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mmalone
07-08-2009, 06:48 AM
Offensive coordinator rankings: Cam's the best
Real Scouts
By kilchuk.tsn
Created 06/02/2009 - 19:32

The battle between offensive and defensive coordinators is ongoing. Both must be smart, creative and adjust an entire week's worth of preparation on the fly as game conditions dictate. As more defenses use shifting 3-4 alignments, offensive coordinators must adjust game plans accordingly.
RealScouts, Sporting News' team of former NFL scouts, rank their top 20 offensive coordinators:

1. Cam Cameron, Ravens. Being innovative is only part of the job. Putting your best players in a position to be successful is another. Cameron, despite his reputation taking a beating in his one year in Miami, is a great coach who took a Division I-AA quarterback and turned him into a productive NFL starter as a rookie.

2. Chan Gailey, Chiefs. Gailey's shotgun-heavy attack is a perfect philosophical fit with new coach Todd Haley. It also will limit the learning curve of QB Matt Cassel, who played in a similar system last season in New England. The Chiefs will attack through the air and could have the NFL's most improved offense in '09.

3. Dan Henning, Dolphins. His system has stood the test of time, beginning with the Houston Oilers in 1972. Most recently, it has worked with Jake Delhomme in Carolina and Chad Pennington in Miami. Henning is an unsung hero of the Dolphins' turnaround. His scheme calls for a lot of runs and high-percentage passes.

4. Kevin Gilbride, Giants. He couples power runs with downfield passes. His philosophy relies on big, athletic man-blockers on the line to wear down defenses with the run and set up play-action passes. The Giants control the clock with a basic and conservative offense that capitalizes on defensive mistakes.

5. Mike Heimerdinger, Titans. He runs one of the NFL's most conservative offenses, but look for more balance this year. He will use RB Chris Johnson more as pass catcher and will take advantage of upgrades at wide receiver. Heimerdinger is a master at creating mismatches with formation changes.

6. Scott Linehan, Lions. He likes the downfield passing game and is more likely to call passes in the red zone. He was the man behind the scenes in Minnesota when QB Daunte Culpepper was playing his best ball. The Lions' problem is a poor offensive line and lack of depth at receiver.

7. Jason Garrett, Cowboys. With Terrell Owens gone, look for more balance -- a greater reliance on the run and passes spread around. Garrett, T.O.'s whipping boy last year, is one of the brighter young minds in the league. Garrett is great at combining elements of different schemes, making his offense tough to defend.

8. Bob Bratkowski, Bengals. Bratkowski's strength is in the details of the passing game. When all his players were healthy and happy, he had a juggernaut in Cincinnati. He now is using the run more often, which could make QB Carson Palmer more effective. With an improved line and a healthy Palmer, the Bengals could surprise in '09.

9. Dirk Koetter, Jaguars. He would prefer a more wide-open offense that incorporates downfield passes but plays to his team's strength -- a power run game. QB David Garrard must play smarter, though.

10. Mike Mularkey, Falcons. He is an old-school, smash-mouth guy who loves two-tight end sets with fullbacks leading power runs. He uses the run to set up play-action passes downfield. Mularkey has ideal tools in Atlanta: A great back, a smart young QB and some versatile playmakers.

11. Bruce Arians, Steelers. He likes to pass more than any coordinator in Steelers history but hasn't abandoned the run. If RBs Willie Parker and Rashard Mendenhall remain healthy, Arians could use them together at times in '09. Arians combines run sets with empty backfields and spread formations, making the Steelers tough to defend.

12. Russ Grimm, Cardinals. With Grimm replacing Todd Haley, the Cardinals will get a heavier dose of the running game -- a goal of coach Ken Whisenhunt since he first arrived two years ago. Still, the team's high-powered passing attack will remain the dominant feature. Expect to see more no-huddle attacks and shotgun formations, too.

13. Brian Schottenheimer, Jets. He quickly rose through the coaching ranks because of innovative ideas, but at the heart of his philosophy is a strong running game. That will be more evident if rookie Mark Sanchez wins the QB battle. Schottenheimer will be conservative but always looking for matchup advantages -- through the use of motion, no huddle or gimmick plays.

14. Greg Knapp, Seahawks. He will implement a one-cut, zone-running scheme in Seattle, setting up a conservative passing attack. Knapp has a proven system. He just has to overcome a lack of elite weapons in Seattle.

15. Marty Mornhinweg, Eagles. He runs a system with West Coast principles and plays. Traditionally, it's a 65/35 pass/run ratio, but the short passing game uses the backs, tight ends and receivers as a run substitute. QB Donovan McNabb must process a lot of information and throw quickly. The Eagles have upgraded the line and receiving corps, so look for them to rely a little less on RB Brian Westbrook.

16. Joe Philbin, Packers. Philbin uses a lot of multiple formations and has been fighting for more balance in the offense. Though conservative with in QB Aaron Rodgers' first season as a starter, Philbin will open up things in '09, working play-action passes off zone runs. As Rodgers matures, Philbin's name will become more recognizable.

17. Jeff Jagodzinski, Bucs. He had a nice NFL career developing when he left to be the Boston College head coach. He did develop NFL Rookie of the Year Matt Ryan in college. Another believer in the zone-blocking scheme, Jagodzinski also wants to open up the passing game and get away from ex-coach Jon Gruden's ball-control attack.

18. Ron Turner, Bears. An old-school, run-first guy, Turner will look to get more balance into the offense with the arrival of QB Jay Cutler and the emergence of WRs Devin Hester, Earl Bennett and Rashied Davis. Turner still will focus on the run but will be more aggressive in the passing game, using Cutler's skills and mobility to go downfield off play-action fakes.

19. Ted Tollner, Raiders. A long time NFL and college coach, Tollner has been brought into the fold to improve the Raiders' running game and make sure the team maximizes Darren McFadden. Tollner also is a former QB coach who could be instrumental in the development of JaMarcus Russell. If those two players emerge in '09, Tollner will get the credit.

Shanahan, 29, has done a good job of getting the talent to work together. He is the son of former Broncos coach Mike Shanahan and has been around the game for a long time, but line coach Alex Gibbs gets the credit for the improved running game and head coach Gary Kubiak still insists on calling most of the plays.

revefsreleets
07-08-2009, 09:42 AM
At least a couple of these guys ahead of Arians were available at one point to the Steelers, but they still went with Arians. Why? And why keep him if he's so ineffective?

I actually agree with this, more or less. I never said Arians was the greatest OC of all time, but he's respected and trusted by Ben, and obviously the FO thinks he's a good fit, and that's good enough for me.

mmalone
07-08-2009, 09:59 AM
At least a couple of these guys ahead of Arians were available at one point to the Steelers, but they still went with Arians. Why? And why keep him if he's so ineffective?

I actually agree with this, more or less. I never said Arians was the greatest OC of all time, but he's respected and trusted by Ben, and obviously the FO thinks he's a good fit, and that's good enough for me.

Makes me feel a bit better. I figured him to be a bit lower on the list.

A new year cometh.... Chins up. On to the Super Bowl..

mmalone
07-08-2009, 10:12 AM
I would really like arians football if he added a little more of this to the game in substiute for the one back up the middle calls.

add a little of this from #10 Atlanta

smash-mouth guy who loves two-tight end sets with fullbacks leading power runs. He uses the run to set up play-action passes downfield

and a little of this from the Eagles #15

Traditionally, it's a 65/35 pass/run ratio, but the short passing game uses the backs, tight ends and receivers as a run substitute.

Steel Head
07-08-2009, 10:18 AM
and a little of this from the Eagles #15

Traditionally, it's a 65/35 pass/run ratio, but the short passing game uses the backs, tight ends and receivers as a run substitute.

No thanks to that friggin garbage

The most dangerous offense is one that has balance and can both run and pass the ball.

klick81
07-08-2009, 10:19 AM
Should be interesting to see how Grimm does.

fansince'76
07-08-2009, 10:19 AM
But I thought Arians was the worst OC in NFL history? :chuckle:

The_WARDen
07-08-2009, 10:21 AM
I can't believe I'm defending him...

The whole "He likes to pass more than any coordinator in Steelers history.." part is more a reflection of

A) the era...this is a league that now favors the pass moreso than the run.
B) the Steelers have a franchise QB for the first time since the early 80's...so it makes sense to feature your talent more.

I'd be throwing the ball more also if I had a top 5 QB.

Steel Head
07-08-2009, 10:24 AM
I can't believe I'm defending him...

The whole "He likes to pass more than any coordinator in Steelers history.." part is more a reflection of

A) the era...this is a league that now favors the pass moreso than the run.
B) the Steelers have a franchise QB for the first time since the early 80's...so it makes sense to feature your talent more.

I'd be throwing the ball more also if I had a top 5 QB.

it's mostly a reflection of us not being able to run the ball consistently at all

Hammer67
07-08-2009, 10:35 AM
Oh boy...hear we go...what is this? Round 12 of the Arians depbate? LOL!

revefsreleets
07-08-2009, 10:36 AM
Arians offensive balance looks like this (over two years)

Rushing plays: 948
Passing plays: 971

You pretty much can't get much more balanced than that. But why let a little thing like stats and facts get in the way of some good ole ignorant Arians bashing?

fansince'76
07-08-2009, 10:46 AM
it's mostly a reflection of us not being able to run the ball consistently at all

You mean like 2007, when we ranked 3rd in the league in rushing while Ben set a new franchise season record for TD passes?

Steel Head
07-08-2009, 10:50 AM
You mean like 2007, when we ranked 3rd in the league in rushing while Ben set a new franchise season record for TD passes?

I was talking about last year when we were ranked near the bottom of the NFL in rushing (fact). I am not saying this was Arians fault, more like the offensive lines fault

Not sure what the argument is here. Someone said we should pass more like the Eagles, I disagreed. Arians has never abandoned the running game. We just need to get better at running the ball this year than we were last year (and i think we will with an improved offensive line and healthy Mendenhall contributing)

fansince'76
07-08-2009, 10:52 AM
I was talking about last year when we were ranked near the bottom of the NFL in rushing (fact). I am not saying this was Arians fault, more like the offensive lines fault

Not sure what the argument is here. Someone said we should pass more like the Eagles, I disagreed. Arians has never abandoned the running game. We just need to get better at running the ball this year than we were last year (and i think we will with an improved offensive line and healthy Mendenhall contributing)

I agree - no way do I want to become as pass-happy as the Eagles.

Steel Head
07-08-2009, 10:56 AM
remember all those 3rd and shorts we couldn't convert?

more proof our running game was bad last year

Improving our running game will also help protect Ben

like you said, in 2007 Ben's stats were off the charts because we had a good running game (just like his 1st 2 years)

revefsreleets
07-08-2009, 10:58 AM
Even when he was the Browns OC, and they were considered "pass happy", he still was 55/45 pass to run.

Regardless, the power running game will return next year. That's why we drafted Urbik and Summers.

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-08-2009, 11:11 AM
I don't understand how they can rank Grimm at #12 when he has never been an OC before. :noidea:

Should probably just put in Clyde Christensen of the Colts on the list too. You know he is just gonna let Peyton run Tom Moore's offense.

The Arians ranking is about right. Good coach that is middle of the pack in the NFL.

Psyychoward86
07-08-2009, 11:17 AM
I can't believe I'm defending him...

The whole "He likes to pass more than any coordinator in Steelers history.." part is more a reflection of

A) the era...this is a league that now favors the pass moreso than the run.
B) the Steelers have a franchise QB for the first time since the early 80's...so it makes sense to feature your talent more.

I'd be throwing the ball more also if I had a top 5 QB.

Agreed. And that's a terrible list up there...

tony hipchest
07-08-2009, 11:59 AM
wait a minute....

something aint right here.

what the hell are 6 former cowher offensive assistants doing being ranked in the top 12?

not counting arians, the steelers have already had 5 of these guys on staff. weird.

and why hasnt nobody suggested to fire arians and bring in marty shottenhimer as our OC? he's still looking for work and knows a lil somthin' bout cowherball. :noidea:

mmalone
07-08-2009, 12:04 PM
No thanks to that friggin garbage

The most dangerous offense is one that has balance and can both run and pass the ball.

thats not what i said, i said trade a bit of our up the middle calls for the eagles short passing game using the backs, tight ends and receivers as a run substitute..
just like the new england pats use.

Dino 6 Rings
07-08-2009, 12:07 PM
wait a minute....

something aint right here.

what the hell are 6 former cowher offensive assistants doing being ranked in the top 12?

not counting arians, the steelers have already had 5 of these guys on staff. weird.

and why hasnt nobody suggested to fire arians and bring in marty shottenhimer as our OC? he's still looking for work and knows a lil somthin' bout cowherball. :noidea:

Fantastic Post. Maybe if someone starts to bash Arians, I'll break out the stats of all the other OCs on the list that were in Pittsburgh and their Stats for the time they were in Pittsburgh.

mmalone
07-08-2009, 12:07 PM
remember all those 3rd and shorts we couldn't convert?

more proof our running game was bad last year

Improving our running game will also help protect Ben

like you said, in 2007 Ben's stats were off the charts because we had a good running game (just like his 1st 2 years)

thats right on....

hopefully we have the pieces to bring it back. and a healthy backfield will make a big difference for ben.

KeiselPower99
07-08-2009, 12:08 PM
He was Peytons Oc so I can handle him here.

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-08-2009, 12:24 PM
He was Peytons Oc so I can handle him here.

He was Peyton's QB coach. Kind of like how Mark Wipple and Ken Anderson have been Ben's QB coach.

Tom Moore was the only NFL OC that Peyton Manning has had.

The_WARDen
07-08-2009, 12:24 PM
it's mostly a reflection of us not being able to run the ball consistently at all

Honestly, with Ben as our QB...I don't want to be a "running team". Fire your big guns and right now Ben is their best weapon.

Steel Head
07-08-2009, 12:37 PM
Honestly, with Ben as our QB...I don't want to be a "running team". Fire your big guns and right now Ben is their best weapon.

okay, let's look at the last 2 years under Arians

Ben with good running game (2007): 32 Td, 11 ints, 104 qb rating
Ben with bad running game (2008): 17 Td, 15 ints, 80 qb rating

see the difference?

The only reason we didn't win the SB in 2007 was that our D fell apart because of key injuries (Aaron Smith, Polamalu) and our special teams sucked (which Tomlin has now fixed)

If we get our running game on track this year, there is no stopping us!!!! :tt03:

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-08-2009, 12:46 PM
Steel head is right. Ben plays better when he doesnt have to be the focus of the offense and passes around 20 times a game.

Nothing wrong with a solid running game and balanced offense. That is the goal and I hope we find that short yardage solution that has been missing the past couple years.

The_WARDen
07-08-2009, 12:57 PM
okay, let's look at the last 2 years under Arians

Ben with good running game (2007): 32 Td, 11 ints, 104 qb rating
Ben with bad running game (2008): 17 Td, 15 ints, 80 qb rating

see the difference?

The only reason we didn't win the SB in 2007 was that our D fell apart because of key injuries (Aaron Smith, Polamalu) and our special teams sucked (which Tomlin has now fixed)

If we get our running game on track this year, there is no stopping us!!!! :tt03:

The only difference I see is:

2007 = no SB
2008 = SB

so, I guess the running game doesn't matter.

*yawn* I'm bored already...moving on.

X-Terminator
07-08-2009, 01:10 PM
In b4 the inevitable lock!

steelax04
07-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Arians offensive balance looks like this (over two years)

Rushing plays: 948
Passing plays: 971

You pretty much can't get much more balanced than that. But why let a little thing like stats and facts get in the way of some good ole ignorant Arians bashing?

While plays called might be balanced, I would say how effective the Steelers were with rush/pass wasn't as balanced. It was good to see that Arians didn't give up on the run and when the run game comes back with Parker and Mendy the call balance will be yet another weapon for the offense.

Rotorhead
07-08-2009, 01:34 PM
I just hold a grudge, still stuck on the moronic play 2 seasons ago that ended our season (well ok we as a team ended our season all year) but the QB draw on 3rd and a million still baffles me completely!!! Other than that I will withhold re-judging him with a year of healthy backfield. I will admit I have been a big critic of Arians, but I am starting to come around, another step forward on the offensive front will allow me to mostly forget that QB draw lol.

revefsreleets
07-08-2009, 01:50 PM
IF that QB Draw had worked, he'd have been hailed as a genius.

That's the major problem with debating these things: People judge by success v failure but generally fail to add ALL the circumstances involved into the equation. There is also a knack to credit the players with success and the coaches with failure. It taints the argument and makes it exceedingly difficult to ever accurately gauge just how effective a coach really is. That's why in cases like this I tend to leave it up to the staff and FO, even at the risk of being labeled a lemming...

Case in point: Remember the 94 AFCCG? The last play...Cowher and O'Donnell were over chatting on the sideline, and they were conferring with Chan Gailey (I believe) via headset, and they were all cool as a cucumber, laughing and at ease. I thought "Well, they must have a fool-proof play in mind, so I'm not worried".

Of course they ran that little Foster draw thing and the pass was knocked down and that was that...

LVSteelersfan
07-08-2009, 02:05 PM
I have been an Arians basher because of his plays around the goalline. Trying to run the ball up the middle with an O-line that ranks as far down as they did last year is suicide. How many 4th and 1s on the goal line can we miss before stopping the insanity. His playcalling down there sucks and it has to get better. We lost so many TDs because of that crap. Including in the Super Bowl. The playcalling in the middle of the field is ok as long as it isn't the run Willie up the middle on first down, run Willie up the middle on second down for a total of 2 or 3 yards (again with a horrid O-line) and 3rd and long where there is less chance to convert because the O-line can't block worth a hill of beans. I love the opening drives in most of the games as the team tends to march down the field with an array of different playcalls (meaning not what was mentioned above). Arians ranking is about right. In the middle of the pack means mediocre at best. And don't give me that "We won the Super Bowl with it" garbage. We won the Super Bowl when the reigns were taken off Ben on the last drive and we drove the ball down the field quickly. I agree running the clock down is Steeler football, but it does not work with a mediocre O-line. Play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. That is what Arians needs to do. Mix the playcalling up and quit being so predictable.

revefsreleets
07-08-2009, 02:19 PM
See, that dog doesn't hunt either: I've seen Arians call pass-pass-pass at the GL. Run-pass-pass. Pass-run-pass.

It simply doesn't matter what plays he calls, he gets bashed no matter what. He can't go down on the filed and block and pass and carry the ball, too, he can only call the plays...

LVSteelersfan
07-08-2009, 02:58 PM
See, that dog doesn't hunt either: I've seen Arians call pass-pass-pass at the GL. Run-pass-pass. Pass-run-pass.

It simply doesn't matter what plays he calls, he gets bashed no matter what. He can't go down on the filed and block and pass and carry the ball, too, he can only call the plays...

You are right to a certain extent. I overdramatize a little bit at times. The goalline stuff is what drives me nuts. Kemoeatu needs to get his butt kicked by the coaching staff and bust some big holes up there. That IS his and Starks fault for sure getting pushed backwards at the line. Not the coaches. He needs to man up and be the behemoth that he is. But the fact remains that Arians is a middle of the road coordinator on what should be a top of the line team just as the article says. We have the best defensive coordinator by far in the league. Should be the same on both sides of the ball. And no, I don't begin to think I know more than the coaches do. The offense just frustrated me to no end last year. I have great hopes we can go undefeated this year just like I start out every year. Bottom line is he is the man and we have to live and die with him and that Oline.

The_WARDen
07-08-2009, 03:12 PM
IF that QB Draw had worked, he'd have been hailed as a genius.

That's the major problem with debating these things: People judge by success v failure but generally fail to add ALL the circumstances involved into the equation. There is also a knack to credit the players with success and the coaches with failure. It taints the argument and makes it exceedingly difficult to ever accurately gauge just how effective a coach really is. That's why in cases like this I tend to leave it up to the staff and FO, even at the risk of being labeled a lemming...

Case in point: Remember the 94 AFCCG? The last play...Cowher and O'Donnell were over chatting on the sideline, and they were conferring with Chan Gailey (I believe) via headset, and they were all cool as a cucumber, laughing and at ease. I thought "Well, they must have a fool-proof play in mind, so I'm not worried".

Of course they ran that little Foster draw thing and the pass was knocked down and that was that...

The problem that I had with the stupid QB draw call is that Miller & Ward could not be stopped that whole second half. If it ain't broke don't fix it is what I was thinking.

I just thought he out strategized himself.

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-08-2009, 03:17 PM
LVSteelerfan, the biggest fault that BA might have (other than no FB) is his allegiance to Larry Zeirline.

Zeirline was the O line coach in Cleveland during BA's time there. Then coach Z was in Buffalo when they were let go in Cleveland and coach Z was brought in when Arians got the OC job.

Coach Z is apparantly a technician, which is a good thing, but he hasnt demonstrated success with his NFL lines in Cleveland, Buffalo or Pittsburgh. It all begins up front and if Z could not get much out of Jeff Faine, Ross Verba, Ryan Tucker, Shaun O'Hara....then maybe he isnt that good of an NFL O-line coach. I am just seeing a trend.

revefsreleets
07-08-2009, 03:24 PM
How does an OC determine who the OL coach is?

That makes zero sense...that is the FO's, and, to a lessor extent (but still much greater than Arians) Tomlin's decision.

If Larry doesn't have it, the Steelers will let him go...but dumping the OL's failure in Arians lap may be the least astute observation I've ever seen you make.

steelreserve
07-08-2009, 03:38 PM
I was talking about last year when we were ranked near the bottom of the NFL in rushing (fact). I am not saying this was Arians fault, more like the offensive lines fault

Not sure what the argument is here. Someone said we should pass more like the Eagles, I disagreed. Arians has never abandoned the running game. We just need to get better at running the ball this year than we were last year (and i think we will with an improved offensive line and healthy Mendenhall contributing)

Not to mention that whenever we DO try an Eagles-like attack with short dump-offs and screens as a substitute for the run, it doesn't seem like we're very good at it. Even with Moore in there, we're just OK; he seems to be at his best when we throw to him on regular passing plays.

My suspicion is that Ben is not really suited to running that kind of offense -- not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you. It just means we're better off playing to our strengths.

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-08-2009, 03:56 PM
How does an OC determine who the OL coach is?

That makes zero sense...that is the FO's, and, to a lessor extent (but still much greater than Arians) Tomlin's decision.

If Larry doesn't have it, the Steelers will let him go...but dumping the OL's failure in Arians lap may be the least astute observation I've ever seen you make.

You totally misread what I am saying. It is perfectly plausable and normal for OC's to have input and influence on who coaches under them or with them. Especially for guys with tenure like Arians.

It is no coincidence that Chan Gailey left GA Tech for the Chiefs and brought Joe D'alessandris with him as an O line coach. It seems pretty reasonable that Arians worked with Zeirline in Cleveland and probably likes working with him. Tomlin is OK with Z probably because they crossed paths at the U of Cinci.

I just see no track record of success for Coach Z on the NFL level and am beginning to question if he is an NFL caliber position coach. I am not blaming Arians for the O line woes, but maybe his comfort with Zerline's x and o's, out weighs the apparent lack of Zeirline to get consistent effort from young guys.

Again, always said it and will say it again. I think Arians is a good coach, not great, but good.

mmalone
07-08-2009, 04:18 PM
I just hold a grudge, still stuck on the moronic play 2 seasons ago that ended our season (well ok we as a team ended our season all year) but the QB draw on 3rd and a million still baffles me completely!!! Other than that I will withhold re-judging him with a year of healthy backfield. I will admit I have been a big critic of Arians, but I am starting to come around, another step forward on the offensive front will allow me to mostly forget that QB draw lol.

i posted this for all of us that are a bit critical of bruce.

he made #11 so that is a good sign.. hopefully he makes the top 5 after this year.

and of course we will win another SB this year...

revefsreleets
07-08-2009, 04:20 PM
The Steelers could pretty much have the pick of the litter at OL coach. It's been a HUGE bone of contention in all the media outlets, fan complaints, I mean, pretty much EVERYWHERE. I'm SURE the FO has spent a little time on this one, since, you know, this is WHAT THEY DO. But you're saying, once again, that the Steelers just don't know what they are doing compared to you...Jeesh...

So, it's either this conspiracy theory that Arians has Larry Z and they stick together because the tandem has dirt on a Rooney, OR, the much more likely and plausible scenario that our line is just average, and our coach's are doing the best they can with what they have to work with.

I'm opting with reality...

RoethlisBURGHer
07-08-2009, 04:23 PM
remember all those 3rd and shorts we couldn't convert?

more proof our running game was bad last year

Improving our running game will also help protect Ben

like you said, in 2007 Ben's stats were off the charts because we had a good running game (just like his 1st 2 years)

It will help a lot to have a healthy Parker and a healthy Mendenhall.

mmalone
07-08-2009, 04:29 PM
So, it's either this conspiracy theory that Arians has Larry Z and they stick together because the tandem has dirt on a Rooney, OR, the much more likely and plausible scenario that our line is just average, and our coach's are doing the best they can with what they have to work with.

I'm opting with reality...

Logic would say your right.... the OL may in fact be the main problem.

Logic could also say, Tomlin and Dick are D-minded and that we are #1 on Defense'

Logic then could say, maybe BA and Z are at best average along with the OL, and tomlin is still giving these two the benefit of any doubt.. we did win the SB..

We shall see.

theplatypus
07-08-2009, 04:35 PM
Oh boy...hear we go...what is this? Round 12 of the Arians depbate? LOL!

Probably closer to 112

Indo
07-08-2009, 04:58 PM
wait a minute....

something aint right here.

what the hell are 6 former cowher offensive assistants doing being ranked in the top 12?

not counting arians, the steelers have already had 5 of these guys on staff. weird.

and why hasnt nobody suggested to fire arians and bring in marty shottenhimer as our OC? he's still looking for work and knows a lil somthin' bout cowherball. :noidea:

AW, C'mon Man...

You're just an Idealogical Zealot! :flap:

(I've been WAITIN' to use that!)

RoethlisBURGHer
07-08-2009, 05:11 PM
A lot of people just see the fact that we were #23 in rushing last year and forget the following things:

1. Last year the Steelers had their first season without Alan Faneca. He is a future Hall of Fame guard. That made a big difference on our offensive line last year.

2. We ended up with two injuries on our line last year that changed it. Max Starks replaced an injured Marvell Smith...and Darnell Stapelton replaced an injured Kendall Simmons.

3. Willie Parker was playing hurt a lot of the year. His knee and shoulder weren't right for most of the season.

4. Rashard Mendenhall broke his shoulder in his first start, ending his season.

5. While Mewelde Moore was surprisingly good in his expanded role last year, he isn't a starting running back.

All those factors played a big role in our poor rushing performance last year. But do people thing out anything with logic before making a post here bashing someone....no.

Preacher
07-08-2009, 05:13 PM
I was talking about last year when we were ranked near the bottom of the NFL in rushing (fact). I am not saying this was Arians fault, more like the offensive lines fault

Not sure what the argument is here. Someone said we should pass more like the Eagles, I disagreed. Arians has never abandoned the running game. We just need to get better at running the ball this year than we were last year (and i think we will with an improved offensive line and healthy Mendenhall contributing)

Exactly. Balance to slightly pass first offense, with a run game that can hold its own late in the game... seems to be the best way to win games.

and SB's.

mmalone
07-08-2009, 05:26 PM
Probably closer to 112

at least we have the fans talking football. nobody is bashing anyone.

tony hipchest
07-08-2009, 05:40 PM
AW, C'mon Man...

You're just an Idealogical Zealot! :flap:

(I've been WAITIN' to use that!):chuckle:

dont be a hater. :flap:

since thumpster has been tossed into the dumpster, i absolve myself of all obligations to use the term "vernacular" 50 times in one week.

now we only have UFN to constantly accuse members of ad hamina hamina hominem attacks and telling tales of dorthy and the scarecrow, or strawman, or whatever.

darn.

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-08-2009, 05:46 PM
The Steelers could pretty much have the pick of the litter at OL coach. It's been a HUGE bone of contention in all the media outlets, fan complaints, I mean, pretty much EVERYWHERE. I'm SURE the FO has spent a little time on this one, since, you know, this is WHAT THEY DO. But you're saying, once again, that the Steelers just don't know what they are doing compared to you...Jeesh...
...
Again, you are up to your same old sorry act. Taking pretty simple posts and attempting to put words in my mouth and other posters too.

I never said I think I know more than the Steelers. I never said Arians and Zeriline have dirt on the Rooneys. But you like to become a drama queen and embelish everything said here and think you have to defend you every post. :blah:

I am just making an observation that maybe Zeirline isnt a good fit here, just like Ray Sherman wasnt. I just made an observation that none of Larry Zeirline's O line's in Cleveland or Pittsburgh have been that great. Nor was the Buffalo O line that he was an assistant coach on.

LVSteelersfan
07-08-2009, 06:33 PM
LVSteelerfan, the biggest fault that BA might have (other than no FB) is his allegiance to Larry Zeirline.

Zeirline was the O line coach in Cleveland during BA's time there. Then coach Z was in Buffalo when they were let go in Cleveland and coach Z was brought in when Arians got the OC job.

Coach Z is apparantly a technician, which is a good thing, but he hasnt demonstrated success with his NFL lines in Cleveland, Buffalo or Pittsburgh. It all begins up front and if Z could not get much out of Jeff Faine, Ross Verba, Ryan Tucker, Shaun O'Hara....then maybe he isnt that good of an NFL O-line coach. I am just seeing a trend.

I don't know what the real problem is. Maybe Kemoeatu is not coachable. A lot of people do not like him. I personally want to see him do well because I believe someone that size should be able to steamroll through the opposing defense. I just think that kind of beef should be able to move anyone forward instead of being moved backwards. Don't know if it is Arian's or Zeirlein's fault or maybe even possibly Tomlin's fault for not trying to change what doesn't work on the goal line. We need to score in the red zone. We will score in the red zone. It is imperative that we score TDs in the red zone. We were there way too much and stonewalled for the quality of players we have on offense. (excluding the O-line who I hope gets better)

Steel Head
07-08-2009, 08:27 PM
I don't know what the real problem is. Maybe Kemoeatu is not coachable. A lot of people do not like him. I personally want to see him do well because I believe someone that size should be able to steamroll through the opposing defense.

Well that was his first year starting so he should get better

He might not be coachable because he is really dumb (save it, u all already bashed me once for this)

It really pissed me off when they kept trying to pull Kemo near the goal line and he kept getting in the way of the running back because he is too slow and not Faneca. I posted before last season than Kemo should play RG and they should move Simmons to LG because he is more mobile and the Steelers like to pull the LG (of course i was bashed for that also)

fansince'76
07-08-2009, 08:30 PM
I posted before last season than Kemo should play RG and they should move Simmons to LG because he is more mobile and the Steelers like to pull the LG (of course i was bashed for that also)

You joined in April of this year - if you were bashed before last season, it wasn't here, by my reckoning. :hunch:

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-08-2009, 09:15 PM
You joined in April of this year - if you were bashed before last season, it wasn't here, by my reckoning. :hunch:

Probably banned and then re-registered under another handle.....correct?

Anyways, no problem with Kemo playing LG. I seem to remember him pulling rather effectively in a playoff game vs the Chargers to the right side and Parker running off his block for a solid gain down to the goal line.

Conversely, Darnell Stapleton is more athletic and I vividly remember him pulling left only to be stuffed by a much lighter Teddy Bruschi vs the Pats. A pulling guard needs to be quick........not fast, and Kemo is fine for that.

Steel Head
07-08-2009, 09:21 PM
Conversely, Darnell Stapleton is more athletic and I vividly remember him pulling left only to be stuffed by a much lighter Teddy Bruschi vs the Pats. A pulling guard needs to be quick........not fast, and Kemo is fine for that.

no offensive linemen are fast

you are saying Kemo is quick? he's not

Rotorhead
07-08-2009, 11:00 PM
I agree Rev, unfortunately I am still burning from that play haha. Hopefully this is a successful offensive campaign this year and all is well. Just a note though, while I am critical of some of the play calling, I am overly happy with almost every aspect of the team. Me being critical of Bruce is akin to me finding a flaw in a perfect diamond, he is obviously a productive OC on a Superbowl winning team so he is a good coach. I just want perfection for the Steelers . . . haha

Come on Tony, I was looking forward to the use of "Vernacular" 50 times a week!!

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-09-2009, 12:00 AM
no offensive linemen are fast

you are saying Kemo is quick? he's not

WRONG.

Kemo posted a 4.57 in the 20 yard shuttle at the combine. Only 6 linemen were quicker than that time this year. Here are some notable times...Jason Smith-4.69, Michael Oher-4.60, Kraig Urbik-4.89, Andy Levitre-4.52

Max Unger is considered a quick and athletic guard/C and he ran 1.78 for 10 yards, 2.96 for 20 yard splits in his 40. Kemo ran a relatively close 1.87 10 yard split and 3.05 20 yard split at his combine.

Chris Kemoateu is 9/100 of a second slower than Max Unger at 10 yards and 20 yard splits. I would say your perception of Kemo not being quick....especially for a 335lb man, is incorrect.

HometownGal
07-09-2009, 06:48 AM
]I am just making an observation that maybe Zeirline isnt a good fit here[/B], just like Ray Sherman wasnt. I just made an observation that none of Larry Zeirline's O line's in Cleveland or Pittsburgh have been that great. Nor was the Buffalo O line that he was an assistant coach on.

Personally, I've had the same thoughts on Zierlein and I agree with your train of thought here. :drink:

We'll see this season if the line has improved and if they are still having issues, the Steelers may need to look a little deeper into Zierlein's role and make a change.

Steel Head
07-09-2009, 07:15 AM
WRONG.

Kemo posted a 4.57 in the 20 yard shuttle at the combine. Only 6 linemen were quicker than that time this year. Here are some notable times...Jason Smith-4.69, Michael Oher-4.60, Kraig Urbik-4.89, Andy Levitre-4.52

Max Unger is considered a quick and athletic guard/C and he ran 1.78 for 10 yards, 2.96 for 20 yard splits in his 40. Kemo ran a relatively close 1.87 10 yard split and 3.05 20 yard split at his combine.

Chris Kemoateu is 9/100 of a second slower than Max Unger at 10 yards and 20 yard splits. I would say your perception of Kemo not being quick....especially for a 335lb man, is incorrect.

All that crap doesn't matter

Faneca was one of the best ever at pulling down the line and leading the way for the running back. Kemo is not that good at it so they shouldn't let him do it as much

The_WARDen
07-09-2009, 07:46 AM
You joined in April of this year - if you were bashed before last season, it wasn't here, by my reckoning. :hunch:

there you go...using logic again!

:chuckle:

Steel Head
07-09-2009, 07:52 AM
there you go...using logic again!

:chuckle:

perhaps i changed my user name?

did you think of that Sherlock?

HometownGal
07-09-2009, 08:03 AM
perhaps i changed my user name?

did you think of that Sherlock?

Perhaps you were banned, registered under a different user name and are flying under the radar using a proxy? :scratchchin:

ordLay tillerSay perhaps?

Steel Head
07-09-2009, 08:04 AM
Perhaps you were banned, registered under a different user name and are flying under the radar using a proxy? :scratchchin:

ordLay tillerSay perhaps?

nah, forgot my password

ps - what is a proxy ?

revefsreleets
07-09-2009, 08:54 AM
Again, you are up to your same old sorry act. Taking pretty simple posts and attempting to put words in my mouth and other posters too.

I never said I think I know more than the Steelers. I never said Arians and Zeriline have dirt on the Rooneys. But you like to become a drama queen and embelish everything said here and think you have to defend you every post. :blah:

I am just making an observation that maybe Zeirline isnt a good fit here, just like Ray Sherman wasnt. I just made an observation that none of Larry Zeirline's O line's in Cleveland or Pittsburgh have been that great. Nor was the Buffalo O line that he was an assistant coach on.

I'm exaggerating for effect.

You ARE inferring that you know something the Steelers coaching staff and FO don't, but it makes no sense to infer that. WHY would the FO keep around a bunch of average coaches? Coaches that don't fit? What purpose would that serve? Why would they purposely short change their own team? They don't need to. There's no reason to. They can seek out whatever type of coach they want, and there's no shortage of up-and-comers who would love to coach on the Steelers staff.

The fact is, what you said MAKES NO SENSE and I think you know it as well as I do but you don't want to backpeddle too much and too obviously...deflecting by turning this back on me is cute, but it in no way mitigates the ridiculousness of your assertion.

revefsreleets
07-09-2009, 08:56 AM
Oh, and the fact that Steel Head has made it to almost 500 posts is TRULY remarkable.

I don't think 600 is in the cards though...

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-09-2009, 09:46 AM
All that crap doesn't matter

Faneca was one of the best ever at pulling down the line and leading the way for the running back. Kemo is not that good at it so they shouldn't let him do it as much

I have to disagree. Just because perennial all pro Alan Faneca is marginally quicker than Kemo is no reason to not let Kemo pull. In fact....Arians has a nice play where he shows motion left with Miller and pulls both Miller and Kemo from the left, to the right side to lead block for the RB.

If Heath Miller pulling all the way from the left end to lead for a RB is enough time, then its more than enough time to have Kemo trap 2 holes over. So, who were you before you forgot the password......Mistah Q???

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-09-2009, 09:50 AM
Personally, I've had the same thoughts on Zierlein and I agree with your train of thought here. :drink:

We'll see this season if the line has improved and if they are still having issues, the Steelers may need to look a little deeper into Zierlein's role and make a change.

Yeah, I think 3 seasons is enough to see if a guy can get his young O linemen to focus enough to be able to block 265lb DT's from the Colts in goal line situations.

If Z is a good NFL coach, he should be able to get this unit up to a point where they are not the subject of scrutiny and ridicule by the majority of the fan base and national sports media.

Steel Head
07-09-2009, 09:51 AM
I have to disagree. Just because perennial all pro Alan Faneca is marginally quicker than Kemo is no reason to not let Kemo pull. In fact....Arians has a nice play where he shows motion left with Miller and pulls both Miller and Kemo from the left, to the right side to lead block for the RB.

If Heath Miller pulling all the way from the left end to lead for a RB is enough time, then its more than enough time to have Kemo trap 2 holes over. So, who were you before you forgot the password......Mistah Q???

I clearly remember several goal line plays getting blown up because Kemo was pulling to slow. In fact it happened on consecutive plays on the 1 yard line where they had to settle on a field goal

I like Kemo in general but dont like seeing his slow pulling on the goal line costing us TDs

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-09-2009, 09:58 AM
I clearly remember several goal line plays getting blown up because Kemo was pulling to slow. In fact it happened on consecutive plays on the 1 yard line where they had to settle on a field goal

I like Kemo in general but dont like seeing his slow pulling on the goal line costing us TDs

Can you remember the game?? I really cant recall that and I normally rewatch the games on my PVR and especially keep track of the line play.

I really dont remember our offense pulling much on the goal line....they seem to do it in space when the LB's have to respect the pass and are not playing close to shoot gaps in goal line situations.

I saw Kemo miss blocks straight ahead vs the Colts and Chargers most notably. He also seems to miss blitz pickups and d-line stunts in pass protection, but he is more than adequate in short pulls of 2 gaps over to the RG spot(b-gap).

Steel Head
07-09-2009, 10:07 AM
Can you remember the game?? I really cant recall that and I normally rewatch the games on my PVR and especially keep track of the line play.

I really dont remember our offense pulling much on the goal line....they seem to do it in space when the LB's have to respect the pass and are not playing close to shoot gaps in goal line situations.

I saw Kemo miss blocks straight ahead vs the Colts and Chargers most notably. He also seems to miss blitz pickups and d-line stunts in pass protection, but he is more than adequate in short pulls of 2 gaps over to the RG spot(b-gap).

I'd have to think about the game (pretty sure it was early in the season)

Kemo made a lot of mistakes but it was his first year starting so he should improve. I love his mean-streak and he is very strong. Being able to continue to build chemistry playing next to Starks and Hartwig should really help him this year.