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Vincent
04-30-2009, 08:46 AM
baraka hussein obama is revealing his true colors. He is selling out Israel, coddling up to all of our enemies, all of which sets the stage for our demise. Wonder how many liberal Jews that voted for him still support him. Yeah, probably all of them.

I have hesitated to say this but his actions now demonstrate his satanic nature… http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/comparet/comp7.html

“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. Matthew 25: 31-34 NLT

He goes on to tell how the SHEEP NATIONS are given the Kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world while the GOAT NATIONS are cast into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0&item=131107
Report: Intelligence Warns Israel is now an ‘Obstacle to Obama'
Iyar 5, 5769, 29 April 09 09:49
by Gil Ronen

(IsraelNN.com) According to a classified intelligence assessment handed to Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, U.S. President Barack Obama and his senior advisors wish to “incrementally diminish U.S. strategic cooperation with Israel.”

A report in World Tribune quoted an Israeli source familiar with the intelligence assessment who said that "Obama wants to make friends with our worst enemies and [those who were] until now the worst enemies of the United States. Under this policy,” the source added, “we are more than irrelevant. We have become an obstacle.”

According to the report, which has not been corroborated by news sources other than World Tribune, Israeli sources said the U.S. Administration would reject Israel’s intelligence opinions on Iran and Syria while advancing the Obama plan to reconcile with the two states, although both were listed as state sponsors of terrorism by the U.S. State Department.

The Israeli intelligence document reportedly predicted that Obama would maintain his policy of appeasing Iran and Syria through 2010. It determined that Obama is convinced that appeasing Iran and Syria would make a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan possible.

Pressure on Israel
"Obama will want to show Iran, Syria and radical Muslims that the United States could pressure Israel on a strategic level," the source said. "The pressure has already begun and will intensify throughout the next year or two."

At the same time, the intelligence officials estimated that Obama would restrict U.S. arms exports to Israel in an effort to deny it systems that it could use in a raid on Iran or Syria. The intelligence sources said this policy was begun during the last year of the Bush administration and predicted that it would intensify under Obama.

Carter: US and Syria Close to Full Relations

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter said on Tuesday that the U.S. and Syria are close to restoring full diplomatic ties. "Syrian President Bashar Assad is very eager to restore full ties with Washington," Carter told Haaretz. "I wouldn't be surprised if it happens this year," he added, speaking on the phone from Quito, Ecuador, at the start of a four-nation South American trip.

Carter plans to meet Assad in Syria in early June.

Meanwhile, Syrian President Bashar Assad said Tuesday that Obama would face “a serious crisis in the Middle East” if he does not fix the mistakes made by his predecessor George W. Bush, within a year’s time.

On a visit to Vienna after meeting Austrian leaders and intellectuals, Assad called on the U.S. to rapidly withdraw its troops from Iraq. This, he claimed, would resolve "50 per cent of the problem," Austrian news agency APA reported.

However, by appeasing Iran and Syria the U.S. is risking alienating Egypt.

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak warned Egypt's rivals in the Middle East Wednesday that he would not tolerate what he called their "tampering with security and stability" in his country, a reference to Iran and the Hizbullah terror militia that it supports..

Mubarak's comments were his the most strongly worded ones

revefsreleets
04-30-2009, 08:57 AM
Woah, now...Satanic?

C'mon, we all know that BUSH is Satanic. He eats babies for breakfast! His heart is evil! He hates blacks! The poor!

Obama is the savior! All Praise Obama!

Vincent
04-30-2009, 09:24 AM
Woah, now...Satanic?

C'mon, we all know that BUSH is Satanic. He eats babies for breakfast! His heart is evil! He hates blacks! The poor!

Obama is the savior! All Praise Obama!

Ye shall know them by their fruits.

X-Terminator
04-30-2009, 09:43 AM
I don't know why we even bother having a presence over there in the first place. I say pull out all our support and troops from the region, and let them blow each other to bits. So long as not one more American soldier is killed or dollar spent on people who'd rather see us all dead anyway.

SteelersinCA
04-30-2009, 09:53 AM
I don't know why we even bother having a presence over there in the first place. I say pull out all our support and troops from the region, and let them blow each other to bits. So long as not one more American soldier is killed or dollar spent on people who'd rather see us all dead anyway.

Amen.

Vincent
04-30-2009, 10:31 AM
I don't know why we even bother having a presence over there in the first place. I say pull out all our support and troops from the region, and let them blow each other to bits. So long as not one more American soldier is killed or dollar spent on people who'd rather see us all dead anyway.

I agree with you entirely because the idea on a drop of American blood being shed for any reason but in defense of this country grinds me. That's the visceral side. The rational side asks what this world might look like had we not entered the wars of the last century. One might also ask what the ME would look like if we pulled out.

Strategically, we have been the stabilizer in that region since the Sun set on the British empire. I don't like that any more than anyone else. But we need a "stable" ME because we rely on it for much of our oil. And it all comes down to the fact that ME oil is much easier and cheaper to pump that oil from other sources. As long as that's the case, we'll continue to seek to influence the ME.

One could also argue that bho's embrace of our enemies and move away from supporting Israel is but a shift in strategy seeking the same outcome. I can understand that thinking but disagree.

The ME is a different bit of real estate than the rest of the world because of the whole God/allah, Abraham, Isaac & Ishmael thing. Ask any Arab, and it all comes down to that. In any dealings with the ME one needs to consider those "larger dynamics". Even the casual observer of history needs to recognize the importance of Israel to somebody we call God. God sides with Israel and doesn't look kindly on those who don't. And that is why this direction by the bho administration scares the @#$% out of me.

stlrtruck
04-30-2009, 12:49 PM
Ye shall know them by their fruits.

I'm just guessing here, but I think you missed his sarcasm there.

xfl2001fan
04-30-2009, 02:47 PM
God sides with Israel and doesn't look kindly on those who don't. And that is why this direction by the bho administration scares the @#$% out of me.

To play devil's advocate here...answer me a few questions.

What is the Bible (in particular, reference the old testament)?
When was the bible written?
When was the King James revision written?
Who decided which books do/don't belong in the bible?
What is Christianity?
What's the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist?
Are they not both Christians?
If you're a Christian, why don't you celebrate Jewish Holidays? To be a Christian is to strive to be Christ-like (right?)...and Christ was a Jew.

For centuries, the Roman Catholic Church ruled (yes, ruled) most of Europe and used the church to crush the opposition. They used God's name like a sword, instead of the shield it was intended...and cut anybody who disagreed with any form of their beliefs. The Spanish Inquisition...hell, you could even look at Braveheart. (While the movie in and of itself isn't historically accurate, it's a great reference point into the behaviors of the church and it's officials of that time.)

If they can do that, why can't they "come up with their revisionists version? For that matter, if you're to believe the Bible at it's face value, this was going on during Jesus time as well. Note his battles with the Sadducees and Pharisees. They were constantly trying to use the scripture to undermine Him. If they were doing it then, who's to say they weren't doing it long before (and certainly long after?)

Maybe God used to favor Israel, until such time that Israel turned it's back on God? Relying on God to protect you is only going to carry you so far...especially when you aren't doing anything Godly and doing even less to protect yourself. Praying 5 times a day doesn't change the fact that you're a sinner...and if your actions are pre-meditated, it has an even less effect.

God doesn't love Israel anymore than loves Iran/Iraq/US/or any other place. He loves His people...all of them. He'll shelther those who are doing their best to live a Godly life...but even then, we are in our world, not His. His kingdom is Heaven. This place, this is our chance to prove to ourselves whether there is enough in us to be judged worthy. Whether you were born/raised in Israel will not have any bearing on your Judgement. How you acted within your environment will.

If this has rained on your parade, I apologize...it's not my intent. But the moment you bring scripture into things, (all of which was written by Man) I have to call you into account.

Vincent
04-30-2009, 03:58 PM
To play devil's advocate here...answer me a few questions.

The debil has the answers you seek. Ask him. :chuckle:

For centuries, the Roman Catholic Church ruled (yes, ruled) most of Europe and used the church to crush the opposition.

I have no predisposition to any denomination of any religion, nor have I referenced any in this thread.

If they can do that, why can't they "come up with their revisionists version? For that matter, if you're to believe the Bible at it's face value, this was going on during Jesus time as well. Note his battles with the Sadducees and Pharisees. They were constantly trying to use the scripture to undermine Him. If they were doing it then, who's to say they weren't doing it long before (and certainly long after?)

The aforementioned debil spoke at Jesus through the Sadducees and Pharisees. And Jesus turned their words back against them.

Maybe God used to favor Israel, until such time that Israel turned it's back on God?... God doesn't love Israel anymore than loves Iran/Iraq/US/or any other place.

You seem to have well formed opinions regarding religion. Guessing from a quality education. You may have noted that God made promises to Abraham and his descendants regarding Israel. I have made no suggestion that God loves anyone or doesn't

He loves His people...all of them. He'll shelter those who are doing their best to live a Godly life...

I couldn't agree more.

If this has rained on your parade, I apologize...it's not my intent.

Not at all. This is a forum. Air it out. :drink:

But the moment you bring scripture into things, (all of which was written by Man) I have to call you into account.

I will respectfully disagree here. My personal belief if that that which we refer to as the Bible is the inspired word of God.

My point here is not to thump the Bible or get into a long drawn out debate on religion. Rather, returning to the first post in the thread, I am voicing my concern that America is turning our backs on Israel. Israel has but one ally in this world. If we step away, all will pounce on her. God said what He said. I'd prefer to not be in the goat side of that equation.

SteelersinCA
04-30-2009, 04:11 PM
Maybe god will give the Jews a new place to call Israel. I got news for you, when we are done with oil, Israel will be on her own. The ole clock is ticking on Israel.

fansince'76
04-30-2009, 04:18 PM
Maybe god will give the Jews a new place to call Israel. I got news for you, when we are done with oil, Israel will be on her own. The ole clock is ticking on Israel.

As it is, I think Israel can do just fine on her own - seems to me she's singlehandedly kicked the living shit out of her neighbors more than once.

xfl2001fan
04-30-2009, 04:46 PM
The debil has the answers you seek. Ask him. :chuckle:
Nice. LOL

I have no predisposition to any denomination of any religion, nor have I referenced any in this thread.
Sorry, it wasn't meant to bring out your religious beliefs, only to highlight the reasons that there are so many variations of Christianity.

The aforementioned debil spoke at Jesus through the Sadducees and Pharisees. And Jesus turned their words back against them.
In this, we'll have to agree to disagree. My take is that it was greedy power hungry men who sought to use the Church as their means for power. What better way to maintain control of the masses than to keep them uneducated and punish any non-believer. It's not always the Devil (or God) directly influencing our lives.

You seem to have well formed opinions regarding religion. Guessing from a quality education. You may have noted that God made promises to Abraham and his descendants regarding Israel. I have made no suggestion that God loves anyone or doesn'tActually, my "quality" of education involves 9 semester hours of college, none of which has anything remotely to do with religion. I've chosen to study (and I use that word loosely) various major religions, because I believe that I was given a mind for a reason. That, and I love debate. You may have noticed that on this board. :chuckle:

Not at all. This is a forum. Air it out. :drink:
Glad that you have an intellect as well as faith. Both are equally important. :drink: (mines water, I don't do alcohol).

I will respectfully disagree here. My personal belief if that that which we refer to as the Bible is the inspired word of God.
Inspired word of God or not, somebody had to write it down. Even if you look at the new Testament...there are huge inconsistencies with "The Gospels". Look at how each (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) each describe the resurrection. Something that important, you'd think, would be the exact same story told by each. And yet, whom did the angel speak to? Was it just Mary Magdalene (John 20:1) , or was there more than one woman involved (Matthew 28:1, Luke 24:1)?

Minor details (in the grand scheme of things) aren't nearly as important as the underlying theme...however, this just points out that, despite being God inspired, it was still written by (fallible) men...which means that the details are not necessarily trustworthy.

My point here is not to thump the Bible or get into a long drawn out debate on religion. Rather, returning to the first post in the thread, I am voicing my concern that America is turning our backs on Israel. Israel has but one ally in this world. If we step away, all will pounce on her. God said what He said. I'd prefer to not be in the goat side of that equation.

I understand. Again, I'm not questioning your faith, telling you you're absolutely unequivocally or that I'm absolutely unequivocally right...because until such time that we die, we won't really know. I also believe that our faiths are closer linked than my arguments would lend most to believe.

I don't believe we should just stand by and let Israel get pounced, but at the same time, I really am not impressed with the actions of Israel either. The religious side of me is conflicted in this argument.

HAWK
04-30-2009, 04:51 PM
I don't know why we even bother having a presence over there in the first place. I say pull out all our support and troops from the region, and let them blow each other to bits. So long as not one more American soldier is killed or dollar spent on people who'd rather see us all dead anyway.

I agree. I've never understood America's fascination with Israel.

I don't see a problem with being allies. Israel has a huge pair. Their military isn't the weak and pathetic bunch that many think they are. They're a force to be reckoned with. And good for them.

steelwall
04-30-2009, 07:30 PM
As it is, I think Israel can do just fine on her own - seems to me she's singlehandedly kicked the living shit out of her neighbors more than once.


I agree, and our American soldiers have paid a price for this. I've been in favor for a long time of stepping back and taking a good look at this alliance. An alliance should be mutualy benificial. I don't see that as the case here. If BHO wants to step back a bit from this, it is one thing I could get behind.

Vincent
04-30-2009, 07:36 PM
I don't believe we should just stand by and let Israel get pounced, but at the same time, I really am not impressed with the actions of Israel either. The religious side of me is conflicted in this argument.

I think we're singing out of the same hymnal. I'm less than impressed with Israeli "leadership". But this administration scares me @#$%less.

:drink: Vernors. An exceptional Ginger Ale.

xfl2001fan
04-30-2009, 07:41 PM
I think we're singing out of the same hymnal. I'm less than impressed with Israeli "leadership". But this administration scares me @#$%less.

:drink: Vernors. An exceptional Ginger Ale.

I can go with the Vernors. I have yet to taste a better Ginger Ale! It's not just Israel leadership though, it's their entire culture. They're every bit as messed up as the rest of the ME. Certainly they need to protect their borders...but more importantly, they need to get a firmer grasp on their own people as well. Nothing will change in the ME until such time as each of those "civilizations" (and I use that term very loosely) get a firm grasp on their own people...

Vincent
04-30-2009, 07:56 PM
I can go with the Vernors. I have yet to taste a better Ginger Ale! It's not just Israel leadership though, it's their entire culture. They're every bit as messed up as the rest of the ME. Certainly they need to protect their borders...but more importantly, they need to get a firmer grasp on their own people as well. Nothing will change in the ME until such time as each of those "civilizations" (and I use that term very loosely) get a firm grasp on their own people...

We're in violent agreement. The ME has been FUBAR since the beginning of recorded history. Its stunningly arrogant to posture that we have a clue as to how sort it. Either party. The departure with me is that we're now sideling up to the terrorists.

You know what would be a refreshing national "posture"? Put on the Marine face and say "its our damned oil. We're going to extract every damned drop. And what are you going to do about it?" At least we can agree to respect intellectual honesty. :chuckle:

steelwall
04-30-2009, 08:01 PM
I can go with the Vernors. I have yet to taste a better Ginger Ale! It's not just Israel leadership though, it's their entire culture. They're every bit as messed up as the rest of the ME. Certainly they need to protect their borders...but more importantly, they need to get a firmer grasp on their own people as well. Nothing will change in the ME until such time as each of those "civilizations" (and I use that term very loosely) get a firm grasp on their own people...

So true...

Just seems that Israel in particular has come to expect our unconditional support. They constantly anger the entire region and we are there to sweep up the mess in alot of cases.

Like fansince76 and you have mentioned.

1. Thanks to us they are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

2. They have social issues that we can't help with anyway. These issues more often than not destablize the region.

tony hipchest
04-30-2009, 08:06 PM
The ME has been FUBAR since the beginning of recorded history. Its stunningly arrogant to posture that we have a clue as to how sort it. :thumbsup: agree 100% Either party. The departure with me is that we're now sideling up to the terrorists. :huh: pretty sure we havent drawn lines in the sand.

You know what would be a refreshing national "posture"? Put on the Marine face and say "its our damned oil. :thumbsup: totally agree. We're going to extract every damned drop. And what are you going to do about it?" At least we can agree to respect intellectual honesty. :chuckle:

:yep: while we may be on different ends of the political spectrum (based on las nov. outcomes) i understand and can definitely respect that and the manner in which it was delivered.

as far as barak being the debil, i have a bobby bouche and his momma picture for you.

Vincent
04-30-2009, 08:18 PM
:yep: while we may be on different ends of the political spectrum (based on las nov. outcomes) i understand and can definitely respect that and the manner in which it was delivered.

as far as barak being the debil, i have a bobby bouche and his momma picture for you.

I'm not into the parties. They both suck. One's a bunch of ineffectual cuckolds. The others are, well, let's just leave that be. :chuckle:

No, I don't think bho is da debil. I do believe his core is satanic (alinsky, lifelong marxist associations). Words mean things. :coffee:

tony hipchest
04-30-2009, 08:36 PM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/adam_sandler12.jpg

but ma mam ma mam ma mamma always say.... barack is da debil!

republicans say democrats are the devil.

democrats say republicans are the devil.

muslims think the entire western workls is the devil.

and there are those who think that money is the root of all evil.

:hunch:

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
04-30-2009, 09:57 PM
To play devil's advocate here...answer me a few questions.

What is the Bible (in particular, reference the old testament)?
When was the bible written?
When was the King James revision written?
Who decided which books do/don't belong in the bible?
What is Christianity?
What's the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist?
Are they not both Christians?
If you're a Christian, why don't you celebrate Jewish Holidays? To be a Christian is to strive to be Christ-like (right?)...and Christ was a Jew.

For centuries, the Roman Catholic Church ruled (yes, ruled) most of Europe and used the church to crush the opposition. They used God's name like a sword, instead of the shield it was intended...and cut anybody who disagreed with any form of their beliefs. The Spanish Inquisition...hell, you could even look at Braveheart. (While the movie in and of itself isn't historically accurate, it's a great reference point into the behaviors of the church and it's officials of that time.)

If they can do that, why can't they "come up with their revisionists version? For that matter, if you're to believe the Bible at it's face value, this was going on during Jesus time as well. Note his battles with the Sadducees and Pharisees. They were constantly trying to use the scripture to undermine Him. If they were doing it then, who's to say they weren't doing it long before (and certainly long after?)

Maybe God used to favor Israel, until such time that Israel turned it's back on God? Relying on God to protect you is only going to carry you so far...especially when you aren't doing anything Godly and doing even less to protect yourself. Praying 5 times a day doesn't change the fact that you're a sinner...and if your actions are pre-meditated, it has an even less effect.

God doesn't love Israel anymore than loves Iran/Iraq/US/or any other place. He loves His people...all of them. He'll shelther those who are doing their best to live a Godly life...but even then, we are in our world, not His. His kingdom is Heaven. This place, this is our chance to prove to ourselves whether there is enough in us to be judged worthy. Whether you were born/raised in Israel will not have any bearing on your Judgement. How you acted within your environment will.

If this has rained on your parade, I apologize...it's not my intent. But the moment you bring scripture into things, (all of which was written by Man) I have to call you into account.

Hummmm..... Maybe if we just take away religion then everyone will stop fighting. Becasue afterall, it seems most wars revolve around religion afterall..... Does religion lead to all that is evil?

xfl2001fan
04-30-2009, 10:01 PM
Hummmm..... Maybe if we just take away religion then everyone will stop fighting. Becasue afterall, it seems most wars revolve around religion afterall..... Does religion lead to all that is evil?

That is a gross misrepresentation and oversimplification. Religion doesn't lead to war. Idiotic zealots lead to war. Radical extremists (no matter which "side" they are on) lead to war.

Whatever God(s) you choose to (or not to) worship, I have serious reservations that He/She/They could possibly desire the taking of an innocent's life...no matter their differences.

But good luck with that getting rid of religion bit. Try doing that...and you'll find yourself in an even greater war.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
04-30-2009, 10:11 PM
That is a gross misrepresentation and oversimplification. Religion doesn't lead to war. Idiotic zealots lead to war. Radical extremists (no matter which "side" they are on) lead to war.

Whatever God(s) you choose to (or not to) worship, I have serious reservations that He/She/They could possibly desire the taking of an innocent's life...no matter their differences.

But good luck with that getting rid of religion bit. Try doing that...and you'll find yourself in an even greater war.

Im not personlly saying to get rid of religion I was just putting the question out there and just pointing out that most if not all wars revolve around religion.... be it radical extremist or not............

JEFF4i
04-30-2009, 10:15 PM
Im not personlly saying to get rid of religion I was just putting the question out there and just pointing out that most if not all wars revolve around religion.... be it radical extremist or not............

Getting rid of religion won't change anything. You're calling scapegoat here, its just been such a consistent motivation that we think that it is the real reason. It isn't.

That said, I'm still flamingly liberal and if anything...Doaist. :)

xfl2001fan
04-30-2009, 10:21 PM
Im not personlly saying to get rid of religion I was just putting the question out there and just pointing out that most if not all wars revolve around religion.... be it radical extremist or not............

Even if you could get rid of religion, radical extremists would just find another justification for their petty wars. The world is chock full of idiots...religion doesn't change that. It just gives them a voice.

Vincent
05-01-2009, 04:33 AM
Hummmm..... Maybe if we just take away religion then everyone will stop fighting. Becasue afterall, it seems most wars revolve around religion afterall..... Does religion lead to all that is evil?

Im not personlly saying to get rid of religion I was just putting the question out there and just pointing out that most if not all wars revolve around religion.... be it radical extremist or not............

Once again, public school has done its job well. What wars revolved around religion? Aside from the crusades, none comes to mind.

OK, the one we're in does. Religious zealots highjacked our airplanes and flew them into our buildings. Then Booosh declared that the global war on terror had begun and seized the iraqi oil fields and a bunch of "freedom fighters" got killed in the process. But that's not a war because once we got rid of Booosh it became the "Overseas Contingency Operation".

Oh, and of course there have been the various genocides in Africa over the last half century. But those weren't wars. Just a bunch of Christians being starved, shot or hacked to death.

What religious wars do you speak of?

Vincent
05-01-2009, 07:21 AM
http://www.vtcommons.org/files/images/BOasDevil.jpg

Sorry. I couldn't resist ("resist" :rofl:) :chuckle:

There are some really creative folks "oud-dare".

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 08:22 AM
Once again, public school has done its job well. What wars revolved around religion? Aside from the crusades, none comes to mind.

OK, the one we're in does. Religious zealots highjacked our airplanes and flew them into our buildings. Then Booosh declared that the global war on terror had begun and seized the iraqi oil fields and a bunch of "freedom fighters" got killed in the process. But that's not a war because once we got rid of Booosh it became the "Overseas Contingency Operation".

Oh, and of course there have been the various genocides in Africa over the last half century. But those weren't wars. Just a bunch of Christians being starved, shot or hacked to death.

What religious wars do you speak of?

Even then, you could stretch the lines and say that the Gulf War and the current war is tied to religion. You could really stretch it and say that WWII was tied to religion (Hitler hated Jews). Even the American Revolution had religious ties (in that if it weren't for their desire to have freedom of religion, on top of the whole taxation w/o representation, there might not have been a war.)

Almost every fight/battle/war in the ME can be indirectly (if not directly) tied to religious zealots.

At the end of the day though, I stand by my words. The idiots that are at the source of all of this would find something else (if not religion) in which to pin their hate on and cause their trouble.

revefsreleets
05-01-2009, 08:42 AM
By the by, we are not allies with Israel over oil. We are allies with Israel because:

A) We need allies in that part of the World regardless
B) The US has a HUGE Jewish population...if I'm not mistaken (and, Christ, I'm sure one of my internet stalkers will do the research and throw it back in my face if I am, thereby adding to their phyrric victory total), there are more Jews living in the US than any other Country outside of Israel.

The partnership with Israel is a strategic one, not a tactical one. We have been and NEED TO continue to be allies with Israel for our own good as well as theirs.

There is no doubt that Obama has changed our policy towards Israel, but I don't believe he's stupid enough to damage it irreparably.

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 10:01 AM
So cute, you have internet stalkers too!!!! :hug:

revefsreleets
05-01-2009, 11:44 AM
Stalker #1, c'mon down!

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
05-01-2009, 11:58 AM
Once again, public school has done its job well. What wars revolved around religion? Aside from the crusades, none comes to mind.

OK, the one we're in does. Religious zealots highjacked our airplanes and flew them into our buildings. Then Booosh declared that the global war on terror had begun and seized the iraqi oil fields and a bunch of "freedom fighters" got killed in the process. But that's not a war because once we got rid of Booosh it became the "Overseas Contingency Operation".

Oh, and of course there have been the various genocides in Africa over the last half century. But those weren't wars. Just a bunch of Christians being starved, shot or hacked to death.

What religious wars do you speak of?

Well... Lets look at Iraq..... 2 religious groups hate eachother?
Afghanistan? Muslim extreamist?
Hitler? WWII???
Every war revolves in someway around religion.....

Vincent
05-01-2009, 12:31 PM
Well... Lets look at Iraq..... 2 religious groups hate eachother?
Afghanistan? Muslim extreamist?
Hitler? WWII???
Every war revolves in someway around religion.....

Rather an obtuse statement.

Iraq was a secular state before we removed saddam. It is currently a republic. You are correct that several religious factions inside Iraq go at it. And some Americans are "religious". But the war we call "the Iraq war" was the invasion of one secular state by another for (pick a) reason.

One side of the war in Afghanistan are religious extremists. I'll give you that one.

WWII is what happens when we allow socialist regimes to establish too much power. A lot of "religious" people from many walks of life perished. But I have never heard anyone suggest that WWII revolved around religion.

WWI? Spanish-American war? Franco-Prussian war? Civil war? War of 1812? Revolution? French & Indian war? 100 years war? Norman invasion of England? Nope.

The 30 year war and the Crusades I'll give you.

Most of the "war" currently underway involves muslims exterminating non-muslims or secular states corralling said muslims. The problem would seem to be practitioners of the "religion of peace" rather than the other 6 billion inhabitants of Earth that actually practice their "religions" in peace.

Vincent
05-01-2009, 01:13 PM
By the by, we are not allies with Israel over oil. We are allies with Israel because:

A) We need allies in that part of the World regardless
B) The US has a HUGE Jewish population...if I'm not mistaken (and, Christ, I'm sure one of my internet stalkers will do the research and throw it back in my face if I am, thereby adding to their phyrric victory total), there are more Jews living in the US than any other Country outside of Israel.

The partnership with Israel is a strategic one, not a tactical one. We have been and NEED TO continue to be allies with Israel for our own good as well as theirs.

There is no doubt that Obama has changed our policy towards Israel, but I don't believe he's stupid enough to damage it irreparably.

Agree entirely with all except why bho is doing this.

I believe his muslimness (like Guatemalaness :toofunny:) is driving this. He said steadfastly that he'd coo up to our enemies. His global embarrassment tour validated it. In these changes in our support of Israel, he is materially strengthening the hands of her enemies, while materially weakening her ability to defend herself. That isn't stupidity. That's design.

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 01:28 PM
Maybe god will give the Jews a new place to call Israel. I got news for you, when we are done with oil, Israel will be on her own. The ole clock is ticking on Israel.

2 pages later and nary a mention of oil....

By the by, we are not allies with Israel over oil. We are allies with Israel because:

A) We need allies in that part of the World regardless
B) The US has a HUGE Jewish population...if I'm not mistaken (and, Christ, I'm sure one of my internet stalkers will do the research and throw it back in my face if I am, thereby adding to their phyrric victory total), there are more Jews living in the US than any other Country outside of Israel.

The partnership with Israel is a strategic one, not a tactical one. We have been and NEED TO continue to be allies with Israel for our own good as well as theirs.

There is no doubt that Obama has changed our policy towards Israel, but I don't believe he's stupid enough to damage it irreparably.

So cute, you have internet stalkers too!!!! :hug:

Stalker #1, c'mon down!

Sweet. Simple. Irony.

revefsreleets
05-01-2009, 03:29 PM
You're getting angry, aren't you?

SteelersinCA
05-01-2009, 04:56 PM
Nah, I love proving you wrong and watching you scurry behind your "I don't really care" excuse. Pitiful. I feel sorry for you.

drewcary
05-01-2009, 05:00 PM
I'm still waiting for him to produce a birth certificate.

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 06:17 PM
I'm still waiting for him to produce a birth certificate.

We're still waiting on you to produce a birth certificate.

I don't know where you get that you have the right to that sort of private information, but you clearly have some serious issues.

tony hipchest
05-01-2009, 07:23 PM
We're still waiting on you to produce a birth certificate.

I don't know where you get that you have the right to that sort of private information, but you clearly have some serious issues.

hey... ease up. he's just a lil' ol' confused brownsfan.

:doh: oh wait....

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 08:05 PM
hey... ease up. he's just a lil' ol' confused brownsfan.

:doh: oh wait....

I used to like you Tony. Not really, but since that's my line, I gotta keep using it. :flap:

tony hipchest
05-01-2009, 08:21 PM
I used to like you Tony. Not really, but since that's my line, I gotta keep using it. :flap:

:laughing:

"CLEVELAND ROCKS, CLEVELAND ROCKS, CLEEEVELAAND ROOOOOOOOOOOCKS!"

(we have a version of that song but "rocks" is replaced with "sucks") :flap:

:busted:

xfl2001fan
05-01-2009, 08:46 PM
:laughing:

"CLEVELAND ROCKS, CLEVELAND ROCKS, CLEEEVELAAND ROOOOOOOOOOOCKS!"

(we have a version of that song but "rocks" is replaced with "sucks") :flap:

:busted:

I've heard that version...I wasn't impressed. I practically lived in Coraopolis (sp?) for quite some time. I was there at least once a month for about 10 months straight...and generally it was for 3-4 days at a time.

Then again, a lot of the locals knew me in a couple of the Steelers bars they had in town...especially since I showed up with my Browns jersey on every visit.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
05-01-2009, 10:45 PM
And even if Obama was muslim....which he isnt....but even if he was.... what would that matter..... who are you to judge an american citizen that has a different religion than yours?

revefsreleets
05-02-2009, 06:56 AM
Nah, I love proving you wrong and watching you scurry behind your "I don't really care" excuse. Pitiful. I feel sorry for you.

Proving me wrong? Scurrying? What silly delusions of grandeur you suffer from...

There is nothing here refuting my assertions. You haven't produced a single fact or argument against anything I said in my post. All you did was point out that I had ONE LINE which shut down your entire (pointless and wrong) line of reasoning that somehow the US support for Israel was oil based.

In essence, Jeremy Jr, you are trying to dissect an entire sound and logical argument by saying "No, I'm right and you're wrong".

You'll have to do better than that or I really WILL start ignoring you, which is a fate worse than death for an attention w hore.....

xfl2001fan
05-02-2009, 08:03 AM
And even if Obama was muslim....which he isnt....but even if he was.... what would that matter..... who are you to judge an american citizen that has a different religion than yours?

At least quote someone so that we know which portion of the conversation you are referring to.

As for whether he is a Muslim or not...how would you know? If it's based on something he said...he also said that the Wiretapping program was reprehensible and he would shut it down.

100+ days into the Presidancy... :tap:

SteelersinCA
05-02-2009, 08:14 AM
Proving me wrong? Scurrying? What silly delusions of grandeur you suffer from...

There is nothing here refuting my assertions. You haven't produced a single fact or argument against anything I said in my post. All you did was point out that I had ONE LINE which shut down your entire (pointless and wrong) line of reasoning that somehow the US support for Israel was oil based.

In essence, Jeremy Jr, you are trying to dissect an entire sound and logical argument by saying "No, I'm right and you're wrong".

You'll have to do better than that or I really WILL start ignoring you, which is a fate worse than death for an attention w hore.....

Oh please no, say it isn't so!!!!!!!!! :rofl:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/oil/2004/1007supports.htm

"- Conclusion

The primary motives behind U.S. support of Israel can be explained by Washington's foreign policy aims of securing a Middle East capable of producing a stable supply of oil at a low price that buoys the economies of oil dependent countries. Israel, a state that is dependent on the United States due to its strategic and cultural isolation in a region that is hostile to its existence, can be relied on by Washington to assist in maintaining the status quo by preventing any Middle Eastern country from accruing enough power to alter the regional balance in a way that would damage the interests of the United States and other oil dependent countries."

Honestly, you really should consider that ignore button, if only they had a shut mouth button for you, oh wait, you just pulled your arguments off the top of your head without any real research cause you don't care that much right? Right? Got it. Carry on loser. :wave: :rofl:

Vincent
05-02-2009, 09:08 AM
And even if Obama was muslim....which he isnt....but even if he was.... what would that matter..... who are you to judge an american citizen that has a different religion than yours?

Who is judging? I specifically stated no religious affiliation and have made no statement that would indicate a religious point of view. For all you know, I'm a muslim woman.

Quoting scripture? Anybody can quote scripture. Hell, da debil quotes scripture. So, to me, I don't go by what people say. I go by what they do.

This thread is about what bho is doing, and observations thereof.. And to your point, the reason his being muslim would matter is because if he were muslim his view of the world, and specifically Israel, might lead him to make decisions like the ones he's making.

Once baraka hussien obama (that is his given name) produces documentation that he is a citizen and a court accepts it, then we can acknowledge him as a citizen. Until then it remains an issue that quite frankly he should have dealt with immediately.

Every war revolves in someway around religion.....

I eagerly await further commentary on your earlier observation.

xfl2001fan
05-02-2009, 10:08 AM
I eagerly await further commentary on your earlier observation.

Don't hold your breath.

HometownGal
05-02-2009, 12:58 PM
This thread is about what bho is doing, and observations thereof.. And to your point, the reason his being muslim would matter is because if he were muslim his view of the world, and specifically Israel, might lead him to make decisions like the ones he's making.

:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

revefsreleets
05-02-2009, 04:09 PM
Oh please no, say it isn't so!!!!!!!!! :rofl:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/oil/2004/1007supports.htm

"- Conclusion

The primary motives behind U.S. support of Israel can be explained by Washington's foreign policy aims of securing a Middle East capable of producing a stable supply of oil at a low price that buoys the economies of oil dependent countries. Israel, a state that is dependent on the United States due to its strategic and cultural isolation in a region that is hostile to its existence, can be relied on by Washington to assist in maintaining the status quo by preventing any Middle Eastern country from accruing enough power to alter the regional balance in a way that would damage the interests of the United States and other oil dependent countries."

Honestly, you really should consider that ignore button, if only they had a shut mouth button for you, oh wait, you just pulled your arguments off the top of your head without any real research cause you don't care that much right? Right? Got it. Carry on loser. :wave: :rofl:


Dude, you cited Erich Marquadt. He's one guy...and not an expert in anything. This is akin to posting a wiki article you contributed to and edited the Hell out of. The website he works for is totally obscure. You might as well have cited yourself.

Again, try harder, Jeremy...you're getting a C for effort, but a D- for content here...I can see your composure cracking. You're starting in with the personal attacks (which is how all you guys end up, and I've seen a lot of you over the years). You'll get more and more frustrated and more and more abrasive while your actual arguments get weaker and weaker until you just end up living in "ad hominem land".

Tedious.

I'll give you a homework assignment. Read up on Albert Einstein's role in establishing an Israeli state. Come back after studying that and tell me how big of a role oil played in HIS decision to actively work for Israel.

Erich Marquadt. Jeesh...

tony hipchest
05-02-2009, 04:47 PM
in reference to the nfl moving the jets game on the jewish day of atonement, i heard on th radio that NYC has a larger jewish population than israels 3 largest cities combined. i wouldnt be suprised if there were more jews in america than isreal.

which begs the questions.... if the jews supposedly own and run all of our leftist media, and our supposed muslim president is supposedly turning his back on and foresaking them while making love with her enemies, why are they treating him so favorably?

all these conspiracy theorys just arent adding up.

anyways on a sidenote, there are more polish people living in chicago than warsaw.

SteelersinCA
05-02-2009, 06:25 PM
You'll have to do better than that or I really WILL start ignoring you, which is a fate worse than death for an attention w hore.....

You're starting in with the personal attacks (which is how all you guys end up, and I've seen a lot of you over the years). You'll get more and more frustrated and more and more abrasive while your actual arguments get weaker and weaker until you just end up living in "ad hominem land".







Funny, more irony :thumbsup:

The greatest part about this is that I never made a delineation between a tactical or strategical position with regard to Israel and oil. However, you are so quick to disagree with me you just assume I meant tactical. Regardless, whether it is tactical or strategical, as you suggest, it's still about oil.

The U.S. is in the middle east because as Eisenhower said it is one of the most strategically important areas in the world. Why is that? Maybe they have superior sand to our deserts? :noidea: Maybe it's because they have a shit ton of oil??? DING DING DING, we have a winner!!! So we spend one third of our total foreign aid to have an ally there. An ally in the most strategically important place sounds like a good idea to me.

You too apparently...

The partnership with Israel is a strategic one, not a tactical one. We have been and NEED TO continue to be allies with Israel for our own good as well as theirs.

And why do we need to be allies with Israel? Oil. Oil. Oil.

Personally, I'd rather get off the oil and get the rest of the world off it while maintaining our alliance with Israel; the countries in the middle east like Iran and all the rest of the haters will dry up because they build palaces and other BS instead of spending their riches on infrastructure and education. Then they will cease to have money and cease to be a threat.

You should really try not being so angry and spiteful, I'm sure your mother raised you better. We aren't really disagreeing about this unless you say oil is not the basis for the strategic significance of the area, but for whatever reason you hate so you nit-pick and make assumptions. Carry on with the hatred! :hug:

Maybe a Jewish source will satisfy you? http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=376&PID=1851&IID=517

Lots of strategic talk, must be good sand. :wink02:

revefsreleets
05-03-2009, 10:56 AM
There was oil in the Middle East LONG before the US was so instrumental in helping form the modern Israel. We have had allies there before. We have had other allies along the way. We have other allies there now.

Or are you suggesting that we only started using petroleum in 1948? In fact, if you'd bother to read anything about it, there was extreme resistance to forming an alliance from the start with Israel because the relationship actually JEOPARDIZES our relationship with oil pumping Arab nations. So an arguments could be made that not only are you off, but you are dead wrong. But I won't go there because it's a complex relationship and oil did start to take on a role in it over time...

Bottom line, Jeremy, is you are offering a super simple explanation for an extremely complex relationship, which doesn't surprise me, but I think it's interesting that you won't be moved off your position.

I'm wondering, are you capable of learning about things you clearly have limited knowledge about, are you just banking on the (cough cough) "fact" that you already know everything?

And are you capable of typing a reply to me without some kind of cut or personal attack in it? It would seem not...

SteelersinCA
05-03-2009, 02:03 PM
Bottom line, Jeremy, is you are offering a super simple explanation for an extremely complex relationship, which doesn't surprise me, but I think it's interesting that you won't be moved off your position.

I'm wondering, are you capable of learning about things you clearly have limited knowledge about, are you just banking on the (cough cough) "fact" that you already know everything?

And are you capable of typing a reply to me without some kind of cut or personal attack in it? It would seem not...

Again, the irony is astounding. It's about the only thing about your posts that actually is. Oh and the humor you provide!

What's the strategic, as you suggest, reason for the alliance if not oil? You can lace it with as much vitriol and personal insults as you wish and then say I can't respond without it, it would be par for the course with your posts.

Bottom line is we are in the Middle East because of it's important strategic value, i.e. 2/3rds of the world's oil. Any relationship forged over there, be it Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc, is to improve our strategic position.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3865983

"As World War II ended, the United States became the great outside power in the Middle East, with three main concerns: Persian Gulf oil; support and protection of the new nation of Israel; and containment of the Soviet Union...Oil has always been the U.S.'s first priority in the Middle East. President Franklin Roosevelt discussed oil when he met with the Saudi king, Abdul Aziz ibn Saud, just before the close of World War II.

In case you poo-poo the NPR article (cause don't blame you, you voted for McCain) here's an article saying the same thing from the Cato Institute, I'm sure they meet your favor.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1019

"After 70 years of broken Western promises regarding Arab independence, it should not be surprising that the West is viewed with suspicion and hostility by the populations (as opposed to some of the political regimes) of the Middle East.[3] The United States, as the heir to British imperialism in the region, has been a frequent object of suspicion. Since the end of World War II, the United States, like the European colonial powers before it, has been unable to resist becoming entangled in the region's political conflicts. Driven by a desire to keep the vast oil reserves in hands friendly to the United States, a wish to keep out potential rivals (such as the Soviet Union), opposition to neutrality in the cold war, and domestic political considerations, the United States has compiled a record of tragedy in the Middle East."


It is simple, we are in the Middle East because of oil. You apparently are the only one who disagrees with that. Any relationship that flows from that presence is guided by the principle of advancing our strategic interest in the oil.

I know it must be difficult to acknowledge I'm right or to, heaven forbid, agree with me, so I won't ask you to. Just keep hating, keep pretending it's me throwing out personal insults, keep pretending as if you don't care, or that I bore you. I assume Jeremy is some guy you had run ins with in the past on the forum and you are likening him to me. I love it when people use the "I've been on this board longer than you" argument. After all you've seen many come and go through the years, right? Must be a long 2 years since you've been on the board. Next will it be I have more posts than you? Ahh how the "mighty" have fallen. Should we call you pot or kettle? :drink:

revefsreleets
05-04-2009, 08:25 AM
Saying "neener neener neener" does nothing here, so I'll ignore the childish petulant nonsense (not to mention the didantic nature of your posts) and get straight to the flaws in your argument:

You are a one trick pony. Israel and the US are strategic parntners in every sense, and OIL IS ONLY A SMALL PART OF THAT PARTNERSHIP, and certainly had nothing to do with the original formation of the alliance. I'll repeat, leading up to '48, the US was afraid that backing a Zionist State would alienate our relationships with the oil producing nations, which is the exact opposite of what you are asserting. In fact, that relationship DID strain our existing partnerships with Arab states. We took the path of MOST resistence and formed an alliance with Israel IN SPITE of oil, not because of it. You keep using sources about the Middle East in general and then try to shoehorn Israel into those arguments, and the two are not only seperate, they are, in many ways, complete opposites.

You are basically saying that Israel is only valuable to us because it is located close to oil, but that's simply not true. We have a complex and interdependent economic partnership with them. We have a huge Jewish population in the states. Israel is a secular democracy, and, as such, is a natural ally to the US REGARDLESS of it's geographic location.

Look up how much we export to Israel, especially agriculturally. Look up BIRD, TRIDE, USISTC. We have a lot of acedemic connections with Israel (See: BSF, BARD, IALC). Even individual states have close ties with Israel...Hell, my own mayor was over there trying to get Israeli companies to invest in Akron (and he succeeded).

It's quite humorous to watch you myopically argue simply because you feel the need to defend your original (incorrect) argument, then thump your chest and rejoice in a meaningless "victory", but the bottom line is you are wrong. The strategic alliance between the US and Israel began, is, and will continue to be MUCH more than just oil. It's cultural, political, scientific, academic and economic.

I'll give you a quote. When Soviet Premier Aleksei Kosygin asked LBJ why the US had and maintained such strong ties with Isael when there were only 3 million Jews and 80 millions Arabs in the region, LBJ simply answered "Because it is right".

SteelersinCA
05-04-2009, 08:58 AM
I never said there weren't other reasons for the alliance, certainly there are, but what you've done, in your desperate fascination with disagreeing with me, is confuse the issue:

Maybe god will give the Jews a new place to call Israel. I got news for you, when we are done with oil, Israel will be on her own. The ole clock is ticking on Israel.

By the by, we are not allies with Israel over oil. We are allies with Israel because:

At least in the last 2 posts you acknowledge oil is a part of that alliance. I don't care about why we started our alliance with them, through a series of missteps and because the Middle East is a cesspool of historic hatred, Israel has become a more and more important ally because of the growing disdain of Western civilization and our need for balance in the region. We have even *gasp* disagreed and left Israel on her own on occasion to create that balance.

It's only natural that other minor alliances would sprout up, but again, I'm not denying those. The main and most important reason we are in the Middle East is because of oil. Everything that flows from our presence there is an attempt to remain in control. That was all I was saying. But back to your original reply to my post:

A) We need allies in that part of the World regardless Why do we need allies there? We want to control the area because of its significant strategic value and most everyone over there hates us.

B) The US has a HUGE Jewish population...if I'm not mistaken (and, Christ, I'm sure one of my internet stalkers will do the research and throw it back in my face if I am, thereby adding to their phyrric victory total), there are more Jews living in the US than any other Country outside of Israel. I assume this is a reference to the Jewish Lobby, which is a reasonable argument but still pales in comparison to the strategic value of the region.

The partnership with Israel is a strategic one, not a tactical one. We have been and NEED TO continue to be allies with Israel for our own good as well as theirs. Why? Cause giving up control of a valuable strategic asset (oil) would be bad.


You see, if you weren't so angry, it's pretty clear we weren't that far off. The bold is my assumed answers, I figure you got that.

You are basically saying that Israel is only valuable to us because it is located close to oil, but that's simply not true. We have a complex and interdependent economic partnership with them. We have a huge Jewish population in the states. Israel is a secular democracy, and, as such, is a natural ally to the US REGARDLESS of it's geographic location.

I never said it is only valuable because of oil, I contend that is the overriding and greatest proportion of that value. I also provided a source to say our #1 priority there is oil.

It's quite humorous to watch you myopically argue then thump your chest, rejoicing in a meaningless "victory", but the bottom line is you are wrong. The strategic alliance between the US and Israel began, is, and will continue to be MUCH more than just oil. It's cultural, political, scientific, academic and economic.

I find it humorous one negative comment about OSU has you so ravenously disagreeing with me all over these boards. Our presence in the Middle East is about the oil, the rest is the proverbial icing on the cake. I don't think that is much of a stretch, although I'm sure you will nit pick it or now contend you are bored.

Final note, look at all the big words you're throwing out! I guess this doesn't qualify as a "cut or personal attack" in your view, huh?

Saying "neener neener neener" does nothing here, so I'll ignore the childish petulant nonsense (not to mention the didantic nature of your posts) and get straight to the flaws in your argument:

I think you meant didactic there professor; ya get what you give Rev.

revefsreleets
05-04-2009, 09:02 AM
(Spelling smack again? Wow...just wow...)

Here, try this.

If we WEREN'T allies with Israel, our alliances with oil producing countries would be easier to maintain.

Will you agree with that?

SteelersinCA
05-04-2009, 09:11 AM
(Spelling smack again? Wow...just wow...)

Here, try this.

If we WEREN'T allies with Israel, our alliances with oil producing countries would be easier to maintain.

Will you agree with that?

I was hoping you brought that up. No I won't agree with that. As I mentioned previously the Middle East is a cesspool of historic hatred dating back to long before the US was in existence. Having a solid ally there is a good thing. The countries over tehre, save Israel are fickle in there allegiances.

Let me expand your scenario for a moment. Israel is gone, so we have Kuwait , a waning presence in Iraq, a sort of ally in Saudi Arabia and a growing ass itch in Iran and Syria. What happens if Saudi Arabia turns on us, or shuts us down for military operations? We launch everything from Kuwait? Kuwait doesn't have the ability to stand up for itself like Israel does. That scenario only gets worse over time.

I agree your supposition should make logical sense, but there is historically nothing logical about the Middle East other than war and fighting. I think a solid consistent ally over there is crucial to maintaining balance, especially at this point.

Fair enough?

revefsreleets
05-04-2009, 09:22 AM
No, but we'll leave that one there.

Second one.

The US would be a strong supporter of Israel is it was loacted in the Carribean?

SteelersinCA
05-04-2009, 09:51 AM
We'd be an ally yes, would we give them as much financial and military support, no we wouldn't need to. Additionally I don't think they would need us as much either, would be hard for the Arabs to hate them for taking land they thought rightfully belonged to them if they weren't actually occupying it.

You can ask whatever you want in one post, I'll be happy to explain myself to you in a non confrontational and non condescending manner as long as you do the same. It's much easier and enjoyable that way, this pissing contest grows tiresome.

Edit: I don't want to get hyper technical but what do you mean strong supporter? I think we would be as strong a supporter as any other Caribbean nation we are allied with.