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View Full Version : Fan input on this Offensive Formation


mmalone
05-20-2009, 09:31 AM
This offensive formation drives me crazy. 9 defenders hovering over the line.

mmalone
05-20-2009, 09:35 AM
http://sunflaremarketing.com/formation.jpg

revefsreleets
05-20-2009, 09:57 AM
Sure, I'll be your huckelbuck.

We converted. As per NFL.com.

3-4-PIT 46 (6:44) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass short right to 21-M.Moore to IND 48 for 6 yards (33-M.Bullitt, 23-T.Jennings).

Let me guess...fire Arians?

Dino 6 Rings
05-20-2009, 10:05 AM
Great post Revs, great find on the fact we converted.

El-Gonzo Jackson
05-20-2009, 10:08 AM
I only count 10 defenders in that pic, with the safety backing out, the corner wide and the ILB 6 yards off the line of scrimmage. Theoretically they only have 8 in the box with 1 way off the LOS.

I am no QB, but my pre-snap read of that picture tells me they are only rushing 4 d linemen and if they blitz a corner from the bottom of the formation that I can throw to one of my receivers releasing on the left.

Personally I love that formation on 3rd and 4......but not on 3rd and 1.

Cheppy
05-20-2009, 10:10 AM
Personally I love that formation on 3rd and 4......but not on 3rd and 1.

Same..

JHSilverback
05-20-2009, 10:53 AM
Personally I believe we make more plays out of that formation than anything else in the playbook...

scsteeler
05-20-2009, 11:04 AM
Personally I believe we make more plays out of that formation than anything else in the playbook...

Yes right now that bunch formation seems to be very effective.

slippy
05-20-2009, 11:13 AM
we've been using the "banana bunch" for awhile now. watch for it in SB XL; wiz used it alot too.

CanadianSteel
05-20-2009, 11:17 AM
Ya it seems to create some defensive confusion on the side of the bunch formation once the ball is snapped and where the receivers and TE are going... crossing routes and stuff.
Get enough time and someone should pop open fairly quickly...

revefsreleets
05-20-2009, 11:23 AM
Ya it seems to create some defensive confusion on the side of the bunch formation once the ball is snapped and where the receivers and TE are going... crossing routes and stuff.
Get enough time and someone should pop open fairly quickly...

You just described (Fire!) Arians offensive philosophy. Cross routes screw up the DB's and WR's get open...but you need time. Hence some of the basic misunderstandings and confusion regarding the offense, and some of the knee-jerk "blame Arians" belly-aching. His offense is supposed to be run first to open the pass, and run slower developing pass plays (including firing off 5-7 deep balls a game) designed to get guys open down the field. That's a problem when pass blocking is sub-par.

stlrtruck
05-20-2009, 12:19 PM
You just described (Fire!) Arians offensive philosophy. Cross routes screw up the DB's and WR's get open...but you need time. Hence some of the basic misunderstandings and confusion regarding the offense, and some of the knee-jerk "blame Arians" belly-aching. His offense is supposed to be run first to open the pass, and run slower developing pass plays (including firing off 5-7 deep balls a game) designed to get guys open down the field. That's a problem when pass blocking is sub-par.

I've always believe in giving a coach/player to leave his imprint on the team. If I'm correct, this is Arians third year coming up. So I'll give him this year but if the inability to score points continues, then I'd have to say that his system is flawed in regards to scoring points which is the overall objective.

revefsreleets
05-20-2009, 12:22 PM
Thought this was interesting. BA's play selection and patterns. He runs a little more on 3rd down than some here would have you believe.


We have broken down the last 3 Steeler games (Redskins, Colts, Chargers) into 3 play segments on offense. We’re not looking at Down, Distance, Situation, Drive, or anything else besides 3 play segments. Some of these segments overlap into separate drives…separate quarters….separate halves…we’re simply looking at play call pattern here not tendencies based on situation. We are also looking at “intent” on each play. A sack will count as an attempted pass play, a spike will not be counted, and a play brought back by penalty will still count.

What will we learn from this? Well considering we are going to ignore down and distance and we’re not looking for tendencies, I guess we’ll just learn the play calling cycle or pattern according to BA.

Run, Pass, Pass segment was called 13 times (19% of the time over the last three games, this was your 3 play pattern/cycle regardless of down, situation, etc..)

Pass, Pass, Run segment was called 12 times (18%)

Run, Pass, Run segment was called 10 times (15%)

Run, Run, Pass segment was called 6 times (9%)

Pass, Run, Run segment was called 3 times (4%)

Pass, Run, Pass segment was called 11 times (16%)

Run, Run, Run segment was called 3 times (4%)

Pass, Pass, Pass segment was called 10 times. (15%)

Cheppy
05-20-2009, 12:36 PM
I've always believe in giving a coach/player to leave his imprint on the team. If I'm correct, this is Arians third year coming up. So I'll give him this year but if the inability to score points continues, then I'd have to say that his system is flawed in regards to scoring points which is the overall objective.

I think his philosophy, play-calling & in-game adjustments are severely lacking. But I agree with everything else you say here. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not nor was ever for firing Arians this offseason for I think a change would most likely do more harm than good for this team which, for the most part, has been together for a long time. I'm resigned to the fact that he's their offensive coordinator for the 09 season. He just hasn't shown me anything to be particularly optimistic about. Believe me, I hope he makes strides with guys like Mendenhall & The Tank at his disposal & better play from the offensive line. But again, he doesn't instill optimism.

revefsreleets
05-20-2009, 12:45 PM
Optimism in who? You?

Who cares?

The Steelers like him. They win championships. All you do is complain.

stlrtruck
05-20-2009, 01:41 PM
I think his philosophy, play-calling & in-game adjustments are severely lacking. But I agree with everything else you say here. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not nor was ever for firing Arians this offseason for I think a change would most likely do more harm than good for this team which, for the most part, has been together for a long time. I'm resigned to the fact that he's their offensive coordinator for the 09 season. He just hasn't shown me anything to be particularly optimistic about. Believe me, I hope he makes strides with guys like Mendenhall & The Tank at his disposal & better play from the offensive line. But again, he doesn't instill optimism.

Yeah, we'll see what he comes up with this year. I have faith in the FO and Coach Tomlin that if things do not progess, that they'll do what's best for the organization as a whole, but then again I've noticed that what any thought would be best for the organization are not always the FO's.

Optimism in who? You?

Who cares?

The Steelers like him. They win championships. All you do is complain.

What this really necessary?

Cheppy
05-20-2009, 01:45 PM
Yeah, we'll see what he comes up with this year. I have faith in the FO and Coach Tomlin that if things do not progess, that they'll do what's best for the organization as a whole, but then again I've noticed that what any thought would be best for the organization are not always the FO's.

(fingers crossed)


What this really necessary?

It's ok, he's angry.

revefsreleets
05-20-2009, 01:47 PM
What this really necessary?

:coffee:

mmalone
05-20-2009, 01:50 PM
Run, Pass, Run segment was called 10 times (15%)

Run, Run, Pass segment was called 6 times (9%)



Cool post on the play, this post has nothing to do with the coach... just the play formation. you show run, pass, run 15% and run, run , pass. 9%

do you have some numbers of how many times we run parker up the middle on this Banana Bunch, formation. ??? that would be interesting to see. how many yards they get rushing in this formation.

mmalone
05-20-2009, 01:53 PM
this is the banana bunch formation...

http://sunflaremarketing.com/formation.jpg

Cheppy
05-20-2009, 02:04 PM
I see, I see...back to attacking me.

Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn....

What was Arians alternative, bring the Bus out of retirement? Run Parker up the middle? Pass every down? He ran with what he had. And it was effective enough to do the job.

Reading comprehension skills.

Are you profanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofa nityfiltering with me now or are you being serious?:laughing: Seriously though..



Like I said, you hate Arians and want him gone.

And I'm boring..

But he's not going anywhere. I loved your crackerjack assessment that the Steelers don't like like him and don't trust him either, but keep him around because it's better to have a BAD coordinator than a NEW coordinator. Brilliant piece of thinking there on that one.

I've always believe in giving a coach/player to leave his imprint on the team. If I'm correct, this is Arians third year coming up. So I'll give him this year but if the inability to score points continues, then I'd have to say that his system is flawed in regards to scoring points which is the overall objective.

Yeah, we'll see what he comes up with this year. I have faith in the FO and Coach Tomlin that if things do not progess, that they'll do what's best for the organization as a whole, but then again I've noticed that what any thought would be best for the organization are not always the FO's.

Exhibiting three dimensional thinking is appreciated. Thanks stlrtruck..

El-Gonzo Jackson
05-20-2009, 03:51 PM
One thing to take in consideration about playcalling is that most OC's script their first 20 or so plays. Its not any kind of pattern, but more an assumption of how the play performed and down, distance, location of the following play.

After the scripted plays are over, it becomes more of a flow of what is working and what isnt, as to what is called. Arians honestly gets a nice flow to his playcalling and its pleasurable to watch him work.

Again, my only negative thought on him is when it becomes 3rd and 2 or less, I rarely see him come with the offensive attitude of taking those 2 yards with brutal aggression.

The Steelers of the last 30 years would take those 2 yards because they "wanted" them. Nowadays, they take those yards if they are "given" to them.

Davison_K
05-20-2009, 05:36 PM
I only count 10 defenders in that pic, with the safety backing out, the corner wide and the ILB 6 yards off the line of scrimmage. Theoretically they only have 8 in the box with 1 way off the LOS.

I am no QB, but my pre-snap read of that picture tells me they are only rushing 4 d linemen and if they blitz a corner from the bottom of the formation that I can throw to one of my receivers releasing on the left.

Personally I love that formation on 3rd and 4......but not on 3rd and 1.

Same..

I am pretty much in agreement... I think its a great formation and if Santonio or whoever that is out there beats his guy it could be an easy 6.

SteelersTilIDie
05-20-2009, 08:55 PM
thats a sick formation because the three receivers are virtually uncoverable with the right play call

revefsreleets
05-21-2009, 08:13 AM
Arians first quarter success rate is actually not bad. Which shows that he can script plays and gameplan well. Our 4th qtr numbers aren't bad either, which shows that he's capable of adjusting.

If you have a bad line, and you face a good D with a good DC who ALSO makes adjustments, you could dig up Bill Walsh and install him as your OC and he'd struggle...

El-Gonzo Jackson
05-21-2009, 09:58 AM
Arians first quarter success rate is actually not bad. Which shows that he can script plays and gameplan well. Our 4th qtr numbers aren't bad either, which shows that he's capable of adjusting.

...

Those are points that the blind Arians haters just dont see. I have scripted offensive plays and its really a challenge to stick with that script, when certain plays dont develop as planned.

When I rewatch steeler games that I have recorded, its often a joy to watch BA 's flow of playcalling and see what he was thinking. I just hate seeing little drag plays to Ward or Davis on 3rd and 2 that fall incomplete.

Dino 6 Rings
05-21-2009, 11:14 AM
I converted from a Arians Hater to a believer during the season as it went along and I realized that it wasn't the OC's Fault that on 3rd and 1 we couldn't gain a yard on the ground.

HughC
05-21-2009, 12:40 PM
From the bunch there are a lot of things the receivers can do to get open; in my opinion it's a great formation. Receivers can cross and effectively set a legal pick to get open while defenders run into each other. The Colts have done the same type of thing for a long time, with great success.

SCSTILLER
05-21-2009, 01:08 PM
From the bunch there are a lot of things the receivers can do to get open; in my opinion it's a great formation. Receivers can cross and effectively set a legal pick to get open while defenders run into each other. The Colts have done the same type of thing for a long time, with great success.

Another thing, with all the confusion going on with WR's crossing in front of the LB's and DB's chasing them, the RB can easily sneak out of the backfield. I remember one play where Parker snuck out of the backfield while they were in this formation and was open 20 yds down field, granted he dropped the ball though.

I am still not completely sold on Arians though. I do give him credit, we did win #6 with him making calls. I just beleive, and this is just my opinion, that you have to set up the offense to suit what you have and the way the game is going on. Some games we seemed to adjust well to what the D was throwing at us, but other games (Eagles) we just seemed several steps behind. But hey, I will gladly take #7 also with him making the calls, and as long as we keep winning with him as the OC, who the heck cares will care what anyone's opinion of Arian's is.