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revefsreleets
07-17-2009, 12:18 PM
Nope, didn't make this one up.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=51162

Could you IMAGINE if Bush had said this? McCain? Sarah Palin? My God, they'd be CRUCIFIED!

What a nimrod. And this dude is in charge of the Iraq War?

We're effed, people...

fansince'76
07-17-2009, 12:21 PM
Uhhh, Palin's a quitter!

(Insert any additional spin or deflection here)

TheWarDen86
07-17-2009, 12:33 PM
"...the only way to avoid that fate is for the government to spend more money."


Tax and spend. That's the Democratic way. I'm not sure why you're so surprised. :noidea:

xfl2001fan
07-17-2009, 12:35 PM
You got it wrong TheWarDen86.

It's spend then tax.

fansince'76
07-17-2009, 12:35 PM
Tax and spend. That's the Democratic way. I'm not sure why you're so surprised. :noidea:

Actually, the new way is spend, spend, spend and then tax. The (massive) tax increases come later and will be referred to as something other than tax increases (see: "Cap and Trade").

fansince'76
07-17-2009, 12:37 PM
It's spend then tax.

Jinks - owe me a Coke! :chuckle:

TheWarDen86
07-17-2009, 12:38 PM
You got it wrong TheWarDen86.

It's spend then tax.

Actually, the new way is spend, spend, spend and then tax. The tax increases come later.

Okay, on the national level it has evolved that way. Here in New Jersey, they're (Corslime and Co.) still practicing the traditional method.

xfl2001fan
07-17-2009, 12:38 PM
You're in luck fansince'76:

I put one on laway there in Denver. It should be in one of the Machines in your building. You can get it out by paying the $1.25 holding fee.

Fire Haley
07-17-2009, 12:39 PM
Worth repeating....

Giddy-up


Dems Push $700 Million Welfare Program for Horses

“The House is expected to take up legislation today that seeks to protect wild horses and burros under federal care, but Republicans are bashing the bill as a waste of federal resources in the midst of tough economic times for many Americans…”

“Resources Committee ranking member Doc Hastings (R-Wash.) plans to attack the bill's pricetag, criticizing it as a ‘$700 million welfare program for wild horses’ that comes at a time when he thinks the federal government should focus more of its resources on deficit reduction or job creation.”

“‘There are serious issues facing our country right now and it’s absurd that Democratic leaders believe that spending $700 million to pamper wild horses is the best use of our time and Americans’ tax dollars,’ Hastings said in a statement yesterday. ‘Instead of restoring American mustangs, let’s restore American jobs and put the horsepower back into our economy.’”

http://republicanleader.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=137945

TheWarDen86
07-17-2009, 12:40 PM
Worth repeating....

Giddy-up


Dems Push $700 Million Welfare Program for Horses

“The House is expected to take up legislation today that seeks to protect wild horses and burros under federal care, but Republicans are bashing the bill as a waste of federal resources in the midst of tough economic times for many Americans…”

“Resources Committee ranking member Doc Hastings (R-Wash.) plans to attack the bill's pricetag, criticizing it as a ‘$700 million welfare program for wild horses’ that comes at a time when he thinks the federal government should focus more of its resources on deficit reduction or job creation.”

“‘There are serious issues facing our country right now and it’s absurd that Democratic leaders believe that spending $700 million to pamper wild horses is the best use of our time and Americans’ tax dollars,’ Hastings said in a statement yesterday. ‘Instead of restoring American mustangs, let’s restore American jobs and put the horsepower back into our economy.’”

http://republicanleader.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=137945


:doh:

Fire Haley
07-17-2009, 12:41 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_orkXxp0bhEA/Seuzu6qM9yI/AAAAAAAARu8/nqUwDFO4ApY/s400/090419-boat4s.jpg

fansince'76
07-17-2009, 12:42 PM
“The House is expected to take up legislation today that seeks to protect wild horses and burros under federal care, but Republicans are bashing the bill as a waste of federal resources in the midst of tough economic times for many Americans…”

And I got ten bucks that says the MSM make the Republicans out to be the bad guys on this. Those baby-killing, puppy-drowning fascists hate horsies too!

revefsreleets
07-17-2009, 12:44 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_orkXxp0bhEA/Seuzu6qM9yI/AAAAAAAARu8/nqUwDFO4ApY/s400/090419-boat4s.jpg

Well, that about sums it up!

TheWarDen86
07-17-2009, 12:44 PM
And I got ten bucks that says the MSM make the Republicans out to be the bad guys on this. Those baby-killing, puppy-drowning fascists hate horsies too!

At least Rappin' Ron can say he actually rode a damn horse.

TheWarDen86
07-17-2009, 01:03 PM
Well......., it would appear that I murdered this thread. :chuckle:

Sorry. :wink02:

Fire Haley
07-17-2009, 01:28 PM
Obamageddon: Yes We Can!


Stimulus road signs in Pennsylvania cost $60,000

The Pennsylvania Department of Transportation is spending $60,000 of its stimulus money on $2,000 road signs to highlight projects funded by the massive economic recovery package.

The large green signs mark about 30 of what PennDOT calls ''higher visibility projects'' statewide. Each denotes the project is funded by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act and features the act's logo.

Nationwide, several million dollars are being spent producing the signs.

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_5signs.6961476jul17,0,342599.story

TheWarDen86
07-17-2009, 01:35 PM
Obamageddon: Yes We Can!


Stimulus road signs in Pennsylvania cost $60,000

The Pennsylvania Department of Transportation is spending $60,000 of its stimulus money on $2,000 road signs to highlight projects funded by the massive economic recovery package.

The large green signs mark about 30 of what PennDOT calls ''higher visibility projects'' statewide. Each denotes the project is funded by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act and features the act's logo.

Nationwide, several million dollars are being spent producing the signs.

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_5signs.6961476jul17,0,342599.story


Ahh, "feel good" money. If they want us to feel good, dtich the tax ideas on alcohol and let US worry about it.

Fire Haley
07-17-2009, 01:41 PM
or maybe take that $60,000 and fix a few potholes with the money instead of signs telling us how wonderful things are

KeiselPower99
07-17-2009, 02:20 PM
I have nothing to say to the welfare horse system. Just the simple thought of it makes my head wanna explode.

revefsreleets
07-17-2009, 02:28 PM
Brilliant! I think we should launch a third stimulus of say, oh, I don't know, another trillion or so, spending on nothing but signs and ads and propaganda pimping how effective the other two stimulus packages were (n't). And when THAT stimulus fails along with the other two, we can spend ANOTHER trillion on government committees to study why the first three failed, which will in turn lead to ANOTHER trillion for a fifth stimulus...I'm sure THAT one will work, though.

SteelersinCA
07-17-2009, 02:40 PM
Good thing I decided not to buy a house, this bullshit is going to kill us all.

SCSTILLER
07-17-2009, 03:25 PM
or maybe take that $60,000 and fix a few potholes with the money instead of signs telling us how wonderful things are

Nah, they would just repave a road that was perfectly smooth. I was in northern Georgia last weekend for a getaway and my friend and I were driving to a bike trail. We turned off this bumpy, pot hole filled (reminded of W. Pa) onto this beautiful road that looked like it had been paved in the last few years and it was like driving on glass. Then we saw the sign, future repaving project brought to you by, then the other sign, Economic Recovery and Bull Crap Act. Just goes to show the money is being wasted, paving a perfectly good road while the other ones around it were crap. Ahhh, gotta love the government's processes!

revefsreleets
07-17-2009, 03:47 PM
My liberal lawyer friend in DC actually tried to DEFEND the "Save the Horsies" act with a variation of "Bu-bu-bu-Bush"...his variation (which he used over and over again, ad nauseum) was "Bu-bu-bu...the GOP wasted money, too!".

That is NOT a defense...that's a deflection.

SteelersinCA
07-17-2009, 04:21 PM
Wasn't that the problem/platform Obama ran on? Bush is wasting money, we aren't going to? Now it's a contest to see who can spend the most.

St33lersguy
07-17-2009, 06:02 PM
Typical Joe Biden, the only person that can make Ray Lewis & Chad Johnson look smart

43Hitman
07-17-2009, 07:12 PM
Typical Joe Biden, the only person that can make Ray Lewis & Chad Johnson look smart

Quote of the year right there folks.


:laughing:

fansince'76
07-17-2009, 07:12 PM
Good thing I decided not to buy a house, this bullshit is going to kill us all.

I just closed on a house earlier this afternoon. In for a penny, in for a pound at this point. I just have to hope that the madness stops. :hope:

43Hitman
07-17-2009, 07:19 PM
I just closed on a house earlier this afternoon. In for a penny, in for a pound at this point. I just have to hope that the madness stops. :hope:



Congrats and good luck!

I bought my first house in Dec of 07' lost my job Nov of 08'...Weeeee!!! what fun. I did find out today though that I will get an extension on my unemployment benefits and I can go get a degree in a new field and still get my benefits. So wish me luck. Changing professions at 35 is a scary venture to say the least. Gonna get my degree in network systems administration. Basically setting up networks and keeping them secure. Hopefully I'll be able to turn this into something that can put me on the front lines of the cyber warfare we are in with North Korea and other countries.

fansince'76
07-17-2009, 07:24 PM
Congrats and good luck!

I bought my first house in Dec of 07' lost my job Nov of 08'...Weeeee!!! what fun. I did find out today though that I will get an extension on my unemployment benefits and I can go get a degree in a new field and still get my benefits. So wish me luck. Changing professions at 35 is a scary venture to say the least. Gonna get my degree in network systems administration. Basically setting up networks and keeping them secure. Hopefully I'll be able to turn this into something that can put me on the front lines of the cyber warfare we are in with North Korea and other countries.

Thanks! I'm really sorry to hear about that. My biggest fear is that since I've finally taken the plunge to stop renting, I'll wind up getting a pink slip. However, my company has weathered the shitty economy pretty well in comparison to many others so far, so hopefully I'll be OK. :hope: I also think the housing market in my area (Denver) is about as low as it's going to go, so now was the time to buy. Coincidentally, I am a systems admin myself.

Good luck - I'm sure things will turn around for you! :drink:

HometownGal
07-17-2009, 08:54 PM
or maybe take that $60,000 and fix a few potholes with the money instead of signs telling us how wonderful things are

Hell would freeze over before PennDot would spend that loot on the sinkholes around here. :jerkit:

Typical Joe Biden, the only person that can make Ray Lewis & Chad Johnson look smart

:rofl::toofunny::rofl::thumbsup:

Horses asses wanting to spend money on horses - seems pretty logical to me. :noidea::chuckle:

43Hitman
07-17-2009, 09:02 PM
Thanks! I'm really sorry to hear about that. My biggest fear is that since I've finally taken the plunge to stop renting, I'll wind up getting a pink slip. However, my company has weathered the shitty economy pretty well in comparison to many others so far, so hopefully I'll be OK. :hope: I also think the housing market in my area (Denver) is about as low as it's going to go, so now was the time to buy. Coincidentally, I am a systems admin myself.

Good luck - I'm sure things will turn around for you! :drink:

Thanks, I am confident things will turn around eventually. At least now I have some sort of goal instead of just wondering what the hell I am going to do.

stlrtruck
07-18-2009, 08:45 AM
So let me understand this from a pesronal finance level:

I'm in debt, money is tight, but if I go spending more money that I don't have then I'll get myself out of debt?

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
07-18-2009, 03:00 PM
So let me understand this from a pesronal finance level:

I'm in debt, money is tight, but if I go spending more money that I don't have then I'll get myself out of debt?

I am going to call my credit card company right now and tell them I am practicing Obamanomics.

HometownGal
07-18-2009, 08:32 PM
http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0107/BidenImage3.jpg

St33lersguy
07-19-2009, 07:24 AM
http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0107/BidenImage3.jpg

:toofunny:

That's fitting for Joke Biden

KeiselPower99
07-19-2009, 02:25 PM
Brilliant! I think we should launch a third stimulus of say, oh, I don't know, another trillion or so, spending on nothing but signs and ads and propaganda pimping how effective the other two stimulus packages were (n't). And when THAT stimulus fails along with the other two, we can spend ANOTHER trillion on government committees to study why the first three failed, which will in turn lead to ANOTHER trillion for a fifth stimulus...I'm sure THAT one will work, though.

Wow. That is a government response right there.

revefsreleets
07-19-2009, 02:39 PM
Wow. That is a government response right there.

When all that doesn't work, we can just blame the whole thing on Bush...or, if we're REALLY vapid and empty and have NO idea what's going on, we'll blame it on Sarah Palin.

tony hipchest
07-19-2009, 06:20 PM
bu..bu.. but... biden? :toofunny:

MACH1
07-19-2009, 06:26 PM
Bu..bu...bu...Its not my fault I promise

revefsreleets
07-20-2009, 08:16 AM
Should we ignore Biden? He IS the second in command. Why should we ignore the VP when SO much attention was (and still is) lavished on Sarah Palin?

I don't get it...calling attention to the foibles and follies of a SITTING, in-power VP is off-limits, but ripping up a losing VP candidate who currently doesn't even hold an office is fine?

Oooooookaaaaaaaay.......

KeiselPower99
07-20-2009, 09:10 AM
This country is full of hypocrits.

tony hipchest
07-20-2009, 09:23 PM
:shout: "ATTENTION... discussion of any republican is no longer allowed" (being that them holding any significant office is a thing of the past and there are none left to currently talk about).

so what the ribs are saying is that even though they have declared the gop the winners in the '10 and '12 elections, discussions of their dream candidates are invalid? that may work well in iran, but isnt a very democratic way to discuss politics here in america.

(i know it burns some that they will be forced to support sarah by default, but it is what it is.... she brought all the lavished attention upon herself). if people wanna write letters to letterman to tell him to quit making jokes and try to shut him up, then by all means, knock yourself out.

as for the topic at hand, david bowie wrote a song about it-

Ch-ch-ch-ch-Cheney
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Cheney
Don't tell t hem to grow up and out of it
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Cheney
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Cheney
Where's your shame
You've left us up to our necks in it
Time may change me
But you can't trace time

:toofunny: now theres bu... bu... bu..."change" you can believe in. just be glad biden isnt the one really running the show (or better yet, sister sarah).

the hypocricy lies in telling all others what they "should ignore", hence the repeated laughture.

stlrtruck
07-21-2009, 07:15 AM
:shout: "ATTENTION... discussion of any republican is no longer allowed" (being that them holding any significant office is a thing of the past and there are none left to currently talk about).

so what the ribs are saying is that even though they have declared the gop the winners in the '10 and '12 elections, discussions of their dream candidates are invalid? that may work well in iran, but isnt a very democratic way to discuss politics here in america.

(i know it burns some that they will be forced to support sarah by default, but it is what it is.... she brought all the lavished attention upon herself). if people wanna write letters to letterman to tell him to quit making jokes and try to shut him up, then by all means, knock yourself out.

as for the topic at hand, david bowie wrote a song about it-



:toofunny: now theres bu... bu... bu..."change" you can believe in. just be glad biden isnt the one really running the show (or better yet, sister sarah).

the hypocricy lies in telling all others what they "should ignore", hence the repeated laughture.

That's why I believe we should fire them all and vote for individuals who have never been to DC, are non party affiliated with the exception of doing what is right for Americans and Legal Immigrants!

revefsreleets
07-21-2009, 08:06 AM
Biden and Obama are in office. This is their mess...there are no excuses.

Please try to defend THEM if you can (An unenviable task at BEST). I realize the term is overused, but by attacking Palin or Bush as a defense, all you are doing is setting up a GOP straw man (or woman, as the case may be) and knocking him (or her) down.

For the 1,000th time, that's not a real defense...

I realize why you are doing this Tony, and, like I said, these are hard times to be a Democrat defending these two nincompoops in office, but the point remains: Please stick to defending the President and VP and refrain from transparent deflection tactics (if you can).

For example: Can you please explain to us why what Joe Biden said makes sense to you WITHOUT using the names Bush, Palin or McCain?

St33lersguy
07-21-2009, 10:55 AM
Biden and Obama are in office. This is their mess...there are no excuses.

Please try to defend THEM if you can (An unenviable task at BEST). I realize the term is overused, but by attacking Palin or Bush as a defense, all you are doing is setting up a GOP straw man (or woman, as the case may be) and knocking him (or her) down.

For the 1,000th time, that's not a real defense...

I realize why you are doing this Tony, and, like I said, these are hard times to be a Democrat defending these two nincompoops in office, but the point remains: Please stick to defending the President and VP and refrain from transparent deflection tactics (if you can).

For example: Can you please explain to us why what Joe Biden said makes sense to you WITHOUT using the names Bush, Palin or McCain?

Nice post, couldn't have said it better myself.
As for Tony: It is not Bush or Palin's fault Obama and co. is ridiculously spending & increasing our debt while at the same time defying common sense.

fansince'76
07-21-2009, 06:00 PM
:shout: "ATTENTION... discussion of any republican is no longer allowed" (being that them holding any significant office is a thing of the past and there are none left to currently talk about).

so what the ribs are saying is that even though they have declared the gop the winners in the '10 and '12 elections, discussions of their dream candidates are invalid? that may work well in iran, but isnt a very democratic way to discuss politics here in america.

(i know it burns some that they will be forced to support sarah by default, but it is what it is.... she brought all the lavished attention upon herself). if people wanna write letters to letterman to tell him to quit making jokes and try to shut him up, then by all means, knock yourself out.

as for the topic at hand, david bowie wrote a song about it-

Ch-ch-ch-ch-Cheney
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Cheney
Don't tell t hem to grow up and out of it
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Cheney
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Cheney
Where's your shame
You've left us up to our necks in it
Time may change me
But you can't trace time

:toofunny: now theres bu... bu... bu..."change" you can believe in. just be glad biden isnt the one really running the show (or better yet, sister sarah).

the hypocricy lies in telling all others what they "should ignore", hence the repeated laughture.

How's that "stimulus" working out? :coffee:

KeiselPower99
07-21-2009, 11:42 PM
Since January how much has the DEMOCRATS spent?? And how much was spent when Bush was in office all 8 years??

tony hipchest
07-22-2009, 12:53 AM
Since January how much has the DEMOCRATS spent?? And how much was spent when Bush was in office all 8 years??

this again?

ho hum....

its about 21 trillion or so for bu.. bu... bu... bush (give or take a couple of trillion, after all, nobody was really even counting until january 09 even though we are still running off of his budget until october).


http://www.mercatus.org/PublicationDetails.aspx?id=26426



Section 1. Overall Federal Numbers under President Bush

During his eight years in office, President Bush oversaw a large increase in government spending, as seen in Table 1:


In fact, as seen in Table 2, President Bush increased government spending more than any of the six presidents preceding him, including LBJ.

In his last term in office, President Bush increased discretionary outlays by an estimated 48.6 percent. The largest increase took place in his last year and included, among other things, the $700 billion financial industry bailout bill (TARP) and the federal takeover of Government-Sponsored Enterprises Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

Figure 1 illustrates that during his eight years in office, President Bush spent almost twice as much as his predecessor, President Clinton.

Adjusted for inflation, in eight years, President Clinton increased the federal budget by 11 percent. In eight years, President Bush increased it by a whopping 104 percent.


Conclusion

Republicans often claim to be the party of smaller government. Many Republicans would express support for Ronald Reagan’s observation: “Growth, prosperity and ultimately human fulfillment, are created from the bottom up, not the government down.”2 Unfortunately, once Republicans are elected to political office, they tend to fall into the Washington trap of assuming that more federal spending will solve the nation’s problems. Certainly, President Bush appears to have fallen into this trap. So did the Republicans in Congress.

Harvard economist Jeffrey Frankel argues that we should not be surprised by the discrepancy between the rhetoric and the actual policies of Republicans. Frankel even argues that “the Republicans have become the party of fiscal irresponsibility, trade restriction, big government, and bad microeconomics.”3 Frankel is incorrect about the microeconomics—Republicans generally pursue sounder tax policies than Democrats, for example—but when it comes to big government spending, the Bush Administration seems to have gone out of its way to confirm Frankel’s point.

MACH1
07-22-2009, 01:01 AM
http://www.city-journal.org/assets/images/18_3-mkb4.jpg

revefsreleets
07-22-2009, 08:10 AM
I see, I see...so, in essence, Tony, you CANNOT defend the current administration WITHOUT strawman attacks. I see absolutely NOTHING in your last post other than the tired stale old "Bu-b-bu-Bush".

See, watch how a "starter" defends the guy he voted for in less than 100 words, and WITHOUT resorting to fallacies.

Bush had deficits because he was fighting two wars that cost a LOT of money. Remove the wars, and you have a balanced budget.

tony hipchest
07-22-2009, 11:53 AM
your post is a fallacy. keisel asked a question-


And how much was spent when Bush was in office all 8 years??

i answered it.

ah, yes.... bush's wars. funny how you think only republicans should be able to speak of them.

anyways the rest (and majority) of america offered up their opinions of them at the polls.

revefsreleets
07-22-2009, 12:12 PM
And how's that working out for them so far?

7 million jobs lost. A continued recession. Record deficits in RECORD time. And more to come.

I ask you ONCE AGAIN please defend Biden's statements without resorting to irrelevant drivel on Bush, McCain or the incredibly inane diversions directed at the LEAST relevant person to all of this, Sarah Palin.

As for the war, "Bush's War" as you put it, the Democrats were elected into a majority in 2006 to END those wars, yet....2009 is half over and? Anything on that? (No Bush. No McCain. No Palin. No GOP. Simply defend Biden's remarks, and as a bonus, care to answer why the Democrats haven't gotten us out of Iraq yet?)

tony hipchest
07-22-2009, 12:25 PM
I ask you ONCE AGAIN please defend Biden's statements without resorting to irrelevant drivel on Bush, McCain or the incredibly inane diversions directed at the LEAST relevant person to all of this, Sarah Palin.

so you admit bringing up bush, mccain, and palin in your OP was irrelevant drivel?

good. were making progress. :drink:

lemme go read the actuall article (as opposed to the over the edge spin and rhetoric) and see if i can put this latest bidenism into context.... :mg:

tony hipchest
07-22-2009, 12:50 PM
I know, that the status quo is simply not acceptable,” Biden said at the event on Thursday in Alexandria, Va. “It’s totally unacceptable. And it’s completely unsustainable. Even if we wanted to keep it the way we have it now. It can’t do it financially.”

“We’re going to go bankrupt as a nation,” Biden said.

i tend to agree. regardless of who is in charge all the baby boomers drawing their social security and medical coverage is looming on the horizon.

the best way i can describe it is were still using privately built dirt roads (in terms of health coverage) and the govt is gonna take on the huge cost to pave them all and build highways (you will still have choice of which route to travel). yes it is a huge undertaking, but one that will pay off 100 years into the future.

as for iraq, i certainly hope we arent stuck in a never ending quagmire but i do realize we will never cure the disease that is radical islam.

it almost seems our soldiers are decoy ducks sent over there as targets for the breeding terrorists. the thinking seems to be that its better to lose american lives over there as opposed to here on our homeland, kinda like picking the lesser of 2 evils.

we cant cure the disease and we dont wanna look like the cut n run war starters.

rock and a hard place. atleast if we can serve up bin ladens head on a platter in afghanistan and turn iraq into some semblance of a democratic nation, we can take away a moral victory.

still doesnt get to the root of the "big picture" problem, though.

KeiselPower99
07-22-2009, 12:55 PM
Bush had 2 wars to pay for and that is why his was so high. Personally I think we can all agree that too much spending is a bad thing. You dont get yourself out of debt by spending more.

tony hipchest
07-22-2009, 01:29 PM
You dont get yourself out of debt by spending more.which country do you live in?

if thats the case why do so many corporations and small businesses want take breaks so that they can spend more to get themselves out of debt?

people spend money they dont have all the time as an investment to better their future. capitalisms backbone is lines of credit. its the american way.

its pretty evident that our american elected officials run the government how americans run their lives and how we run our economic system. its kindve a cultural thing.

we live in the culture of debt. there is no denying that.

when a family of 7 in the private sector buys a health care plan, they typically get group coverage as opposed to 7 seperate policies because it is cheaper and more efficient. the kids are not excluded because they dont contribute to the hosehold income.

yes, its an overly simplistic way of looking at it, but that is the basic premise of what is going on here.

KeiselPower99
07-22-2009, 01:34 PM
Ya know Tony I have to agree with ya on that one. We dolive in debtall the time if you are buying a car a house anything.

revefsreleets
07-22-2009, 03:07 PM
But if I have $10,000 in credit card debt, and I don't have a job, i don't "solve" my problems by grabbing another 10k in credit cards and running them up buying clothes. That's pretty much what the stimulus is: It's a bunch of money WE DON'T HAVE spent on a bunch of crap WE DON'T need, with no real way to pay for it.

The corporate example is a fail. Those corporations have balance sheets that show a profit or a break even or they go bankrupt or sell. They don't ask for tax breaks to get out of debt, and I actually have no idea where such a silly idea even came from. VERY poor example...

All your responses are a big fail, especially telling ME that there is some lesson for me to learn from the fact that YOUR only defense for everything so far is for YOU to blame Bush BECAUSE it's irrelevant. Even in the most twisted spins that makes no sense, and in this case its simply stupid. You admit it's irrelevant yet claim a point because it's so? What the eff ever, man...just lame lame lame...

Back on the bench...the starters are still playing in this game.

KeiselPower99
07-22-2009, 04:44 PM
I was basically giving him the argument on debt not the whole thing.

revefsreleets
07-23-2009, 08:04 AM
It still in no way explains anything Biden said. It was double-speak, and he defended it with even more double-speak. You can't defend nonsense with an even foggier cloud of nonsense...it just doesn't work.

SteelMember
07-23-2009, 10:43 AM
Sorry Tony, I have to agree with Revs on that. I don't think any successful business, especially small business, is going to take on more debt to stay afloat. Usually, imo, they go line by line to try and reduce costs. Where do you think all of the unemployment comes from? A workforce is a major expense. You keep only what is absolutely necessary to keep the doors open. :noidea:

Wasn't that the problem/platform Obama ran on? Bush is wasting money, we aren't going to? Now it's a contest to see who can spend the most.

Somewhere lost in translation, the campaign tag line "change you can believe in" really meant Change what you believe in.

revefsreleets
07-23-2009, 10:47 AM
I didn't see the part about the "contest". That's already over. Obama nearly tripled Bush's debt in 6 months. What took a GOP President 8 years to build, Obama squished like a grape in 180 days.

Indo
07-23-2009, 12:40 PM
I try to stay out of these political debates---honestly....but

Here's the deal----(and, make no mistake, I am still educating myself on this matter, so by no means do I claim to be an expert...)

Somebody suggested to me that I read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Catastrophe-Dick-Morris/dp/006177104X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248370027&sr=1-1#

It is written by Dick Morris, who was a political advisor to Slick Willy Clinton.
One can infer the subject matter from the title---but also look at the contents and excerpts...

Morris goes into a whole discussion of Keynesian economics which suggests that economies are stimulated by infusion of $$$ by the government (sound familiar?). Read about Keynes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

Apparently the Japanese and several other countries have tried similar Stimulus Packages----they didn't work. Why does this administration think it will in this country?

I realize that this reference is just Wikipedia, but if you google "Keynesian economics" you will get a whole slew of references...

Anywho, I will admit that I have not yet finished Morris' book, but I suggest that Everyone on this board read it---

revefsreleets
07-23-2009, 02:30 PM
The Japanese stimulus failed for the exact same reason ours is failing. The money was mis-applied, and it was politicized.

What we NEED to do is provide relief for the 7 million who have been unemployed (and there will still be more, because the stimulus bill did exactly ZERO to stem that tide), provide deep (but temporary) tax breaks for the purchase of US manufactured goods (cash for clunkers sucks...it's so narrow and shallow that only about 130,000 new cars will be sold, and most will probably be foreign), tax breaks for ALL homebuyers, (again, deep but temporary...use it or lose it). Money needs to be invested in things that have IMMEDIATE effects...most of the POS stimulus bill won't take hold until late 2010, and the recession will be long over by then.

What they NEED to do now is roll the whole thing back. It failed...all it will do now is add long-term debt. But they'll never ever admit failure. Just blame Bush and whistle past the graveyard...

tony hipchest
07-23-2009, 07:53 PM
But if I have $10,000 in credit card debt, and I don't have a job, i don't "solve" my problems by grabbing another 10k in credit cards and running them up buying clothes. That's pretty much what the stimulus is: It's a bunch of money WE DON'T HAVE spent on a bunch of crap WE DON'T need, with no real way to pay for it.

The corporate example is a fail. Those corporations have balance sheets that show a profit or a break even or they go bankrupt or sell. They don't ask for tax breaks to get out of debt, and I actually have no idea where such a silly idea even came from. VERY poor example...

All your responses are a big fail, especially telling ME that there is some lesson for me to learn from the fact that YOUR only defense for everything so far is for YOU to blame Bush BECAUSE it's irrelevant. Even in the most twisted spins that makes no sense, and in this case its simply stupid. You admit it's irrelevant yet claim a point because it's so? What the eff ever, man...just lame lame lame...

Back on the bench...the starters are still playing in this game.:toofunny:

are you kidding me? you cant be freaking serious. i'd like to think you are just playing "dumb" in this solo game of :jerkit: you delusionally think you can send people to the bench, but im beginning to have my doubts.

are you really denying debt and tax breaks all the way up from the biggest corporations, down to the smallest of businesses?

if you dont know where those silly ideas come from you must not know much about capitalism, the GOP or their signature economic theory of "trickle down economics".

i'll assume you understand the premise of TARP and 0 to low interest govt. loans 9although i may be going too far out on a limb there.

you know about venture capitalism right? corporate lines of credit and corporate tax? you do know that businesses use these tools to grow and expand? you do realize that our entire finacial system is built upon selling debt, lines of credit, futures, specualtion, etc...?

selling cotton, tobacco, the automobile, planes, computers, microchips etc. was once our financial staple. things have changed.

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/till-debt-do-us-apart/417509/0

Till debt do us apart

•Credit risk

If your fund buys corporate bonds, it is essentially purchasing a claim to the assets of the company. Just as with individuals, corporations take on debt in the hope to grow. Sometimes, they take on too much or their operations start to perform poorly and they are unable to repay their debts. This is just like someone taking on too much credit card debt and then having to file for bankruptcy. At times, companies will file for bankruptcy and won't be able to repay the principal on their debt. This means that the investor can theoretically lose his entire investment, although this is not a particularly common occurrence. In such a case, when the organisation that issued the bonds goes out of business for some reason, it will obviously not be able to fulfill any more interest payments or otherwise redeem the bond's value, creating a credit risk

This risk increases/decreases depending on the reliability and stability of the company. Non-government or corporate bonds carry more of this type of risk than bonds issued by the government or government-backed organisations which are usually considered credit risk free as one does not expect the government to go bankrupt and shut shop.


http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P107022.asp?Printer

A corporate tax break that could benefit you


With the best of intentions, lawmakers in Washington, D.C., hope to create jobs by letting U.S. multinationals bring home foreign earnings this year at bargain tax rates to invest on the home front.
Many sprawling international companies based in the United States park foreign earnings abroad to postpone the tax payments they'd have to make to Uncle Sam if they transferred the money back here. Washingtons fix, known as the American Jobs Creation Act of 2004, takes away the tax obstacle.

The bad news is that it doesn't look like the law will create that many jobs, despite rosy estimates that as much as $418 billion could flow back.

The good news is that there's a way for investors to potentially make money because of the law.

Many companies poised to bring back buckets of cash also happen to be buying back stock and raising dividends aggressively. These are two signals that suggest a stock will produce above-average gains.

If companies like these -- Procter & Gamble (PG, news, msgs), Pfizer (PFE, news, msgs) and Johnson & Johnson (JNJ, news, msgs) are examples -- do in fact bring home lots of greenbacks, that means their shareholder-friendly buybacks and dividend hikes could get more intense, or last longer.

True, companies aren't supposed to use repatriated cash for buybacks and dividend hikes. And technically, they won't. But in the real world, cash is the ultimate fungible asset. Bring a little back to shore up your capital-spending budget, and what you had designated for plants and equipment is freed up for buybacks and dividends.

The rundown
Before we get to more on the investing angles, heres a quick summary of the law, thanks to Pat McConnell at Bear Stearns (BSC, news, msgs).

The act takes away a tax deferral on overseas income and lets companies bring money back within one year at a 5.25% tax rate, well below the typical 35% rate.The money must be spent on things like capital investments in the United States, advertising, hiring and training, research and development, computers and software, licensing, acquisitions, improving financial strength and funding pension plans. The law doesn't provide hard deadlines for spending.

Forbidden uses include certain kinds of executive compensation, special dividends, stock repurchases and taxes.

Problem is, there's no provision to trace cash once it comes back. This gives companies a lot of wiggle room. So ultimately, the cash could wind up supporting any of the forbidden uses.

To find out what all this means outside of Washington, I polled the top 20 companies that can repatriate money and the analysts who cover them.


these are just 2 of many examples (the quickest ones i found w/o wasting too much time).

the literature on this is endless. while pretty much common knowledge for me, it is just fingersteps and about 5 seconds away for you if you wanna start learning.

while youre at it you may wanna enter stock symbol NESN for a recent quote. its good for a chuckle.

revefsreleets
07-24-2009, 08:13 AM
Here's what you originally said: if thats the case why do so many corporations and small businesses want take breaks so that they can spend more to get themselves out of debt?


Companies want tax breaks NOT to get out of debt, but to prop up their bottom line. If 35% of you profits are automatically eaten up before you do ANYTHING, why WOULDN'T you try and get that rate dropped? It's the highest tax rate in the World.

Regardless, that is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to what the government is doing. They are deep in debt. That debt is growing. What the government is trying to do can't even be DONE by a private company, because once they'd reach the level of insolvency the US government has reached, nobody BUT a government would loan them money. The government is literally throwing good money after bad...it has nothing to do with a "culture of debt", and everything to do with spending money on the wrong things at the wrong time just so they can say they are doing something.

Instead of just blindly backing Obama, why don't you READ some of the other solutions I offered up? They are more fiscally responsible. They actually HELP the situation by addressing actual NEEDS and in a timely basis, not at he end of 2010.

My analogy stands: The government is deep in debt (10k in credit card hoc), deficit is building and they are spending more than is coming in (unemployed) and their master plan is to build roads NEXT year (buying clothes for a job they don't have and may never will). No company would try to build new buildings if they were bleeding cash and not profitable. They'd cut jobs. They'd sell assets. They'd NOT add, they'd subtract. To suggest otherwise is not only foolish, it suggests no working knowledge whatsoever of how the private sector actually works.

It's ridiculously backward, and does NOTHING to help the current situation we are in. Biden is a fool. Your examples about private business don't fit because this is a government model we're working on.

The government needs to end the stimulus NOW. It didn't work, it won't work, and by time the money actually hits the streets, the recession will be over (it'll be like buying a whole wardrobe of police uniforms and then getting hired to be a fireman). All it does is compound long-term debt...

MACH1
07-27-2009, 08:10 PM
http://arkjournal.com/uploaded_images/IDIOT-726156.jpg