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mesaSteeler
07-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Big Ben' superior to Eli in every way

July 10, 2009 1:32 PM
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth
Posted by ESPN.com's James Walker

Matt Mosley and the NFC East deal mostly in hype.

In the AFC North, current home of the Lombardi trophy, we deal in reality.

And the reality is New York Giants quarterback Eli Manning doesn't stack up to Ben Roethlisberger of the Pittsburgh Steelers in any way, shape or form.

While Mosley is begging his readers for help to defend Manning, I will present my case for "Big Ben."

For warm-up purposes, let's start with statistics.

Roethlisberger has a higher completion percentage (62.4 to Manning's 55.9), more touchdowns (101 to 98), fewer interceptions (69 to 74), more victories (51 to 42) and a much better career passer rating (89.4 to 76.1) than Manning.

Did I mention Roethlisberger (two) has twice as many championships? You're going to need the entire Manning household (two) to equal Roethlisberger (two) in that category.

Both quarterbacks were taken in the 2004 draft and Roethlisberger got off to a much faster start.

How quickly Mosley and NFC East followers forget Manning was nearly run out of New York during his first few seasons. He lost six of his first seven starts as a rookie and had just one winning season in his first three years.

Now Mosley suddenly thinks the younger Manning deserves to be the highest-paid player in the league with a $120 million contract and an unprecedented $50 million guaranteed.

Manning's highest touchdown total for a season is just 24, yet he deserves the most money? Chalk it up to more NFC East hype.

Dealing in facts, Roethlisberger won 15 games as a rookie, including playoffs, and won his first Super Bowl in his second season. By the way, the Steelers already gave Roethlisberger a $100-plus million contract, because they knew early that Roethlisberger was the real deal. I find it interesting that the Giants haven't displayed the same level of confidence up to this point in their franchise quarterback.

Speaking of the Giants, let's discuss the Plaxico Burress factor.

Burress leaves the Steelers and Roethlisberger becomes an even better player, winning a pair of Super Bowls, including one immediately after Burress bolts Pittsburgh in 2005.

Burress exits New York and the sky falls on Manning and he's never the same quarterback.

It's the same top-flight receiver. It's two quarterbacks put in a similar scenario. Yet Roethlisberger thrives and Manning crumbles. The "Plax factor" cannot be ignored in this debate.

In fact, Manning would've never won his lone Super Bowl title without Burress. Roethlisberger is doing just fine without him.

And forget the argument that Manning does more with less. It's a farce.

Manning has the best offensive line in football and had two 1,000-yard rushers last season in Brandon Jacobs and former Giant Derrick Ward. Elite protection and an elite running game; what more can a quarterback want?

Meanwhile, Roethlisberger has one of the NFL's worst offensive lines and no 1,000-yard rusher in 2008, yet found a way to win Super Bowl XLIII. If you gave Roethlisberger the best offensive line in football and two 1,000-yard rushers, there is no telling the damage the Steelers could do.

In terms of clutch, Manning had one clutch moment while Roethlisberger has already put together a clutch career. The Steelers have never had a losing season with Roethlisberger and he is 8-2 in his career during the playoffs.

Manning is just 4-3 in the playoffs. If you take away his Super Bowl run following the 2007 season, Manning is 0-3 in the postseason.

So who would you want under center in a must-win game: Roethlisberger or Manning?

(Update: Here is Mosley's weak rebuttal in the NFC East blog.)

Blogger Smackdown: Eli vs. Big Ben

July 10, 2009 2:54 PM

Posted by ESPN.com's Matt Mosley

Every now and then, I'm reminded that the NFL created seven other divisions as sort of a neat diversion from the NFC East. Mostly this happens when AFC North blogger James Walker is looking to pad his stats by making unprovoked taunts toward unsuspecting players such as Tony Romo and Eli Manning.

The other day, I made an off-hand remark (imagine that) in a blog entry that I could make the argument that Manning was indeed a better quarterback than Ben Roethlisberger. Of course, that was before I looked at all the data suggesting that I was completely nuts to make that statement. James and his hearty audience took exception to my remark -- and challenged the Beast to an Eli vs. Big Ben throwdown.

Here's what the young Walker had to say on behalf of Big Ben: (Just a repeat of what is a above. Rest of his reply is below - mesa)

Mosley's response: Honestly I felt like James had me on the ropes right up until the time he said, "if you take away [Manning's] Super Bowl run following the 2007 season, Manning is 0-3 in the postseason."

Is that one of the most misguided closing arguments in the history of blogging debates or am I being too harsh? For the sake of this argument, I'm hoping James will allow Manning to retain the crowning achievement of his career. What Manning did in the 2007 playoffs -- especially in the Super Bowl -- redefined him as a quarterback in this league. And by the way, Big Ben would be 0-2 in the playoffs if we took those eight wins away. OK, this is a classic misdirection play that I'm involved in right now, so I'll move away from James' closing argument.

Truth be told, James has a lot more ammunition in terms of numbers, including the two Super Bowl rings that Big Ben's wearing. But seriously, shouldn't you only get a pinky ring when you have a 22.6 passer rating in your first Super Bowl and depend heavily on some very questionable calls to beat the Seahawks? No?

Walker points out Big Ben's quick start to his career, but let's not act like the two quarterbacks were on an equal playing field in 2004. The Steelers were loaded on both sides of the ball, and Roethlisberger was basically asked to manage the team. Manning sat on the bench behind a sputtering Kurt Warner and then he was thrown into the fire midway through the season. People will point to Manning having more interceptions, but that's because he was asked to do more than Big Ben early in his career. Roethlisberger has had the benefit of elite defenses and running games throughout most of his career. That hasn't been the case with Manning. In fact, the Giants' defense had actually put up pedestrian numbers in 2007 before they became a force during the Super Bowl run.

As I pointed out in a recent mailbag, Roethlisberger has taken a staggering 192 sacks in his career, while Manning, in virtually the same amount of games, has taken 120. Big Ben's defenders will point to the fact that he's more mobile than Manning -- and they'll be right. But he still holds onto the ball too long, which puts his offense in tough spots. I love that everyone always refers to how great a fourth-quarter quarterback Roethlisberger is. Well, in many cases, his mistakes are what gave him the opportunity to pull off those comebacks.

Oh, and there's the fact that Roethlisberger pads his stats against the dregs of the AFC North. With a couple of exceptions, the Bengals and Browns have been brutal during Roethlisberger's time in the league. And it's not like their best competition, the Ravens, have been a juggernaut. Since 2004, the Ravens have had seasons of 9-7, 6-10 and 5-11.

Give Manning a crack at those same teams every season, and his numbers would be dramatically different. He came along when the Eagles were a dominant team and the Cowboys and Redskins are much stronger than anything the Bengals and Browns were putting on the field. Yes, I know the Bengals (and even the Browns) had a good season apiece, so don't try to get me on a technicality.

And one more thing: The whole Burress argument was completely unfair. He wasn't the truly elite receiver in Pittsburgh that he became with the Giants. So of course Big Ben's not going to miss him as much as Manning did. And Roethlisberger had an entire offseason to adjust to life without Burress. It happended to Manning overnight.

The only other thing I can think of right now is that Manning handled both the Steelers and Ravens in '08. James, you came out swinging as always -- but you left yourself exposed on several fronts. My winning argument today has to be one of the biggest upsets since Tyson-Douglas. All my best.

Beast Mgt.

Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, New York Giants, Plaxico Burress

Texasteel
07-10-2009, 08:08 PM
Didn't everyone already know that?

Very nice article mesa. Thank You.

klick81
07-10-2009, 08:31 PM
Umm...I don't even need to read this long ass article to know that. But i'll read it anyway :).

NEPAsteeler
07-10-2009, 11:10 PM
Big Ben' superior to Eli in every way

July 10, 2009 1:32 PM
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcnorth
Posted by ESPN.com's James Walker

The only other thing I can think of right now is that Manning handled both the Steelers and Ravens in '08.

Beast Mgt.

Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, New York Giants, Plaxico Burress

Too bad the Giants beat us because of a fluke play at the end of the game.

And Eli didn't exactly "light up the boards" in either game. Like was mentioned in the article, it's a little easier when you have a top notch O-line in front of you.

I'll gladly take Big Ben over Eli Manning anyday.

SC Steeler Steve
07-10-2009, 11:46 PM
I know there is no way under Gods green earth I would trade Big Ben for EITHER Manning.....

Hell for that matter give me Phillip Rivers over Ellie Mae...

JackHammer
07-11-2009, 03:49 AM
I can hear Mercury Morris now:

......don't call me when you're in my town, call me when you're on my block, and I see you next door moving your furniture in.

Eli isn't even in Ben's town :tt03:

Galax Steeler
07-11-2009, 07:48 AM
There is no comparison I would take Ben anyday of the week over that little I don't want to play for the Chargers crybaby Eli.

fansince'76
07-11-2009, 10:04 AM
The only other thing I can think of right now is that Manning handled both the Steelers and Ravens in '08.

Sorry, but Manning didn't "handle" shit that day. We lost that game because we had a long TD pass by Ben called back due to a boneheaded holding penalty against Colon and Harrison being forced into action as a long snapper due to a fluky injury to Greg Warren and snapping the damn ball out of the back of the end zone.

Men of Steel
07-11-2009, 10:20 AM
my respects to Eli... i mean... he doesnt suck.....

but he is not better than BEN.

case closed. :thumbsup:

scsteeler
07-11-2009, 11:14 AM
Oh, and there's the fact that Roethlisberger pads his stats against the dregs of the AFC North. With a couple of exceptions, the Bengals and Browns have been brutal during Roethlisberger's time in the league. And it's not like their best competition, the Ravens, have been a juggernaut. Since 2004, the Ravens have had seasons of 9-7, 6-10 and 5-11.

Give Manning a crack at those same teams every season, and his numbers would be dramatically different. He came along when the Eagles were a dominant team and the Cowboys and Redskins are much stronger than anything the Bengals and Browns were putting on the field. Yes, I know the Bengals (and even the Browns) had a good season apiece, so don't try to get me on a technicality.

If you look at last season those teams that he says makes Ben look good the Browns and Bengals both did a number on the Giants last year.

Browns Kicked their Ass 34-15 in 2008 and they luckily won in OT against the Bengals 26-23 so I don't think Eli would be any better playing these teams twice a year. The fact of the matter is the Steelers have made it their job to win their division each year which gets you in the playoffs. Eli is a good QB but not better than Ben!

X-Terminator
07-11-2009, 12:05 PM
If the Eli slurper really thinks that he would have had a better year behind the Steelers' OL last year, virtually no running game and having to run for his life on almost every play, and end up winning the Super Bowl, then I have a bridge in Timbuktu I'd like to sell him.

Eli is not better than Ben. Period, end of story, time to "Officer Barbrady" this article.

Nothing more to see here folks, more along...

HughC
07-11-2009, 12:58 PM
To say Eli is better than Ben is beyond ridiculous. The top tier of NFL quarterbacks includes Ben, Peyton Manning and Brady. Then there is a second tier with quarterbacks like Warner, Brees and Rivers. Eli is far down the list in a third tier with guys like Jake Delhomme and Matt Hasselbeck.

The only way Eli Manning is ranked among the top NFL quarterbacks is if the list is based solely on the size of the player's contract.

OneForTheToe
07-11-2009, 01:15 PM
To say Eli is better than Ben is beyond ridiculous. The top tier of NFL quarterbacks includes Ben, Peyton Manning and Brady. Then there is a second tier with quarterbacks like Warner, Brees and Rivers. Eli is far down the list in a third tier with guys like Jake Delhomme and Matt Hasselbeck.

The only way Eli Manning is ranked among the top NFL quarterbacks is if the list is based solely on the size of the player's contract.

Well, I agree it is ridiculous to consider Eli better than Ben. However, I have to give Eli a second tier rating nonetheless. He has won a Super Bowl, wherein he had a significant role in the playoff run and subsequent Super Bowl victory. In my mind that keeps him well behind Ben, but also still ahead of the likes of Breezy and Elisabeth Hasselbeck.

onefortheotherhand
07-11-2009, 01:17 PM
overall eli is just your pretty much average, good pocket passing nfl quarterback.

HughC
07-11-2009, 01:41 PM
Well, I agree it is ridiculous to consider Eli better than Ben. However, I have to give Eli a second tier rating nonetheless. He has won a Super Bowl, wherein he had a significant role in the playoff run and subsequent Super Bowl victory. In my mind that keeps him well behind Ben, but also still ahead of the likes of Breezy and Elisabeth Hasselbeck.
I thought the Super Bowl run was mostly fueled by their defense, and on offense it was all about Jacobs and Ward running the ball. I think Eli gets too much credit for the SB win (as do many other quarterbacks); yes, he made the TD pass to Plaxico but let's face it, the pass to Tyree was a blind throw that looked like a wounded duck. Eli finished the year with 23 TD and 20 INT, their offense was held to 17 or fewer points eight times, and in the playoffs they never scored more than 24 points. The way I see it Eli went along for the ride and had a minor role in their playoff run.

I think if you switch Eli with players like Brees or even Hasselbeck the Giants improve, while the Saints or Seahawks regress.

OneForTheToe
07-11-2009, 02:31 PM
I thought the Super Bowl run was mostly fueled by their defense, and on offense it was all about Jacobs and Ward running the ball. I think Eli gets too much credit for the SB win (as do many other quarterbacks); yes, he made the TD pass to Plaxico but let's face it, the pass to Tyree was a blind throw that looked like a wounded duck. Eli finished the year with 23 TD and 20 INT, their offense was held to 17 or fewer points eight times, and in the playoffs they never scored more than 24 points. The way I see it Eli went along for the ride and had a minor role in their playoff run.

I think if you switch Eli with players like Brees or even Hasselbeck the Giants improve, while the Saints or Seahawks regress.

I'm no Eli fan by any means, but he played well down the stretch, for the Gnats, as well as in the Super Bowl. I just think if you buy into the "he was just along for the ride" theory then you are saying the same thing about ELI, that many said about Ben early in his career.

In either case it is not a fair assessment. And Ben is still better by any reasonable measure.

mulldog24
07-11-2009, 04:24 PM
I think Eli is a good QB but he had 1 lucky toss in the SB and all of the sudden he is elite! C-mon man!!! There is no way that Eli even comes close to the performance that Ben had last year with the O-line play and running game we had !!!!!!!!! Ben wins hands down!!!!!!!!

steelers7807
07-11-2009, 06:10 PM
Tonight on NFL network at 8:00 pm is the first Ben vs Eli matchup from 2004.

Psyychoward86
07-11-2009, 07:09 PM
I read the first three lines and decided not read the rest. Duh!

HometownGal
07-11-2009, 07:44 PM
Nice read, mesa - thanks! :drink:

About all I can say here is:

Ben's little toe is superior to Eli's entire being.

Texasteel
07-11-2009, 07:47 PM
Nice read, mesa - thanks! :drink:

About all I can say here is:

Ben's little toe is superior to Eli's entire being.

Your darn right! If Eli had a different last name I don't think anyone would be talking about him.

mesaSteeler
07-12-2009, 08:13 PM
QB debate reaction

July 12, 2009 12:00 PM

Posted by ESPN.com's James Walker

Here is what ESPN.com readers had to say about this weekend's one-sided AFC North versus NFC East quarterback debate between Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning:

Kevin from Chesapeake, Va. writes: Just wanted to say "great job" today in beating down Matt Mosley. Your rebuttal was full of factual info while his response leaned more to continued biased and undo hype. You represented the AFCN well, as usual, and speaking for my brethren, you did us proud. Continue the great work and we in the AFCN look forward to the next "Smackdown." P.S. It was good to see the camaraderie from the Baltimore Ravens, Cincinnati Bengals, and Cleveland Browns fans being represented, showing that just like during the season, you really don't want to face the AFCN.

Josh from Winston Salem, NC writes: James, THANK YOU for stomping on Mosley's argument about Eli Manning. I am so fed up with his blind support of Eli, and you crushed him. So THANK YOU, THANK YOU. Hopefully we don't have to listen to any more of it, and if so, you should come in immediately. Eli has had an immense amount of help, just as much as Roethlisberger but in different areas. And Roethlisberger has thrived when it counted, while Manning's defense held the top 3 offenses in the NFL to 51 combined points in the 2007 NFL playoffs (17 PPG).Matt has never answered my questions about how Tony Romo and Donovan McNabb do a lot more for their team then Eli. When Romo and McNabb aren't playing well, their teams don't win. Eli can just manage a game and have them be fine. Some of that is true for Big Ben, but the Indianapolis Colts game this year is a prime example of Ben not playing well and hindering his team.

Steve from Milltown, NJ writes: Wow JW, You RIPPED Mosley so bad, it was almost cruel. And to top it off, not only did you leave out a whole bunch of stuff you COULD have said, but Mosley had to ASK HIS READERS to help with a response. And he STILL couldn't come up with anything. Nice job representing the AFCN.

Kurt from Devon, PA writes: For the record, I think it'd be nice if you wouldn't lump all of us together as "NFC East fans" and act like we're all sharing an opinion here. I'm a Philadelphia Eagles fan and I think you were pretty much spot on in your Eli/Ben analysis.

Mark from Pittsburgh, PA writes: Excellent post on Big Ben. I read Mosley's response and it is just so pathetic that I couldn't help but send him a comment: "I'm sorry Mr. Mosley, but your rebuttal to James Walker's challenge was nothing but an attempt to misconstrue Walker's statistically relevant post. You said nothing to portray Eli Manning's abilities and only tried to delegitimize each of Walker's points. For the good of your fans, next time try and give any and every support to your own division's quarterback rather than embarrass him by trying to show why ours is not who James says he is."

Antonio Rael from Albuquerque, NM writes: Please remind Matt that Plaxico Burress was injured during most of Roethlisberger's rookie year and Ben never lost a game without him. Also this was just one year before he went to NY so if he wasn't elite then, he was pretty darn close. Ben had the same team as Tommy Maddox and was able to produce better. Lastly did Manning win Super Bowl XLII with the toughest schedule, injured backfield, and a horrid O-line during the year?

Bertrumm R. from Dayton, Ohio writes: Mosley seems to think Eli would rip the AFC North apart, but NY played the north last year, had Plaxico Burress for all four games, and his best passer rating was an 88.2 in an OT win against a terrible Bengals team. His passer rating in a LOSS to an even worse Browns team was 57.1. He threw one TD in each game and finished with four picks as well. That's not exactly setting the division on fire. The giants were 3-1 in those games, but it wasn't because of Eli, as his rating against the north was a less than stellar 77.4.

John from Pittsburgh writes: James I love the argument with Mosley. I have one question for him though. Other than throwing more touchdowns, fewer interceptions, complete a higher percentage of his passes for a higher YPC average, win more games and have a 13.5 point higher QB rating, what has Roethlisburger done to prove he's a better QB, other than win more Superbowls? What has he done?

Pittsburgh Steelers, AFC North, Ben Roethlisberger, NFC East, Eli Manning, debate

Read comments or leave a comment

Edman
07-12-2009, 09:03 PM
Eli handled the Steelers? I wish I watched the same game as him. Eli and Jacobs did jack all evening. A holding penalty wiped out a potential 21-9 lead for the Steelers and how often in a blue moon does a Long Snapper get injured? Those factors plus the effort of the Giants Defense in the 4th won that game for New York, not Eli. Hell, on the whole the Giants Defense won Super Bowl XLII, not Eli. Manning had no business being named the MVP in that game. But because of his name, he got the award.

Eli had a top notch offensive line, a superior running game, and a good defense in 2008. Once he lost Burress, he was mediocre the rest of the season leading up to his late season stinkers against the Cowboys and Eagles.

Ben had the support of a great defense, but he had a lackluster running game, a crap O-Line and the offense has struggled the majority of the season. But when it came to crunch time, Ben performed.

St33lersguy
07-13-2009, 04:38 PM
Atleast this guy uses facts and is willing to give big ben the credit he deserves. Also don't forget Big Ben is superior in escaping the grasp of defenders and extending plays. Eli did that once in his entire life Ben does that multiple times a game.

Indo
07-14-2009, 10:39 AM
I would like to ask this moron 2 questions:

1) Given the exact same situation in this year's SuperBowl, would he rather have Eli or Ben on that final drive?

2) In ANY situation, would he rather have Eli or Brees? Because I'd take Brees over Eli any day...but that's just me

Indo
07-14-2009, 10:41 AM
On the other hand, I must say that Eli became one of my Favorite QBs for just that one game! Anyone who beats the Cheatriots is OK by me!

KeiselPower99
07-14-2009, 07:10 PM
We already knew this but its nice to see some people as see it.

SmashmouthFootball
07-15-2009, 04:55 PM
Ben has superior stats, and more rings. Why is this an argument again? Mosley needs to shut up.