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View Full Version : Democrats Strike Deal on Massive Climate Bill


Fire Haley
06-23-2009, 10:28 PM
This one has got to be stopped or we really are doomed.

Household Energy Tax Vote this Week!

The House is expected to take up the legislation on Friday, the first time the chamber will vote on a bill that would impose nationwide limits on the gases blamed for global warming emitted from power plants, factories and automobiles.

The breakthrough came hours after President Obama at a news conference called on the House to pass the legislation, and a new EPA analysis showed that it would raise household energy costs on average only an extra $80 to $111 a year.

"It is legislation that will finally spark a clean energy transformation that will reduce our dependence on foreign oil and confront the carbon pollution that threatens our planet," Obama said. "And that is why I urge members of the House to come together and pass it."

The House bill would require factories, refineries and power plants to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide, the leading compound linked to global warming, and six other greenhouse gases by roughly 80 percent by midcentury and hasten the nation's energy shift away from fossil fuels by putting a price on carbon dioxide releases.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/23/democrats-strike-deal-massive-climate/

------------------------------------------

Bullcrap!!! Lying bastards!

Be prepared to pay double or triple a month for electricityy, and welcome to gas rationing.

You'll only get what the state thinks you “need.”



-It will raise your household electricity rates by 90 percent, gasoline by 74 percent, and residential natural gas prices by 55 percent by 2035, after adjusting for inflation.

-It imposes an annual burden of $144.8 billion per year on U.S. households, and it will reduce household earnings by a projected $37.8 billion.

-It will further cut U.S. employment levels by 965,000 jobs by reducing economic output by $136 billion per year-this translates to a $1,145 increase in energy costs per American household.

-It will force low-income households to disproportionately bear the across-the-board energy cost increase, as a larger percentage of the poor's income goes toward energy costs, as opposed to wealthier households.

-It sets the stage to effectively kill the coal industry as it will be taxed so heavily, it will not be able to sustain itself


If enacted, H.R. 2454 would be the biggest government takeover of the economy since the Second World War, which is the last time energy, food, and other basic commodities were rationed.

http://capwiz.com/eagleforum/issues/alert/?alertid=13612686&queueid=[capwiz:queue_id]

The Patriot
06-23-2009, 10:32 PM
Should we be angry?

tony hipchest
06-23-2009, 10:46 PM
"midcentury"???

those who arent on the Mothership by then are doomed regardless of the outcome of this bill.

Fire Haley
06-23-2009, 10:57 PM
House members phone numbers

http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/mcapdir.html

Capitol Switchboard: 202-224-3121


Call and give them hell. No more taxes!

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
06-23-2009, 11:57 PM
We are in freaking BIG trouble.

hindes204
06-24-2009, 12:38 AM
They wanted "change".....thats what they're gonna get

Preacher
06-24-2009, 01:00 AM
Great. More legislation based on shoddy science.

Fire Haley
06-24-2009, 05:52 AM
The US government is about to declare CO2 a dangerous pollutant.

Next up, water and oxygen?

Carbon dioxide is the basis of the whole natural energy cycle for life on the planet. Without sufficient carbon dioxide plants stop photosynthesis.
Without plants, the whole chain breaks down, and we all die.

This is insane. Taxing air.

GBMelBlount
06-24-2009, 06:03 AM
This is insane. Taxing air.

Our government is far more corrupt than the greedy capitalists they are ostensibly protecting us from.

But why should we care as long as they are protecting us from the greedy capitalists and giving us our fair share of the government looting, right? :thumbsup:

"Keep your eye on the greedy capitalists folks, we're here to protect you because we really care about you and we know what's best for you....." - Big Brother :chuckle:

GBMelBlount
06-24-2009, 06:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer View Post

This is insane. Taxing air.

If argon was the primary result of economic activity, then argon would be the cause of global warming......

"Folks, our government sponsored scientists have just determined that money is the cause of global warming....in an effort to save the planet we will be forced to confiscate all of your money."

Fire Haley
06-24-2009, 06:52 AM
Should we be angry?

Let's review...

White House Admits Obama Energy Tax Will Increase Average Electric Bill By $1800 Per Year

President Obama’s energy tax plan -- a version of the failed European “cap and trade” global warming fiasco -- may cost families $1,800 yearly in higher utility bills, far exceeding his promised $800 a year tax cut for 95% of Americans.

While campaigning, Obama admitted that his energy plan would cause electric bills to “skyrocket.”

http://www.examiner.com/x-2304-DC-Republican-Examiner~y2009m3d20-White-House-Admits-Obama-Energy-Tax-Will-Increase-Average-Electric-Bill-By-1800-Per-Year


You want to pay an extra $100 a month or more for electricity?

And not just the power you use at home. Business will pay and pass it along to the consumer, driving up the cost of goods and services on everything. So you think that it is OK to pay higher prices for everything?

And you believe that this would be good for our economy?

This will destroy the coal industry and power companies will have you pay for it.
Biggest Tax Increase in the History of the World. Write that down.

This is going to be the biggest disaster to ever hit our country and will completely destroy any remaining economy we might have.

Might as well close every manufacturing plant in the US.
China and India will provide all the things we need.

A socialist's wet dream.

revefsreleets
06-24-2009, 08:17 AM
Water vapor is next, as it is compromises about 97% of greenhouse gas. Cow farts, too, as I believe biological emissions far outweigh humans contributions.

How long until we have to yell, "Cohaagen, give these people aiah!"

This will never come about, because the "science" behind it won't stand up to the litmus test of real, unbiased scientific scrutiny.

MACH1
06-24-2009, 08:19 AM
Should we be angry?

Not if you don't mind paying triple for your power bill if that thing pass's.

Fire Haley
06-24-2009, 08:20 AM
I wonder if the current health care ‘debate’ is just misdirection to draw attention away from this monstrosity.

If the people really knew about this Marxist wacko cap and tax bill, they would be raising hell in the streets.

Congress is going to be voting on it in a couple of days.

MACH1
06-24-2009, 08:22 AM
Let's review...

White House Admits Obama Energy Tax Will Increase Average Electric Bill By $1800 Per Year

President Obama’s energy tax plan -- a version of the failed European “cap and trade” global warming fiasco -- may cost families $1,800 yearly in higher utility bills, far exceeding his promised $800 a year tax cut for 95% of Americans.

While campaigning, Obama admitted that his energy plan would cause electric bills to “skyrocket.”

http://www.examiner.com/x-2304-DC-Republican-Examiner~y2009m3d20-White-House-Admits-Obama-Energy-Tax-Will-Increase-Average-Electric-Bill-By-1800-Per-Year


You want to pay an extra $100 a month or more for electricity?

And not just the power you use at home. Business will pay and pass it along to the consumer, driving up the cost of goods and services on everything. So you think that it is OK to pay higher prices for everything?

And you believe that this would be good for our economy?

This will destroy the coal industry and power companies will have you pay for it.
Biggest Tax Increase in the History of the World. Write that down.

This is going to be the biggest disaster to ever hit our country and will completely destroy any remaining economy we might have.

Might as well close every manufacturing plant in the US.
China and India will provide all the things we need.

A socialist's wet dream.

Power companies will pass it along to the consumers.

SteelersinCA
06-24-2009, 08:48 AM
Don't forget Cheerios are dangerous too!!! :chuckle:

Fire Haley
06-24-2009, 08:57 AM
I called, I asked them how will more taxes change the weather. They hung up.

But don't worry, China and India won't have to pay, because they aren't as stupid as we are by electing these socialist retards.

Fire Haley
06-24-2009, 09:33 AM
They wanted "change".....thats what they're gonna get


Yeah - $8 a gallon gas - welcome to the United States of France

Indo
06-24-2009, 12:46 PM
Thomas Jefferson once said that there should be a Revolution every 20 years.

Mark my words, my friends, It is Coming.

Hammer Of The GODS
06-24-2009, 02:27 PM
IT MAKES NO SENSE TO IMPLEMENT THIS BULLSHYTE AT A TIME WHEN THE COUNTRY IS REELING FROM AN ECONOMY THAT IS ON LIFE SUPPORT!

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


PS........ What is it gonna take for you botard obuma slurping libs to admit that obuma was a HUGE MISTAKE and that the liberal way of thinking is absurdity to the nth degree?



.

Fire Haley
06-24-2009, 02:38 PM
This will never come about, because the "science" behind it won't stand up to the litmus test of real, unbiased scientific scrutiny.

It's a sell-out.

House Dems Improve Climate Bill's Chances for Floor Win With Deal on Ag Issues

House Democrats resolved the last major sticking points between farm state members and sponsors of the comprehensive global warming and energy bill last night, clearing the way for a historic floor vote as early as Friday.

"We have an agreement finally after all these days," Agriculture Chairman Collin Peterson (D-Minn.) told reporters. "We have something that I think works for agriculture. We still have a couple little areas that may get resolved down the line. But we've come to an agreement."

Peterson said that he planned to vote for the House climate bill -- and bring dozens of rural lawmakers with him -- after Energy and Commerce Chairman Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) agreed to make several concessions on issues that had drawn the ire of farm state members.

http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/06/24/24climatewire-house-dems-improve-climate-bills-chances-for-17335.html

----------------------------------------

They are ignoring the science - this is "social engineering' full-speed ahead, damn the facts.

The Bill is over a 1000 pages long - no one will even read it all.



The climate change e-mails EPA doesn’t want you to see

The Competitive Enterprise Institute has obtained internal EPA e-mails that show the agency willfully and recklessly disregarded scientific data that undermined the bureaucracy’s global warming zealotry.

This information is especially relevant as Congress rushes to pass the cap-and-trade nightmare on Friday.

-----snip----

The email notes the quantity of peer-reviewed references in the study, and defends its inclusion of new research as well. It states Mr. Carlin’s view that “the critical attribute of good science is its correspondence to observable data rather than where it appears in the technical literature.” It goes on to point out that the new studies “explain much of the observational data that have been collected which cannot be explained by the IPCC models.”

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/24/the-climate-change-e-mails-epa-doesnt-want-you-to-see/

revefsreleets
06-24-2009, 03:25 PM
The IPCC lost ALL credibility before it even had any. The very first report was altered, and it's been a snowjob ever since...

43Hitman
06-24-2009, 03:37 PM
This is starting to become scary..Almost as if...Oh never mind...Where is my tin hat. Seriously though, this is really, really bad news. Good thing I have been stock piling food, water and ammunition. My garden is doing great too.

Dino 6 Rings
06-24-2009, 04:15 PM
Is this a joke or something?

Fire Haley
06-24-2009, 04:30 PM
The press isnt even covering this... I'm afraid they are going to push this through before most people even hear about it.




Is this a joke?

Yeah - the joke is on us.

Call your Congresscritter, let them know that YOU know. Stop this insanity.




http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/mcapdir.html

http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW_by_State.shtml#fl

MACH1
06-24-2009, 05:25 PM
This is starting to become scary..Almost as if...Oh never mind...Where is my tin hat. Seriously though, this is really, really bad news. Good thing I have been stock piling food, water and ammunition. My garden is doing great too.

The enemy within!

Seriously its like he's trying to destroy this country.

SteelCityMan786
06-24-2009, 05:29 PM
Funny part is life is based around what element????? You guessed it, it's Carbon. In fact Plants release CO2 in the air. Give me a break congress. It's not hazardous towards our health.

drewcary
06-24-2009, 05:46 PM
I wonder id the foreign born Marxist Muslim who stole the election will put this bill on line so that the people can review it for five days. You know, like he promised he would for every bill that came to him. It’s ok though. All the lazy union drunks and drug profanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofa nityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityf ilter are being well taken care of.

Fire Haley
06-24-2009, 05:59 PM
Let's be clear about this - this Bill is a tax scheme to redistribute income and wealth.

From your pocket to the govt. - YOU will be paying, not the "polluters".

It'll be the biggest boondoggle since the income tax was invented.

This isn't about the environment - it's about money and power.

fansince'76
06-24-2009, 06:17 PM
I called, I asked them how will more taxes change the weather. They hung up.

But don't worry, China and India won't have to pay, because they aren't as stupid as we are by electing these socialist retards.

The Chinese are let off the hook because they are supposedly a "developing country" and their people aren't afforded the opportunity to elect anybody anyway and India is also let off the hook because they're "developing."

Great news - I'm closing on a new house in a little more than 3 weeks. Lousy news - I'm not going to be able to afford to turn on the lights or cool it in the summer.

xXTheSteelKingsXx
06-24-2009, 07:46 PM
Funny part is life is based around what element????? You guessed it, it's Carbon. In fact Plants release CO2 in the air. Give me a break congress. It's not hazardous towards our health.

Plants release O2 not Carbon Dioxide.

Fire Haley
06-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Great news - I'm closing on a new house in a little more than 3 weeks. Lousy news - I'm not going to be able to afford to turn on the lights or cool it in the summer.

Here's the kicker - depends on where you live - on how much it will affect you.

Some pigs are more equal than others

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html



"The greatest inequities are geographic and would be imposed on the parts of the U.S. that rely most on manufacturing or fossil fuels -- particularly coal, which generates most power in the Midwest, Southern and Plains states.

It's no coincidence that the liberals most invested in cap and trade -- Barbara Boxer, Henry Waxman, Ed Markey -- come from California or the Northeast.

Coal provides more than half of U.S. electricity, and 25 states get more than 50% of their electricity from conventional coal-fired generation.
In Ohio, it totals 86%, according to the Energy Information Administration.

Ratepayers in Indiana (94%), Missouri (85%), New Mexico (80%), Pennsylvania (56%), West Virginia (98%) and Wyoming (95%) are going to get soaked.

Another way to think about it is in terms of per capita greenhouse-gas emissions. California is the No. 2 carbon emitter in the country but also has a large economy and population. So the average Californian only had a carbon footprint of about 12 tons of CO2-equivalent in 2005, according to the World Resource Institute's Climate Analysis Indicators, which integrates all government data. The situation is very different in Wyoming and North Dakota -- paging Senators Mike Enzi and Kent Conrad -- where every person was responsible for 154 and 95 tons, respectively. See the nearby chart for cap and trade's biggest state winners and losers."

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AJ130_3whopa_NS_20090308171239.gif

fansince'76
06-24-2009, 08:36 PM
Here's the kicker - depends on where you live - on how much it will affect you.

I live in Colorado - more than 70% of our electricity comes from coal-fired power plants. I'm effed.

Fire Haley
06-25-2009, 06:14 AM
I've had enough - I'm turning hippie - screw the corporations


Cap and Trade: A Handout for Corporations and a Huge Tax on Consumers

How Big Is the Tax?

The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis (CDA) found that, after adjusting for inflation, the government would collect $5.7 trillion in tax revenue between 2012 and 2035. CDA's economic analysis found that, by 2035, the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade legislation would also:

Raise electricity rates 90 percent after adjusting for inflation;
Raise inflation-adjusted gasoline prices by 58 percent;
Raise residential natural gas prices by 55 percent; and
Raise an average family's annual energy bill by $1,241

But the $1,241 annual energy bill is just the direct increase in energy prices that consumers face. As energy prices increase, the cost of making products becomes more expensive. Businesses will pass the higher costs of operating onto the consumer, which will be reflected in the higher prices Americans pay for products.

Higher energy prices also result in a slower economy, which means less production, higher unemployment, and reduced income. As the higher production costs ripple through the economy, household pocketbooks get hit again and again

Where Does the Tax Revenue Go?

In order to get the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill through the House Energy and Commerce Committee, Members promised generous handouts for various industries and special interests. President Obama's budget proposal suggested a 100 percent auction of the emission allowances, forcing companies to bid on the right to emit. Businesses, knowing very well this would impose a severe cost on their bottom line, sent their lobbyists to Washington to protect them. And it worked.

About 85 percent of the allowances have been promised for free. The biggest winners are the electric utilities, which get 35 percent of the allowances. Some energy-intensive manufacturers also made out well. So only 15 percent of the allowances will be auctioned, at least in the initial phase of the bill, and even that may get promised away as the bill moves forward. Eventually the percentage of allowances given to industry declines in future years, and the government auctions them off to the highest bidder.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/wm2476.cfm

revefsreleets
06-25-2009, 08:09 AM
The silver lining?

The GOP starts taking things back towards reality in the mid-terms, and we strike this piece of garbage legislation down after the GOP takes back the WH in 2012.

Dino 6 Rings
06-25-2009, 08:29 AM
The silver lining?

The GOP starts taking things back towards reality in the mid-terms, and we strike this piece of garbage legislation down after the GOP takes back the WH in 2012.


Actually, the reason the far left of the Democratic Party is trying to push through as much huge bills as they can as fast as they can is because the writing is on the wall for the party out of power to take seats in the first mid term election of a new president. Happens almost every time.

GOP will recover quite a few seats in 2010 and will be able to stomp most of these gigantic spending bills.

How much money are we at proposed in spending already? 12 Trillion?
that's, 12,000,000,000,000.00 Dollars. That's my grandkids tax dollars, not even mine.

Fire Haley
06-25-2009, 09:06 AM
Finally hearing some good news - the Dems are 18 votes short with 24 hrs to go,.

Fight back!

"There is no question that the cap and trade bill will cost millions of jobs and it is pretty evident, I think now, given the word that we are hearing that the other side has 190 votes at this point, far short of that which are needed to pass this bill," said House Minority Whip Eric Cantor, R-Virginia.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/24/house-democrats-unsure-of-global-warming-bills-passage/

Dino 6 Rings
06-25-2009, 12:40 PM
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/24193.html

Al Gore not coming to D.C.

Former Vice President Al Gore canceled plans to fly to Washington for a news conference with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Thursday, and instead was working the phones from Tennessee to help push a landmark climate bill to passage.


Friday's vote on the measure is expected to be close, but multiple sources on both sides of the aisle say they're confident that the bill will pass — with some Republican votes — following a deal between House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman and Agriculture Committee Chairman Collin Peterson.


"It's a question of what was energy efficient for the vice president," Pelosi said of the decision to keep Gore in Tennessee. "We were narrowing the list of the undecideds. We had a great narrowing of the undecideds."


The speaker, President Barack Obama and White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel were all telephoning undecided or wavering House members in both parties.


As part of their efforts, Obama added a last-minute Rose Garden event in which he was to make "brief remarks on the importance of passing a historic energy bill that will create new jobs and reduce our dependence on foreign oil."


The American Clean Energy and Security Act, better known as the Waxman-Markey bill, would cut greenhouse-gas while promoting renewable energy and energy efficiency.


The measure, which is likely to have a tough go in the Senate, is a linchpin of Obama's first-year agenda. A victory would give the White House momentum going into a vote on health care later this summer.


Pelosi asked Gore to cancel last night saying she would prefer to have him on the ground making calls "not in the air for five and a half hours," according to an aide.


Gore, who has continued to make the climate crisis his signature issue, was to hold a press availability with House leaders and committee chairs at 2 p.m. in the Rayburn Room of the Capitol.


The speaker's office sent this notification to reporters Thursday morning:


"As the list of undecided Members narrowed, the Speaker thought it was unnecessary to impose on the Vice President's schedule to travel to Washington, and instead to continue coordinating efforts from Tennessee," spokesman Drew Hammill said in an e-mail.


Gore, who was coming at the invitation of the speaker, was going to make the case for strong action one of the President's top priorities — energy and global warming — without delay. He supports the House bill as the way to cut pollution, make dramatic increases in using energy efficiently, and increase use of renewable energy, which will boost jobs and improve our national security.


Earlier this week, Gore held a conference call to mobilize more than 10,000 of his Repower America grassroots activists.



http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/24193.html#ixzz0JSsMCWQo&D

Dino 6 Rings
06-25-2009, 12:41 PM
This is actually good news. Al is avoiding coming to Washington because if he does, and this bill fails, he'll look like a toolbag. So he's "working the phones" instead.

Think this thing is going to be killed.

Fire Haley
06-25-2009, 01:13 PM
ha ha!


Gore "too toxic" for battleground state Democrats to appear with.

UPDATE: NRCC Communications Director Ken Spain sends out this comment on the subject: "How is a Democrat sitting in a swing district going to tell their constituents with a straight face that they were undecided on whether or not to support a national energy tax until Al Gore or Nancy Pelosi convinced them it was the right thing to do? The cast of characters forcing this vote are putting dozens of Democrat House members into a position they won’t be able to defend come 2010."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/2009/06/why_did_gore_cancel.html

Indo
06-25-2009, 01:29 PM
The enemy within!

Seriously its like he's trying to destroy this country.

No.
He is SUCCEEDING at destroying this country

Fire Haley
06-25-2009, 02:21 PM
I live in Colorado.

I'm screwed too

http://www.theminorityreportblog.com/system/files/CBOenergymap.jpg

http://www.theminorityreportblog.com/story/steve_foley/2009/06/23/most_states_lose_under_cap_n_trade_cbo_interactive _map

revefsreleets
06-25-2009, 02:26 PM
That is a KILLER point. When this lump of shit bill faces real scrutiny in the mid-terms, any politico looking to get re-elected who voted for it is going to have a real hard time 'splainin this one.

It comes down to any state that close will swing to the GOP, and all the Republican candidate will have to do is show a "yeah" vote on this POS by the incumbent and it's game over.

Fire Haley
06-25-2009, 03:17 PM
we strike this piece of garbage legislation down after the GOP takes back the WH in 2012.

What? Let them win? No way.

Never back down

Once something like this gets passed it only gets worse, it never goes away.

Fight them now, every step of the way.


It will be the biggest tax increase in history.


The Cap and Tax Fiction

Democrats off-loading economics to pass climate change bill.

The whole point of cap and trade is to hike the price of electricity and gas so that Americans will use less. These higher prices will show up not just in electricity bills or at the gas station but in every manufactured good, from food to cars. Consumers will cut back on spending, which in turn will cut back on production, which results in fewer jobs created or higher unemployment. Some companies will instead move their operations overseas, with the same result.

Americans should know that those Members who vote for this climate bill are voting for what is likely to be the biggest tax in American history. Even Democrats can't repeal that reality.


read the whole thing...


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124588837560750781.html

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
06-25-2009, 03:31 PM
I live in Alabama, looks like I am effed...

Fire Haley
06-26-2009, 08:50 AM
Tell your congresscritter he/she is voting on their own reelection. It's that simple.

Vote FOR it, vote yourself OUT of office next term.


Representatives by state and district

http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW_by_State.shtml


and their phone numbers

http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/mcapdir.html

Fire Haley
06-26-2009, 09:25 AM
I went to my Congressman's website - he has a poll up.

Quick Poll

Do you support the President's so-called "cap and trade" policy?

Yes: 1%

No: 99%

273 total votes

Dino 6 Rings
06-26-2009, 09:46 AM
The Climate Change Climate Change The number of skeptics is swelling everywhere.

Steve Fielding recently asked the Obama administration to reassure him on the science of man-made global warming. When the administration proved unhelpful, Mr. Fielding decided to vote against climate-change legislation.

If you haven't heard of this politician, it's because he's a member of the Australian Senate. As the U.S. House of Representatives prepares to pass a climate-change bill, the Australian Parliament is preparing to kill its own country's carbon-emissions scheme. Why? A growing number of Australian politicians, scientists and citizens once again doubt the science of human-caused global warming.

Among the many reasons President Barack Obama and the Democratic majority are so intent on quickly jamming a cap-and-trade system through Congress is because the global warming tide is again shifting. It turns out Al Gore and the United Nations (with an assist from the media), did a little too vociferous a job smearing anyone who disagreed with them as "deniers." The backlash has brought the scientific debate roaring back to life in Australia, Europe, Japan and even, if less reported, the U.S.

In April, the Polish Academy of Sciences published a document challenging man-made global warming. In the Czech Republic, where President Vaclav Klaus remains a leading skeptic, today only 11% of the population believes humans play a role. In France, President Nicolas Sarkozy wants to tap Claude Allegre to lead the country's new ministry of industry and innovation. Twenty years ago Mr. Allegre was among the first to trill about man-made global warming, but the geochemist has since recanted. New Zealand last year elected a new government, which immediately suspended the country's weeks-old cap-and-trade program.

The number of skeptics, far from shrinking, is swelling. Oklahoma Sen. Jim Inhofe now counts more than 700 scientists who disagree with the U.N. -- 13 times the number who authored the U.N.'s 2007 climate summary for policymakers. Joanne Simpson, the world's first woman to receive a Ph.D. in meteorology, expressed relief upon her retirement last year that she was finally free to speak "frankly" of her nonbelief. Dr. Kiminori Itoh, a Japanese environmental physical chemist who contributed to a U.N. climate report, dubs man-made warming "the worst scientific scandal in history." Norway's Ivar Giaever, Nobel Prize winner for physics, decries it as the "new religion." A group of 54 noted physicists, led by Princeton's Will Happer, is demanding the American Physical Society revise its position that the science is settled. (Both Nature and Science magazines have refused to run the physicists' open letter.)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157449.html

revefsreleets
06-26-2009, 10:17 AM
We have a template of failure. Just ask Spain how many jobs this kind of crap creates (Their unemployment is at 18%).

http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/49163572.html

Spanish lesson on tilting at wind power

By George F. Will
Washington Post

Published on Friday, Jun 26, 2009

WASHINGTON: The Spanish professor is puzzled. Why, Gabriel Calzada wonders, is the U.S. president recommending that America emulate the Spanish model for creating ''green jobs'' in ''alternative energy'' even though Spain's unemployment rate is 18.1 percent — more than double the European Union average — partly because of spending on such jobs?

Calzada, 36, an economics professor at Universidad Rey Juan Carlos, has produced a report which, if true, is inconvenient for the Obama administration's green agenda, and for some budget assumptions that are dependent upon it.

Calzada says Spain's torrential spending — no other nation has so aggressively supported production of electricity from renewable sources — on wind farms and other forms of alternative energy has indeed created jobs. But Calzada's report concludes that they often are temporary and have received $752,000 to $800,000 each in subsidies — wind industry jobs cost even more, $1.4 million each. And each new job entails the loss of 2.2 other jobs that are either lost or not created in other industries because of the political allocation — sub-optimum in terms of economic efficiency — of capital. (European media regularly report ''eco-corruption'' leaving a ''footprint of sleaze'' — gaming the subsidy systems, profiteering from land sales for wind farms, etc.) Calzada says the creation of jobs in alternative energy has subtracted about 110,000 jobs from elsewhere in Spain's economy.

The president's press secretary, Robert Gibbs, was asked about the report's contention that the political diversion of capital into green jobs has cost Spain jobs. The White House transcript contained this exchange:

Gibbs: ''It seems weird that we're importing wind turbine parts from Spain in order to build — to meet renewable energy demand here if that were even remotely the case.''

Questioner: ''Is that a suggestion that his study is simply flat wrong?''

Gibbs: ''I haven't read the study, but I think, yes.''

Questioner: ''Well, then. (Laughter.)''

Actually, what is weird is this idea: A sobering report about Spain's experience must be false because otherwise the behavior of some American importers, seeking to cash in on the U.S. government's promotion of wind power, might be participating in an economically unproductive project.

It is true that Calzada has come to conclusions that he, as a libertarian, finds ideologically congenial. And his study was supported by a like-minded U.S. think tank (the Institute for Energy Research, for which this columnist has given a paid speech). Still, it is notable that, rather than try to refute his report, many Spanish critics have impugned his patriotism for faulting something for which Spain has been praised by Obama and others.

Judge for yourself: Calzada's report can be read at http://tinyurl.com/d7z9ye. And at http://tinyurl.com/ccoa5s you can find similar conclusions in ''Yellow Light on Green Jobs,'' a report by Republican Sen. Kit Bond, ranking member of the Subcommittee on Green Jobs and the New Economy.

What matters most, however, is not that reports such as Calzada's and the Republicans' are right in every particular. It is, however, hardly counterintuitive that politically driven investments are economically counterproductive. Indeed, environmentalists with the courage of their convictions should argue that the point of such investments is to subordinate market rationality to the higher agenda of planetary salvation.

Still, one can be agnostic about both reports while being dismayed by the frequency with which such findings are ignored simply because they question policies that are so invested with righteousness that methodical economic reasoning about their costs and benefits seems unimportant. When the president speaks of ''new green energy economies'' creating ''countless well-paying jobs,'' perhaps they really are countless, meaning incapable of being counted. (ZING!!!)

For fervent believers in governments' abilities to control the climate and in the urgent need for them to do so, believing is seeing: They see, through their ideological lenses, governments' green spending as always paying for itself. This is a free-lunch faith comparable to that of those few conservatives who believe that tax cuts always completely pay for themselves by stimulating compensating revenues from economic growth.

Windmills are iconic in the land of Don Quixote, whose tilting at them became emblematic of comic futility. Spain's new windmills are neither amusing nor emblematic of policies America should emulate. The cheerful and evidently unshakable confidence in such magical solutions to postulated problems is yet another manifestation — Republicans are not immune: No Child Left Behind decrees that by 2014 all American students will be proficient in math and reading — of what the late Sen. Pat Moynihan called ''the leakage of reality from American life.''
Will is a Washington Post columnist. He can be e-mailed at georgewill@washpost.com.

Fire Haley
06-26-2009, 10:17 AM
A must see video - Glenn Beck on the unbelievable stupidity of this Bill

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/27244/


Voting for a permanent recession - for decades

Fire Haley
06-26-2009, 10:56 AM
WASHINGTON – House Democrats have narrowly won an important test vote on legislation to combat global warming and usher in a new era of cleaner energy.

The vote on Friday was 217-205 to advance the White House-backed legislation to the full House. Thirty Democrats defected.

Republicans say the bill includes the largest tax increase in history.



Now it goes to the full House vote this afternoon.

I hear it's nice in Costa Rica

RunWillieRun
06-26-2009, 01:36 PM
I'm screwed too

http://www.theminorityreportblog.com/system/files/CBOenergymap.jpg

http://www.theminorityreportblog.com/story/steve_foley/2009/06/23/most_states_lose_under_cap_n_trade_cbo_interactive _map




Texas should just secede from the Union. That way I'll have somewhere to move when all of this bullshit hits the fan.

Dino 6 Rings
06-26-2009, 05:00 PM
EPA plays hide and seek; suppressed report revealed
By Michelle Malkin • June 26, 2009 12:30 AM My syndicated column below slams the EPA for suppressing inconvenient truths about Obama’s politicized global warming agenda. As I blogged early Wednesday afternoon, the Competitive Enterprise Institute released e-mails detailing how eco-bureaucrats stifled a senior researcher who challenged the agency’s reliance on outdated data to support its greenhouse gas “public endangerment” finding.

Breaking late tonight, CEI has released the draft version of the censored study that the EPA doesn’t want you to see. You can read the entire 98-page document here.

Here is the preface, which begins, “We have become increasingly concerned that EPA and many other agencies and countries have paid too little attention to the science of global warming. EPA and others have tended to accept the findings reached by outside groups…as being correct without a careful and critical examination of their conclusions and documentation.” No wonder they tried to shut up senior researcher Alan Carlin (click on image for full-size):

http://michellemalkin.com/

Fire Haley
06-26-2009, 06:23 PM
Way to go assclowns.


8 Republicans voted for the Cap and Trade bill and it passed by 7 - - 219 votes to 212 (218 needed to pass)

The 8 cap-and-tax Republican turncoats again are:

Bono Mack (CA) (202) 225-5330
Castle (DE) (202) 225-4165
Kirk (IL) (202) 225-4385 (And he’s seriously considering running for Senate!)
Lance (NJ) (202) 225-5361
LoBiondo (NJ) (202) 225-6572
McHugh (NY) (202) 225-4611
Reichert (WA) (202) 225-7761
Smith (NJ) (202) 225-3765



http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/capandtax804.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/26/the-8-cap-and-tax-republicans/

Fire Haley
06-27-2009, 06:39 PM
Bill? What Bill? The bill that the House voted on doesn't, strictly speaking, exist:

"If a bill for which there is no copy were to actually pass this body," Barton asked, "could the bill without a copy be sent to the Senate for its consideration?"

Through a series of parliamentary inquiries, the Republicans learned that the 300-plus page managers' amendment, added to the bill last night in the House Rules Committee, has not even been been integrated with the official copy of the 1,090-page bill at the House Clerk's desk, let alone in any other location. The two documents are side-by-side at the desk as the clerk reads through the instructions in the 300 page document for altering the 1,090 page document.

But they cannot be simply combined, because the amendment contains 300 pages of items like this: "Page 15, beginning line 8, strike paragraph (11)..."

How many members of Congress do you suppose have gone through it all to see how it changes the bill?

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/wheres-the-bill-49208987.html

Global Warming is apparently so urgent that we can't even wait until members of Congress know what they're voting on.

hindes204
06-27-2009, 07:52 PM
Bill? What Bill? The bill that the House voted on doesn't, strictly speaking, exist:

"If a bill for which there is no copy were to actually pass this body," Barton asked, "could the bill without a copy be sent to the Senate for its consideration?"

Through a series of parliamentary inquiries, the Republicans learned that the 300-plus page managers' amendment, added to the bill last night in the House Rules Committee, has not even been been integrated with the official copy of the 1,090-page bill at the House Clerk's desk, let alone in any other location. The two documents are side-by-side at the desk as the clerk reads through the instructions in the 300 page document for altering the 1,090 page document.

But they cannot be simply combined, because the amendment contains 300 pages of items like this: "Page 15, beginning line 8, strike paragraph (11)..."

How many members of Congress do you suppose have gone through it all to see how it changes the bill?

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/wheres-the-bill-49208987.html

Global Warming is apparently so urgent that we can't even wait until members of Congress know what they're voting on.

:banging::banging::banging::banging::banging::bang ing::banging::banging::banging::banging::banging:: banging::banging::banging::banging::banging::bangi ng::banging::banging::banging::banging::banging::b anging:



thats all i have to say about that

HometownGal
06-27-2009, 10:40 PM
Texas should just secede from the Union. That way I'll have somewhere to move when all of this bullshit hits the fan.

We Pennsylvanians are going to get hit hard too. :mad::banging: We're already known as Taxylvania.

Thanks assholes. :upyours:

X-Terminator
06-27-2009, 10:52 PM
Just remember Dems - YOU VOTED HIM IN. Now we all are going to have to pay the price.

I'm all for energy independence and cleaner energy sources, but this is NOT the way to go. Anybody who seriously believes that this will only cost taxpayers less than $10 per month in the future needs their friggin heads examined. Between this and the albatross of a health care bill that Obama wants to force on us, we're all going to be broke from paying all of the taxes.

How about this - we let the private sector and the scientific community come up with solutions to our energy problems. They love science when it suits their global warming hysteria (and let's face it, that's really what this is), but when it goes against their beliefs, well then forget that. They have developed a way to turn coal into electricity and natural gas without all of the pollution that goes along with it. Let's focus on that, and similar scientific breakthroughs, instead of taxing the citizens to death!

KeiselPower99
06-27-2009, 11:59 PM
This bill is complete bs and we are all screwed from it.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
06-28-2009, 12:14 AM
Let us drill for our own oil and we would solve a lot of our money problems. Now is not the time to push for new energy sources. I am all for a clean environment, but right now we can't keep our heads above water as it is.

43Hitman
06-28-2009, 06:42 AM
I wonder where all the Obama faithful are? I mean their usually telling us how bad Bush left this country and that Obama is going to save us all.. Where are those people now? Why aren't they defending broken campaign promise after broken campaign promise? Or how about the failed policies of the past that Obama vehemently campaigned against but is now implementing on a daily basis? I think it's safe to say at this point that anyone who voted for Obama is now starting to realize that they got hustled.

Fire Haley
06-28-2009, 08:56 AM
The socialists in power are convinced there is not a single problem in this country that couldn’t be fixed if only everyone would pay more taxes.

HometownGal
06-28-2009, 09:49 AM
I wonder where all the Obama faithful are? I mean their usually telling us how bad Bush left this country and that Obama is going to save us all.. Where are those people now? Why aren't they defending broken campaign promise after broken campaign promise? Or how about the failed policies of the past that Obama vehemently campaigned against but is now implementing on a daily basis?

Most of the Obama sheeple still believe he is going to save us all, sadly, and will never admit that the Savior is in way over his head UNTIL something he implements adversely affects them or their loved ones. :shake02:

I think it's safe to say at this point that anyone who voted for Obama is now starting to realize that they got hustled

Unfortunately, no they aren't. They continue to slurp the Obaaaaaama kool-aid by the gallons and refuse to acknowledge or admit that maybe - probably - they elected an unqualified and unprepared dolt to lead this country who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. Sadly, their votes are going to adversely affect ALL of us for the next 3-1/2 years. :mad:

JEFF4i
06-28-2009, 10:24 AM
Sadly, their votes are going to adversely affect ALL of us for the next 3-1/2 years. :mad:

:chuckle::rofl::laughing:

It's kind of funny, actually.

HometownGal
06-28-2009, 10:26 AM
:chuckle::rofl::laughing:

It's kind of funny, actually.

The typical answer I'd expect from an Obama-ite. Thanks for not disappointing me. :applaudit::hatsoff: :laughing::rofl:

JEFF4i
06-28-2009, 10:28 AM
The typical answer I'd expect from an Obama-ite. Thanks for not disappointing me. :applaudit::hatsoff: :laughing::rofl:

Typical answer I'd expect from Chicken Little. The sky isn't falling, it's okay
HTG. :flap: :hug:


*runs and hides from the true, just, and infinite power of...HTG*

Dino 6 Rings
06-28-2009, 10:30 AM
Boehner: Climate bill a 'pile of s--t'
By Molly K. Hooper
Posted: 06/27/09 09:22 PM [ET]
Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) had a few choice words about House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's (D-Calif.) landmark climate-change bill after its passage Friday.

When asked why he read portions of the cap-and-trade bill on the floor Friday night, Boehner told The Hill, "Hey, people deserve to know what's in this pile of s--t."


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/boehner-climate-bill-a-pile-of-s--t-2009-06-27.html

fansince'76
06-28-2009, 10:31 AM
:chuckle::rofl::laughing:

It's kind of funny, actually.

When your gas and electric bills go through the roof, it'll be interesting to see if you're still laughing then.

JEFF4i
06-28-2009, 10:31 AM
Boehner: Climate bill a 'pile of s--t'
By Molly K. Hooper
Posted: 06/27/09 09:22 PM [ET]

When asked why he read portions of the cap-and-trade bill on the floor Friday night, Boehner told The Hill, "Hey, people deserve to know what's in this pile of s--t."




Dude, that's just awesome. Hats off to Congressman Boehner.

HometownGal
06-28-2009, 10:39 AM
Typical answer I'd expect from Chicken Little. The sky isn't falling, it's okay
HTG. :flap: :hug:



The sky started to fall on January 20, 2009 and is continuing to fall at a rapid rate.

Here you go, Jeff. Nice and cold, just how you like it. :drink:

http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Koolaid.jpg


*runs and hides from the true, just, and infinite power of...HTG*

No reason to run and hide from me, buddy. There is no "power" on an internet BB. :wink02:

JEFF4i
06-28-2009, 10:42 AM
OH YEAHHH!

43Hitman
06-28-2009, 11:04 AM
So Jeff, do you even know what cap and trade is and how it effects everyone? Actually it should be called cap and tax cause that's really what it amounts to. You haven't really defended your saviors stance on this, all you have said is "OH YEAHH!" and called HTG chicken little which is hardly a defense. Maybe that is your knee jerk reaction to something that you either know nothing about or you realize that we are all gonna be screwed if this bill gets through senate. So which is it?

JEFF4i
06-28-2009, 11:12 AM
So Jeff, do you even know what cap and trade is and how it effects everyone? Actually it should be called cap and tax cause that's really what it amounts to. You haven't really defended your saviors stance on this, all you have said is "OH YEAHH!" and called HTG chicken little which is hardly a defense. Maybe that is your knee jerk reaction to something that you either know nothing about or you realize that we are all gonna be screwed if this bill gets through senate. So which is it?


Ahhh, the assumption that I support this. Maybe if you act like an adult and avoid statements like, "your savior's" stance, I'd play along and argue the part.

Oh, and before you point out my previous comments as not being adult either, I'll let you know that I didn't make them under the assumption that they were, nor was I trying to make any sort of argument. Simply conversation.

Finally, I'd like to point out your logical fallacy that I either know nothing or realize the fatality of this bill when, in reality, these are not the only two options avaliable. I'd ignore this were it not for the aforementioned.

43Hitman
06-28-2009, 11:15 AM
:chuckle::rofl::laughing:

It's kind of funny, actually.

Very mature...

43Hitman
06-28-2009, 11:16 AM
Typical answer I'd expect from Chicken Little. The sky isn't falling, it's okay
HTG. :flap: :hug:


*runs and hides from the true, just, and infinite power of...HTG*


This must be the part where you were contributing to the conversation.

JEFF4i
06-28-2009, 11:18 AM
Very mature...

This must be the part where you were contributing to the conversation.

Perhaps if you read my previous post in this thread...well, nevermind. C'mon Hitman, up the game.

43Hitman
06-28-2009, 11:26 AM
Perhaps if you read my previous post in this thread...well, nevermind. C'mon Hitman, up the game.

You didn't even post until page seven, and it's been nothing but flame baiting since. So I am not really sure what posts your referring to in this thread. The fact that this bill effects all us in a bad way is no game to me. Maybe it is to the people writing the bill and getting rich off of it, but not to normal people.

JEFF4i
06-28-2009, 11:33 AM
You didn't even post until page seven, and it's been nothing but flame baiting since. So I am not really sure what posts your referring to in this thread. The fact that this bill effects all us in a bad way is no game to me. Maybe it is to the people writing the bill and getting rich off of it, but not to normal people.

Now, I'm no English teacher, but previous post. Grammatically, this indicates the post most recent to one references it.

Yes, it was flame-baiting in a manner of sorts, though not necessarily intended to be. That said, it was deliberately at the people (more like person, HTG), with a slight edge of humour.

I'm sorry if I offended you, or somehow instigated these haphazard posts of yours. The reason I didn't post until page 7 is because I really don't have much to say, I'm pretty neutral on this. Oh, I know, saying that is instigates a firestorm in it's own right, but only being honest.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-28-2009, 12:14 PM
I havent really posted too much about this bill..well...simply because I had not educated myself enough about it to make a logical fact-based statement. To be fair I am almost ALWAYS against the government getting their hands into anything...history has shown us that the government is never beyond expanding their level of incompetence. But lets look at the facts of this bill.

The Congressional Budget Office did an analysis of the climate legislation and stated that it would cost the average household only $175 a year by 2020. HOWEVER...This is a one year analysis that did not take into account the fact that the cap to reduce energy emmisions gets tighter with time.
The analysis looks solely at the year 2020...which is before most of the tough restrictions kick in. As the cap is tightened and companies are stripped of those opportunities to decrease their emissions, the price of government issued permits will go through the roof and of ....these expensive permits will be passed to the consumers.

The analysis even admitted that it only looked at the day by day cost but...: "The resource cost does not indicate the potential decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) that could result from the cap."

Simply...The whole point of cap and trade is to hike the price of enrgy...(electricity and gas) in the hopes that we will use less. The end result will be that these prices will show up not just inour monthly electricity bills or at the gas station but in every manufactured good...from clothes...to food...to cars. As the prices go up, You and I willl cut back on spending..... which in turn will force companies to cut back on production..... which results in fewer jobs......which creates higher unemployment.

Other individual analysis have shown that this bill will cost the economy a little over $161 billion in 2020, which is the $1,870 increase in cost per family that wwe see thrown around. Following this scenerio...when the bill's restrictions kick in, that numbercould rise to $6,800 for a family of four by 2035.

Now that is just an average per family when considering the country as a whole....It doesn't take into account the fact that certain areas of the country will be more severely hit than others.....coal producing states for example.

Before this bill hit the floor...Three amendments were proposed to protect Americans from large increases in prices.
1) Suspend the program if gas hit $5 a gallon
2) Suspend the program if electricity prices rose 10% over 2009
3) Suspend the program if unemployment rates hit 15%.

The majority party defeated all of them....and we should be asking ourselves ...Why?

An excellent indicator might be what other countries are already experiencing. Britain's Taxpayer Alliance estimates the average family there is paying nearly $1,300 a year in green taxes for carbon-cutting programs in effect only a few years.

This is beyond democrat and republican partisanship...This is about all of us standing up, and letting our "representatives" know as Americans we are tired of the lack of common sense coming from our capital.

Fire Haley
06-28-2009, 12:26 PM
The hippies should know this - Enron wanted cap and trade.



Enron Sought Global Warming Regulation, Not Free Markets

Enron executives believed that a cap-and-trade program would put them in a position to dominate the U.S. energy market. Electric utilities, required to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide, would be forced to switch from coal to natural gas as the only practical alternative to electricity production. As a leading trader of natural gas, Enron would be the recipient of a huge financial windfall.

Moreover, Enron is already a major trader of carbon dioxide emissions throughout the world, making it similarly positioned to take a fee with each and every ton of carbon dioxide traded within the United States.

The potential redistribution of wealth involves more than just energy companies. As noted by Ross McKitrick, an economist at The University of Guelph in Canada, “If emissions are controlled by tradable quotas, this creates a new, artificial scarcity in something that hitherto had been free: the right to release carbon dioxide.”

http://cei.org/gencon/019,02898.cfm

43Hitman
06-28-2009, 12:52 PM
I havent really posted too much about this bill..well...simply because I had not educated myself enough about it to make a logical fact-based statement. To be fair I am almost ALWAYS against the government getting their hands into anything...history has shown us that the government is never beyond expanding their level of incompetence. But lets look at the facts of this bill.

The Congressional Budget Office did an analysis of the climate legislation and stated that it would cost the average household only $175 a year by 2020. HOWEVER...This is a one year analysis that did not take into account the fact that the cap to reduce energy emmisions gets tighter with time.
The analysis looks solely at the year 2020...which is before most of the tough restrictions kick in. As the cap is tightened and companies are stripped of those opportunities to decrease their emissions, the price of government issued permits will go through the roof and of ....these expensive permits will be passed to the consumers.

The analysis even admitted that it only looked at the day by day cost but...: "The resource cost does not indicate the potential decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) that could result from the cap."

Simply...The whole point of cap and trade is to hike the price of enrgy...(electricity and gas) in the hopes that we will use less. The end result will be that these prices will show up not just inour monthly electricity bills or at the gas station but in every manufactured good...from clothes...to food...to cars. As the prices go up, You and I willl cut back on spending..... which in turn will force companies to cut back on production..... which results in fewer jobs......which creates higher unemployment.

Other individual analysis have shown that this bill will cost the economy a little over $161 billion in 2020, which is the $1,870 increase in cost per family that wwe see thrown around. Following this scenerio...when the bill's restrictions kick in, that numbercould rise to $6,800 for a family of four by 2035.

Now that is just an average per family when considering the country as a whole....It doesn't take into account the fact that certain areas of the country will be more severely hit than others.....coal producing states for example.

Before this bill hit the floor...Three amendments were proposed to protect Americans from large increases in prices.
1) Suspend the program if gas hit $5 a gallon
2) Suspend the program if electricity prices rose 10% over 2009
3) Suspend the program if unemployment rates hit 15%.

The majority party defeated all of them....and we should be asking ourselves ...Why?

An excellent indicator might be what other countries are already experiencing. Britain's Taxpayer Alliance estimates the average family there is paying nearly $1,300 a year in green taxes for carbon-cutting programs in effect only a few years.

This is beyond democrat and republican partisanship...This is about all of us standing up, and letting our "representatives" know as Americans we are tired of the lack of common sense coming from our capital.

:thumbsup: You've said so much better than I could have. :applaudit:

silver & black
06-28-2009, 01:24 PM
This is the kind of thing that will fuel some nut job to make an assassination attempt before Obama sees two years in office.

tony hipchest
06-28-2009, 01:27 PM
This is the kind of thing that will fuel some nut job to make an assasination attempt before Obama sees two years in office.

only because he's black, not because of his politics (otherwise just about every president wouldve had an attempt on their life).

silver & black
06-28-2009, 01:33 PM
only because he's black, not because of his politics (otherwise just about every president wouldve had an attempt on their life).

No, it has NOTHING to do with him being black. It has EVERYTHING to do with killing this country with outrageous spending and people losing their jobs. Desperate people do desperate things.

Somehow, I just knew that someone would throw the race thing out there. :shake01:

tony hipchest
06-28-2009, 01:41 PM
No, it has NOTHING to do with him being black. It has EVERYTHING to do with killing this country with outrageous spending and people losing their jobs. :shake01:

prove it. :coffee:

youre the one who said "nut job" right?

how political was the last two attempts on the lives of reagan and ford?

there have been lost jobs and higher taxes under a ton of presidents, and plenty of lost lives and limbs due to war. where were all of your predicted assassination attempts then?

silver & black
06-28-2009, 02:02 PM
prove it. :coffee:

youre the one who said "nut job" right?

how political was the last two attempts on the lives of reagan and ford?

there have been lost jobs and higher taxes under a ton of presidents, and plenty of lost lives and limbs due to war. where were all of your predicted assassination attempts then?

Not on a scale as grand as what's coming.

If an assassination attempt was going to made soley because he is black, it would have happened before he ever saw the oval office.

It's easy to say "prove it" when you know damn well that I just stated my opinion, not based on anything other than what I think. Why don't you prove that what I said is wrong? :coffee:

tony hipchest
06-28-2009, 02:08 PM
this is what gets me about message board opinions. how can someone assuredly say higher taxes would be fuel for an assassination attempt but then say him being black most certainly wouldnt?

anyone who would try to kill him, already has the fuel of hatred and mental imbalance. higher taxes would be nothing more than a lame, spineless excuse.

and that is MY opinion which you immediately dismissed.

hindes204
06-28-2009, 02:11 PM
There has been alot of political discussions on this board, and most of them, you will find one side or the other defending the actions of the party they support...on this particular issue though, i havent seen one dem defend this bill, is it because they dare not go against "the change we can believe in" and admit that this is a terrible bill.

silver & black
06-28-2009, 02:16 PM
this is what gets me about message board opinions. how can someone assuredly say higher taxes would be fuel for an assassination attempt but then say him being black most certainly wouldnt?

anyone who would try to kill him, already has the fuel of hatred and mental imbalance. higher taxes would be nothing more than a lame, spineless excuse.

and that is MY opinion which you immediately dismissed.

I didn't dismiss your opinion at all. YOU are the one that immediately brought race into it. You are the one that said an assassination attempt would be "only because he's black"... I just disagreed with that. My original statement (opinion) had/has NOTHING to do with what color the man is.

tony hipchest
06-28-2009, 02:31 PM
on this particular issue though, i havent seen one dem defend this bill, is it because they dare not go against "the change we can believe in" and admit that this is a terrible bill.

good call. although it has nothing to do with daring. it IS an untimely bill, however all prices will go up just the same regardless of its passing. (see gasoline and the price of eggs and milk a year ago). its just a matter of whos pockets the "profits" go into.

I just disagreed with that. My original statement (opinion) had/has NOTHING to do with what color the man is.

and i disagreed with that. the foundation was set by you saying a "nutjob" and my example the last 2 assassination attempts.

it is my contention that any assassination attempt on him has more to do with his race (see martin luther king jr) or getting the attention of an actress like jodie foster, or a criminal such as charlie manson, as opposed to higher taxes and politics.

your opinion almost seems to legitimize or provide a valid reason for such an attempt.

like i said, higher taxes would be just a weak assed excuse for MUCH deeper, underlying factors.

revefsreleets
06-28-2009, 02:38 PM
Did anyone actually read George Will's piece on what a bill like this did in Spain?

They LOST 110,000 jobs. They estimate that for every "green job" they created, they lost 2.2 REAL jobs. The jobs they DID create are HUGELY subsidized by the government (to the tune of as much as 1.4 million a piece). Their unemployment rate is 18%.

This is a PIECE OF SHIT BILL. The fact that they feel the need to fill the bill with a bunch of price increase backstops should tell you all you need to know: There is a real danger of GIANT increases in power bills of all kinds.

Why? Because this bill taxes existing sources of power and fuel before any kind of viable alternative is even remotely close to being even a workable stop-gap, let alone a real replacement.

Awful, awful, awful legislation and ANY Senator or Congressperson who votes for it needs ousted next election.

tony hipchest
06-28-2009, 03:13 PM
personally i liked bill richardsons take on hydrothermal power, drilling in the rocky mountain region, and providing tax refunds for the states surplus profits in natural gas sales, but hey! he is a democrat, and supposedly too much of a criminal to even hold the commerce secretary seat.

revefsreleets
06-28-2009, 03:28 PM
That is a viable idea. It actually provides a source of alternative energy. It provides a way to fund itself. And it's scalable. If it provides so many households worth of power, let it effect THOSE households it powers.

Cap and trade sucks in every way. It robs from the coal states and let's idiots like Barbara Boxer look good to her fruit-and-nut constituents who don't know any better anyway.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get, and I mean like in a Hulk-Smash sense of the word "anger"...

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-28-2009, 03:35 PM
personally i liked bill richardsons take on hydrothermal power, drilling in the rocky mountain region, and providing tax refunds for the states surplus profits in natural gas sales, but hey! he is a democrat, and supposedly too much of a criminal to even hold the commerce secretary seat.

How the *%@#$ is Richardson not fit for the Commerce Secretary Seat...but Roland Burris (who was caught on tape "paying" for a senator seat to ousted Gov. Blagojevich...and then LIED about it to congress) gets to remain an Illinois Senator.


Seriously.....My State Sucks Monkey Nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:banging:

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-28-2009, 03:38 PM
That is a viable idea. It actually provides a source of alternative energy. It provides a way to fund itself. And it's scalable. If it provides so many households worth of power, let it effect THOSE households it powers.

Cap and trade sucks in every way. It robs from the coal states and let's idiots like Barbara Boxer look good to her fruit-and-nut constituents who don't know any better anyway.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get, and I mean like in a Hulk-Smash sense of the word "anger"...

:point::flex::checkit:

tony hipchest
06-28-2009, 03:41 PM
How the *%@#$ is Richardson not fit for the Commerce Secretary Seat...but Roland Burris (who was caught on tape "paying" for a senator seat to ousted Gov. Blagojevich...and then LIED about it to congress) gets to remain an Illinois Senator.


Seriously.....My State Sucks Monkey Nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:banging:i dont know LLT. :doh:

i thought he was most qualified to be president, vice president, OR secretary of state (and that is including ANYONE the GOP had to offer up).

:noidea:

my only thought is that in general politics suck and the good guys are almost guaranteed to finish last.

silver & black
06-28-2009, 03:41 PM
and i disagreed with that. the foundation was set by you saying a "nutjob" and my example the last 2 assassination attempts.

it is my contention that any assassination attempt on him has more to do with his race (see martin luther king jr) or getting the attention of an actress like jodie foster, or a criminal such as charlie manson, as opposed to higher taxes and politics.

your opinion almost seems to legitimize or provide a valid reason for such an attempt.

like i said, higher taxes would be just a weak assed excuse for MUCH deeper, underlying factors.
__________________

Ok... you win. I'm not about to argue about it anymore.

PisnNapalm
06-28-2009, 05:27 PM
Please contact your US senators. Make it clear to them that you do not want them to support this bill.

Specter probably will vote for it, I dunno about Casey.

Speak up people!! Email them, CALL THEM!!! Phone calls work much better and faster than emails.

atlsteelers
06-29-2009, 11:06 AM
i actively call my senators to support clean air and water.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-29-2009, 11:28 AM
i actively call my senators to support clean air and water.

That is a silly comment...everyone supports clean air and water. That is a diversion from the discussion of the thread.

Please debate fairly.

fansince'76
06-29-2009, 12:01 PM
...everyone supports clean air and water.

Yep, especially since I just watched Silent Running for the first time since I was in junior high school last night. "Take good care of the forest, Dewey." :chuckle:

43Hitman
06-29-2009, 12:23 PM
i actively call my senators to support clean air and water.


So does Wall-E. Care to elaborate?

Fire Haley
06-29-2009, 12:29 PM
How they voted

Congressional District map

http://vprdqw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pAzKtk2Hsb4uzeX2Ee_eEuraMQnWcBrh_gWLwERCkjYYEs74 B7PBkCnkh6Z0WaUhSYNgIKeh3KpOaOcQQ2ZpZdNkNveTkqE7h/HR2454_.tif

Indo
06-29-2009, 05:43 PM
Okay. So here's my two cents:

What confuses me most is this whole debate that's on this forum about the Cap and Trade tax increases. Like, I suppose, everybody on this forum, I didn't have time to read the 1200 pages that comprise this bill. Neither did the Congress members that are voting on it. Does it strike anybody as strange that this is the second legislative action brought about by this administration which has not given Congress members ample time to read what they're voting for

The thing that amazes me most is the fact that it's based on the whole global warming thing. Apparently, if we want to use energy, we will have to pay penalties for it in the form of taxation. The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as global warming. There is a wealth of information, which is now coming to light, that clearly shows that the “scientific research” that apparently “proves” that global warming exists has been shown to be the biggest scientific fraud this side of the turn of the 19th century. Why, do you suppose, the better part of this research, which disproves this whole theory of global warming has been disregarded and, in fact, hidden by those that wish to push these types of bills through?

For those of you who continue to apparently support this, I suggest you educate yourselves. It will affect you as much as it will affect me and everybody else on this forum and everybody else in this country. History and experience has proven that these sorts of bills cause and perpetuate recessions. And this time it's not just Big Business that will be affected. So will you.

This is not about clean air and water. The science, or lack thereof, proves that. It's about hidden taxation. Period.

It’s Alchemy 101: How The Democrats will Make Money Out of Thin (CLEAN but not Globally Warmed) Air.
It’s a Lie. Welcome to the New World Order.

Fire Haley
06-30-2009, 07:05 AM
It's never too early to let your Senators know how you feel.

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm