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thumper
06-16-2009, 05:21 PM
....he says the OL was only responsible for 19 sacks. They rest were due to TEs, RBs not picking up their assignments and WRs not running their hot routes.

OK, let's say that's true. Let's go with it, for the sake of argument.

Even if that is true, you can't tell me this OL is any good. Why? How about because they almost never open up any holes for the running game. Do you know where Pgh ranked (Pgh, the team who has the major identity of being a rushing team) for rushing in the NFL?

23rd....out of 32. I'd think, a team that emphasized the rush as the Steelers do, to be at least 16th.

And their average per rush? A more telling stat on where you really rate as a rushing attack? 3.7. Only two teams had a worse average rushing per attempt in the entire NFL. TWO! And it's not as if there isn't a BIG difference between the quality rushing teams and how pathetic Pgh was. NYG had a FIVE yard AVERAGE per RUSH. Broncos and Pathers had a 4.8. Can you even imagine how dominant this team would be with an above 4.5 avg. per rush?

Yea, we won a Super Bowl. But no one can tell me there isn't lots of room for improvement in our rushing game, and much of that is with the OL. Oh, and did I mention play calling? That's another HUGE reason for such an anemic rushing game.

I have faith that Tomlin knows they need to become a much better rushing game. Please, God, please make that true. They won't win another ring with that lame of a rushing attack. It won't happen again.

revefsreleets
06-16-2009, 05:23 PM
There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that a big part of the anemic rushing game was the lack of a power rusher. We did, after all, have Gary Russell as our lone power back, and he was cut by the lowly Bengals.

We have a playbook filled with running plays. Contrary to popular belief, they can't all be sweeps. So you do what you can with what you have.

Preacher
06-16-2009, 05:25 PM
Sigh.

Maybe I should just resort to cutting and pasting.

EDIT: Here is my cut and paste. . .

Furthermore, isn't it just AMAZING how everyone forgets that last year, we played great defenses... (Yard per play, passing and rushing, pts is points allowed)

The Ravens, 2nd in total 5th in rushing YPP 3rd pts
The Eagles, 3rd in total, 4th in rushingYPP 4th pts
The Titalns, 4th in total6th in rushing YPP 2nd pts
The Cowboys, 5th in total 16th innrushing YPP 20 pts
The Giants, 7 in total, 11th in rushing YPP 5th pts
The Redskings, 8th in total, 8th in rushing YPP 6th pts
The Colts, 9th in total, 17th in rushing YPP 7th pts.

Maybe the quality of opponents we played had something to do with the numbers?

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?p=616717#post616717

revefsreleets
06-16-2009, 05:30 PM
Actually, since apparently several people here think Arians is mentally retarded, and we also seem to have several offensive geniuses waiting in the wings on this board (I know, remarkable, isn't it? There are only 32 OC jobs in the whole NFL and we seem to have at least 10 guys on this very board who can do a better job than our own. Amazing!), then maybe Arians just made the number up?

HometownGal
06-16-2009, 05:36 PM
Actually, since apparently several people here think Arians is mentally retarded, and we also seem to have several offensive geniuses waiting in the wings on this board (I know, remarkable, isn't it? There are only 32 OC jobs in the whole NFL and we seem to have at least 10 guys on this very board who can do a better job than our own. Amazing!), then maybe Arians just made the number up?

:toofunny::laughing::thumbsup:

I couldn't have said it any better.

Get those resumes in! :tt03::chuckle:

thumper
06-16-2009, 05:37 PM
Actually, since apparently several people here think Arians is mentally retarded, and we also seem to have several offensive geniuses waiting in the wings on this board (I know, remarkable, isn't it? There are only 32 OC jobs in the whole NFL and we seem to have at least 10 guys on this very board who can do a better job than our own. Amazing!), then maybe Arians just made the number up?

Never said he made the # up. What I _DID_ say is our rushing per attempt was absolutely garbage. We were 30th in the league. Now, you can say what you want about us not having OC jobs in the NFL, but there is no disputing that being 30th in rush per attempt means something really sucks with:

A.) Our OL
B.) Our play calling.
C.) Our running back.

And I am not discounting C all together. FWP still lacks vision and instincts and that doesn't help. And being down to our 3rd string back from injuries won't help your rushing stats either. But, still, I think there is no doubt A and B are the major problems. If Pgh isn't well above 4 ypc something is really wrong.

Correction: Pgh wasn't 30th in ypc, they were all the way up to 29th. Cinci was actually worse (and they were horrid at running the ball) with a 3.6 ypc.

Preacher
06-16-2009, 05:45 PM
Never said he made the # up. What I _DID_ say is our rushing per attempt was absolutely garbage. We were 30th in the league. Now, you can say what you want about us not having OC jobs in the NFL, but there is no disputing that being 30th in rush per attempt means something really sucks with:

A.) Our OL
B.) Our play calling.
C.) Our running back.

And I am not discounting C all together. FWP still lacks vision and instincts and that doesn't help. And being down to our 3rd string back from injuries won't help your rushing stats either. But, still, I think there is no doubt A and B are the major problems. If Pgh isn't well above 4 ypc something is really wrong.

Correction: Pgh wasn't 30th in ypc, they were all the way up to 29th. Cinci was actually worse (and they were horrid at running the ball) with a 3.6 ypc.

YEah, I also noticed that you completely skipped the part that half our schedule was against TOP defenses... and a decent part of that was against TOP RUSH defenses.

So, does that play ANY role in your little scenario?

T.Richardson
06-16-2009, 05:52 PM
Never said he made the # up. What I _DID_ say is our rushing per attempt was absolutely garbage. We were 30th in the league. Now, you can say what you want about us not having OC jobs in the NFL, but there is no disputing that being 30th in rush per attempt means something really sucks with:

A.) Our OL
B.) Our play calling.
C.) Our running back.

And I am not discounting C all together. FWP still lacks vision and instincts and that doesn't help. And being down to our 3rd string back from injuries won't help your rushing stats either. But, still, I think there is no doubt A and B are the major problems. If Pgh isn't well above 4 ypc something is really wrong.

Correction: Pgh wasn't 30th in ypc, they were all the way up to 29th. Cinci was actually worse (and they were horrid at running the ball) with a 3.6 ypc.

Will people ever give up on the "playcalling"

pancake
06-16-2009, 06:18 PM
I'm not a big fan of Arains, but he is a Super Bowl winning OC, so I deal with that.:thumbsup:

Psyychoward86
06-16-2009, 06:23 PM
Sigh.

Maybe I should just resort to cutting and pasting.

EDIT: Here is my cut and paste. . .



http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?p=616717#post616717

That's a huge part of it. We should all be happy we got as far as we did, winning the superbowl and all. There were so many intangibles that went wrong last year too: Consistency was an issue. Marvel and Kendall Simmons got injured, which meant backups became starters. Willie and Mendy both got hurt. Willie got hurt multiple times actually.

Texasteel
06-16-2009, 06:37 PM
I think there are more than a couple reason our running game was not what we are accustom to, but focusing on the line. I thought Colon was not playing his best position, and at time looked uncomfortable, but I could see improvement and hopefully he will feel more comfortable at right tackle this year. I didn't think that our RG was ready for the starting position, but they had no choice, he has a year under his belt now and should do a better job, I was one of the few people that didn't care that much for the center play, but again it was his first year here on a line that was torn up by injuries and I think he will improve. Add to that a bigger stronger Hill at OT and the drafting of Urbik to shore up the interior of the line, which I thought was the weakest link. I know there is a lot of hopefully, and should there, but they would still be there if we had drafted all O-line.

I did thing that the line looked like they were starting to gel in the playoffs. Again HOPEFULLY they will continue. At any rate, I will not condemn the line till I see them in action this year. The line did play well enough to win a 6th championship last year, and I do think our coaching staff knows much more about this than I do.

RoethlisBURGHer
06-16-2009, 06:37 PM
Lets see here.

We played many of the top run defenses in the league last year.

Also, Willie Parker got hurt and played dinged up most of the season. Not to mention he doesn't just hit the hole and run, he dances around in the backfield. He doesn't run like Bettis, he's more of a finesse back. He's not going to get four yards when there were only two there in the open.

Then, Willie went down and our first round draft pick gets his shoulder broken in his first regular season start.

So that left us with a third down back, the #3 guy as the starter.

It also didn't help that we were using a fullback that couldn't block his way out of a wet paper bag...and he wasn't that good with the ball in his hands either.

I think this is going to be good year for the running game. A healthy Parker and Mendenhall giving us the one-two punch I thought we would have had last year. Also, Sean McHugh might get a lot of playing time at fullback to help open those holes and lead Parker through them.

mmalone
06-16-2009, 06:38 PM
....he says the OL was only responsible for 19 sacks. They rest were due to TEs, RBs not picking up their assignments and WRs not running their hot routes.


You have to go with thumper here. Arians did say 19 sacks on the OL.. thats a fact.. right.

We did win the Super Bowl.. With a No.1 Defense, that played the top teams.

We did win the Super Bowl... With the Number 22 Offense, that played the top teams.

So the other sacks really dont matter now...

or it could be because arians runs a single 180 lb back into a wall of meat with no blocker. we have hoorid running stats.. But remember arians blamed the SACKS 19 times on the OL. Not the rushing yards.

He didnt say anything about the single back running and not having any holes to run thru.

So, do you blame arians for the lone back setup.. or the OL for the lack of penetration??

Or do we put arians in the backfield and have him try?? find the weakness.

Or do we just use Summers to fix this story once and for all.

The Definiti0n
06-16-2009, 07:23 PM
Yea im sure Arians and Tomlin didnt evaluate the sacks issue all offseason. He just pulled the number 19 out of his ass.
WE WON THE SUPERBOWL. Do we need to improvement is some areas, yes. No team is ranked number 1 in every catergory arcoss the board.

And can we please great over this power running idenity crisis. We run 3 wides or two TE sets 99 percent of the time. No more fullback and The Bus is gone. Lastly, Frank Summers isnt the secong coming of Frank O. Every post that starts our lack luster power running game, some how ends in Frank Summers. He probably wont even dress for games, thats if he even makes the team.

tony hipchest
06-16-2009, 07:36 PM
Sigh.

Maybe I should just resort to cutting and pasting.

EDIT: Here is my cut and paste. . .



http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?p=616717#post616717it wont work preach.

i used the same argument in defense of fast willie putting up some stinkers of a game against top defenses such as san diego and baltimore dating back to the days of bunglebrian and LITP.

now for arians shifting blame off the line, its just a smokescreen.

drew brees was sacked 13 times. im sure 6 could be attributed to the wr's, te's and brees himself.

what was cutler sacked like 20 times? again, half of those are probably not directly attributed to the MACH 5 itself. you will find this across the league.

so what does this obviously mean? the steelers need to fire tomlin and hire an OFFENSIVE minded head coach like s. peyton or m. shanahan.... but gues what ?

there defenses SUCKED schweddy balls.

noll, cowher, tomlin = 40 years of defensive coaches. 7 sb's and 6 champs. thats what we got and what the rooneys have offered. its time for people to deal and cope.

im just glad we have a qb that we actually care if they get knocked out of the game or not (who happens to be one of the toughest sob qb's short of favre).

anyone look at the new rings again in the past day or 2? theyre freaking NICE!

no, BEAUTIFUL (like something dug out of king tuts tomb).

:helmet:

tony hipchest
06-16-2009, 07:51 PM
just think...

we coulda kept offensive line minded russ grimm and had his 32 ranked from last year. sure our running game would suck, but we would still have kreider, tuman and maybe even JOHN KUHN! :danceshout:

or better yet we coulda kept nfc champion ken whiz (who i think is a better coach than grimm).

we coulda gotten kurt warner, released ben, signed faneca and j. gross, have fewer sacks, tons more passing yards and td's and watch our defense blow green slimy donkey dick in the final 2 minutes of the superbowl.

this isnt the 80's. we cant or wont have it both ways. the good news is all the great young up and coming talent on the offense our team has compiled.

if ben suffers a career ending injury (which i doubt) we will find a warner or leftwich to come in and carry on.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-16-2009, 08:22 PM
Every post that starts our lack luster power running game, some how ends in Frank Summers. He probably wont even dress for games, thats if he even makes the team.

So True.

Never seen so many people get excited about the probable #4 RB on the team since...........Fu.

LVSteelersfan
06-16-2009, 08:53 PM
Hey, I admit to being an armchair OC. Some of my analysis is pretty weak I know but I never played the game (5'6" and 125 lbs as a Freshman in High School) so I mostly go by what the talking heads say. And what I think I see after watching Steelers football for 30 some odd years. All I know is the offense totally sucked a lot of the time last year and Ben saved our butts again and again. I am excited about Frank the Tank mostly because he is a UNLV alum (as am I) and wish him to do extremely well. I certainly understand he may not see the field much this year or might not make the team but one can always wish.

LVSteelersfan
06-16-2009, 09:00 PM
I know we have to live with Arians and although I don't care much for him it is what it is.

Steelers & I
06-17-2009, 03:20 AM
I know we have to live with Arians and although I don't care much for him it is what it is.

That's basically where I stand on the issue. This debate carries no weight during the off season. Many, including myself, had our gripes about Arians during the season but the Steelers won the Super Bowl inspite of him so that's all water under the bridge at this point.

Just as many of the O-Line bashers have laid off of them and are hoping for improved O-Line play this upcoming season, I'm taking the same approach with Arians. Arians is what he is but one thing is for sure, HE IS our offensive coordinator so as Steelers fans we have no choice but to hope that he somehow becomes the best offensive coordinator in the league. That would definitely satisfy us all.

The Definiti0n
06-17-2009, 03:44 AM
So True.

Never seen so many people get excited about the probable #4 RB on the team since...........Fu.

Exactly :applaudit:

Preacher
06-17-2009, 04:08 AM
So True.

Never seen so many people get excited about the probable #4 RB on the team since...........Fu.

How DARE you ruin the reputation of Kuhn!

Wait, he was like the fifth back right? :rofl:

thumper
06-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Lets see here.

We played many of the top run defenses in the league last year.

Also, Willie Parker got hurt and played dinged up most of the season. Not to mention he doesn't just hit the hole and run, he dances around in the backfield. He doesn't run like Bettis, he's more of a finesse back. He's not going to get four yards when there were only two there in the open.

Then, Willie went down and our first round draft pick gets his shoulder broken in his first regular season start.

So that left us with a third down back, the #3 guy as the starter.

It also didn't help that we were using a fullback that couldn't block his way out of a wet paper bag...and he wasn't that good with the ball in his hands either.

I think this is going to be good year for the running game. A healthy Parker and Mendenhall giving us the one-two punch I thought we would have had last year. Also, Sean McHugh might get a lot of playing time at fullback to help open those holes and lead Parker through them.

This, that and the other thing: We had the 4th worst ypc in the entire league. I don't care about all the excuses; we couldn't run the ball. We might have played some good Ds but we still played plenty of bad ones. No excuses. We outright sucked at rushing the football

xfl2001fan
06-17-2009, 10:29 AM
So let me get this straight...

If Ben holds on to the ball too long, it's Arians/OL fault.

If Willie (or your 3rd best back) dances in the hole instead of just hitting it and gaining what's there, it's Arians/OL fault.

But if those guys make the big play...it's despite Arians/OL? Ben "saves your butt" in the last few minutes of the game by doing what he's done all game (and season/career) long in looking for the big play...and it worked at the end of the game (when the defenses are a little more tired?)

I'm just seeing if I can follow the logic here.

Rek
06-17-2009, 11:01 AM
YAY! - Yet ANOTHER BA-bashing thread. Jesus people, they won the SB last year with him. I'm just going to automatically assume every thread with BA/Ben/Willie/OL/Tomlin...etc in the title is a hate thread.

mmalone
06-17-2009, 11:45 AM
dudes it is like this....

We did win the Super Bowl.. With a No.1 Defense, that played the top teams.

We did win the Super Bowl... With the Number 22 Offense, that played the top teams.

Do we like being 22nd on offense...

Everyone blames someone else about the offense, even arians...

No. 22 makes arians a suspect, so it is a natural debate to have...


Summers, is always going to be a 245lb fullback.... special purpose. he is not going to take over willies job, mendy's job or moores job. he is not the #4 or 5 running back. he has a chance to be the #1 Fullback. And thats all he will ever be...

we need that guy...

Indo
06-17-2009, 11:56 AM
I will admit that I have screamed at the TV on more than one occasion when we failed to score with 3 or 4 tries inside the 5. Some of the play-calling just baffled me. Especially the "we just ran Play X and it didn't work, so we'll try it again. Maybe to the same side, maybe to the other side". It made me NUCKING FUTS!.

On the other hand, it's hard to argue that the wrong play-call was made on the Last Play Of The Season. Granted, Ben had to be perfect, the LINE had to be perfect, and Santo had to be perfect. But it WAS the right call. Perfect. 6. No one else.

Love him, or hate him, Arians is the OC (even Bradshaw didn't call all of the plays well). The front office thinks highly of Arians. They know better than we do. Really.

BUT...
I wish Arians would bring back the inside Trap plays----I loved watching Steve Courson just DESTROY defensemen. He and Tunch just BURIED people...
*SIGH* Those were the days...(not taking anything away from THESE days---so glad I was born in Pittsburgh)

revefsreleets
06-17-2009, 12:52 PM
The problem is simple, and it is this: BA carries a disproportionate amount of blame for the offensive woe's, and I suspect a large part of that is from simple ignorance. It's much easier to just dump all the problems, no matter how complex the issue, in the lap of the coach. Steelers fans have been doing it for YEARS...they may very well be the best in the NFL at it.

Fire Haley
06-17-2009, 01:09 PM
Anybody that is still whining about Arians is obviously just another attention ho' suffering from Tiny Penis Syndrome.

My condolences.

scsteeler
06-17-2009, 01:11 PM
I have come to the conclusion that some will just hate Bruce A. and others will criticize and blame any offensive woes we have on him. I myself think he is doing a fantastic job and the best has yet to be seen which makes me more excited about the upcoming year.

When Ben gets sacked or a good defense shuts down the run game then someone will take the blame and Arian's is the guy.

:tt02::tt02::tt02::tt02::tt02:

Psyychoward86
06-17-2009, 01:20 PM
Anybody that is still whining about Arians is obviously just another attention ho' suffering from Tiny Penis Syndrome.

My condolences.

Lol. Random.

LVSteelersfan
06-17-2009, 01:29 PM
I promise from this point forward (or until such time that I change my mind once the season starts) to quit ragging on Arians and Willie Parker. We won a Super Bowl with both, and despite the fact that it was the defense and Ben's heroics that got us there for the most part, Arians and Parker both had something to do with it. If, however, it doesn't get any better this year with the easier schedule we have (minus those great defenses we played against), then I will open up with all guns on Arians, the Oline and Parker as the root of the problem. Truce for now, but I cannot stand the red zone inefficiency we saw last year. It was putrid. It will get better. It will get better. It will get better. There, I said my mantra. So it will get better.

thumper
06-17-2009, 01:37 PM
I have come to the conclusion that some will just hate Bruce A. and others will criticize and blame any offensive woes we have on him. I myself think he is doing a fantastic job and the best has yet to be seen which makes me more excited about the upcoming year.

When Ben gets sacked or a good defense shuts down the run game then someone will take the blame and Arian's is the guy.

:tt02::tt02::tt02::tt02::tt02:

Why shouldn't he get the blame? He runs a 190 lb RB in a single back set up the middle. Pure genius, according to most of you, right?

Fire Haley
06-17-2009, 01:49 PM
This

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1XUdoNla4TU&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1XUdoNla4TU&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

scsteeler
06-17-2009, 02:10 PM
Why shouldn't he get the blame? He runs a 190 lb RB in a single back set up the middle. Pure genius, according to most of you, right?

Let's see we went undefeated in our division last year, won the Super Bowl. I will take that!!!!!!!!!!

Question for you who gets the credit when the offense has success and last years Super Bowl Winning Drive?

revefsreleets
06-17-2009, 02:13 PM
Again, because we have a 210 lb running back (not 190), and not a 250 lb running back, we should only run sweeps?

This confirms what I think almost daily: Thank sweet Christ that none of you guys is running our offense. We'd be lucky to win 2 games a year.

simonsfs30
06-17-2009, 02:34 PM
i think the wrong thing here is that BA run the same play in a row 3 times in one game 3 times the next game and other 3 times the next game BUT he won us a superbowl so i cant say anything about that
colts game, cowboys game and i dont remember the other

RoethlisBURGHer
06-17-2009, 04:27 PM
BA might not be the greatest offensive coordinator in the league, but he's not the worst either.

And funny thing is, when Arians was running Parker out of the single back set in 2007, he was going to be the league rushing champion until he broke his leg.

Also, does anyone who hates even realize that last year our only healthy running back was Mewelde Moore.

St33lersguy
06-17-2009, 04:29 PM
I have faith that Tomlin knows they need to become a much better rushing game. Please, God, please make that true. They won't win another ring with that lame of a rushing attack. It won't happen again.

Yeah but Arians doesn't. He is completely clueless

mmalone
06-17-2009, 05:38 PM
This, that and the other thing: We had the 4th worst ypc in the entire league. I don't care about all the excuses; we couldn't run the ball. We might have played some good Ds but we still played plenty of bad ones. No excuses. We outright sucked at rushing the football

obviously you can't blame anyone on the 22nd ranked offense...

arians is fine. only 19 sacks he says blamed on the OL.

running a single RB into the line up the middle... multiple times in a row, every other possesion... not real deceptive... result low yards, broken shoulders and worn out willies. if no one sees this, your watching the pats or something..

Ben scrambling and missed routes and blocks by WR's.... cant blame arian here he said so.....

we did win the SB with the 22nd ranked offense, so lets ignore the offense and say were good end the disscussion and talk about golf..

what happens when we are the 7th ranked defense, i think we will then need to be a 7th ranked offesne to balance things out to make the palyoffs....

just running some logic friends... not bashing anyone...

tony hipchest
06-17-2009, 09:49 PM
This, that and the other thing: We had the 4th worst ypc in the entire league. I don't care about all the excuses; we couldn't run the ball. We might have played some good Ds but we still played plenty of bad ones. No excuses. We outright sucked at rushing the football

wtf are you talking about. you dont care about all the excuses??? its pretty obvious you dont care about all the facts either.

either come correct or dont come at all, otherwise your opinions really dont mean shit (especially with the drivel posted above.

here are some facts:

including playoffs willie started 14 games. of those he had 20+ carries 7 times.

wk...att/yds/ypc

1....25/138/5.5
2....28/105/3.8
9....21/ 70/3.3
11..25/115/4.6
17..23.116/5.0
19..27/146/5.4
20..24/ 47/2.0

i'll throw in the patriots game too as these 8 games represent his most productive efforts-

13..16/87/5.4

all 8 games are wins. half average more than 5 ypc. 5 of the 8 are 100+ yds. take away his longest run in just about everyone averaging 4.6 or above and he still averages 4.0 ypc.

what about that sucks, or shows we "cant run the ball"?

in the 6 games he played not listed here 2 were against baltimore, 1 vs philly, dallas, and tennessee (all staunch run defenses) .

you doom & gloomers and fantasy football geeks need to keep it grounded in reality.

theres a reason why when the steelers face the vikings this season, a. peterson will average less than 3.8 ypc and its NOT because he sucks or because they cant run the ball.

theres a reason the likes ot LT and larry johnson in the primes of their careers, were skunked vs the steelers and its not because they sucked either.

Cheppy
06-17-2009, 11:34 PM
Again, because we have a 210 lb running back (not 190), and not a 250 lb running back, we should only run sweeps?

This confirms what I think almost daily: Thank sweet Christ that none of you guys is running our offense. We'd be lucky to win 2 games a year.

Vintage...

Not one of these people has said that they should run sweeps exclusively. It would've been nice if they ran some in the AFC championship game but that's neither here nor there.

You're such a robot to the point where you create imaginary scenarios for yourself to critique. I'm glad you're not washing my truck let alone running a football franchise.

MACH1
06-17-2009, 11:42 PM
:yawn::yawn:

Cheppy
06-17-2009, 11:45 PM
:yawn::yawn:

I wasn't sure about your angle until I saw the second "yawn". (thumbs up) Really hit home.

Not one of these people has said that they should run sweeps exclusively..

No "yawns" for that factoid?

MACH1
06-18-2009, 12:54 AM
I wasn't sure about your angle until I saw the second "yawn". (thumbs up) Really hit home.



No "yawns" for that factoid?

:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:

Cheppy
06-18-2009, 12:59 AM
:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:

Insightful.... You're not just wasting my time:

Not one of these people has said that they should run sweeps exclusively

MACH1
06-18-2009, 01:05 AM
:yawn:

But your wasting mine reading your drivel.

:yawn:

Cheppy
06-18-2009, 01:27 AM
:yawn:

But your wasting mine reading your drivel.

:yawn:

I apologize. (signs up for retard emoticon 101) How do you say:

Not one of these people has said that they should run sweeps exclusively..

in retarded emoticon?

Cheppy
06-18-2009, 01:33 AM
:hatsoff::monkey::hunch::bowdown::cake::cash:chug: :semaphore?

Close?

MACH1
06-18-2009, 01:49 AM
:yawn:

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w11/bcrab/bigfinger.gif

fansince'76
06-18-2009, 01:54 AM
(signs up for retard emoticon 101)....

Can anybody enroll in that, or is "Self-Important Douchebaggery 050" a prerequisite?

Preacher
06-18-2009, 04:56 AM
:hatsoff::monkey::hunch::bowdown::cake::cash:chug: :semaphore?

Close?


No No. . .

Its more to the right on your keyboard. It looks like this:

http://asia.cnet.com/i/r/2005/gb/mar/funkey_b1.jpg

steelwall
06-18-2009, 05:05 AM
Can anybody enroll in that, or is "Self-Important Douchebaggery 050" a prerequisite?

man... :toofunny:

Cheppy
06-18-2009, 09:25 AM
My bad.. I was hammered when I posted that last night. (on jack, not beer) My new, new year's resolution will be thou shall not drunk post. Like drunk dialing an ex, no good can ever come of it.

And who thought of this :monkey:? I like it:laughing:

revefsreleets
06-18-2009, 11:59 AM
Hard to say for sure, since I'm making judicious use of the ignore feature, but it looks like this thread has taken a definite turn for the worse.

Anyway, the fact remains, it's really super easy to blame the OC for all the problems of an offense. That's the lazy mans excuse, though, especially since the FO of the best run organization in the NFL, perhaps all of sports, doesn't share the sentiment.

Texasteel
06-18-2009, 12:52 PM
Hard to say for sure, since I'm making judicious use of the ignore feature, but it looks like this thread has taken a definite turn for the worse.

Anyway, the fact remains, it's really super easy to blame the OC for all the problems of an offense. That's the lazy mans excuse, though, especially since the FO of the best run organization in the NFL, perhaps all of sports, doesn't share the sentiment.

I think you right reve. It may be time to euthanize this thread before someone gets a 30 time out.

revefsreleets
06-18-2009, 12:58 PM
Yeah, this thread wasn't all that great to begin with. And if I've learned anything from Steelers message boards, it's that if you grow disillusioned with any one particular "I hate Bruce Arians" thread, don't fret: Wait 5 minutes and there will be another one.

thumper
06-18-2009, 01:17 PM
Hard to say for sure, since I'm making judicious use of the ignore feature, but it looks like this thread has taken a definite turn for the worse.

Anyway, the fact remains, it's really super easy to blame the OC for all the problems of an offense. That's the lazy mans excuse, though, especially since the FO of the best run organization in the NFL, perhaps all of sports, doesn't share the sentiment.

Before we give them a reach around, this is the same "best ever FO" who thought Kordell Stewart was worthy of a new, huge contract after clearly displaying he was horse crap as a QB. The same Kordell who was benched within weeks in Chicago and not used in Balt. when they had NO ONE for QB whatsoever. And they _still_ refused to play him. The same Kordell who was summarily bounced out of the league while still in his physical prime. __THAT__ is the "best ever" FO you refer to? No way could they make an erroneous decision, right?

simonsfs30
06-18-2009, 01:26 PM
the FO with the MOST rings...... yes steelers FO is the BEST EVER rings can tell it

thumper
06-18-2009, 01:42 PM
Vintage...

Not one of these people has said that they should run sweeps exclusively. It would've been nice if they ran some in the AFC championship game but that's neither here nor there.

You're such a robot to the point where you create imaginary scenarios for yourself to critique. I'm glad you're not washing my truck let alone running a football franchise.

It's called making "straw man arguments." It's a sophomoric move and proves nothing whatsoever.

Since some have said "Waaa waaaa waaaaa look at all our excuses" as for why Pgh is the 4th worst rushing team (ypc most accurate # to look at) and that one of the excuses was "we were on our 4th string running back" let's look at the #s that our FIRST STRING running back put up.

Fast Willie Parker in 2008, 3.8 aypc and 71.9 per game avg.

He was the starting running back. He put up a crappy 3.8 yard per carry average. He wasn't out 4th string back. (Actually, Moore had a much better ypc, 4.2, so that shoots the excuse-giving argument to total hell.)

Anyone sitting there and saying "Our running game is fine; it was only because of our injuries and schedule that made us the 4th worst ypc team in the league" you are fully delusional. And those who think "It doesn't matter; we won the Super Bowl" you will be sadly mistaken to find out that a rushing attack that weak will never win the SB again.

The single back attack, rushing a small back up the middle on so many first and second downs, putting Ben at a huge disadvantage, simply will not provide the rushing production needed to win another ring. They had the perfect storm on conditions to win IN SPITE of such a horrid rushing attack. That perfect storm WILL NOT ever happen again. If they don't fix this problem (4th-WORST ypc in the league) they won't win another SB.

Can you imagine how good this team would be if they had a 4.5-5.0 ypc? Teams would be forced to play the safeties up and Ben could go to town.

By the way, A. Peterson has a 4.8 ypc, Brandon Jacobs had a 5.0 and DeAngelo Williams had a 5.5 ypc. If anyone in here thinks those teams don't have better O-lines and play calling, I don't know what to tell you. But have a nice fantasy trip.

St33lersguy
06-18-2009, 01:52 PM
The thing is with peabrain Arians is we won the superbowl despite his horrible playcalling. I will repeat again THE STEELERS WON THE SUPERBOWL DESPITE HIM AND HIS HORRID PLAYCALLING! Just because the defense and big ben carried the team to a sb championship doesn't mean the lame OC who can't call the correct play to save his life is worth something just because he was on a SB winning team. The thing is his gameplans sucked, his playcalling escpecially running Mewelde up the middle and not even attempting to try to fool defenses. He is unimaginative he just runs basic plays and runs him so the whole world knows what he's running next. Another problem is the fact that running the no huddle works for the offense yet he never uses it before the final minutes of each half.

mmalone
06-18-2009, 02:26 PM
The thing is with peabrain Arians is we won the superbowl despite his horrible playcalling. I will repeat again THE STEELERS WON THE SUPERBOWL DESPITE HIM AND HIS HORRID PLAYCALLING! Just because the defense and big ben carried the team to a sb championship doesn't mean the lame OC who can't call the correct play to save his life is worth something just because he was on a SB winning team. The thing is his gameplans sucked, his playcalling escpecially running Mewelde up the middle and not even attempting to try to fool defenses. He is unimaginative he just runs basic plays and runs him so the whole world knows what he's running next. Another problem is the fact that running the no huddle works for the offense yet he never uses it before the final minutes of each half.

i always strive to point out that he calls very few counter blitz plays. we get blitzed alot.

theres zero deception in most of his plays.

when ben runs no huddle is arians actually calling the plays or is ben on his own?
if ben is calling the plays or more audibles that would pretty much prove your point because the no huddle usually runs real nice.

simonsfs30
06-18-2009, 02:43 PM
when ben runs no huddle is arians actually calling the plays or is ben on his own?
if ben is calling the plays or more audibles that would pretty much prove your point because the no huddle usually runs real nice.

gotta agree with that

thumper
06-18-2009, 02:45 PM
The thing is with peabrain Arians is we won the superbowl despite his horrible playcalling. I will repeat again THE STEELERS WON THE SUPERBOWL DESPITE HIM AND HIS HORRID PLAYCALLING! Just because the defense and big ben carried the team to a sb championship doesn't mean the lame OC who can't call the correct play to save his life is worth something just because he was on a SB winning team. The thing is his gameplans sucked, his playcalling escpecially running Mewelde up the middle and not even attempting to try to fool defenses. He is unimaginative he just runs basic plays and runs him so the whole world knows what he's running next. Another problem is the fact that running the no huddle works for the offense yet he never uses it before the final minutes of each half.

:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::hatso ff::hatsoff::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

X-Terminator
06-18-2009, 03:18 PM
The thing is with peabrain Arians is we won the superbowl despite his horrible playcalling. I will repeat again THE STEELERS WON THE SUPERBOWL DESPITE HIM AND HIS HORRID PLAYCALLING! Just because the defense and big ben carried the team to a sb championship doesn't mean the lame OC who can't call the correct play to save his life is worth something just because he was on a SB winning team. The thing is his gameplans sucked, his playcalling escpecially running Mewelde up the middle and not even attempting to try to fool defenses. He is unimaginative he just runs basic plays and runs him so the whole world knows what he's running next. Another problem is the fact that running the no huddle works for the offense yet he never uses it before the final minutes of each half.

And yet, he still has a job. If the FO thought he was sooooooooo damn horrible, they would have canned his ass despite winning the Super Bowl. They didn't. Why? Because of the one thing that makes the Steelers' franchise the envy of everyone else in pro sports - CONTINUITY. Firing Arians would have given Ben his FOURTH OC in 6 years, with Mularkey and Whisenhunt coming before him. You want to tell me how that's good for the starting QB and the offense, having to learn a different system every 2 years? But yet, if you and the rest of the armchair GMs had their way, that's exactly what we'd get. I agree with revs - I'm glad none of you guys are running the franchise. We'd turn into the Redskins within a year.

Steel Head
06-18-2009, 03:40 PM
The thing is with peabrain Arians is we won the superbowl despite his horrible playcalling. I will repeat again THE STEELERS WON THE SUPERBOWL DESPITE HIM AND HIS HORRID PLAYCALLING! Just because the defense and big ben carried the team to a sb championship doesn't mean the lame OC who can't call the correct play to save his life is worth something just because he was on a SB winning team. The thing is his gameplans sucked, his playcalling escpecially running Mewelde up the middle and not even attempting to try to fool defenses. He is unimaginative he just runs basic plays and runs him so the whole world knows what he's running next. Another problem is the fact that running the no huddle works for the offense yet he never uses it before the final minutes of each half.

quoted for truth

:hatsoff:

fansince'76
06-18-2009, 03:42 PM
Anyone sitting there and saying "Our running game is fine; it was only because of our injuries and schedule that made us the 4th worst ypc team in the league" you are fully delusional. And those who think "It doesn't matter; we won the Super Bowl" you will be sadly mistaken to find out that a rushing attack that weak will never win the SB again.

If it forces folks like you to vacate the bandwagon stage left, it just might be worth it. :coffee:

MACH1
06-18-2009, 04:01 PM
Bandwagoners here? Nahhhh

St33lersguy
06-18-2009, 04:20 PM
And yet, he still has a job. If the FO thought he was sooooooooo damn horrible, they would have canned his ass despite winning the Super Bowl. They didn't. Why? Because of the one thing that makes the Steelers' franchise the envy of everyone else in pro sports - CONTINUITY. Firing Arians would have given Ben his FOURTH OC in 6 years, with Mularkey and Whisenhunt coming before him. You want to tell me how that's good for the starting QB and the offense, having to learn a different system every 2 years? But yet, if you and the rest of the armchair GMs had their way, that's exactly what we'd get. I agree with revs - I'm glad none of you guys are running the franchise. We'd turn into the Redskins within a year.
Yes there is continuity but would you rather have an excellent OC coming in for his 1st year or a crappy OC that's been there for a few years.
P.S. Mike Mularkey was never the OC in ben's career, he left before the 04 season

thumper
06-18-2009, 04:41 PM
If it forces folks like you to vacate the bandwagon stage left, it just might be worth it. :coffee:

Don't confuse passion and knowledge for lack of loyalty. It is illogical to think that refusing to see clear faults in the team makes you a better fan. It probably does the exact opposite: Not recognizing glaring chinks in the armor doesn't make you a superior fan; it makes you an ignorant one.

The Steelers - a team wholly committed to rushing the ball - put up a yard per carry average one tenth a yard better than lowly Cincinnati...CINCINNATI! The Steelers' rushing average of 3.7. In the play offs, their average yards per carry was 2.9! And yet some of you think there isn't a problem with the rushing attack - in play calling and/or personnel.

Can you even grasp how potent a team we'd be with a legit rushing attack? It would make Pgh unstoppable. But as it is now, we have to pray for miracles from Ben and our defense. Look at the Super Bowl: When they tried to rush the ball to bleed the clock in the 2nd half, they couldn't do it and it almost cost us the game. If we had a rushing attack as good the typical, full-back system in Pgh. AZ would never have even made it a game.

Yes, they won. It was awesome. But refuse to address obvious faults is asking to not win another one. Look at the Pats: They never stop trying to improve. If Pgh wants any chance to repeat, they must improve their awful rushing attack.

mmalone
06-18-2009, 04:46 PM
Bandwagoners here? Nahhhh

Black and gold since 1969... i was 8.

I dont think debating over a 22nd ranked offense makes you a fair weather fan.

tony hipchest
06-18-2009, 04:51 PM
Don't confuse passion and knowledge for lack of loyalty. It is illogical to think that refusing to see clear faults in the team makes you a better fan. It probably does the exact opposite: Not recognizing glaring chinks in the armor doesn't make you a superior fan; it makes you an ignorant one.

lets be clear here. its comments like these that make you an ignorant fan-

This, that and the other thing: We had the 4th worst ypc in the entire league. I don't care about all the excuses; we couldn't run the ball. We might have played some good Ds but we still played plenty of bad ones. No excuses. We outright sucked at rushing the football

even with evidence to the contrary...

fansince'76
06-18-2009, 05:02 PM
Yes, they won. It was awesome. But refuse to address obvious faults is asking to not win another one. Look at the Pats: They never stop trying to improve. If Pgh wants any chance to repeat, they must improve their awful rushing attack.

Let's play "pick the anomaly."

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/garyb12001/Rushing.jpg

Now, which of these season performances are the anomalies, and which are the norm and can be more reasonably expected from this team? I would say 2003 and 2008 for the former and the other eight out of ten seasons for the latter. I'm not too concerned about it at this point. How many titles have the Pats won in the last 5 years? How many have we won? Yeah, I thought so. I'm sorry, but I'm thoroughly sick of that POS franchise being held up as the standard bearer.

thumper
06-18-2009, 05:25 PM
lets be clear here. its comments like these that make you an ignorant fan-



even with evidence to the contrary...

Nice. Zero assertions with supporting data or proof statements. Clueless in Seattle. Pgh put up an amazing 2.9 ypc in the post season, and the slack jaws still think there is no problem with the rushing game. :rofl:

T.Richardson
06-18-2009, 05:40 PM
Don't confuse passion and knowledge for lack of loyalty. It is illogical to think that refusing to see clear faults in the team makes you a better fan. It probably does the exact opposite: Not recognizing glaring chinks in the armor doesn't make you a superior fan; it makes you an ignorant one.

The Steelers - a team wholly committed to rushing the ball - put up a yard per carry average one tenth a yard better than lowly Cincinnati...CINCINNATI! The Steelers' rushing average of 3.7. In the play offs, their average yards per carry was 2.9! And yet some of you think there isn't a problem with the rushing attack - in play calling and/or personnel.

Can you even grasp how potent a team we'd be with a legit rushing attack? It would make Pgh unstoppable. But as it is now, we have to pray for miracles from Ben and our defense. Look at the Super Bowl: When they tried to rush the ball to bleed the clock in the 2nd half, they couldn't do it and it almost cost us the game. If we had a rushing attack as good the typical, full-back system in Pgh. AZ would never have even made it a game.

Yes, they won. It was awesome. But refuse to address obvious faults is asking to not win another one. Look at the Pats: They never stop trying to improve. If Pgh wants any chance to repeat, they must improve their awful rushing attack.

A fullback will NOT, I repeat NOT enhance the running attack.

Parker/Mendenhall were both injured, Arians only had a career back up player in Moore, and inexperienced Russell, and a soft, I mean SOFT Fullback Davis. No matter what OC the Steelers had, even if we had Lorenzo Neal, the running attack would still have been the bottom of the league, because the Steelers had a really difficult schedule, with most of them having top defenses.

When Parker, and Mendenhall are healthy and playing, then you can assess the running attack. Until then, just stop with the "playcalling"

Also, committment to running the ball isnt going to win games. How many Superbowls has Cowher won with Bettis, and the power running game?

T.Richardson
06-18-2009, 05:45 PM
The thing is with peabrain Arians is we won the superbowl despite his horrible playcalling. I will repeat again THE STEELERS WON THE SUPERBOWL DESPITE HIM AND HIS HORRID PLAYCALLING! Just because the defense and big ben carried the team to a sb championship doesn't mean the lame OC who can't call the correct play to save his life is worth something just because he was on a SB winning team. The thing is his gameplans sucked, his playcalling escpecially running Mewelde up the middle and not even attempting to try to fool defenses. He is unimaginative he just runs basic plays and runs him so the whole world knows what he's running next. Another problem is the fact that running the no huddle works for the offense yet he never uses it before the final minutes of each half.

"HE should have called a running play!! gahh!!"

"HE should have called a passing play!! gah!!!"

Hindsight bias at its best! Thats what I heard everytime, and frankly Im sick of hearing about it.

Preacher
06-18-2009, 05:54 PM
Nice. Zero assertions with supporting data or proof statements. Clueless in Seattle. Pgh put up an amazing 2.9 ypc in the post season, and the slack jaws still think there is no problem with the rushing game. :rofl:

:rofl:

And the blind squirrel continues to hold on to the one acorn like its all that exists.

Oh, I don't know, Let's look at REAL STATS AGAIN --winners of the Superbowl against an opponenet

2008: Steelers win, with a LOWER YPR average.
2007: Giants win, with a HIGHER YPR average
2006 Colts win, with a LOWER YPR average
2005 Steelers win YPR average TIED (But wait, Willie's big run shouldnt count in stats, least that's what we are told, so the Seahawks outrushed us. Right?)
2004 Pats cheated to win, with a HIGHER YPR average.
2003 Pats cheated to win, with a LOWER YPR average
2002 Tampa bay win, with a Higher YPR average
2001 Pats cheated to win, with a Higher YPR average
2000 Ravens win, with ---that's right LOWER YPR average.
1999 Rams win, with a LOWER YPR average
1998 Broncos win, with a LOWER YPR average
1997 Broncos win, with a LOWER YPR average
1996 Green Bay wins, with a LOWER YPR average
1995 Dallas wins, with a LOWER YPR average
1994 San Fran wins with a HIgher YPR average

_______________________________________________

So in the last 15 years, the team that has a BETTER rush average LOSES 2 out of every three times.

In other words.....

I DONT CARE ABOUT RUSH AVERAGES I CARE ABOUT SUPERBOWL WINS

and we have that.

End of Discussion.

steelreserve
06-18-2009, 06:12 PM
Oh, I don't know, Let's look at REAL STATS AGAIN --winners of the Superbowl against an opponenet
...

So in the last 15 years, the team that has a BETTER rush average LOSES 2 out of every three times.

In other words.....

I DONT CARE ABOUT RUSH AVERAGES I CARE ABOUT SUPERBOWL WINS

and we have that.

End of Discussion.

Are you talking about rushing average actually IN the Super Bowl itself? Because that really shouldn't make very much difference; anything can happen in one game. I'd be more worried about the fact that if you have a low rushing average during the regular season, it's a bad sign and you tend to have a lot harder time even making it to the Super Bowl in the first place. As always, there are exceptions, but that's where the meat of that argument is if you ask me.

If that's what you were talking about in the first place, I apologize for the interruption.

wezx
06-18-2009, 06:26 PM
I've just finished watching the playoff games in the boxed set from last year and several times I noticed Phil Simms in particular mention the excellent play calling of Bruce Arians. I think Phil Simms is pretty knowledgable about football, isn't he? Were we perfect?...of course not. Could we have been better in various areas?...sure. BUT, the proof is in the pudding, and if you lose the game it really doesn't matter what your stats say (ask the Pats after the Giants beat them and ruined their perfect season...do you think they really cared what their stats were???). I like the job our coaches have been doing for the last several years and I like the way Mike Tomlin conducts himself. I firmly believe the Steelers front office is one of the best (and classiest) in football, so I refuse to sit back in my armchair and play coach or quarterback or any other position. These guys have been successful. They know a hell of a lot more about football than any of us. And I'm just going to continue enjoying our Super Bowl XLIII victory!

tony hipchest
06-18-2009, 08:54 PM
Nice. Zero assertions with supporting data or proof statements. Clueless in Seattle. Pgh put up an amazing 2.9 ypc in the post season, and the slack jaws still think there is no problem with the rushing game. :rofl::applaudit:bravo! you proved my point for me. dumbass.

wtf are you talking about. you dont care about all the excuses??? its pretty obvious you dont care about all the facts either.

either come correct or dont come at all, otherwise your opinions really dont mean shit (especially with the drivel posted above.

here are some facts:

including playoffs willie started 14 games. of those he had 20+ carries 7 times.

wk...att/yds/ypc

1....25/138/5.5
2....28/105/3.8
9....21/ 70/3.3
11..25/115/4.6
17..23.116/5.0
19..27/146/5.4
20..24/ 47/2.0

i'll throw in the patriots game too as these 8 games represent his most productive efforts-

13..16/87/5.4

all 8 games are wins. half average more than 5 ypc. 5 of the 8 are 100+ yds. take away his longest run in just about everyone averaging 4.6 or above and he still averages 4.0 ypc.

what about that sucks, or shows we "cant run the ball"?

in the 6 games he played not listed here 2 were against baltimore, 1 vs philly, dallas, and tennessee (all staunch run defenses) .

you doom & gloomers and fantasy football geeks need to keep it grounded in reality.

theres a reason why when the steelers face the vikings this season, a. peterson will average less than 3.8 ypc and its NOT because he sucks or because they cant run the ball.

theres a reason the likes ot LT and larry johnson in the primes of their careers, were skunked vs the steelers and its not because they sucked either.


still no answer, huh?

didnt think so. :coffee:

X-Terminator
06-18-2009, 09:01 PM
Yes there is continuity but would you rather have an excellent OC coming in for his 1st year or a crappy OC that's been there for a few years.
P.S. Mike Mularkey was never the OC in ben's career, he left before the 04 season

My bad on Mularkey, but it doesn't change my opinion. That would be 3 OCs in 6 years, which is too much turnover. Arians is not the best OC in the league, but he's not the worst either, and not nearly as bad as the detractors make him out to be. Hell, I'm not even a huge fan of the man myself, but I'm not going to sit here, blame him and ONLY him for the offense's struggles and demand he be fired. And besides, Ben likes him, and that is enough for management. Above all else, you have to keep the franchise QB happy.

Preacher
06-18-2009, 10:11 PM
Are you talking about rushing average actually IN the Super Bowl itself? Because that really shouldn't make very much difference; anything can happen in one game. I'd be more worried about the fact that if you have a low rushing average during the regular season, it's a bad sign and you tend to have a lot harder time even making it to the Super Bowl in the first place. As always, there are exceptions, but that's where the meat of that argument is if you ask me.

If that's what you were talking about in the first place, I apologize for the interruption.

I understand what your saying, but I was responding to his argument directly. He argued that our 2.9 ypc rushing in the playoffs last year means we have a horrible run game and that Arians sucks and that we won't win again blah blah blah.

My point was that the run average in the playoffs doesn't mean anything, and used the last 15 SB's as an example. Furthermore, if you take the SB out, that means we had about 200 plus yards on about 50 attempts, which is about a 4 ypc average.

___________________________-

NOW, To what YOU are saying.. . . that is a much more logical argument. Let me check the stats . . . I'll post them below....

SB Winners/YPC/ Percent run plays (vs pass plays)
Steelers 3.7 48% run Arizona 3.5 41% run
Giants 4.6 46% run Pats 4.1 43% run
Colts 4.0 44% run Bears 3.8 49% run
Steelers 4.0 55% run Seahawks 4.7 52% run
Patriots 4.1 52% run Ealges 4.4 40% run

So what we learn from this is,

1. The average SB winning team over the last 5 years has ran the ball an average of 49 percent of the time... or is a slightly pass first offense.

2. The average SB losing team over the last 5 yers has ran the ball an average of 45 % of the time, or is a bit more pass first offense.

When a statistical T-test is applied to these numbers, there is only an 22 percent possibility that the difference in these percentages are actually significant. Which means too big a deal is made about winning by the run vs. pass. Furthermore, only 1 team in the last five years was a run heavy offense, as that was the Steelers. Interestingly, we all know that was actually a pass first, run second offense.

3. The Steelers had a HIGHER YPC than their popponent going into the SB, but a lower one in the SB.

Giants were higher both times

Colts were higher, but won with a lower YPC than their opponent in the SB

Steelers had a lower YPC in the reg. season, tied with Seattle in the SB (take away Willies big run, Steelers are lower in the SB).

Pats had a higher percentage both times.

Which all means the SB teams win usually with a LOWER YPC than the opponents in the SB, and the average yards per run in the reg. season vs. SB breaks somewhat evenly, with three of the winners having the higher yearly average.

____________

WHat does this all mean? It means that teams must be VERY good at one aspect of the offense and pretty dang good at the other.

The STeelers are VERY good at passing the ball. So all this crying and moaning about running the ball is offseason stupidity because certain people aren't being entertained by their team the way THEY WANT.

The facts simply DO NOT BACK UP the fact that we need to have a bruising back, or a run heavy offense to win the SB. Matter of fact, the facts back up that in the SB, the run is SLOWED DOWN by the losing team. . . which is why the PASS GAME is MORE IMPORTANT to win the SB.

Now... Let's count how many AFCCG's and SB's we lost in the 90's and early 2000's, shall we?

Were we a run or a pass offense then?

Steelers & I
06-19-2009, 04:05 AM
Hard to say for sure, since I'm making judicious use of the ignore feature, but it looks like this thread has taken a definite turn for the worse.

Anyway, the fact remains, it's really super easy to blame the OC for all the problems of an offense. That's the lazy mans excuse, though, especially since the FO of the best run organization in the NFL, perhaps all of sports, doesn't share the sentiment.


Definitely the best run organization in all of sports but they've DEFINITELY made their share of mistakes.

Dare I say:

Jermaine Stephens, Ricardo Colclough, Kordell Stewart, Troy Edwards, Aaron Jones, Troy Edwards, Second round draft choices in 3 consecutive years: Will Blackwell (1997), Jeremy Staat (1998), and Scott Shields (1999). I won't even get into the Dan Marino and Rod Woodson situations.

To add a little flavor to the conversation, I've provided a link below that covers this topic: Best And Worst NFL Draft Teams

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/nfl-draft-teams-lifestyle-sports-nfl-draft.html

Fancesince76 was correct when he said that the New England Patriots organization IS NOT the franchise that other organizations should model themselves after. The Patriots, over the previous 3 seasons, have been the worst drafting team in the NFL according to the formula used by Forbes. The Steelers don't have much to boast about, they ranked 3rd from the bottom.

Now don't get me wrong, I too believe that the Steelers are the best run organization in all of sports, but they aren't without fail. So maybe, just maybe, Bruce Arians may someday be added to the list of unmentionables.

St33lersguy
06-19-2009, 09:26 AM
"HE should have called a running play!! gahh!!"

"HE should have called a passing play!! gah!!!"

Hindsight bias at its best! Thats what I heard everytime, and frankly Im sick of hearing about it.

So it's hindsight bias. I am pointing out facts and the truth and yes his plays really are unimaginative. No he doesn't try to fool teams. He could run a gadget play while leading by less than a TD in the 4th quarter that could really fool a team maybe for a backbreaking TD but he just does the same thing. Also what about the no huddle, time and time again it worked and yet he rarely uses it. The reality is his neanderthal plays are easy to stop and he attacks the strength of a D instead of trying to exploit weakness. If you think this is hindsight bias point out a positive and something he has done that has helped our offense.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-19-2009, 10:06 AM
Arians is anything but unimaginative. I have only called games at a highschool level, but knowing a bit of what its like to have to call a game from the sidelines. I find his playcalling and feel for the flow of the game to be are very impressive to watch at times.

I dont agree with his lack of committment to run the football at times, but he for the most part calls a great game based upon the offensive scheme he runs.

GBMelBlount
06-19-2009, 10:44 AM
I dont agree with his lack of committment to run the football at times, but he for the most part calls a great game based upon the offensive scheme he runs.

Lack of commitment to the run?

Sorry El-Gonzo, but with all due respect I felt there were WAY too many predictable run calls that went nowhere last year.

revefsreleets
06-19-2009, 11:04 AM
Don't confuse passion and knowledge for lack of loyalty. It is illogical to think that refusing to see clear faults in the team makes you a better fan. It probably does the exact opposite: Not recognizing glaring chinks in the armor doesn't make you a superior fan; it makes you an ignorant one.

The Steelers - a team wholly committed to rushing the ball - put up a yard per carry average one tenth a yard better than lowly Cincinnati...CINCINNATI! The Steelers' rushing average of 3.7. In the play offs, their average yards per carry was 2.9! And yet some of you think there isn't a problem with the rushing attack - in play calling and/or personnel.

Can you even grasp how potent a team we'd be with a legit rushing attack? It would make Pgh unstoppable. But as it is now, we have to pray for miracles from Ben and our defense. Look at the Super Bowl: When they tried to rush the ball to bleed the clock in the 2nd half, they couldn't do it and it almost cost us the game. If we had a rushing attack as good the typical, full-back system in Pgh. AZ would never have even made it a game.

Yes, they won. It was awesome. But refuse to address obvious faults is asking to not win another one. Look at the Pats: They never stop trying to improve. If Pgh wants any chance to repeat, they must improve their awful rushing attack.

You actually made a solid point here, and did it without resorting to ALL ad hominem attacks (which you and your boy Chep seem to thrive on), just a few of them, which is a big step for you. Attacking the poster is a common tactic of the ill-informed and arrogant, so I understand where you are coming from though.

With a solid rushing attack, the Steelers would be a vastly improved team, which is, um, probably why they:

A) Drafted a big powerful RB #1 last year
B) Drafted a bigger, more powerful, short yardage FB #5 this year
C) Drafted Urbik #3 this year.

The other garbage you post is just that. The red herring about running Parker up the middle is ridiculously myopic, as is your hate of Arians and general ignorance of an NFL offense. The Kordell issue is a strange one to tout, too, because Cowher was certainly in his corner, and he did have a decent year or two. But I did want to give you SOME credit, because the blind squirrel found a nut here.

Sweeps all the time? Just exaggerating for effect, but I realize when dealing with the, um, least sharpest pencils in the box the subtlety and sarcasm may WHOOSH over some heads.

Also, concerning commitment to the run, you can't have it both ways. If you want to line up and impose your will on the opposition, you just line up in a run formation, run the football, and dare them to stop you. Watch the last few minutes of the Seattle super bowl and you'll see the Steelers executing that to perfection. We weren't set up to do that last year, and I sometimes wonder if Arians maybe kowtowed to the naysayers a bit too much by trying it on occasion whilst lacking the personnel to actually pull it off.

This just displays the misunderstandings that occur here. You guys want, what? Tricksy run plays? You'll just hate on Arians for calling gadget plays. If we run more in general, especially with the wrong personnel, well, more hate. And we certainly can't pass more. Adding a FB is a nice change of pace, and that's exactly what they did on occasion, but Arians doesn't generally run that type of offense (which may be changing next year, hence the clear personnel moves), and I'm PRETTY sure the FO knows that and knew it when they hired him and kept him.

Bottom line: The ignorant and lazy will blame the easiest target, which is the path of least resistance and requires the least understanding of the game, analysis and critical thinking. That's "Blame Arians!".

Dino 6 Rings
06-19-2009, 11:58 AM
In order to win again, the Steelers must improve, not just stay the same. That much is known by all fans with understanding of what it takes.

Last year, we improved our kick coverage, one of our weekest areas. This year we are making a solid attempt to improve our kick return game. Also, we are obviously addressing our Running Game with the drafting of a FB, and offensive line depth being drafted as well.

We had a very good passing game, but are actually trying to improve it as well by bringing in a "vet" to push our young talent to the level of not being as good as Nate, but Better than Nate ever was. That's the goal.

Our Defense must also Improve, the D Line was drafted, our 1st round pick is now a Starter on the Defense at Linebacker. He must get better each day to live up to his expectations.

Bruce like any OC, had some bad days, and some good days. Somedays the game took over his calling with a great defensive play by the other team, an INT here, a Fumble There or a Sack that turned a 1st and 10 into a 2nd and 18. His offense is designed to have longer pass plays and a longer development period, its not dink and dunk, its let longer routes develop for bigger plays more often, forcing the Safety out of the box into coverage allowing the Running Back more room in the box on Run plays. It works to a point, just like any offense.

I look foward to seeing His OC improvement this off season, just as much as I look forward to seeing Coach Dad's new defense that they said he was working on.

Folks...

I GOT A FEELING

revefsreleets
06-19-2009, 12:07 PM
Yeah, let me clarify one thing.

The simpletons explanation for the offensive troubles: "It's all Arians fault".

The REAL explanation for our offensive lack of productivity last year:
1) Offensive line weaknesses (both rushing and pass protection)
2) Ben sometimes holds the ball too long
3) Lack of power running back, i.e. no thunder to go along with the lightning. You can't just rip the thunder plays out of the book which leads to...
4) Having to run plays that you may not have the ideal personnel for and, finally
5) An offensive coordinator who does not run the ideal offense for the personnel the team is fielding.

The last two are where most of the casual fans misunderstanding comes into play. People get fiery and passionate about it, but the FACT is that a lot of our troubles stem from the complexities of 4 and 5. It's WAY easy to dump this all in Arians lap, but it's just not a viable excuse. It looks like the Steelers have taken some serious steps to address 1, 3, 4 and 5. 2 is what it is. They knew that when they drafted him.

devilsdancefloor
06-19-2009, 12:18 PM
Anybody that is still whining about Arians is obviously just another attention ho' suffering from Tiny Penis Syndrome.

My condolences.

You sir have just WON quote of the year!!!

devilsdancefloor
06-19-2009, 12:19 PM
Anybody that is still whining about Arians is obviously just another attention ho' suffering from Tiny Penis Syndrome.

My condolences.

You sir have just WON quote of the year award!!!

mmalone
06-19-2009, 03:02 PM
The STeelers are VERY good at passing the ball. So all this crying and moaning about running the ball is offseason stupidity because certain people aren't being entertained by their team the way THEY WANT.


Wow, are you kidding, its just a football debate online about our offense being ranked 22nd.... Its an arm chair debate.... without me seeing you drink a beer.

what would you talk about in the bar with your steelers buddies... all the great plays about the game... cool. maybe some bad points ... what a crappy punt??? probably.... what a bad interception.... who missed that route?? of course it was Nate..

so, what did you talk about after game 4 with the Eagles in 2008?? How great our offense looked.??... How funny Ben looked on his butt all day??. How cool it was to see the Eagles stomp us like little girls.... How crappy a 22nd ranked offense looks.... that was an ugly game.

but, how about the 1st quarter of the Super Bowl. we played with deception, counter plays, pass plays with slants and screens, counter blitz plays a couple runs. the cardinals were totally confused... we played awesome. i was watching and saying to my pals, where was this all year. then we hit 20 points and i seen the same run it up the middle plays over and over in the later quarters.... like a German Soccer team with a 2-0 lead, they go conservative and shut down the offfense and play defense to win. it could be a good strategy.. we won, but it is boring. maybe thats why the sports people in the media like the pats offense, because they never sit down and just continue to crush you until your dead and buried.

isnt this what this board is for.. to talk about the games, the players, the coaches, the game plans...

we have to do something till august...

Dino 6 Rings
06-19-2009, 05:24 PM
we have to do something till august... Could always talk about GI Joe and Zombies!!!

thumper
06-19-2009, 05:47 PM
You actually made a solid point here, and did it without resorting to ALL ad hominem attacks (which you and your boy Chep seem to thrive on), just a few of them, which is a big step for you. Attacking the poster is a common tactic of the ill-informed and arrogant, so I understand where you are coming from though.

Bottom line: The ignorant and lazy will blame the easiest target, which is the path of least resistance and requires the least understanding of the game, analysis and critical thinking. That's "Blame Arians!".

Go look up the word "hypocrisy" and get back to me. I will wait here for you.

You voted for McCain? Why am I not surprised you fail to see the most obvious trends and truths?

Dino 6 Rings
06-19-2009, 05:51 PM
Thumper, cut out the personal attacks man. Your point is taken, the Steelers need to work on their Running Game. Duh.

Arians made some back play calls. Yep. Made some damn good ones too.

Super Bowl Winners

Parker had a down year, yep, but he's better than 25 other starters in the NFL.

Ben gets hit too much, Yep. But he makes amazing plays when he's running around and the defense doesn't know whether to cry or wind its watch (mike lange)

thumper
06-19-2009, 06:00 PM
Black and gold since 1969... i was 8.

I dont think debating over a 22nd ranked offense makes you a fair weather fan.

It was never about the 22nd ranked O (although we can have that discussion, as it is related to this one.)

It's about the 4th worst ypc in the entire NFL (a sign of a horrible rushing attack), on a team that LIVES to run the ball (and can't do it due to crap OL play and poor play calling.)

Dino 6 Rings
06-19-2009, 06:04 PM
It was never about the 22nd ranked D (although we can have that discussion, as it is related to this one.)

It's about the 4th worst ypc in the entire NFL (a sign of a horrible rushing attack), on a team that LIVES to run the ball (and can't do it due to crap OL play and poor play calling.)

Thumper...seriously....

Since Terry Bradshaw was the QB of this team, we've had a Running Game and a Great Defense...but once Terry Retired...and we still had a Running Game and Great Defense we didn't win Shiiiiit until...Ben.

Ben is a great QB. He Throws the Ball. We now Throw the ball to win. Go watch all the Barry Foster, Bam Morris and Jerome Bettis highlights you want, but when you get to the Playoffs or the Super Bowl, if Ben isn't under center, turn if off because you're going to end up being Disappointed.

HometownGal
06-19-2009, 06:47 PM
You voted for McCain? Why am I not surprised you fail to see the most obvious trends and truths?

How' bout we leave politics out of this forum, please?

revefsreleets
06-20-2009, 11:00 AM
I'm totally NOT surprised we'd have the worst 4th QTR YPC. I'd, in fact, expect it...

We run the ball to protect the lead, and play great defense. THAT, my friends, IS Steelers football. We line up, show our hand, basically TELL the other team we're going to run, and dare them to stop us.

If you don't understand that concept, well...

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-20-2009, 12:47 PM
Hard to say for sure, since I'm making judicious use of the ignore feature, but it looks like this thread has taken a definite turn for the worse.

.

Its been "Chepped":shake01:

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-20-2009, 12:52 PM
Fancesince76 was correct when he said that the New England Patriots organization IS NOT the franchise that other organizations should model themselves after. The Patriots, over the previous 3 seasons, have been the worst drafting team in the NFL according to the formula used by Forbes. The Steelers don't have much to boast about, they ranked 3rd from the bottom.
.

I read that article also..very good read.

But when talking about ANY draft class you have to take UDFA's into consideration, which raises the Steelers ability to find talent considerably.

Preacher
06-20-2009, 04:06 PM
Wow, are you kidding, its just a football debate online about our offense being ranked 22nd.... Its an arm chair debate.... without me seeing you drink a beer.

what would you talk about in the bar with your steelers buddies... all the great plays about the game... cool. maybe some bad points ... what a crappy punt??? probably.... what a bad interception.... who missed that route?? of course it was Nate..

so, what did you talk about after game 4 with the Eagles in 2008?? How great our offense looked.??... How funny Ben looked on his butt all day??. How cool it was to see the Eagles stomp us like little girls.... How crappy a 22nd ranked offense looks.... that was an ugly game.

but, how about the 1st quarter of the Super Bowl. we played with deception, counter plays, pass plays with slants and screens, counter blitz plays a couple runs. the cardinals were totally confused... we played awesome. i was watching and saying to my pals, where was this all year. then we hit 20 points and i seen the same run it up the middle plays over and over in the later quarters.... like a German Soccer team with a 2-0 lead, they go conservative and shut down the offfense and play defense to win. it could be a good strategy.. we won, but it is boring. maybe thats why the sports people in the media like the pats offense, because they never sit down and just continue to crush you until your dead and buried.

isnt this what this board is for.. to talk about the games, the players, the coaches, the game plans...

we have to do something till august...

Because there is a major difference between a constructive discussion and a destructive discussion. Too many think this board is their personal group counseling session to yell and scream about how this person or that person sucks. . . and then get all uppity when someone dares counter them.

If it was simply, "what can we do different this year in the run" or "Look at these statistics" or blah blah blah... that's one thing. But, "Arians sucks,(or willie sucks, ben sucks, Coach Z sucks, the Front line sucks, or some other aspect of the Steelers suck) and you're the fan police if you disagree" is WAY over the top and pretty much every thread concerning this team inevitably winds up there.

Sadly, the latter is what this board has become over the last year.

mmalone
06-20-2009, 04:37 PM
Because there is a major difference between a constructive discussion and a destructive discussion. Too many think this board is their personal group counseling session to yell and scream about how this person or that person sucks. . . and then get all uppity when someone dares counter them.

If it was simply, "what can we do different this year in the run" or "Look at these statistics" or blah blah blah... that's one thing. But, "Arians sucks,(or willie sucks, ben sucks, Coach Z sucks, the Front line sucks, or some other aspect of the Steelers suck) and you're the fan police if you disagree" is WAY over the top and pretty much every thread concerning this team inevitably winds up there.

Sadly, the latter is what this board has become over the last year.

Well i guess that is the nature of debate. we cant debate much over the defense getting better they are #1... We could talk about them getting worse but that would be less than constructive.. So i guess it does end up that we talk about the 22nd ranked offense and then talking about ways that would be interesting and inventive to make the offense get better. of course none of us have any control over it and it is just hot air... but it is constructive and positive.

i guess its just logical to find weakness.. i play tennis and say how can i get better, then i look at the scale and say hmm, maybe lose 30lbs and ill be quicker on the old feet... fix the weakness... quit eating.

lets just have open steeler debate and let it play out. august is coming ....

Texasteel
06-20-2009, 04:45 PM
Because there is a major difference between a constructive discussion and a destructive discussion. Too many think this board is their personal group counseling session to yell and scream about how this person or that person sucks. . . and then get all uppity when someone dares counter them.

If it was simply, "what can we do different this year in the run" or "Look at these statistics" or blah blah blah... that's one thing. But, "Arin's sucks,(or Willie sucks, Ben sucks, Coach Z sucks, the Front line sucks, or some other aspect of the Steelers suck) and you're the fan police if you disagree" is WAY over the top and pretty much every thread concerning this team inevitably winds up there.

Sadly, the latter is what this board has become over the last year.

Unfortunately, you can almost just look at the post counts and know who will discuss something like a grown up. and who is going to just start throwing around insults.

There are exception's though.

thumper
06-20-2009, 04:47 PM
Because there is a major difference between a constructive discussion and a destructive discussion. Too many think this board is their personal group counseling session to yell and scream about how this person or that person sucks. . . and then get all uppity when someone dares counter them.

If it was simply, "what can we do different this year in the run" or "Look at these statistics" or blah blah blah... that's one thing. But, "Arians sucks,(or willie sucks, ben sucks, Coach Z sucks, the Front line sucks, or some other aspect of the Steelers suck) and you're the fan police if you disagree" is WAY over the top and pretty much every thread concerning this team inevitably winds up there.

Sadly, the latter is what this board has become over the last year.

If you think this thread is an example of ad hominem attacks and senseless name calling, I've got some news for you: It isn't any where close to excessive along those lines. As a matter of fact, those whining that it's turned into ad hominem attacks are actually leading the instances of AH attack themselves, calling any fan "stupid" who thinks that Adrian's play calling and offensive line play is inferior.

There is about zero ground to defend the fourth-worst yard per carry average on a team that stresses and prioritizes the rushing attack to the level that the Steelers do. And their 2.8 ypc in the post season was horrific. Arians almost cost us the Super Bowl, with his worthless runs up the middle with FWP in the second half, allowing AZ to actually take the lead. If not for Ben's heroics, this striking weakness (OL play and play calling) would have lost us our ring #6.

Without an improvement in play calling and OL rush blocking, we will not see ring #7. The perfect storm to overcome these glaring deficiencies will not occur a 2nd time. A 3.7 ypc for the season and a 2.8 ypc in the post season prove that both the play calling and OL play are major weaknesses on this team....MAJOR.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-20-2009, 04:53 PM
. . . then get all uppity when someone dares counter them.

Sadly, the latter is what this board has become over the last year.

...and it becomes increasingly difficult to stay out of arguments...like this one...because (as I have said) rudeness has become the expedient replacement for knowledge...and arrogance the poor substitute for debate.

Texasteel
06-20-2009, 05:01 PM
...and it becomes increasingly difficult to stay out of arguments...like this one...because (as I have said) rudeness has become the expedient replacement for knowledge...and arrogance the poor substitute for debate.

Have you noticed that we are starting to get more and more that just love talking down to other members. Like thats not an insult.

thumper
06-20-2009, 05:04 PM
Thumper, cut out the personal attacks man. Your point is taken, the Steelers need to work on their Running Game. Duh.

Arians made some back play calls. Yep. Made some damn good ones too.

Super Bowl Winners

Parker had a down year, yep, but he's better than 25 other starters in the NFL.

Ben gets hit too much, Yep. But he makes amazing plays when he's running around and the defense doesn't know whether to cry or wind its watch (mike lange)

in case you missed it, I didn't call anyone names - the supposed "superior" football minds in here did. And then complained that __others__ were making ad hominem attacks. Kind of strange. I find zealots bizarre. They can't admit when their team has flaws. It's bizarre. Putting up ypc #s that are the 4th worst in the league is hard to defend. But some how zealots still will try. The whole thing is very odd.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-20-2009, 05:07 PM
Have you noticed that we are starting to get more and more that just love talking down to other members. Like thats not an insult.

You mean that condescending "I'm enlightened...and you just dont get it" attitude?

My favorite part is that they wait until you leave the board and then scurry back in to make a post insinuating that they somehow "owned" you.

But that seems to be pretty typical...In their minds, forums in general are just mediums for chest puffing and internet flexing.

Being part of a Forum "family" seems to be beyond their comprehension

thumper
06-20-2009, 05:10 PM
Thumper...seriously....

Since Terry Bradshaw was the QB of this team, we've had a Running Game and a Great Defense...but once Terry Retired...and we still had a Running Game and Great Defense we didn't win Shiiiiit until...Ben.

Ben is a great QB. He Throws the Ball. We now Throw the ball to win. Go watch all the Barry Foster, Bam Morris and Jerome Bettis highlights you want, but when you get to the Playoffs or the Super Bowl, if Ben isn't under center, turn if off because you're going to end up being Disappointed.

You're not getting it, at all. I am fine with not rushing the ball as the #1 rushing team (or top 5) in the league. I am keenly aware that in all those Cowher years when we had top rushing attacks and Ds, we didn't win jack shit. I am fully aware having a franchise QB makes all the difference.

THAT BEING SAID, we need either to throw more on 1st and 2nd down OR get better OL play so we don't need MIRACLES to win rings. Knowing our rush sucks, why keep trying it most 1st and 2nd downs? Why not throw more of first and second? You saw what running FWP up the gut did in the Super Bowl: It damn near costs us the game.

If they are going to stick to rushing so much on 1st and 2nd, then they better improve the OL play so it's more successful. If not, then stop wasting so many downs. Mix it up more. The run and shoot put up huge ypc #s, not because that was a good rushing O but because you never knew when it was coming. With this Pgh team, you can cheat knowing they will usually rush 1st and 2nd down, especially if they think they have a lead.

Wake up Arians: Being predictable is NOT a good thing.

thumper
06-20-2009, 05:12 PM
How' bout we leave politics out of this forum, please?

Oh, so I can assume you will make him take that tag line out of every single post, correct? That tag line brings up politics; why should it be allowed to exist in this forum? Do you seek to operate with consistency? I hope so.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-20-2009, 05:16 PM
in case you missed it, I didn't call anyone names - the supposed "superior" football minds in here did. .

Really....?

Originally Posted by thumper
Zero assertions with supporting data or proof statements. Clueless in Seattle.

Originally Posted by thumper
Not recognizing glaring chinks in the armor doesn't make you a superior fan; it makes you an ignorant one.

Originally Posted by thumper
It's a sophomoric move and proves nothing whatsoever

Nice try skippy.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-20-2009, 05:17 PM
Oh, so I can assume you will make him take that tag line out of every single post, correct? That tag line brings up politics; why should it be allowed to exist in this forum? Do you seek to operate with consistency? I hope so.

You can't be this dense....His tag attacks no one personally...your post did.:doh:

thumper
06-20-2009, 05:22 PM
I'm totally NOT surprised we'd have the worst 4th QTR YPC. I'd, in fact, expect it...

We run the ball to protect the lead, and play great defense. THAT, my friends, IS Steelers football. We line up, show our hand, basically TELL the other team we're going to run, and dare them to stop us.

If you don't understand that concept, well...

Ummm, I understand that if you want to bleed the clock it sure helps if you can gain some first downs in the process. A 2.8 ypc isn't getting it done, regardless of the strategy. Pre-Arians Steelers teams COULD rush the ball, and get first down in the process to procure a win. Arians system/O-line stinks to bad, that it can't do it. We saw the perfect example in the Super Bowl and had to have Ben save our ass once again. A Belichick team would have never lost that lead, because BB remains unpredictable and keeps making first downs and keeps scoring.

Preacher
06-20-2009, 05:22 PM
You're not getting it, at all. I am fine with not rushing the ball as the #1 rushing team (or top 5) in the league. I am keenly aware that in all those Cowher years when we had top rushing attacks and Ds, we didn't win jack shit. I am fully aware having a franchise QB makes all the difference.

THAT BEING SAID, we need either to throw more on 1st and 2nd down OR get better OL play so we don't need MIRACLES to win rings. Knowing our rush sucks, why keep trying it most 1st and 2nd downs? Why not throw more of first and second? You saw what running FWP up the gut did in the Super Bowl: It damn near costs us the game.

If they are going to stick to rushing so much on 1st and 2nd, then they better improve the OL play so it's more successful. If not, then stop wasting so many downs. Mix it up more. The run and shoot put up huge ypc #s, not because that was a good rushing O but because you never knew when it was coming. With this Pgh team, you can cheat knowing they will usually rush 1st and 2nd down, especially if they think they have a lead.

Wake up Arians: Being predictable is NOT a good thing.

And this post is the EXACT EXAMPLE of what I have been talking about.

There are so many ABSOLUTES in this post, that really, are nothing but opinion.

Then, the continued repeating of the SAME MANTRAS because someone disagrees, as if repeating yourself will make someone else say, "Oh... Dang... I didn't get it the first 3 times. Thanks. NOW I understand."

Texasteel
06-20-2009, 05:51 PM
Oh, so I can assume you will make him take that tag line out of every single post, correct? That tag line brings up politics; why should it be allowed to exist in this forum? Do you seek to operate with consistency? I hope so.

Talking down to HTG is NOT a good idea.

X-Terminator
06-20-2009, 05:55 PM
Oh, so I can assume you will make him take that tag line out of every single post, correct? That tag line brings up politics; why should it be allowed to exist in this forum? Do you seek to operate with consistency? I hope so.

You do realize that you can't turn off your signature from one forum to the next, correct? What do you think this is, the Magic Message Board? A person can put anything they want in their signature so long as it does not violate the COC.

HometownGal
06-20-2009, 06:20 PM
Oh, so I can assume you will make him take that tag line out of every single post, correct? That tag line brings up politics; why should it be allowed to exist in this forum?

Never assume. You have a 50% chance of being wrong.

Do you seek to operate with consistency? I hope so

All I can tell ya pal is that if you and a couple of others in this thread don't knock it the hell off with the baiting and fly-fishing, you're going to find out real fast and in a hurry how "consistent" I am.

Preacher
06-20-2009, 06:37 PM
Unfortunately, you can almost just look at the post counts and know who will discuss something like a grown up. and who is going to just start throwing around insults.

There are exception's though.

:huh:


OH... because they don't last long before they are :banned: ?

:chuckle:

Makes sense... but otherwise, postcount means nothing... except as a measure of how much of a life you don't have... and yeah, i am saying that with what... the 4th highest count or something like that? :laughing:

xfl2001fan
06-20-2009, 06:49 PM
Oh, so I can assume you will make him take that tag line out of every single post, correct? That tag line brings up politics; why should it be allowed to exist in this forum? Do you seek to operate with consistency? I hope so.

It's called a signature. Most of these boards offer you the choice of allowing you to see signatures/avatars...or hiding them (generally to aid with browser speed.) Turn yours off.

JEFF4i
06-20-2009, 06:51 PM
Oh, so I can assume you will make him take that tag line out of every single post, correct? That tag line brings up politics; why should it be allowed to exist in this forum? Do you seek to operate with consistency? I hope so.

Y'know, thumper, if nothing else, you really shouldn't talk to a lady that way.

HTG and I rarely agree, but a matter of respect should be afforded to anyone, especially a lady.

That said, I've nothing against Arians.

Preacher
06-20-2009, 07:12 PM
Y'know, thumper, if nothing else, you really shouldn't talk to a lady that way.

HTG and I rarely agree, but a matter of respect should be afforded to anyone, especially a lady.

That said, I've nothing against Arians.

Funny, I disagree with you, for the reason I am in agreement with you :toofunny:

It's not that She is a lady that he should be more respectful (HTG.. you definitely ARE a lady, and ladies SHOULD be respected, but so should your work here as a mod ) but that she is a mod on a forum, doing it of her own free will with no benefit and lots of frustration and headache (
______________________________________

General statement follows


Anyone and everyone should be appreciative of the time HTG and FS puts into the forums. Without them, this place would be ugly.

For the most part, they are dead on. They don't play favorites. Sure, they make mistakes, a swing and a miss here and there. They are human. But I challenge to you find better mods on a forum that the owner chooses to be as heavily moded as this one is. It is PURPOSELY moderated to be a PG 13 forum if memory serves me correctly from a long since dead thread.

So to ALL the posters... Show the mods some respect... LET THINGS GO... and just move on.

Cause if not IMO, and offseason history tends to back this up.. there are probably about to be a few :banned: coming. Again, IMO (and remembering previous offseasons). And the people here now, when the4y aren't on their high horse, actually are pretty good posters. It would be sad to lose them.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-20-2009, 07:35 PM
It's called making "straw man arguments." It's a sophomoric move and proves nothing whatsoever.

Since some have said "Waaa waaaa waaaaa look at all our excuses" as for why Pgh is the 4th worst rushing team (ypc most accurate # to look at) and that one of the excuses was "we were on our 4th string running back" let's look at the #s that our FIRST STRING running back put up.

Fast Willie Parker in 2008, 3.8 aypc and 71.9 per game avg.

He was the starting running back. He put up a crappy 3.8 yard per carry average. He wasn't out 4th string back. (Actually, Moore had a much better ypc, 4.2, so that shoots the excuse-giving argument to total hell.)

Anyone sitting there and saying "Our running game is fine; it was only because of our injuries and schedule that made us the 4th worst ypc team in the league" you are fully delusional. And those who think "It doesn't matter; we won the Super Bowl" you will be sadly mistaken to find out that a rushing attack that weak will never win the SB again.

The single back attack, rushing a small back up the middle on so many first and second downs, putting Ben at a huge disadvantage, simply will not provide the rushing production needed to win another ring. They had the perfect storm on conditions to win IN SPITE of such a horrid rushing attack. That perfect storm WILL NOT ever happen again. If they don't fix this problem (4th-WORST ypc in the league) they won't win another SB.

Can you imagine how good this team would be if they had a 4.5-5.0 ypc? Teams would be forced to play the safeties up and Ben could go to town.

By the way, A. Peterson has a 4.8 ypc, Brandon Jacobs had a 5.0 and DeAngelo Williams had a 5.5 ypc. If anyone in here thinks those teams don't have better O-lines and play calling, I don't know what to tell you. But have a nice fantasy trip. I thought this was an excellent and insightful post. Not surprisingly, it was followed by a number of attack-the-poster responses, so I will attempt to bring it back to football and add my $.02.

I think that for as good as the Steelers defense is, the offense should be close-to as good. Sure there are some personnel weaknesses, but when your defense is forcing a bunch of 3-and-outs and you have a HOF QB in his prime with weapons around him, it should be hard to have an offense that is as unproductive as the Steelers offense was in 08.

IMO, in order, the underachieving falls on...

1) Bruce Arians
2) Willie Parker
3) The OL

Arians playcalling is really at fault for much of the problem. For starters, the lack of variety is troubling. After the failed goal-line set of downs vs the Colts that cost the Steelers the game, the Colts admitted that the Steelers called the same play 6 times in a row.

But more than being unimaginative, it is Arians responsibility to get the most out of the talent he has. His biggest fault is his playcalling in the passing game, where he KNOWS that his OL is mediocre and yet calls nothing but seven-step-drops. That makes it easier for a defense to know how/where to rush the passer and harder on a less talented OL. Second, I believe his use of Willie Parker, which results in lots of 3rd and longs, put the offense in those bad passing downs (where Arians then calls a seven step drop). Where were the three-step drops? Screen passes? Bubble screens?

Second, it will be no surprise that I think that Willie Parkers reputation has far outweighed his production. As Thumper noted above, not only was the running game better when Moore started, but the entire offense was better. Whether or not you think Parker is better than Moore (and all of you do), the offense was better with Moore, even if it was simply the threat of a pass catcher out of the backfield, and so competely shutting that out of the gameplan down the stretch was a mistake.

(and I am not arguing here who should start or who is better. What I am saying is that at a bare minimum, Moore should have been in the gameplan.)

Third, the OL. They lacked the talent and cohesion to be great in run or pass blocking, but as I noted, I believe that poor playcalling and poor use of personnel made them look worse than the needed to be. No doubt that they were collectively a problem, but one made worse by other factors.

Curious to see how the OL improves, simply out of time playing together in the offense and how the RB situation plays out in terms of touches.

Riddle_Of_Steel
06-20-2009, 07:54 PM
Fast Willie Parker in 2008, 3.8 aypc and 71.9 per game avg.

You have to be fair and also throw in the fact that FWP was missing from at least several games this last year. That brings his YPC average down drastically.

He was the starting running back. He put up a crappy 3.8 yard per carry average. He wasn't out 4th string back. (Actually, Moore had a much better ypc, 4.2, so that shoots the excuse-giving argument to total hell.)

Opposing defenses do not stack the box with 7 or 8 guys to stop Mewelde Moore. With Parker out of the starting lineup for several weeks, we were seeing teams focusing on the the pass rush and playing mostly nickel and dime defenses. IN the few instances when the opposing team came out stacked to stop the run, Moorre was even less effective than Willie Parker. You can't celebrate Moore's 4.2 YPC average without citing that he only had to do that in a few games against defenses more concerned with stopping Big Ben & company. With FWP in the game, it makes the other team respect the run and defend against it.

Anyone sitting there and saying "Our running game is fine; it was only because of our injuries and schedule that made us the 4th worst ypc team in the league" you are fully delusional. And those who think "It doesn't matter; we won the Super Bowl" you will be sadly mistaken to find out that a rushing attack that weak will never win the SB again.

You are throwing blame but not looking at the facts. The Steelers played 7 of the top 10 defenses last year, and played the #2 defense 3 times. Agsint that kind of opposition, no offense would put up fantasy stats to make the stat geeks drool.

The single back attack, rushing a small back up the middle on so many first and second downs, putting Ben at a huge disadvantage, simply will not provide the rushing production needed to win another ring. They had the perfect storm on conditions to win IN SPITE of such a horrid rushing attack. That perfect storm WILL NOT ever happen again. If they don't fix this problem (4th-WORST ypc in the league) they won't win another SB.

The solutions to this problem have names: Frank Summers, Rashard Mendenhall, Kraig Urbik, and hopefully Shipley. Also, the fact we play the second easiest strength of schedule this year will make a big difference; it will allow some of these new parts to get accustomed to their new roles and expectations. other than that, yeah, I agree that the single-back experiement needs to come to an end-- it was a failure. Bring back the I formation or dual back set.

Can you imagine how good this team would be if they had a 4.5-5.0 ypc? Teams would be forced to play the safeties up and Ben could go to town.

We have had that in the past years and not won anything.

By the way, A. Peterson has a 4.8 ypc, Brandon Jacobs had a 5.0 and DeAngelo Williams had a 5.5 ypc. If anyone in here thinks those teams don't have better O-lines and play calling, I don't know what to tell you. But have a nice fantasy trip.

Let the record show though that noneof those backs played on teams that had to face a first-place schedule (which happened to be the hardest SoS the NFL has awarded since 1975).

fansince'76
06-20-2009, 07:56 PM
Fast Willie Parker in 2008, 3.8 aypc and 71.9 per game avg.

You have to be fair and also throw in the fact that FWP was missing from at least several games this last year. That brings his YPC average down drastically.

He was the starting running back. He put up a crappy 3.8 yard per carry average. He wasn't out 4th string back. (Actually, Moore had a much better ypc, 4.2, so that shoots the excuse-giving argument to total hell.)

Opposing defenses do not stack the box with 7 or 8 guys to stop Mewelde Moore. With Parker out of the starting lineup for several weeks, we were seeing teams focusing on the the pass rush and playing mostly nickel and dime defenses. IN the few instances when the opposing team came out stacked to stop the run, Moorre was even less effective than Willie Parker. You can't celebrate Moore's 4.2 YPC average without citing that he only had to do that in a few games against defenses more concerned with stopping Big Ben & company. With FWP in the game, it makes the other team respect the run and defend against it.

Anyone sitting there and saying "Our running game is fine; it was only because of our injuries and schedule that made us the 4th worst ypc team in the league" you are fully delusional. And those who think "It doesn't matter; we won the Super Bowl" you will be sadly mistaken to find out that a rushing attack that weak will never win the SB again.

You are throwing blame but not looking at the facts. The Steelers played 7 of the top 10 defenses last year, and played the #2 defense 3 times. Agsint that kind of opposition, no offense would put up fantasy stats to make the stat geeks drool.

The single back attack, rushing a small back up the middle on so many first and second downs, putting Ben at a huge disadvantage, simply will not provide the rushing production needed to win another ring. They had the perfect storm on conditions to win IN SPITE of such a horrid rushing attack. That perfect storm WILL NOT ever happen again. If they don't fix this problem (4th-WORST ypc in the league) they won't win another SB.

The solutions to this problem have names: Frank Summers, Rashard Mendenhall, Kraig Urbik, and hopefully Shipley. Also, the fact we play the second easiest strength of schedule this year will make a big difference; it will allow some of these new parts to get accustomed to their new roles and expectations. other than that, yeah, I agree that the single-back experiement needs to come to an end-- it was a failure. Bring back the I formation or dual back set.

Can you imagine how good this team would be if they had a 4.5-5.0 ypc? Teams would be forced to play the safeties up and Ben could go to town.

We have had that in the past years and not won anything.

By the way, A. Peterson has a 4.8 ypc, Brandon Jacobs had a 5.0 and DeAngelo Williams had a 5.5 ypc. If anyone in here thinks those teams don't have better O-lines and play calling, I don't know what to tell you. But have a nice fantasy trip.

Let the record show though that noneof those backs played on teams that had to face a first-place schedule (which happened to be the hardest SoS the NFL has awarded since 1975).

Bingo. Thank you. And welcome to the board! :drink:

Texasteel
06-20-2009, 08:31 PM
Thank you ROS, that was a very good post. Some people can't see that there are often reason for something and just start screaming " I don't want excuses".

I agree that with the time spent playing together, and the couple of additions, this should be a much better O-line, and a better running game. How ever I agree that this offense will not live on the running game anymore. It will live, or die on the arm of Big Ben.

slashsteel
06-20-2009, 08:51 PM
Willie sure seems to get his share of grief when it comes to fan evaluations.

Injuries unfortunately happen. Especially with a smallish back that had a boat load of carries .

To throw out yards per carry stats doesn't paint a accurate picture as was mentioned by a few posters.


When teams see a bigger threat they obviously are going to game plan to stop it.

As Moore is a better pass catcher, I think Ds would concentrate on the pass a little more so with him in the lineup.

Teams scout each other to identify strengths and weaknesses.

Thats where balance comes in.

Makes it harder to game plan than against a team thats one sided.

Steelers have done a admirable job in creating matchup problems.

I think it would be hard to argue against Parker being the more explosive back.

And if you are a coordinator why wouldn't you stack the box against Fast Willie?

If you have done your homework being a coach you know he can take it to the house with very little wiggle room.

Sure we can count on Big Ben to put our team up over the top.

But his job is so much easier IMO with a explosive back like FWP, to level the playing field.

If you stack we throw if you don't we run.

Throw in a stingy defense and blink and you could very well be climbing your way to a stairway to seven.......

LVSteelersfan
06-20-2009, 10:10 PM
I still cannot see why there are not a few plays that they have Willie AND Moore in the backfield at the same time. Game plan against that. You have the screen pass, running plays, fake runs, etc. Anything but that running Willie up the gut on first and second down for two or three total yards. That is the coach's fault. Period. Don't keep running those plays IF THEY DON'T WORK. And they don't.

Texasteel
06-20-2009, 10:40 PM
I still cannot see why there are not a few plays that they have Willie AND Moore in the backfield at the same time. Game plan against that. You have the screen pass, running plays, fake runs, etc. Anything but that running Willie up the gut on first and second down for two or three total yards. That is the coach's fault. Period. Don't keep running those plays IF THEY DON'T WORK. And they don't.

There is a lot of us that would like to see more of Moore, that was not intended, but with Mendy coming back I don't think that is likely this year. Unless someone gets hurt again.

wezx
06-21-2009, 10:54 AM
With all due respect to other peoples opinion in this thread, I'm not sure what is so drastically wrong with the offense. The goal of a team is to win games and then win championships...it's not to have the best stats. Obviously often they go hand in hand, but in the case of the Steelers offense last year they did what they needed to do when they needed to do it and the result was a championship. Obviously I, like all of you, want to see continued success, but I just don't see the benefit of taking Bruce Arians, or Willie Parker, or whatever and labeling THAT as the problem. It seems like a vast oversimplification to me. We all know that Pro Football is VERY complex and I really think these simplified "get rid of him and then we'll be better" kinds of ideas are counter-productive. Someone in an earlier post mentioned that there have been years when we have had an outstanding rushing game and we haven't won anything. If we had awesome stats all the way around and didn't win anything I fear the same people would be complaining about that! Personally, I trust the Rooney family and the management of this team, I trust Coach Tomlin, and I think they are obviously trying to do whatever wins us another championship...I mean for crying out loud we just won the Super Bowl with this group of players AND coaches...they can't suck that bad! Honestly, I see this same type of "fire this guy...HE'S the problem" line of thinking ALL the time from the Cleveland fans concerning the Browns. The Browns were 4-12...so some things need to change for them (not in my book LOL). We just won the Super Bowl for crying out loud, but reading this thread I would have thought we just lost in the first round against the Lions! Some of the posts in this thread if I took out the word "Steelers" or "Arians" and replaced it with the "Browns" appropriate word I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Are some people EVER happy???!!! But hey...what do I know?? :wink02:

wezx
06-21-2009, 11:04 AM
Some made mention earlier of Ben "bailing us out" in the Super Bowl or something to that effect...basically blaming the poor offense. A couple of thoughts I had on that.

1. We have a great defense...I am not demeaning their performance, but it wasn't the offenses' fault that the Cardinals made those 2 scores in the 4th. Especially the Fitzgerald long score!

2. I think the holding call in the endzone was questionable. When a defensive player runs over you you shouldn't get flagged for holding. Had that call not been made, we had a 1st down around the 21 yard line and could have possibly run out the clock.

3. The fact that we were able to make the game winning drive is a tribute to the WHOLE offense, not just Ben and Santonio. The whole offense did what it needed to do on that drive. I have the box set and have watched that drive several times...there were a lot of key blocks and well run patterns...a lot of TEAM play.

I guess I just can't understand all the "scapegoating" going on. We won, we would all like to see the team get even better, the coaches, players, & staff all want the same thing a heck of a lot more than we do, so I'm going to support them win or lose. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! :wink02:

X-Terminator
06-21-2009, 11:09 AM
With all due respect to other peoples opinion in this thread, I'm not sure what is so drastically wrong with the offense. The goal of a team is to win games and then win championships...it's not to have the best stats. Obviously often they go hand in hand, but in the case of the Steelers offense last year they did what they needed to do when they needed to do it and the result was a championship. Obviously I, like all of you, want to see continued success, but I just don't see the benefit of taking Bruce Arians, or Willie Parker, or whatever and labeling THAT as the problem. It seems like a vast oversimplification to me. We all know that Pro Football is VERY complex and I really think these simplified "get rid of him and then we'll be better" kinds of ideas are counter-productive. Someone in an earlier post mentioned that there have been years when we have had an outstanding rushing game and we haven't won anything. If we had awesome stats all the way around and didn't win anything I fear the same people would be complaining about that! Personally, I trust the Rooney family and the management of this team, I trust Coach Tomlin, and I think they are obviously trying to do whatever wins us another championship...I mean for crying out loud we just won the Super Bowl with this group of players AND coaches...they can't suck that bad! Honestly, I see this same type of "fire this guy...HE'S the problem" line of thinking ALL the time from the Cleveland fans concerning the Browns. The Browns were 4-12...so some things need to change for them (not in my book LOL). We just won the Super Bowl for crying out loud, but reading this thread I would have thought we just lost in the first round against the Lions! Some of the posts in this thread if I took out the word "Steelers" or "Arians" and replaced it with the "Browns" appropriate word I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Are some people EVER happy???!!! But hey...what do I know?? :wink02:

Sorry, but that attitude is not allowed on this board. It must be all negative, all the time. That Super Bowl thing...doesn't exist anymore. We were 4-12 and lost to the Browns twice last year, in their eyes. Didn't you get the memo when you first joined?

Dino 6 Rings
06-21-2009, 11:11 AM
in case you missed it, I didn't call anyone names - the supposed "superior" football minds in here did. And then complained that __others__ were making ad hominem attacks. Kind of strange. I find zealots bizarre. They can't admit when their team has flaws. It's bizarre. Putting up ypc #s that are the 4th worst in the league is hard to defend. But some how zealots still will try. The whole thing is very odd.

You use arrogance and condesending terms that are uncalled for.

As for Zealots, I'm one. Guess what, I don't apologize for it either.

I pointed out our needs, I also during the season had my issues with Arians. But in the long term success for this team, I see keeping the entire coaching staff entact for a 2nd straight season as a positive, not a negative.

I hope we will be a better rushing team. Every indication of draft picks, signings, and basic knowledge that all our backs are going to be 100% healthy in this season points to a better rushing team.

So there is nothing else that needs to be talked about really. We hope for a more effective rushing attack this year and a nice balanced passing game. Also we hope for a better return game and an equal if not better coverage game.

wezx
06-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Sorry, what WAS I thinking?????!!!!! :laughing:

X-Terminator
06-21-2009, 11:18 AM
Ummm, I understand that if you want to bleed the clock it sure helps if you can gain some first downs in the process. A 2.8 ypc isn't getting it done, regardless of the strategy. Pre-Arians Steelers teams COULD rush the ball, and get first down in the process to procure a win. Arians system/O-line stinks to bad, that it can't do it. We saw the perfect example in the Super Bowl and had to have Ben save our ass once again. A Belichick team would have never lost that lead, because BB remains unpredictable and keeps making first downs and keeps scoring.

Yeah, he sure was able to keep scoring and making first downs against the Colts in the 06 AFCC. Or how about that stunning comeback against the Giants in SB XLII?

Yeah he's a great one, that Belichick. :jerkit:

Preacher
06-21-2009, 11:18 AM
Sorry, what WAS I thinking?????!!!!! :laughing:

Now you're getting the picture! :wink02:

wezx
06-21-2009, 11:20 AM
In regard to being (I guess?) labeled as a zealot I will say this:

I sometimes wonder why people root for a team? Is is because of what THEY get out of it? Makes them feel important perhaps, makes them feel good? We probably all enjoy that. I root for the Steelers because I truly love the Steelers. I am always looking for ways to support the team more, to root for the team more, to make the Steelers look good by not being an unsportsmanlike, arrogant fan, to make sure that I always cheer and NEVER boo our team when I'm at a game. Yes I gain satisfaction and enjoyment out of it, but I have been the same fan of the Steelers when they have had bad seasons...nothing changes for me. They are my team and I will support them win or lose.

"Ask NOT what the Pittsburgh Steelers can do for YOU, ask what YOU can do for the Pittsburgh Steelers!" :tt:

mmalone
06-21-2009, 11:23 AM
I think that for as good as the Steelers defense is, the offense should be close-to as good. Sure there are some personnel weaknesses, but when your defense is forcing a bunch of 3-and-outs and you have a HOF QB in his prime with weapons around him, it should be hard to have an offense that is as unproductive as the Steelers offense was in 08.

IMO, in order, the underachieving falls on...

1) Bruce Arians
2) Willie Parker
3) The OL

Arians playcalling is really at fault for much of the problem. For starters, the lack of variety is troubling. After the failed goal-line set of downs vs the Colts that cost the Steelers the game, the Colts admitted that the Steelers called the same play 6 times in a row.

But more than being unimaginative, it is Arians responsibility to get the most out of the talent he has. His biggest fault is his playcalling in the passing game, where he KNOWS that his OL is mediocre and yet calls nothing but seven-step-drops. That makes it easier for a defense to know how/where to rush the passer and harder on a less talented OL. Second, I believe his use of Willie Parker, which results in lots of 3rd and longs, put the offense in those bad passing downs (where Arians then calls a seven step drop). Where were the three-step drops? Screen passes? Bubble screens?.

UFN, you took time to write this and like thumper you are right on the money..

ben gets hit 196 times last year. the day he gets broke we will feel the wrath of losing.

we are ranked 22nd offense.. half this board doesnt get it.

the offense jams itself in 3rd and longs...

we have no short yardage fb, we kick way to many short field goals.

the OC has no deception in the play calling

our running backs get hurt obviously running up the middle with no blocking because the defense knows were running. watch the game.. they got hurt.
willie is not at fault and mendy felt the play they both got hurt.

we have 1 or 2 counter blitz plays every game. by default probably. so ben has no outlet.

ben waits for arians plays to unfold as all the WR's are going 15-20 yards down field.
no short slants or outlets, then then OL folds and Ben gets hit or flushes like a grouse.

watch Brady with the pats, they short you to death and no one stops them. for 4 quarters.. it is almost laughable. brady never gets hit because his pass plays are like 3 - 6 yards and the WR or TE makes more from it. whats that?

then we sit here and say we won a super bowl, willie was hurt, blame the OL

our offense is awesome..... it is. we have talent galore.

it is Arians.... he is not a big talent. our offensive talent is making him look like he is good.

who planted him on us anyway, the Browns...

wezx
06-21-2009, 11:24 AM
Thanks for bringing up the Patriots/Giants Super Bowl. I had gone to sleep at halftime because I couldn't bear to watch the Cheatriots win...when I woke up later I was completely overjoyed to find that the Giants had won! I felt like WE had won...it was great! I've watched that game winning drive over and over and over...never get tired of that...thanks Giants! :thumbsup:

wezx
06-21-2009, 11:30 AM
I believe it's been reliably stated that Ben likes Bruce Arians and wants him to stay. Do we all know more than Ben? Is Ben that stupid to stick with a guy who has "no talent"?

Dino 6 Rings
06-21-2009, 11:35 AM
You're not getting it, at all. I am fine with not rushing the ball as the #1 rushing team (or top 5) in the league. I am keenly aware that in all those Cowher years when we had top rushing attacks and Ds, we didn't win jack shit. I am fully aware having a franchise QB makes all the difference.

THAT BEING SAID, we need either to throw more on 1st and 2nd down OR get better OL play so we don't need MIRACLES to win rings. Knowing our rush sucks, why keep trying it most 1st and 2nd downs? Why not throw more of first and second? You saw what running FWP up the gut did in the Super Bowl: It damn near costs us the game.

If they are going to stick to rushing so much on 1st and 2nd, then they better improve the OL play so it's more successful. If not, then stop wasting so many downs. Mix it up more. The run and shoot put up huge ypc #s, not because that was a good rushing O but because you never knew when it was coming. With this Pgh team, you can cheat knowing they will usually rush 1st and 2nd down, especially if they think they have a lead.

Wake up Arians: Being predictable is NOT a good thing.

Ok, I'm going to do this one more time.

Super Bowl:
1st down Run 2 yards
2nd down PASS 38 yards
1st down Run 9 yards
2nd down Run 1 yard
1st down PASS 21 yards
1st and goal, Russell Run, -4 Yards
2nd and goal, from the 5, parker gains 4 yards
3rd and goal, Pass Play, Ben Scramble, TD Over Turn by Replay.
4th Down Field Goal

next drive
1st down, SHOTGUN PASS. 25 yards
1st down, PASS Incomplete
2nd and 10, Pass 5 yards
3rd and 5, Penalty, false start 3rd 10, Pass to miller 11 yards
1st down, Rush, 0 yards
2nd down, Pass 11 yards
1st down Run 8 Yards
2nd and 2, PASS 7 yards
1st down Run 2 yards
2nd down Pass 4 yards
3rd down at the 1, Run Russell TD.

Next Drive
1st down PASS 6 yards
2nd down Rush 8 yards
1st down Pass, INCOMPLETE
2nd down 10, pass to Parker - 2 yards
3rd down 12, Pass, 22 yards. HOLDING 10 yard penalty no play.
3rd down 22, offsides, 5 yards
3rd down 16, Pass to Moore, 4 yards.
4th down PUNT.

Next Drive
1st down, 2 minutes to play, Moore Rush, 6 yards
2nd and 4, PASS, INTERCEPTION!!!!

Defensive TD By us, Halftime.

first drive, 2nd half.
1st down Parker Rush - 3 yards
2nd down 13, PASS 6 Yards
Penalty, Face Mask Defense.
1st down PASS 6 yards
2nd down Parker Rush 3 yards
3rd and 1, PASS 5 Yards
1st and 10, PASS, Incomplete
Penalty, Roughing Passer
1st and 10, RUSH, - 1 Yard Parker
2nd and 11, PASS 15 yards
1st down RUSH Parker 1 yard
2nd down RUSH Parker 15 yards
1st down at the 5, RUSH - 4 yards Parker
2nd down at the 9, PASS INCOMPLETE
3rd down PASS (Washington) INCOMPLETE
4th FG
PENALTY, 1st down
1st down at the 4, RUSH Parker 2 yards
2nd down at the 2, PASS Incomplete
3rd down at the 2, Shotgun (Draw) -1 yard
4th FG

Now, when exactly do you want them to pass more on 1st and 2nd down?

What I see above is BALANCE.

Dino 6 Rings
06-21-2009, 11:40 AM
Next Drive:
4th Qrt

1st and 10, PASS Incomplete
5 yard penalty for holding on defense
1st and 10 Rush, 6 Yards
2nd and 4, Rush, -4 yards
3rd and 8 Pass, SACK
4th and 20, PUNT

next drive
1st down Rush, Parker 4 yards
2nd down, PASS, SACK
3rd and 16, Shotgun Pass 10 yards
4th down PUNT

Next drive, 1st and 10 from our 1 yard line
1st Down, PASS Incomplete
2nd down, Rush, no gain Parker
3rd down PASS, 19 Yard,
HOLDING OFFENSE SAFETY.

Last Drive, Hurry up Offense.
All Passes, Touchdown to win Super Bowl.

mmalone
06-21-2009, 11:40 AM
Ok, I'm going to do this one more time.

Super Bowl:
1st down Run 2 yards
2nd down PASS 38 yards
1st down Run 9 yards
2nd down Run 1 yard
1st down PASS 21 yards
1st and goal, Russell Run, -4 Yards
2nd and goal, from the 5, parker gains 4 yards
3rd and goal, Pass Play, Ben Scramble, TD Over Turn by Replay.
4th Down Field Goal

next drive
1st down, SHOTGUN PASS. 25 yards
1st down, PASS Incomplete
2nd and 10, Pass 5 yards
3rd and 5, Penalty, false start 3rd 10, Pass to miller 11 yards
1st down, Rush, 0 yards
2nd down, Pass 11 yards
1st down Run 8 Yards
2nd and 2, PASS 7 yards
1st down Run 2 yards
2nd down Pass 4 yards
3rd down at the 1, Run Russell TD.

Next Drive
1st down PASS 6 yards
2nd down Rush 8 yards
1st down Pass, INCOMPLETE
2nd down 10, pass to Parker - 2 yards
3rd down 12, Pass, 22 yards. HOLDING 10 yard penalty no play.
3rd down 22, offsides, 5 yards
3rd down 16, Pass to Moore, 4 yards.
4th down PUNT.

Next Drive
1st down, 2 minutes to play, Moore Rush, 6 yards
2nd and 4, PASS, INTERCEPTION!!!!

Defensive TD By us, Halftime.

first drive, 2nd half.
1st down Parker Rush - 3 yards
2nd down 13, PASS 6 Yards
Penalty, Face Mask Defense.
1st down PASS 6 yards
2nd down Parker Rush 3 yards
3rd and 1, PASS 5 Yards
1st and 10, PASS, Incomplete
Penalty, Roughing Passer
1st and 10, RUSH, - 1 Yard Parker
2nd and 11, PASS 15 yards
1st down RUSH Parker 1 yard
2nd down RUSH Parker 15 yards
1st down at the 5, RUSH - 4 yards Parker
2nd down at the 9, PASS INCOMPLETE
3rd down PASS (Washington) INCOMPLETE
4th FG
PENALTY, 1st down
1st down at the 4, RUSH Parker 2 yards
2nd down at the 2, PASS Incomplete
3rd down at the 2, Shotgun (Draw) -1 yard
4th FG

Now, when exactly do you want them to pass more on 1st and 2nd down?

What I see above is BALANCE.

Great call. But the first half of the super bowl was awesome steeler football....
The offense was on fire..... they played with deception. I looked at my boys and said this is how we should always fire away... they had counter blitz plays short slants.
it was beautiful.

please show us the third quarter??

Dino 6 Rings
06-21-2009, 11:42 AM
The problem I see, is that Some of us want Arians to call a run play, when he calls a pass play, and some of us want him to call a pass play, when he calls a run.

Dino 6 Rings
06-21-2009, 11:44 AM
You can pretty much do that with every single Steelers game last season, break it down by each drive, Play Call by Play Call and what you'll see, to your surprise (cause it was to me when I was Killing Arians the first part of the year) is that we have a Very Balanced Attack and very Balanced Play Calling.

mmalone
06-21-2009, 11:49 AM
we can do this all day..

its arians........ our offense is awesome, we make arians look good.

sorry. i just cant stand these series of plays...

and i can post these all day long...

heres a sample from one game...

and not even all of them..


Pittsburgh Steelers at 9:23, (1st play from scrimmage 9:16) PIT PHI
1st and 10 at PIT 33 (9:16) B.Roethlisberger sacked at PIT 31 for -2 yards (J.Parker).
2nd and 12 at PIT 31 (8:36) W.Parker right tackle to PIT 39 for 8 yards (B.Dawkins).
3rd and 4 at PIT 39 (7:49) (Shotgun) PENALTY on PHI-M.Patterson, Defensive Delay of Game, 5 yards, enforced at PIT 39 - No Play.
1st and 10 at PIT 44 (7:25) B.Roethlisberger sacked at PIT 44 for 0 yards (B.Bunkley).
2nd and 10 at PIT 44 (6:47) B.Roethlisberger pass short right to N.Washington to PHI 49 for 7 yards (A.Samuel, B.Dawkins).
3rd and 3 at PHI 49 (6:00) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger sacked at PIT 45 for -6 yards (J.Parker). FUMBLES (J.Parker) [J.Parker], RECOVERED by PHI-B.Bunkley at PIT 45. B.Bunkley to PIT 45 for no gain (H.Miller).


1st and 10 at PIT 24 (2:30) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger sacked at PIT 18 for -6 yards (sack split by O.Gaither and J.Parker).
2nd and 16 at PIT 18 (2:04) (No Huddle, Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger sacked at PIT 14 for -4 yards (T.Cole).
PENALTY on PHI-T.Cole, Face Mask (15 Yards), 15 yards, enforced at PIT 14.
Penalty on PHI-D.Howard, Defensive Offside, declined.
Two-Minute Warning
1st and 10 at PIT 29 (1:59) (Shotgun) PENALTY on PIT-W.Colon, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at PIT 29 - No Play.
1st and 15 at PIT 24 (1:59) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass deep right intended for N.Washington INTERCEPTED by A.Samuel at PHI 23.
A.Samuel to PHI 23 for no gain (N.Washington).


1st and 10 at PHI 49 (13:10) W.Parker left end to PHI 48 for 1 yard (O.Gaither).
2nd and 9 at PHI 48 (12:31) W.Parker right end to PHI 49 for -1 yards (S.Bradley).
3rd and 10 at PHI 49 (11:47) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger scrambles up the middle to PHI 48 for 1 yard (T.Cole).
4th and 9 at PHI 48 (11:14) M.Berger punts 33 yards to PHI 15, Center-G.Warren, fair catch by D.Jackson.

mmalone
06-21-2009, 11:57 AM
The problem I see, is that Some of us want Arians to call a run play, when he calls a pass play, and some of us want him to call a pass play, when he calls a run.



no, we want plays that counter the defense..... deception and quick play action to keep ben on his feet.

thats all.

they do it but not real often.

most of the plays.. a pop warner coach knows whats coming.
thats the problem...

mmalone
06-21-2009, 12:07 PM
heres a classic..... arians special

burn um for 48 yards, then run willie up the middle twice... then kick a field goal.

you have the defense on there heels... and you play this series.... we beat cleve. 10-6 wow what a slaughter...

Pittsburgh Steelers at 10:16 PIT CLE
1st and 10 at PIT 16 (10:16) B.Roethlisberger pass deep left to S.Holmes to CLV 36 for 48 yards (M.Adams).
1st and 10 at CLV 36 (9:29) W.Parker right guard to CLV 33 for 3 yards (S.Smith, K.Wimbley).
2nd and 7 at CLV 33 (8:53) W.Parker right tackle to CLV 30 for 3 yards (C.Williams).
3rd and 4 at CLV 30 (8:11) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete short left to S.Holmes (E.Wright) [S.Rogers].
4th and 4 at CLV 30 (8:02) Je.Reed 48 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Warren, Holder-M.Berger. 10 0
Je.Reed kicks 70 yards from PIT 30 to CLV 0. J.Cribbs, Touchback.

Preacher
06-21-2009, 12:09 PM
http://transitionland.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/facepalm.jpg



I just LOVE the arrogance in this thread. . . Guess Arians just "fell" into his job right?

The Duke
06-21-2009, 12:38 PM
I believe it's been reliably stated that Ben likes Bruce Arians and wants him to stay. Do we all know more than Ben? Is Ben that stupid to stick with a guy who has "no talent"?

THANK YOU!! that's all I need. and the rooney's approval


it is Arians.... he is not a big talent. our offensive talent is making him look like he is good.

oh, so because you say it must be true. ok, I believe you :rolleyes:

heres a classic..... arians special

burn um for 48 yards, then run willie up the middle twice... then kick a field goal.

you have the defense on there heels... and you play this series.... we beat cleve. 10-6 wow what a slaughter...

.

dammit, how could we lose that game????

oh wait, we didn't!! the weather was horrible that night. that bomb to santo was very risky itself. Starting to pass all day would just be asking for turnovers in that weather. Arians, AND Ben (who could change the play if he thinks he needs to) know that

because of that, Arians and ben are smarter than you




I just LOVE the arrogance in this thread. . . Guess Arians just "fell" into his job right?


didn't you hear? the browns PLANTED him on us? :dang:

so I guess we can thank the brownies for # 6 :thumbsup:

mmalone
06-21-2009, 12:59 PM
I guess in a nutshell we should strive for this stat on offense and with our number 1 d we would be a killing machine.

The average score of a Saints game in 2008 was Saints 28.9

Always work for the top, and no excuses.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-21-2009, 01:30 PM
Willie sure seems to get his share of grief when it comes to fan evaluations.

Injuries unfortunately happen. Especially with a smallish back that had a boat load of carries .

To throw out yards per carry stats doesn't paint a accurate picture as was mentioned by a few posters.


When teams see a bigger threat they obviously are going to game plan to stop it.

As Moore is a better pass catcher, I think Ds would concentrate on the pass a little more so with him in the lineup.

Teams scout each other to identify strengths and weaknesses.

Thats where balance comes in.

Makes it harder to game plan than against a team thats one sided.

Steelers have done a admirable job in creating matchup problems.

I think it would be hard to argue against Parker being the more explosive back.

And if you are a coordinator why wouldn't you stack the box against Fast Willie?

If you have done your homework being a coach you know he can take it to the house with very little wiggle room.

Sure we can count on Big Ben to put our team up over the top.

But his job is so much easier IMO with a explosive back like FWP, to level the playing field.

If you stack we throw if you don't we run.

Throw in a stingy defense and blink and you could very well be climbing your way to a stairway to seven....... Actually you are making the case that Willie Parker is part of the problem.

As you noted, being able to run AND catch is harder to match up with and is exactly why the offense was much more potent with Moore in the lineup (FYI, that is a fact). The idea that FWP is explosive is, at this point, a myth since he has not had a long run since 2006.

MACH1
06-21-2009, 01:46 PM
:yawn::yawn:

X-Terminator
06-21-2009, 02:15 PM
I guess in a nutshell we should strive for this stat on offense and with our number 1 d we would be a killing machine.

The average score of a Saints game in 2008 was Saints 28.9

Always work for the top, and no excuses.

Right.

And what exactly did the Saints do again? Oh yeah, they didn't make the playoffs. And why? Because they couldn't play defense...which meant that the offense had no choice but to put up almost 30 points per game in order to have a chance to win. Funny how that goes hand-in-hand.

Look dude, everyone wants a better offense. But to completely ignore other factors and pin it all on one man as you and the rest of the Arians bashers do is not only completely unfair, but incredibly short-sighted. It's like I always say about Steelers fans - when something goes wrong, it's blame the coach or blame the QB. There can be no other factors involved.

X-Terminator
06-21-2009, 02:22 PM
Great call. But the first half of the super bowl was awesome steeler football....
The offense was on fire..... they played with deception. I looked at my boys and said this is how we should always fire away... they had counter blitz plays short slants.
it was beautiful.

please show us the third quarter??

first drive, 2nd half.
1st down Parker Rush - 3 yards
2nd down 13, PASS 6 Yards
Penalty, Face Mask Defense.
1st down PASS 6 yards
2nd down Parker Rush 3 yards
3rd and 1, PASS 5 Yards
1st and 10, PASS, Incomplete
Penalty, Roughing Passer
1st and 10, RUSH, - 1 Yard Parker
2nd and 11, PASS 15 yards
1st down RUSH Parker 1 yard
2nd down RUSH Parker 15 yards
1st down at the 5, RUSH - 4 yards Parker
2nd down at the 9, PASS INCOMPLETE
3rd down PASS (Washington) INCOMPLETE
4th FG
PENALTY, 1st down
1st down at the 4, RUSH Parker 2 yards
2nd down at the 2, PASS Incomplete
3rd down at the 2, Shotgun (Draw) -1 yard
4th FG

I think "first drive, 2nd half" implies that it was the THIRD QUARTER.

Dino 6 Rings
06-21-2009, 02:51 PM
Actually you are making the case that Willie Parker is part of the problem.

As you noted, being able to run AND catch is harder to match up with and is exactly why the offense was much more potent with Moore in the lineup (FYI, that is a fact). The idea that FWP is explosive is, at this point, a myth since he has not had a long run since 2006.

Right because he was only leading the league in rushing up until the St Louis game. Oh and as for "much more explosive" that is a Myth in your "moore fan because we went to the same school" little mind. I've disproved your stats time and time again, as have others by pointing out the games, the weather, the win loss record with Willie as the Starter, and the actual Game Play and defenses we faced in each of the "great games" that you constantly point out from one single year of Moore's Career Back up time in the NFL.

are the Redskins so pathetic that you have nothing better to do than come on the board of the Super Bowl champs and pick on their Starting Running back? I mean really, you were proven wrong by our Super Bowl Victory, and you can try all the "in spite of" crap you want, fact as the starter, Parker helps us win.

mmalone
06-21-2009, 03:17 PM
Right.

And what exactly did the Saints do again? Oh yeah, they didn't make the playoffs. And why? Because they couldn't play defense...which meant that the offense had no choice but to put up almost 30 points per game in order to have a chance to win. Funny how that goes hand-in-hand.

Look dude, everyone wants a better offense. But to completely ignore other factors and pin it all on one man as you and the rest of the Arians bashers do is not only completely unfair, but incredibly short-sighted. It's like I always say about Steelers fans - when something goes wrong, it's blame the coach or blame the QB. There can be no other factors involved.

dude, it is to work at being the number offense. match that with a number 1 defense.
we are 16-0 .......

i dont see what is wrong with trying to be #1 on offense...

mmalone
06-21-2009, 03:27 PM
Right.

And what exactly did the Saints do again? Oh yeah, they didn't make the playoffs. And why? Because they couldn't play defense...which meant that the offense had no choice but to put up almost 30 points per game in order to have a chance to win. Funny how that goes hand-in-hand.

Look dude, everyone wants a better offense. But to completely ignore other factors and pin it all on one man as you and the rest of the Arians bashers do is not only completely unfair, but incredibly short-sighted. It's like I always say about Steelers fans - when something goes wrong, it's blame the coach or blame the QB. There can be no other factors involved.

I just feel our offense makes arians look good. we have great talent and our offense is carrying him.

Texasteel
06-21-2009, 03:55 PM
This thread seems to be just going in circles. No one is going to change anyones mind right now. We have basically two position. The ones that see reasons for last years low YPC, and see reason for an improvement, and those that lock in on the YPC, see not reason for improvement, and want some one fired. I don't think anyone will know for sure which position is right, for a few months yet. Till then this is all speculation, like most everything else here.

Personally I see good reason for an improvement as I and others have stated.
One thing I do know, player injures are a reason, not just an excuse.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-21-2009, 03:58 PM
Right because he was only leading the league in rushing up until the St Louis game. Oh and as for "much more explosive" that is a Myth in your "moore fan because we went to the same school" little mind. I've disproved your stats time and time again, as have others by pointing out the games, the weather, the win loss record with Willie as the Starter, and the actual Game Play and defenses we faced in each of the "great games" that you constantly point out from one single year of Moore's Career Back up time in the NFL.

are the Redskins so pathetic that you have nothing better to do than come on the board of the Super Bowl champs and pick on their Starting Running back? I mean really, you were proven wrong by our Super Bowl Victory, and you can try all the "in spite of" crap you want, fact as the starter, Parker helps us win. Excellent. Right back to attack-the-poster

We are talking about 2008, so that Willie Parker was leading the league in rushing the year before is irrelevant. Age matters to a RB. Otherwise, Marshall Faulk and Shaun Alexander would still be the top RBs in the NFL.

As for more explosive, I said nothing about Moore, only that Willie Parker has not made an *explosive* play in going-on 2 seasons. Again, not bashing anyone, but dealing with the facts. (And if you want to compare big plays last season Parker vs Moore---go ahead)

And you have not dis proven one stat. If you have, please name it here and I will acknowledge it immediately.

The Duke
06-21-2009, 04:57 PM
This thread seems to be just going in circles. No one is going to change anyones mind right now. We have basically two position. The ones that see reasons for last years low YPC, and see reason for an improvement, and those that lock in on the YPC, see not reason for improvement, and want some one fired. I don't think anyone will know for sure which position is right, for a few months yet. Till then this is all speculation, like most everything else here.

Personally I see good reason for an improvement as I and others have stated.
One thing I do know, player injures are a reason, not just an excuse.

dammit tex, stop being so....rational :chuckle:

HometownGal
06-21-2009, 04:58 PM
dude, it is to work at being the number offense. match that with a number 1 defense.
we are 16-0 .......

i dont see what is wrong with trying to be #1 on offense...

So - let me see here - if the Steelers don't go 16-0 and our offense isn't on top of the rankings, but we win another Super Bowl, that's a bad thing? :banging:

Who the hell cares about rankings and stats? :shake02:

X-Terminator
06-21-2009, 05:14 PM
dude, it is to work at being the number offense. match that with a number 1 defense.
we are 16-0 .......

i dont see what is wrong with trying to be #1 on offense...

Since the Pats* are being used by others as examples, they set records on offense in 2007. Had their undefeated season. Ended up not meaning jack shit in the end, as they had to watch the Giants hoist the Lombardi Trophy.

No, the number one thing should be WINNING CHAMPIONSHIPS, no matter how it gets done. And that's the bottom line.

Do you want your team to keep winning titles, or do you just want to thump your chest about being the #1 offense?

thumper
06-21-2009, 05:22 PM
Great call. But the first half of the super bowl was awesome steeler football....
The offense was on fire..... they played with deception. I looked at my boys and said this is how we should always fire away... they had counter blitz plays short slants.
it was beautiful.

please show us the third quarter??

Right. Why does he keep just posting the span where they DID play call like I think they always should: NOT be predictable? In the 2nd half, I saw them waste down after down with FWP up the middle with no success.

thumper
06-21-2009, 05:26 PM
The problem I see, is that Some of us want Arians to call a run play, when he calls a pass play, and some of us want him to call a pass play, when he calls a run.

I have never micro-critiqued Arian. All I know, is wasting downs with runs up the middle on 1st and 2nd is obvious. Most of the games we won, and those we lost, had spans where the offense was doing NOTHING until Ben had the hand cuffs taken off. Remember the 1st half of the first Ravens game? Where Ben got pissed and was sick of being booed, knowing the O deserved it?

I never said every play call my Arians is bad. All I said is between his oft-poor play calling and an OL that can't open up holes, it's why Pgh is 4th worst rushing team in the league - as ypc is the most comprehensive staff to evaluate the rushing performance.

thumper
06-21-2009, 05:27 PM
no, we want plays that counter the defense..... deception and quick play action to keep ben on his feet.

thats all.

they do it but not real often.

most of the plays.. a pop warner coach knows whats coming.
thats the problem...

:hatsoff::chuckle::chuckle:

thumper
06-21-2009, 05:30 PM
http://transitionland.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/facepalm.jpg



I just LOVE the arrogance in this thread. . . Guess Arians just "fell" into his job right?


Just because you have a job as OC doesn't mean you are that great at it. Remember Joe Walton. He had the OC job in Pgh. I guess that means he was awesome, right? Using your logic, he must have been a :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:fantastic OC.

fansince'76
06-21-2009, 05:33 PM
Do you want your team to keep winning titles, or do you just want to thump your chest about being the #1 offense?

Hey, our "O" was ranked all the way up at #7 in 2006! Woohoo, what a season! I loved being out of the playoff hunt for all intents and purposes by Halloween that year! It was awesome! :tt03: :jammin: :tt03:

X-Terminator
06-21-2009, 05:35 PM
Just because you have a job as OC doesn't mean you are that great at it. Remember Joe Walton. He had the OC job in Pgh. I guess that means he was awesome, right? Using your logic, he must have been a :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:fantastic OC.

Bruce Arians is 10x better than Joe Walton was at any point during his tenure, and that cannot be denied.

Arians is not the best OC in the league. He's not the worst either. He sure as HELL does not deserve the fickle finger of blame being pointed at him AND ONLY HIM for the offense's struggles last season.

Texasteel
06-21-2009, 05:58 PM
dammit tex, stop being so....rational :chuckle:

Sorry, I get these dizzy spells from time to time.

Texasteel
06-21-2009, 06:19 PM
I have never micro-critiqued Arian. All I know, is wasting downs with runs up the middle on 1st and 2nd is obvious. Most of the games we won, and those we lost, had spans where the offense was doing NOTHING until Ben had the hand cuffs taken off. Remember the 1st half of the first Ravens game? Where Ben got pissed and was sick of being booed, knowing the O deserved it?

I never said every play call my Arians is bad. All I said is between his oft-poor play calling and an OL that can't open up holes, it's why Pgh is 4th worst rushing team in the league - as ypc is the most comprehensive staff to evaluate the rushing performance.

What are you suggesting then. Firing Arian 3 months before the season starts, or dismantling the offensive line?

wezx
06-21-2009, 06:29 PM
So - let me see here - if the Steelers don't go 16-0 and our offense isn't on top of the rankings, but we win another Super Bowl, that's a bad thing? :banging:

Who the hell cares about rankings and stats? :shake02:

Bravo...

I find it comical that comments are made concerning "Pop Warner Coachs" and such being able to "see our play calling coming".

1. OBVIOUSLY it's too bad that the Cardinals weren't up to that "Pop Warner" level because then they would have EASILY defeated us. I guess the Ravens and Chargers weren't up to that level either...man the NFL is getting soft isn't it?

2. Coach Tomlin, the Rooney family, Ben, etc. must be real morons to not see what is so OBVIOUS to all of the astute football minds in this thread who have so EASILY ascertained our problem as being Bruce Arians! I'm thinking that the Steelers will be calling some folks on this board first thing tomorrow morning with job offers!

3. Sorry for the sarcasm, but in all fairness, do any of those bashing Arians have jobs in the NFL? I'm not kidding, I'm serious! I find it perplexing how folks with NO NFL coaching or playing experience are so quick to second guess OUR SUPER BOWL CHAMPION COACHES AND FRONT OFFICE! To quote Will Ferrell: "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!"

wezx
06-21-2009, 06:38 PM
Folks, I have a theory: There are 2 types of fans.

Situation: 4th and goal on 1 yard line. (Team has been very successful with said coach)

FAN#1: Wants the team to GO FOR IT!

If the team goes for it and makes it...the coach is a genius!
If the team goes for it and misses it....that SAME coach is a moron and should be fired!
If the team kicks a field goal...that SAME coach is a moron and should be fired!


FAN#2: Wants the team to GO FOR IT!

If the team goes for it and makes it...very happy that the call worked out
If the team goes for it and misses it....disappointed and realizes that in the NFL you have to make tough calls and they don't always work out.
If the team kicks a field goal...glad we got points and thinks the coach thought that was the best course of action.

wezx
06-21-2009, 06:51 PM
I believe in our team and I believe in the Rooney family. They have proven themselves over many years to be smart in their decision making, and more importantly, they have real Character (with a capital "C"). Obviously they have not been perfect, but they have done a tremendous job and done it with a lot of dignity. In my book, bashing ANY of our coaches is a direct afront to our ownership. You're basically saying "We're smarter than the Steelers ownership. Can't they see that (insert name) SUCKS and should be fired??!!"

When Tomlin was hired I heard all kinds of "talk" from people on what idiots the Rooneys were to not hire Russ Grimm or Ken Whisenhunt...now those SAME people are talking about what a genius Tomlin is and how the Rooneys' were so brilliant and shrewd to pick him and how they knew it ALL THE TIME...GOOD GRIEF!

If someone is so unhappy with our team's judgment, especially after our 6th Super Bowl win, perhaps they should find another team with such exceptional people in control of said team OR get a job in the NFL where their football expertise can be put to use......good luck with that.

wezx
06-21-2009, 06:57 PM
So - let me see here - if the Steelers don't go 16-0 and our offense isn't on top of the rankings, but we win another Super Bowl, that's a bad thing? :banging:

Who the hell cares about rankings and stats? :shake02:

Does anyone here HONESTLY expect any of the rest of us to believe that the Cheatriots really cared about their amazing stats and #1 rankings in every category when they LOST to the Giants...I mean COME ON! :banging:

wezx
06-21-2009, 07:02 PM
OFF THE SUBJECT

...and you saw what an arrogant, unsportsmanlike ass Belicheat was as he stormed off the field and made his defense play that last play with him in the locker room...what a JERK! He showed his true colors and complete lack of class or character.

I do not believe that we would ever see a Rooney owned or Tomlin, Cowher, Noll coached team doing something like that. :thumbsup:

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-21-2009, 08:22 PM
Bravo...

I find it comical that comments are made concerning "Pop Warner Coachs" and such being able to "see our play calling coming".

1. OBVIOUSLY it's too bad that the Cardinals weren't up to that "Pop Warner" level because then they would have EASILY defeated us. I guess the Ravens and Chargers weren't up to that level either...man the NFL is getting soft isn't it?

2. Coach Tomlin, the Rooney family, Ben, etc. must be real morons to not see what is so OBVIOUS to all of the astute football minds in this thread who have so EASILY ascertained our problem as being Bruce Arians! I'm thinking that the Steelers will be calling some folks on this board first thing tomorrow morning with job offers!

3. Sorry for the sarcasm, but in all fairness, do any of those bashing Arians have jobs in the NFL? I'm not kidding, I'm serious! I find it perplexing how folks with NO NFL coaching or playing experience are so quick to second guess OUR SUPER BOWL CHAMPION COACHES AND FRONT OFFICE! To quote Will Ferrell: "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!"

1) That is a bad straw man argument. Bad playcalling does not mean that opposing teams can hold a team to 0 yards. Bad playcalling did contribute to a very talented offense ending up 22nd in the NFL.

2+3) This is also a strawman. People having hobs in the NFL does not mean that they are geniuses who automatically know more than the average fan. In fact, their track record overall is not much better than the average fan. There are plenty of knowledgable fans here who can have very valid criticisms of most NFL personnel people and coaches. The Steelers have typically been one of the best, but as noted with Kordell Stewart and others there have been plenty of mistakes.

These criticisms and concerns are valid. Every football team can get better and every team changes from year to year. If offseason changes are not something you think should be discussed than offseason football message boards are not a good place to be.

wezx
06-21-2009, 08:41 PM
Slamming coaches with the vitriol I've been reading in this thread isn't "discussion". To wit, there is a vast difference between constructive criticism and negative attacks. I'm all for constructive positive discussion about improving the team. I'm not much interested in ad hominem attacks and negative slamming of coaches or players.

"their track record overall is not much better than the average fan."

I'm just curious what data would back that statement up. THIS is a strawman. Since no "average fan" is ever in a position to make decisions in a pro game, there can't be any end result data from the fan, so any such comparisons are unverifiable.

I haven't seen any "average" fans winning any Super Bowls.

wezx
06-21-2009, 08:45 PM
"Bad play calling (and stats)" also ended up in a Super Bowl victory.

"Great play calling (and stats)" a la the Patriots ended up in a Super Bowl loss.

Sorry, given the choice I'll take the win.

But don't mind me...talk amongst yourselves...

wezx
06-21-2009, 08:52 PM
My #1 point is not a straw man:

The assertion made by others in this thread is that the Steelers offensive (pun intended) play calling was so bad that a "Pop Warner team" could figure it out. If this were accepted as a presupposition then it could be concluded that the opponents we defeated last year were below the level of a "Pop Warner" team, otherwise they would have easily figured it out and defeated us. I nowhere indicated that I was talking about "0 yards", that is your own addition. I'm talking about victories...I believe that is where the rubber meets the road.

The "Pop Warner" assertion is the true straw man, because there is no way to verify or test the presupposition, since obviously no "Pop Warner" team is going to play an NFL team. It's a vacuous statement with no real world validity.

As for point #2 Of course mistakes are made and no organization is perfect, however "Kordell Stewart and others" didn't win any Super Bowls.

thumper
06-21-2009, 08:57 PM
What are you suggesting then. Firing Arian 3 months before the season starts, or dismantling the offensive line?

All I am really suggesting is they stop wasting so many downs on runs up the middle. Not saying they can't do it some 1st and 2nd downs. Just don't be obvious and predictable. If in order to do so, Tomlin has to give BA some guidance, then so be it. Run more screens and play action passes. Is that asking too much? AND, do more to improve the OL than basically one pick in the draft (other than the 7th who probably won't make the team)

wezx
06-21-2009, 09:01 PM
All I am really suggesting is they stop wasting so many downs on runs up the middle. Not saying they can't do it some 1st and 2nd downs. Just don't be obvious and predictable. If in order to do so, Tomlin has to give BA some guidance, then so be it. Run more screens and play action passes. Is that asking too much? AND, do more to improve the OL than basically one pick in the draft (other than the 7th who probably won't make the team)

THAT was a good constructive post. There were no personal attacks and thumper just voiced his ideas about improving the offense...nice.

Can't we all just get along? :hug:

Texasteel
06-21-2009, 09:29 PM
All I am really suggesting is they stop wasting so many downs on runs up the middle. Not saying they can't do it some 1st and 2nd downs. Just don't be obvious and predictable. If in order to do so, Tomlin has to give BA some guidance, then so be it. Run more screens and play action passes. Is that asking too much? AND, do more to improve the OL than basically one pick in the draft (other than the 7th who probably won't make the team)

Well since the coaching staff will most like not see any of this, and I would say would care less if they did. This has just become a bitch sections, which we all need from time to time. God knows I pulled at my hair often enough. I think everything that can be said, has been said on the subject and it may be time to move on. This last post was clear concise and you made some valid points.

I would love to talk about the line, as I said in a post earlier, I think this line will be much better than it was last year, but it may be best to start a new thread for that.

wezx
06-21-2009, 09:34 PM
Well since the coaching staff will most like not see any of this, and I would say would care less if they did. This has just become a bitch sections, which we all need from time to time. God knows I pulled at my hair often enough. I think everything that can be said, has been said on the subject and it may be time to move on. This last post was clear concise and you made some valid points.

I would love to talk about the line, as I said in a post earlier, I think this line will be much better than it was last year, but it may be best to start a new thread for that.

Good call.

ShutDown24
06-21-2009, 09:58 PM
....he says the OL was only responsible for 19 sacks. They rest were due to TEs, RBs not picking up their assignments and WRs not running their hot routes.

OK, let's say that's true. Let's go with it, for the sake of argument.

Even if that is true, you can't tell me this OL is any good. Why? How about because they almost never open up any holes for the running game. Do you know where Pgh ranked (Pgh, the team who has the major identity of being a rushing team) for rushing in the NFL?

23rd....out of 32. I'd think, a team that emphasized the rush as the Steelers do, to be at least 16th.

And their average per rush? A more telling stat on where you really rate as a rushing attack? 3.7. Only two teams had a worse average rushing per attempt in the entire NFL. TWO! And it's not as if there isn't a BIG difference between the quality rushing teams and how pathetic Pgh was. NYG had a FIVE yard AVERAGE per RUSH. Broncos and Pathers had a 4.8. Can you even imagine how dominant this team would be with an above 4.5 avg. per rush?

Yea, we won a Super Bowl. But no one can tell me there isn't lots of room for improvement in our rushing game, and much of that is with the OL. Oh, and did I mention play calling? That's another HUGE reason for such an anemic rushing game.

I have faith that Tomlin knows they need to become a much better rushing game. Please, God, please make that true. They won't win another ring with that lame of a rushing attack. It won't happen again.

We just won the Superbowl. In Tomlin/Arians second year as the teams HC/OC. I'm going to reserve my concern.

Preacher
06-21-2009, 11:18 PM
All I am really suggesting is they stop wasting so many downs on runs up the middle. Not saying they can't do it some 1st and 2nd downs. Just don't be obvious and predictable. If in order to do so, Tomlin has to give BA some guidance, then so be it. Run more screens and play action passes. Is that asking too much? AND, do more to improve the OL than basically one pick in the draft (other than the 7th who probably won't make the team)


And this is why Arians IS brilliant compared to the average fan.

It takes Linemen that can sell it. Last year our linemen were pretty much all Steeler line rookies. Do you REALLY want to put a timing play in where each of them have to come off the line, block for a 2 count, release, then move forward without going beyond the line of scrimmage? Remember, we had problems with our linemen going beyond the line of scrimmage off the SNAP.

I remember some of the screens we tried to run... most were DISASTROUS. Arians SMARTLY took them out of the playbook because our O line couldn't handle them, and our QB, RB's couldn't sell them.

Now, I expect in camp that will get fixed. But last year, with the rag-tag emergency line we put together, nope. No screenpasses, thank goodness.

Preacher
06-21-2009, 11:22 PM
All I am really suggesting is they stop wasting so many downs on runs up the middle. Not saying they can't do it some 1st and 2nd downs. Just don't be obvious and predictable. If in order to do so, Tomlin has to give BA some guidance, then so be it. Run more screens and play action passes. Is that asking too much? AND, do more to improve the OL than basically one pick in the draft (other than the 7th who probably won't make the team)


In assessing Ben’s performance Monday night it also needs to be pointed out that he got no help from Bruce Arian’s play calling.



Mewlede Moore (http://steelcurtainrising.blogspot.com/2008/10/watch-tower-should-mewelde-moore-have.html) disappeared from the both the rushing and passing game in the first half.
Ben’s difficulties became obvious early on yet Arian’s stubbornly stuck to his “throw first” philosophy, calling passes on four first downs.
He also called pass plays on two third and two situations. Both attempts failed. One ended in a sack.

Steel Curtain Rising has already admitted to an affinity for Smash Mouth football. But our critique of Arians goes far beyond a “way things ought to be” mind set.

No one is advocating return to Ron Erhardt’s run on first, run on second and, if its three yards or less, run on third approach, but a commitment to establishing the run would ease things for the passing game, even if the Steelers are not running on all cylinders. http://steelcurtainrising.blogspot.com/2008/11/bruce-arians-in-bulls-eye.html


Damned if you do, damned if you don't, damned even if you don't because they still think you do, and damned if you do, because they don't want you to.

TackleMeBen
06-21-2009, 11:28 PM
i just want on OL that can keep our qb up right. and even with our crappy ol last year we still won the superbowl.

Steelers & I
06-22-2009, 12:08 AM
So - let me see here - if the Steelers don't go 16-0 and our offense isn't on top of the rankings, but we win another Super Bowl, that's a bad thing? :banging:

Who the hell cares about rankings and stats? :shake02:


http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l13/bkakers/biggeekhead_profile_page.jpg


This guy cares. He finished the season in 8th place, narrowly missing the playoffs, in his office fantasy footbal league.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 01:03 AM
"Bad play calling (and stats)" also ended up in a Super Bowl victory.

"Great play calling (and stats)" a la the Patriots ended up in a Super Bowl loss.

Sorry, given the choice I'll take the win.

But don't mind me...talk amongst yourselves... Thats great, but what does that have to do with this thread which is trying to figure out who was responsible for the mediocre offense?

wezx
06-22-2009, 01:08 AM
Thats great, but what does that have to do with this thread which is trying to figure out who was responsible for the mediocre offense?

This thread has had very little to do with "figuring out who was responsible for the mediocre offense" and more to do with just bashing a scapegopat without realizing that the issue is more complex than a generalization focusing on one variable, such as an OC.

I would also point you to Preacher's post #187 above..."Damned if you do, damned if you don't, damned even if you don't because they still think you do, and damned if you do, because they don't want you to."

wezx
06-22-2009, 01:10 AM
We just won the Superbowl. In Tomlin/Arians second year as the teams HC/OC. I'm going to reserve my concern.

My sentiments exactly...I swear this is the same kind of thread I see in the Cleveland Browns fan media around here...and they were 4-12!

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-22-2009, 01:29 AM
And this is why Arians IS brilliant compared to the average fan.

It takes Linemen that can sell it. Last year our linemen were pretty much all Steeler line rookies. Do you REALLY want to put a timing play in where each of them have to come off the line, block for a 2 count, release, then move forward without going beyond the line of scrimmage? Remember, we had problems with our linemen going beyond the line of scrimmage off the SNAP.

I remember some of the screens we tried to run... most were DISASTROUS. Arians SMARTLY took them out of the playbook because our O line couldn't handle them, and our QB, RB's couldn't sell them.

Now, I expect in camp that will get fixed. But last year, with the rag-tag emergency line we put together, nope. No screenpasses, thank goodness.\

Preacher, I think if you consider past BA run offenses, he does not use RB screens that often. Its not a function of analyzing the lineman talent and adapting, but rather running his system and having the players carry out those plans. I think you are more likely to see BA run multiple TE's and then screen pass to the weak side TE. He utilizes that much more.

As to Thumpers thoughts of running outside more, its OK in college, but not the NFL. Just about everybody on the defense was "on scholarship" and has speed, so running east-west on an NFL field with hashmarks in the middle, is mostly a waste of time.

The general thought is to have your running backs get north-south and run toward the safety as fast as possible. That is why inside running and off tackle plays where the RB can get to the 2nd level and beyond are the most productive in the NFL. You have to be able to run between the tackles.

Preacher
06-22-2009, 02:56 AM
\

Preacher, I think if you consider past BA run offenses, he does not use RB screens that often. Its not a function of analyzing the lineman talent and adapting, but rather running his system and having the players carry out those plans. I think you are more likely to see BA run multiple TE's and then screen pass to the weak side TE. He utilizes that much more.

That could be true... and he seems to also run quite a bit of receiver screens as well... "quick throws".

I don't know, with our Offensive line, that may be a good thing. I do think a few more screens might be a good idea. But I gotta admit. When half of the defense seems to be right in the middle of our guys on a screen, the ones I DID see them try and do were quite a bit scarier than I imagine.

You know who could really help us with that?

JOHN KUHN!

wezx
06-22-2009, 03:02 AM
For anyone having trouble deciphering the difference between a "discussion" and a "slamfest"...the last 2 posts are a "discussion".

Steelers & I
06-22-2009, 06:07 AM
For anyone having trouble deciphering the difference between a "discussion" and a "slamfest"...the last 2 posts are a "discussion".

The slamfests are a two-way street although some would have you believe that they're a one-way street. I tend to believe that it's a right of way issue. Some have the right of way at all times. :busted:

fansince'76
06-22-2009, 08:41 AM
For anyone having trouble deciphering the difference between a "discussion" and a "slamfest"...the last 2 posts are a "discussion".

And others of a more paranoid bent would have you believe that there's a hierarchical "clique" here when there is no such thing. :coffee:

Dino 6 Rings
06-22-2009, 09:38 AM
And you have not dis proven one stat. If you have, please name it here and I will acknowledge it immediately.

Your same cute little stats website that you suggest we go check out that "shows" Moore is better than Parker also shows Big Ben is the 23rd Best QB in the NFL and that Nate Washington is more "productive" than Santonio Holmes. That analysis is what you use to base your "moore" argument on. I disproved your theories and ideas.

Your STATS are and have been Disproven.

Its about wins, not stats. Steelers went 12-4 in the regular season and 3-0 in the post season. Those are the Stats that really matter.

As for Arians, I have posted the ENTIRE offensive playcalling from the Super Bowl and no one person has pointed out the Single Play Call that was "wrong" or bad. Or suggested what he should have called place of the "mistaken" call he made as the OC of the Super Bowl winning Team.

Please, do, point to me the spot where he should have called something different.

Dino 6 Rings
06-22-2009, 09:44 AM
I've done it for a ton of the games throughout the season as well. Posted the Actual Play calls in each game, per situation, down and distance and what not, and no one can actually point to the run call that should have been a pass or a pass that should have been a run with any real coaching knowledge and back up to explain their decision other than "well the run didn't work that time".

Seriously...step up, and "coach" the team up and show why, or back down and accept the fact the Steelers Won it All in spite of all the Haters and Nay Sayers and Negative Nancys thinking they couldn't do it.

This year, our running game WILL be better. I know it, because last year, we needed better coverage, and Tomlin got that fixed. This year we need a better running game, especially in the short yardage situations, and I am confident that Tomlin will address and get that fixed too.

Also our Return game will be better, he's addressing that as well.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-22-2009, 09:53 AM
I don't know, with our Offensive line, that may be a good thing. I do think a few more screens might be a good idea. But I gotta admit. When half of the defense seems to be right in the middle of our guys on a screen, the ones I DID see them try and do were quite a bit scarier than I imagine.
!

Padre, the way a screen is gonna work is if the QB sells the pass and the O line passively blocks, but leaves a throwing lane back to the RB or TE. I seemed to see the same thing as you in that the defenders didnt bite on Ben's pass or Ben has to throw over defenders to get the ball to the RB.

I honestly think our screens dont work well because there isnt a lane for Ben to throw and he doesnt sell it well. I think Zeirline and Anderson can do a better job coaching their positions on it, but again, this offense doesnt use a lot of screen passes.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-22-2009, 10:06 AM
And others of a more paranoid bent would have you believe that there's a hierarchical "clique" here when there is no such thing. :coffee:

76, its also more of knowing the other posters around here and their views. Honestly when I was a noob, there were some posters like Preacher for instance that I don't think I understood his views and we may have gotten into some spirited disagreements.

Now, I think after a year, I understand where he(and other posters) is coming from and we can have a decent discussion because I respect his point of view, even if I dont agree. Hopefully the reciprocal is true.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-22-2009, 10:19 AM
And others of a more paranoid bent would have you believe that there's a hierarchical "clique" here when there is no such thing. :coffee:

That reminds me...Is it my turn to bring refreshments to the next (secret) meeting for us "cool guys". :hunch:

revefsreleets
06-22-2009, 10:23 AM
Ummm, I understand that if you want to bleed the clock it sure helps if you can gain some first downs in the process. A 2.8 ypc isn't getting it done, regardless of the strategy. Pre-Arians Steelers teams COULD rush the ball, and get first down in the process to procure a win. Arians system/O-line stinks to bad, that it can't do it. We saw the perfect example in the Super Bowl and had to have Ben save our ass once again. A Belichick team would have never lost that lead, because BB remains unpredictable and keeps making first downs and keeps scoring.

You can't have it both ways. You want to run the ball and protect the lead, but be gadgety and imaginative in the process? It doesn't really work that way. Steelers ball implies that you run the ball to control the clock. You can't just run sweeps or draws to do that, at some point you just have to line up and let your big guys block their big guys and make some holes. It HURTS the Steelers IMMENSELY to A) Not have a dominant run blocking line and B) Not have a stud power running back.

I will state the obvious AGAIN that you cannot just rip whole types of plays out of the playbook when injuries and circumstances dictate that you don't have the best personnel to execute every type of play to perfection. What this is is Arians haters cutting the argument into tiny slivers in order to lay the blame all at his feet. It ignores the other myriad facets of the Steelers COLLECTIVE offensive woes. It's the cheap easy excuse to dump the blame on Arians lap. Every time I point that out I get accused of attacking posters, but there's a real argument that I'm attacking, and if you fall into the camp of someone on that side of the fence, well, so be it. It doesn't change the fact that Arians shares some blame, but in no way is 100% to blame for the woes of the Steelers offense.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 01:05 PM
Your same cute little stats website that you suggest we go check out that "shows" Moore is better than Parker also shows Big Ben is the 23rd Best QB in the NFL and that Nate Washington is more "productive" than Santonio Holmes. That analysis is what you use to base your "moore" argument on. I disproved your theories and ideas.

Your STATS are and have been Disproven.

Its about wins, not stats. Steelers went 12-4 in the regular season and 3-0 in the post season. Those are the Stats that really matter.

As for Arians, I have posted the ENTIRE offensive playcalling from the Super Bowl and no one person has pointed out the Single Play Call that was "wrong" or bad. Or suggested what he should have called place of the "mistaken" call he made as the OC of the Super Bowl winning Team.

Please, do, point to me the spot where he should have called something different. Sorry, but that is not the case. You are disagreeing with a statistical analysis, but not the statistics. It is fine to disagree with a statistical analysis (which is a way to interpret stats, or facts), but you have not provided any alternative analysis or any statistics to counter my point.

My question revolves around a straightforward question...Why was Moore not in the gameplan at all down the stretch when the offense was clearly better with Moore rather than Parker in the backfield?

Turns out, the Willie Parker bias is significant enough that posters have a hard time acknowledging this being the case, much less having a dialog about it.

So again I ask you to point to one statistic, or fact, that suggests that the Steelers did not handicap their own offense by going with an all-Willie Parker gameplan.

To me, this is part of Arians flawed gameplan.

Dino 6 Rings
06-22-2009, 01:17 PM
Sorry, but that is not the case. You are disagreeing with a statistical analysis, but not the statistics. It is fine to disagree with a statistical analysis (which is a way to interpret stats, or facts), but you have not provided any alternative analysis or any statistics to counter my point.

My question revolves around a straightforward question...Why was Moore not in the gameplan at all down the stretch when the offense was clearly better with Moore rather than Parker in the backfield?

Turns out, the Willie Parker bias is significant enough that posters have a hard time acknowledging this being the case, much less having a dialog about it.

So again I ask you to point to one statistic, or fact, that suggests that the Steelers did not handicap their own offense by going with an all-Willie Parker gameplan.

To me, this is part of Arians flawed gameplan.


Its simple, when Willie was in the Game, the other team had to Game Plan for his Break Away speed and big play potential. hence, 8-2 and 3-0 with him as the starter, but when Moore was the starter, we went 2-2. The reason being the Defenses of the other team could pull off our "running game" and focus more on our Passing Attack without worrying about Willie taking one 60 yards.

That is exactly what you refuse to notice. ALL the facts about each game. Sure, when Moore was in, he did Exactly what was expected of him, perform at a high level and carry the water while Willie Healed. He is Not a Starter in the NFL for 16 games. That's not his Role, his role is to back up, and play if the Starter is hurt. I love the Moore signing and am a Huge fan to his contributions to the team, but I do not want him as a starter for this upcoming season or as the "go to guy" each and every game. He's a part of the Machine. A replacement gear, but not the engine itself.

Arians is the designer. And Until someone shows me the "bad calls" he's made, in an actual Game Time situation, I will argue that he is a pretty good OC. And this is all from a guy that Couldn't Stand him during the season last year until I personally went and broke down the Game Time play calls situation by situation.

Dino 6 Rings
06-22-2009, 01:19 PM
By the way, when is Washington going to get a Real QB over there and stop ruining the career of Clinton Portis?

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 01:31 PM
Its simple, when Willie was in the Game, the other team had to Game Plan for his Break Away speed and big play potential. hence, 8-2 and 3-0 with him as the starter, but when Moore was the starter, we went 2-2. The reason being the Defenses of the other team could pull off our "running game" and focus more on our Passing Attack without worrying about Willie taking one 60 yards.

That is exactly what you refuse to notice. ALL the facts about each game. Sure, when Moore was in, he did Exactly what was expected of him, perform at a high level and carry the water while Willie Healed. He is Not a Starter in the NFL for 16 games. That's not his Role, his role is to back up, and play if the Starter is hurt. I love the Moore signing and am a Huge fan to his contributions to the team, but I do not want him as a starter for this upcoming season or as the "go to guy" each and every game. He's a part of the Machine. A replacement gear, but not the engine itself.

Arians is the designer. And Until someone shows me the "bad calls" he's made, in an actual Game Time situation, I will argue that he is a pretty good OC. And this is all from a guy that Couldn't Stand him during the season last year until I personally went and broke down the Game Time play calls situation by situation. To be clear, your argument is based on opinions, not facts. Labels, like being a backup or replacement gear, is an opinion and nothing more. In college, Willie Parker was deemed not good enough to be a replacement gear, so that is the kind of thing that is subject to change.

But your insistence that other teams somehow ignore the Steelers RB if he is not Willie Parker does not hold water. Again, if a player has not broken a long run for 2 years, defenses are not very worried about that happening.

Simply put, Moore was effective where Parker was not. See John Harris comments in his review of the Jaguars game (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/columns/s_591870.html).

By the time Moore hit his seventh carry, early in the second quarter, he was just under the 50-yard milestone -- no idle accomplishment so early in the contest. As a result, Jacksonville's hostile defenders were forced to stop teeing off on quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, such was their sudden concern about stopping the run.

And that result was consistent with the Parker/Moore comparison all season. So again I ask why the Arians went away from that.

revefsreleets
06-22-2009, 01:39 PM
I'll assert this, and there's no real way to prove or disprove it, other than to say common sense SHOULD kick in here (but it won't).

If there roles were reversed, and Moore got Willie's carries in the same situations, and Willie got Moore's carries in the same situations, Parker would have done a statistically better job. Why? Because he's the better RB. Why? Because he's a journeyman back-up, and Parker was, until an injury, the leading rusher in the league a few years ago.

I'm not some huge Parker fan, either, but (and I know we've been over this before) Moore got the benefit of "The Davenport Effect", that being a change of pace back, running out of the spread, running in passing formations, running against defenses that didn't gameplan for him, etc, etc...

This stuff always balances out in the end. You have an offense where you ask Melwelde Moore to bang it the middle and run in obvious run situations on a consistent basis, and you'll see his stats run right down into the ground.

Dino 6 Rings
06-22-2009, 01:40 PM
Jacksonville was Playing PASS first because Moore was in the game. You're own example shows that. They weren't keying on the run to start with which is why Moore had such a great start to the game.

As for why is Moore a backup, because the coaches of Minnesota and Pittsburgh both agree, the guy isn't the Money Making Running Back for the Franchise.

I'll take their word for it.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 01:51 PM
I'll assert this, and there's no real way to prove or disprove it, other than to say common sense SHOULD kick in here (but it won't).

If there roles were reversed, and Moore got Willie's carries in the same situations, and Willie got Moore's carries in the same situations, Parker would have done a statistically better job. Why? Because he's the better RB. Why? Because he's a journeyman back-up, and Parker was, until an injury, the leading rusher in the league a few years ago.

I'm not some huge Parker fan, either, but (and I know we've been over this before) Moore got the benefit of "The Davenport Effect", that being a change of pace back, running out of the spread, running in passing formations, running against defenses that didn't gameplan for him, etc, etc...

This stuff always balances out in the end. You have an offense where you ask Melwelde Moore to bang it the middle and run in obvious run situations on a consistent basis, and you'll see his stats run right down into the ground. OK. I think you may be confusing common sense for conventional wisdom, but ok. You are entitled to think that Parker is the better back, but that is somewhat irrelevant here.

Whether because he was hurt, or defenses were keying on him, or because defense forgot to play the run when Moore was in the game or because defenses had to respect a pass-catching threat out of the backfield with Moore....it does not change the fact that the Steelers were more effective with Moore. How and why are sort of irrelevant (and that is where everyone is entitled to their opinion).

Not only did they go away from that, but they took it completely out of the gameplan down the stretch. Why and is that not more a part of the questioning of Arians?

revefsreleets
06-22-2009, 02:05 PM
Being the more gifted and talented back is irrelevant?

Errrrrr....okay. Whatever, dude...

By this "logic", in 2007 Najeh Davenport, who averaged 4.7 YPC and 5 TD's was the far more fit back and made the Steelers better than Willie Parker.

Except that makes no sense at all unless you are Najeh Davenport's agent or grandmother. Or adhere strongly to the kind of unconventional wisdom that finds back-up level running backs to be better running backs than the starters.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 02:17 PM
Being the more gifted and talented back is irrelevant?

Errrrrr....okay. Whatever, dude...

By this "logic", in 2007 Najeh Davenport, who averaged 4.7 YPC and 5 TD's was the far more fit back and made the Steelers better than Willie Parker.

Except that makes no sense at all unless you are Najeh Davenport's agent or grandmother. Or adhere strongly to the kind of unconventional wisdom that finds back-up level running backs to be better running backs than the starters. Yes. More gifted/talented is an opinion (even if its widely held).

Ladanian Tomlinson is the most talented RB in the NFL but the Chargers were more effective when Darren Sproles was playing (even if it had to do with LTs health). The Chargers were not afraid to go to Sproles whereas the Steelers stuck with Willie Parker even though he as ineffective. Why?

As for the Davenport comparison, no. The Steelers were not a more effective offense with Davenport even if he had a higher YPC.

Hammer67
06-22-2009, 02:21 PM
Wow...this thread got up there in posts in a hurry. Does everyone just love retreading fruitless arguments over and over? I didn't read 90% of this topic but I bet I can tell you who said what and where it is going....

LOL! Love the offseason!

revefsreleets
06-22-2009, 02:22 PM
So the Vikings AND Steelers know less about Melwelde Moore than you?

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 02:28 PM
So the Vikings AND Steelers know less about Melwelde Moore than you? I am asking the question. While I think Tomlin is very astute, I have no problem thinking that I am as good or better at talent assessment than Brad "Tarvaris Jackson is better than Donovan McNabb" Childress.

The Steelers have plenty of people who crunch the numbers so they must know.

As for Tomlin, as you recall, Parker and Moore were sharing the carries pretty evenly until Parker complained. Tomlin smacked him down ("I dont walk by 5 rushing titles, I walk by 5 Lombardi trophies") and then somehow caved in and Moore disappeared from the gameplan. Since it came close to costing the team a Super Bowl, I am certainly curious as to the reasoning. Managing Willie Parkers ego seems to be a priority (and I have never seen such a selfish player be such a fan favorite).

revefsreleets
06-22-2009, 02:29 PM
Perhaps there is an agenda here, no? Didn't Moore attend Tulane? Didn't YOU attend Tulane?

Perhaps just the slightest bit of bias here?

Nevermind...my question is answered: You DO think you know better.

Please carry on, kind sir...but i must recuse myself at this point based on that particular sentiment.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 02:35 PM
Perhaps there is an agenda here, no? Didn't Moore attend Tulane? Didn't YOU attend Tulane?

Perhaps just the slightest bit of bias here?

Nevermind...my question is answered: You DO think you know better.

Please carry on, kind sir...but i must recuse myself at this point based on that particular sentiment.
You are entitled to think whatever you want, but I have never used anything other than facts. I have never offered an opinion.

It is not an opinion that the Steelers offense was better with Moore. It is a fact that no one seems to want to acknowledge. I do not understand that much.

mmalone
06-22-2009, 02:58 PM
You are entitled to think whatever you want, but I have never used anything other than facts. I have never offered an opinion.

It is not an opinion that the Steelers offense was better with Moore. It is a fact that no one seems to want to acknowledge. I do not understand that much.


hers is a series.... arians up the middle series.... notice the 8 yards to moore passing... please spare the outcome it doesnt matter.....
ben thows a bad one so what, the point is moore catches in the counter blitz plays.


Pittsburgh Steelers at 1:43 NYG PIT
1st and 10 at NYG 49 (1:43) M.Moore right end pushed ob at NYG 44 for 5 yards (D.Clark).
2nd and 5 at NYG 44 (1:15) M.Moore right tackle to NYG 39 for 5 yards (J.Butler).
1st and 10 at NYG 39 (:34) M.Moore right end to NYG 35 for 4 yards (C.Webster).
2nd and 6 at NYG 35 (:03) M.Moore right tackle to NYG 37 for -2 yards (J.Tuck, M.Johnson).
4th Quarter NYG PIT
Pittsburgh Steelers continued. NYG PIT
3rd and 8 at NYG 37 (15:00) (Shotgun) PENALTY on PIT-W.Colon, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 37 - No Play.
3rd and 13 at NYG 42 (15:00) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass short right to M.Moore to NYG 34 for 8 yards (M.Johnson).
4th and 5 at NYG 34 (14:10) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass short middle intended for H.Ward INTERCEPTED by C.Webster at NYG 25.


an arians series using willie... ..... outcome doesnt matter

1st and 10 at PIT 31 (3:21) W.Parker right guard to PIT 31 for no gain (S.Rogers, A.Davis).
Timeout #1 by CLV at 03:16.
2nd and 10 at PIT 31 (3:16) B.Roethlisberger pass deep middle to H.Miller to 50 for 19 yards (M.Adams).
Timeout #2 by CLV at 02:57.
1st and 10 at 50 (2:57) W.Parker right tackle to CLV 46 for 4 yards (K.Wimbley).
Timeout #3 by CLV at 02:42.
2nd and 6 at CLV 46 (2:42) W.Parker right guard pushed ob at CLV 27 for 19 yards (B.Pool).
1st and 10 at CLV 27 (2:34) W.Parker left tackle to CLV 27 for no gain (S.Smith, A.Davis).
Two-Minute Warning
2nd and 10 at CLV 27 (2:00) W.Parker right tackle to CLV 23 for 4 yards (A.Davis).
3rd and 6 at CLV 23 (1:19) W.Parker left guard to CLV 21 for 2 yards (D.Jackson, C.Williams).
Timeout #1 by PIT at 00:30.
4th and 4 at CLV 21 (:30) W.Parker right tackle to CLV 26 for -5 yards (M.Adams).

Willie does good here.. but the plays???

But the killer is Arians, Willie gets 19 yards and we dont go for the heart

Miller gets 19 yards and we dont go for a big play...

this browns series is horrible... its like we dont want to score....

our offense is great, the gameplan is off.

Dino 6 Rings
06-22-2009, 03:21 PM
hers is a series.... arians up the middle series.... notice the 8 yards to moore passing... please spare the outcome it doesnt matter.....
ben thows a bad one so what, the point is moore catches in the counter blitz plays.


an arians series using willie... ..... outcome doesnt matter

1st and 10 at PIT 31 (3:21) W.Parker right guard to PIT 31 for no gain (S.Rogers, A.Davis).
Timeout #1 by CLV at 03:16.
2nd and 10 at PIT 31 (3:16) B.Roethlisberger pass deep middle to H.Miller to 50 for 19 yards (M.Adams).
Timeout #2 by CLV at 02:57.
1st and 10 at 50 (2:57) W.Parker right tackle to CLV 46 for 4 yards (K.Wimbley).
Timeout #3 by CLV at 02:42.
2nd and 6 at CLV 46 (2:42) W.Parker right guard pushed ob at CLV 27 for 19 yards (B.Pool).
1st and 10 at CLV 27 (2:34) W.Parker left tackle to CLV 27 for no gain (S.Smith, A.Davis).
Two-Minute Warning
2nd and 10 at CLV 27 (2:00) W.Parker right tackle to CLV 23 for 4 yards (A.Davis).
3rd and 6 at CLV 23 (1:19) W.Parker left guard to CLV 21 for 2 yards (D.Jackson, C.Williams).
Timeout #1 by PIT at 00:30.
4th and 4 at CLV 21 (:30) W.Parker right tackle to CLV 26 for -5 yards (M.Adams).

Willie does good here.. but the plays???

But the killer is Arians, Willie gets 19 yards and we dont go for the heart

Miller gets 19 yards and we dont go for a big play...

this browns series is horrible... its like we dont want to score....

our offense is great, the gameplan is off.


Dude, the flaw in your argument is that this series, from the Browns game is Us Killing the Clock. We could have kicked a field goal from the 23 and gone up 13-6. Instead we just ate up some more clock time, left Cleveland with the ball at their own 26 with zero time outs and 26 seconds left in the game. We were going to let our defense win us the game with under 30 seconds left.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 03:48 PM
Dude, the flaw in your argument is that this series, from the Browns game is Us Killing the Clock. We could have kicked a field goal from the 23 and gone up 13-6. Instead we just ate up some more clock time, left Cleveland with the ball at their own 26 with zero time outs and 26 seconds left in the game. We were going to let our defense win us the game with under 30 seconds left. Picking out random series does not tell the story. Its very simple. Lets look at the 4 games Moore started vs the 11 games Parker started.

4 gms MM - 90 yds rushing/gm, 4.5 ypc, 20 yds rec/gm (110 yds/gm)
Steelers offense-341 yds/gm, 25.3 ppg

11 gms WP- 71 yds/gm, 3.8 ypc, 0 yds rec/gm
Steelers offense- 308 yds/gm, 20.5 ppg

(If you subtract the 2 WP starts where WP and MM shared carries pretty evenly, the Steelers offense drops to 299 yds/gm and a pathetic 18.4 ppg)

The 4 defenses (NFL rank in parenthesis) MM started against were NYG (5th), Ind (11th), Cincinnatti (12th), and Jacksonville (17th).

So once again, the numbers show a pretty dramatic difference. The Steelers rank with Moore in the backfield moves up to 14th in total yards and 9th in ppg. The games with WP starting fall to 24th in total yards and 24th in ppg.

No opinions in there. MM averaged FORTY yards per game more, and 40 yds/gm more would have given the Steelers a top 10 offense.

So if you have to assume the coaching staff is aware of this, why did they go back to exclusively using Parker?

solardave
06-22-2009, 03:50 PM
I believe with Summers opening up holes for Parker,Mendenhal or Moore we will improve our run game. For that matter Summers can open up holes for himself. Let's face it. willie is not a power back. Moore was our saving grace. I don't understand keeping Davis instead of Russell but that shouldn't matter. I think Davis is gone soon anyhow. All this opens up the passing attack which I think is going to improve with the maturation of Sweed. It's all good! Now on the defensive side Timmons is an upgrade.
Don't be surprised to see Hood in at NT as an experiment. He can bulk up and take over there. Or he could beat out Keisel. there's a lot to be excited about here. Bring on New England.

steelreserve
06-22-2009, 04:12 PM
No opinions in there. MM averaged FORTY yards per game more, and 40 yds/gm more would have given the Steelers a top 10 offense.

So if you have to assume the coaching staff is aware of this, why did they go back to exclusively using Parker?

I don't know, but effective use of personnel at RB has been my biggest gripe for years. I don't think they've gotten it right since Bettis retired.

Parker is a specialty back, and I think the problem is that key people don't recognize that because he puts up respectable yardage totals over the course of a whole season. However, mixed in with that are probably 100 plays a year that we throw away by having the wrong personnel for the situation, which is completely preventable. But by using him as the ONLY back, we're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. That's my frustration with him, anyway.

Don't get me wrong -- Moore is also a specialty back, just with a different set of skills. I happen to think those skills fit what we're trying to do on offense a little better, but it's not like he's going to win any MVP awards either.

And for that matter, Russell was a specialty back. Davenport was a specialty back. None of them, Parker included, were very attractive options to play every down. That's why I don't buy it when all the time, you hear Parker supporters say "What, would you rather have had Russell be the starter?" or "Oh yeah, if he sucks so bad, why didn't Davenport beat him out?" No. That's not the issue. If they were doing it right, Parker wouldn't be "competing" head-to-head with any of those guys per se; for the past couple of years, they'd all have been part of an effective system together. I don't know whether that falls on Arians or Tomlin or Parker or someone else, but it seems like one thing that could be fixed rather instantaneously with the backs we've got now.

Dino 6 Rings
06-22-2009, 04:46 PM
Picking out random series does not tell the story. Its very simple. Lets look at the 4 games Moore started vs the 11 games Parker started.

4 gms MM - 90 yds rushing/gm, 4.5 ypc, 20 yds rec/gm (110 yds/gm)
Steelers offense-341 yds/gm, 25.3 ppg

11 gms WP- 71 yds/gm, 3.8 ypc, 0 yds rec/gm
Steelers offense- 308 yds/gm, 20.5 ppg

(If you subtract the 2 WP starts where WP and MM shared carries pretty evenly, the Steelers offense drops to 299 yds/gm and a pathetic 18.4 ppg)

The 4 defenses (NFL rank in parenthesis) MM started against were NYG (5th), Ind (11th), Cincinnatti (12th), and Jacksonville (17th).

So once again, the numbers show a pretty dramatic difference. The Steelers rank with Moore in the backfield moves up to 14th in total yards and 9th in ppg. The games with WP starting fall to 24th in total yards and 24th in ppg.

No opinions in there. MM averaged FORTY yards per game more, and 40 yds/gm more would have given the Steelers a top 10 offense.

So if you have to assume the coaching staff is aware of this, why did they go back to exclusively using Parker?


First off, I was responding to a series that was picked out by the person I quoted, I posted the ENTIRE Super Bowl series by series play by play and asked where the flaw was in the actual Play Call.

You proved my point about Willie Parker over Moore already, but quoting the Jacksonville coaches who said, flat out, they had to stop, keying on Ben, which was their plan since Willie wasn't in the game. So Moore had a great start to the game, and the Defense had to adjust to him, which they hadn't planned on because since Willie wasn't in the game, they weren't that worried about Moore. Why would that be? Because in his career, Moore has never shown that he can be "the man". He just isn't that type of back.

The Steelers coaches went back to Parker because he is the Better Running Back. Bottom line. It worked too. 3-0 in the Playoffs.

OX1947
06-22-2009, 05:41 PM
arians is an idiot. forget the play calling, thats the least of it. Everytime he is interviewed, he has this doucheness about him that seems dumb.

HometownGal
06-22-2009, 06:55 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Rs53-MPsJaI/SK4qOPSLTgI/AAAAAAAAGqs/ee_zZovqgxY/s400/mortimer+snerd-1.jpg

Preacher
06-22-2009, 07:18 PM
So the Vikings AND Steelers know less about Melwelde Moore than you?

:rofl:

Now THAT is classic!

fansince'76
06-22-2009, 07:29 PM
And for that matter, Russell was a specialty back. Davenport was a specialty back. None of them, Parker included, were very attractive options to play every down. That's why I don't buy it when all the time, you hear Parker supporters say "What, would you rather have had Russell be the starter?" or "Oh yeah, if he sucks so bad, why didn't Davenport beat him out?" No. That's not the issue. If they were doing it right, Parker wouldn't be "competing" head-to-head with any of those guys per se; for the past couple of years, they'd all have been part of an effective system together. I don't know whether that falls on Arians or Tomlin or Parker or someone else, but it seems like one thing that could be fixed rather instantaneously with the backs we've got now.

And depending on who's in the formation on any given play, wouldn't that pretty much tip our hand automatically as to what type of play we were going to run, in turn fueling the gripes of people who bitch about Arians' "Pop Warner coach-like predictability" and other teams "knowing exactly what we're going to run?" Seems to me it would. :noidea:

tony hipchest
06-22-2009, 07:40 PM
Ladanian Tomlinson is the most talented RB in the NFL but the Chargers were more effective when Darren Sproles was playing (even if it had to do with LTs health). The Chargers were not afraid to go to Sproles whereas the Steelers stuck with Willie Parker even though he as ineffective. Why? .:doh:

what the HELL are you talking about?

1/11/09- SD vs. PIT

fast willie- 27 att/ 146 yds/ 5.4 ypc/ 2td (thats why)

sproles??- 11 att/ 15 yds/ 1.4 ypc/ 0 td

:busted:

so youre gonna call steelers dumb for starting willie but imply the chargers are brilliant?

maybe you'll apologize for sproles facing the toughest defense in the league.

or will you bring up his 62 yd td reception (which anyone who has been involved in these broken record, arians/willie argument knows is instantly tossed out as if it doesnt matter)?

tony hipchest
06-22-2009, 07:48 PM
And depending on who's in the formation on any given play, wouldn't that pretty much tip our hand automatically as to what type of play we were going to run, in turn fueling the gripes of people who bitch about Arians' "Pop Warner coach-like predictability" and other teams "knowing exactly what we're going to run?" Seems to me it would. :noidea:yep, this weak argument you point out is about the weakest of the chucklehead peanut gallery.

its football. 50/50 chance its either gonna be a run or pass. it doesnt take a genius to figure it out or an idiot to screw it up.

and if its a run play? 50/50 chance its gonna be either an interior run or off tackle/TE.

its not rocket science and there is no hocus pocus that can be used to trick the opposion all the time or to even keep them always guessing. its all guesswork and a big game of chess.

in the business of playcalling the great ones are probably only right 52%-54% of the time.

Preacher
06-22-2009, 07:56 PM
yep, this weak argument you point out is about the weakest of the chucklehead peanut gallery.

its football. 50/50 chance its either gonna be a run or pass. it doesnt take a genius to figure it out or an idiot to screw it up.

and if its a run play? 50/50 chance its gonna be either an interior run or off tackle/TE.

its not rocket science and there is no hocus pocus that can be used to trick the opposion all the time or to even keep them always guessing. its all guesswork and a big game of chess.

in the business of playcalling the great ones are probably only right 52%-54% of the time.

But but but... when we had bettis, we didn't have to fool them. We could run straight ahead every time because Bettis could carry 11 defensive players on his back. He was the Bus. We need that again. We need someone who will never be brought down in the backflied like Bettis. Someone who would ALWAYS get 3-5 yards.. EVERY TIME!!!!!

(Nevermind the 1 in 4 rushes where he would be stopped before hitting 3 yards).

:chuckle:

thumper
06-22-2009, 08:13 PM
I don't know, but effective use of personnel at RB has been my biggest gripe for years. I don't think they've gotten it right since Bettis retired.

Parker is a specialty back, and I think the problem is that key people don't recognize that because he puts up respectable yardage totals over the course of a whole season. However, mixed in with that are probably 100 plays a year that we throw away by having the wrong personnel for the situation, which is completely preventable. But by using him as the ONLY back, we're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. That's my frustration with him, anyway.

Don't get me wrong -- Moore is also a specialty back, just with a different set of skills. I happen to think those skills fit what we're trying to do on offense a little better, but it's not like he's going to win any MVP awards either.

And for that matter, Russell was a specialty back. Davenport was a specialty back. None of them, Parker included, were very attractive options to play every down. That's why I don't buy it when all the time, you hear Parker supporters say "What, would you rather have had Russell be the starter?" or "Oh yeah, if he sucks so bad, why didn't Davenport beat him out?" No. That's not the issue. If they were doing it right, Parker wouldn't be "competing" head-to-head with any of those guys per se; for the past couple of years, they'd all have been part of an effective system together. I don't know whether that falls on Arians or Tomlin or Parker or someone else, but it seems like one thing that could be fixed rather instantaneously with the backs we've got now.

:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::appla udit:

Preacher
06-22-2009, 08:19 PM
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::appla udit:

May I suggest you check out the responses first? Because the whole problem with it was succinctly pointed out by FS.

And depending on who's in the formation on any given play, wouldn't that pretty much tip our hand automatically as to what type of play we were going to run, in turn fueling the gripes of people who bitch about Arians' "Pop Warner coach-like predictability" and other teams "knowing exactly what we're going to run?" Seems to me it would. :noidea:

So Thumper, do you REALLY want to telecast our plays like that? Isn't that the problem you are condemning Arians of now?

Or is it that he isn't calling the type of predictable plays YOU want called...

or is it that you simply aren't happy unless you are complaining?

thumper
06-22-2009, 08:22 PM
This thread has had very little to do with "figuring out who was responsible for the mediocre offense" and more to do with just bashing a scapegopat without realizing that the issue is more complex than a generalization focusing on one variable, such as an OC.

I would also point you to Preacher's post #187 above..."Damned if you do, damned if you don't, damned even if you don't because they still think you do, and damned if you do, because they don't want you to."

Umm, here is what the thread was about: facing the fact that the 4th-worst rushing attack in the country needs to be addressed if we want a shot at another ring.

....he says the OL was only responsible for 19 sacks. They rest were due to TEs, RBs not picking up their assignments and WRs not running their hot routes.

OK, let's say that's true. Let's go with it, for the sake of argument.

Even if that is true, you can't tell me this OL is any good. Why? How about because they almost never open up any holes for the running game. Do you know where Pgh ranked (Pgh, the team who has the major identity of being a rushing team) for rushing in the NFL?

23rd....out of 32. I'd think, a team that emphasized the rush as the Steelers do, to be at least 16th.

And their average per rush? A more telling stat on where you really rate as a rushing attack? 3.7. Only two teams had a worse average rushing per attempt in the entire NFL. TWO! And it's not as if there isn't a BIG difference between the quality rushing teams and how pathetic Pgh was. NYG had a FIVE yard AVERAGE per RUSH. Broncos and Pathers had a 4.8. Can you even imagine how dominant this team would be with an above 4.5 avg. per rush?

Yea, we won a Super Bowl. But no one can tell me there isn't lots of room for improvement in our rushing game, and much of that is with the OL. Oh, and did I mention play calling? That's another HUGE reason for such an anemic rushing game.

I have faith that Tomlin knows they need to become a much better rushing game. Please, God, please make that true. They won't win another ring with that lame of a rushing attack. It won't happen again.

thumper
06-22-2009, 08:42 PM
May I suggest you check out the responses first? Because the whole problem with it was succinctly pointed out by FS.



So Thumper, do you REALLY want to telecast our plays like that? Isn't that the problem you are condemning Arians of now?

Or is it that he isn't calling the type of predictable plays YOU want called...

or is it that you simply aren't happy unless you are complaining?

Boy, that seems awfully close to ad hominem attacks if I didn't know better. Why attack me just because I have accurately asserted that we have the 4th worst ypc rushing attack in the entire NFL - and from a team that LIVES to rush the football? But all I get back is name calling and attacks. Wow.

tony hipchest
06-22-2009, 08:58 PM
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::appla udit:

i dont know exactly what you are applauding thumpy but i can guess it is this-

I don't know, but effective use of personnel at RB has been my biggest gripe for years. I don't think they've gotten it right since Bettis retired.

Parker is a specialty back, and I think the problem is that key people don't recognize that because he puts up respectable yardage totals over the course of a whole season. However, mixed in with that are probably 100 plays a year that we throw away by having the wrong personnel for the situation, which is completely preventable. But by using him as the ONLY back, we're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. That's my frustration with him, anyway.



the entire problem with this argument is trying to seperate football from football.

follow along...

an adequate to above average qb will hit on 60-65% of his passes. a record setter in completion percentage will hit on 70% of his throws.

what that means is if the average is 400 passes per year even the best qb is missing on 120 throws (which in your words are plays that are thrown away).

so assuming a great balanced offense where the passing yardage usually doubles rushing (say a 4000 yd passer who has 2 backs that run for 1500, and 500 yds respectively) whay havent ALL these dumbassed o-coordinators in the league abandoned the run altogether?

because it simply doesnt function that way.

so willie getting stuffed at the line 100 times is about as efficient to the team as a 65% passer is.

Preacher
06-22-2009, 09:02 PM
Naah...

I'm not sitting across the room with buddies that know me and the way I debate...

Don't mean to offend anyone.

fansince'76
06-22-2009, 09:05 PM
But but but... when we had bettis, we didn't have to fool them. We could run straight ahead every time because Bettis could carry 11 defensive players on his back. He was the Bus. We need that again. We need someone who will never be brought down in the backflied like Bettis. Someone who would ALWAYS get 3-5 yards.. EVERY TIME!!!!!

(Nevermind the 1 in 4 rushes where he would be stopped before hitting 3 yards).

:chuckle:

....or the 4 AFCCG losses at home largely as a result of trying to "impose our will" on the opposition in this exact manner.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-22-2009, 09:30 PM
....or the 4 AFCCG losses at home largely as a result of trying to "impose our will" on the opposition in this exact manner.

This is one arguement that I can never agree with.

You can more accurately blame mistakes for most of those losses. Turnovers vs. Denver, Special teams TD's vs the Patriots one year, inability to defend the pass and Ben throwing picks in 2004 and of course...........3 more yards vs San Diego.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with being a physical running team. It allows for more play action, gives receivers more room to run, eats up clock, time of possession and any O lineman will tell you they love to run block more than pass block.

fansince'76
06-22-2009, 09:43 PM
You can more accurately blame mistakes for most of those losses. Turnovers vs. Denver, Special teams TD's vs the Patriots one year, inability to defend the pass and Ben throwing picks in 2004 and of course...........3 more yards vs San Diego.

Not to mention trailing 3-0 and getting completely stuffed on 4th-and-1 on the other team's 40-yard line and then to add insult to injury, fumbling the ball away on the same play, only to have even more salt rubbed in the wound by having to watch the other team come out and go up 10-0 on the very next play with a 60-yard bomb. I agree that there's nothing wrong with having a physical running game, unless it's ALL you have and your offense is a one-trick pony largely because of it.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 10:41 PM
:doh:

what the HELL are you talking about?

1/11/09- SD vs. PIT

fast willie- 27 att/ 146 yds/ 5.4 ypc/ 2td (thats why)

sproles??- 11 att/ 15 yds/ 1.4 ypc/ 0 td

:busted:

so youre gonna call steelers dumb for starting willie but imply the chargers are brilliant?

maybe you'll apologize for sproles facing the toughest defense in the league.

or will you bring up his 62 yd td reception (which anyone who has been involved in these broken record, arians/willie argument knows is instantly tossed out as if it doesnt matter)? It is intellectually dishonest to take one game, and Willie Parkers best game (at 2X his season yds/gm average) and use that as justification for decisions that last the season. So if thats the best you got....

And second you did point out that Sproles did have 91 yards receiving, and its a moot point since LT was too hurt to play at that point.

(A good follow up question might be if fans wonder if LT is slowing down due to age or was simply hurt and will be back to his old self this season. I know that the trend in WPs ypc over the past 4 years speaks pretty loudly to me.)

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-22-2009, 10:42 PM
i dont know exactly what you are applauding thumpy but i can guess it is this-



the entire problem with this argument is trying to seperate football from football.

follow along...

an adequate to above average qb will hit on 60-65% of his passes. a record setter in completion percentage will hit on 70% of his throws.

what that means is if the average is 400 passes per year even the best qb is missing on 120 throws (which in your words are plays that are thrown away).

so assuming a great balanced offense where the passing yardage usually doubles rushing (say a 4000 yd passer who has 2 backs that run for 1500, and 500 yds respectively) whay havent ALL these dumbassed o-coordinators in the league abandoned the run altogether?

because it simply doesnt function that way.

so willie getting stuffed at the line 100 times is about as efficient to the team as a 65% passer is. This is completely wrong.

Look up the statistic Yards per attempt and see the correlation it has with winning. An incomplete pass is not even remotely the same thing as a rushing attempt for <2 yards.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-22-2009, 10:52 PM
:tt02:It is intellectually dishonest to take one game, and Willie Parkers best game (at 2X his season yds/gm average) and use that as justification for decisions that last the season.

Actually, its probably more intellectually dishonest to base your case upon stats gleaned from footballoutsiders.com, then tell others they should look at the unbiased statistics on that site..............only to bail on that supporting information when you find out Ben Roethlisberger is the #24 QB in the league based on stats.

I am guessing that you never played football with pads on before. That is fine. But I think your attempts to understand and argue a point based on stats alone and no personal experience of football and talent evaluation are hugely flawed.

I have never flown an airplane and it appears to me that pilots do nothing 95% of the time. But I don't pretend to know what it is that they do. In essence, you are attempting to use stats to prove you know something about evaluating RB's, where it is clear that you do not.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-22-2009, 10:54 PM
Not to mention trailing 3-0 and getting completely stuffed on 4th-and-1 on the other team's 40-yard line and then to add insult to injury, fumbling the ball away on the same play, only to have even more salt rubbed in the wound by having to watch the other team come out and go up 10-0 on the very next play with a 60-yard bomb. I agree that there's nothing wrong with having a physical running game, unless it's ALL you have and your offense is a one-trick pony largely because of it.

I know it still stings '76 !!! But, just back away from the keyboard, take a deep breath and count to 6 !!! One time for each super bowl ring.

It works for me every time I see O Donnell throw that pick to Larry Brown :banging:

tony hipchest
06-22-2009, 11:01 PM
only to have even more salt rubbed in the wound by having to watch the other team come out and go up 10-0 on the very next play with a 60-yard bomb.

...which clearly falls on cowher and lebeau. although they are 2 potential HOF coaches, just about everyone knows that when a team gets a freebie TO within the 40 yardlines the first thing they are gonna do is take a freebie shot downfield or for the endzone.

sometimes young players (troy, ben, anthony smith) get a coach burnt. other times they make a coach into a hero (ben vs. indy - the tackle).

its not against conventional wisdom to dance with what brought you and from 96-04 cowher did exactly that.

thats the fanbase we live in, fansince.... an arians is always the scapegoat, whereas a legend like lebeau is always beyond reproach. (see current ST coach of the year bobby april= scapegoat despite cowher being the ST guru)

fansince'76
06-22-2009, 11:10 PM
I know it still stings '76 !!! But, just back away from the keyboard, take a deep breath and count to 6 !!! One time for each super bowl ring.

It works for me every time I see O Donnell throw that pick to Larry Brown :banging:

You're right, and my last 2 posts were pretty unfair. We didn't lose those games because of our power running game, we lost because we usually didn't have a good enough passing game to complement it.

fansince'76
06-22-2009, 11:11 PM
...which clearly falls on cowher and lebeau. although they are 2 potential HOF coaches, just about everyone knows that when a team gets a freebie TO within the 40 yardlines the first thing they are gonna do is take a freebie shot downfield or for the endzone.

Yep, worst game of that season for our D. :banging:

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-23-2009, 12:15 AM
:tt02:

Actually, its probably more intellectually dishonest to base your case upon stats gleaned from footballoutsiders.com, then tell others they should look at the unbiased statistics on that site..............only to bail on that supporting information when you find out Ben Roethlisberger is the #24 QB in the league based on stats.

I am guessing that you never played football with pads on before. That is fine. But I think your attempts to understand and argue a point based on stats alone and no personal experience of football and talent evaluation are hugely flawed.

I have never flown an airplane and it appears to me that pilots do nothing 95% of the time. But I don't pretend to know what it is that they do. In essence, you are attempting to use stats to prove you know something about evaluating RB's, where it is clear that you do not.

Once again, let me explain some non-football related stuff to you. There are statistics and then there is statistical analysis, which is some attempt to add a filter to statistics. Statistics are facts, statistical analysis is an educated opinion about those facts. You are also incorrect in suggesting that I would have suggested that Football Outsiders is unbiased, as statistical analysis is, by definition, biased.

1) I did not glean any stats from Footballoutsiders as my evidence. I presented the raw statistics, and since they all showed Moore>Parker, many suggested that Parkers statistical shortcomings were due to factors like down-and-distance, opponent, etc. Only then did I point to Football Outsiders since that is exactly what they measure for.

Even though Football Outsiders is well respected, I have no problem leaving their analysis out of it.

So I will go back to the raw statistics and ask you if you can provide any filter or analysis of them that would explain how it is Moore being more productive than Parker is an anomaly.

2) You guessed that I have never played football in pads. And unsurprisingly, you would have guessed wrong.

3) As for comparing someone who played football, or even someone who has closely watched football for years, to someone pretending to know something about aviation because they flew in a plain is beyond a stretch.

4) As for Football Outsiders....here is my $.02.

I do not think that it is possible for Football Outsiders, or any statistical analysis, to accurately rate QBs. Big Ben for example, makes DL miss, miraculously escapes tackles, and throws a 10 yard pass....and all that shows up via any statistic is a 10 yard pass. Often, throwing an incomplete pass is a great, smart play for a QB. QB has so many intangibles that are impossible to examine via statistics that it is unique.

WRs also have unique circumstances that make it difficult to gauge (what defense is being played, blitzing/hot reads, is the throw catchable, etc)

As for RBs, I believe its a different story. When they carry the ball with a sample size of >100 carries, there are very tangible results that can be compared and I think that Football Outsiders does a pretty good hob with their RB rankings.

Since you disagree...no problem. Go back to the raw stats. Then please explain.

tony hipchest
06-23-2009, 12:24 AM
This is completely wrong.

Look up the statistic Yards per attempt and see the correlation it has with winning. An incomplete pass is not even remotely the same thing as a rushing attempt for <2 yards.what does having the best defense stomping a mudhole in your teams ass and playing "ball control" have to do with winning?

do your stats have a calculation for that?

2 different coaches have WON a sb with this same team and philosophy. do your stats calculate for that?

dont talk to me about winning, skinfan. the steelers are the winningest franchise in the nfl since chuck noll.

thats the only stats that REALLY matters. explain those "raw stats" please.

:coffee:

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-23-2009, 01:49 AM
2) You guessed that I have never played football in pads. And unsurprisingly, you would have guessed wrong.

3) As for comparing someone who played football, or even someone who has closely watched football for years, to someone pretending to know something about aviation because they flew in a plain is beyond a stretch.

Since you disagree...no problem. Go back to the raw stats. Then please explain.

First, I am surprised that if you ever played the game that you find it so difficult to understand that Parker is a starting RB and Moore is a complimentary/3rd down back. :noidea: You should know by experience that trying to tackle a player like FWP is much more difficult than a guy like MM.

Second, the comparison of watching somebody fly a plane, even though you have never done it......to watching and evaluating football , even though you have never done it, is not that much of a stretch. Both are skills that are more easily misunderstood without experience.

Finally, I don't need to goto any more raw stats. I have a business degree and have taken a few stats courses. In fact one of the first things my intro stats Professor told us is "statistics can be manipulated" and that " statistically, the average human being has 1 breast and 1 testicle".

If you went back to the 80's when internet wasnt available for fantasy freaks to overanalyze statistics, you could probably tell that Chuck Muncie was the better feature back, while James Brooks was the complimtary/3rd down back.

UltimateFootballNetwork
06-23-2009, 04:06 AM
what does having the best defense stomping a mudhole in your teams ass and playing "ball control" have to do with winning?

do your stats have a calculation for that?

2 different coaches have WON a sb with this same team and philosophy. do your stats calculate for that?

dont talk to me about winning, skinfan. the steelers are the winningest franchise in the nfl since chuck noll.

thats the only stats that REALLY matters. explain those "raw stats" please.

:coffee: Are you done beating your chest? Does that change the fact that the Steelers run game was a problem and the Super Bowl was won in spite of it?

Did I ever suggest the Steelers were anything other than the winningest franchise? The Rooneys run a great franchise and thats one of the reasons I like to learn from it.

I dont beat my chest. Even though I am a fan, I can objectively see that Dan Snyder sucks and we wont win anything until he stops playing with his toy.