PDA

View Full Version : Ben is the 2nd most clutch QB


The_WARDen
05-19-2009, 09:18 AM
Hopefully, this will make some people happy if you care about these silly rankings.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/The-Shutdown-Five-Most-clutch-quarterbacks-in-t;_ylt=Ato5PyflT1yFLyIs4rPhSj1DubYF?urn=nfl,164119

Detective
05-19-2009, 09:33 AM
Excuse me fellas.. I'm gonna go pop in Super Bowl XLII so I can see how clutch Tom Brady is.

Stat Padding =/= being clutch.

..sorry, I just really hate Brady.. and I honestly disagree with him being #1 on that list. The title of that article was "Most clutch quarterbacks in the NFL today" What has Brady done recently to show that he's clutch? He wasn't even playing last season and the year before that he blew it when it mattered against the Giants. The year before that he blew it when it mattered against the Colts. The year before that he blew it when it mattered against Broncos. Meanwhile, Ben's play recently has been the definition of the word clutch.

Don't get me wrong. What Tom Brady did to get his 3 rings is impressive, but this a "what have you done for me recently?" league, and Brady has in no way showed that he can still deliver when the chips are down and Adam Vinatieri is on another team.

fansince'76
05-19-2009, 09:59 AM
....Brady has in no way showed that he can still deliver when the chips are down and Adam Vinatieri is on another team....

....or when he isn't being fed the opponent's illegally-obtained defensive signals....

Steel Head
05-19-2009, 10:03 AM
Big Ben's game winning Super Bowl drive blows away anything Brady has done in the Super Bowl

fansince'76
05-19-2009, 10:08 AM
Big Ben's game winning Super Bowl drive blows away anything Brady has done in the Super Bowl

Blasphemy! Those last-minute desperation heaves to Moss in SB XLII were the absolute epitome of clutch! Not to mention this:

AzCLZPMBeDM

And that pick he threw to lose the '06 AFCCG after relinquishing an 18-point lead? I mean, just EPIC! Tommy-Boy is the dreamiest! He's the bestest, most wonderfulest QB in the history of the universe!

:yawn:

SteelersMongol
05-19-2009, 10:32 AM
....or when he isn't being fed the opponent's illegally-obtained defensive signals....

WORD! :sign11:

El-Gonzo Jackson
05-19-2009, 10:37 AM
Sorry folks...if I take off the B&G colored glasses, I still can see how Brady has done more than Ben and deserves higher praise.

As a "football fan" I still regard guys like Elway, Montana, Marino, Bradshaw, Staubach, as better QB's, but Brady and Manning are close in the 2nd group and Ben trails those guys.....but remember, he is still young and hopefully still improving.

fansince'76
05-19-2009, 11:01 AM
Sorry folks...if I take off the B&G colored glasses, I still can see how Brady has done more than Ben and deserves higher praise.

As a "football fan" I still regard guys like Elway, Montana, Marino, Bradshaw, Staubach, as better QB's, but Brady and Manning are close in the 2nd group and Ben trails those guys.....but remember, he is still young and hopefully still improving.

It wasn't a list of who's "best," it was a list of the most "clutch," which is completely different. I suppose Brady moving the Pats 20-30 yards into FG range so Vinatieri, who is as money a big-game kicker as it gets, could boot not one, but two 40-yard+ game-winners in the SB was somehow more "clutch" than what Ben did in the latest SB? I beg to differ. And Peyton Manning, for all the gaudy stats he puts up during the regular season that make all the fantasy football geeks cream their jeans, is anything BUT a "clutch" performer in the postseason, which is when the "clutch factor" matters the most and doesn't belong on that list at all. Same goes for McNabb. Accuse me of being a Kool-Aid sipping homer, but at the moment, if I need a TD (not a FG, a TD) to win the game with 2 minutes left in the 4th, I'm taking Ben.

steelreserve
05-19-2009, 11:08 AM
I suppose Brady moving the Pats 20-30 yards into FG range so Vinatieri, who is as money a big-game kicker as it gets, could boot not one, but two 40-yard+ game-winners in the SB was somehow more "clutch" than what Ben did in the latest SB?

I was about to say something like "driving 20 yards so you can run down the clock and kick a field goal on the last play of the game sure counts as performing under pressure, and that kind of heart-stopping suspense is exactly what I love about the NFL." Unfortunately, you beat me to it. Although I have to deduct a few style points for praising Vinatieri. If you'd called him a homo, your response would've been perfect.

mulldog24
05-19-2009, 12:03 PM
It wasn't a list of who's "best," it was a list of the most "clutch," which is completely different. I suppose Brady moving the Pats 20-30 yards into FG range so Vinatieri, who is as money a big-game kicker as it gets, could boot not one, but two 40-yard+ game-winners in the SB was somehow more "clutch" than what Ben did in the latest SB? I beg to differ. And Peyton Manning, for all the gaudy stats he puts up during the regular season that make all the fantasy football geeks cream their jeans, is anything BUT a "clutch" performer in the postseason, which is when the "clutch factor" matters the most and doesn't belong on that list at all. Same goes for McNabb. Accuse me of being a Kool-Aid sipping homer, but at the moment, if I need a TD (not a FG, a TD) to win the game with 2 minutes left in the 4th, I'm taking Ben.

You just said it all,nothing more needs to be said!!!!!!:drink::tt03:

El-Gonzo Jackson
05-19-2009, 12:11 PM
It wasn't a list of who's "best," it was a list of the most "clutch," which is completely different. I suppose Brady moving the Pats 20-30 yards into FG range so Vinatieri, who is as money a big-game kicker as it gets, could boot not one, but two 40-yard+ game-winners in the SB was somehow more "clutch" than what Ben did in the latest SB? I beg to differ. And Peyton Manning, for all the gaudy stats he puts up during the regular season that make all the fantasy football geeks cream their jeans, is anything BUT a "clutch" performer in the postseason, which is when the "clutch factor" matters the most and doesn't belong on that list at all. Same goes for McNabb. Accuse me of being a Kool-Aid sipping homer, but at the moment, if I need a TD (not a FG, a TD) to win the game with 2 minutes left in the 4th, I'm taking Ben.

I know, but the idea of hating on Brady, only because he is a Patriot is so biased that I think its a disservice to football fans. Also, I dislike the idea of only judging guys on Super Bowl games.......but forgetting everything else they did to get there.

If David Tyree doesnt catch a hail mary off his head and subsequently Ellis Hobbs have to watch Burress catch that TD.....then Brady owns the game winning drive of a perfect season. I cant discredit a guy for not winning a super bowl because his defense couldnt stop anybody.

In 2008 Ben has a season of mediocre performances, with several acts of 4th quarter heroics because his defense kept him close AND wins the Super Bowl. In 2007 Brady has a season for the ages and wins 17 games and delivers what should be a SB winning TD, but his defense cant stop the Giants with 3 min left and he is suddenly less clutch?? :noidea:

steeldawg
05-19-2009, 12:14 PM
When Ben's career is over i dont think we will even have to debate this . hes already accomplished so much and i see alot more to come

fansince'76
05-19-2009, 12:15 PM
I know, but the idea of hating on Brady, only because he is a Patriot is so biased that I think its a disservice to football fans.

Maybe, but it sure is fun! :chuckle:

Also, I dislike the idea of only judging guys on Super Bowl games.......but forgetting everything else they did to get there.

If David Tyree doesnt catch a hail mary off his head and subsequently Ellis Hobbs have to watch Burress catch that TD.....then Brady owns the game winning drive of a perfect season. I cant discredit a guy for not winning a super bowl because his defense couldnt stop anybody.

In 2008 Ben has a season of mediocre performances, with several acts of 4th quarter heroics because his defense kept him close AND wins the Super Bowl. In 2007 Brady has a season for the ages and wins 17 games and delivers what should be a SB winning TD, but his defense cant stop the Giants with 3 min left and he is suddenly less clutch?? :noidea:

Valid points - I guess "clutch" isn't the easiest quality to define to begin with. :drink:

revefsreleets
05-19-2009, 12:25 PM
With the emergence of "Air Cassel" (i.e. clearly a super QB-friendly system up in NE), and the impetus of the whole cheating thing creating changes in how the Pat's operate, I think I'd like to see a season or two of Brady operating on alevel playing field before I crown him the king of clutch.

El-Gonzo Jackson
05-19-2009, 12:28 PM
Maybe, but it sure is fun! :chuckle:



Valid points - I guess "clutch" isn't the easiest quality to define to begin with. :drink:

True, but I have to wonder where Favre ranks on that list. Its not like is REALLY retired anyways:wink:

wootawnee
05-19-2009, 01:12 PM
It wasn't a list of who's "best," it was a list of the most "clutch," which is completely different. I suppose Brady moving the Pats 20-30 yards into FG range so Vinatieri, who is as money a big-game kicker as it gets, could boot not one, but two 40-yard+ game-winners in the SB was somehow more "clutch" than what Ben did in the latest SB? I beg to differ. And Peyton Manning, for all the gaudy stats he puts up during the regular season that make all the fantasy football geeks cream their jeans, is anything BUT a "clutch" performer in the postseason, which is when the "clutch factor" matters the most and doesn't belong on that list at all. Same goes for McNabb. Accuse me of being a Kool-Aid sipping homer, but at the moment, if I need a TD (not a FG, a TD) to win the game with 2 minutes left in the 4th, I'm taking Ben.

Amen My Brother.............

BlastFurnace
05-19-2009, 01:55 PM
Brady and Ben are the best clutch QB's in the league. I'm not going to argue who is more clutch...I'm just glad we have one of them.

Both QB's have shown the penchant for winning since they came into the league. They have won a combined 5 SB's.

IMO, no one else in today's game compares to either one of them when the game is on the line.

STEELAMANIA
05-19-2009, 02:02 PM
Brady has Cowher to thank for 2 of his 3 rings.

STEELAMANIA
05-19-2009, 02:04 PM
Why did it take Cowher over 10 seasons to find a qb????? I thought he learned his lesson when his GUT FEELING to start Kent Graham in the opener woke him up.

STEELAMANIA
05-19-2009, 02:08 PM
I think Brady will not be the Brady of 2007. Most qbs coming off season or career threatening injuries play very timid and hear footsteps and fall down on purpose under pressure. We will be watching a very jittery Brady this season.

Vincent
05-19-2009, 02:08 PM
Marsha is a twink.

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0218/nfl_u_brady_580.jpg

Marsha benefited from his team's having won three Super Bowls by stealing the other team's signals. All three were won by 3 points.

Super Bowl XXXVI was won by Viniteri. Twink wasn't a factor, but the geniuses voted him the MVP - 1 TD pass, 16 of 27 for 134. Yeah, thats an MVP performance. Super Bowl XXXVIII was won again by Viniteri, and again Twink was the MVP, albeit on a better performance. Super Bowl XXXIX was yet again won on a Viniteri FG. Twink wasn't the MVP cuz he was sacked 4 times and threw 3 pics. And of course, Twink got slapped around last time cuz the Caucasians couldn't protect him.

Ben's record speaks for itself. Most career wins in his 1st 5 years. 19 4th quarter comebacks in 5 years, including actually winning a Super Bowl. Twink had 21 in his 6th year.

Twink is a poser.

fansince'76
05-19-2009, 02:22 PM
Super Bowl XXXIX was yet again won on a Viniteri FG.

Not to mention Reid's horrible 4th quarter clock management and and the "clutch" McNabb's choking (well, puking, but same diff) in the huddle because he couldn't hack the pressure.

geo111
05-19-2009, 02:30 PM
....or when he isn't being fed the opponent's illegally-obtained defensive signals....
We must never, ever, forget this.

El-Gonzo Jackson
05-19-2009, 02:38 PM
Brady and Ben are the best clutch QB's in the league. I'm not going to argue who is more clutch...I'm just glad we have one of them.

Both QB's have shown the penchant for winning since they came into the league. They have won a combined 5 SB's.

IMO, no one else in today's game compares to either one of them when the game is on the line.

:applaudit:

AllD
05-19-2009, 05:05 PM
Brady should share the honor with his kicker.

mulldog24
05-19-2009, 05:12 PM
One thing I would like to point out is the fact that Brady can't make the play with defenders hanging all over him like Ben can! In the superbowl the giants put alot of pressure on Brady and he couldn't deliver! Ben showed the ability to do this all of last year and his whole career! In suberbowl 43 the Cards brought the pressure and Ben made it look routine to make great plays time after time,yeah just gimme Ben anytime!:drink::tt03::tt02::tt::thumbsup:

The_WARDen
05-19-2009, 05:21 PM
Give me any of the top 3 and I think I could live with it.

Just glad that we have one of them on our team.

Texasteel
05-19-2009, 06:04 PM
Sorry folks...if I take off the B&G colored glasses, I still can see how Brady has done more than Ben and deserves higher praise.

As a "football fan" I still regard guys like Elway, Montana, Marino, Bradshaw, Staubach, as better QB's, but Brady and Manning are close in the 2nd group and Ben trails those guys.....but remember, he is still young and hopefully still improving.

You mean these things come off?

El-Gonzo Jackson
05-19-2009, 06:15 PM
You mean these things come off?

Yeah, I have contacts I can take out to be an objective football fan. If I want to believe that Franco Harris was better than Jim Brown because he has more rushing yards and rings..........then I put them back in. :wink:

Galax Steeler
05-20-2009, 04:34 AM
Blasphemy! Those last-minute desperation heaves to Moss in SB XLII were the absolute epitome of clutch! Not to mention this:

AzCLZPMBeDM

And that pick he threw to lose the '06 AFCCG after relinquishing an 18-point lead? I mean, just EPIC! Tommy-Boy is the dreamiest! He's the bestest, most wonderfulest QB in the history of the universe!

:yawn:

I will never forget how great that was.:rofl:

WeegiesWarriors
05-20-2009, 07:10 AM
Didnt read this entire thread. Just wanted to point out one of my biggest pet peeves regarding Ben's XL stat line. They always point out that he had 0 TDs. That isn't true. He had 1 rushing TD. If you're going to show the bad then you have to also show the good.

AllD
05-20-2009, 03:10 PM
Montana and Elway were better clutch QBs.

Vincent
05-20-2009, 06:01 PM
Montana and Elway were better clutch QBs.

Elway had 47 comebacks in 16 years. Ben has 19 in 5. If the trend holds and he plays as long as Elway, he'll have over 60. I don't recall Joe's number.

I will submit that Ben is every bit the QB that those two were at the same stage of their careers. But, at 27 years old, Ben has two rings. Joe had one. John had none. :coffee: At 27, Ben has 59 wins (#1 all time), Joe had 32. John had 48 all including playoffs.

Clutch?

Cheppy
05-20-2009, 06:20 PM
In the superbowl the giants put alot of pressure on Brady and he couldn't deliver!

Actually I thought that was the best game I've ever seen him play. Belichik completely jettisoned the run leaving Brady to get pummeled all game yet, when he walked off the field late in the 4th quarter he had the lead after an impressive drive. Their defense then couldn't stop the Giants & with barely any time left Brady threw a bomb that was literally an inch or two from Moss' grasp. If he was able to pull it in he probably was going all the way. The Giants played really well and Belichik had a pretty bad game. (i guess that's what happens when he can't tap into other teams' radio frequencys & steal signs) I can't stand the Pats but I think Brady put forth a valiant effort in that game.

With all that said, I'd rather have Ben. You think Brady would be nearly as effective with our offensive line in front of him? Hell no..

HughC
05-21-2009, 01:35 PM
I know we all love to hate Brady and the Patriots, but to say he is not clutch is a little over the top in my opinion. I just looked up some of his stats and I have to admit they're more impressive than I thought they would be: career record of 7-0 in overtime, 84-1 record when the Pats have a lead any time in the 4th quarter, and 28 game-winning 4th quarter drives.

As far as the Super Bowls go, his team didn't need a TD so setting up for a FG against St Louis and Carolina with no time left was the right decision. And it wasn't a 20-yard drive; they went 54 yards in 84 seconds with no timeouts against the Rams. They definitely got a gift when Carolina kicked the ball out of bounds but he still had to complete the last two passes with 44 seconds left when a penalty had put them back to 1st and 20 on their own 43. The final score against Philadelphia was 3 points but they had a big lead and were content to let the Eagles chew up the clock in exchange for a TD while McNabb was barfing; I'll never understand Andy Reid's play calling and clock management in that game.

One last point: sorry, but I don't buy the 'they only won because of cheating' theory since they went 18-1 after that, and Brady set a record for TD passes. We're all entitled to our own opinions but I cringe whenever a Steeler fan says that because to me it makes us sound like whiny excuse-making wusses.


This is not to take anything at all away from Ben because he too is very clutch and I am glad he slipped in the draft and was available for the Steelers. In addition Ben is younger; he is going to be around for a lot longer and will continue to improve. Steeler fans are glad to have Ben and rightfully so, just as Pats fans are glad to have Brady. This isn't a case of either/or; both are clutch.

BlastFurnace
05-21-2009, 02:11 PM
I know we all love to hate Brady and the Patriots, but to say he is not clutch is a little over the top in my opinion. I just looked up some of his stats and I have to admit they're more impressive than I thought they would be: career record of 7-0 in overtime, 84-1 record when the Pats have a lead any time in the 4th quarter, and 28 game-winning 4th quarter drives.

As far as the Super Bowls go, his team didn't need a TD so setting up for a FG against St Louis and Carolina with no time left was the right decision. And it wasn't a 20-yard drive; they went 54 yards in 84 seconds with no timeouts against the Rams. They definitely got a gift when Carolina kicked the ball out of bounds but he still had to complete the last two passes with 44 seconds left when a penalty had put them back to 1st and 20 on their own 43. The final score against Philadelphia was 3 points but they had a big lead and were content to let the Eagles chew up the clock in exchange for a TD while McNabb was barfing; I'll never understand Andy Reid's play calling and clock management in that game.

One last point: sorry, but I don't buy the 'they only won because of cheating' theory since they went 18-1 after that, and Brady set a record for TD passes. We're all entitled to our own opinions but I cringe whenever a Steeler fan says that because to me it makes us sound like whiny excuse-making wusses.


This is not to take anything at all away from Ben because he too is very clutch and I am glad he slipped in the draft and was available for the Steelers. In addition Ben is younger; he is going to be around for a lot longer and will continue to improve. Steeler fans are glad to have Ben and rightfully so, just as Pats fans are glad to have Brady. This isn't a case of either/or; both are clutch.

I agree with your entire post...especially your 3rd paragraph. Brady would succeed anywhere. The guy is an awesome QB.

I hate the Pats too, but they were 1 win away from winning 4 Super Bowls in 6 years. That's pretty impressive.

steelreserve
05-21-2009, 02:15 PM
I know we all love to hate Brady and the Patriots, but to say he is not clutch is a little over the top in my opinion. I just looked up some of his stats and I have to admit they're more impressive than I thought they would be: career record of 7-0 in overtime, 84-1 record when the Pats have a lead any time in the 4th quarter, and 28 game-winning 4th quarter drives.

Only one loss after leading in the fourth quarter? hmm... which game was that? :sofunny:


That's about as un-clutch as it gets.

Note also that just by the nature of that stat, any Patriots win, period, gets included, but most of the losses don't.

Vincent
05-21-2009, 02:21 PM
One last point: sorry, but I don't buy the 'they only won because of cheating' theory since they went 18-1 after that, and Brady set a record for TD passes. We're all entitled to our own opinions but I cringe whenever a Steeler fan says that because to me it makes us sound like whiny excuse-making wusses.

Marsha behind that line that overtly holds on every play and isn't flagged can throw a lot of TDs, especially to the receiving corps he had. That ain't all Marsha. Thats team and homer refs. Put Marsha behind our line and he's done in a season. Done.

Again at 27, Ben has 59 wins (#1 all time), Marsha had 56 including playoffs. Ben has averaged 3.8 4Q comebacks in his career . Marsha has averaged 3.1.

My argument here is that Ben is second to nobody in the "clutch" regard.

And no whiny excuses. They cheated their way to 3 Lombardis and validated that they need to cheat by choking on the 4th when they had to play straight up. They're @#$%ing low life cheaters that should have an * on every record during that period.

HughC
05-21-2009, 03:52 PM
I agree with your entire post...especially your 3rd paragraph. Brady would succeed anywhere. The guy is an awesome QB.

I hate the Pats too, but they were 1 win away from winning 4 Super Bowls in 6 years. That's pretty impressive.
That pretty much sums it up in my opinion. We all hate the Pats and hate Brady, but I can be objective enough to admit he's a good QB.

Only one loss after leading in the fourth quarter? hmm... which game was that? :sofunny:

That's about as un-clutch as it gets.

Note also that just by the nature of that stat, any Patriots win, period, gets included, but most of the losses don't.
Actually, as I recall Brady led the team to a 4th quarter TD to put them in the lead in that game. I didn't see him on the field when their defense couldn't stop the Giants.

You have your opinion and I have mine, but I wouldn't characterize the 4th quarter performance as 'as un-clutch as it gets'; I'd reserve that title for Neil O'Donnell.

Marsha behind that line that overtly holds on every play and isn't flagged can throw a lot of TDs, especially to the receiving corps he had. That ain't all Marsha. Thats team and homer refs. Put Marsha behind our line and he's done in a season. Done.
This is a good example of what I was referring to in regards to whiny excuse-making; finger pointing with no facts or evidence to back it up. You might want to keep in mind that it's a poor example to use when the rest of NFL fans look at the Steelers as having been aided by refs calls in the last two Super Bowls, so hopefully you don't bring that up with other NFL fans.

As far as better receiving corps, Brady had pretty much just a bunch of rejects (Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Andre Davis, etc.) before he got Moss and Welker. A total of one 1000 yard receiver from 2001-2006.

You have a good point regarding the offensive line, but that's something we'll never know for sure. But one could also make the reverse argument of what would Brady do with the Steeler's defense on his side; it may be the difference between three and four Super Bowl rings.

Again at 27, Ben has 59 wins (#1 all time), Marsha had 56 including playoffs. Ben has averaged 3.8 4Q comebacks in his career . Marsha has averaged 3.1.

My argument here is that Ben is second to nobody in the "clutch" regard.
I never said Ben wasn't clutch, I never said he wasn't more clutch than Brady, and I did say I'd rather have Ben than Brady. All I said was that Brady has also been clutch.

And no whiny excuses. They cheated their way to 3 Lombardis and validated that they need to cheat by choking on the 4th when they had to play straight up. They're @#$%ing low life cheaters that should have an * on every record during that period.
If that's what helps you get through those AFCCG memories, great. Reality is that if the videotaping had such a profound effect, then they would have immediately slumped to mediocrity. Instead they won 18 straight and have gone 29-6 since then. Again, we're each entitled to our own opinions, but I'm of the opinion that if the videotaping was that important to their success, then they wouldn't have even made the playoffs, much less make it to the Super Bowl.

SteelersTilIDie
05-21-2009, 04:02 PM
Brady-"He's been to four Super Bowls, won three of them (and was, in 2001, the youngest to ever win one) and took home MVP trophies from two of them. He holds the NFL record for consecutive postseason wins (10). "

"Or in 2007, when he was finally beaten in a Super Bowl (even though Brady did throw a go-ahead touchdown pass with less than three minutes to play)."

Big Ben-"The knock on Benjamin, as far as this list is concerned, is that he didn't play particularly well in Pittsburgh's first Super Bowl win (9-of-21 for 123 yards, 0 touchdowns, 2 interceptions)"

Enough Said


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/The-Shutdown-Five-Most-clutch-quarterbacks-in-t;_ylt=Ato5PyflT1yFLyIs4rPhSj1DubYF?urn=nfl,164119

steelreserve
05-21-2009, 05:07 PM
Actually, as I recall Brady led the team to a 4th quarter TD to put them in the lead in that game. I didn't see him on the field when their defense couldn't stop the Giants.

Yeah, and I saw Brady choke under the pressure from a decent pass rush all day and score 14 points all game, which is about a third of what they scored against the same team a month earlier when it didn't matter. One bout of temporary success notwithstanding, that's about as un-clutch as it gets.

Is Brady a decent QB? Sure. Is he among the best of all time or the "most clutch" in the game? Hell no. It does not count as "clutch" to lean on your system and the talent around you in order to reach your crowning achievement of executing a laughably short drive to get into field goal range and win an anticlimactic Super Bowl.

Hell, if they'd gotten the Tuck Rule call right, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

triphahn
05-21-2009, 05:19 PM
Started a thread a couple weeks back about Steelers needing to beat Brady in the playoffs to be considered the team of the decade. I think even if the Steelers win the Superbowl again next year beating Brady in the playoffs it would not be enough. The press has its nose so far up Brady's ass they have to be Pinochio.

HughC
05-21-2009, 11:28 PM
Yeah, and I saw Brady choke under the pressure from a decent pass rush all day and score 14 points all game, which is about a third of what they scored against the same team a month earlier when it didn't matter. One bout of temporary success notwithstanding, that's about as un-clutch as it gets.
I'm doing a bit of this :banging: right now for somehow letting myself get on this side of the debate, but just "a decent pass rush?" From what I watched in that game, the last time I saw a QB under that much pressure in the SB was back in the day when NFC teams were blowing out AFC teams by four or five touchdowns twenty years ago. Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't characterize three super bowl wins, 28 comeback victories, and an NFL record for TD passes as "temporary success."

Is Brady a decent QB? Sure. Is he among the best of all time or the "most clutch" in the game? Hell no. It does not count as "clutch" to lean on your system and the talent around you in order to reach your crowning achievement of executing a laughably short drive to get into field goal range and win an anticlimactic Super Bowl.
Once again, I never said he was the most clutch of all time, or even most clutch of current NFL quarterbacks; as I said, I'd rather have Ben as the Steelers QB. But in my opinion he is certainly one of at least the top three 'clutch' quarterbacks playing football today. What, the final drive against the Rams with no timeouts was not clutch? Would a Brett Favre hail mary that ended up being intercepted have been more impressive just because he wanted to win it right then and there, rather than making the right decision to go for a field goal since that was all that was needed? Was John Unitas not clutch in the first NFL championship overtime game because he handed off for the TD rather than throwing a pass? Isn't winning more important than personal stats - i.e., getting in position to win rather than risking an interception in that situation?

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson leaned on the system around them to end up as Super Bowl winning quarterbacks, but I wouldn't put Brady in the same category. We all agree that we hate Brady and hate the Pats, but I can also recognize a player that is good - and in this case, is clutch.

Hell, if they'd gotten the Tuck Rule call right, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Actually, they did get the tuck rule right. It's a bad rule that was put in place to help protect the QB. In fact it was brought up again after that season ended and the NFL competition committee decided to retain it; we can thank Bill Polian and Jeff Fischer for that. The tuck rule is still in effect today; I remember it being called on a Tony Romo play last year.

The refs job is to enforce the rules as they are written and they did that. I would hate for refs to start saying 'we know the rule, but we don't like it so therefore we're not going to follow the rulebook' in the middle of a game. Bad rule; right call by the refs.

steelreserve
05-22-2009, 12:26 PM
I'm doing a bit of this :banging: right now for somehow letting myself get on this side of the debate, but just "a decent pass rush?" From what I watched in that game, the last time I saw a QB under that much pressure in the SB was back in the day when NFC teams were blowing out AFC teams by four or five touchdowns twenty years ago. Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't characterize three super bowl wins, 28 comeback victories, and an NFL record for TD passes as "temporary success."

No, no, I meant the "temporary success" was the fourth-quarter touchdown Brady threw to put them back into the lead, and everyone is calling him clutch even though they lost, because "it was the defense's fault." I was only talking about that one game.

I don't really give him much credit for being "clutch" in the first two Super Bowl wins at all -- an anticlimactic 30-yard "drive" for a field goal does not count. Is he a good quarterback. Fine. Did he do what was needed to win? Sure. Does that make him clutch? Not really.

Actually, they did get the tuck rule right. It's a bad rule that was put in place to help protect the QB. In fact it was brought up again after that season ended and the NFL competition committee decided to retain it; we can thank Bill Polian and Jeff Fischer for that. The tuck rule is still in effect today; I remember it being called on a Tony Romo play last year.

The refs job is to enforce the rules as they are written and they did that. I would hate for refs to start saying 'we know the rule, but we don't like it so therefore we're not going to follow the rulebook' in the middle of a game. Bad rule; right call by the refs.

Yeah, I knew that in the back of my mind, so let me rephrase that: If they had gotten it right, they would not have ever had the "tuck rule" at all. Regardless of whether you assign the blame to the refs or the league, that never should have happened and it's not legitimate.