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Fire Haley
06-01-2009, 09:25 AM
Without the prior approval of Congress or any legislation authorizing the act, President Obama plans to announce on Monday that the federal government will take a 60-percent ownership stake in General Motors as part of a bankruptcy and reorganization plan for the company.

The White House on Sunday night announced that the plan will require the federal government to provide another $30 billion of taxpayer money to General Motors, on top of the $20 billion in aid the federal government already has given the company.

In December, Congress failed to pass legislation authorizing a federal bailout of the auto industry.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=48878

-----------------------------------

GM becomes Government Motors.

Welcome to Corporate Welfare

revefsreleets
06-01-2009, 09:57 AM
Big (gest?) Government will save us all.

I expect by time the government is done with them, GM will be producing cars just about as relaible as the Russian Zhilguli. Thanks, Obama!

hindes204
06-01-2009, 10:10 AM
and with President Obama running GM, we're going to get little two-door cars that nobody wants to buy...and UAW chief Ron Gettelfinger has made it plain that his powerful union won't let these cars be manufactured in low-cost non-union plants...which means the little cars that nobody wants, wont be profitable anyway

MACH1
06-01-2009, 10:17 AM
It will be forever known as Government Motors.

And I think its more like 70% ownership?

revefsreleets
06-01-2009, 10:24 AM
These are some excellent points. Also worth noting: Should we actually be force-fed a bunch of little 2-door specs that nobody wants, do you think gas prices will stay at $2.50? I guarantee if the average car starts getting 50% better fuel economy, the average price of a gallon of gas will go up...oh, I don't know....maybe 50%? Maybe more, actually, because the cars will need less.

This may SEEM like a good thing until you start figuring some other things into the equation, like the fact that Global Warming is actually caused by the sun. And that the new little cars will probably be not a penny cheaper than the cars we have on the road today, and may actually be MORE expensive. So we get soaked across the board with:

1) Ugly little cars that we don't really like that...
2) Are expensive and...
3) Get great gas mileage except that...
4) Gas will be $6 a gallon

Fire Haley
06-01-2009, 11:11 AM
Vrooom vrooom

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/GM_Small_Car.sff_NYBZ192_20090529111632.jpg

Fire Haley
06-01-2009, 11:19 AM
Now the dominoes tumble


General Motors to close or idle 12 more plants

DETROIT – General Motors Corp. said Monday it will permanently close nine more plants and idle three others to trim production and labor costs under bankruptcy protection.

Six of the plants are in GM's home state of Michigan, which has already been hard-hit by job cuts in the auto industry.

GM's assembly plant in Wilmington, Del., will close in July, followed by its Pontiac, Mich., pickup truck plant in October.

Assembly plants in Spring Hill, Tenn., and Orion, Mich., will end production this fall but remain on "standby," meaning workers can be called back should the company need to increase production. One of those plants would be retooled to produce a subcompact vehicle that GM had originally planned to build in China.

Five GM powertrain plants, which make engines and transmissions, will close by December 2010. They are in Livonia, Flint and Ypsilanti Township, Mich.; Parma, Ohio; and Fredericksburg, Va.

Parts stamping plants in Indianapolis and Mansfield, Ohio, also will close starting next year. A stamping plant in Pontiac, Mich., will shut down production by December 2010 but remain in standby status.

In addition to the closures revealed Monday, a powertrain plant in Massena, N.Y., closed May 1, and GM previously announced the closure of a Grand Rapids, Mich., stamping plant, slated to shut down this month.

GM said it will also close service and parts warehouses in Boston, Jacksonville, Fla., and Columbus, Ohio, by the end of this year.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090601/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_plant_closures_6

steelreserve
06-01-2009, 12:27 PM
they file for bankruptcy, yet somehow their shares are up almost 20% today. This is particularly frustrating to me, as a couple weeks ago, I bought several hundred sell options. Who the hell is buying this?

revefsreleets
06-01-2009, 12:42 PM
Unlike with Chrysler, though, Obama didn't make the mistake of promising no jobs would be lost.

Just as a reminder to the Obamaites, your boy promised zero Chrysler jobs would be lost in the bankruptcy, then almost IMMEDIATELY it was announced that a bunch of plants would be closing, NONE in Mexico or Canada, though.

steelreserve
06-01-2009, 01:26 PM
Well, if you needed to save a few billion dollars a year, which plant would you close? The one in the U.S. that would save you $1 billion, or the one in Mexico that would save you a fifth of that? The insistence on keeping as many auto plants as possible filled with highly paid American union workers is what got the companies into this mess in the first place. If that was allowed to continue, they'd be right back in trouble again.

Sorry, but I don't feel much sympathy for the "U.S. job loss" in this case, because the workers and the greedy union basically brought this on themselves.

revefsreleets
06-01-2009, 02:46 PM
Here's my major problem with it.

Obama said "No US job losses for Chrysler".

Two days later, they closed like six US plants.

He lied.

AND...Obama said it was time to "rollback NAFTA" and insinuated that was something he would definitely do.

Then he closed six US plants and left the Canadian and Mexican plants open.

He lied again. a Twofer on this one...

steelreserve
06-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Well, OK, on that front, you have every right to be pissed. I guess I kind of lost track of the original point of your post while I was bitching about the unions. Sorry about that.

OMGbama and his administration are taking full advantage of the fact that people are panicked ... basically doing whatever they want and banking on the fact that they're immune from criticism by stamping "emergency" on most of their major actions. So far, it seems to have mostly worked.

Funny how when it was a Republican government behaving in essentially the same way after 9/11 (a much bigger emergency if you ask me), there was an absolute shitstorm from the liberals about how outrageous it was, and the president was a liar and a torturer, and it was the worst administration ever. Not so much when their own guy is the one doing it.

On the bright side, it does seem like in the last national emergency, even Bush got a year or so grace period before people started questioning him and the shitstorm started. So maybe that means after a few more months of this, people will be fed up and start holding OMGbama accountable too, instead of treating him like he walks on water.

Hammer67
06-01-2009, 04:36 PM
Well, if you needed to save a few billion dollars a year, which plant would you close? The one in the U.S. that would save you $1 billion, or the one in Mexico that would save you a fifth of that? The insistence on keeping as many auto plants as possible filled with highly paid American union workers is what got the companies into this mess in the first place. If that was allowed to continue, they'd be right back in trouble again.

Sorry, but I don't feel much sympathy for the "U.S. job loss" in this case, because the workers and the greedy union basically brought this on themselves.

To be fair, the company had a hand in negotiating with the UAW, thus providing those big contracts. They helped creat the greed. It's hard to give someone a certain wage and expect them to be content when you want to take it away. That being said, does anyone need any further proof that unions are unecessary and actually costly to the US economy?

Suddenly, I am flashing back to 1975, Pittsburgh....although it is another industry.. :doh:

steelreserve
06-01-2009, 05:28 PM
To be fair, the company had a hand in negotiating with the UAW, thus providing those big contracts. They helped creat the greed. It's hard to give someone a certain wage and expect them to be content when you want to take it away. That being said, does anyone need any further proof that unions are unecessary and actually costly to the US economy?

Suddenly, I am flashing back to 1975, Pittsburgh....although it is another industry.. :doh:

Yeah, and out here in California, the police/firefighters/teachers unions have bankrupted entire cities. Granted, those are more essential jobs than that of autoworker, but there are plenty of cases here where rookie firemen will be making $100,000 as a starting salary with guaranteed raises, plus $50,000 more in overtime since union rules prohibit the city from fixing the problem by instating more flexible hours. Then when they retire, they end up with $200,000-a-year pensions.

One city I used to work on was on the verge of bankruptcy, so they asked to temporarily hold off on pay increases for police and firemen. Not even pay cuts, mind you -- just no more raises this year -- but the union still fought them and forced them to give all the firefighters raises, and sure enough, the city went broke. Then in the same city, the school superintendent squandered $60 million and bankrupted the school district. They fired her on the spot for gross negligence, but thanks to the teachers' union, they had to keep paying her almost $200,000 a year for 18 months. A few months in, they found out she'd gotten another job with a different city, but the union still insisted they keep paying her. Bunch of crap.

And this is just public unions, to say nothing of the union that made it so my old roommate was making $42 an hour for doing construction work, whether they had a job that day or not. And let's face it, this was not exactly skilled labor; in fact, most of the time he showed up stoned.

Pissed me off to no end when I had two jobs -- one behind the counter of a pharmacy and the other writing for a newspaper -- and the guy was still bringing home more than twice as much as me. Thanks, union.

KeiselPower99
06-01-2009, 09:30 PM
Government Motors was born today and notice how Ford didnt take bailout money and look how good they are doing. Anyone ready to spend 40 grand on that all electric Chevy Volt next year??

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
06-01-2009, 11:22 PM
I've always liked Ford better. Better cars, and it looks like much more integrity as well.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
06-01-2009, 11:53 PM
I think they just need to reduce the price of their vehicles so average people can afford a new car

Preacher
06-02-2009, 12:24 AM
I think they just need to reduce the price of their vehicles so average people can afford a new car
How?

They owe so much to the unions and regulatory rules etc. that they cant AFFORD to build a car for any less money.

MACH1
06-02-2009, 12:31 AM
Since I'm an owner now, I want my free company car!

KeiselPower99
06-02-2009, 09:28 AM
Since I'm an owner now, I want my free company car!

:drink: My thoughts exactly. Did anyone get asked if we wanted to buy this companies? I know I wasnt invited to a town hall meeting about it. Was any of you? Hate to say it but we the people dont own GM the Government owns em.

MasterOfPuppets
06-02-2009, 10:13 AM
How?

They owe so much to the unions and regulatory rules etc. that they cant AFFORD to build a car for any less money. well they could start by taking a hard look at the people that have a coffee mug in thier hand all day, and sit in an air conditioned office.. i installed some floors a few years ago, for some fatcat from detroit that was building his retirement home. i'd be willing to bet that 10 of the guys that actually have to use thier hands and sweat , could pull all thier money together and afford to build the house, let alone the 110 acres it was being built on.

GBMelBlount
06-02-2009, 10:28 AM
I think they just need to reduce the price of their vehicles so average people can afford a new car

More words of wisdom from the resident "Chance Gardener"......:chuckle:

SteelMember
06-02-2009, 10:41 AM
General Motors in tentative deal to sell Hummer
NEW YORK — General Motors Corp. said Tuesday that it has tentatively agreed to sell its Hummer brand, a day after the U.S. automaker filed for bankruptcy protection with hopes that it will transform its most profitable assets into a new company within just 30 days.

The Detroit-based company did not name the proposed buyer or the price, but said the sale will likely save more than 3,000 U.S. jobs in manufacturing, engineering and at various Hummer dealerships.

Critics had seized on the rugged but fuel-inefficient Hummer as a symbol of excess as GM's financial troubles grew and gas prices rose. Sales at Hummer, which is known for hulking sport utility vehicles like the H3, have been in a steep slide since gasoline prices rose to record heights last summer. For the first four months of this year, Hummer sales are down 67 percent.

GM and other automakers will report May auto sales later Tuesday.

A sale of the Hummer brand had been expected. Chief Executive Fritz Henderson had said in April that the automaker was expecting final bids from three potential buyers within the month.

Other terms of the transaction, which is currently tied to a memorandum of understanding, were not disclosed.

The unnamed buyer is planning to "aggressively" finance Hummer's future product programs, according to GM.

"I'm confident that Hummer will thrive globally under its new ownership. And for GM, this sale continues to accelerate the reinvention of GM into a leaner, more focused and more cost-competitive automaker," Troy Clarke, president of GM North America, said in a statement.

GM is also trying to sell its Saab and Saturn brands and will phase out its Pontiac brand as it concentrates on its Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC nameplates.

In advance of Monday's bankruptcy filing by GM, the automaker had agreed on a deal to sell a majority interest in its Adam Opel GmbH unit in Europe.

Under that plan, Canada's Magna International Inc. would get a 20 percent stake in Opel and state-controlled Russian lender Sberbank would take a 35 percent stake. GM will retain a 35 percent holding, while the remaining 10 percent will go to Opel employees.

The proposed deal for Hummer will allow it to continue to contract vehicle manufacturing and business services from GM during the transition process.

The Hummer sale is expected to close by the third quarter's end.

GM sought court protection from its creditors on Monday under Chapter 11 of the U.S. bankruptcy code. The company said it hopes to reshape the company within a month and emerge from reorganization in 60 to 90 days as a profitable entity with fewer employees, factories and dealers.


http://www.ajc.com/business/content/shared-gen/ap/Finance_General/US_General_Motors_Hummer.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab _newstab

steelreserve
06-02-2009, 12:42 PM
well they could start by taking a hard look at the people that have a coffee mug in thier hand all day, and sit in an air conditioned office.. i installed some floors a few years ago, for some fatcat from detroit that was building his retirement home. i'd be willing to bet that 10 of the guys that actually have to use thier hands and sweat , could pull all thier money together and afford to build the house, let alone the 110 acres it was being built on.

Hey, why not get rid of all the management at all companies everywhere. Because everyone knows the only honorable work is a blue-collar job or some kind of social work, or anything else where you can grumble about the wealthy all day and how unfair it all is.

After all, these companies could pretty much run themselves, right? Everyone with a white-collar job doesn't know what they're doing and got all their money by being lucky.

Fire Haley
06-02-2009, 01:59 PM
Before anyone asks - no - the Hummer shares nothing with the military Humvee. (High-Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle)

The military Humvee is made by AM General Corporation in Mishawaka , Indiana.

Dino 6 Rings
06-02-2009, 02:08 PM
"we have no interest in running GM."

Fire Haley
06-02-2009, 02:23 PM
No problem. China is our friend.

"Damn Chinese made crap!"

http://www.carstuckgirls.com/Jet_Ski_girls_mud_stuck_with_two_Hummer_H2_015.jpg

MasterOfPuppets
06-02-2009, 02:52 PM
Hey, why not get rid of all the management at all companies everywhere. Because everyone knows the only honorable work is a blue-collar job or some kind of social work, or anything else where you can grumble about the wealthy all day and how unfair it all is.

After all, these companies could pretty much run themselves, right? Everyone with a white-collar job doesn't know what they're doing and got all their money by being lucky.
somebody here is whining out of jealousy... but it ain't me...

And this is just public unions, to say nothing of the union that made it so my old roommate was making $42 an hour for doing construction work, whether they had a job that day or not. And let's face it, this was not exactly skilled labor; in fact, most of the time he showed up stoned.

Pissed me off to no end when I had two jobs -- one behind the counter of a pharmacy and the other writing for a newspaper -- and the guy was still bringing home more than twice as much as me. Thanks, union. :crying01: pot ... meet kettle...:coffee:

revefsreleets
06-02-2009, 04:23 PM
We've all gone over the myriad reasons GM was wrecked. The greedy unions are just as culpable as the greedy management.

The question now becomes, how much worse it become when the government gets done driving this company further into the ground?

steelreserve
06-02-2009, 04:27 PM
somebody here is whining out of jealousy... but it ain't me...

I had thought the sarcasm of my post was pretty impossible to miss. I wasn't complaining about white-collar workers earning higher pay. I was complaining about the blue-collar folks who think they're better than the white-collar folks and attempt to prove it by whining about how much the white-collar people make and how little they know.

pot ... meet kettle...:coffee:

That was me complaining about a guy who was getting paid far more than he was worth BECAUSE OF A UNION. Totally different concept.

MasterOfPuppets
06-02-2009, 05:45 PM
I had thought the sarcasm of my post was pretty impossible to miss. I wasn't complaining about white-collar workers earning higher pay. I was complaining about the blue-collar folks who think they're better than the white-collar folks and attempt to prove it by whining about how much the white-collar people make and how little they know.



That was me complaining about a guy who was getting paid far more than he was worth BECAUSE OF A UNION. Totally different concept.
ok answer these three questions...

1 if every GM office worker took a day off work the same day, would cars still be able to be built?

2. if every GM assembly line worker took a day of work the same day, would cars still be able to be built?

3 what does GM sell to make money ?

Dino 6 Rings
06-02-2009, 06:08 PM
Never considered myself a fan of Ford...til now.

steelreserve
06-02-2009, 06:18 PM
ok answer these three questions...

1 if every GM office worker took a day off work the same day, would cars still be able to be built?

For one day, probably. Once it came time to, say, pay the bills or deal with suppliers, not so much.

2. if every GM assembly line worker took a day of work the same day, would cars still be able to be built?

(no response needed to dignify that)

3 what does GM sell to make money ?

That must be a trick question, because they're sure not making any money selling cars.

Actually, when they made anything in recent years, most of it was from financing and insurance. You know, the part run by the good-for-nothing white-collar people who just sit around all day doing nothing.

Really, I don't get the attitude some people have about this. "Well, these people make good salaries and don't have a job involving manual labor, so I'm BETTER than them. They're all stupid and lazy and evil! Yeah! I sure showed 'em!"

It's like ... OK, champ. You go ahead and think that. Were you also one of the kids who thought you weren't "cool" if you got good grades? Because that's basically what this amounts to.

Dino 6 Rings
06-02-2009, 06:32 PM
Really, I don't get the attitude some people have about this. "Well, these people make good salaries and don't have a job involving manual labor, so I'm BETTER than them. They're all stupid and lazy and evil! Yeah! I sure showed 'em!"

It's like ... OK, champ. You go ahead and think that. Were you also one of the kids who thought you weren't "cool" if you got good grades? Because that's basically what this amounts to.

I agree, I mean, making the car is just part of it.

You've got to order the parts, pay the venders, pay the employees, have HR take care of employees, also pay invoices, send invoices, process invoices, collect on invoices, plan sales, distribute to market, advertise, work warranty items, work on new designs, safety, meet regulations, so on and so forth.

One could argue, the bottom guy on the pole should be the grunt turning the bolts and watching machines mass produce cars. I mean, who bought the machine? Who built it, who shipped it to the factory? Who ordered the parts for the bolt driver, for the metal presses, who ordered the nuts and bolts. Not Johnny on the assembly line. That's for sure. He turns a bolt. That's his job. Pay him for that job, not for being in a Union.

MasterOfPuppets
06-02-2009, 06:34 PM
Really, I don't get the attitude some people have about this. "Well, these people make good salaries and don't have a job involving manual labor, so I'm BETTER than them. They're all stupid and lazy and evil! Yeah! I sure showed 'em!"

It's like ... OK, champ. You go ahead and think that. Were you also one of the kids who thought you weren't "cool" if you got good grades? Because that's basically what this amounts to. i figured since you are the one that deemed your roomy not worthy of his high salary than yours, you should pretty be qualified to answer that one. ... i find it kind of ammussing how YOU can look down your nose and gage others worth, but yet you act appauld that others are capable of it ... i believe there's a word for that.. :scratchchin: ...hypocrite maybe ? :noidea:

Were you also one of the kids who thought you weren't "cool" if you got good grades?were you one of the nerds that got beat up alot?

Dino 6 Rings
06-02-2009, 06:34 PM
Who's paying the Electric Bill each month? Who's paying the water bill? Who's paying for that vending machine in the Union Break Room? Who's keeping all the books in check and making sure everyone is paid every friday? Some Geek with a Coffee mug that's who. If it was just as easy as a bunch of "blue collar" guys building cars, it would be done that way. It isn't. You need people that Run the Operation while the Bolt Turners do their jobs.

Who bought the land the factory is on? Who's paying that Rent? Who is paying the Heating bill in the winter in Detroit? Who's paying the AC Bill in the hot summer months? Not Johnny on the Assembly line, that's for sure.

MasterOfPuppets
06-02-2009, 06:44 PM
Who's paying the Electric Bill each month? Who's paying the water bill? Who's paying for that vending machine in the Union Break Room? Who's keeping all the books in check and making sure everyone is paid every friday? Some Geek with a Coffee mug that's who. If it was just as easy as a bunch of "blue collar" guys building cars, it would be done that way. It isn't. You need people that Run the Operation while the Bolt Turners do their jobs.

Who bought the land the factory is on? Who's paying that Rent? Who is paying the Heating bill in the winter in Detroit? Who's paying the AC Bill in the hot summer months? Not Johnny on the Assembly line, that's for sure.so what it all boils down to is one job is no more important than the other.....:scratchchin: without the assembly line doing there job, there is no plant....without the office personel...there is no plant..... :noidea: but yet its always the grunt being asked to bite the bullet...and take one for the team

Dino 6 Rings
06-02-2009, 06:51 PM
so what it all boils down to is one job is no more important than the other.....:scratchchin: without the assembly line doing there job, there is no plant....without the office personel...there is no plant..... :noidea: but yet its always the grunt being asked to bite the bullet...and take one for the team

I'm not sure that's accurate either, about the "grunt" biting the bullet. Office jobs are shipped over seas as often as manufacturing jobs.

example, Home Depot, their accounts payable department, its in India now. So the guy working in the Store, his job is safe, the Geek in the office crunching numbers, yeah...pink slip.

Also, Middle Management in the Office World is Hammered come downsizing time. People are fired and the employees that did report to them, are doubled or even trippled up on some other poor sap that keeps his job at the same pay rate with 3 times the world load now after the downsizing.

It hits everyone hard. From Office to Factory. I've done both jobs, turned the bolts, bought the bolts. Both have their own little world and own rules, but in the end, we all have familes to feed and lives to live and need each other for the Business to thrive. That should be the goal of every employee. Not just to earn the paycheck, but for the Business that his paying our Salary to Survive and Flurish and Earn even more money.

MasterOfPuppets
06-02-2009, 07:10 PM
actually dino, the whole exchange is over the evil union forcing the company to pay the grunts a fair wage.... some here suggest that if those greedy bastards would just accept a poverty level income, all would happy in motorcity... i suggested that maybe the guys sittin in the offices drinkin coffee could take the paycut, but of course everyone knows a college guy used to making high 6 digit or 7 digit salaries including bonuses could never survive it....:coffee:

but in the end, we all have familes to feed and lives to live and need each other for the Business to thrive. exactly....but why is it the guy making 90 grand a year is overpaid, and should take a paycut because his salary "hurts" the company, but yet its unheard of for guy in the office to sacrifice part of his million dollar a year salary?

i had an ex girlfriend one time tell me its not fair that i made so much money than she did. she worked at a bank, i'm a union construction worker. i asked her if it's ever 0 degrees in her office. i asked her if its ever 100 degrees in her office. i asked how many injuries she's ever recieved in her office. i asked her how many near what would have been deadly accidents she's had in her office.......i reminded her about the 3 weeks paid vacation she gets, i get 0, i reminded her about the five paid sick days and 3 paid personal days she gets...i get 0 .....she shut up..

Hammer67
06-03-2009, 10:19 AM
Hey, why not get rid of all the management at all companies everywhere. Because everyone knows the only honorable work is a blue-collar job or some kind of social work, or anything else where you can grumble about the wealthy all day and how unfair it all is.

After all, these companies could pretty much run themselves, right? Everyone with a white-collar job doesn't know what they're doing and got all their money by being lucky.

You point out the hypocrisy of the Union stance when I talk to an auto worker here…deflection. In fact, at Ford HQ, they were laying off white collar employees by the boat loads and eliminating layers of middle management.

The point is, the UAW membership counts in the 10's of thousands…the rich management is a striking minority in comparison.

I still ask, why should a high school dropout be "entitled to" $70,000+ a year to pop rivets into sheet metal all day long while I should have to be content with an inferior salary because I am a college educated, white collar employee who handles my own employment negotiations???

Hammer67
06-03-2009, 10:26 AM
so what it all boils down to is one job is no more important than the other.....:scratchchin: without the assembly line doing there job, there is no plant....without the office personel...there is no plant..... :noidea: but yet its always the grunt being asked to bite the bullet...and take one for the team

It boils down to the fact that plant workers in Brazil can do as good of a job, if not better then UAW workers, for a third of the pay. It's supply and demand.

Some of those "white collar" folks come highly recruited for their abilities...can't say the same for the line worker.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not denegrating their jobs or skills. Just pointing out the fact that in many cases, I could go down to the floor and be able to install seats in a Mazda 6 with a couple days of on the job training. Is that line worker going to be able to run a financing division, or even an IT server group, with a couple days on the job training?

Come on man. Supply and demand should dictate salaries...not unions.

And, BTW, I don't know what planet your living on now, but here in Detroit, they (Big 3) have been laying off white collar jobs by the THOUSANDS!

Hammer67
06-03-2009, 10:36 AM
actually dino, the whole exchange is over the evil union forcing the company to pay the grunts a fair wage.... some here suggest that if those greedy bastards would just accept a poverty level income, all would happy in motorcity... i suggested that maybe the guys sittin in the offices drinkin coffee could take the paycut, but of course everyone knows a college guy used to making high 6 digit or 7 digit salaries including bonuses could never survive it....:coffee:

exactly....but why is it the guy making 90 grand a year is overpaid, and should take a paycut because his salary "hurts" the company, but yet its unheard of for guy in the office to sacrifice part of his million dollar a year salary?


Now that is flat out ignorant of reality. You realize that 95% of white collar and middle management make nowhere near that, right? You realize that bonuses and raises were suspended at Ford, right?? You realize white collar doesn't get pensions anymore, right??


In fact, when I was working at Ford HQ in Dearborn (In IT at their data center), I was making far less then your average line worker...and, days off?? Dude, the Union has them shut the plants down for two weeks and they even get days off for hunting season!!!!!!

I still say, supply and demand should dictate. No one is "entitled" to a cetain wage. That's the difference in philosophy. Union guys feel they are "owed" a wage. WTF? Don't you EARN a wage??? Doesn't the market decide what is fair???? It does in my world. And, if I didn't like what I was making....I find another job.

I think we do need fair wages...which is why I think the UAW needs to wake up and realize that the business model of these companies can no longer support the excess.

steelreserve
06-03-2009, 11:08 AM
i'm a union construction worker.

:sofunny: :sofunny: :sofunny:

Well, I guess that explains THAT. And to think for a minute, I thought you might have had something besides blatant self-interest behind your opinion of the glorious working man.

Nope -- exactly like I said in my first post. We're better than you educated folks with yer book learnin'. Thanks for living up to the stereotype!

KeiselPower99
06-03-2009, 01:26 PM
Before anyone asks - no - the Hummer shares nothing with the military Humvee. (High-Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle)

The military Humvee is made by AM General Corporation in Mishawaka , Indiana.

I heard someone bring that up last night and nice to see a response for it.

Fire Haley
06-03-2009, 01:41 PM
I am a fountain of truth.

Google is my friend.

GBMelBlount
06-03-2009, 02:11 PM
MasterOfPuppets

actually dino, the whole exchange is over the evil union forcing the company to pay the grunts a fair wage.... some here suggest that if those greedy bastards would just accept a poverty level income, all would happy in motorcity...

Are there execs that get paid way too much? Sure.

I'm sorry MOP, but I just don't see what's wrong with paying people minimum wage for jobs that almost anyone can do.

If someone doesn't like it they can go back to school, hone their skill set, start their own business or whatever to change and improve their situation.

No disrespect to you my friend, that's just how I feel.

Hammer Of The GODS
06-03-2009, 03:01 PM
ok answer these three questions...

1 if every GM office worker took a day off work the same day, would cars still be able to be built?

2. if every GM assembly line worker took a day of work the same day, would cars still be able to be built?

3 what does GM sell to make money ?

I see how you THINK your making a point. Indeed the PRODUCTION of cars comes to a halt for a day if the "floor guys" "grunts" "blue collar" people were out for a day. BUT, that same day off work for the "white collars" puts EVERYTHING behind for days and even weeks. I too have worked both sides of the fence and I know what it takes to get the job done on both sides.

Just pointing out the fact that in many cases, I could go down to the floor and be able to install seats in a Mazda 6 with a couple days of on the job training. Is that line worker going to be able to run a financing division, or even an IT server group, with a couple days on the job training?

Union guys feel they are "owed" a wage. WTF? Don't you EARN a wage??? Doesn't the market decide what is fair???? It does in my world. And, if I didn't like what I was making....I find another job.

I think we do need fair wages...which is why I think the UAW needs to wake up and realize that the business model of these companies can no longer support the excess.

Very good points. It's apples and oranges. I have neighbors who act like thier INFLATED wages are written in the bible. It makes me sick.



I have never had a union job. MY SKILLS always dictated my wage. I spent 15 years in construction and I made a good living off of non union wages. When I see some guy in a union doin the same job for almost twice the pay, it pisses me off. Not just because of the wage difference, but the fact that I am EARNING my wage and have to work harder because the harder I work the more I get paid. Yet my union counterpart is snacking on cheetos knowing his union has got his back. It's BS no matter how you look at it. Add to that the fact that I have to watch what the over inflated union wages have done to this country, then my pissed turns into disgust!

So if the union workers who are losing thier jobs want my sympathy they have a better chance at catching a fart in a wind storm.

If you can't see that unions are bad for this country then you're an idiot OR you're in a union.

If I want a job done right I hire a non union worker because the union worker is more likely to have subpar skills because he has the union to keep his job and therefore has no motivation to better his skillset.

.

Hammer67
06-03-2009, 03:12 PM
HOTG,

My brother in-law, an electrician, feels the same way you do. He is a extremely hard worker and avoids union type labor for this reason. He got the "Slow down, your making us look bad" line a few times during his career.

You would think the country would have learned all this from what happened to the steel industry...

SteelMember
06-05-2009, 12:46 PM
AP Source: GM to sell Saturn brand to Roger Penske
By TOM KRISHER

AP Auto Writer

DETROIT A person briefed on the deal says General Motors Corp. will sell its Saturn brand to former race car driver and dealership chain owner Roger Penske.

GM has scheduled a 9 a.m. EDT conference call with Saturn General Manager Jill Lajdziak. The person briefed on the deal said Penske will be on the call.

Penske has said his company, Penske Automotive Group Inc. of Bloomfield Hills, Mich., is interested in the Saturn brand.

The person briefed did not want to be identified because it has yet to be made public.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/National/GM_Saturn_Penske.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

Dino 6 Rings
06-05-2009, 01:17 PM
I think this may be a great decision, selling off the brands to allow them to continue as real competition, then, they can fail and die on their own if the market dictates such.

Hammer67
06-05-2009, 01:20 PM
I think this may be a great decision, selling off the brands to allow them to continue as real competition, then, they can fail and die on their own if the market dictates such.

I agree, but they should have been allowed to fall and die before. Without goverment involvement.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
06-05-2009, 02:56 PM
Too bad Saturn is one of their better car lines.

Bad enough that GM was taken over by the Government. Worst of all, both Canada and the unions who created this mess get more shares than the American taxpayers.

KeiselPower99
06-05-2009, 08:26 PM
Hummer being sold to a Chinese company might be a bad idea. With a few upgrades the civilian Hummer can become the miltary version. P.S. I still would like my company car.

Fire Haley
06-05-2009, 08:43 PM
Hummer being sold to a Chinese company might be a bad idea. With a few upgrades the civilian Hummer can become the miltary version..

bullcrap - read the whole thread

The H2 is a Tahoe with a different body.

The H3 is a Trailblazer with a different body.

KeiselPower99
06-05-2009, 11:15 PM
bullcrap - read the whole thread

The H2 is a Tahoe with a different body.

The H3 is a Trailblazer with a different body.

Ok again you cleared up something for me. Thank you

drewcary
06-05-2009, 11:25 PM
anybody who buys anything made by the drunks and drug profanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofa nityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityf ilter in the UAW is just plain stupid.

union made = overpriced junk

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
06-06-2009, 01:32 AM
bullcrap - read the whole thread

The H2 is a Tahoe with a different body.

The H3 is a Trailblazer with a different body.

In other words they are overpriced pieces of shit. I really never understood the draw of those vehicles, they don't do anything well. You sure as hell aren't going to haul much in one, or use it for offroading. I guess it is a decent "people mover", but I would rather have a nice BMW sedan or something like that.