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UltimateFootballNetwork
06-23-2009, 03:23 AM
First, I am surprised that if you ever played the game that you find it so difficult to understand that Parker is a starting RB and Moore is a complimentary/3rd down back. :noidea: You should know by experience that trying to tackle a player like FWP is much more difficult than a guy like MM.

Second, the comparison of watching somebody fly a plane, even though you have never done it......to watching and evaluating football , even though you have never done it, is not that much of a stretch. Both are skills that are more easily misunderstood without experience.

Finally, I don't need to goto any more raw stats. I have a business degree and have taken a few stats courses. In fact one of the first things my intro stats Professor told us is "statistics can be manipulated" and that " statistically, the average human being has 1 breast and 1 testicle".

If you went back to the 80's when internet wasnt available for fantasy freaks to overanalyze statistics, you could probably tell that Chuck Muncie was the better feature back, while James Brooks was the complimtary/3rd down back. Are you serious? Seems to me that Moore is very difficult to tackle and that Parker tackles himself on half of his runs.

Preacher
06-23-2009, 03:28 AM
Are you done beating your chest? Does that change the fact that the Steelers run game was a problem and the Super Bowl was won in spite of it?

Did I ever suggest the Steelers were anything other than the winningest franchise? The Rooneys run a great franchise and thats one of the reasons I like to learn from it.

I dont beat my chest. Even though I am a fan, I can objectively see that Dan Snyder sucks and we wont win anything until he stops playing with his toy.


I guess that means you are ignoring the facts I presented... that at least half of the SB's won in this decade were won with a rush per yard in the bottom half of hte league... average.

Thus, rushing is not the most important factor for winning a SB.

I am not sure why you keep ignoring that stat.

mmalone
06-23-2009, 05:55 AM
Are you serious? Seems to me that Moore is very difficult to tackle and that Parker tackles himself on half of his runs.

you cannot debate anything here...

willie is the best.
arians is the best.
ben is the best.
the ol is the best.
the plays are the best.
the steelers are the best.
the wr are the best.
the CB,s are the best.

hopefully our team coaches dont think like this board... or we will be 8-8 this year.
thats why SB teams lose the next year.. there egos are the best.

we won 43

we will win 44... we are the best....

sounds like ochocinco..... and T.O. their teams are always the best...

HometownGal
06-23-2009, 06:11 AM
you cannot debate anything here...

willie is the best.
arians is the best.
ben is the best.
the ol is the best.
the plays are the best.
the steelers are the best.
the wr are the best.
the CB,s are the best.



You forgot one. Tomlin is the best. :flap:

You are more than welcome to debate anything you'd like, but I think a few of you are being the typical boo-birds and just looking for something - ANYTHING - to B & M about. Considering the Steelers just won their 6th Lombardi - how truly SAD. :shake02:

hopefully our team coaches dont think like this board... or we will be 8-8 this year.
thats why SB teams lose the next year.. there egos are the best.



And thank God and the moon and stars above that you and your boo-birding sidekicks aren't coaching the Steelers because they would end up with no one wanting to play for them and the franchise would go bankrupt. :horror:

Preacher
06-23-2009, 06:14 AM
You forgot one. Tomlin is the best. :flap:

You are more than welcome to debate anything you'd like, but I think a few of you are being the typical boo-birds and just looking for something - ANYTHING - to B & M about. Considering the Steelers just won their 6th Lombardi - how truly SAD. :shake02:



And thank God and the moon and stars above that you and your boo-birding sidekicks aren't coaching the Steelers. :horror:

HTG...

Didn't the owner of the board JUST INSTILL a 260 reply limit to each thread before the mods close it?

I could have SWORN I read that somewhere :hunch:





:chuckle:

Guess that was just a dream...

mmalone
06-23-2009, 06:45 AM
You forgot one. Tomlin is the best. :flap:

You are more than welcome to debate anything you'd like, but I think a few of you are being the typical boo-birds and just looking for something - ANYTHING - to B & M about. Considering the Steelers just won their 6th Lombardi - how truly SAD. :shake02:
:

You have no idea how insane of a fan i am... i just read these threads and see that everytime anyone says something constructive or debates an idea the next three posters change the story. or say, well we won the SB and bury debate like a little kid.

and yes tomlin is the best... i like him more than cowher actually.
and you do know i am not an arians fan.... because i am a fan of the fullback setup with willie... or moore. or mendy... and thats why i am not an arians fan...

fansince'76
06-23-2009, 07:16 AM
just read these threads and see that everytime anyone says something constructive or debates an idea the next three posters change the story. or say, well we won the SB and bury debate like a little kid.

Well, if you consider comparing a NFL OC to a "Pop Warner coach" and the like to be constructive criticism, I guess....

Dino 6 Rings
06-23-2009, 07:19 AM
Willie Parker isn't be best RB in the league, but he is the Best RB on the team today.

Ben isn't the best QB in the NFL, but he's a top 3 QB in the NFL and the Best QB we've had since Terry (SILENCE AND REMEMBER HIS NAME) Bradshaw.

Our Oline isn't the best in the NFL, but toward the end of the season last year they did get better, and had a pretty good Playoff Run and going into a 2nd season as a complete unit can only help them improve.

Our Defenders may not individually be the best at each position (Except Troy) but as a unit, they are the Best Defense in the NFL.

Our WRs might not be the "Best" in the league, or considered, "Elite" But two of them are SB MVPs, and as a Receiving Unit they are very good and really get the job done each week. We clearly have a need for a #3 and hopefully that is being adressed.

Tomlin is not the best HC in the History of the NFL, he needs 3 more Rings to Tie the best Coach in the History of the NFL. Tomlin is one of the best HC in the Current NFL however and only a couple guys are in the argument at this point, and that's because they also have Rings.

Our FANS are the BEST in the HISTORY of the NFL.

Our D Coordinator is the BEST in the NFL.

Our O coordinator is not the Best in the NFL, but he gets the job done, and another year of him working with our offense can only make things get better.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-23-2009, 07:36 AM
you cannot debate anything here...

.

Actually for those who KNOW how to debate instead of having hissy-fits if their opinions are challenged....it is a wonderful place to debate.

1) Give your opinion
2) Be receptive and courteous to others opinion
3) If you cant do #2...be ready to to be treated in kind.

Dont be "up in arms" about others opinions and act as if you are "enlightened" while the rest of the forum "just doesnt get it".

You say that you can't debate on this board and then say:

...hopefully our team coaches dont think like this board... or we will be 8-8 this year.

Such statements...(when you are being condescending to the whole board)...generally will take a discussion out of the realm of debate and into the realm of flaming.

I would ask that you learn to debate fairly, before whining about the way that others go about it.

mmalone
06-23-2009, 07:44 AM
Well, if you consider comparing a NFL OC to a "Pop Warner coach" and the like to be constructive criticism, I guess....

i said a pop warner coach can read the next play coming up from the steelers during a game quite easily.. i coach pop warner and i call the next plays from arians all the time..... so the pro defenses must read them as easy...

ben hits ward for 15... whats the next play.. depends on the set. but usually willie up the middle.

my point is ben is on his back alot from the lack of deception in the plays.

whats play action....??? it makes time for ben... its deceptive.

whats a draw play... ??? it opens holes for willie... be patient.

whats a counter play... ??? you let the defense blitz. be patient.. the RB or TE releases and ben hits them in the open field. Moore does this better than willie. sorry..

deception is lacking. i said in the first quarter of the super bowl we play with great deception... watch the 1st quarter... we had them on their heels into the second quarter.

thats what they need to do all season... not play the browns 10-6 with our SB offense.. thats the frustrating thing for me.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-23-2009, 09:48 AM
Are you serious? Seems to me that Moore is very difficult to tackle and that Parker tackles himself on half of his runs.

Be careful..............you just stated an "opinion".

Please leave the opinions for us less objective and less knowedgeable fans in comparison to you. :rolleyes: Just stick to the facts. :wink:

tony hipchest
06-23-2009, 09:48 AM
Are you done beating your chest? Does that change the fact that the Steelers run game was a problem and the Super Bowl was won in spite of it?

Did I ever suggest the Steelers were anything other than the winningest franchise? The Rooneys run a great franchise and thats one of the reasons I like to learn from it.

I dont beat my chest. Even though I am a fan, I can objectively see that Dan Snyder sucks and we wont win anything until he stops playing with his toy.now we're getting somewhere. what you call me beating my chest was simply illustrating the MAJOR flaw in your thinking and the exact reason dan snyder sucks. you wanna learn from the rooneys? listen up...

dan snyder is a stat wh0re who thinks games are won on paper and with paper ($$$).

he plays with toys like you play with stats. since were playing, lets compare willie to portis to further illustrate this point.

since willie became a starter 4 years ago, he has about as many total yards as clinton, more rushing yards, and just 10 fewer td's. willie had his lowest ypc this season (3.8) whereas clinton has averaged 3.9 or below twice with washington.

according to your number crunching, m. moore mightve been an even better option for washington. according to your statistical manipulation, portis blew chunks in games vs. AZ, DAL, BAL, PHI, SF, CIN, and both games vs NYG (averaging about 3.0 ypc), yet he tore up cleveland and seattle.

anyways to the point- parker pretty much = portis, and m. moore is arguably the best #3 back in the league who we signed for 3 years at the bargain price of $5 mil.

steelers have both for about half the price of portis, who had to make a statement to the media yesterday that there wasnt a rift with him and coach zorn.

not only are our 2 backs half the price, we didnt have to give up our best defender, let alone a single draft pick to acquire either.

dan snyder woulda traded troy polamalu for portis if he ran the steelers.

point is, your numbers dont mean shit when it comes to the big picture. you obviously have no idea about team concepts such as chemistry, knowing the playbook, seniority, not losing ones job due to injury, salary cap mgmt, etc.

how many playoff games has portis and all his paper stats and money won the redskins? parker put the nail in the seahawks coffin in sb XL and pretty much won the game vs the chargers last year (which was just 6 months ago).

so to sum it all up... m. moore > c. portis. :idea: i never thought of it that way! damn, the steelers are awsome!

revefsreleets
06-23-2009, 10:09 AM
Interesting reading. None of it changes the FACT that Melwelde Moore will never amount to more than a change-of-pace/3rd down back in this league no matter what team he plays for. Why? Because that is the level of talent he plays at.

You can throw up all the stats you like. Biased opinion. Statistical analysis. None of it will EVER change the cruel and cold hard fact that MM is playing the role that he is best suited for. He is NOT a starting RB in the NFL. He never cracked the starting lineup at Minnesota (although I believe he had to play off the bench and started a couple games for injured starters), and he'll never crack the starting lineup in Pittsburgh. In fact he'll drop to #3 on the depth chart this year.

I expect he'll continue to put up nice numbers though, due to the fact that he'll get looks out of passing formations, will get draws and screens, and all other benefits 3rd down backs get. But line the guy up as an every down back, ask him to pound it up the middle every down, and his stats will drop like a rock. But why would any team ask this guy to do things that aren't in his skill set? He's a better receiver than Parker, and in every other way he's a less skilled RB. I don't need "proof", I just have to look at the depth chart on every team he's played on at this level.

This isn't Tulane. This is C-USA. This is the NFL, and he's a role player. That is all.

mmalone
06-23-2009, 11:16 AM
Interesting reading. None of it changes the FACT that Melwelde Moore will never amount to more than a change-of-pace/3rd down back in this league no matter what team he plays for. Why? Because that is the level of talent he plays at.

I expect he'll continue to put up nice numbers though, due to the fact that he'll get looks out of passing formations, will get draws and screens, and all other benefits 3rd down backs get. But line the guy up as an every down back, ask him to pound it up the middle every down, and his stats will drop like a rock.

He's a better receiver than Parker, and in every other way he's a less skilled RB.

Good Point.. Thats why we dont run many counter blitz plays unless moore is the starting back, when willie was down and moore plays look at the game replays. way more counter blitz plays. moore has the hands to make those plays.

so willie when he is in has to get slammed into the middle when he is playing.. or try to reach the outside. thats why moore eventually gets his turn, willie can only take so much punishment without a blocking fullback.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-23-2009, 11:43 AM
Be careful..............you just stated an "opinion".

Please leave the opinions for us less objective and less knowedgeable fans in comparison to you. :rolleyes: Just stick to the facts. :wink: Glad you can recognize the difference between a fact and an opinion.

steelreserve
06-23-2009, 11:46 AM
the entire problem with this argument is trying to seperate football from football.

follow along...

an adequate to above average qb will hit on 60-65% of his passes. a record setter in completion percentage will hit on 70% of his throws.

what that means is if the average is 400 passes per year even the best qb is missing on 120 throws (which in your words are plays that are thrown away).

...

so willie getting stuffed at the line 100 times is about as efficient to the team as a 65% passer is.

That's not the point I'm trying to make. Believe me, I am well aware that not every play is going to gain yardage. The 100 throwaway plays I was talking about are IN ADDITION TO the normal rate of failure. A better comparison would be if the quarterback in your analogy decided to audible into a single-receiver set and then throw deep into double coverage an extra 100 times a season. That's what I mean by not having the right personnel on the field.

I really think that if you were to take 100 carries by Parker and 100 carries by a decent "all-purpose" back, about 70 of them would turn out the same, on about 5 of them Parker would do much better, and about 25 of them Parker would fail harder than usual. In the end, the yardage will come out close, but the offense will be a lot more streaky.

Now, if you could take a good portion of those 25 extra-fail carries and turn them into average plays with an average rate of failure -- remember, I'm not saying we'll gain 20 yards on every one of them, or that Bettis gained positive yards every single play, or that you'll turn into a turkey, or anything like that -- then we're getting somewhere. Maybe some of that is shifting up the personnel, some of that is varying the playcalling.

I know there are some out there who say that can't be done without telegraphing what we're doing, but that's mostly garbage. It's quite possible IF YOU DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN always use only one back at a time and only switch them in obvious situations.

wezx
06-23-2009, 12:02 PM
Actually for those who KNOW how to debate instead of having hissy-fits if their opinions are challenged....it is a wonderful place to debate.

1) Give your opinion
2) Be receptive and courteous to others opinion
3) If you cant do #2...be ready to to be treated in kind.

Dont be "up in arms" about others opinions and act as if you are "enlightened" while the rest of the forum "just doesnt get it".

You say that you can't debate on this board and then say:



Such statements...(when you are being condescending to the whole board)...generally will take a discussion out of the realm of debate and into the realm of flaming.

I would ask that you learn to debate fairly, before whining about the way that others go about it.

Furthermore..."When you throw mud at others you're going to lose a lot of ground and your hands are going to get dirty."

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-23-2009, 12:08 PM
now we're getting somewhere. what you call me beating my chest was simply illustrating the MAJOR flaw in your thinking and the exact reason dan snyder sucks. you wanna learn from the rooneys? listen up...

dan snyder is a stat wh0re who thinks games are won on paper and with paper ($$$).

he plays with toys like you play with stats. since were playing, lets compare willie to portis to further illustrate this point.

since willie became a starter 4 years ago, he has about as many total yards as clinton, more rushing yards, and just 10 fewer td's. willie had his lowest ypc this season (3.8) whereas clinton has averaged 3.9 or below twice with washington.

according to your number crunching, m. moore mightve been an even better option for washington. according to your statistical manipulation, portis blew chunks in games vs. AZ, DAL, BAL, PHI, SF, CIN, and both games vs NYG (averaging about 3.0 ypc), yet he tore up cleveland and seattle.

anyways to the point- parker pretty much = portis, and m. moore is arguably the best #3 back in the league who we signed for 3 years at the bargain price of $5 mil.

steelers have both for about half the price of portis, who had to make a statement to the media yesterday that there wasnt a rift with him and coach zorn.

not only are our 2 backs half the price, we didnt have to give up our best defender, let alone a single draft pick to acquire either.

dan snyder woulda traded troy polamalu for portis if he ran the steelers.

point is, your numbers dont mean shit when it comes to the big picture. you obviously have no idea about team concepts such as chemistry, knowing the playbook, seniority, not losing ones job due to injury, salary cap mgmt, etc.

how many playoff games has portis and all his paper stats and money won the redskins? parker put the nail in the seahawks coffin in sb XL and pretty much won the game vs the chargers last year (which was just 6 months ago).

so to sum it all up... m. moore > c. portis. :idea: i never thought of it that way! damn, the steelers are awsome! I will ignore most of the silly, irrlevant things you said and focus on your Portis comparison.

The fact that you think that Willie Parker is even in the conversation with Clinton Portis is laughable and is a clear indicator of how this board overvalues Parker. Lets put this in perspective.

CP is a year younger than WP and has twice as many all purpose yards.

This year, if CP stays healthy he will likely top 10,000 career rushing yards and top 20 all time in career rushing yards. Willie Parker is barely top 20 in active rushing yards.

WP has a little less than 5,000 yards and is surely not in the first half of his career...so there is little chance that he reaches 10,000 yards.

WP has fewer career rushing yards than Willis MacGahee, who is also a year younger than WP. And Willis Magahee is splitting carries with Ray Rice.

And for the record, I am VERY worried that Portis has taken too many hits.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-23-2009, 12:25 PM
Interesting reading. 1) None of it changes the FACT that Melwelde Moore will never amount to more than a change-of-pace/3rd down back in this league no matter what team he plays for. Why? Because that is the level of talent he plays at.

You can throw up all the stats you like. Biased opinion. Statistical analysis. 2) None of it will EVER change the cruel and cold hard fact that MM is playing the role that he is best suited for. He is NOT a starting RB in the NFL. He never cracked the starting lineup at Minnesota (although I believe he had to play off the bench and started a couple games for injured starters), and he'll never crack the starting lineup in Pittsburgh. In fact he'll drop to #3 on the depth chart this year.

3) I expect he'll continue to put up nice numbers though, due to the fact that he'll get looks out of passing formations, will get draws and screens, and all other benefits 3rd down backs get. But line the guy up as an every down back, ask him to pound it up the middle every down, and his stats will drop like a rock. But why would any team ask this guy to do things that aren't in his skill set? He's a better receiver than Parker, and in every other way he's a less skilled RB. I don't need "proof", I just have to look at the depth chart on every team he's played on at this level.

4) This isn't Tulane. This is C-USA. This is the NFL, and he's a role player. That is all. 1) No. You have stated an opinion and called it a fact.

2) MM started most of the year in 2005 under Mike Tice. Even though he split carries, he still had 1000 yds from scrimmage.

3) MM has a higher YPC on 1st down than 3rd down. In fact, MM was top 10 in the NFL in YPC on 1st down. http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=2008&type=Rushing&range=NFL&rank=229

4) MM is the Tulane career leader in rushing and all-purpose yards ahead of guys like.....Matt Forte. :doh:

mmalone
06-23-2009, 12:31 PM
1) No. You have stated an opinion and called it a fact.

2) MM started most of the year in 2005 under Mike Tice. Even though he split carries, he still had 1000 yds from scrimmage.

3) MM has a higher YPC on 1st down than 3rd down. In fact, MM was top 10 in the NFL in YPC on 1st down. http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=2008&type=Rushing&range=NFL&rank=229

4) MM is the Tulane career leader in rushing and all-purpose yards ahead of guys like.....Matt Forte. :doh:

you cant get anything from the Slee Stack dude.... stats dont matter. watching the games and having opinions dont matter, if you go opinion hes goes stats, if you go stats your biased...

basically we won the super bowl and willie is great.. even if you can tackle him with a slap..... oh... opinion...

Dino 6 Rings
06-23-2009, 12:39 PM
Its clear to me that Parker is actually Better than Portis, at least since Portis has been with the Redskins.

Parker with the Steelers has an average of 4.3 yards per carry. Portis with the Redskins has a 4.1 yards per carry. Good thing he had 2 great seasons with Denver at 5.5 per carry to Pad his Career Stat up to 4.5 per carry.

using stats now. It shows that Portis is actually not doing as good as he did earlier on in his career, yards per carry.

tony hipchest
06-23-2009, 12:41 PM
I will ignore most of the silly, irrlevant things you said and focus on your Portis comparison.

The fact that you think that Willie Parker is even in the conversation with Clinton Portis is laughable and is a clear indicator of how this board overvalues Parker. Lets put this in perspective.

CP is a year younger than WP and has twice as many all purpose yards.

This year, if CP stays healthy he will likely top 10,000 career rushing yards and top 20 all time in career rushing yards. Willie Parker is barely top 20 in active rushing yards.

WP has a little less than 5,000 yards and is surely not in the first half of his career...so there is little chance that he reaches 10,000 yards.

WP has fewer career rushing yards than Willis MacGahee, who is also a year younger than WP. And Willis Magahee is splitting carries with Ray Rice.

And for the record, I am VERY worried that Portis has taken too many hits.so basically i can ignore all the silly things youve spewed and simply say moore isnt even in the conversation with willie because willie has twice as many yards? :thumbsup: which way do you want it? you have already proven that moore is a more viable option than portis.

newsflash- willie has started 4 years to clintons 8. as a 5th year pro he is SURELY in the 1st half of his career. portis on the other hand, you should be worried about.

moore is greater than portis and i see that bugs you. lets look at how portis finished the year/

11 11/16 DAL 15/ 68 /4.5
12 11/23 SEA 29/ 143 4.9
13 11/30 NYG 11/ 22/ 2.0
14 12/07 BAL 11/ 32/ 2.9
15 12/14 CIN 25/ 77/ 3.1
16 12/21 PHI 22/ 70/ 3.2
17 12/28 SF 29/ 80/ 2.8

80 yds on 29 carries? are you kidding me? averaging 2.0 vs the giants? what crap.

you should e-mail your stats to snyder. i bet he would trade next years 2nd round pick for moore and greatly increase your teams offensive output.

tony hipchest
06-23-2009, 12:45 PM
Its clear to me that Parker is actually Better than Portis, at least since Portis has been with the Redskins.

Parker with the Steelers has an average of 4.3 yards per carry. Portis with the Redskins has a 4.1 yards per carry. Good thing he had 2 great seasons with Denver at 5.5 per carry to Pad his Career Stat up to 4.5 per carry.

using stats now. It shows that Portis is actually not doing as good as he did earlier on in his career, yards per carry.portis longest run last year was 31 yards. teams dont even have to gameplan for him being a breakaway threat. whose laughing now? :laughing:

revefsreleets
06-23-2009, 12:49 PM
you cant get anything from the Slee Stack dude.... stats dont matter. watching the games and having opinions dont matter, if you go opinion hes goes stats, if you go stats your biased...

basically we won the super bowl and willie is great.. even if you can tackle him with a slap..... oh... opinion...

Here's my stat AND opinion, skippy:

Minnesota depth chart- Melwelde Moore was #2 or #3 or even #4. In fact, in 2006 when Chester Taylor went down, they replaced him with Ciatrick Fason(who is OUT OF FOOTBALL NOW), NOT Melwelde Moore.

He's listed as the #3 RB on the Steelers depth chart right now behind both Parker and Mendy.

He's a career back-up, situational back. That is NOT an opinion, that IS A FACT. Want more? In 5 years in the league, he has 404 carries, an average of 80 a year, an average of FIVE A GAME.

FIVE carries a game.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-23-2009, 12:56 PM
MM started most of the year in 2005 under Mike Tice. Even though he split carries, he still had 1000 yds from scrimmage.

:

No...actually he started exactly half the games and averaged only 9.7 carries a game. If your going to praise him...dont forget that other than this last year with the Steelers, 2005 was the only year that Moore ever had a rushing TD, and that year he had exactly......(wait for it).........1




2005!!!!
Big year for Moore!!!!!

tony hipchest
06-23-2009, 12:58 PM
portis' 2007 stats were even worse. longest run = 32 yds.

http://www.nfl.com/players/clintonportis/gamelogs?id=POR792942&season=2007

SEVEN games below 3.5 ypc including stinkers of 2.0 vs BUF, 2.1 vs CHI, 2.5 vs NE, and 2.4 vs AZ .

:scratchchin: looks like portis does nothing but pad his stats against the poorest defenses in the league.

portis almost always gets 20-25 carries when he puts up these stinkers. only 4 games 100+yds.

last year willie got 100+ yds every time but 1 that he had 20+ carries.

willie > portis

(this reminds me of the bungleclown who tried to say rudi johnson was better than willie based on the long distanced past.)

thumper
06-23-2009, 01:11 PM
FWP will never be considered a better back than Portis. CP might be winding down, having carried the rock so many times, but comparing both backs in their prime, CP is the better all-around back.

FWP lacks instincts and vision that CP has and those are major elements in a back worth.

Psyychoward86
06-23-2009, 01:13 PM
Lol, i was away from this thread for an awful long time i guess. Now we're talking Willie vs. Portis??? Who cares, Portis wont see a single ring in the future.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-23-2009, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by UltimateFootballNetwork
MM started most of the year in 2005 under Mike Tice. Even though he split carries, he still had 1000 yds from scrimmage.

Here are the are the rushing totals for the 13 games that Moore played in 2005 (He didnt play in 3 games.) Keep in mind that he started 8 of these.

1) 29 yds
2) 101 yds (against Saints,who were the 27th ranked rush defense in 2005)
3) 57 yds
4) 57 yds
5) 45 yds
6) 30 yds
7) 49 yds
8) 122 yds (against Packers...the 23rd ranked rush defense in 2005)
9) 67 yds
10) 0 yds
11) 5 yds
12) 49 yds
13) 57 yds

and with a total of 1 rushing TD.

tony hipchest
06-23-2009, 01:24 PM
FWP will never be considered a better back than Portis. CP might be winding down, having carried the rock so many times, but comparing both backs in their prime, CP is the better all-around back.

not according to UFN and his statistical analysis. infact, moore is better than both.

mmalone
06-23-2009, 02:24 PM
Interesting Read from October 1 2008, after the Eagles and Ravens Game: Covers alot of what we are rambling on about on this thread???

Did Bruce Arians Save His Job Monday?

by Blitzburgh on Oct 1, 2008 7:33 AM EDT

Let the debate continue. Apparently this conversation is worth having, as Chris Mortenson of ESPN had reported that Mike Tomlin had a conversation with his offensive coordinator about shaping up or being prepared to get shipped out. So, did he do enough Monday to save his job? Here's my take.

Barely.

The first half Monday was as bad as the Eagles game, no doubt. And when put in the context of coming after the catastrophy that was the previous Sunday, the first half against the Ravens was all the more difficult to stomach. Believe me, I feel you if you're of the mindset that the first half was more than enough to deserve a pink slip out of town. As I wrote in my previous post-game reaction, I was beyond embarassed. It wasn't that anymore. I was just kind of bored. Watching the Steelers! How bad is that? There was little to no reason to believe that things would be improving, no?

But, finally, and I mean just at the last moment, we showed a sense of urgency. We finally went no-huddle (apparently at Ben's insistence), we finally did some 3-step drops and quick dump offs to our play makers, starting of course with our first offensive TD in 8 quarters on a slant to Santonio Holmes. Holmes, the play maker that we were ooooing and ahhhing over all this summer, finally was given a chance to make a play in open space! What do you know? He did.

There were both impressive and unimpressive moments in the second half. Our 3-play series on 1st and goal in the 4th quarter was underwhelming, but in Arians' and the offenses' defense, we were down to our last RB, Mewelde Moore, who's not exactly thought of as a goal-line power back. That makes things tougher of course, particularly against a fast and smart Ravens defense that closes down small windows and running lanes in the red zone as well as anyone in the league. But those realities lead to the question: why go unimaginative there, then? Why try to pound it with our 3rd down back on 2nd and 3rd downs?

But there were great moments too. The play-calling was solid in our game-winning drive in OT. Much of the credit goes to the players of course, but by that time, the offensive line had shored things up enough that we didn't have to keep our back in there to block, freeing Moore to roam free in the passing game. Arians saw that, deployed him, and Ben looked his way in the biggest of moments, including on 3rd and long from the Ravens 35. An incompletion, or worse yet, puts us in tough FG range. We executed, got Reed in a distance he could kick smoothly from, and the rest was history.

So, there was the unthinkable - a pathetic first half in the wake of the Eagles game. And then some adjustments in the second half. But perhaps not enough to get him off the hot seat alltogether, at least with us fans. Great offenses put teams away when there's an opening. You have to in this league, as even a rookie QB named Flacco proved. We weren't able to when he had the chance.

Hopefully the coaching staff will take lots away from this game. Little things like the QB sneak Ben called for 3 yards early in the second half when the Ravens were still bringing the house at him. That was a sign of pulling out all the stops to change the flow of things for us on offense, even if it was ugly and non-traditional. The no-huddle, of course, was a sight to see. Teams will again adjust to our adjustments.

How will Arians respond? I feel he's earned himself some more time, at least two more games after the BYE, at bare minimum. Let's hope this is a non-issue moving forward and our offense will fare far better as we go to the no-huddle more often and find new and better ways to get the ball out of Ben's hands and into those of our playmakers.

The odds are against us this Sunday, but best of luck to Arians and the gang as they gameplan for a Jaguars defense that has some holes on defense compared to years past. A win before the BYE week sure would go a long way towards making us all believe that our offense can be good enough to keep up with what's turning out to be an outstanding defense.

Thoughts?

tony hipchest
06-23-2009, 02:43 PM
Thoughts?


initial thought is that tomlin does call the shots (just like before the cleveland game and SD playoff game), and arians can make adjustments and did save his job.

it woulda been foolish to fire him mid-season.

before anyone gets hung up on the no-huddle offense, we are not built to run that for 30 minutes a game.

it is not only tiring for the offense but it puts the defense on the field even longer. our defense plays with so much speed, power, and energy, they need the offense to control the ball as long as possible.

thats why we usually see it near the end of half or end of the game. we are not (nor will be) the bills k-gun offense.

fansince'76
06-23-2009, 02:53 PM
Thoughts?

Another Arians-hating fan who fancies himself to be an expert because he has a blog under the name "Blitzburgh" who's also probably played too much Madden on the X-Box and thinks he could do a better job. I felt that way last October the first time it was posted here as well.

thumper
06-23-2009, 03:42 PM
i just want on OL that can keep our qb up right. and even with our crappy ol last year we still won the superbowl.

But it's implausible a team with that weak of a rush and OL will win again any time soon.

mmalone
06-23-2009, 03:43 PM
Another Arians-hating fan who fancies himself to be an expert because he has a blog under the name "Blitzburgh" who's also probably played too much Madden on the X-Box and thinks he could do a better job. I felt that way last October the first time it was posted here as well.

what are you talking about????

does this guy hate bruce?

Arians: I'll take blame for Philadelphia fiasco

Friday, September 26, 2008

By Gerry Dulac, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Bruce Arians, blame me for Sunday's offensive woesBruce Arians wants to make clear who should be blamed for what happened in the ugly loss in Philadelphia: It wasn't the offensive line that gave up nine sacks, or the quarterback who turned the ball over three times, or the receivers who didn't pick up the hot reads.

Arians said he is to blame for the performance of his offense, which even wide receiver Hines Ward said looked "confused" in a 10-6 loss to the Eagles.

"It's Bruce Arians' fault," the Steelers' offensive coordinator said. "Just spell my name right."

Arians' comments came as he was walking off the practice field yesterday and in the wake of several days of criticism in which head coach Mike Tomlin and his staff were blamed for not being prepared for the defensive blitzes by the Eagles -- a team known for such tactics under defensive coordinator Jim Johnson.

Many of the players, even Tomlin, said the Eagles often blitzed more defenders than the Steelers were prepared to block, creating confusion in the offensive line. Even when they picked up the right player, Tomlin said, his players often lost the physical one-on-one battles.

The result: eight sacks against Ben Roethlisberger, who fumbled twice, was intercepted once and was called for a safety on an intentional-grounding penalty in the end zone. Byron Leftwich also was sacked once when he replaced Roethlisberger late in the fourth quarter.

"I'll say this: If anybody is still trying to look for a story about Philadelphia and who to blame, just spell my name correctly so [the] Philadelphia [game] can go to bed," Arians said. "Anybody who wants anybody to blame for Philadelphia, you just blame me, and then we can get ready for Baltimore," a reference to the Monday night game at Heinz Field against the Baltimore Ravens.

Asked why he is accepting the blame, Arians said, "Because I'm the offensive coordinator. I call the plays. They don't work, it's [my fault]. Don't ask any more players questions about Philadelphia. They need to think about Baltimore.

"It's all on me and it's over. So you don't have to ask any more players or anybody else."


HMMMMM. it us?? Asked why he is accepting the blame, Arians said, "Because I'm the offensive coordinator. I call the plays.

Dino 6 Rings
06-23-2009, 04:48 PM
not according to UFN and his statistical analysis. infact, moore is better than both.

I guess that's what the Stats show...at this point in their careers, Moore is better than Parker and Parker is better than Portis, therefore, Moore is a better running back than Clinton Portis too.

The Stats are what they are.

Dino 6 Rings
06-23-2009, 04:54 PM
HMMMMM. it us?? Asked why he is accepting the blame, Arians said, "Because I'm the offensive coordinator. I call the plays.

he had a bad called game, the entire offense sucked that game, I remember it vividly, it sucked to watch.

But other than the Last Drive in the Cleveland Game, where I pointed out it was the last drive play for play and we were just killing the clock, find me another poorly called game by Arians and exactly where you would have made a different call and what play call You would have made?

I can think of one drive against the Colts.

17-7 Steelers with the ball. 1st and 10 from the 8 with 1:43 left in the 1st half.
1st and 10, Run, Moore 1 yard. Time out Indy at 1:37
2nd and 9, Shotgun Pass to Spaeth, 7 Yards. Timout Indy at 1:30.
3rd and 2, at Pitt 16, Pass, Deep! INTERCEPTION!!!!!

Yeah...I really wish he would have called a Run there in that spot. Even if it didn't work, a punt would have been better than an interception at our own 32 yard line.

That's the ONE I know of. That one call is the reason I really started to bag on Arians, but other than that, game to game, he called a very good balanced game.

mmalone
06-23-2009, 05:38 PM
he had a bad called game, the entire offense sucked that game, I remember it vividly, it sucked to watch.
.

i puled those out of the browns game to late i didnt notice i was at the end.. it was 10-6 not to much action to pull from..

heres a diddy from an ESPN reporter.



"Sweed also is a winner. He is one of the few second-year players who sport both BCS Championship and Super Bowl rings. Sweed estimates that he has more than 100 career victories and just 20 losses on his résumé playing football since high school.

"I wouldn't call it spoiled; I would call it getting used to winning," Sweed said. "To win a national championship in college in Year 2 and then come in here with the Steelers and win a world championship in Year 1, it's been unreal."

The Steelers are counting on Sweed to be prepared for his next reality check.

Pittsburgh offensive coordinator Bruce Arians likes to run a lot of three-receiver sets at the expense of the fullback. The third receiver is almost considered a starter for the Steelers, as Washington caught 40 passes from that position last season and had plenty of opportunities to affect the game with big plays.

Sweed knows exactly what is expected of him from the beginning of camps this year. Instead of waiting his turn as a rookie, he will see significant playing from the beginning of the season.

That is why Sweed already is eager for September. All the work he is putting in now is focused toward the goals of fitting in with the defending champs and quickly erasing the memories of his rookie mistakes with his coaches and teammates.""

Sooooooo. --- when you read this and keep the team as it is. Willie doesnt fit in.. hes too small to be the lone back. so is summers the single back answer.. or is tomlin going to change arians wide out sets and force him to start using a fullback with willie.

this is a big point and a big decision... i am guessing its tomlin overriding arians this year on the fullback and run game issues.

thats my opinion.... duck...

fansince'76
06-23-2009, 05:50 PM
what are you talking about????

by Blitzburgh on Oct 1, 2008 7:33 AM EDT

How seriously do you expect me to take some fool just because he has a blog? Hell, if it were up to this dude, we would have been changing OCs in midseason. Yeah, that would've been a brilliant move. Like I said, too much Madden on the damn X-Box.

fansince'76
06-23-2009, 06:13 PM
does this guy hate bruce?

Arians: I'll take blame for Philadelphia fiasco

Friday, September 26, 2008

By Gerry Dulac, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

"It's all on me and it's over. So you don't have to ask any more players or anybody else."

HMMMMM. it us?? Asked why he is accepting the blame, Arians said, "Because I'm the offensive coordinator. I call the plays.

Guess it's time to cut that overrated and overpaid bum Ben too then. $102 million for this? Unacceptable.

Roethlisberger shoulders the blame
Tuesday, November 11, 2008
By Teresa Varley
Steelers.com

A disappointed Ben Roethlisberger stood in the Steelers locker room after the Colts game and carried the blame for the team’s 24-20 loss on his sore shoulder.

“If this was an individual sport and I lost a game I wouldn’t feel so bad,” said Roethlisberger. “Letting the guys down; letting your teammates down. It hurts because, you never hear me say I anything, but I lost this game and it hurts.”

Roethlisberger started against the Colts after missing practice on Wednesday and Thursday with a sore shoulder that he aggravated against the Redskins. He finished the game 30 of 42 for 284 yards, but the Colts intercepted Roethlisberger three times, and their offense was able to capitalize and turn them into 14 points.

In the first half, with a 17-7 lead, Roethlisberger looked for Santonio Holmes but Keiwan Ratliff intercepted the pass at the Steelers 32-yard line and returned it two yards. Peyton Manning took advantage and drove the Colts down for a two-yard touchdown pass to Dallas Clark to send the game into the half 17-14.

In the fourth quarter, while trying to protect a 20-17 lead, Roethlisberger again looked for Holmes and was intercepted by Tim Jennings and the Colts capitalized again.

Roethlisberger said both interceptions were on him.

“The first one was to the three step and I couldn’t find it and then once I found it, it was too late and I shouldn’t have thrown it,” said Roethlisberger. “The second one, I thought he was coming under, and I made the mistake and threw it to him quick, and his route was a return route. I made a mistake. It was just a mistake on my part. I thought he was going to keep coming and he did what he was supposed to do. He was supposed to stop and go back out, and I tried to get it to him quick and I forgot he was going back out.”

Roethlisberger, who missed the second half of the Redskins game because of the shoulder, practiced only on Friday of last week. He said that wasn’t a problem, though and it didn’t contribute to his play.

“I don’t think it’s that big of an issue,” said Roethlisberger. “I’m taking mental notes and I’m seeing everything that is going on so it’s not as tough as it may seem. I’m not executing, and I’m not doing it well.”

Roethlisberger is hoping to quickly shake off the loss as the team prepares to take on the San Diego Chargers at Heinz Field this week.

“It’s frustrating because you feel like you played well and the turnover at the end of the half, and the turnover at the end, it’s frustrating,” said Roethlisberger. “When you feel like it is your fault, it really hurts. I take it on myself, I let the guys down, offense and defense, but the good thing is that it is not the end of the season, we’ll come back."


http://news.steelers.com/article/99239/

tony hipchest
06-23-2009, 10:33 PM
I guess that's what the Stats show...at this point in their careers, Moore is better than Parker and Parker is better than Portis, therefore, Moore is a better running back than Clinton Portis too.

The Stats are what they are.and this is where it gets so confusing. according to UFN, portis has twice as many yards as parker (and acts like portis is twice as good).

since parker has twice as many yards as moore (way more actually) wouldnt that make him twice as good too?


"The fact that he thinks that Mewelde Moore is even in the conversation with Willie Parker is laughable and is a clear indicator of how UltimateFootbalNetwork overvalues Moore. Lets put this in perspective...." :blah:.

:toofunny:

Steelers & I
06-23-2009, 11:48 PM
Another Arians-hating fan who fancies himself to be an expert because he has a blog under the name "Blitzburgh" who's also probably played too much Madden on the X-Box and thinks he could do a better job. I felt that way last October the first time it was posted here as well.


That seems to be a popular reply around here. The problem that I have with it is the FACT that no one has said that they can do a better job than Arians, pure speculation on your part. I guess that I will be the 1st one to step up and admit that Arians is 100 times the offensive coordinator that I am, although I could probably kick his A$$ in a game of Madden on the XBox 360.

Just to simplify things for you, Arians bashers are insinuating that there are both, current and future offensive coordinators out there, who are capable of doing a better job than Arians.

steelreserve
06-23-2009, 11:54 PM
That seems to be a popular reply around here. The problem that I have with it is the FACT that no one has said that they can do a better job than Arians, pure speculation on your part. I guess that I will be the 1st one to step up and admit that Arians is 100 times the offensive coordinator that I am, although I could probably kick his A$$ in a game of Madden on the XBox 360.

Just to simplify things for you, Arians bashers are insinuating that there are both, current and future offensive coordinators out there, who are capable of doing a better job than Arians.

Thank you for helping rebut one of the most tired, go-to arguments that's used around here.

And to think that all this time, I figured the reason there were so many arguments about Arians and Parker was because half of us are idiots who don't know anything about football and we wouldn't know it if the other half didn't point it out.

HometownGal
06-24-2009, 06:22 AM
Just to simplify things for you, Arians bashers are insinuating that there are both, current and future offensive coordinators out there, who are capable of doing a better job than Arians.

How does anyone really know if another OC would be better at his job than Arians??? :doh: The Steelers could bring someone in here who may be far worse. Just because a particular guy might have success calling plays with one team's offense doesn't mean that he'd have that same level of success calling plays for another. Different cast of characters and different philosophies.

I'm very satisfied with Arians and if Tomlin and the Steelers feel he is doing a good job, which obviously they do - that's just peachy with me. :thumbsup:

And to think that all this time, I figured the reason there were so many arguments about Arians and Parker was because half of us are idiots who don't know anything about football and we wouldn't know it if the other half didn't point it out.

I don't believe anyone feels the Arians haters are idiots and know nothing about football, steelreserve. The way I see it, as do a lot of others around here, is that Arians is unfairly bashed, ridiculed and scapegoated for the O's miniscule flaws - flaws that obviously didn't prevent the team from winning its 6th Lombardi this past season. We as fans are on the outside looking in and doing that "looking in" via watching the game on the boob tube, reading about the team via the media and debating on an internet BB, none of which makes ANY of us an expert or qualifies anyone to be an NFL coach.

fansince'76
06-24-2009, 07:47 AM
Just to simplify things for you, Arians bashers are insinuating that there are both, current and future offensive coordinators out there, who are capable of doing a better job than Arians.

Doubtful, considering that there have been a large contingent of fans who have squawked about the play calling as long as message boards have existed, and even before. They squawked about it when Whisenhunt was OC, they squawked about it when Mularkey was OC, they squawked about it when Gilbride was OC, they squawked about it when Ray Sherman was OC, etc., etc. Or is it just a figment of my imagination that people bitched about "Cowherball" unendingly for about a decade-and-a-half? Arians is simply the latest lightning rod for the criticism, IMO.

Just to simplify things for you, there are a lot of fans who would still find something to bitch about even if we won 50-0 every week and went 19-0 every year.

fansince'76
06-24-2009, 09:23 AM
And to think that all this time, I figured the reason there were so many arguments about Arians and Parker was because half of us are idiots who don't know anything about football and we wouldn't know it if the other half didn't point it out.

Funny, I thought it was because half of us are cheerleading, Kool-Aid-drinking homers who supposedly can never find fault in the Steelers whatsoever and who would never realize the myriad insurmountable faults this team possesses which will prevent it from ever cracking .500, much less ever winning a Super Bowl again, unless the far more enlightened and knowledgeable realists were here to point them out to us. Rah! Rah! Sis-boom-bah! :cheer:

steelreserve
06-24-2009, 11:57 AM
I don't believe anyone feels the Arians haters are idiots and know nothing about football, steelreserve. The way I see it, as do a lot of others around here, is that Arians is unfairly bashed, ridiculed and scapegoated for the O's miniscule flaws - flaws that obviously didn't prevent the team from winning its 6th Lombardi this past season. We as fans are on the outside looking in and doing that "looking in" via watching the game on the boob tube, reading about the team via the media and debating on an internet BB, none of which makes ANY of us an expert or qualifies anyone to be an NFL coach.

While I know what you mean -- Arians does take more crap than he deserves if you ask me -- I just think it's extremely unhelpful the way certain people deal with it. Yes, blaming Arians for everything is oversimplifying things, and personally, I think he does at least an OK job.

But more and more, you see people who think they need to put other users in their place by essentially saying "your opinion is completely irrelevant because you're not involved in professional football." Well guess what, Einstein -- neither are you. Playing that card doesn't make you look any smarter or give any extra weight to what you're saying; it just makes you come off sounding like a pompous jerk.

As the other guy said, I don't think anyone who criticizes the front office is under any illusion that they could run the whole football team better themselves. But are there times when the front office or a coach has obviously made a mistake? Definitely. Do you have to have a background in professional football to see that? Not by any means. If someone thinks they see a problem and points it out, who the hell are you to cut them down for being "just a fan?" Do you know what the front office is thinking? Of course you don't -- we're ALL "just" fans. It's just pretty sad that people are being criticized for that on a FAN forum. I mean, really, what the f*** else did you expect to find here?

revefsreleets
06-24-2009, 12:18 PM
While I know what you mean -- Arians does take more crap than he deserves if you ask me -- I just think it's extremely unhelpful the way certain people deal with it. Yes, blaming Arians for everything is oversimplifying things, and personally, I think he does at least an OK job.

But more and more, you see people who think they need to put other users in their place by essentially saying "your opinion is completely irrelevant because you're not involved in professional football." Well guess what, Einstein -- neither are you. Playing that card doesn't make you look any smarter or give any extra weight to what you're saying; it just makes you come off sounding like a pompous jerk.

As the other guy said, I don't think anyone who criticizes the front office is under any illusion that they could run the whole football team better themselves. But are there times when the front office or a coach has obviously made a mistake? Definitely. Do you have to have a background in professional football to see that? Not by any means. If someone thinks they see a problem and points it out, who the hell are you to cut them down for being "just a fan?" Do you know what the front office is thinking? Of course you don't -- we're ALL "just" fans. It's just pretty sad that people are being criticized for that on a FAN forum. I mean, really, what the f*** else did you expect to find here?


That's fine and dandy if that's ALL the argument that's ever offered. But awhile back I had a whole thread filed with articles and stats and facts and figures in support of Bruce Arians. It had "testimony" from people like Tomlin and Big Ben, Peyton Manning and other players. It had some stats, some history, some analysis...a little of everything. I did actual research and presented a pretty comprehensive defense of the guy. So it's not like i just lazily arrived at the whole "You don't know as well as the FO does" argument. It developed over literally years of comprehensive argument and me finally getting tired of banging my head against the proverbial wall of ignorance MANY people on these boards live behind.

And, just so you know, more than one nitwit over that span HAS said that they could do a better job.

steelreserve
06-24-2009, 12:46 PM
That's fine and dandy if that's ALL the argument that's ever offered. But awhile back I had a whole thread filed with articles and stats and facts and figures in support of Bruce Arians. It had "testimony" from people like Tomlin and Big Ben, Peyton Manning and other players. It had some stats, some history, some analysis...a little of everything. I did actual research and presented a pretty comprehensive defense of the guy. So it's not like i just lazily arrived at the whole "You don't know as well as the FO does" argument. It developed over literally years of comprehensive argument and me finally getting tired of banging my head against the proverbial wall of ignorance MANY people on these boards live behind.

OK, well there you at least explain the reason behind it, but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. People throw around the "You don't have any pro football experience, so STFU" line WAY too casually if you ask me, and pretty hypocritically in a lot of cases too.

Yeah, I understand that it's frustrating if you go to the trouble of making a well-thought-out point only to have some cementhead show up and berate you without even understanding it, if he even read it at all. But that's not where I see the "shut-up-you're-just-a-fan" argument being used at all. More often, it's the first thing people use as a rebuttal, whether or not it's a very good place for it. You think that UFN guy goes overboard by bombarding people with stats regardless of whether it's an appropriate time? It's kind of the same idea in reverse.

What's funny to me is that no small number of the people who go around chastising other members for being simpletons with no inside knowledge of the game are the same people who show up in the political threads and tell you they know exactly how to run the country. Now, how stupid would I sound if I told someone, "How can you criticize Obama? You've never been the president. You haven't even been a congressman. This country's been around for almost 250 years, so something tells me I should trust their idea is better than yours." That would kind of defeat the purpose of having a thread to debate it, now wouldn't it?

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-24-2009, 12:54 PM
Here's my stat AND opinion, skippy:

Minnesota depth chart- Melwelde Moore was #2 or #3 or even #4. In fact, in 2006 when Chester Taylor went down, they replaced him with Ciatrick Fason(who is OUT OF FOOTBALL NOW), NOT Melwelde Moore.

He's listed as the #3 RB on the Steelers depth chart right now behind both Parker and Mendy.

He's a career back-up, situational back. That is NOT an opinion, that IS A FACT. Want more? In 5 years in the league, he has 404 carries, an average of 80 a year, an average of FIVE A GAME.

FIVE carries a game.
Revs, dont take this the wrong way, but I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU!!!!

Fact: 2 different NFL teams, coaches, coordinators have deemed Moore as a backup.

Fact: 2 different NFL head coaches and coordinators have deemed FWP as a starting RB.

Opinion: a fellow Tulane grad believes that Moore should be the starter, based upon a bunch of statistics and believes that he knows more than NFL head coaches, because he can find stats on the internet.

Good think I know the difference between facts and opinions....huh? :chuckle:

Dino 6 Rings
06-24-2009, 01:12 PM
So what have we learned people?

That Moore is the Best RB in the League, that Arians is the worst OC in the NFL?

:chuckle:

tony hipchest
06-24-2009, 01:34 PM
...and that we need more trick plays.

i bet we could send moore to washington, for randle-el and next years third.

it might help their offense improve enough to crack the playoffs.

if nothing it would save clinton portis from all of those 25 carry/ 56 yard games.

maybe we can trade arians for zorn, too.

portis hates him.

mmalone
06-24-2009, 01:50 PM
Lets try this one more time...

From ESPN...

Read Slowly...

"Pittsburgh offensive coordinator Bruce Arians likes to run a lot of three-receiver sets at the expense of the fullback. The third receiver is almost considered a starter for the Steelers."

Sooooooo. --- when you read this and keep the team as it is. No Fullback. RB all alone in the backfield... 3 wide outs in..

The big opinion and debate. based on Arians football style... Who fits in best...

Does Willie fit the playing strategy of Arians or does Moore ??

Some say Willie needs blocking so does Moore. Moore catches balls better then Willie, good for counter blitz plays. Who gets knocked down easier??

Is this to hard for the OL we have??

Now...... if Arians has to give in and play the fullback a bit more during a game...

Who is better for that formation Willie or Moore.???

Does this help the OL??

thumper
06-24-2009, 02:39 PM
Lets try this one more time...

From ESPN...

Read Slowly...

"Pittsburgh offensive coordinator Bruce Arians likes to run a lot of three-receiver sets at the expense of the fullback. The third receiver is almost considered a starter for the Steelers."

Sooooooo. --- when you read this and keep the team as it is. No Fullback. RB all alone in the backfield... 3 wide outs in..

The big opinion and debate. based on Arians football style... Who fits in best...

Does Willie fit the playing strategy of Arians or does Moore ??

Some say Willie needs blocking so does Moore. Moore catches balls better then Willie, good for counter blitz plays. Who gets knocked down easier??

Is this to hard for the OL we have??

Now...... if Arians has to give in and play the fullback a bit more during a game...

Who is better for that formation Willie or Moore.???

Does this help the OL??

I don't know where ESPN got their data, but they ran most of their single back sets with two TEs, not 3 WRs. Well, don' t quote me on "most" but I know for a fact that I saw 2 TEs and not 3 WRs on a lot of those plays.

mmalone
06-24-2009, 02:46 PM
I don't know where ESPN got their data, but they ran most of their single back sets with two TEs, not 3 WRs. Well, don' t quote me on "most" but I know for a fact that I saw 2 TEs and not 3 WRs on a lot of those plays.

thats good. but still one running back in the backfield.

Dino 6 Rings
06-24-2009, 02:50 PM
What's this fight about again? Willie is a very good Running Back going into a Contract year. I'd bet if he stays healthy, he has a great season. Plus Moore and Mendy will pick up the slack and help to eat clock late in the games. Good stuff.

thumper
06-24-2009, 03:11 PM
What's this fight about again? Willie is a very good Running Back going into a Contract year. I'd bet if he stays healthy, he has a great season. Plus Moore and Mendy will pick up the slack and help to eat clock late in the games. Good stuff.

I don't know about others, but I'm not fighting, I am merely asserting that, as things stood last season, we have a problem with rushing the football - a staple of Steeler football.

Dino, if something doesn't change, Parker won't have any holes to run through. Watch games from last year; you will notice that on the majority of plays, there are no rushing lanes for our backs to run through. It's a huge problem. Now, watch games with team with good OL and you will see clear, large holes for the back to gain yardage.

Contract year or no, if our system, play calling and/or OL play doesn't improve we will remain near the bottom of yards per carry in the NFL. Last year we ran at 3.7 ypc in the regular season and 2.8 in the post season. That ain't cutting it. We won a ring in spite of that trend. It won't likely happen again.

revefsreleets
06-24-2009, 03:37 PM
"Gosh, If only I was the offensive coordinator of the Steelers, why, I'd start Melwelde Moore with a FB to block for him and we'd win every game!"

Preacher
06-24-2009, 03:58 PM
Wow... what lap are we on?

I see it this way.

1. Arians and Ben work very well together. That is very important.

2. I think at times, Tomlin gets frustrated with Arians, including in the Superbowl when he said to Arians, "Get teh ball into the endzone. That's what I'd like"

3. Arians has won a job for another year.

4. This is probably the year that he either 1. cements himself as OC or 2. loses the job. If the O line gels, and the short yardage situation comes together, I think Arians cements the job.

revefsreleets
06-24-2009, 04:01 PM
Wow... what lap are we on?

I see it this way.

1. Arians and Ben work very well together. That is very important.

2. I think at times, Tomlin gets frustrated with Arians, including in the Superbowl when he said to Arians, "Get teh ball into the endzone. That's what I'd like"

3. Arians has won a job for another year.

4. This is probably the year that he either 1. cements himself as OC or 2. loses the job. If the O line gels, and the short yardage situation comes together, I think Arians cements the job.

Hence the OG and power RB being drafted, along with signing their other key free agents along the OL.

Preacher
06-24-2009, 04:04 PM
Hence the OG and power RB being drafted, along with signing their other key free agents along the OL.

Yep. I think we are seeing Tomlin taking just a little bit more of the reigns back... pushing Arians in a different direction. However, that is a good thing. Because a bit more balance will make us all the better.

revefsreleets
06-24-2009, 04:08 PM
Well, again, i think it's more of a collaborative effort. Is it entirely outside the realm of possibility that Arians might have said "OK, I get it...you want more of a power running presence. Can I get a little help in a couple areas in that regard?"

Preacher
06-24-2009, 04:16 PM
Well, again, i think it's more of a collaborative effort. Is it entirely outside the realm of possibility that Arians might have said "OK, I get it...you want more of a power running presence. Can I get a little help in a couple areas in that regard?"

Well, we know Tomlin took the reigns back a little going into the playoffs because he told Arians to focus more on the run... and Willie ran for all those yards.

Now, did Arians go back and say, "If you want to do that, this is what we need?" May be. I actually hope that is what happened.

HometownGal
06-24-2009, 04:26 PM
While I know what you mean -- Arians does take more crap than he deserves if you ask me -- I just think it's extremely unhelpful the way certain people deal with it. Yes, blaming Arians for everything is oversimplifying things, and personally, I think he does at least an OK job.

Believe me - I have absolutely NO problem with those who want to offer constructive criticism regarding any aspect of the team or its players. Constructive debate is what fuels this board. It's the very destructive comments with no rhyme or reason that I have a major issue with and it seems a couple of people around here show their fonts when they have a bug up their hineys and show up here to bitch and moan about something - anything to repel the bug.

But more and more, you see people who think they need to put other users in their place by essentially saying "your opinion is completely irrelevant because you're not involved in professional football." Well guess what, Einstein -- neither are you. Playing that card doesn't make you look any smarter or give any extra weight to what you're saying; it just makes you come off sounding like a pompous jerk.

As the other guy said, I don't think anyone who criticizes the front office is under any illusion that they could run the whole football team better themselves. But are there times when the front office or a coach has obviously made a mistake? Definitely. Do you have to have a background in professional football to see that? Not by any means. If someone thinks they see a problem and points it out, who the hell are you to cut them down for being "just a fan?" Do you know what the front office is thinking? Of course you don't -- we're ALL "just" fans. It's just pretty sad that people are being criticized for that on a FAN forum. I mean, really, what the f*** else did you expect to find here?

First off, I hope you weren't singling me out above. If a post reeks of bullshit, I'll be the first one there to ask the member to kindly wipe their derriere.

On the flip side of the coin, there are those who try to shove their opinions down others throats and who don't do their homework before posting some of the nonsensical posts I've seen around here. If you're going to state something is FACT, back it up with a credible source and don't try to play the victim when you're called out on it. This not only applies to the football and sports forums, but the political threads as well.

As revs so correctly stated in a prior post, there HAVE been members over the last 3 years that I've been a member of this board who actually have had the audacity to say that they could do a better job than Whisenhunt and/or Arians. Talk about arrogance.

You can bet your sweet bippy that when the Steelers lose a game or two (or three) this season (and I don't EXPECT the team to go 16-0) the "Arians sucks", "Parker sucks", "Ben sucks", yada, yada, yada threads will run rampant on this board. You can take it to the bank that these threads will die a very quick death.

The Lakelander
06-24-2009, 04:37 PM
This, that and the other thing: We had the 4th worst ypc in the entire league. I don't care about all the excuses; we couldn't run the ball. We might have played some good Ds but we still played plenty of bad ones. No excuses. We outright sucked at rushing the football

Not quite true ... we played something like 14 of the top 16 rush defenses. It was an un-Godly tough schedule man! And we did it with a patchwork and under-talented O-Line, a career journeyman RB (Mewelde) for several games and a QB with a bum shoulder.

Bring on 2009!

It will be a monster year compared to last year! :tt:

steelreserve
06-24-2009, 06:37 PM
First off, I hope you weren't singling me out above. If a post reeks of bullshit, I'll be the first one there to ask the member to kindly wipe their derriere.

On the flip side of the coin, there are those who try to shove their opinions down others throats and who don't do their homework before posting some of the nonsensical posts I've seen around here. If you're going to state something is FACT, back it up with a credible source and don't try to play the victim when you're called out on it. This not only applies to the football and sports forums, but the political threads as well.

No, I wasn't singling you out ... I actually don't even remember you ever acting like that toward anyone. Your post was just the better one to reply to out of the handful on the subject, is all. There are probably several people who tend to lord the "you're-just-a-fan-so-shut-up" argument over people, but I'm not really keeping track of who they are specifically or anything. You just see it a lot, is all.

On the flip side of the coin, there are those who try to shove their opinions down others throats and who don't do their homework before posting some of the nonsensical posts I've seen around here. If you're going to state something is FACT, back it up with a credible source and don't try to play the victim when you're called out on it. This not only applies to the football and sports forums, but the political threads as well.

Believe me, I've been around enough to see plenty of what you're talking about. Especially during the season, you do get barrages of clueless people who show up after watching one game and say some really stupid shit. That definitely justifies getting berated. But I've also seen some people jump into the middle of legitimate debates with "you're just a fan, you don't know anything", or basically use that as their first and last argument and everything else in between. That's what's no good.

Steelers & I
06-24-2009, 10:27 PM
Doubtful, considering that there have been a large contingent of fans who have squawked about the play calling as long as message boards have existed, and even before. They squawked about it when Whisenhunt was OC, they squawked about it when Mularkey was OC, they squawked about it when Gilbride was OC, they squawked about it when Ray Sherman was OC, etc., etc. Or is it just a figment of my imagination that people bitched about "Cowherball" unendingly for about a decade-and-a-half? Arians is simply the latest lightning rod for the criticism, IMO.

Just to simplify things for you, there are a lot of fans who would still find something to bitch about even if we won 50-0 every week and went 19-0 every year.

Well that's probably a bit of a stretch. I agree that a few would still bitch about things but I wouldn't be one of them.

Steelers & I
06-24-2009, 10:38 PM
While I know what you mean -- Arians does take more crap than he deserves if you ask me -- I just think it's extremely unhelpful the way certain people deal with it. Yes, blaming Arians for everything is oversimplifying things, and personally, I think he does at least an OK job.

But more and more, you see people who think they need to put other users in their place by essentially saying "your opinion is completely irrelevant because you're not involved in professional football." Well guess what, Einstein -- neither are you. Playing that card doesn't make you look any smarter or give any extra weight to what you're saying; it just makes you come off sounding like a pompous jerk.

As the other guy said, I don't think anyone who criticizes the front office is under any illusion that they could run the whole football team better themselves. But are there times when the front office or a coach has obviously made a mistake? Definitely. Do you have to have a background in professional football to see that? Not by any means. If someone thinks they see a problem and points it out, who the hell are you to cut them down for being "just a fan?" Do you know what the front office is thinking? Of course you don't -- we're ALL "just" fans. It's just pretty sad that people are being criticized for that on a FAN forum. I mean, really, what the f*** else did you expect to find here?

That is a nice damn post. 100% accurate. Thank you.