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View Full Version : Why are there soo many people joining the Military?


T.Richardson
05-24-2009, 02:08 PM
Im at A school in San Antonio, TX right now, and Im freaking roomed up with 3 people in a hotel sized room. Two rooms are connected through the bathroom, which totals up to 6 people in a freaking small room. And now im getting kicked out of my school and I had to choose another job, and almost every single job is overmanned, and the only one I could get was Yeoman.

And if any Navy guys here with experience, I got a question. I was at the admin office today, and asked if I was qualified for EOD, and they said I was, but I would have to wait 2 years to cross rate to that job. I looked on the EOD website, and it says that you can volunteer while at A school, so now im confused. My question is when I go to Mississippi for Yeoman A school, can I volunteer for EOD? or do I have to wait 2 years?

fansince'76
05-24-2009, 02:22 PM
Why are there soo many people joining the Military?

Take a good look at the economy. There's the reason, in a nutshell.

HometownGal
05-24-2009, 03:30 PM
Why are there soo many people joining the Military?

Because the majority of those who enlist truly love their country and want to make a difference by serving it instead of sitting on their asses behind a desk or on their sofas B & Ming about how bad they have it here in the U.S. of A.

xfl2001fan
05-24-2009, 03:58 PM
Im at A school in San Antonio, TX right now, and Im freaking roomed up with 3 people in a hotel sized room. Two rooms are connected through the bathroom, which totals up to 6 people in a freaking small room. And now im getting kicked out of my school and I had to choose another job, and almost every single job is overmanned, and the only one I could get was Yeoman.

And if any Navy guys here with experience, I got a question. I was at the admin office today, and asked if I was qualified for EOD, and they said I was, but I would have to wait 2 years to cross rate to that job. I looked on the EOD website, and it says that you can volunteer while at A school, so now im confused. My question is when I go to Mississippi for Yeoman A school, can I volunteer for EOD? or do I have to wait 2 years?

When the economy is bad, recruiting always goes up. For most people, 4 years of guaranteed pay is far better than the alternative...

As for your question, when you get to Meridian, talk to the folks there. Otherwise, talk with Trauben. She's still active Navy and may have some more insight. I've been out of that branch for nearly 8 years. I believe that, unless the EOD is really hurting for people, you'll have to wait 2 years...which will likely turn to 4. Once it's time for you to reenlist, you can make that a requirement to raise your right hand again.

At least that's the way it worked for most Sailors who wanted to change their Rate or go to another school.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
05-24-2009, 05:12 PM
Because the majority of those who enlist truly love their country and want to make a difference by serving it instead of sitting on their asses behind a desk or on their sofas B & Ming about how bad they have it here in the U.S. of A.

:tt02:

tony hipchest
05-24-2009, 05:32 PM
because we are stretched so thin and undermanned, that according to the joint chief of staffs, the military and US govt has even explored getting rid of the "dont ask dont tell" policy and let openly flaming gays enlist. :hunch:

the military is also a great way out of the ghettos for kids who dont wanna make ends meet by selling drugs or their bodies.

some who were raised on welfare actually want to contribute and make an honest living.

MACH1
05-24-2009, 08:22 PM
A lot want to get out of whatever little podunk towns they grew up in. I'm talking towns with a population 3-5 hundred.

The Patriot
05-24-2009, 08:37 PM
The promotional videos? Maybe.

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steelreserve
05-25-2009, 04:45 AM
Take a good look at the economy. There's the reason, in a nutshell.

That, and also the fact that since OMGbama took over, people seem to be less afraid of joining the military because they think you probably won't get sent to Iraq to go get shot anymore, because hey, it's all good.

Remember -- now, we have HOPE.

T.Richardson
05-25-2009, 09:44 AM
That, and also the fact that since OMGbama took over, people seem to be less afraid of joining the military because they think you probably won't get sent to Iraq to go get shot anymore, because hey, it's all good.

Remember -- now, we have HOPE.

your right, they are going to Afghanistan!

T.Richardson
05-25-2009, 09:48 AM
When the economy is bad, recruiting always goes up. For most people, 4 years of guaranteed pay is far better than the alternative...

As for your question, when you get to Meridian, talk to the folks there. Otherwise, talk with Trauben. She's still active Navy and may have some more insight. I've been out of that branch for nearly 8 years. I believe that, unless the EOD is really hurting for people, you'll have to wait 2 years...which will likely turn to 4. Once it's time for you to reenlist, you can make that a requirement to raise your right hand again.

At least that's the way it worked for most Sailors who wanted to change their Rate or go to another school.

Well, I know there is a high attrition rate for EOD, and they were asking for volunteers for EOD at boot camp. So I assume they might need more guys.

Who's Trauben? I need to get in contact with that person, where is she?

Godfather
05-25-2009, 09:59 AM
My question is when I go to Mississippi for Yeoman A school, can I volunteer for EOD?

You going to be at Stennis?

T.Richardson
05-25-2009, 10:03 AM
You going to be at Stennis?

No, Im going to Meridian.

SCSTILLER
05-25-2009, 02:13 PM
Well, I know there is a high attrition rate for EOD, and they were asking for volunteers for EOD at boot camp. So I assume they might need more guys.

Who's Trauben? I need to get in contact with that person, where is she?

Cannot speak for Navy EOD, but have a little insight on Air Force EOD. Two buddies of mine are EOD where I am stationed at. EOD in the USAF is in high demand for a number of reasons:

1. High ops tempo, always fricken gone
2. High drop out rate in technical schools
3. Job offers on the outside (my buddy is being recruited by several non military government agencies for a crap ton of money)
4. Dangerous job, one close encounter may make you second guess your career choice.

That is why EOD is in high demand throughout the services. You see all those EOD's going off in Iraq/Afghanistan, those are only a portion of the ones that are there. Our EOD troops are doing a great job of disarming many, many more EOD's.

Good luck in getting EOD, tough job but the reward is astronomical!

revefsreleets
05-25-2009, 03:18 PM
I always hear how the military recruits poor black kids to go fight rich white mens wars, but I'm confused...

Today in the paper there was a pictorial list of all the area men and women who have been KIA in The Iraq and Afghan War. 70 individuals in all. But only 5 blacks. The population around here is on par with the country overall, about 12-13%, yet only 5 out of 70 (7%ish) KIA's from this area are black. It seems like we have a disproportionately white military.

Why is this so? Why am I repeatedly hearing that our military is disproportionally black?

Just curious.

By the by, it's nice to see that we do have a ton of volunteers. We ARE at war, so it's not like these kids are signing up for low-risk cushy peace-time jobs.

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 03:53 PM
i dont know if 70 local ohio kids out of the 4000+ KIA is a large enough sample size. maybe the local recruiters whos responsibility is the inner cities there just suck when it comes to convincing the poor blacks that the military provides a better option. :noidea:

i do know the AFB i work on in southwestern NM is probably 30% black. oddly enough, theres a very low percentage of mexicans even though they make up a large portion of our local demographic. as far as the enlisted female airmen, i would say its 50-50 black/white.

i have lived on 3 af bases in CA, AZ, and NM and the black population there, far outweighs the general percentage in the surrounding "native" communities.

Preacher
05-25-2009, 04:36 PM
I always hear how the military recruits poor black kids to go fight rich white mens wars, but I'm confused...

Today in the paper there was a pictorial list of all the area men and women who have been KIA in The Iraq and Afghan War. 70 individuals in all. But only 5 blacks. The population around here is on par with the country overall, about 12-13%, yet only 5 out of 70 (7%ish) KIA's from this area are black. It seems like we have a disproportionately white military.

Why is this so? Why am I repeatedly hearing that our military is disproportionally black?

Just curious.

By the by, it's nice to see that we do have a ton of volunteers. We ARE at war, so it's not like these kids are signing up for low-risk cushy peace-time jobs.

I would think it is because many of those people who are over there are 2 and 3 time volunteers, most people like that either 1, want this to be a career or 2, are going into it for an adventure. I don't think people who simply enter the military for a four year stint and the college money are two and three time volunteers.

By that I mean, you volunteer to be in the military, then you volunteer for a job that you KNOW will place you on or close to the front lines, then many of them volunteer AGAIN for jobs like spec. ops, force recon, etc., which puts them at the sharpest point of the spear.

It is mainly those who had options, and CHOSE the military that end up there IMO.

xfl2001fan
05-25-2009, 04:40 PM
Well, I know there is a high attrition rate for EOD, and they were asking for volunteers for EOD at boot camp. So I assume they might need more guys.

Who's Trauben? I need to get in contact with that person, where is she?

Don't know where she's at, but shoot her a PM. She's a Chief in the Navy...so she could be out doing some kind of Ops...and if I remember right about her MOS/work, she'll spend a lot of time in and out to sea.

Like I said, when you get to Meridian (boring place, I was an AK when I was in...the Walmart was new in town and the locals were just going nuts over it.) ask there. It may be that because of the high attrition rate for EOD that you'll go there right after your YN school instead of to your next command. I don't know the numbers and don't remember the resources to look that info up being a Soldier for the last 8 years.

Preacher
05-25-2009, 04:40 PM
i dont know if 70 local ohio kids out of the 4000+ KIA is a large enough sample size. maybe the local recruiters whos responsibility is the inner cities there just suck when it comes to convincing the poor blacks that the military provides a better option. :noidea:

i do know the AFB i work on in southwestern NM is probably 30% black. oddly enough, theres a very low percentage of mexicans even though they make up a large portion of our local demographic. as far as the enlisted female airmen, i would say its 50-50 black/white.

i have lived on 3 af bases in CA, AZ, and NM and the black population there, far outweighs the general percentage in the surrounding "native" communities.

True, but I think his point was not people stationed in Ohio but rather, those who were BORN and RAISED there who went off to be in the military.

And you stats speak to my previous post. Those without many choices that choose the military as a way to escape an enviroment usually don't choose placements that put them on the front line. I wonder how many re-enlist and how many get out after 4 or 8 years for college. Either way, it is a good choice. It just goes to answering Suit's question a bit more.

And no tony. . . I didn't edit my post after you quoted me.

Preacher
05-25-2009, 04:43 PM
Just walk in and tell them you want to go to Bud/S.

You'll greatly enjoy the next 6 months of your life... if you make it through!

:rofl:

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 05:13 PM
True, but I think his point was not people stationed in Ohio but rather, those who were BORN and RAISED there who went off to be in the military.

.well then, either you are way off the mark or he is. :noidea:

Today in the paper there was a pictorial list of all the area men and women who have been KIA in The Iraq and Afghan War. 70 individuals in all. But only 5 blacks. The population around here is on par with the country overall, about 12-13%, yet only 5 out of 70 (7%ish) KIA's from this area are black. It seems like we have a disproportionately white military.

i couldnt recall any military bases in the entire state of ohio so i consulted with dan (AKA google) and sure enough, dayton is home to wright-patterson AFB. that is it.

local papers always run lists of local military members who were killed or MIA (especially on memorial day). my paper does it. im sure yours does too.

again, 70 people killed from th akron area is FAR to small of a sample for him to draw the conclusion he came to.

while it may seem to him that we have a disproportianately whilte military, his reality ISNT every one elses.

theres TONS of research on the matter. this piece is just the tip of the iceberg.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_n48/ai_19657030/

i dont know what revs point is quotinc his local fishwrap but the conlusions he draws are really misinfomative.

The United States armed services - army, navy, marines, air force - are together the most racially integrated mass organization in the world. No organization nearly as large, anywhere, has more harmonious (which is not to say perfect) race relations, and none has as many whites being supervised by blacks - as meaningful a proof of racial integration as one could ask for. These are not assertions but facts open to examination by anybody who may care to do so.

One measure of this truth is the number of young black men and women - several tens of thousands - who enter the armed services each year. Every year since the Vietnam War, around 20 percent of the first term enlistees entering the armed forces are black, well above the African-American fraction of the population (14 percent of the prime age group). Why? Because blacks see in the military services opportunities often unavailable to them in civilian America. African Americans see the armed services as practicing equal opportunity, and as having far higher percentages of black supervisors than those found in any other occupation. Moreover, blacks are not recruited or employed solely or even mainly in combat organizations. While African Americans are 30 percent of the army's enlisted force, they hold more than 30 percent of the non-combat specialties. The medical career field, for example, is disproportionately black. Blacks are thus not over-represented in the combat arms; about 20 percent of today's army recruits are black, but fewer than 10 percent of those enlistees destined for infantry training are black. Blacks, in other words, are not recruited solely as warriors and usually choose careers that have civilian transferability.(1)
For these reasons - career opportunities and equal opportunity - the re-enlistment rates for blacks are considerably higher than they are for whites; across the Defense Department, about 150 blacks re-enlist each year for 100 whites. Hence, while the army takes about 20-22 percent of its annual enlistees from the African-American community, the total army enlisted force is 30 percent black because blacks stay in the army longer than whites. Also, blacks are promoted to senior enlisted ranks, on a merit-only basis, in proportion to their representation in the service. This is to be expected because the army takes black and white recruits with similar aptitudes and education. More than 90 percent of today's recruits have high schools diplomas (a higher percentage of diploma holders than this age group in general), and more blacks than whites enter the service with diplomas. Thus, about 30 percent of the highest ranking enlisted personnel - E-9s or sergeants-major - are blacks, as are about 11 percent of the officer corps and 7 percent of the generals.

The other services have lower percentages of black officers, but all of them have senior enlisted black personnel in proportion to the African-American percentage of their force. Clearly, African Americans see benefits in military organizations that continually educate all personnel at all ranks on the need to operate in a bias-free atmosphere; that severely penalize those who cause racial friction; that bar promotions for officers and supervisory enlisted who do not maintain a healthy racial climate; that discharge all known active members of hate groups; that treat all people of the same rank equally in terms of pay, allowances, housing, and medical care, regardless of race; and that scrupulously study the results of promotion boards to ensure freedom from racial (or any kind of ethnic or religious) prejudice.

A Mixed History

Although the armed services were the first mass U.S. institutions truly to integrate racially, the services did not always practice equal opportunity. They usually reflected the biases of the greater American community, and there is much ugliness in the military record. How and why the services reached the point where they are today ahead of the rest of America may be instructive.

The military's progress in race relations has turned on three key factors: the essential demand for people to fill the ranks, the bonding that comes naturally to military members, and the nature of the mission of the armed forces. The charge of the military is to promote American national interests by being ready to defeat any foe that challenges them. The military calling, with its unique unlimited liability, requires each member to value people on the basis of their contribution to mission accomplishment, and to insist that the most be attained from everyone. It is not that military people are more enlightened than civilians on racial matters (or less so, incidentally), nor are they more benevolent than civilians (or less so), but they do concentrate very hard on their mission.

Even when the country practiced slavery, military service was seen as a haven for escaped slaves to obtain freedom or for free black men to better their lot in life. Given the strain of raising fighting men, blacks were often openly recruited into the military even in the eighteenth century. More than five thousand blacks fought as regulars in the Continental Army of Revolutionary War times, and the navy, although tiny in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, was never able to man its ships without black sailors. During the last thirty-five years of the nineteenth century, blacks made up a greater fraction of the U.S. Army than they did of the general population.

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 05:21 PM
while the numbers are still ppoportionately high or equal, its not all great news.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/24/AR2007062400372.html

WASHINGTON -- The number of blacks joining the military has plunged by more than one-third since the Afghanistan and Iraq wars began. Other job prospects are soaring and relatives of potential recruits increasingly are discouraging them from joining the armed services.

According to data obtained by The Associated Press, the decline covers all four military services for active duty recruits. The drop is even more dramatic when National Guard and Reserve recruiting is included.

The findings reflect the growing unpopularity of the wars, particularly among family members and other adults who exert influence over high school and college students considering the military as a place to serve their country, further their education or build a career.

Walking past the Army recruiting station in downtown Washington, D.C., this past week, Sean Glover said he has done all he can to talk black relatives out of joining the military.

"I don't think it's a good time. I don't support the government's efforts here and abroad," said Glover, 36. "There's other ways you can pay for college. There's other ways you can get your life together. Joining the Army, the military, comes at a very high price."

The message comes as no surprise to the Pentagon. At the Defense Department, efforts are under way to increase the size of the Army and Marine Corps so the country can better wage what the military believes will be a long battle against terrorism.

"The global war on terror has taken its toll, no question," said Curt Gilroy, the Pentagon's director of accession policy, in an Associated Press interview.

Marine Commandant Gen. James T. Conway agreed that the bloodshed in Iraq _ where more than 3,540 U.S. troops have died _ is the biggest deterrent for prospective recruits.

"The daily death toll that comes out is, I think, causing people who are the influencers of young men and women in America to take a second look," he said. "So I think that's probably the single most dominant feature."

According to Pentagon data, there were nearly 51,500 new black recruits for active duty and reserves in 2001. That number fell to less than 32,000 in 2006, a 38 percent decline.

When only active duty troops are counted, the number of black recruits went from more than 31,000 in 2002 to about 23,600 in 2006, almost one-quarter fewer.

The decline is particularly stark for the Army. Blacks represented about 23 percent of the active Army's enlisted recruits in 2000, but 12.4 percent in 2006.


im sure this number has gone back up since published in 2007.

either way, im expecting to be told im wrong, or that dan fed me info. whatever. carry on.

Godfather
05-25-2009, 05:30 PM
No, Im going to Meridian.

Meridian? My condolences.

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 06:30 PM
True, but I think his point was not people stationed in Ohio but rather, those who were BORN and RAISED there who went off to be in the military.
.

just curious preacher. when i speak of the local kids of ohio, how do you confuse that with me not speaking of those who were born and rased there to the point that you needed to use caps lock at me to try to emphasize that it is i who dont understand that which i am reading (no thanks for the clarification that wasnt needed.)?

was i not perfectly clear with my post or is there a certain republiclear i need to learn?

i dont know if 70 local ohio kids out of the 4000+ KIA is a large enough sample size. maybe the local recruiters whos responsibility is the inner cities there just suck when it comes to convincing the poor blacks that the military provides a better option.



is this just an unspoken tactic you guys love to use?

fansince'76
05-25-2009, 06:49 PM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/movie_i_see_dead_people.jpg

"I see Republican condescension...."

:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 07:01 PM
that would be hilarious if used within the proper context.

im glad im not the only one who see's it (or are you going to attempt to re-clarify preacher and revs?)

just curious fansince...

do you believe revs claims that the military is disproportionaly majority white, and do you back preacher in believing the veracity a 70 out of 4000 sample pool?

fansince'76
05-25-2009, 07:10 PM
that would be hilarious if used within the proper context.

Ah, so it's OK for you to be condescending. Got it. I just found it humorous that Preacher's post apparently ate at you for over an hour before you finally called it out for feeling it was condescending, when you've done the same thing to me several times lately.

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 07:18 PM
Ah, so it's OK for you to be condescending. Got it. I just found it humorous that Preacher's post apparently ate at you for over an hour before you finally called it out for feeling it was condescending, when you've done the same thing to me several times lately.nice deciphering. nothing condescending about it. i think he either completely misread, or is starting to use revs "i dont know what youre talking about" tactics. im giving him the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to clarify himself. i dont know what was eating at me. i went across the street for a brew and came back to see if there was a response. there wasnt.

as far as what ive done to you lately, i cant even recall responding to one of your posts in a couple of weeks. :noidea:

Preacher
05-25-2009, 09:02 PM
Actually, I was just conversating...

Seeing how this is yet ANOTHER thread that has descended into left vs. right politics... I guess I'll leave this one alone too.

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 09:11 PM
silence is golden i guess.

but thanks for the clarification of what you thought revs point was.

the rhetoric and propoganda plus those who support (regardless if its even in the ball park) it has gotten way beyond the point of absurd.

Preacher
05-25-2009, 09:24 PM
silence is golden i guess.

but thanks for the clarification of what you thought revs point was.

the rhetoric and propoganda plus those who support (regardless if its even in the ball park) it has gotten way beyond the point of absurd.

You took a non-left/right issue and drove it into republican/dem. politics... and then sit around and bemoan why people aren't responding and claim victory?

Nice.

BTW.... Here is the answer to the question. 74.75% of all war dead in iraq are white.

9.49 % are black.

a 2.5% variance is well within acceptable margins in statistics.

Guess your original post was quite off the mark in this area.

http://usiraq.procon.org/files/usiraq/oif_mil_deaths-5-3-08.gif



And go look at the site this comes from http://usiraq.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000671

It is the furthest thing from biased from the left or right.

Or do you understand that there ARE people that hold opinions about things, which are NOT based in politics? Because lately (last 9 months or so), it seems like any comment on ANYTHING not football related, you seem to immediately link it some right-wing viewpoint.

And yes, this is my last post concerning the politics of this thread... but the original question me curios. . .

steelwall
05-25-2009, 09:25 PM
I'm just jammin right now to Creedence....it aint me..it aint me...I'm no military son........

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 09:30 PM
You took a non-left/right issue and drove it into republican/dem. politics... and then sit around and bemoan why people aren't responding and claim victory?

Nice.

BTW.... Here is the answer to the question. 74.75% of all war dead in iraq are white.

9.49 % are black.

a 2.5% variance is well within acceptable margins in statistics.

Guess your original post was quite off the mark in this area.





. .
:rofl:

that just goes to show whites are more likely to be shot and killed in combat.

nothing to do with the supposed disproportionate enlistment rates revs speaks of.

then again, whatever happens in ohio must be true for the rest of us all.

theres no disputing that since the expert lives there.

It seems like we have a disproportionately white military.



.

FALSE.

admit it preacher. while an "honerable" cause, defending this false claim serves you no good.

steelwall
05-25-2009, 09:43 PM
[QUOTE=tony hipchest;609589]:rofl:

that just goes to show whites are more likely to be shot and killed in combat.

[QUOTE]


Thats a bit insensitive bro being that it was just memorial day for christ sakes.

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 09:51 PM
i dont see color when it comes to our fallen soldiers.

going off of revs post, i woulsd say that was rather insensitive for the day an occasion.

so tell us, as one who has actually served, and lived on military establishments...

did it SEEM to you that we have a disproportionately white military?

perhaps you can shed light on the TRUTH.

Preacher
05-25-2009, 09:55 PM
:rofl:

that just goes to show whites are more likely to be shot and killed in combat.

nothing to do with the supposed disproportionate enlistment rates revs speaks of.

then again, whatever happens in ohio must be true for the rest of us all.

theres no disputing that since the expert lives there.



FALSE.

admit it preacher. while an "honerable" cause, defending this false claim serves you no good.


Tony,

this is why I just don't do this with you anymore... because you either 1... can't follow or 2. twist and spin what is said.

However, just for old times sake when you treated people around here with respect, let me try once again.

Rev had two (2) parts to his question. 1. The deaths which are disproportionally white in Iraq. 2. The military itself, which is said to be disproportionally black.

I CHOSE number 1. The deaths are disproportionally white, and Revs had picked up on that disproportion. I then went on to EXPLAIN why I felt that way. Here, let me quote that again for you.

I would think it is because many of those people who are over there are 2 and 3 time volunteers, most people like that either 1, want this to be a career or 2, are going into it for an adventure. I don't think people who simply enter the military for a four year stint and the college money are two and three time volunteers.

By that I mean, you volunteer to be in the military, then you volunteer for a job that you KNOW will place you on or close to the front lines, then many of them volunteer AGAIN for jobs like spec. ops, force recon, etc., which puts them at the sharpest point of the spear.

It is mainly those who had options, and CHOSE the military that end up there IMO.

Ok.. see? I am arguing point one, and continue to do so when I discuss with you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest http://forums.steelersfever.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?p=609467#post609467)
i dont know if 70 local ohio kids out of the 4000+ KIA is a large enough sample size. maybe the local recruiters whos responsibility is the inner cities there just suck when it comes to convincing the poor blacks that the military provides a better option. :noidea:

i do know the AFB i work on in southwestern NM is probably 30% black. oddly enough, theres a very low percentage of mexicans even though they make up a large portion of our local demographic. as far as the enlisted female airmen, i would say its 50-50 black/white.

i have lived on 3 af bases in CA, AZ, and NM and the black population there, far outweighs the general percentage in the surrounding "native" communities.

True, but I think his point was not people stationed in Ohio but rather, those who were BORN and RAISED there who went off to be in the military.

And you stats speak to my previous post. Those without many choices that choose the military as a way to escape an enviroment usually don't choose placements that put them on the front line. I wonder how many re-enlist and how many get out after 4 or 8 years for college. Either way, it is a good choice. It just goes to answering Suit's question a bit more.


And that has been my point all along.

How you drive this to left-right politics is being me, and very tiring. Just because you have taken to view the entire universe through "protect Obama/the left" glasses doesn't mean the rest of the world actually takes the opposing view.

tony hipchest
05-25-2009, 10:32 PM
this thread has nothing to do with obama or bush, so i dont know what you are getting at.

the op asks why so many people are enlisting (which may be true in his parts but i doubt is true overall- research and numbers say as much).

then revs goes off on some bogus diatribe how the military is disproportionately white based on 70 locals from ohio who have unfortunately lost their lives.

am i not allowed to point out the fallacies of this bogus claim.

ive been pretty consistant with the posts i address... "come correct, or dont come at all". :hunch:

again, you (and a couple of others are dodging the question in regards to this).

do you feel that 70 out of 4000+ is a fair sample size in which revs uses to back his claim?

i know the real answer and i know its the answer his cheerleaders will not honestly admit.

its par for the course. i get it.

steelwall
05-25-2009, 11:43 PM
I would say in general observations many times of groups of soldiers from the(army,navy,airforce,marines) it is disporportionate. White by far make up the most soldiers, but honestly I think it is pretty much in line )close at least) with national racial statistics.

I'm saying that as my own view and am qoiting no statistical data.

And I don't think preacher intended to use the list like you did, least he didnt use a laughing smiley when talking about fallen soldiers..

tony hipchest
05-26-2009, 12:06 AM
I would say in general observations many times of groups of soldiers from the(army,navy,airforce,marines) it is disporportionate. White by far make up the most soldiers, but honestly I think it is pretty much in line )close at least) with national racial statistics.
I'm saying that as my own view and am qoiting no statistical data.

And I don't think preacher intended to use the list like you did, least he didnt use a laughing smiley when talking about fallen soldiers..

then by definition it is not disproportionate, right?

and sorry if that offended you (that was not my intention), but the laughing smiley was clearly directed at preachers gross misuse at statistics as opposed to the actual fallen soldiers that you feel it was.

but i dont mind being spun to be the bad guy. im used to it.

what is amazing here is despite the truth, facts and figures, everybody seems afraid to stand up and tell revs he is wrong when he is obviously and blatantly wrong.

yet while blindly defending him, nobody has the balls to say that 70 out of 4000+ is an accurate sample to draw such a )incorrect) conclusion from.

i hope people here ask themselves who is really the sheep and who is the Pied Piper.

steelwall
05-26-2009, 12:18 AM
then by definition it is not disproportionate, right?.

Right, I never argued that point.

and sorry if that offended you (that was not my intention), but the laughing smiley was clearly directed at preachers gross misuse at statistics as opposed to the actual fallen soldiers that you feel it was.

Apology accepted.... I don't think you think that way but this is an emotional time for alot of us.

but i dont mind being spun to be the bad guy. im used to it.

Didnt say you was a bad guy just said your comment was pretty much in poor tste giben the circumstances, and I have that right.

what is amazing here is despite the truth, facts and figures, everybody seems afraid to stand up and tell revs he is wrong when he is obviously and blatantly wrong.

Come on you cant say the rev is wrong on everything, (and I know you didnt not trying to spin just make a point) he has a right to post information, just as we all do. Sometimes I agree with what the rev says, sometimes I dont, sometimes I agree with what you say, and you know that.

This is not a war Toney noone has to defend the rev, if they agree with what he says, doesnt neccessarily mean they are defending.

Preacher
05-26-2009, 12:22 AM
do you feel that 70 out of 4000+ is a fair sample size in which revs uses to back his claim?

a sample size of voters in the us is usually 750-1000 voters, when there are about 100 million voters. That works out to approx. 10 voters for every million as a sample size.

So... to answer your question.. is 1:100,000 a greater or less sample size than 7:400??

In fact, a sample size of 70 will give a population of 4000 a 2.31 percent margin of error, meaning that with 95% confidence, the numbers will be right to within 2.31 percent. With 99% confidence, the numbers will be right to within 3.04 percent, or 10.04% (Revs 7% plus 2.31percent Margin of Error) of all service deaths in the war are black servicemen and women, by extrapolation.

How fascinating that the REAL NUMBERS, as given and referenced below, are 9.49 percent, which falls within the 99 percent confidence margin at 10.

So your answer, according to statistics and sample size and backed up by the actual numbers, is that YES, this IS a good sample size.

Or, did you mean this is a tainted source fallacy? That is a different argument...

I think what you mean is that it isn't a "representative" sample. That may be true, but sure ain't what you're arguing.

____________________________

Of course Tony, I know one thing we both agree on, and probably everyone here, is that even 1 is too many. It is very sad. . . and this country owes them, their families, and more than we can EVER give them, regardless of skin color or political party.

steelwall
05-26-2009, 12:33 AM
one last thing too....I want to remind everyone what I said was from my own observation, not from actual statistics (because honestly those are stats I dont care to know)

But Toney let me throw this tid bit out in the Airborne I witnessed many more asians or pacific islanders than blacks..... so go figure.

tony hipchest
05-26-2009, 12:55 AM
Right, I never argued that point.

.

ok. with this statement i figured you were-

Originally Posted by steelwall
I would say in general observations many times of groups of soldiers from the(army,navy,airforce,marines) it is disporportionate.




Or, did you mean this is a tainted source fallacy? That is a different argument...

I think what you mean is that it isn't a "representative" sample. That may be true, but sure ain't what you're arguing.

____________________________

Of course Tony, I know one thing we both agree on, and probably everyone here, is that even 1 is too many. It is very sad. . . and this country owes them, their families, and more than we can EVER give them, regardless of skin color or political party.i have been pretty clear that a sample size of 70 KIA concentrated around akron ohio isnt accurate of our entire enlisted military. i stand by that.

as for the second point, i totally agree, and find it a bit disgusting that yet another one of these discussions gor drug down to a racial matter.

one day as a society, we will be beyond that.

oh, and steelwall, i have also noticed a higher proportion of asians and islanders in the military (air force) primarilly amerasians whose fathers served in korea, vietnam, or done tdy time overseas and married someone they met over there.

about 1/5th of my employees (8 of 40) are asian dependants who have gained citizenship via their military husbands. just about each one of them has a child who has or currently serves in the military. those are just my employees now. ive had many more in the past.

it seems taht none of them have needed much of a recruiter to convince them to join. growing up as military brats, they have seen it is an honorable and successful way to go w/o much poking and prodding.

but unlike revs w/o proper research, i will not throw out a generalized blanket statement as "the military seems disproportionately higher with asians" in hopes that it sticks as undisputable fact.

he asked a question and i answered it. that is that.

steelwall
05-26-2009, 01:14 AM
ok. with this statement i figured you were-



i have been pretty clear that a sample size of 70 KIA concentrated around akron ohio isnt accurate of our entire enlisted military. i stand by that.

as for the second point, i totally agree, and find it a bit disgusting that yet another one of these discussions gor drug down to a racial matter.

one day as a society, we will be beyond that.

oh, and steelwall, i have also noticed a higher proportion of asians and islanders in the military (air force) primarilly amerasians whose fathers served in korea, vietnam, or done tdy time overseas and married someone they met over there.

about 1/5th of my employees (8 of 40) are asian dependants who have gained citizenship via their military husbands. just about each one of them has a child who has or currently serves in the military. those are just my employees now. ive had many more in the past.

it seems taht none of them have needed much of a recruiter to convince them to join. growing up as military brats, they have seen it is an honorable and successful way to go w/o much poking and prodding.

but unlike revs w/o proper research, i will not throw out a generalized blanket statement as "the military seems disproportionately higher with asians" in hopes that it sticks as undisputable fact.

he asked a question and i answered it. that is that.


That law about gaining citizenship for service is fairly new.... I knew a crapload of Phillipino airborne soldiers (great soldiers) but thought that it was a shitty deal they serve and don't get citizenship......


HEY!!!!!! just found the sollution for illegal immigartion make them all serve in the armed forces to gain citizenship!!!!! Who's with me???

Preacher
05-26-2009, 01:36 AM
it seems taht none of them have needed much of a recruiter to convince them to join. growing up as military brats, they have seen it is an honorable and successful way to go w/o much poking and prodding.


Tell ya this much... growing up military completely changes a mindset. It also changed how I interacted with people. I can sit down and talk to somebody, and within minutes, it is like we are long lost friends, many times when that happens, I find out they are military or military brats. There is just some kind of connection there. It is really interesting.

I don't know if you grew up military, but if you have worked on AFB's long enough, you might know exactly what I am talking about (meaning you are like that too).

STEEL.. yea, I think that is a great idea. Want to be a citizen? Sign up to serve a 6 year stint in the military first. You can bring your wife, children, parents, and siblings (who are NOT of age yet). Yeah, I think that would work out well.

tony hipchest
05-26-2009, 02:37 AM
I don't know if you grew up military, but if you have worked on AFB's long enough, you might know exactly what I am talking about (meaning you are like that too).

..

:yep: i know exactly what you are talking about. i work at the exact same air force base i was born on. the only other 2 places i have called home (other than college) are vandenberg afb and davis-monthan afb.
oddly enough, my mom was born at davis-monthan, where, as a baby, eisenhower kissed her, while on his campaign trail. her dad retired from holloman, after turning down a lucrative post in washington dc. at that time he was the youngest enlisted man to ever climb to the ranks of chief.

after 20+ years, and being in charge of loading and sending back all the body bags from nam, he finally got sick of all the politics behind it and not so politely declined the promotion.

instead of going to college, my dad joined the military just to get out of pittsburgh. he wound up in po-dunk new mexico.

funny how life works. after almost 35 years he will be moving back here next year, and i wish i could live in pittsburgh...

i must say, from my own personal experience that the military is more integrated, diverse, and open, than any other aspect of society i have been exposed to, or lived in.

but thats just me and i wont try to inflict it on everyone else.

revefsreleets
05-26-2009, 08:40 AM
It was merely an observation, and an interesting one because WHAT I OBSERVED LOCALLY DIFFERED FROM WHAT THE POP PRESS HAS BEEN SPOONFEEDING us.

Anyway, no disrespect to the fallen intended.

Perhaps you could draw us a map, Tony?

Dino 6 Rings
05-26-2009, 11:10 AM
I think its a Federal Conspiracy started by the Former Administration to get people to join up without having to have a Draft by destroying the Economy and leaving young men and women fresh out of highschool or even college with the prospect of going into a dead economy where hundreds of thousands of jobs are being shredded, or go into the Military because the Federal Government is one of the only sectors showing any employment Growth.

So instead of drafting, you force those who are in dire economic straits to either flip burgers or go dodge bullets. One pays more and has health insurance, the other, well sucks and gives you pimples.

Its all the Federal Governments Doing.

By the way, when I joined it was because I was not ready for college and needed to do something different that gave me Discipline and life experience. I wanted to Serve my country and make my Family Proud. So that could be the reason people join too and it might not be the Fed's fault at all. But if that's the case then I'm wearing this tin foil hat for nothing.

Godfather
05-26-2009, 11:20 AM
That law about gaining citizenship for service is fairly new.... I knew a crapload of Phillipino airborne soldiers (great soldiers) but thought that it was a shitty deal they serve and don't get citizenship......


HEY!!!!!! just found the sollution for illegal immigartion make them all serve in the armed forces to gain citizenship!!!!! Who's with me???

I said that during the amnesty debate. They should have a deal where if you're here illegally you can enlist and serve honorably and all will be forgiven. (Same deal should be offered to anyone who rats out a "Mexican" who speaks Spanish with a Middle Eastern accent.)

stlrtruck
05-26-2009, 11:43 AM
Let's face it, more people are joining the military because as long as you play by the rules, it's got better job security than civilian life.

That and great dental!

trauben
05-26-2009, 01:27 PM
talk with Trauben. She's still active Navy and may have some more insight.

She's a Chief in the Navy...so she could be out doing some kind of Ops...and if I remember right about her MOS/work, she'll spend a lot of time in and out to sea.
WHOA there xfl............. "WAS" a Chief in the Navy. I'm a vet these days.

Im at A school in San Antonio, TX right now, and Im freaking roomed up with 3 people in a hotel sized room. Two rooms are connected through the bathroom, which totals up to 6 people in a freaking small room. And now im getting kicked out of my school and I had to choose another job, and almost every single job is overmanned, and the only one I could get was Yeoman.
Interesting. Now I'm going to have to pick your brain.

First off, "Welcome Aboard!"

Secondly? You've got a PM.