Jones as there guards.. and they were pretty good back in the day.. so it was hard for a 17 yr kid to break the starting line up

and when he finally did start, or when he emerged. in the 98-99 season.. that was a lockout season and there was only 50 games played..

tony hipchest
04-24-2009, 10:45 PM
here is a good article done back feb 1 of 08
obv it has been a yr since.. so u had the fact that kobe won the mvp, and made it to the nba championship last yr.. and has them looking at another possbile mvp and nba championship..
lebron took the celtics to the brink last yr and this yr has a possible mvp and nba championship

.sorry lilyoder, but i understood absolutely no part of that article, whatsoever, without all the shorthand. :wink02:

good job. i still think james can surpass all those kobe records, especially if he gets out of cleveland and goes to a team like LA. (kobe probably has half of those records if he spent his entire career in charlotte).

ive always claimed philly as one of my teams, since its the only BB pennsylvania has. rooting for dr. j or AI didnt hurt either.

xfl2001fan
04-25-2009, 01:33 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?page=ScoutingPistonsCavaliers

James: He is the likely MVP, best player in the world, now a top-notch defender, with an Olympic gold medal.

Published 17 April.

I know lilyoder likes to find articles that are old that support his theory...well, I found one that was a little over a week old that says Lebron is better.

SteelersinCA
04-25-2009, 01:59 PM
That's 1 dude from scouts Inc. I still think the NBA GM survey is a better indicator.

xfl2001fan
04-25-2009, 02:10 PM
That's 1 dude from scouts Inc. I still think the NBA GM survey is a better indicator.

Depends on how the questioning is phrased. Loaded questions are still loaded question...and how much of the Kobe Hype is just that...Hype?

Here's a tidbit for you:

If nothing else, it continues the fact that the Cavs have never lost a first-round series in the LeBron era.

Yup, short era...but even without talent (other than Lebron) it's still held up.

SteelersinCA
04-25-2009, 02:28 PM
Haha, yeah you're right Kobe is just major Hype, he can't back it up.:funny:

What does winning a first round series get you? If you're happy with that, so be it. Here's another stat for you. Lakers are 1-0 in Cleveland this year. Cavs are 0-1 in LA. See how fun meaningless stats are?

Oh and what about "Who is better" is loaded?

lilyoder6
04-25-2009, 03:12 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?page=ScoutingPistonsCavaliers

James: He is the likely MVP, best player in the world, now a top-notch defender, with an Olympic gold medal.

Published 17 April.

I know lilyoder likes to find articles that are old that support his theory...well, I found one that was a little over a week old that says Lebron is better.

i don't have the time u do to look at a gazillion pages of google...

i actually have a life and don't have time to search and search on google

xfl2001fan
04-25-2009, 03:15 PM
Haha, yeah you're right Kobe is just major Hype, he can't back it up.:funny:

What does winning a first round series get you? If you're happy with that, so be it. Here's another stat for you. Lakers are 1-0 in Cleveland this year. Cavs are 0-1 in LA. See how fun meaningless stats are?

Oh and what about "Who is better" is loaded?

What I mean by the whole Hype thing...I can't begin to tell you how many games I've seen Kobe play where coasts defensively for 43 minutes...only to "turn it on" for 5 at the end of the game. He's given these great accolades as a defender...but is it as deserved as the hype would suggest? If he's such a great defender, why does he need to turn it on at the end of the game. If he maintained it during the game...the game would be put away.

Winning a first round series is the first step. Is it enough for me? Please, I'm a Cleveland Fan. I'm STARVING for a championship. But still, if you have to make comparisons...Kobe failed twice to get out of the first round...Lebron has yet to do so.

I should have added the smiley :flap: to my "loaded question" comment.

Whether it's a GM or a Scout, they're paid to observe players and make decisions. Kobe has a career behind him...Lebron has one in front.

Kobe should have an MVP trophy...I just think he got it during the wrong season...he was cheated out of one a few years ago (I believe it was Nash's 2nd???).

xfl2001fan
04-25-2009, 03:16 PM
i don't have the time u do to look at a gazillion pages of google...

i actually have a life and don't have time to search and search on google

Google? That's ESPN. The only reason why I saw it was because I was trying to catch up on the rest of the Playoffs when I caught on to a "Scouts" page for each matchup. They're fun reads.

lilyoder6
04-25-2009, 03:34 PM
ur scout said he was the best...

last yr at the end of the season.. mostly evryone involved in the nba said kobe was the greatest on the planet...

they prob have another poll at the end of this season....



and how funny is this.
they interviewed that lil drama queen paul peirce & he said that he was the best not kobe

xfl2001fan
04-25-2009, 03:39 PM
ur scout said he was the best...

last yr at the end of the season.. mostly evryone involved in the nba said kobe was the greatest on the planet...

they prob have another poll at the end of this season....



and how funny is this.
they interviewed that lil drama queen paul peirce & he said that he was the best not kobe

The scout, a week ago, said that he was the best. Your item (last year) said something different. Dates matter. At the end of the season, or beginning of next, you're right, there will likely be another poll.

I'm not surprised that Paul thinks he's the best. You have to believe in yourself in the NBA. I don't know that I'd put Pierce in my Top 5 right now. I'd have to think about it.

SteelersinCA
04-25-2009, 03:42 PM
Please, I'm a Cleveland Fan. I'm STARVING for a championship. But still, if you have to make comparisons...Kobe failed twice to get out of the first round...Lebron has yet to do so.


Truer words have never been spoken regarding being a Cleveland fan, sorry sometimes I forget since it's a Steelers forum and we're pretty used to winnings Championships! :chuckle: If we are going to make those sorts of comparisons should we start with the ring thing? Or is that permanently off limits until Lebron wins 3? :noidea:

SteelersinCA
04-25-2009, 03:43 PM
I don't know that I'd put Pierce in my Top 5 right now. I'd have to think about it.

Last year Pierce owned Lebron's face in the playoffs, this year not so much.

xfl2001fan
04-25-2009, 06:28 PM
Truer words have never been spoken regarding being a Cleveland fan, sorry sometimes I forget since it's a Steelers forum and we're pretty used to winnings Championships! :chuckle: If we are going to make those sorts of comparisons should we start with the ring thing? Or is that permanently off limits until Lebron wins 3? :noidea:

Rings? If Kobe had won those rings (instead of Shaq) I'd say you have a fair argument in your favor. Kobe's team won those rings. If Rings become an argument then Robert Horry is better than Kobe. Scottie Pippen is WAY better than Kobe too.

SteelersinCA
04-25-2009, 09:15 PM
Well then how about we just say how many times has Kobe been out of the first round vs Lebron? My point is, making it out of the first round is a meaningless stat. There is no value in bringing it up. Similar to the rings comment, you catching on now? Off to watch Kobe dominate.

xfl2001fan
04-25-2009, 09:21 PM
Well then how about we just say how many times has Kobe been out of the first round vs Lebron? My point is, making it out of the first round is a meaningless stat. There is no value in bringing it up. Similar to the rings comment, you catching on now? Off to watch Kobe dominate.

Touche my friend. Touche.

If you're a Lakers fan, you'd better hope that Kobe is hungrier tonight than he was a few nights ago. The Lakers looked awful.

SteelersinCA
04-25-2009, 10:09 PM
He's hungry baby!!!!

SteelersinCA
04-25-2009, 11:46 PM
Kobe was UNSTOPPABLE. Virtually every shot he had a hand in his face and it didn't matter.

MACH1
04-26-2009, 12:11 AM
Kobe was UNSTOPPABLE. Virtually every shot he had a hand in his face and it didn't matter.

And thats why he's better. Thats how you take over a game!

Like Sir Charles says "best player on the planet"

lilyoder6
04-26-2009, 10:18 AM
i saw some glances of the game last night.. and kobe was amazing.. he was not going to lose..

xfl2001fan
04-26-2009, 10:45 AM
Seems like he had a pretty damn good game...I guess when you consider the law of averages, he was bound to have one of those...especially after his Game 3 schellacking.

MACH1
04-26-2009, 12:07 PM
Seems like he had a pretty damn good game...I guess when you consider the law of averages, he was bound to have one of those...especially after his Game 3 schellacking.

:doh::doh:

xfl2001fan
04-26-2009, 12:14 PM
:doh::doh:

What? That was a damn good performance by any super star standard. He's definitely an all-star, I don't question that. The thing is, his game 3 performance was beyond sub-par for Kobe...it was down right shitty. So, when the Law of Averages comes into effect, yeah, he was going to have his breakout game.

While LA has this series all but wrapped up, I wonder if Utah can't pull off one in LA just to keep it interesting.

MACH1
04-26-2009, 03:27 PM
Law of averages says the browns will have a winning season some year too.

Steel_12
04-26-2009, 04:19 PM
Per:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/career_stats.html
You are referencing the 05-06/06-07 seasons.

35.4 PPG, 4.5 APG, 5.3 RPG, 1.8 SPG, and 3.13 TO. (10th season in NBA, 8th as a full-time starter)
31.6 PPG, 5.4 APG, 5.7 RPG, 1.4 SPG, and 3.31 TO. (11th season in the NBA, 9th as a full time starter)

http://www.lakersuniverse.com/playoffs/roster2006.htm
05-06 Roster had
Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Sasha Vujacic, Aaron McKie, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm and Andrew Bynum (Rookie)

06-07 Roster added Vladimir Radmanovic and lost no one of note. Drafted Jordan Farmar

By contrast, Lebron had:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/career_stats.html

31.4 PPG, 6.6 APG, 7.0 RPG, 1.6 SPG and 3.29 TO (3rd season in NBA)
27.3 PPG, 6.0 APG, 6.7 RPG, 1.6 SPG and 3.21 TO (4th season in NBA, lost in Championship to San Antonio)

05-06 Starters: Z, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes (new FA), Eric Snow and James,
Donyell Marshall (new FA), Damon Jones (new FA), Sasha Pavlovic, Ira Newble, Anderson Varejao and Flip Murray saw significant time. Mike Browns first year as a coach, new offense, defense, etc...

06-07 Starters:
Z, Gooden, Pavlovic and Huges are starters with LBJ.
Marshall, Varejao, Jones, Gibson (rookie) and Snow still see significant minutes.

Yeah, hardly a stellar cast. Despite the lack of a cast, LBJ took the Cavs further in the playoffs than Kobe took the Lakers (who were put out both times in the first round by the Suns).

Neither team had good supporting casts. Kobe is the better scorer and defender and is the most feared in the game today. Even current and past players say the same thing. When Magic and Bird agree that Kobe is the best in the league, how can you argue with that?

As for your playoff comment...you can't compare that because they play in different conferences...The West has had better teams for years now so that point doesn't hold weight IMO. It's much easier to go thru Washington in the 1st round than Phoenix.

SteelersinCA
04-26-2009, 05:02 PM
The shining light of reason has shown through. Steel_12 coming through in the clutch like a game winning shot by Kobe.

xfl2001fan
04-26-2009, 08:15 PM
The shining light of reason has shown through. Steel_12 coming through in the clutch like a game winning shot by Kobe.

He missed his last opportunity in game 3. LOL Regardless, Lebron answered Kobe's performance with his own. Just shy of another triple double and (despite a slower paced game) matching records with Oscar Robertson along the way.

You can have your selfish Kobe...I'll take the team player with the lockdown D. As for Kobe's D, when was known as a great defender? Which year? It certainly wasn't his first two...and I don't recall much in the first 4. So, the "so called shining light of reason" that was proclaimed is comparing a guy's defense after his 10th season to a guys defense in his 4th. And yet, Lebron (not Kobe) was the #2 guy for DPOY. When was Kobe first in the running for that? I believe it was 4th year. But he wasn't near the offensive player that Lebron was in Year 4. Give a little, take a little.

lilyoder6
04-26-2009, 10:11 PM
He missed his last opportunity in game 3. LOL Regardless, Lebron answered Kobe's performance with his own. Just shy of another triple double and (despite a slower paced game) matching records with Oscar Robertson along the way. You can have your selfish Kobe...I'll take the team player with the lockdown D. As for Kobe's D, when was known as a great defender? Which year? It certainly wasn't his first two...and I don't recall much in the first 4. So, the "so called shining light of reason" that was proclaimed is comparing a guy's defense after his 10th season to a guys defense in his 4th. And yet, Lebron (not Kobe) was the #2 guy for DPOY. When was Kobe first in the running for that? I believe it was 4th year. But he wasn't near the offensive player that Lebron was in Year 4. Give a little, take a little.

first.. the pistons are a shell of what they once were.. jazz is better than pistons,.. pistons under 500


second.. i will take kobe and the best on ball defender,, and the championships

SteelersinCA
04-27-2009, 01:41 AM
Wasn't it you that said when a HOFer talks you should listen? Maybe you should listen to MAGIC (same guy you quoted earlier) and Bird. Just want you to be consistent is all.:chuckle:

xfl2001fan
04-27-2009, 06:53 AM
Wasn't it you that said when a HOFer talks you should listen? Maybe you should listen to MAGIC (same guy you quoted earlier) and Bird. Just want you to be consistent is all.:chuckle:

When did they say all this stuff? 2-3 years ago? Last year?

Steel_12
04-27-2009, 06:00 PM
When did they say all this stuff? 2-3 years ago? Last year?

They said it THIS year during the playoffs. They interviewed Kobe, LeBron and CP3...Magic asked LeBron how he feels about Kobe passing the torch to him.

When has Kobe been known for his D? Are you serious? He's 1st team all-defense damn near every year. He hasn't been selfish since the year after Shaq left. He's one of the best leaders in the league now. He's still the most clutch, by far!

I still don't see how anybody can compare these two since they aren't the same type of player. LeBron is Magic-like and Kobe is Jordan-esque. Either way, you can't go wrong.

xfl2001fan
04-27-2009, 06:07 PM
They said it THIS year during the playoffs. They interviewed Kobe, LeBron and CP3...Magic asked LeBron how he feels about Kobe passing the torch to him.

When has Kobe been known for his D? Are you serious? He's 1st team all-defense damn near every year. He hasn't been selfish since the year after Shaq left. He's one of the best leaders in the league now. He's still the most clutch, by far!

I still don't see how anybody can compare these two since they aren't the same type of player. LeBron is Magic-like and Kobe is Jordan-esque. Either way, you can't go wrong.

Which year in his career was Kobe known for his D? When did he start getting recognized. That question could have been phrased better. The earliest it could have been was at the end of his third season, because that was his first as a full time starter.

You don't pass a torch unless somebody is moving ahead of you.

Steel_12
04-27-2009, 06:43 PM
Which year in his career was Kobe known for his D? When did he start getting recognized. That question could have been phrased better. The earliest it could have been was at the end of his third season, because that was his first as a full time starter.

You don't pass a torch unless somebody is moving ahead of you.

He didn't have the luxury of coming in and starting right away because the Lakers still had Eddie Jones. Back then, if you came out of HS you didn't get a chance to play that often unless your team sucked. KG was the exception because Minnesota was trash. So IMO that point doesn't hold weight either. If you look up all-defensive teams, Kobe is on there the majority of his career.

He's 30 now and it's almost time to pass the torch. He's still the most dominating player in the league but LeBron is a close second. What I mean by dominating is that he can still score from anywhere on the court. I still don't see the Cavs winning the title as long as the Lakers have that core of Kobe, Odom, Pau and Bynum. Garnett being hurt also helps the Cavs but I think Cleveland still woud've beat them and lost to the Lakers in the Finals.

SteelersinCA
04-27-2009, 07:43 PM
XFL shows moments of reasonableness, but these OH fans are pretty often off their rocker. OSU, Indians, Cavs, Browns Bengals all walk on water when they are winning. They are the greatest with the greatest players and coaches.

Then they lose and are ready to throw themselves off a bridge, you gotta come into this thread knowing that.

xfl2001fan
04-27-2009, 07:48 PM
He didn't have the luxury of coming in and starting right away because the Lakers still had Eddie Jones. Back then, if you came out of HS you didn't get a chance to play that often unless your team sucked. KG was the exception because Minnesota was trash. So IMO that point doesn't hold weight either. If you look up all-defensive teams, Kobe is on there the majority of his career.

He's 30 now and it's almost time to pass the torch. He's still the most dominating player in the league but LeBron is a close second. What I mean by dominating is that he can still score from anywhere on the court. I still don't see the Cavs winning the title as long as the Lakers have that core of Kobe, Odom, Pau and Bynum. Garnett being hurt also helps the Cavs but I think Cleveland still woud've beat them and lost to the Lakers in the Finals.

Barring the Cavs having an All-Star at SF, Lebron was starting from day 1. He was ready. Plain and simple. Look at the numbers. If he wasn't ready to play from day 1, he wouldn't have had a 20-5.9-5.5 season. Decent rookies can't come in and put up those numbers. Even pretty good rookies can't put up those kinds of numbers. There are a large number of NBA players right now who can't average those numbers...and that was his worst year.

Kobe couldn't do that until his 4th season. He just wasn't ready. Kobe's good. No doubt about it. I just think that this season, James was better. In the end, you're right. It's apples and oranges. Two different players.

lilyoder6
04-27-2009, 10:08 PM
Barring the Cavs having an All-Star at SF, Lebron was starting from day 1. He was ready. Plain and simple. Look at the numbers. If he wasn't ready to play from day 1, he wouldn't have had a 20-5.9-5.5 season. Decent rookies can't come in and put up those numbers. Even pretty good rookies can't put up those kinds of numbers. There are a large number of NBA players right now who can't average those numbers...and that was his worst year.

Kobe couldn't do that until his 4th season. He just wasn't ready. Kobe's good. No doubt about it. I just think that this season, James was better. In the end, you're right. It's apples and oranges. Two different players.

i'm sry,.., but ur a moron.. don't know how many times we got 2 say this.... kobe had 2 guards in front of him when he was drafted that were good and the lakers were GOOD,,,,

when the cavs drafted lebron.. they Were SHITTY... so no shit he would start from day 1....

thats plain and simple... u can't compare when they started.. b/c kobe was actually on a good team.. and usually when ur a good team rookies don't have much playing time.. thats true for nba, nfl, mlb...

y u think certain teams are in the lottery... b/c they suck

xfl2001fan
04-27-2009, 10:44 PM
i'm sry,.., but ur a moron.. don't know how many times we got 2 say this.... kobe had 2 guards in front of him when he was drafted that were good and the lakers were GOOD,,,,

when the cavs drafted lebron.. they Were SHITTY... so no shit he would start from day 1....

thats plain and simple... u can't compare when they started.. b/c kobe was actually on a good team.. and usually when ur a good team rookies don't have much playing time.. thats true for nba, nfl, mlb...

y u think certain teams are in the lottery... b/c they suck

The Guards were decent. You make them sound like they were great. They weren't. Lebron was ready from day one. If he wasn't ready from day 1, he wouldn't have played. Regardless. Dwight Howard was ready from day 1. KG was ready from Day 1. Kobe was like the 13th player in the draft. Coming straight out of HS, that's still pretty impressive, but there's a reason why the teams picking 1-12 didn't take him. They wanted someone who was ready right out of the gates. Kobe wasn't as ready as any of the guards drafted before him. 4 guards were taken ahead of him...AI, Marbury, Ray Allen and Kittles. Is he better than those guys now? Absolutely. But he wasn't ready to play back then. It's not a knock on the guy. OHNOZ, the HS basketball phenom wasn't ready from day 1 in the NBA.

He should have gone to college for a year or two, he didn't,

Oh, and by the by, he got TRADED to the Lakers (that's right, the Lakers drafted Derk Fisher, not Kobe).

So, when you call me a moron, make sure you have your facts together.

lilyoder6
04-28-2009, 01:20 AM
The Guards were decent. You make them sound like they were great. They weren't. Lebron was ready from day one. If he wasn't ready from day 1, he wouldn't have played. Regardless. Dwight Howard was ready from day 1. KG was ready from Day 1. Kobe was like the 13th player in the draft. Coming straight out of HS, that's still pretty impressive, but there's a reason why the teams picking 1-12 didn't take him. They wanted someone who was ready right out of the gates. Kobe wasn't as ready as any of the guards drafted before him. 4 guards were taken ahead of him...AI, Marbury, Ray Allen and Kittles. Is he better than those guys now? Absolutely. But he wasn't ready to play back then. It's not a knock on the guy. OHNOZ, the HS basketball phenom wasn't ready from day 1 in the NBA.

He should have gone to college for a year or two, he didn't,

Oh, and by the by, he got TRADED to the Lakers (that's right, the Lakers drafted Derk Fisher, not Kobe).

So, when you call me a moron, make sure you have your facts together.


i knew that sherlock holmes.. it was charlotte who drafted him..

and i say those guards were better than forwards lebron had to deal with..
and again.., the game of basketball and the players coming out, and the feeling of them coming out is totally different from when lebron came out and when kobe came out...

kg played on a shitty team...
howard played on a shitty team...

they all played from day 1 b/c there teams SUCKED.. bottom line.... u suck=u starting rookies or ur forced 2 start a rookie b/c u suck so bad

revefsreleets
04-28-2009, 09:08 AM
XFL shows moments of reasonableness, but these OH fans are pretty often off their rocker. OSU, Indians, Cavs, Browns Bengals all walk on water when they are winning. They are the greatest with the greatest players and coaches.

Then they lose and are ready to throw themselves off a bridge, you gotta come into this thread knowing that.

Sweeping generalization. I'm about as even-keeled a fan as you will ever meet...in fact, judging by these boards, I'd say Steelers fans are the most fickle fans in the universe.

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 11:18 AM
i knew that sherlock holmes.. it was charlotte who drafted him..

and i say those guards were better than forwards lebron had to deal with..
and again.., the game of basketball and the players coming out, and the feeling of them coming out is totally different from when lebron came out and when kobe came out...

kg played on a shitty team...
howard played on a shitty team...

they all played from day 1 b/c there teams SUCKED.. bottom line.... u suck=u starting rookies or ur forced 2 start a rookie b/c u suck so bad

Good team or shitty team, either you are ready to play or you aren't. He wasn't.

How can you possible tell me that the thinking behind drafting a HS player was different back then? Kobe came after KG, who started 43 games his first season. He was just about ready to play in the NBA. That's why he got 28.7 MPG. KG changed the way people thought about HS players.

Kobe had 15.5 MPG. Either you are ready or you are not. Derek Fisher had 11.5 minutes that same season. The two combined to play for just over 1 half of basketball in their first season.

You draft a player...and if he's ready to play, you play said player. Period. Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and Byron Scott (in 1996) were not exactly scaring a lot of NBA teams. Nick Van Exel wasn't an all-star, Byron Scott was more of a mentor to Kobe/Fisher than a legitimate player. Eddie Jones was the 1 real player they had...but since there are 2 guards on every team (though some go with 3 in a smaller lineup), Kobe still couldn't crack the lineup for 2 more years. Kobe wasn't ready to beat out Nick Van Exel and Byron Scott? Really?

SteelersinCA
04-28-2009, 11:26 AM
Sweeping generalization. I'm about as even-keeled a fan as you will ever meet...in fact, judging by these boards, I'd say Steelers fans are the most fickle fans in the universe.

It was a very sweeping generalization, but having lived in OH for the majority of my life, I feel it is accurate. It's hard to compare an every day ordinary fan to a fan that posts on a message board. I think anyone who posts on a msg board is a step above an ordinary fan. I discount the people that come on after a bad game and say "Trade Willie Parker, bench Ben, fire Arians" and then are never heard from until the next bad snap.

That being said there is a tremendous amount of Kool-Aid being sold in OH, in my opinion.

MACH1
04-28-2009, 11:54 AM
Good team or shitty team, either you are ready to play or you aren't. He wasn't.

How can you possible tell me that the thinking behind drafting a HS player was different back then? Kobe came after KG, who started 43 games his first season. He was just about ready to play in the NBA. That's why he got 28.7 MPG. KG changed the way people thought about HS players.

Kobe had 15.5 MPG. Either you are ready or you are not. Derek Fisher had 11.5 minutes that same season. The two combined to play for just over 1 half of basketball in their first season.

You draft a player...and if he's ready to play, you play said player. Period. Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and Byron Scott (in 1996) were not exactly scaring a lot of NBA teams. Nick Van Exel wasn't an all-star, Byron Scott was more of a mentor to Kobe/Fisher than a legitimate player. Eddie Jones was the 1 real player they had...but since there are 2 guards on every team (though some go with 3 in a smaller lineup), Kobe still couldn't crack the lineup for 2 more years. Kobe wasn't ready to beat out Nick Van Exel and Byron Scott? Really?

And name one player one the cavs that was even close in talent of Nick and Byron that LBJ had to beat out? And the last time I checked it was the coach's decision if a player starts. The lakers were a playoff team when kobe got there, they didn't need him to start.

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 01:23 PM
And name one player one the cavs that was even close in talent of Nick and Byron that LBJ had to beat out? And the last time I checked it was the coach's decision if a player starts. The lakers were a playoff team when kobe got there, they didn't need him to start.

He wasn't ready. Maybe, because he has become such a dominant player these last 10 years, that you have forgotten how many bad shots, terrible spacing, etc...that he took in the few minutes he did get. That's alright. Lebron was coveted by nearly every NBA team. 12 other teams passed on Kobe. I'm just saying.

lilyoder6
04-28-2009, 02:19 PM
He wasn't ready. Maybe, because he has become such a dominant player these last 10 years, that you have forgotten how many bad shots, terrible spacing, etc...that he took in the few minutes he did get. That's alright. Lebron was coveted by nearly every NBA team. 12 other teams passed on Kobe. I'm just saying.

that don't mean jack shit where they get drafted......


maybe u have forgotten how bad lebron is from the perimeter and the FT line.. early on and still is boo boo from the perimeter and still bad on occasions from the ft line...


and if lebron is so good then why hasn't he only reached the nba championship 1 time.. in a weak eastarn conference???? and y hasn't he won a title yet?

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 02:50 PM
that don't mean jack shit where they get drafted......


maybe u have forgotten how bad lebron is from the perimeter and the FT line.. early on and still is boo boo from the perimeter and still bad on occasions from the ft line...


and if lebron is so good then why hasn't he only reached the nba championship 1 time.. in a weak eastarn conference???? and y hasn't he won a title yet?

It doesn't mean crap where they were drafted? So, you take a guy who's not ready to play over a guy who's ready to play in the early rounds? Right. Be gone with that idiotic thought. The reason why he wasn't drafted 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc...is because there were more NBA ready players available.

I'm well aware of Lebron's failings in the early going years. And yet, despite those failings, he was still a 20-5-5 guy from the get go.

Glad you bring up shooting woes. Kobe, for his career, has fired 34.1% from 3 point, and Lebron has fired 32.8%. That means, over the course of 1000 threes, Kobe will hit exactly 13 more. Not a big difference buddy. However, Lebron is averaging (for his career) 47.1% Field Goal percentage, Kobe is 45.5%. So, you can take your "everyone knows" take on that and shove it where the sun don't shine...because what "everyone knows" is mainly, false.

Kobe (absolutely) holds the edge in free throw shooting, but that is something that Lebron has worked on, especially in the last couple of years. Lebrons best season (this one) still isn't as good as Kobe's worst. But I've never said that Lebron was a better shooter, just a better scorer. See the above paragraph.

As for the Championship stuff, I believe we have gone over this before. Just in case, I'm going to say it loud and clear.

KOBE BRYANT HAS ALWAYS HAD A BETTER TEAM THAN LEBRON JAMES.

KOBE BRYANT HAS ALWAYS HAD MORE TALENT AROUND HIM THE LEBRON JAMES.

IN BASKETBALL, ONE PLAYER CANNOT WIN YOU A CHAMPIONSHIP, IT TAKES A MOTER EFFING TEAM. JORDAN DIDN'T DO IT WITHOUT PIPPEN. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK KOBE LOVING SKULL.

Do you get this? Kobe wasn't even the best player on the teams that won rings.

Every year (except for this year) Lebron has been option 1, 2 and 3...although occasionally Z has snuck in there.

Last year, Kobe was the best player on the Lakers and they lost in the championship. They lost in 6 games to a team that Lebron took 7. For that matter, so did the Hawks. Kobe couldn't do it alone.

This year, the talent around him is significantly better. He's got 3 bigs that pretty damn good in Gasol, Bynum (when healthy) and Odom. This year is Kobe's best chance at winning a ring where he's the best player on the team. Previously, it was Shaq's team with Kobe being the Pippen/Robin/Toto.

This year, the Cavaliers have surrounded Lebron by as much talent as he's ever played with in a Cavaliers uniform. I don't even believe that they're the most talented team in the league...but I believe they have the best chemistry.

Steel_12
04-28-2009, 03:26 PM
He wasn't ready. Maybe, because he has become such a dominant player these last 10 years, that you have forgotten how many bad shots, terrible spacing, etc...that he took in the few minutes he did get. That's alright. Lebron was coveted by nearly every NBA team. 12 other teams passed on Kobe. I'm just saying.

lol you're a funny dude. What the Lakers did for Kobe is what any reasonable winning team would do for their young talented players...start them off slowly. Eddie Jones averaged 17 points a game and was a proven player. Why put him on the bench for an unproven player? Kobe still averaged 15 in his second year with all the talent they had on their team.

And there was a big difference back then because KG was the first HS player drafted in a long time. I bet if Kobe was coming out of HS around the same time LeBron came out, he wouldn't have went 12th. I don't understand why you can't see that. KG opened the floodgates...

lol did you just say Kobe should have went to college? OMG, that has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard!!!

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 03:40 PM
lol you're a funny dude. What the Lakers did for Kobe is what any reasonable winning team would do for their young talented players...start them off slowly. Eddie Jones averaged 17 points a game and was a proven player. Why put him on the bench for an unproven player? Kobe still averaged 15 in his second year with all the talent they had on their team.

And there was a big difference back then because KG was the first HS player drafted in a long time. I bet if Kobe was coming out of HS around the same time LeBron came out, he wouldn't have went 12th. I don't understand why you can't see that. KG opened the floodgates...

lol did you just say Kobe should have went to college? OMG, that has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard!!!

So it's dumb to spend a year in college, refine your skills with actual game experience and improve your stock? Right. What's wrong with playing a year in college? Even Bryant has talked about playing in college. I would love to see the interview again. Of course, that worked out terribly for Carmelo Anthony, that going to college for a year.

So, the Cavaliers were unreasonable for playing Lebron from day 1? He was the most game ready starter they had (next to Z). Obviously, he must have been ready to play, because at the end of the season, there was some talk (by non-Cleveland fans no less) about him potentially being an All-Star.

Kobe wasn't. Eddie Jones was an all-star that year. Nick Van Exel and Byron Scott...not so much.

So, teams saw that KG was game ready, started 43 games and averaged 28 minutes a game...and suddenly the Lakers think that Bryant needs to sit. Why's that? Because Bryant wasn't ready. Kobe averaged 15 minutes in his second year. Still not quite ready. Got it.

Steel_12
04-28-2009, 03:46 PM
It doesn't mean crap where they were drafted? So, you take a guy who's not ready to play over a guy who's ready to play in the early rounds? Right. Be gone with that idiotic thought. The reason why he wasn't drafted 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc...is because there were more NBA ready players available.

I'm well aware of Lebron's failings in the early going years. And yet, despite those failings, he was still a 20-5-5 guy from the get go.

Glad you bring up shooting woes. Kobe, for his career, has fired 34.1% from 3 point, and Lebron has fired 32.8%. That means, over the course of 1000 threes, Kobe will hit exactly 13 more. Not a big difference buddy. However, Lebron is averaging (for his career) 47.1% Field Goal percentage, Kobe is 45.5%. So, you can take your "everyone knows" take on that and shove it where the sun don't shine...because what "everyone knows" is mainly, false.

Kobe (absolutely) holds the edge in free throw shooting, but that is something that Lebron has worked on, especially in the last couple of years. Lebrons best season (this one) still isn't as good as Kobe's worst. But I've never said that Lebron was a better shooter, just a better scorer. See the above paragraph.

As for the Championship stuff, I believe we have gone over this before. Just in case, I'm going to say it loud and clear.

KOBE BRYANT HAS ALWAYS HAD A BETTER TEAM THAN LEBRON JAMES.

KOBE BRYANT HAS ALWAYS HAD MORE TALENT AROUND HIM THE LEBRON JAMES.

IN BASKETBALL, ONE PLAYER CANNOT WIN YOU A CHAMPIONSHIP, IT TAKES A MOTER F$CKING TEAM. JORDAN DIDN'T DO IT WITHOUT PIPPEN. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK KOBE LOVING SKULL.

Do you get this? Kobe wasn't even the best player on the teams that won rings.

Every year (except for this year) Lebron has been option 1, 2 and 3...although occasionally Z has snuck in there.

Last year, Kobe was the best player on the Lakers and they lost in the championship. They lost in 6 games to a team that Lebron took 7. For that matter, so did the Hawks. Kobe couldn't do it alone.

This year, the talent around him is significantly better. He's got 3 bigs that pretty damn good in Gasol, Bynum (when healthy) and Odom. This year is Kobe's best chance at winning a ring where he's the best player on the team. Previously, it was Shaq's team with Kobe being the Pippen/Robin/Toto.

This year, the Cavaliers have surrounded Lebron by as much talent as he's ever played with in a Cavaliers uniform. I don't even believe that they're the most talented team in the league...but I believe they have the best chemistry.

NO...the reason he wasn't drafted that high is because teams weren't ready to take chances on HS talent. Those players taken before him weren't more NBA ready. That's just how it was in 96...you're so stuck on what they did in their first year that you aren't even thinking about the difference of when they came in the league.

LeBron a better scorer? Come on man...you trippin! Kobe hit 81 points in a game...averaged 35 points for a season. Kobe is the best scorer since MJ...everybody knows that except you lol

Kobe was the go to guy on the Lakers last title team. Was the best player when they lost to the Pistons also. Do you know how many good/great teams are in the West? It's difficult to go through that conference...who cares that LeBron took the Celtics to Game 7? They still lost!

This year, head to head, Kobe has outshined LeBron. 2 wins to LeBron's ZERO!

lilyoder6
04-28-2009, 03:47 PM
keep on crying.. it's ok..

so then why is mario chalmers starting for the heat when he was a 2nd rd pick and beasly who was the 2nd overall player not playing???

b/c according to u.. beasly was rdy to play from day 1.. but he ain't starting...



oh and btw.. bout the players playing def... ummm... kobe is 6 All-Defensive First Team
(2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2008)
2 All-Defensive Second Team
(2001–2002)
and lebron ain't got shit on any def awards

lilyoder6
04-28-2009, 03:50 PM
So, the Cavaliers were unreasonable for playing Lebron from day 1? He was the most game ready starter they had (next to Z). Obviously, he must have been ready to play, because at the end of the season, there was some talk (by non-Cleveland fans no less) about him potentially being an All-Star.


So, teams saw that KG was game ready, started 43 games and averaged 28 minutes a game...and suddenly the Lakers think that Bryant needs to sit. Why's that? Because Bryant wasn't ready. Kobe averaged 15 minutes in his second year. Still not quite ready. Got it.



umm no it was not unreasonable for them to start those players.. B/C THOSE TEAMS WERE HORRIBLE.... IT'S NOT NEW TO SEE A HORRIBLE TEAM START A ROOKIE

Steel_12
04-28-2009, 04:01 PM
So it's dumb to spend a year in college, refine your skills with actual game experience and improve your stock? Right. What's wrong with playing a year in college? Even Bryant has talked about playing in college. I would love to see the interview again. Of course, that worked out terribly for Carmelo Anthony, that going to college for a year.

So, the Cavaliers were unreasonable for playing Lebron from day 1? He was the most game ready starter they had (next to Z). Obviously, he must have been ready to play, because at the end of the season, there was some talk (by non-Cleveland fans no less) about him potentially being an All-Star.

Kobe wasn't. Eddie Jones was an all-star that year. Nick Van Exel and Byron Scott...not so much.

So, teams saw that KG was game ready, started 43 games and averaged 28 minutes a game...and suddenly the Lakers think that Bryant needs to sit. Why's that? Because Bryant wasn't ready. Kobe averaged 15 minutes in his second year. Still not quite ready. Got it.

WOW...Yes it's dumb to spend a year in college when you don't have to! He didn't need to refine his skills against weak competition, are you serious? I'll tell you what's wrong with playing a year in college when you don't have to...you could get injured and still be broke! Of course he talked about it...LeBron did too!!! Kobe would've went to Duke (thank God he didn't) and LeBron was considering Carolina. Melo didn't have to play college ball, he wanted to. That's why he went.

Did you even read what I typed? I said any reasonable "WINNING" team...Of course Cleveland had to start LeBron, ya'll sucked! And I never said LeBron wasn't ready to play. He shouldn't have even won any part of ROY because Carmelo had a better season and took his team to the playoffs (they sucked the year before).

Do you really think a playoff team would start an unproven rookie over an ALL-STAR??? Do you know how dumb that sounds? The Timberwolves sucked lol...geez! That's why KG played that much. If KG would've came out in 03, do you think he would've only started 43 games? NO...that should tell you the difference between the 90s and the 2000's.

Kobe averaged 15 points in his second season, not 15 minutes...Very ready! Especially playing 2nd string on a playoff team. LMAO...do you know basketball?

fansince'76
04-28-2009, 04:02 PM
:popcorn:

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 04:04 PM
NO...the reason he wasn't drafted that high is because teams weren't ready to take chances on HS talent. Those players taken before him weren't more NBA ready. That's just how it was in 96...you're so stuck on what they did in their first year that you aren't even thinking about the difference of when they came in the league.
Then tell me why KG started and Kobe didn't again? One was ready to play, the other wasn't. And yes, most of those players taken before Kobe were more NBA ready. He was part of a really deep draft class. AI was easily more ready than Kobe was.

LeBron a better scorer? Come on man...you trippin! Kobe hit 81 points in a game...averaged 35 points for a season. Kobe is the best scorer since MJ...everybody knows that except you lolYes, Kobe shot for 81 points. He's a better shooter. I have never questioned that he's a better shooter. Ever.

Kobe was the go to guy on the Lakers last title team. Was the best player when they lost to the Pistons also. Do you know how many good/great teams are in the West? It's difficult to go through that conference...who cares that LeBron took the Celtics to Game 7? They still lost! It was still Shaq's team. If it wasn't for Shaq, Kobe doesn't get those rings. Want proof, what's he done since then? He's done exactly what Lebron has done. Failed to get a ring.

This year, head to head, Kobe has outshined LeBron. 2 wins to LeBron's ZERO!
Two things, the Cavaliers were missing key players in both games. Kobe has more talented teammates (top to bottom.) Both teams are deep. Both teams are talented. But the Lakers are still the more talented team.
keep on crying.. it's ok..
I know you will.
so then why is mario chalmers starting for the heat when he was a 2nd rd pick and beasly who was the 2nd overall player not playing???
Obviously, he was more ready to play than Beasley. That's just it, the players who are ready to play start. Those that don't, ride the pine. That's the major point I was trying to make. But nitpick away.

oh and btw.. bout the players playing def... ummm... kobe is 6 All-Defensive First Team
(2000, 20032004, 20062008)
2 All-Defensive Second Team
(20012002)
and lebron ain't got shit on any def awards

Again, Kobe can be a great lockdown defender, but more often than not in his career he was an OK defender for 43 minutes and a great defender in the last 5. That's my knock on him. He has been extremely hyped. You are also comparing a player near the end of his prime with a guy who hasn't hit it yet. But that's ok. Lebron will be even more focused on defense and be more than happy to match those.

lilyoder6
04-28-2009, 04:09 PM
and like steel 12... ppl were skeptic slecting HS in the 90's and the lakers wanted him to learn b4 playing... could he of started from day 1.. i think he could.. but his coach wanted him to sit and learn...

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 04:15 PM
and like steel 12... ppl were skeptic slecting HS in the 90's and the lakers wanted him to learn b4 playing... could he of started from day 1.. i think he could.. but his coach wanted him to sit and learn...

Right, so the coaches said that he was ready to play, but we're going to sit you anyways? We think you're better than the players we have, but you're still only going to get 11 minutes a game.

That makes no sense at all. Getting 11 minutes a game as a rookie because he wasn't ready to play more than that...that sounds more like what coaches do. No matter which era you're in, the coaches want to put the best possible team on the floor. If Kobe wasn't included in that the first couple of years, there's a reason why.

lilyoder6
04-28-2009, 04:15 PM
Then tell me why KG started and Kobe didn't again? One was ready to play, the other wasn't. And yes, most of those players taken before Kobe were more NBA ready. He was part of a really deep draft class. AI was easily more ready than Kobe was. again.. b/c the lakers were good and didn't need a rookie to start.. the t-wolves absolutly sucked.. how many more times we got to say it.... they WERE SHIT, hence y they started rookies...

Obviously, he was more ready to play than Beasley. That's just it, the players who are ready to play start. Those that don't, ride the pine. That's the major point I was trying to make. But nitpick away. and thats what i was trying to say, that it doesn't matter where u get drafted.. chalmers 2nd rd, beasly, #2 overall pick


Again, Kobe can be a great lockdown defender, but more often than not in his career he was an OK defender for 43 minutes and a great defender in the last 5. That's my knock on him. He has been extremely hyped. You are also comparing a player near the end of his prime with a guy who hasn't hit it yet. But that's ok. Lebron will be even more focused on defense and be more than happy to match those.

if he is only ok in the 1sr 43.. then y is on those defensive teams at the end of the yr?? kobe made the the nba def team by his 3rd yr.. where is lebron?? he is been in the league for 5 yrs.. and hasn't made the nba def team

lilyoder6
04-28-2009, 04:18 PM
Right, so the coaches said that he was ready to play, but we're going to sit you anyways? We think you're better than the players we have, but you're still only going to get 11 minutes a game.

That makes no sense at all. Getting 11 minutes a game as a rookie because he wasn't ready to play more than that...that sounds more like what coaches do. No matter which era you're in, the coaches want to put the best possible team on the floor. If Kobe wasn't included in that the first couple of years, there's a reason why.

then explain this..

Prior to the draft, Bryant had worked out in Los Angeles, in which he scrimmaged against former Lakers players Larry Drew and Michael Cooper, and according to then-Laker manager Jerry West "marched over these people".[

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 04:19 PM
if he is only ok in the 1sr 43.. then y is on those defensive teams at the end of the yr?? kobe made the the nba def team by his 3rd yr.. where is lebron?? he is been in the league for 5 yrs.. and hasn't made the nba def team

Yup. Not yet. This season, he will. As for why he's on a defensive team at the end of the year...hype. Why does he only have one MVP in his career when Steve Nash has 2? Hype. I don't, for a second, believe that Steve Nash is better than Kobe. I think that Kobe should have gotten one of Nash's MVP trophies...and I think that last years MVP to Kobe was more a lifetime achievement award than him being the actual MVP (I think Chris Paul deserved it more last year.) Hype. Plain and simple.

Is Kobe capable of being an absolute lockdown defender? Without question. But why do guys like Shane Battier and Ron Artest do it for 30+ minutes a game and Kobe typically take it easy for 30?

Steel_12
04-28-2009, 04:23 PM
Then tell me why KG started and Kobe didn't again? One was ready to play, the other wasn't. And yes, most of those players taken before Kobe were more NBA ready. He was part of a really deep draft class. AI was easily more ready than Kobe was.

Yes, Kobe shot for 81 points. He's a better shooter. I have never questioned that he's a better shooter. Ever.

It was still Shaq's team. If it wasn't for Shaq, Kobe doesn't get those rings. Want proof, what's he done since then? He's done exactly what Lebron has done. Failed to get a ring.


Two things, the Cavaliers were missing key players in both games. Kobe has more talented teammates (top to bottom.) Both teams are deep. Both teams are talented. But the Lakers are still the more talented team.

I know you will.

Obviously, he was more ready to play than Beasley. That's just it, the players who are ready to play start. Those that don't, ride the pine. That's the major point I was trying to make. But nitpick away.



Again, Kobe can be a great lockdown defender, but more often than not in his career he was an OK defender for 43 minutes and a great defender in the last 5. That's my knock on him. He has been extremely hyped. You are also comparing a player near the end of his prime with a guy who hasn't hit it yet. But that's ok. Lebron will be even more focused on defense and be more than happy to match those.

Do I really have to repeat the same thing over and over again? KG played for the Minnesota Timberwolves...come on man...for real...the Minnesota Timberwolves!!!! That's why he started! If Charlotte weren't idiots and kept Kobe, he would've started on that team...EASILY!!! He went to a playoff team with an all-star at his position...what are you not understanding?

Kobe is a better scorer and defender...There's nothing you can really say about that.

LeBron has gotten better defensively but that wasn't hard to do because he didn't play any in his first 5 years. Kobe extremely hyped? The best player since MJ is over-hyped? By the end of his career he could be better than MJ...it's possible.

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 04:24 PM
then explain this..

Prior to the draft, Bryant had worked out in Los Angeles, in which he scrimmaged against former Lakers players Larry Drew and Michael Cooper, and according to then-Laker manager Jerry West "marched over these people".[

Who in the hell is Larry Drew and Michael Cooper? Also, are we talking a one-on-one scrimmage, or a 5 on 5 scrimmage? You see, there are HUGE differences in the way you go about that. How old where they when they scrimmaged?

If you're talking about the former NBA player Larry Drew, he was born in 1958. He was damn near 40. He played for 10 seasons.

Michael Cooper was born in 1956. His last NBA season was 1990.

Seriously. That's your counter argument? The 18 year old "phenom" was able to "March over these people" in 1 on 1 assignments 6-7 years after they had hung up their shorts?

BWAHAHAHAHA

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 04:25 PM
Do I really have to repeat the same thing over and over again? KG played for the Minnesota Timberwolves...come on man...for real...the Minnesota Timberwolves!!!! That's why he started! If Charlotte weren't idiots and kept Kobe, he would've started on that team...EASILY!!! He went to a playoff team with an all-star at his position...what are you not understanding?

Kobe is a better scorer and defender...There's nothing you can really say about that.

LeBron has gotten better defensively but that wasn't hard to do because he didn't play any in his first 5 years. Kobe extremely hyped? The best player since MJ is over-hyped? By the end of his career he could be better than MJ...it's possible.

You just lost all credibility. I'm done with you.

Steel_12
04-28-2009, 04:27 PM
Right, so the coaches said that he was ready to play, but we're going to sit you anyways? We think you're better than the players we have, but you're still only going to get 11 minutes a game.

That makes no sense at all. Getting 11 minutes a game as a rookie because he wasn't ready to play more than that...that sounds more like what coaches do. No matter which era you're in, the coaches want to put the best possible team on the floor. If Kobe wasn't included in that the first couple of years, there's a reason why.

Kobe wouldn't have started over an all-star...and the era does matter.

Steel_12
04-28-2009, 04:31 PM
Yup. Not yet. This season, he will. As for why he's on a defensive team at the end of the year...hype. Why does he only have one MVP in his career when Steve Nash has 2? Hype. I don't, for a second, believe that Steve Nash is better than Kobe. I think that Kobe should have gotten one of Nash's MVP trophies...and I think that last years MVP to Kobe was more a lifetime achievement award than him being the actual MVP (I think Chris Paul deserved it more last year.) Hype. Plain and simple.

Is Kobe capable of being an absolute lockdown defender? Without question. But why do guys like Shane Battier and Ron Artest do it for 30+ minutes a game and Kobe typically take it easy for 30?

lol and I have lost credibility...wow!

The reason Artest and Battier do it for 30+ is because they can't score like Kobe! Kobe does it for more than 30+ anyway. Have you played b-ball before? If your legs are tired, your shot is off yet Kobe still finds a way to hit 30 a game.

lilyoder6
04-28-2009, 04:31 PM
Who in the hell is Larry Drew and Michael Cooper? Also, are we talking a one-on-one scrimmage, or a 5 on 5 scrimmage? You see, there are HUGE differences in the way you go about that. How old where they when they scrimmaged?

If you're talking about the former NBA player Larry Drew, he was born in 1958. He was damn near 40. He played for 10 seasons.

Michael Cooper was born in 1956. His last NBA season was 1990.

Seriously. That's your counter argument? The 18 year old "phenom" was able to "March over these people" in 1 on 1 assignments 6-7 years after they had hung up their shorts?

BWAHAHAHAHA

just b/c they retired from the league.. they lost all of there talent??? ur a moron.. they could still play.. there are players in the league today that are in there 30's and still performing at a high lvl..

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 04:35 PM
just b/c they retired from the league.. they lost all of there talent??? ur a moron.. they could still play.. there are players in the league today that are in there 30's and still performing at a high lvl..

Playing in your 30's and playing well at 38/40 when you've been out of the league for 5+ years is different. If you're still playing, you're working out harder, you're still refining your technique and such. These guys weren't. They might still be working out...but not nearly as hard.

Steel_12
04-28-2009, 04:39 PM
You just lost all credibility. I'm done with you.

Great...ignore the rest of the post. I guess it made too much sense for you to come back with anything.

lol be done then...I see you're one of those "MJ will be the greatest forever" type people. Kobe is a better scorer than MJ at this point of his career. He can score from anywhere on the court...MJ developed his J later on in his career. The only thing Kobe can get better at is being a better leader, which he's doing. By the end of Kobe's career, he will have passed MJ in many categories and that's without starting his first 2 years in the league. I love MJ to death and so does damn near everybody...I guess that's why Kobe's haters won't admit how great Kobe is. The hate for Kobe is ridiculous and unfounding!

MACH1
04-28-2009, 04:40 PM
Kobe's better!!

lilyoder6
04-28-2009, 04:40 PM
Playing in your 30's and playing well at 38/40 when you've been out of the league for 5+ years is different. If you're still playing, you're working out harder, you're still refining your technique and such. These guys weren't. They might still be working out...but not nearly as hard.

ok.. so that would just mean they wouldn't be able to go thru a 82 game season.. but i can bet they could play enough games at a high lvl....

u just don't lose ur talent,.. they could still lace up the shoe laces and go out and play.. maybe not a 82 game season.. but they could still play

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 07:42 PM
ok.. so that would just mean they wouldn't be able to go thru a 82 game season.. but i can bet they could play enough games at a high lvl....

u just don't lose ur talent,.. they could still lace up the shoe laces and go out and play.. maybe not a 82 game season.. but they could still play

Yes, because after taking 5+ years off, it's easy to lace up and go against a guy who's less than half your age and is in pretty damn good shape.

While their talent wouldn't be lost, the muscle memory will be. Talent is nothing with out a way of exercising it...whether it's a talent for basketball (and literally exercising) or a talent for writing...You have to continue to use your talent in order to sustain it.

But sure, 5 years later, they turned the key on their dormant talent and it just started right up for them. :coffee:

MACH1
04-28-2009, 08:17 PM
Kobe's still better!

SteelersinCA
04-28-2009, 09:27 PM
Kobe would have started on the Cavs when Lebron did, Lebron would not have started on the Lakers when Kobe did, next please.

xfl2001fan
04-28-2009, 11:43 PM
Kobe would have started on the Cavs when Lebron did, Lebron would not have started on the Lakers when Kobe did, next please.

Sure...and that comes from where?

SteelersinCA
04-29-2009, 12:53 AM
Well you and I could have started on the Cavs the year Lebron did so is that really an accomplishment?

revefsreleets
04-29-2009, 09:15 AM
Kobe would have started on the Cavs when Lebron did, Lebron would not have started on the Lakers when Kobe did, next please.

Wow, glad I got out of this ridiculous thread when I did...is everyone in hear smoking crack!

lilyoder6
04-29-2009, 10:50 AM
Wow, glad I got out of this ridiculous thread when I did...is everyone in hear smoking crack!

yea.. i would say that kobe would of started on the cavs if he was in the draft instead of lebron...

lilyoder6
04-29-2009, 10:52 AM
Yes, because after taking 5+ years off, it's easy to lace up and go against a guy who's less than half your age and is in pretty damn good shape.

While their talent wouldn't be lost, the muscle memory will be. Talent is nothing with out a way of exercising it...whether it's a talent for basketball (and literally exercising) or a talent for writing...You have to continue to use your talent in order to sustain it.

But sure, 5 years later, they turned the key on their dormant talent and it just started right up for them. :coffee:

well obviosuly u never played sports.. b/c u would know that after a min or two.. u are set and rdy to play...... even if u have been on a 5 yr break.,...

xfl2001fan
04-29-2009, 11:46 AM
well obviosuly u never played sports.. b/c u would know that after a min or two.. u are set and rdy to play...... even if u have been on a 5 yr break.,...

I have played sports. Played through high school and am in military based intramural leagues throughout the year.

Obviously you have never played sports at a high level before, because you'd know you can't just turn it on like that. That's why guys that are recovering from an injury have to "knock the rust off". For that matter, players in preseason and the first couple games are still trying to do that. What about players in contract hold outs? Why can't they suddenly just come in and perform at a high level?

But you think a couple of 38+ year old men can "turn it on" after a minute or two.

When it comes to playing sports, you just proved how little you actually know. I'm done with you now. Bye bye.

revefsreleets
04-29-2009, 12:07 PM
Is anyone here REALLY asserting that LeBron would not have cracked the Lakers starting line-up his rookie year?

Really?

SteelersinCA
04-29-2009, 12:58 PM
Is anyone here REALLY asserting that LeBron would not have cracked the Lakers starting line-up his rookie year?

Really?

Considering Eddie Jones was the starting forward for the Lakers in 1996 and he made the all-star team in 96-97, 97-98 and 99-00, that is exactly what I am suggesting. You're going to start a rookie over an All-star? I think not.

And before you compare stats, if Lebron played with someone like Shaq now, he would NOT be averaging 25-30pts a game. The points would be distributed more evenly between the two. Lebron averaged 20.9 pts his rookie season on a god awful Cavs team, doubtful he averages 20.9 on the Lakers with Shaq. Eddie Jones averaged 17.2 and made the All-star team, Lebron isn't starting.

SteelersinCA
04-29-2009, 01:20 PM
LeBron might average 25-30 if he had a Shaq on his team now because those would be the go to guys. However, the Lakers had a much better team Kobe's rookie year than the Cavs did Lebrons. Conventional wisdom would dictate if Lebron, in his rookie season, was on a better team he wouldn't average 20 pts a game. He was the go to guy in cleveland from day 1, partly because they blew, partly because he was good.

If he were on the 96-97 Lakers he would have had Shaq in front of him and Eddie Jones. So his production would logically have been less. I'd venture to say he would have been used a lot like Kobe was.

xfl2001fan
04-29-2009, 01:40 PM
Considering Eddie Jones was the starting forward for the Lakers in 1996

Really? Because according to these sites:

http://www.lakersuniverse.com/seasons/1995_1996_roster.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Jones_(basketball) (Shooting Guard)

Eddie Jones is a guard. That's funny.

SteelersinCA
04-29-2009, 02:14 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1997.html
http://www.nba.com/mavericks/roster/2007/ That's last years Mavericks official website, G-F. Still funny?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1997_start.html There's the 1996 Lakers starting line-ups, still funny??????

G-F, isn't that what Lebron was his rookie season? Look, I get it, you're from Ohio, Lebron plays for the Cavs, you slob his knob, I got it I got it.

SteelersinCA
04-29-2009, 02:16 PM
You honestly think Lebron would have averaged 20 pts a game on the Lakers his rookie season don't you? That's REALLY funny. Homer shades on!!!

xfl2001fan
04-29-2009, 02:24 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1997.html
http://www.nba.com/mavericks/roster/2007/ That's last years Mavericks official website, G-F. Still funny?

G-F, isn't that what Lebron was his rookie season? Look, I get it, you're from Ohio, Lebron plays for the Cavs, you slob his knob, I got it I got it.

What does the 1997 season...or the 2007 Mavs season have anything to do with how he (Eddie Jones) was listed/played in 1995-1996? Subsequent seasons aren't the core of the argument....in fact they have no bearing whatsoever. But it's cute that you took the time to dredge that up.

SteelersinCA
04-29-2009, 02:36 PM
The point is he is a G/F. He was when Kobe came into the league, and he still was when he Jones left the league. 1996-1997 season was Kobe's first season genius. Hellooooooo....:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: You see when you click that link that has 1997 in it, it brings up the 1996-1997 season. What season would you like to talk about for Kobe's rookie season, 1954? 1943? 1982? That's why it's relevant. Keep slurping homer!!!

Anymore cute/funny/snide comments while I prove you wrong? Do you want to answer any of the questions or just deflect?

MACH1
04-29-2009, 02:43 PM
http://mediaoutrage.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/gold-medal-kobe1.jpg
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/25/sports/olympics/25bball.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

The USA men’s basketball team did it’s country very proud by defeating Spain in a 118-107 victory. Kobe Bryant was a key component of the win as he scored 13 of his 20points in the 4th quarter. Nothing surprising there, as Kobe is the best clutch player in the world since Michael Jordan retired. Congrats to the USA Men’s Team for bringing home the gold once again.

SteelersinCA
04-29-2009, 02:47 PM
See, that there is a problem, the NY Times. Is that even a reputable newspaper or just some pro-Kobe rag? If it's not the Cleveland Plain-Dealer, Akron Beacon Journal or the Columbus Dispatch, it's not really news. Oh I forgot Bucknuts or any other rah rah OSU periodical. Come on Mach1, you CAN do better!!!:rolleyes:

Now you gave them an excuse to bring up that that article was from 2008 and not answer my questions!! bad Bad Mach! :chuckle:

RoethlisBURGHer
04-29-2009, 03:11 PM
I am not reading through this entire damn thread, so I am just going to put my opinion out there. And yes, I am a Cavs fan.

I have never been a Kobe Bryant fan, before or since the scandal.

I have always felt the Kobe was a self-centered player. I have seen him take a bad shot instead of passing to a team mate with a higher percentage shot.

While I have seen LBJ pass to a team mate for a better shot when his only possible shot isn't a very good luck.

But they both are excellent players, both can take over and dominate a game when they need/want to.

xfl2001fan
04-29-2009, 03:25 PM
The point is he is a G/F. He was when Kobe came into the league, and he still was when he Jones left the league. 1996-1997 season was Kobe's first season genius. Hellooooooo....:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: You see when you click that link that has 1997 in it, it brings up the 1996-1997 season. What season would you like to talk about for Kobe's rookie season, 1954? 1943? 1982? That's why it's relevant. Keep slurping homer!!!

Anymore cute/funny/snide comments while I prove you wrong? Do you want to answer any of the questions or just deflect?

Ahh, I didn't bother clicking the link. Touche. You found one source that has him at G/F. Just because a guy plays guard or forward, doesn't mean that's where he starts. Lebron plays PF/SF/PG/SG...but why list him as such. At the end of the day, he's still a SF. Jones is a Shooting Guard first and foremost.

SteelersinCA
04-29-2009, 03:51 PM
Ahh, I didn't bother clicking the link. Touche. You found one source that has him at G/F. Just because a guy plays guard or forward, doesn't mean that's where he starts. Lebron plays PF/SF/PG/SG...but why list him as such. At the end of the day, he's still a SF. Jones is a Shooting Guard first and foremost.

Well, who would he start for on the Lakers 96-97 team? Shaq? Campbell? Van Exel? Scott? Jones? Judging by the way he was used his rookie season, G/F I assumed he would start for Jones. Then you have to ask yourself why would a rookie start for an All-Star? Especially since the rookie didn't make the All-Star team when he was on a miserable team. :noidea: There is simply no logical argument for Lebron starting on the Lakers team. By the way Kobe started around 11 games for the Lakers his rookie season, I'm sure Lebron would have got some starts too.

By the way, that was 2 sites that listed him as a G/F, one of them being an official NBA site.:hug:

xfl2001fan
04-29-2009, 04:23 PM
Well, who would he start for on the Lakers 96-97 team? Shaq? Campbell? Van Exel? Scott? Jones? Judging by the way he was used his rookie season, G/F I assumed he would start for Jones. Then you have to ask yourself why would a rookie start for an All-Star? Especially since the rookie didn't make the All-Star team when he was on a miserable team. :noidea: There is simply no logical argument for Lebron starting on the Lakers team. By the way Kobe started around 11 games for the Lakers his rookie season, I'm sure Lebron would have got some starts too.

By the way, that was 2 sites that listed him as a G/F, one of them being an official NBA site.:hug:

So wait, you're saying that a team wouldn't be able to move around it's roster to put it's best 5 on the floor? Jones was an All-Star Guard that year. Look at the All-Star Roster. Jones, Van Exel, James Campbell and Shaq would be the starting lineup.

Scott was on the last legs of his career and his main role on that Lakers squad was to be a player/coach to Bryant. He was averaging less than 20 minutes per game...and less than 7 minutes per game. I am more than confident that James as a rookie could match that production...even playing out of position.

Maybe it's just me, but 6.7 PPG, 1.5 RPG and 1.3 AST per game is not that hard to produce...even on that Lakers squad. James would easily have done that...and the Lakers would have been on their championship run much sooner. Not only that, because Lebron has always been more of a team player, the team would have stayed together longer and James would have had more rings.

SteelersinCA
04-29-2009, 04:41 PM
Don't get me wrong, but a 6'8" 240 lb guard that can't shoot from the perimeter?? Remember, James' outside shot was well below average his first few years. Putting James at guard his rookie season on that Lakers squad is just not smart.

xfl2001fan
04-29-2009, 06:21 PM
Don't get me wrong, but a 6'8" 240 lb guard that can't shoot from the perimeter?? Remember, James' outside shot was well below average his first few years. Putting James at guard his rookie season on that Lakers squad is just not smart.

Actually, my primary suggestion was to play James at SF. But even at Guard, he could still (with his shooting woes) replicate Byron Scotts production...and sell more tickets with his increased athleticism. Have James at SF and move Jones to Shooting Guard...you know, the position he primarily plays anyways.

Either way, James would have started and played more than 11 minutes a game.

lilyoder6
04-29-2009, 07:03 PM
I have played sports. Played through high school and am in military based intramural leagues throughout the year.

Obviously you have never played sports at a high level before, because you'd know you can't just turn it on like that. That's why guys that are recovering from an injury have to "knock the rust off". For that matter, players in preseason and the first couple games are still trying to do that. What about players in contract hold outs? Why can't they suddenly just come in and perform at a high level?

But you think a couple of 38+ year old men can "turn it on" after a minute or two.

When it comes to playing sports, you just proved how little you actually know. I'm done with you now. Bye bye.

well are u talking about sports or basketball...

look at bynum.. he didn't do bad after a 32 game break and a mcl tear
bynum had 13 points and six rebounds Friday against Portland, his second game back from a 32-game absence after Kobe Bryant crashed into his right knee. He had 16 points and seven rebounds Thursday against Denver.

i still beleive kobe has his torn muscle in one of his shooting hands.. beleive it
s the ring finger.. and he has been playing with it since the begin of the playoffs last yr

xfl2001fan
04-29-2009, 08:57 PM
well are u talking about sports or basketball...

look at bynum.. he didn't do bad after a 32 game break and a mcl tear
bynum had 13 points and six rebounds Friday against Portland, his second game back from a 32-game absence after Kobe Bryant crashed into his right knee. He had 16 points and seven rebounds Thursday against Denver.

i still beleive kobe has his torn muscle in one of his shooting hands.. beleive it
s the ring finger.. and he has been playing with it since the begin of the playoffs last yr

Basketball is a sport. Maybe not the way you play it in your little world, but to the rest of the Globe it's one of the most popular sports today. Not that it matters. Because the argument holds true regardless of which sport it is. You don't walk away from any/all sports for 5 years and come back ready to play. Kobe schooling those guys is a terrible comparison.

Now you're trying to draw the comparison between a guy who is young and (relatively) healthy, or a guy in his prime to a couple of 38+ who haven't played in 5+ years. They don't equate to the same thing.

Bynum hasn't played near as well since his injury as he did prior to. Regardless, it's a HUGE difference in scenarios.

Kobe is in his prime and never took the summer off, he's been in "game shape" since several summers ago. Again, HUGE Difference.

MACH1
04-29-2009, 09:51 PM
i still beleive kobe has his torn muscle in one of his shooting hands.. beleive its the ring finger.. and he has been playing with it since the begin of the playoffs last yr

Its a torn tendon in his shooting hand.

Steel Head
04-29-2009, 11:31 PM
I've been a big fan of Kobe Bryant and have preferred him over Lebron untill a few weeks ago. Now there is no doubt in my mind that Lebron is the better player

How he is almost averaging a triple double is legendary stuff. He will win several championships and maybe top Jordan's career

lilyoder6
04-30-2009, 01:15 AM
Basketball is a sport. Maybe not the way you play it in your little world, but to the rest of the Globe it's one of the most popular sports today. Not that it matters. Because the argument holds true regardless of which sport it is. You don't walk away from any/all sports for 5 years and come back ready to play. Kobe schooling those guys is a terrible comparison.

Now you're trying to draw the comparison between a guy who is young and (relatively) healthy, or a guy in his prime to a couple of 38+ who haven't played in 5+ years. They don't equate to the same thing.

Bynum hasn't played near as well since his injury as he did prior to. Regardless, it's a HUGE difference in scenarios.

Kobe is in his prime and never took the summer off, he's been in "game shape" since several summers ago. Again, HUGE Difference.


ok... ur right.. evry athlete who is out of the game is a bum.. they can't even beat a lil child.. ur right

lilyoder6
04-30-2009, 01:20 AM
anyway.. lets get back 2 topic....

again... how do u compare careers???
going by acolades? stats??? what they acclomplished after so long??

kobe in his 1st 5yrs is a whole eff lot better than lebron and his 1st 5 yrs.. look at the acolades and the championships... and i don't care if kobe had shaq.. they were still in the harder conference... and if anything.. i would say the triangle offense was more of the main factor than shaq was

xfl2001fan
04-30-2009, 08:19 AM
ok... ur right.. evry athlete who is out of the game is a bum.. they can't even beat a lil child.. ur right

I didn't say they were bums. I have no doubt that those guys could beat me...but...to ask them to beat an NBA prospect...that's something else. If Kobe hadn't schooled them, I doubt LA trades for him.

anyway.. lets get back 2 topic....

again... how do u compare careers???
going by acolades? stats??? what they acclomplished after so long??

kobe in his 1st 5yrs is a whole eff lot better than lebron and his 1st 5 yrs.. look at the acolades and the championships... and i don't care if kobe had shaq.. they were still in the harder conference... and if anything.. i would say the triangle offense was more of the main factor than shaq was

It's clear that you can't get past the fact that Kobe has had better teams. Kobe doesn't take the Cavs to the championship by himself...which is essentially what Lebron did 2 years ago.

If you're saying it's the Triangle offense, then you're telling me it's more the system than the player...which tells me Kobe will never win without the Triangle offense. It also says that Kobe's stats are a direct product of a good player in a great system.

I don't believe either is the case. Kobe is a great player. The Triangle is a good system...but it requires great players to work. Not a great player, great players. First Kobe had Shaq...and the Lakers were contenders once Kobe learned to play the NBA game. Now, he's got Gasol/Bynum/Odom...and a bunch of really good role players.

revefsreleets
04-30-2009, 09:21 AM
Considering Eddie Jones was the starting forward for the Lakers in 1996 and he made the all-star team in 96-97, 97-98 and 99-00, that is exactly what I am suggesting. You're going to start a rookie over an All-star? I think not.

And before you compare stats, if Lebron played with someone like Shaq now, he would NOT be averaging 25-30pts a game. The points would be distributed more evenly between the two. Lebron averaged 20.9 pts his rookie season on a god awful Cavs team, doubtful he averages 20.9 on the Lakers with Shaq. Eddie Jones averaged 17.2 and made the All-star team, Lebron isn't starting.

Crack smoker.

LeBron played PG more than half his rokkie year because they had no one else to do it...in fact, he played 3 positions that year.

LeBron as a rook >>>>>>>>>Eddie Jones.

You guys are nuts...hate is hate, but stupidity is another matter altogether.

Please carry on without me...I feel IQ points being sucked out of my head in this thread...

lilyoder6
04-30-2009, 10:03 AM
[QUOTE=xfl2001fan;599555]Kobe doesn't take the Cavs to the championship by himself...which is essentially what Lebron did 2 years ago.

If you're saying it's the Triangle offense, then you're telling me it's more the system than the player...which tells me Kobe will never win without the Triangle offense. It also says that Kobe's stats are a direct product of a good player in a great system.

QUOTE]

no.. i'm just saying that the system is a great fit for him.. just like how the wildcat was created to give a playmaker the ball to start off with.. it just makes some great.. greater...


and we are never going to know if kobe could of taken the cavs to the championship... i would lean more towards yes just b/c the east is, was not that good 2 yrs ago... aside from the pistons...

it's a lot harder to compare the 2 since they did play in different yrs of the game...
it is what it is..

either way.. when i enter a 3-3 tourny i take both and i just stand and watch :sofunny:

SteelersinCA
04-30-2009, 11:18 AM
Crack smoker.

LeBron played PG more than half his rokkie year because they had no one else to do it...in fact, he played 3 positions that year.

LeBron as a rook >>>>>>>>>Eddie Jones.

You guys are nuts...hate is hate, but stupidity is another matter altogether.

Please carry on without me...I feel IQ points being sucked out of my head in this thread...

Yes, IQ is clearly a concern for you. (I only point out spelling and grammar when someone insults another poster, otherwise it's just a message board.) You gotta work on that Rev.

LeBron as a rook >>>>>>>>>Eddie Jones. - I guess that's why Lebron made the All Star team that year and Jones didn't, oh wait.....:noidea:

"hate is hate, but stupidity is another matter altogether." and ignorance is bliss!!! Keep the homer shades on, Rev! Yes, go back to your OSU threads, DEFINITELY no crack over there, just Kool-aid. :rofl:

SteelersinCA
04-30-2009, 11:22 AM
XFL at least you can engage in intelligent conversation and make coherent arguments. You gotta work on your boy. Let him know Lebron wouldn't have started over Van Exel or Jones. He's clearly drunk on O-H.

xfl2001fan
04-30-2009, 11:30 AM
no.. i'm just saying that the system is a great fit for him.. just like how the wildcat was created to give a playmaker the ball to start off with.. it just makes some great.. greater...


and we are never going to know if kobe could of taken the cavs to the championship... i would lean more towards yes just b/c the east is, was not that good 2 yrs ago... aside from the pistons...

it's a lot harder to compare the 2 since they did play in different yrs of the game...
it is what it is..

either way.. when i enter a 3-3 tourny i take both and i just stand and watch :sofunny:

Great players can find a way to work in nearly any system...the system is more for the supporting cast than it is for the star.

The only way Kobe takes the Cavs to the Finals two years ago is to pull an AI. Even then, I'm not so sure that it would have happened. For instance, who would his SF been? Yeah, 3-3 tourney, put em on the same team with either a Dwight Howard or a Carmelo Anthony (even better!!!) and have a good time.

Steel_12
04-30-2009, 08:50 PM
Crack smoker.

LeBron played PG more than half his rokkie year because they had no one else to do it...in fact, he played 3 positions that year.

LeBron as a rook >>>>>>>>>Eddie Jones.

You guys are nuts...hate is hate, but stupidity is another matter altogether.

Please carry on without me...I feel IQ points being sucked out of my head in this thread...

lol this dude here...LeBron didn't play PG in his rookie year. Jeff McInnis did and played well avg. 12 points and 6 dimes a game. LMAO people just spout off at the mouth without know what they're talking about.

LeBron as a rookie didn't have any superstars on his team. Eddie Jones had Van Exel and Shaq!!! And still avg. 17/game...and you feel like IQ points are being sucked out of your head? WOW...we will gladly carry on without you!

Steel_12
04-30-2009, 08:54 PM
I didn't say they were bums. I have no doubt that those guys could beat me...but...to ask them to beat an NBA prospect...that's something else. If Kobe hadn't schooled them, I doubt LA trades for him.



It's clear that you can't get past the fact that Kobe has had better teams. Kobe doesn't take the Cavs to the championship by himself...which is essentially what Lebron did 2 years ago.

If you're saying it's the Triangle offense, then you're telling me it's more the system than the player...which tells me Kobe will never win without the Triangle offense. It also says that Kobe's stats are a direct product of a good player in a great system.

I don't believe either is the case. Kobe is a great player. The Triangle is a good system...but it requires great players to work. Not a great player, great players. First Kobe had Shaq...and the Lakers were contenders once Kobe learned to play the NBA game. Now, he's got Gasol/Bynum/Odom...and a bunch of really good role players.

Kobe could EASILY take ANY Eastern Conference team to the Championship...Do you realize how much competitive it is in the Western Conference?

Kobe could score in any system...you know that!

SteelersinCA
04-30-2009, 11:06 PM
lol this dude here...LeBron didn't play PG in his rookie year. Jeff McInnis did and played well avg. 12 points and 6 dimes a game. LMAO people just spout off at the mouth without know what they're talking about.

LeBron as a rookie didn't have any superstars on his team. Eddie Jones had Van Exel and Shaq!!! And still avg. 17/game...and you feel like IQ points are being sucked out of your head? WOW...we will gladly carry on without you!

Ironic isn't it, just blind ignorant homerism from them boys.

xfl2001fan
04-30-2009, 11:19 PM
lol this dude here...LeBron didn't play PG in his rookie year. Jeff McInnis did and played well avg. 12 points and 6 dimes a game. LMAO people just spout off at the mouth without know what they're talking about.

LeBron as a rookie didn't have any superstars on his team. Eddie Jones had Van Exel and Shaq!!! And still avg. 17/game...and you feel like IQ points are being sucked out of your head? WOW...we will gladly carry on without you!

I'm not so sure I'd classify Van Exel as a Superstar. Being an excellent 3-point shooter just means he's a good role player...not a superstar. Did he even (once) participate in an All-Star game? Even one...as an alternate? I seriously don't know. Maybe it's just me, but a "Superstar" should at least be an all-star.

As for LBJ, he played some at the point, but was still (primarily) a SF. In fact, during his rookie year (and beyond), a lot of people were calling him a Point Forward. Unfortunately, I don't have any links/clips to support that, as I was watching those games on the TV. Just something that I remember.

SteelersinCA
04-30-2009, 11:25 PM
I'm not so sure I'd classify Van Exel as a Superstar. Being an excellent 3-point shooter just means he's a good role player...not a superstar. Did he even (once) participate in an All-Star game? Even one...as an alternate? I seriously don't know. Maybe it's just me, but a "Superstar" should at least be an all-star.

As for LBJ, he played some at the point, but was still (primarily) a SF. In fact, during his rookie year (and beyond), a lot of people were calling him a Point Forward. Unfortunately, I don't have any links/clips to support that, as I was watching those games on the TV. Just something that I remember.

I remember that too which is why I said G/F and chose Jones, another G/F to compare him to during his rookie year. You might want to re-educate your boy seems he's a bit off on the whole PG thing. You don't have to be a superstar to be a solid starter. FYI, Shaq didn't make the all star team Kobe's rookie year either.

xfl2001fan
04-30-2009, 11:41 PM
I remember that too which is why I said G/F and chose Jones, another G/F to compare him to during his rookie year. You might want to re-educate your boy seems he's a bit off on the whole PG thing. You don't have to be a superstar to be a solid starter. FYI, Shaq didn't make the all star team Kobe's rookie year either.

Shaq was already an all-star though. I can't, for the life of me, think of 2 more dominating centers in the West though. I would guess David Robinson was an All-Star...and who the other might be...escapes me.

As for Revs, he's capable of taking care of himself when he wants to. He used arguments that I wasn't going to use...but I saw flaws in verbage.

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 12:32 AM
Shaq was already an all-star though. I can't, for the life of me, think of 2 more dominating centers in the West though. I would guess David Robinson was an All-Star...and who the other might be...escapes me.

As for Revs, he's capable of taking care of himself when he wants to. He used arguments that I wasn't going to use...but I saw flaws in verbage.

You're going to laugh, makes you wonder if our All Star arguments really hold any weight huh? :laughing:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1997.html

Hakeem the Dream and Detlaf Schrempf hahahahha

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 12:42 AM
You're going to laugh, makes you wonder if our All Star arguments really hold any weight huh? :laughing:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1997.html

Hakeem the Dream and Detlaf Schrempf hahahahha

Hakeem, I can see. That was his hey day...and I honestly forgot he was in the West. But Schrempf? Seriously? That's just sick.

Forget it all, Lebron and Kobe are just average players.

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 12:48 AM
Hakeem, I can see. That was his hey day...and I honestly forgot he was in the West. But Schrempf? Seriously? That's just sick.

Forget it all, Lebron and Kobe are just average players.

I told you you would laugh.

revefsreleets
05-01-2009, 09:15 AM
Grammar and spelling smack?

I see why, though...you guys can't get your facts straight, so attack where you can.

LBJ starts on any NBA team his rook year. Period. He was the best player in the draft that year...he starts on every team. As for him NOT playing PG, I watched him play. He played PG as a rook. It wasn't the only position he played, but he played PG. He also played SG, and both forward positions.

The hillarious thing about quoting players as "All-Stars" is that it treats All-Star voting as if it's some flawless measure of talent, and has nothing to do with a teams success or popularity...but, again, whatever...

Spelling smack...still chuckling about that one...

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 11:08 AM
Grammar and spelling smack?

I see why, though...you guys can't get your facts straight, so attack where you can.

LBJ starts on any NBA team his rook year. Period. He was the best player in the draft that year...he starts on every team. As for him NOT playing PG, I watched him play. He played PG as a rook. It wasn't the only position he played, but he played PG. He also played SG, and both forward positions.

The hillarious thing about quoting players as "All-Stars" is that it treats All-Star voting as if it's some flawless measure of talent, and has nothing to do with a teams success or popularity...but, again, whatever...

Spelling smack...still chuckling about that one...

First of all, the spelling and grammar smack was explained. It's only funny when you are insulting someone else. Keep laughing though, I'm still laughing about your IQ being sucked and spelling errors.

Keep em coming!

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 12:08 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4118016

Just a fun tidbit.

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 12:35 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4118016

Just a fun tidbit.

He's been around longer...if he suffered a career ending injury today, he'd still likely be a 1st in hall of famer. `

revefsreleets
05-01-2009, 12:35 PM
I write ad copy for a living...I'm sure that if I took arguing with you 1/100th as seriously as I did my job, and spent even a little time looking up stuff and editing:

A) These "arguments" would be over before they even started
B) I'd copy edit my text and eliminate spelling errors.

But you simply aren't worth that much effort...so you get my "C" game...but keep on running the spelling smack. You gotta play the few cards you've been dealt, and I realize that.

As for the Kobe jersey article, that's (not really) interesting. What's next, referencing the "Viewers Choice" awards? Miley Cyrus' faves list from her website? What the women on "The View" have to say?

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 02:19 PM
I write ad copy for a living...I'm sure that if I took arguing with you 1/100th as seriously as I did my job, and spent even a little time looking up stuff and editing:

A) These "arguments" would be over before they even started
B) I'd copy edit my text and eliminate spelling errors.

But you simply aren't worth that much effort...so you get my "C" game...but keep on running the spelling smack. You gotta play the few cards you've been dealt, and I realize that.

As for the Kobe jersey article, that's (not really) interesting. What's next, referencing the "Viewers Choice" awards? Miley Cyrus' faves list from her website? What the women on "The View" have to say?

Yeah, your arguments are far superior...:coffee:

I don't care what you do for a living or what game I get from you, your posts are about as ignorant as they come. You don't impress me at all. Keep telling yourself how great you are and how you don't care. Stop posting if you don't care. Everyone else can have a reasonable discussion until you come along.

I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt when I criticized OSU and your precious Buckeyes football team, get over yourself, pal. I've tried to be reasonable with you, gave you the heads up on the guy calling you a racist, but it's obvious you are just a bitter man. I feel for you, you just want to disagree for the sake of argument. God have mercy on your family if you are like that off a message board.

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 02:21 PM
He's been around longer...if he suffered a career ending injury today, he'd still likely be a 1st in hall of famer. `

It has no bearing on their skill, it was just interesting because someone advanced the argument that Lebron was more famous worldwide. A reasonable argument could be made that since he's been around longer, people have had more of an opportunity to buy his jersey and the sales should not still be high. It was meant to be an innocent tidbit.

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 02:35 PM
It has no bearing on their skill, it was just interesting because someone advanced the argument that Lebron was more famous worldwide. A reasonable argument could be made that since he's been around longer, people have had more of an opportunity to buy his jersey and the sales should not still be high. It was meant to be an innocent tidbit.

Jersey sales have no bearing on skill...although...you won't see nearly as many Odom Jerseys floating around outside of his hometown and/or LA.

The fact that MJ was around for years and played at a high level for that long made more people desire his Jersey...because he was the penultimate athlete. Not only good, but the best for years on end. Lebrons Jersey Sales will pass Kobe soon enough. And then he'll be at the top for just as long...until the next generation of superstar arrives.

There was once a fear that there would never be a Bird/Johnson/Jordan type setup...but we have the makings of that now.

If you look at Kobe as an "old-timer" you've still got Melo, Wade, Howard, James and company...and a few surprises like Rondo and Rose that could find themselves mentioned near the top.

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 02:45 PM
I don't think Melo, Wade and Howard hold a candle to Kobe And Lebron.

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 03:35 PM
I don't think Melo, Wade and Howard hold a candle to Kobe And Lebron.

If Wade could stay healthy for a few years, he has the potential. Howard and Melo don't seem to have their heads on straight. Athletically speaking though...they are quite a force.

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 03:51 PM
Maybe, but the problem with Melo is he will always be in lebrons shadow, unless melo wins titles and lebron doesn't. I'm assuming Lebron will once he leaves the mistake by the Lake.:flap:

revefsreleets
05-01-2009, 04:23 PM
Touched a nerve, I see...here you are, straining and toiling to post the best that you can, and then you find out I'm barely even paying attention to ya...boo hoo for you...

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 06:03 PM
Barely paying attention, doing anything you can to disagree with everything I post and insult me in any childish way you can, whatever helps you sleep at night! Tell us another story please Rev.

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 07:12 PM
Maybe, but the problem with Melo is he will always be in lebrons shadow, unless melo wins titles and lebron doesn't. I'm assuming Lebron will once he leaves the mistake by the Lake.:flap:

Nah, what I can see happening is Gilbert opening his wallet to bring in another superstar in 2010 to keep Lebron...whether that's a Chris Bosh, D-Wade or whomever. For that matter, isn't Brad Miller available this coming season? Hmmm.

If there's one thing I'm confident in, Gilbert doesn't care about the luxury tax...he just wants to keep Lebron Happy and Win (both of which, go hand in hand.)

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 07:19 PM
You think? Does he have enough money to outbid someone else though? It's not like Lebron needs that much more help, which makes you wonder why Gilbert hasn't got him any help as of yet. Lebron is going to smash the highest salary, the question is who wants to pay it. I'm not sure the Cavs can, but I have no real clue about their finances.

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 07:24 PM
You think? Does he have enough money to outbid someone else though? It's not like Lebron needs that much more help, which makes you wonder why Gilbert hasn't got him any help as of yet. Lebron is going to smash the highest salary, the question is who wants to pay it. I'm not sure the Cavs can, but I have no real clue about their finances.

Gilbert is loaded. He's been in the luxury tax for several years and doesn't care one iota. He'll pay Lebron's max contract...and pay another guy...while relying on Ferry to find other Gems like Varejao and Gibson to bring into the fold.

This coupled with signings like Joe Smith will be huge. This coming season, Ben Wallace is a FA...and I suspect he'll sign significantly cheaper to stay with the Cavs than he will to play anywhere else. I doubt anyone else is dumb enough to give him the Chicago treatment of a few years ago...and if he can find that person...we'll let him walk. He's a defensive role player and nothing more.

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 07:48 PM
I thought I had heard that he won't be able to offer the money a team like the Knicks could, any truth to that?

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 09:12 PM
I thought I had heard that he won't be able to offer the money a team like the Knicks could, any truth to that?

Not that I've seen or heard. Everybody knows that if Lebron leaves town, the Cavs will quit selling tickets...plain and simple. The economics of having him (and paying the luxury tax) far outweigh what would be saved by him going elsewhere.

In fact, by the nature of NBA contracts, no team can offer more than the Cavs can...and with the economy struggling...it will get even harder for a team like the Knicks to woo him away. Signing him is one thing...but having a team that's ready for him is something else. The Cavs offer Lebron great security in the max contract he'll be able to sign...team chemistry and an owner who is willing to pay extra dollars to bring in the necessary talent to make the Cavs a serious contender.

That's why Gilbert didn't blink at signing/trading for guys like Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall and Damon Jones. It's also why, when Danny was able to pawn them off on other teams, Gilbert was OK with bringing in Ben Wallace' huge contract.

Now you've got great role players like Joe Smith coming in at Vet Minimum...plus Mo Williams/Delonte West (a solid guard combo) to go with some of the other gems on our team (Gibson, Wild Thing and the ever steady Z). I wouldn't be completely surprised if Lebron signs on after this season to extend his contract...and then watch the Cavs make a play at their "Pippen" for King James.

Steel_12
05-02-2009, 06:45 PM
I know Joe Dumars is going to make a run at him. That's why he traded Chauncey for A.I. Detroit is going to have plenty of cap space.

SteelersinCA
05-02-2009, 06:55 PM
I can't see Lebron going to Detroit. That's the one place that may be below even Cleveland, OH.

xfl2001fan
05-02-2009, 08:48 PM
I know Joe Dumars is going to make a run at him. That's why he traded Chauncey for A.I. Detroit is going to have plenty of cap space.

BWAHAHAHA That's too funny. It's too bad that he'll never go there. That's an even crappier market than Cleveland. One of the main reasons the whole James to NY was such a big deal was because of the larger market. Of course, Lebron has to know that wherever he goes, that's where the media/market is. He could stay in Cleveland be just fine.

Detroit! That's just too funny. (Yeah, I know you didn't say he was going there...but the idea of Dumars thinking he has a shot at Lebron is redonkulous!)

Steel_12
05-02-2009, 09:11 PM
BWAHAHAHA That's too funny. It's too bad that he'll never go there. That's an even crappier market than Cleveland. One of the main reasons the whole James to NY was such a big deal was because of the larger market. Of course, Lebron has to know that wherever he goes, that's where the media/market is. He could stay in Cleveland be just fine.

Detroit! That's just too funny. (Yeah, I know you didn't say he was going there...but the idea of Dumars thinking he has a shot at Lebron is redonkulous!)

I think LeBron's main goal is to win a title. Detroit might not be media/market friendly; but if they have the right pieces I wouldn't be too sure about him not going there. So many free agents are going to be available next year that you can't say for certain who will/won't do what.

xfl2001fan
05-02-2009, 10:14 PM
I don't Lebron going there because where would they move T. Prince to? If you move him to guard, what do you do with Hamilton/Stuckey? I don't see Lebron playing PF for them.

I think Detroit (while they would love to get LBJ) is making a bigger push for Chris Bosh to replace Sheed. Bosh, Prince, Hamilton is quite the core...toss in an improving Stuckey and you've got a very solid team.

Steel_12
05-02-2009, 10:40 PM
I don't Lebron going there because where would they move T. Prince to? If you move him to guard, what do you do with Hamilton/Stuckey? I don't see Lebron playing PF for them.

I think Detroit (while they would love to get LBJ) is making a bigger push for Chris Bosh to replace Sheed. Bosh, Prince, Hamilton is quite the core...toss in an improving Stuckey and you've got a very solid team.

It doesn't matter what position LeBron plays...they would find a way to put them on the floor together. I don't know if Stuckey is the PG of the future for them. Bynum put up nice numbers as the PG too. Rip will still be there and still play the 2. McDyess had a solid year and I don't see Bosh putting up that much better numbers with Prince and Rip plus another good player they plan on getting in the lineup.

IDK...They have a lot of money to get 2-3 good players (including LeBron) so I wouldn't rule it out.

xfl2001fan
05-03-2009, 08:47 AM
It doesn't matter what position LeBron plays...they would find a way to put them on the floor together. I don't know if Stuckey is the PG of the future for them. Bynum put up nice numbers as the PG too. Rip will still be there and still play the 2. McDyess had a solid year and I don't see Bosh putting up that much better numbers with Prince and Rip plus another good player they plan on getting in the lineup.

IDK...They have a lot of money to get 2-3 good players (including LeBron) so I wouldn't rule it out.

Look at what the Cavs can offer. More money. Plus, they have Wally's/Wallace exorbitant contracts coming off the books, freeing up more money to be placed in another player.

We'll likely be able to sign Joe Smith again...and Z will likely get extended as well. I don't know if Varejao wants to say...because he and his agent have issues with Danny Ferry, but the chemistry of the team is phenomenal...and that may trump everything.

I can see the Cavs making a bid for David Lee (if Andy leaves) to try and replace the Big...and Lee is a better shooter, though not quite as intense a player. If not Lee, they could take a shot at Channing Frye. They might even make an offer at Glen Davis...if only to see how much of Boston's money that they can tie up.

Of course, Lamar Odom is an unrestricted Free Agent this season...and (again, if Andy leaves) we may find ourselves in a position to make a play for him. He'll likely see more minutes with the Cavs than with the Lakers...and with the team intact...he'll have just as good a shot at a ring as anyone.

Worst case scenario, we sign Zaza Pachulia...and try to find a big man in the draft.

Then again, Kobe could take his ETO option and bolt from LA. While I doubt he'd go to Cleveland, there's nothing saying he wouldn't try to sign on with the Knicks.

How's that for a scenario?

SteelersinCA
05-03-2009, 03:08 PM
Kobe will only leave LA if he feels he has a better chance at a ring elsewhere. All he cares about really. While I think he's a great player, I have no illusion that he wants anything other than money or titles. Same with Lebron though. If they can keep the Lakers intact and Bynum healthy, they are the best shot at a title for Kobe.

xfl2001fan
05-03-2009, 05:12 PM
I doubt that Kobe goes anywhere...but it's still a story that no one is talking about.

That being said, I have to correct myself on a couple of issues. Wallace is not a FA at the end of this year, that's next year...so he's potential trade bait to a "contender" who wants to ramp up their D for a year. Wally, Varejao, Snow (retired) and Lorenzen Wright are all coming off the books...as well as (of course) Joe Smith...but even with all that, we're still 10M over the salary cap.

I can see Smith coming back...and potentially a trade of Wallace to bring in a different big...but I don't know what Ferry is going to do to keep us under the cap and still field a team as strong as this one is.

Ouch for next season.

revefsreleets
05-04-2009, 09:02 AM
Gilbert will either sign Lebron or sell the team. The Cavs minus LBJ will be a zero draw in Cleveland...for the fans it will be like losing your virginity to Briana Banks then being stuck with Rosie O'Donnell thereafter...it's not even worth it.

SteelersinCA
05-04-2009, 10:04 AM
I doubt that Kobe goes anywhere...but it's still a story that no one is talking about.

That being said, I have to correct myself on a couple of issues. Wallace is not a FA at the end of this year, that's next year...so he's potential trade bait to a "contender" who wants to ramp up their D for a year. Wally, Varejao, Snow (retired) and Lorenzen Wright are all coming off the books...as well as (of course) Joe Smith...but even with all that, we're still 10M over the salary cap.

I can see Smith coming back...and potentially a trade of Wallace to bring in a different big...but I don't know what Ferry is going to do to keep us under the cap and still field a team as strong as this one is.

Ouch for next season.

Kind of an aside, you seem to like Varejao? I can't stand that guy, I think he is a hack and an on the court thug. I'm not saying he doesn't have value to the Cavs, I just hate the way he plays.

xfl2001fan
05-04-2009, 10:07 AM
Kind of an aside, you seem to like Varejao? I can't stand that guy, I think he is a hack and an on the court thug. I'm not saying he doesn't have value to the Cavs, I just hate the way he plays.

He's high energy, his offense has steadily improved and he knows how to position himself to take a charge. He has his good qualities.

That being said, it's more I fear what we look like without him than how good we are with him. There are certainly better PF/C out there...and at the price he might be asking for, we might be able to get better talent (or at least comparable) at similar/better prices.

Z is old. Wallace is old. Smith is old. Those are our Bigs right now. JJ Hickson has shown glimpses of promise...as has Darnell Jackson. But they're not exactly tall Bigs...certainly not the 7 footers that exist in LA. Andy is 6'11...and those extra couple of inches can mean a lot.

revefsreleets
05-04-2009, 10:16 AM
He's high energy, his offense has steadily improved and he knows how to position himself to take a charge. He has his good qualities.

That being said, it's more I fear what we look like without him than how good we are with him. There are certainly better PF/C out there...and at the price he might be asking for, we might be able to get better talent (or at least comparable) at similar/better prices.

Z is old. Wallace is old. Smith is old. Those are our Bigs right now. JJ Hickson has shown glimpses of promise...as has Darnell Jackson. But they're not exactly tall Bigs...certainly not the 7 footers that exist in LA. Andy is 6'11...and those extra couple of inches can mean a lot.

Hickson is supposed to be in the mold of Charles Barkley (minus the gambling addiction and multiple DUI's I hope)...

SteelersinCA
05-04-2009, 10:17 AM
I think you could lose everyone except LBJ and be the same team. He carries that team regardless. It would be fun to see what he could do with help though.

revefsreleets
05-04-2009, 11:10 AM
Mo Williams averages 18 a game, 4.1 assists, is a 91% FT shooter and shoots .436 from behind the stripe. He's hardly a chump...

xfl2001fan
05-04-2009, 11:53 AM
Offensively, LBJ makes everyone better...but defense is where our niche is...and LBJ can't do that by himself.

That being said, ESPN has stated that tonight, King James will be awarded his MVP trophy.

revefsreleets
05-04-2009, 12:18 PM
Saw an article in the paper yesterday where they were discussing how good James has become on defense. The statement that he's the best off the ball defender in the league was mentioned, along with the fact that come the 4th quarter, he's usually saddled with the responsibility of guarding the opponents best scorer.

Yup, the MVP is his.

lilyoder6
05-04-2009, 12:38 PM
i don't know what all has been said this past weekend.. i have been working like a mexican.. lol...

but i saw that lebron got mvp, which he should, he is the mvp to his team..

revefsreleets
05-04-2009, 12:53 PM
i don't know what all has been said this past weekend.. i have been working like a mexican.. lol...

but i saw that lebron got mvp, which he should, he is the mvp for his team..

By implication, you are stating that LBJ is not the league MVP, he's only the MVP of his team, which happens to be the best team in the league this year.

However, the MVP IS for the most valuable player in the league, not just the team. I'm sure others will try to mitigate or water down his honor, but it is what it is: He is the most valuable player in the NBA this year.

Also found this from AP:

James is the first Cavaliers player to win the award. He averaged 28.4 points, 7.6 rebounds and 7.2 assists this season, his sixth as a pro. He also finished second in voting for defensive player of the year, making him perhaps the league's most dominant two-way player since Michael Jordan.

xfl2001fan
05-04-2009, 01:03 PM
James is the first Cavaliers player to win the award. He averaged 28.4 points, 7.6 rebounds and 7.2 assists this season, his sixth as a pro. He also finished second in voting for defensive player of the year, making him perhaps the league's most dominant two-way player since Michael Jordan.

Wait, you don't mean other than Kobe...it was suggested he's the best since MJ period. Hmmm :tap:

SteelersinCA
05-04-2009, 01:12 PM
Wait, you don't mean other than Kobe...it was suggested he's the best since MJ period. Hmmm :tap:

I think the operative language would be "perhaps." I don't think there is any rational person that would disagree it is between Kobe and Lebron. Perhaps implies that it's a possibility. It definitely is a possibility he or Kobe is the best since MJ. I said many posts ago, we are simply splitting hairs in this thread.

xfl2001fan
05-04-2009, 01:48 PM
I think the operative language would be "perhaps." I don't think there is any rational person that would disagree it is between Kobe and Lebron. Perhaps implies that it's a possibility. It definitely is a possibility he or Kobe is the best since MJ. I said many posts ago, we are simply splitting hairs in this thread.

Ahh, but I'm the OP and I want to have final say. :flap:

revefsreleets
05-04-2009, 01:53 PM
I just want to make sure he gets his due for being the MVP. It doesn't mean one thing when Kobe gets it and another when LBJ gets it, it is the league MVP for both, an equal reward and honor.

SteelersinCA
05-04-2009, 01:54 PM
He should be the MVP this year. It wasn't a surprise.

lilyoder6
05-04-2009, 06:50 PM
By implication, you are stating that LBJ is not the league MVP, he's only the MVP of his team, which happens to be the best team in the league this year.

However, the MVP IS for the most valuable player in the league, not just the team. I'm sure others will try to mitigate or water down his honor, but it is what it is: He is the most valuable player in the NBA this year.
[/COLOR].

by implication i just said that i expected him to win and he is the mvp to his team...
i'm not trying to water down anything...

Steel_12
05-04-2009, 07:20 PM
Congrats to LeBron, he deserved it this year. Hopefully, he won't get shafted like Kobe has been in the past as far as winning MVPs. But he's more likeable than Kobe so I'm guessing that won't be a problem.

xfl2001fan
05-04-2009, 07:43 PM
Congrats to LeBron, he deserved it this year. Hopefully, he won't get shafted like Kobe has been in the past as far as winning MVPs. But he's more likeable than Kobe so I'm guessing that won't be a problem.

The problem with getting Kobe an MVP is the thing that got him the rings are what kept him from being an MVP. Shaq.

Then there was the whole cheating scandal.

Two years ago, he deserved it more than anyone else. Last year I thought it should have belonged to CP3. A case could certainly be made for Wade this season...but Wade was his team...whereas Lebron elevates the play of his teammates (on top of carrying the team.)

Still, I'm glad he got his finally.

revefsreleets
05-05-2009, 09:06 AM
It was a landslide, too...like 109 of 121 first place votes.

Props to LBJ for taking it back to St. V's and honoring his mom, his HS, his city and his team. It was very classy...

xfl2001fan
05-05-2009, 11:13 PM
Damn the reigning MVP looked good out there today.

revefsreleets
05-06-2009, 11:18 AM
Still think they'll only lose 2-3 games in the East, maybe 4-5 total. They'll probably sweep the Hawks.

tony hipchest
05-12-2009, 08:28 PM
add chris "raw dog" russo and nfl networks solomon wilcots to those coming around to realize labron is the best.

solomon opened the show today (on serious) asking for a football reprieve so he could wax poetic about labron and how he treats and respects his teammates. he summed it up quite nicely...

labron knows he cant win it all by himself. kobe thinks he can (which we all know he cant).

THAT is what makes labron ultimately the better player imo.

lilyoder6
05-13-2009, 01:22 AM
add chris "raw dog" russo and nfl networks solomon wilcots to those coming around to realize labron is the best.

solomon opened the show today (on serious) asking for a football reprieve so he could wax poetic about labron and how he treats and respects his teammates. he summed it up quite nicely...

labron knows he cant win it all by himself. kobe thinks he can (which we all know he cant).

THAT is what makes labron ultimately the better player imo.


right.............

u keep on thinking that.. b/c we all know kobe has said he can win it by himself...
i mean a man who alrdy has won it 3 times....

and u don't think kobe treats or respects his team-mates??? b/c i see them joking around all the time when they are on the bench

tony hipchest
05-13-2009, 02:04 AM
well kobe pushed phil and shaq out the door and hasnt won jack squat since (luckilly for kobe, phil decided to return)

as far as him and his sidekicks yukking it up on the bench... i still see lebron and his teammates kicking ass on the court, and saving the laughs for later.

lets be real about the kobe hype... if he were as good as advertized, he would already be sitting on championship #6 (and looking for another).

while i doubt labron gets six, i see him reaching that pennacle, before kobe reaches 3 more. :noidea:

lilyoder6
05-13-2009, 11:16 AM
well kobe pushed phil and shaq out the door and hasnt won jack squat since (luckilly for kobe, phil decided to return)

as far as him and his sidekicks yukking it up on the bench... i still see lebron and his teammates kicking ass on the court, and saving the laughs for later.

lets be real about the kobe hype... if he were as good as advertized, he would already be sitting on championship #6 (and looking for another).

while i doubt labron gets six, i see him reaching that pennacle, before kobe reaches 3 more. :noidea:

well if u would read reports.. it was phil who started the thing between kobe and shaq.. and it was more of phil pushing shaq out than kobe... but i agree that kobe did push phil out...

and lets be real... u saying about kobe and his championships and being as good as advertized.. then why doesn't lebron have a single nba championship yet?? :noidea: he being advertized as one of the best.. but he got no trophies either...


and no shit u can see lebron getting six b4 kobe gets 3 more.. b/c lebron is younger and has more time to do it.. i mean kobe is old is nba yrs ffs.

xfl2001fan
05-13-2009, 09:49 PM
well if u would read reports.. it was phil who started the thing between kobe and shaq.. and it was more of phil pushing shaq out than kobe... but i agree that kobe did push phil out...
Either way, he's a pompous ass who believes he's bigger and better than he is. Even when Lebron got the MVP trophy, he was talking about his teammates, his coaching staff and his fans. He makes the game bigger...because he knows he's not bigger than the game.

and lets be real... u saying about kobe and his championships and being as good as advertized.. then why doesn't lebron have a single nba championship yet?? :noidea: he being advertized as one of the best.. but he got no trophies either...This has been stated numerous times. Basketball is a TEAM sport...of which Kobe has always had better talent around him. Worst case scenario, they were even...and King James did more with less. Those are Shaq's rings...with Kobe playin sidekick. No Shaq, no ring. Same with D-Wade...unless you believe that D-Wade is better than Lebron too.



and no shit u can see lebron getting six b4 kobe gets 3 more.. b/c lebron is younger and has more time to do it.. i mean kobe is old is nba yrs ffs.
Lebron has a better chance because he does more for his teammates...it's not just his presence on the floor, it's his court vision, his precision passes...and he actually looks to make them. It's not score first, score second, score third...and if I can't get me the top 3 options...then I'll pass.

lilyoder6
05-14-2009, 01:50 AM
Either way, he's a pompous ass who believes he's bigger and better than he is. Even when Lebron got the MVP trophy, he was talking about his teammates, his coaching staff and his fans. He makes the game bigger...because he knows he's not bigger than the game.
this don't mean anything.. whenever anyone wins the big award they always thanking family,friends,god, coaches, teammates, the family dog
This has been stated numerous times. Basketball is a TEAM sport...of which Kobe has always had better talent around him. Worst case scenario, they were even...and King James did more with less. Those are Shaq's rings...with Kobe playin sidekick. No Shaq, no ring. Same with D-Wade...unless you believe that D-Wade is better than Lebron too.
i was just going off of what tony said about why kobe isn't on championship 6 if he is as good as advertised.. goes both ways...


Lebron has a better chance because he does more for his teammates...it's not just his presence on the floor, it's his court vision, his precision passes...and he actually looks to make them. It's not score first, score second, score third...and if I can't get me the top 3 options...then I'll pass.
but u can't deny the fact the he has a better chance b/c he is younger and still has a good 10 yrs left in the league probably

revefsreleets
05-15-2009, 03:29 PM
Both started playing right out of HS. You can't have it both ways.

Anyway, the new Nike commercials with LBJ and Kobe are cool...Powder...puppets. And a little love for Akron, Ohio...

lilyoder6
05-16-2009, 12:44 AM
Anyway, the new Nike commercials with LBJ and Kobe are cool...Powder...puppets. And a little love for Akron, Ohio...

that commercial is pretty funny.. lebron chalking up evrywhere.. haha.. priceless

xfl2001fan
05-19-2009, 12:13 PM
According to Jerry West, Lebron is better! (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4178437)

His resume as a player and a GM is more than impressive.

revefsreleets
05-19-2009, 12:32 PM
The ONLY way to get an accurate picture is if these two can face off in a best of 7. I'm not sure the Lakers even advance, though...which would be a shame.

xfl2001fan
05-19-2009, 04:40 PM
The ONLY way to get an accurate picture is if these two can face off in a best of 7. I'm not sure the Lakers even advance, though...which would be a shame.

Orlando is a matchup nightmare for the Cavs though...this won't likely be over in 4...and it could very easily go to 7.

lilyoder6
05-19-2009, 05:50 PM
According to Jerry West, Lebron is better! (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4178437)

His resume as a player and a GM is more than impressive.

i did see that... but he did say he WILL take KOBE for his last shot to take...

so he saying lebron is the best player but he still gonna take kobe in the end..

Steel_12
05-19-2009, 07:22 PM
I hear all this talk about LeBron making his teammates great...WHO HAS HE MADE GREAT?

The Logo only said that to fire up Kobe for the Lakers terrible performance against a depleted Rockets team.

Orlando is a big matchup problem for Cleveland. Especially if Lewis and Turk are hitting J's. The only way I see Cleveland beating Orlando is if Big Z can keep Howard away from the rim with his J.

xfl2001fan
05-19-2009, 09:53 PM
i did see that... but he did say he WILL take KOBE for his last shot to take...

so he saying lebron is the best player but he still gonna take kobe in the end..

Hmmm, so, he's saying Lebron is the better player. Seems to me that everything else is just side chatter. Keep in mind, Kobe (at 6 years) wasn't nearly as polished as he is now...he's been a work in progress throughout his career...as has Lebron.

xfl2001fan
05-19-2009, 09:58 PM
I hear all this talk about LeBron making his teammates great...WHO HAS HE MADE GREAT?

He's made his teammates better...he's looking to pass to them when they have a better shot...and his drives to the basket force defenses to collapse. Mo/Delonte aren't nearly as good on most other teams. Z (at this stage in his career) isn't nearly as good without Lebron.

The Logo only said that to fire up Kobe for the Lakers terrible performance against a depleted Rockets team.
Or he could have meant what he said.

Orlando is a big matchup problem for Cleveland. Especially if Lewis and Turk are hitting J's. The only way I see Cleveland beating Orlando is if Big Z can keep Howard away from the rim with his J.

I'm more than aware of the matchup problems...so I'm hoping you were having this portion of the discussion towards someone else...

Howard doesn't leave the rim for Z's jumper...he'll stay close by to prevent Lebron from cutting to the hole...and whomever is guarding James will try to funnel his drives towards Howard.

lilyoder6
05-20-2009, 12:23 AM
Hmmm, so, he's saying Lebron is the better player. Seems to me that everything else is just side chatter. Keep in mind, Kobe (at 6 years) wasn't nearly as polished as he is now...he's been a work in progress throughout his career...as has Lebron.

right.. evrything else is side chatter.. b/c he knows when it comes down to the wire he is taking kobe...


and looky.. who was clutch for the lakers in the 4th.. oh my.. it was kobe

SteelersinCA
05-20-2009, 12:38 AM
I hear all this talk about LeBron making his teammates great...WHO HAS HE MADE GREAT?

The Logo only said that to fire up Kobe for the Lakers terrible performance against a depleted Rockets team.

Orlando is a big matchup problem for Cleveland. Especially if Lewis and Turk are hitting J's. The only way I see Cleveland beating Orlando is if Big Z can keep Howard away from the rim with his J.

I think the Lebron makes his players better is a specious argument. Who has he made better?

You can line up the players that Kobe has made better: Gasol, Ariza, Fisher, Odom to name a few. Those players were garbage on other teams, then they come to play with Kobe and they do work. It's easy to say Lebron makes his teammates better because he is more charismatic. Kobe will never again get back to that place because people love to hate him.

revefsreleets
05-20-2009, 08:58 AM
The Cavs take the Magic in 6. Orlando is the second best team in the league this year, so you're watching the REAL finals starting tonight.

LBJ will step it up to an even higher level in this series. I expect him to completely dominate the Magic.

xfl2001fan
05-22-2009, 02:51 PM
I think the Lebron makes his players better is a specious argument. Who has he made better?

You can line up the players that Kobe has made better: Gasol, Ariza, Fisher, Odom to name a few. Those players were garbage on other teams, then they come to play with Kobe and they do work. It's easy to say Lebron makes his teammates better because he is more charismatic. Kobe will never again get back to that place because people love to hate him.

Ariza has been slightly better this season than he was his second in Orlando. Then again, this season is the only season (other than his rookie campaign with the Knicks) where he has played in more than 60 games.

Odom was a pretty good player when he came to LA. Stats aren't everything, but he was better (statistically) with the other LA team than he has been with the Lakers. He's a pretty good role player...but that's pretty much all that he'd be on most teams.

Gasol was not garbage when he came to LA. He was pretty damn good and everyone knew it. He does benefit from having a superstar on his team...but that benefit would be there with nearly any superstar in the NBA.

Fisher was drafted by the Lakers the same year that Kobe was drafted (and then traded to LA.)

You're going to have to come up with a better list than that. I will admit, I had to look up Ariza...because he was a relative unknown to me...but (other than Fisher) the other two were already big before LA.

SteelersinCA
05-22-2009, 03:23 PM
They might have been big names but the easy general consensus is that they are better on the Lakers, might eb Kobe might be Phil, but the argument was lebron makes people better, Kobe does not. Those are 4 ppl Kobe has made better, Brown, Radmanovic are 2 others that come to mind. Whats Radmonovic doing now?

xfl2001fan
05-22-2009, 03:34 PM
Ariza is healthy...that's the biggest reason for his improvement. Odom is a good player...he was when he came to the Lakers...so how has he improved? He's still a pretty good role player...with some potential starting ability. He was that when he came over.

Gasol was a really good player when he came to LA. He's still just a really good player.

What has Kobe done to make Fisher better? Don't know about Radmonovic...I recognize the name, but not much else.

Shannon Brown is hardly a household name. Then again, with Gasol, Odom and Kobe, you could plug nearly every average player (which is the best than can be said about Brown) and they'll improve some. What's he averaging, 14 minutes a game? Has he even achieved 100 games in his career? Seems to me, I remember the Cavs drafting him...and him doing nothing...then he did nothing in Chicago...and then doing nearly nothing in LA.

SteelersinCA
05-22-2009, 03:41 PM
Just admit you hate Kobe and we can move on. Who has Lebron made better? The same argument you make about Lebron making people better can be used about Kobe. Anyone is going to get better when you have to devote more attention to a different player. Hence the term specious. Thinking Lebron is a better team player is a different argument entirely from making someone else better. Even so, Kobe doin work should have opened your eyes to the kind of team player Kobe is. There's a ton of stuff that you don't get to see. Just because Big Baby Shaq didn't like him means nothing to me. Shaq didn't like that Kobe was taking over the team and got butt hurt.

Would you accept the argument that the Cavs make Lebron worse? I doubt it. Ariza has played 4 years in the NBA.

Bottom line is Kobe makes everyone on that team better just like any other superstar would. It's moronic to argue otherwise. Hell even the NBA announcers, who know more about basketball than you and I combined say Kobe has made those guys better.

xfl2001fan
05-22-2009, 03:47 PM
Delonte West- Career best in 3point percentage (it's nice when Lebron passes it to you for a wide open shot...and he does that often) Averaging more points this postseason (13.3) than his career average (10.2).

Mo Williams - Career high 3-point percentage. Career high FT percentage (that's more indivual than Lebron...but there's less pressure for Mo to perform than previously.)

Z got back to All-Star form the season after Lebron was drafted.

Ben Wallace had a resurgence in his already stellar (yet declining) career after leaving Chicago.

Pavlovic improved after coming over from Utah. If it weren't for both Delonte or Mo, he'd be a starter right now. Injuries/contract hold out hurt last season...but teams knew he was nothing without Lebron...and so he couldn't sign on for what he felt like he was worth anywhere else.

xfl2001fan
05-22-2009, 03:53 PM
Just admit you hate Kobe and we can move on. Who has Lebron made better? The same argument you make about Lebron making people better can be used about Kobe. Anyone is going to get better when you have to devote more attention to a different player. Hence the term specious. Thinking Lebron is a better team player is a different argument entirely from making someone else better. Even so, Kobe doin work should have opened your eyes to the kind of team player Kobe is. There's a ton of stuff that you don't get to see. Just because Big Baby Shaq didn't like him means nothing to me. Shaq didn't like that Kobe was taking over the team and got butt hurt.

Would you accept the argument that the Cavs make Lebron worse? I doubt it. Ariza has played 4 years in the NBA.

Bottom line is Kobe makes everyone on that team better just like any other superstar would. It's moronic to argue otherwise. Hell even the NBA announcers, who know more about basketball than you and I combined say Kobe has made those guys better.

HAHAHA You mention "Doing Work" like it should mean something. Half of his teammates were barely able to hide their shock that Kobe actually chatted with them. It's one thing to be on a team full of superstars (Olympics) and chat it up...but when you know you're the alpha dog it's something else entirely. That show was every bit as "real" as reality television is...it's primarily staged events trying to be made to look real.

Could Lebron be better with better teammates? Absolutely. I dont' know that it's saying (exactly) that they make Lebron worse...because another superstar added to the team could take away from Lebron's stats.

I see your point though. Kobe being a superstar makes the other players better...my point is that Lebron makes a concerted effort to make his players better.

FWIW, I'm not a fan of Shaq Me First either. He's comical. He's witty. He's got a big personality and can probably be a lot of fun to hang out with in short spurts. But he wants waaaay too much spotlight for me. Especially when you consider the decline in his skill set.

I'm not a fan of Kobe...because I perceive him to be a selfish player. While he can be a gifted passer and all that other stuff that Lebron does regularly...he doesn't do it consistently. He's perfected the game of one on one moves and is silky smooth doing it. But he's not much of a team guy.

SteelersinCA
05-22-2009, 03:58 PM
Delonte West- Career best in 3point percentage (it's nice when Lebron passes it to you for a wide open shot...and he does that often) Averaging more points this postseason (13.3) than his career average (10.2).

Mo Williams - Career high 3-point percentage. Career high FT percentage (that's more indivual than Lebron...but there's less pressure for Mo to perform than previously.)

Z got back to All-Star form the season after Lebron was drafted.

Ben Wallace had a resurgence in his already stellar (yet declining) career after leaving Chicago.

Pavlovic improved after coming over from Utah. If it weren't for both Delonte or Mo, he'd be a starter right now. Injuries/contract hold out hurt last season...but teams knew he was nothing without Lebron...and so he couldn't sign on for what he felt like he was worth anywhere else.


3PT % really? Ok then Gasol is averaging 50% from the 3 pt line this season 1 for 2. Thats what you got? I think the point has been made, Gasol has more than doubled his career 3PT% this year. See how retarded this argument is?

xfl2001fan
05-22-2009, 05:08 PM
3PT % really? Ok then Gasol is averaging 50% from the 3 pt line this season 1 for 2. Thats what you got? I think the point has been made, Gasol has more than doubled his career 3PT% this year. See how retarded this argument is?

Ahh, sample size should mean something though. These guys are playing better because of the Superstar treatment...and because the Superstar actually treats them (in game) to some great looks. He does it constant and consistent all season long.

tony hipchest
05-22-2009, 06:43 PM
since its pretty much clear to me now that labron > kobe, perhaps its time this conversation take a shift to carmello vs. kobe.

head to head, anthony is every bit the player kobe is.

lilyoder6
05-22-2009, 09:12 PM
since its pretty much clear to me now that labron > kobe, perhaps its time this conversation take a shift to carmello vs. kobe.

head to head, anthony is every bit the player kobe is.

RIght..................

u just want to change the subject..



gettin back to sunject here...

if u stop lebron from getting to the basket.. he is done... that is his game right now.. be big and atk the board.. u take that away, what can he do??? he's on avg from mid-point and the perimeter.

u stop kobe at one thing.. he is just going to hurt u in another area.. he has the best mid-range game, it's basically unreal.. and we all saw some of the highlights from game 2 last night.. when melo was in kobe's grill.. and he just popped the 3.... i don't see lebrick doin anything like that on a consistant basis

tony hipchest
05-22-2009, 09:43 PM
no way!

im not changing the subject. just adding to it.

as we stand today...

james>anthony>bryant

just an observation. carry on.

xfl2001fan
05-22-2009, 10:17 PM
if u stop lebron from getting to the basket.. he is done... that is his game right now.. be big and atk the board.. u take that away, what can he do??? he's on avg from mid-point and the perimeter.

u stop kobe at one thing.. he is just going to hurt u in another area.. he has the best mid-range game, it's basically unreal.. and we all saw some of the highlights from game 2 last night.. when melo was in kobe's grill.. and he just popped the 3.... i don't see lebrick doin anything like that on a consistant basis

His 34.4% 3 point percentage indicates that he's becoming a much better/more complete player. His career high in FG% is also an indicator that you are living in the past.

Kobe is a great shooter. I have always said that. You keep saying that...but seem to think that it's the only thing that matters. Lebrons 48.9% FG is higher than Kobe has EVER had. Go on, you can look it up. Lebron is a more consistent scorer. He may not be as good a shooter...but he scores at will...and does it consistently.

In fact, Lebrons career average of .471 is better than EVERY season that Kobe has had. Lebron scores consistently. You say take away his drive to the basket...but who can do that consistently? Nobody. You want to know why? For the same reason that you believe that Kobe can shoot whenever he wants. Lebron has worked hard to ensure that he gets his points...and does so consistently. The difference is that Kobe has had 13 seasons to perfect his craft...Lebron 6.

Lebron will continue to get better...and he has already surpassed Kobe. Eventually you'll realize that your arguments are just futile kobe knob-slobbering.

And Tony, you are right. Melo is (at worst) as good as Kobe right now...and should be considered (next season) to be in contention with the other likely MVP candidates (CP3, LBJ, D-Wade).

lilyoder6
05-22-2009, 11:12 PM
i am not talking about stats there skippy... did i mention any stats??? it looks like to me ... u keep bringing that weak shit in here, b/c this 1 season, his %'s actually look good..

and u know it's true.. that lebron's game is based on 1 thing, and that is atking the board,.. u shut that down what he gonna do?? wow.. 1 yr his percentages look good.. woohooo.. i bet his fg % sits nicely b/c he can atk the board so well,,, i wonder how many those fg's are actually outside the paint??

and kobe can hurt u from the perimeter, mid-range or in the paint.. i would say him and lebron are both good passer's.. but u know this is true,.,

lilyoder6
05-22-2009, 11:26 PM
the argument of how each player makes ppl around them better is mute... any great star will make ppl around him look good... no matter what..

then the stats come in, sure lebron stats are going to be higher than kobe b/c lebron has to do a shit load more for his team than kobe does, tell me that if kobe had to do the same thing that lebron has to do, kobe's stats would be around the same or possibly better

and to add in the fact that kobe is 33 yrs old, playing with a torn up finger for the last 18 months, in which any person would need surgery on.. the man is sick...

but i will say.. that this is prob the last season this debate can actually hold any water.. lebron is getting better, i think another summer of olympics with kobe, he would be a mother effin beast next yr.. but sooner or later kobe is not going to be as sick as he is on a daily basis

xfl2001fan
05-22-2009, 11:47 PM
STFU KID.... that right there.. just shows u know nothing....

u should know more than anything else.. that was a chuck and pray shot...

Why don't you STFU kid? Chuck and pray? No, not even close. Catch and shoot. He squared his shoulders, elevated and released at the right spot (you know, just like Kobe would do.)

i would say it was an awesome shot.. but u and i know that when he shot that, he was not confident that it was gonna go in

If he wasn't confident it was going in, it wouldn't go in. So there's another line of BS sprayed by Kobe's biggest knob-slobber on this particular site. Great form, great timing, great CLUTCH shot. Get used to it, Lebron is the best in the NBA. You'll be seeing more of that.

and now, i see we only going off of 1 thing??? the difference here.. is kobe is clutch night in and night out where lebron isn't
Really, where was Kobe during the last game against Denver? How much did the Lakers lose by? 3 points. Where was Kobe when they needed those extra three points? Or is Kobe only clutch when they win? Because so far, it looks to me like King James team is 1-1, just like the Black Mamba's. Looks to me like King James just NAILED a game winner to even the series...whereas your "clutch/consistent" whatever didn't do quite enough to win.

If you're going to nitpick games (I noticed you said nothing after the loss) then so will I. Either way, take off your Kobe blinders and recognize greatness when you WITNESS it. It's there for your viewing pleasure and will likely be the #1 highlight tomorrow morning on ESPN's Top-10 plays!!!!!!!!

Blitzburgh_Fever
05-22-2009, 11:52 PM
STFU KID.... that right there.. just shows u know nothing....

u should know more than anything else.. that was a chuck and pray shot...
i would say it was an awesome shot.. but u and i know that when he shot that, he was not confident that it was gonna go in

and last time i checked.. lebron has done shit in the finals

Reading your posts always takes me a while to understand, so my apologies if this seems hasty or is misinterpreted, but you're seriously going to say that was a prayer? Watch him make a cut, get somewhat open, and then have great form on a clutch three. That's not a prayer, it's a play. I hate Cleveland too (especially the terrible Satellite radio announcers who can't help but try to take jabs at the Steelers when calling other sports), but saying LeBron is shit/has done shit is probably one of the more homer things that's been said.

Hell, it doesn't even matter that if it had been a prayer. He stepped up when his team needed him. This is like calling Ben's throw a prayer, Santo's hands being there luck, and Santo's feet being easy. In other words, it's bullshit.

I would argue Kobe is a better shooter. But LeBron is far and away the better player.

lilyoder6
05-22-2009, 11:53 PM
obv.. u a an effing moron...
i am a big lebron james fan... i just know, that right now.. kobe's game is better than lebron... thats being fair

2nd.. rly?? so since he beleived, the shot went in.... i;m gonna go 2 bed tonight, beleiving i am gonna be the richest man tom., am i gonna wake up tom the richest man??

3rd.. i didn't say anything after the laker loss, b./c in my post, i said i didn't watch the game,, so i could not comment....

4th.. i have been seeing clutch shots the last 12 seasons that kobe has been in the league.. remember he has 3 rings,,

and lastly.. that was a chuck and pray.. it was nice form and what not.. but that made shot was a lot of luck it..

lilyoder6
05-22-2009, 11:55 PM
Reading your posts always takes me a while to understand, so my apologies if this seems hasty or is misinterpreted, but you're seriously going to say that was a prayer? Watch him make a cut, get somewhat open, and then have great form on a clutch three. That's not a prayer, it's a play. I hate Cleveland too (especially the terrible Satellite radio announcers who can't help but try to take jabs at the Steelers when calling other sports), but saying LeBron is shit/has done shit is probably one of the more homer things that's been said.

Hell, it doesn't even matter that if it had been a prayer. He stepped up when his team needed him. This is like calling Ben's throw a prayer, Santo's hands being there luck, and Santo's feet being easy. In other words, it's bullshit.

I would argue Kobe is a better shooter. But LeBron is far and away the better player.

again.. i am not a lebron hater.. and i have never said he is shit.. i just said he has done shit in the finals, which in truth he hasn't

and to say that luck had nothing to do with this shot... or even the throw and catch by ben and holmes.. then u must be high

Steel_12
05-22-2009, 11:58 PM
Cleveland is lucky they didn't go down 0-2...series would've been OVER. Great shot by LBJ...Orlando will still win this series in 6 though.

lilyoder6
05-22-2009, 11:59 PM
i would say.. that mo williams would make a good mime.. he didn't even move when he inbounded that pass

xfl2001fan
05-22-2009, 11:59 PM
obv.. u a an effing moron...
i am a big lebron james fan... i just know, that right now.. kobe's game is better than lebron... thats being fair
Kobe's shot is better, Lebron's all around game is better, hence, Lebron is the better player. obv.. u a an effing moron...
2nd.. rly?? so since he beleived, the shot went in.... i;m gonna go 2 bed tonight, beleiving i am gonna be the richest man tom., am i gonna wake up tom the richest man??Let's quote you on this one. obv.. u a an effing moron... He has confidence in his shot. He believes in his shot. I believe in an earlier post, I explained his 3 point percentage being what it was. He's turned into a pretty decent three point shooter. Just because you choose to remember every other year (other than this one) is your fault. I have given you the evidence, you choose to ignore it. Ignorance is one thing. But when you choose to remain "ignorant", your ignorance becomes stupidity. obv.. u a an effing moron...

3rd.. i didn't say anything after the laker loss, b./c in my post, i said i didn't watch the game,, so i could not comment....
How convenient.
4th.. i have been seeing clutch shots the last 12 seasons that kobe has been in the league.. remember he has 3 rings,,
Clutch for 12 seasons? Really? The rings are Shaq's. Get over it. Shaq was the reason why he got them. Otherwise, Fisher is a better player than Lebron, because he has three rings. I have seen Lebron hit clutch shots the last 6 seasons. See how easy that statement is to make. Here's a thought, clutch shot happens, when games are close. This season, Lebron hasn't had to hit many "clutch" shots, because he hits so many during the game, most games aren't close. This was a close game, he hit the most important shot of the game. The game winning three point shot. obv.. u a an effing moron...CLUTCH

and lastly.. that was a chuck and pray.. it was nice form and what not.. but that made shot was a lot of luck it..
If that's the case, then EVERY shot by EVERY player is a chuck and a pray.
obv.. u a an effing moron...

Steel_12
05-23-2009, 12:07 AM
Kobe's shot is better, Lebron's all around game is better, hence, Lebron is the better player. obv.. u a an effing moron...
Let's quote you on this one. obv.. u a an effing moron... He has confidence in his shot. He believes in his shot. I believe in an earlier post, I explained his 3 point percentage being what it was. He's turned into a pretty decent three point shooter. Just because you choose to remember every other year (other than this one) is your fault. I have given you the evidence, you choose to ignore it. Ignorance is one thing. But when you choose to remain "ignorant", your ignorance becomes stupidity. obv.. u a an effing moron...


How convenient.

Clutch for 12 seasons? Really? The rings are Shaq's. Get over it. Shaq was the reason why he got them. Otherwise, Fisher is a better player than Lebron, because he has three rings. I have seen Lebron hit clutch shots the last 6 seasons. See how easy that statement is to make. Here's a thought, clutch shot happens, when games are close. This season, Lebron hasn't had to hit many "clutch" shots, because he hits so many during the game, most games aren't close. This was a close game, he hit the most important shot of the game. The game winning three point shot. obv.. u a an effing moron...CLUTCH


If that's the case, then EVERY shot by EVERY player is a chuck and a pray.
obv.. u a an effing moron...

The only thing LeBron can do better than Kobe is pass the ball. Since he has the ball in his hands 96% of the time, that's not saying much. Kobe is the better defender and offensive player. One year on the all-defensive team doesn't make him better than Kobe defensively. LeBron's game offensively is going to the hole hard...that's it!!! Yeah he pulls up for a J every now and then but that's too far in between. Anyway, no reason to continue this debate...two different style of players. Kobe is a true Shooting Guard...James is a Point Forward. Might as well compare MJ and Magic...can't do it!

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 12:09 AM
hahahaha.... it's cute when u get angry... i am feeling sad for u

on a catch and shoot.. u are praying thats going in.. dumbass...

but if u have time like mr. 4th qtr did tonight.. then thats not praying, b/c u playing ur game... i guess u were never good seperating things..

and bout stats, i said he is getting better,., but i guess u can't read.. but this is his 1st yr of actually being decent from the perimeter,, and to say he is awesome from there is stupid.. how many times have ppl fell for the 1 hit wonders??? not saying lebron is a 1 hit wonder, but u can;t base anything on 1 yr.. u need a consistant play from that area to say the man is good

and i didn't watch the game.. b/c i actually have a life and things to do.. i always just can't sit down and watch a game anytime i want to...
when u get older... u will realize this.. and if u are old enough, that u sad, and need to get out more

Blitzburgh_Fever
05-23-2009, 12:10 AM
and to say that luck had nothing to do with this shot... or even the throw and catch by ben and holmes.. then u must be high

There's definitely luck involved, but that's a lot different than a prayer. Favre has made a career out of prayers, LeBron had a 50/50 shot of making that, which is realistically pretty good odds.

i would say.. that mo williams would make a good mime.. he didn't even move when he inbounded that pass

That's what bothered me tonight. They set up a player, get LeBron the ball, then the Cavs just stand still. Was happening constantly.

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 12:11 AM
The only thing LeBron can do better than Kobe is pass the ball. Since he has the ball in his hands 96% of the time, that's not saying much. Kobe is the better defender and offensive player. One year on the all-defensive team doesn't make him better than Kobe defensively. LeBron's game offensively is going to the hole hard...that's it!!! Yeah he pulls up for a J every now and then but that's too far in between. Anyway, no reason to continue this debate...two different style of players. Kobe is a true Shooting Guard...James is a Point Forward. Might as well compare MJ and Magic...can't do it!

thats what i said.. lebron's game is based soley on atking the board. b/c of his size and athleticism.. but u shut that down,, he won't be affective at all..

to where as kobe can and will hurt u from anywhere on the court... he has shown it time and time again

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 12:14 AM
There's definitely luck involved, but that's a lot different than a prayer. Favre has made a career out of prayers, LeBron had a 50/50 shot of making that, which is realistically pretty good odds.

and thats what i'm saying... maybe a prayer was out of context, but he just shot the ball hoping it would go in... if he would work and such, he can get to the lvl where mj and kobe and some other greats, to where, when u shoot that shot within ur range, more or less,, u expect to make that shot

That's what bothered me tonight. They set up a player, get LeBron the ball, then the Cavs just stand still. Was happening constantly.

and the cavs need to fix that... 2nd game in a row, where they had a huge lead, and blew.. and they stole this game, but they can;t keep letting this happen.. it will hurt them in the long run

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 12:24 AM
The rings are Shaq's. Get over it.

yes,,, u are so right,. b/c during those times.. kobe was a scrub.. he was so bad.. it wasn't even funny right...

what did kobe even do to contribute to those wins..
b/c 29.4 and 26.4 per season.. is not doing anything to help the team win anything...

and honestly,, i think that if phil didn't eff up the relationship with kobe and shaq... they would of surpassed the 6 rings.. mj had..

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 08:07 AM
The only thing LeBron can do better than Kobe is pass the ball. Since he has the ball in his hands 96% of the time, that's not saying much. Kobe is the better defender and offensive player. One year on the all-defensive team doesn't make him better than Kobe defensively. LeBron's game offensively is going to the hole hard...that's it!!! Yeah he pulls up for a J every now and then but that's too far in between. Anyway, no reason to continue this debate...two different style of players. Kobe is a true Shooting Guard...James is a Point Forward. Might as well compare MJ and Magic...can't do it!

Lebron is a better passer and rebounder. Kobe can be a lockdown defender, but doesn't do that nearly as much, where as (this season) Lebron has been intensely focused on playing great defense. Prior to this season, Kobe's the better defender. Not anymore. Lebron is also the more versatile defender...as he can defend any position 1-4...and some smaller centers too.

on a catch and shoot.. u are praying thats going in.. dumbass...
Then on any play, you are praying that it goes in, dumbass. A catch and shoot is a normal NBA play. It happens throughout the game on lots of team. It's not like he had to weirdly contort his body, or was firing a deep three...it was a three point shot and (if it weren't for it being in the last second) you wouldn't be calling it a prayer. Dumbass

but if u have time like mr. 4th qtr did tonight.. then thats not praying, b/c u playing ur game... i guess u were never good seperating things..Read the comment above dumbass. Mr 4th quarter left too much time on the clock, because 1 second is more than enough time for any body who can shoot the three to do a catch and shoot. Go back and look at the highlights. Who was "guarding" Lebron? Oh yeah, Mr 4th Quarter. Looks to me like he failed in his "Mr 4th Quarter" responsibilities.

and bout stats, i said he is getting better,., but i guess u can't read.. but this is his 1st yr of actually being decent from the perimeter,, and to say he is awesome from there is stupid.. how many times have ppl fell for the 1 hit wonders??? not saying lebron is a 1 hit wonder, but u can;t base anything on 1 yr.. u need a consistant play from that area to say the man is good
So in his second season, when he hit 108 of 308 (.351) of his three pointers, he wasn't good from the perimiter? Because, last I checked, that's better than what he's done this season (.344). Or is 308 three point attempts too small of a sample size for you? But, I guess you can't read, or do simple research before you post your "dumbass" comments. He's a guy who has improved different areas of his game every season, while trying to incorporate his teammates into the fold/gameplan.

and i didn't watch the game.. b/c i actually have a life and things to do.. i always just can't sit down and watch a game anytime i want to...
when u get older... u will realize this.. and if u are old enough, that u sad, and need to get out moreSo, because I choose to sit down at 2030/2100 hours and watch the game I need to get out more? And do what? I have a wife and kids. They are my life.

"when u get a woman... u will realize this.. and if u do have one, that u sad"

Don't mock my lifestyle when you nothing about me, what I do, where I live. Stop calling me names. You notice, when you resort into a personal attack, I post it right back at you. It's not anger, it's not resentment. It's just turning the tables. I'm far from a dumbass. In fact, when people read your posts...and then read mine, they question me. They feel like I've brought myself down to your level.

thats what i said.. lebron's game is based soley on atking the board. b/c of his size and athleticism.. but u shut that down,, he won't be affective at all..

to where as kobe can and will hurt u from anywhere on the court... he has shown it time and time again
Lebron's game is based solely on finding the most effecient way to score. He's constantly adding to his repetoire (much like Kobe works his game) but Lebron drives to the hole knowing the defense will collapse and he'll be able to dish the ball to an open teammate. You can't just shut Lebron down by taking away the lane. He's adding a little more to his post up game, his mid-range, his three point shot and his foul shooting. He's doing this to make the team better. He was looking to dish it to Donyell Marshall, Larry Hughes, Damon Jones. He continues to look for Pavlovic, West, Williams and Z.

Saying that Lebron only drives to the hole is oversimplifying. For instance, Kobe is only a great shooter.

It's ridiculous to make blanket statements like that. Yes, Lebron drives to the basket a lot...but that's his bread and butter. He has consistently added more to his game every season and will continue to do so.

yes,,, u are so right,. b/c during those times.. kobe was a scrub.. he was so bad.. it wasn't even funny right...

what did kobe even do to contribute to those wins..
b/c 29.4 and 26.4 per season.. is not doing anything to help the team win anything...

and honestly,, i think that if phil didn't eff up the relationship with kobe and shaq... they would of surpassed the 6 rings.. mj had..

Didn't say that he was a scrub. He's as much a scrub as Scottie Pippen was. Both are great players who just so happened to win their rings when there was a more dominating player on their team.

The post season that Kobe averaged 29.4, Shaq trumped him with 30.4. When Kobe hit 26.4 the next season, Shaq was hitting 28.5. They helped each other out, but without Shaq, Kobe hasn't won. Kinda like Shaq's first three rings came when he had his Scottie (in Kobe) and then earned another when he played with D-wade. Two stars on one team. Kobe just so happened to be the sidekick.

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 11:20 AM
lebron just doesn't move like the best basketball player in the world. Put almost any part Kobe Bryant's game in super slow motion, and you'll see beauty. Every little part of his game is refined, perfected, tested and honed ... Put LeBron James clips in super slow motion, and you're liable to find things here and there that he could do a little better. That footwork, that release, that way that he walks a little bit like a duck. There is a cognitive leap. Could the best basketball player in the world have noticeable flaws?

But does lebron have that sense of the moment like Kobe does? Can he just walk on the court and say "I got this" to his teammates. I'm not sure he's there yet

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 11:21 AM
Josh Tucker, Silver Screen and Roll: LeBron James is the MVP; Kobe Bryant is the better player.

Both are lockdown defenders, fantastic passers, capable of scoring or facilitating and excellent leaders of their teams. The primary differences lie in each player's individual offensive repertoires, and the key here is the versatility, polish, and completeness of each player's game.

LeBron James is a player with one primary, ultradeveloped offensive skill: his ability to get to the hoop for layups and dunks. At the same time, there are several areas that he has yet to develop. He has improved his 3-point and free throw shooting this year, but even so, both are average at best. He has no midrange jumper, he doesn't use screens effectively, and his post game is suspect. His athleticism and quickness are his primary tools, and his footwork at this point is still fairly rudimentary -- which, in part, explains why he's not better in the post. (Imagine what a player of his size, strength, and athleticism could do in the post with Kobe's footwork!)

Kobe Bryant doesn't have a single dominant skill that far outweighs all others, like LeBron does. Instead, he has the most complete, versatile, and polished skill set in the NBA. Pull-up jumper, leaner, runner, floater, fadeaway, fallaway, midrange, long-range, close-range, pump fake, jab step, up-and-under, dunk, layup, left hand, right hand, face-up, post-up, driving, elevating, strength, savvy, power, finesse, balance, body control, footwork. Bryant can do it all. His footwork, in particular, is unparalleled, and because of it, he is extremely effective in the post, making easy work of smaller players and even taking advantage of larger players without the fundamental skill set to compete with his own.

Simply put, the difference between the two boils down to unprecedented raw athleticism versus unequaled, finely honed skill.

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 11:23 AM
In some sense, we're not really debating the greatness of Kobe versus the greatness of LeBron. We're debating how we measure greatness.

I think a major part of deciding any X vs. Y player debate, is you've got to decide what's most important. Obviously, it makes it easy when a guy's got the total package. A guy like Jordan did it all. He's got the rings, the stats, the commercials and the brand name. If Jordan had gone the Barry Sanders route, do you think he'd be as revered? If he had disappeared once the lights were off, do you think we'd remember him quite as fondly? People still talk about him and Bird's Micky D's commercial. That's staying power. So when we evaluate Kobe and LeBron years from now, who's going to be the one that had it? They're both going to finish with elite statistics. They're both going to finish with rings. They're both going to have dominated their sport like few have before them. But who are we going to remember?

lilyoder6
05-23-2009, 11:26 AM
and xfl.. if i hurt ur wee lil feelins i'm sry..

i mean if u think getting called a name or two is hurtful or a personal atk, get over it

idk where u have been or living, but thats how ppl talk, always throwing shit like that around, it's the way ppl talk

xfl2001fan
05-23-2009, 11:28 AM
Wow, you managed to quote somebody elses writing and not bother giving credit to the source. Fortunately, we all know it's not you posting because there aren't grammar/spelling issues. The thoughts are complete, the sentence structure is correct and it's easy to understand.

Congratulations. Now, try coming up with your own thoughts and insights.

and xfl.. if i hurt ur wee lil feelins i'm sry..

i mean if u think getting called a name or two is hurtful or a personal atk, get over it

idk where u have been or living, but thats how ppl talk, always throwing shit like that around, it's the way ppl talk

I don't know where you were raised at, but it's called bad manners, being rude, or acting like an asshat where I have been raised. talking smack is one thing...but this isn't smack talk between you and I as basketball players, this is meant to intelligently debate the merits of two superstars in the NBA today. Now, if we're on the court playing each other, talk sh!t and call names all day long. I don't care. There's no need for it in here.

My feelings aren't hurt because some punk on the internet with terrible writing skills called me a name. I just don't appreciate rudeness. I expect better from people around me. You have no grounds to stand on when you call me a moron and a dumbass. None. Pointing out the flaws in your (for lack of better words) argument doesn't mean I'm actually offended. I just thought you'd be above such petty childishness in an adults world.

Then again, maybe expecting you to act/type/write/talk like an adult is an unreal expectation on my part...and nothing more than a chidlish fantasy.