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Edman
07-28-2009, 05:09 PM
*The following is Extremely offensive. If you cannot handle things like this, please leave the topic now.*


A 9-year old Brazilian Girl was sexually assaulted by her stepfather since she was six. So much that she became pregnant with twins. She had an therapeutic abortion as a result. The bishop excommunicated her mother (but not Step-Daddy Dearest Rapist) for going through with the abortion, but was overturned, now 'his holiness' is arguing the reversal, condemning the mom for going through with the abortion.

http://www.progressivepuppy.com/the_progressive_puppy/2009/07/pope-benedict-child-rape-is-better-than-therapeutic-abortion.html

So in esscense, the Pope supports the rapist instead of the little girl that suffered. Bravo, Benedict, Bravo. Holy Shit in the finest, folks.

SteelCityMom
07-28-2009, 05:18 PM
I just don't have words for how angry the whole story makes me.

I feel so bad for the young girl. I couldn't even imagine. Best wishes to her and her mother in the future. I hope they're able to get through this difficult time, with or without the Popes approval.

Preacher
07-28-2009, 05:34 PM
*The following is Extremely offensive. If you cannot handle things like this, please leave the topic now.*


A 9-year old Brazilian Girl was sexually assaulted by her stepfather since she was six. So much that she became pregnant with twins. She had an therapeutic abortion as a result. The bishop excommunicated her mother (but not Step-Daddy Dearest Rapist) for going through with the abortion, but was overturned, now 'his holiness' is arguing the reversal, condemning the mom for going through with the abortion.

http://www.progressivepuppy.com/the_progressive_puppy/2009/07/pope-benedict-child-rape-is-better-than-therapeutic-abortion.html

So in esscense, the Pope supports the rapist instead of the little girl that suffered. Bravo, Benedict, Bravo. Holy Shit in the finest, folks.

That is quite a twist to what is really happening.

I am far FAR from being a Papist. Even by the use of that term, you can see my derision for the hierarchy and the history of the Catholic church (please, no offense meant to those who are catholic here, I am referring to the 400 + year history). However, be honest with what is going on.

The Pope is not supporting the rapist as opposed to the little girl. Rather, the pope is looking at the actions and is surmising that

1. While rape is a horrible thing, it ultimately, according to catholic teaching, is a moral failure.

2. Abortion is the ending of a human life and as such, is equitable to murder.

3. Murder is worse than rape.

Personally, I believe that the father should have been removed as well. Furthermore, the church should have stepped in and offered to support the child, the mother, and either help her raise, or find an appropriate home for the children. Because I too, do not believe there is any reason to demand an innocent life be killed. Yes, that little girl was also innocent and her life is destroyed, but why triple the destruction with abortion?

I have a bigger question however, why didn't the mother do something about it before? Statistics will tell us that she knew, and turned a blind eye.

IMO, the father should get the chair for what he did. The mother however, is probably quite guilty as well, statistically. That poor girl is going to need a lot of help.

SteelersinCA
07-28-2009, 05:42 PM
Ditto, Preach.

steelreserve
07-28-2009, 06:11 PM
2. Abortion is the ending of a human life and as such, is equitable to murder.

3. Murder is worse than rape.

That's what I would've guessed his reasoning is. But I don't think looking at every case as THAT black-and-white is smart at all. The church should've just stayed out of this one if you ask me; they're just making a bad situation even worse.

As a side note, I did find this incredible story (http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/medina.asp) as a result. I had no idea that was even possible.

Preacher
07-28-2009, 06:32 PM
That's what I would've guessed his reasoning is. But I don't think looking at every case as THAT black-and-white is smart at all. The church should've just stayed out of this one if you ask me; they're just making a bad situation even worse.

As a side note, I did find this incredible story (http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/medina.asp) as a result. I had no idea that was even possible.

:jawdrop:

As far as the rest of the statement... I think the church has to be involved, as it is part of the life of the people. However, what needs to happen is the church has to find out a much better way of EXPRESSING itself.

A lot of hatred towards Christianity is brought on because Christians do not stop and think before they express themselves. As a result, we end up saying really stupid stuff, and then when challenged, try to run to God or scripture to back it up, instead fo saying, "oops, I probably should have said that a lot better."

CantStop85
07-28-2009, 08:36 PM
The most outrageous thing is the fact that people actually care about what the Pope says. Hello, Dark Ages...glad to see you again.

SteelCurtain
07-29-2009, 06:31 AM
That is quite a twist to what is really happening.

I am far FAR from being a Papist. Even by the use of that term, you can see my derision for the hierarchy and the history of the Catholic church (please, no offense meant to those who are catholic here, I am referring to the 400 + year history). However, be honest with what is going on.

The Pope is not supporting the rapist as opposed to the little girl. Rather, the pope is looking at the actions and is surmising that

1. While rape is a horrible thing, it ultimately, according to catholic teaching, is a moral failure.

2. Abortion is the ending of a human life and as such, is equitable to murder.

3. Murder is worse than rape.

Personally, I believe that the father should have been removed as well. Furthermore, the church should have stepped in and offered to support the child, the mother, and either help her raise, or find an appropriate home for the children. Because I too, do not believe there is any reason to demand an innocent life be killed. Yes, that little girl was also innocent and her life is destroyed, but why triple the destruction with abortion?



We are talking about a F'ing 9 year old girl having twins! How could you possibly believe that an abortion wasn't necessary? When things are screwed up in a pregnancy nature has its way of taking care of it, by a miscarriage. When things are screwed up in a pregnancy that nature can't take care of, man has a way of taking care of it, by an abortion. I believe there are definitely instances when abortions are needed. If your 9 year old daughter got pregnant by her teacher at school and was pregnant with twins then I believe you would be singing a different tune.

stlrtruck
07-29-2009, 08:32 AM
The most outrageous thing is the fact that people actually care about what the Pope says. Hello, Dark Ages...glad to see you again.

I didn't think a bungals fan could make me laugh outside of their football rhetoric!

KUDOS :applaudit: to you for that one.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-29-2009, 11:26 AM
We are talking about a F'ing 9 year old girl having twins! How could you possibly believe that an abortion wasn't necessary? When things are screwed up in a pregnancy nature has its way of taking care of it, by a miscarriage. When things are screwed up in a pregnancy that nature can't take care of, man has a way of taking care of it, by an abortion. I believe there are definitely instances when abortions are needed. If your 9 year old daughter got pregnant by her teacher at school and was pregnant with twins then I believe you would be singing a different tune.

What you are talking about is situational ethics...which is a WHOLE different thread.

revefsreleets
07-29-2009, 11:29 AM
Just another reason I get up in the morning and can happily say to myself : "Thank GOD I'm not Catholic!" (Although I am technically because they forced me to convert to get married)...

steelreserve
07-29-2009, 11:39 AM
As far as the rest of the statement... I think the church has to be involved, as it is part of the life of the people. However, what needs to happen is the church has to find out a much better way of EXPRESSING itself.

A lot of hatred towards Christianity is brought on because Christians do not stop and think before they express themselves. As a result, we end up saying really stupid stuff, and then when challenged, try to run to God or scripture to back it up, instead fo saying, "oops, I probably should have said that a lot better."

Well, OK, I understand if the church wants to say something and have an opinion about it, but excommunicating someone is a little more than that. Personally, I just think this particular case is so screwed up that taking any position other than "first and foremost, we need to help the poor girl" will make you come off looking like a complete tool. Instead, they went completely off on a tangent and concentrated on some theoretical bullshit that you could not possibly expect anyone in her situation to pay attention to. And in the process, they demonstrated a complete lack of empathy or practicality. This is why more and more people these days think the church has a disconnect with reality, and therefore ignore what it has to say. When it comes to official church policy, it's pretty universal that 80% of modern citizens are going to be consistently disappointed, time after time.

Hammer Of The GODS
07-29-2009, 01:05 PM
3. Murder is worse than rape.



And God lets BOTH happen to children ALL the time!


Sorry, but I can't subscribe to religion in ANY form because I refuse to worship an allmighty God that would allow such horrible things to occur!


I have shaken off the burden of faith in a deity and allowed myself to come to terms with the fact that humanity in all its glory has a dark and disturbed side that has made a mockery of religion and it's attemps to govern it!


Crimes against children should be dealt with by us lowly MORTALS! Waiting for "Gods" justice is just assinine!


.

stlrtruck
07-29-2009, 01:34 PM
We are talking about a F'ing 9 year old girl having twins! How could you possibly believe that an abortion wasn't necessary? When things are screwed up in a pregnancy nature has its way of taking care of it, by a miscarriage. When things are screwed up in a pregnancy that nature can't take care of, man has a way of taking care of it, by an abortion. I believe there are definitely instances when abortions are needed. If your 9 year old daughter got pregnant by her teacher at school and was pregnant with twins then I believe you would be singing a different tune.

If my daughter were to get pregnatn by her teacher or whom ever, it's not the abortion we'd have to worry about but most likely the gene pool being eliminated by one more person courtesy of a pissed of father!

MasterOfPuppets
07-29-2009, 01:35 PM
And God lets BOTH happen to children ALL the time!


Sorry, but I can't subscribe to religion in ANY form because I refuse to worship an allmighty God that would allow such horrible things to occur!




.
it happens right there in churches by the men in cloth !!! not only does the catholic church harbor pedophiles, it protects them !!! i guess since "thou shall not diddle children ", isn't in the top 10 , then its a very forgivable offence to the catholic church.

Even as he told reporters on his flight to America that he was "deeply ashamed" over the church sex abuse scandal, Pope Benedict was accused by victims of protecting some 19 bishops accused of sexually abusing children.

"As a Catholic, I have to sadly conclude that he is not serious about ridding the church of corrupt bishops," said Anne Doyle, co-director of BishopAccountability.org, a group tracking public records involving the bishops.

According to the group, of the 19 bishops "credibly accused of abusing children," none has lost his title, been publicly censured by the Vatican or referred for criminal prosecutions.

"The sexual corruption in the Catholic church starts at the very top," said Doyle.

Pope Benedict told reporters on his flight this morning from Rome to Washington, D.C., he would do everything possible to avoid a repeat of the scandal. "We will absolutely exclude pedophiles from the sacred ministry," he said, according to Reuters.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4656143&page=1

beSteelmyheart
07-29-2009, 03:32 PM
it happens right there in churches by the men in cloth !!! not only does the catholic church harbor pedophiles, it protects them !!! i guess since "thou shall not diddle children ", isn't in the top 10 , then its a very forgivable offence to the catholic church.


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4656143&page=1
I totally agree! You beat me to it!
It sounds to me like the Pope is being a total hypocrite, but it doesn't surprise me.

Dino 6 Rings
07-29-2009, 03:49 PM
Well, considering this is the Catholic Church we are talking about, the Mother of the Little girl just needs to Ask Forgiveness for her "Sin" as seen in the eyes of the Catholic Church. They can excommunicate her, but according to their own rules and standards, they do "forgive" sinners.

She would first have to admit she sinned, which by their standards, she did, then ask forgiveness for it, and repent, and she'd be forgiven. At least that's how its supposed to work.

Most Catholics are Anti-Death Penalty and I know Christians forgive murderers on Death Row that ask for forgiveness at the end of their days.

Anyway, who's right, who's wrong? Its Abortion we are talking about, so its the most debatable topic in the world. Move on from the situation in the past, and move forward. Mom needs to admit her "sin" as it is in the eyes of the Catholic Church, and ask forgiveness.

There you go.

Hammer Of The GODS
07-29-2009, 07:33 PM
Well, considering this is the Catholic Church we are talking about, the Mother of the Little girl just needs to Ask Forgiveness for her "Sin" as seen in the eyes of the Catholic Church. They can excommunicate her, but according to their own rules and standards, they do "forgive" sinners.

She would first have to admit she sinned, which by their standards, she did, then ask forgiveness for it, and repent, and she'd be forgiven. At least that's how its supposed to work.

Most Catholics are Anti-Death Penalty and I know Christians forgive murderers on Death Row that ask for forgiveness at the end of their days.

Anyway, who's right, who's wrong? Its Abortion we are talking about, so its the most debatable topic in the world. Move on from the situation in the past, and move forward. Mom needs to admit her "sin" as it is in the eyes of the Catholic Church, and ask forgiveness.

There you go.



How can you forgive the rapeing of a little girl OR the person who knowingly let it happen?

THIS is where religion gets in the way! It is BULLSHIT that crimes against children do not come with an AUTOMATIC death penalty and religion is the reason why.

If we "adults" can't protect our children then who will? God? If so he's doing a real good job!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sarcasm to the nth degree)

beSteelmyheart
07-29-2009, 07:50 PM
How can you forgive the rapeing of a little girl OR the person who knowingly let it happen?

THIS is where religion gets in the way! It is BULLSHIT that crimes against children do not come with an AUTOMATIC death penalty and religion is the reason why.

If we "adults" can't protect our children then who will? God? If so he's doing a real good job!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sarcasm to the nth degree)
I guess because it's all about the forgiveness & not the sin, which means a priest can keep on touching little boys, ask for forgiveness, do it again, get more forgiveness & so on. Then the Church just forgives him, (pays the family a little bit of forgiveness money) & moves him somewhere else where the cycle can continue without truly addressing the sin itself, as if forgiveness will wash away a sickness that is proven to be incurable & that sickness is pedophilia!!!!
I totally agree with you , there must be stiffer penalties, something must be done!

Preacher
07-29-2009, 08:03 PM
We are talking about a F'ing 9 year old girl having twins! How could you possibly believe that an abortion wasn't necessary? When things are screwed up in a pregnancy nature has its way of taking care of it, by a miscarriage. When things are screwed up in a pregnancy that nature can't take care of, man has a way of taking care of it, by an abortion. I believe there are definitely instances when abortions are needed. If your 9 year old daughter got pregnant by her teacher at school and was pregnant with twins then I believe you would be singing a different tune.

No, I would not. Here is a non-faith based article, which is neither prolife nor pro choice. I can find more info on the actual studies if you are interested.
Psychological Effects of Teen Rape and Abortion (http://www.troubledteensinfo.com/Teenage_Sexuality/Teen_Pregnancy/Psychological_Effects_of_Teen_Rape_and_Abortion/)
Psychological effects of rape

Both rape and abortion are serious issues that can affect a teen in a number of ways. Not only are the physical effects of these issues of dire concern but so are their psychological effects as well.
Rape


Both rape and abortion are serious issues that can affect a teen in a number of ways. Not only are the physical effects of these issues of dire concern but so are their psychological effects as well.
A psychological effect associated with rape is the development of a form of post-traumatic stress disorder also known as Rape trauma syndrome. It is a psychosomatic response to rape which engages feelings of shame and shock. Because of the difficulty involved in recovering from the emotional impact brought upon the victim by the act of rape, many women are prone to this type of anxiety disorder. Rape trauma syndrome can be distinguished by a number of characteristics. The victim may experience recurring nightmares in the form of flashbacks of the rape, depression, nervousness, social withdrawal, and emotional numbness. Like other forms of post-traumatic stress disorder, it may be treated with antidepressants and psychotherapy.


Abortion


Teenagers who turn to abortion as the answer to any pregnancy stemming from rape have not just physical effects to deal with but mental effects as well.

Abortion on the other hand has its own share of mental health risks. Studies have shown that post-abortion patients have been afflicted with sleep disturbances, recurring feelings of regret, anxiety disorders, and in turn have been prescribed psychotropic medicine. At a high risk for psychiatric treatment are those women who have had abortions. This rate may increase with age (teenagers being more prone), status (separated or divorced), and other conditions. Many post-aborted patients resort to repression as a mechanism for coping with the ordeal.

Similarly, major studies conducted randomly have also connected post-abortion patients with post-traumatic stress disorder. And about half of the patients exhibited almost all of the symptoms of the disorder. Heightened levels of stress and particular avoidance behavior were related to the experience of abortion. Akin to rape victims, the post-traumatic stress disorder in cases of post-abortion patients stems from a traumatic experience which overpowers one’s defense mechanisms and leads to intense fears, loss of control, etc. The trauma of the experience is actually aggravated when threats of sexual violation and physical injury are present. A disconnection of mental functions may result in the onset of post-traumatic stress disorder in which victims may experience varying degrees of intense emotions and memories of the experience. Wherein the stressor causing the post-trauma stress disorder is abortion, it is diagnosed as Post-Abortion Syndrome.
The link of rape and abortion

The perception of the terminated pregnancy as the killing of one’s own child in the patient’s mind may still exist despite convincing reasons for the abortion. Feelings of guilt, fear, anxiety, and pain linked to the course of action, further heighten the negative perception. Patients have likened abortion with rape. Some have described the pain as an invasion of the self which may be compared to rape. In cases of women with a history of sexual assault, researchers have found that greater distress may be experienced throughout and following an abortion precisely due to associations between both experiences.
In cases of rape, the rate of pregnancy is actually very rare. This is due to several factors which may affect conception. The victim is in immense emotional shock and her body in turn is affected. Statistics show that the rate of miscarriage is higher in these circumstances. A major factor contributing to the rare occurrence of conception in cases of rape is psychological trauma. Stress has been known to alter bodily functions, the menstrual cycle included. And in order for a woman to conceive a complex blend of hormones must be formed. The production of these certain hormones is easily affected by emotions, in which of course the rape itself factors in greatly. Hence, the chances of actual conception—ovulation, fertilization, implantation—for the rape victim are considerably lowered.

In addition, it is important to consider that pregnancy may be avoided in cases of rape if the victim seeks medical assistance and has the semen taken from the uterus. It has been argued that types of “treatment” for rape are abortive, but in actuality, when a woman is raped and in some cases immediately treated with female hormone medication, even if the assailant’s sperm were still alive in her body, the medication given may prevent her ovulation (if it has not yet occurred) and she would not get pregnant. This would be an action of temporary sterilization and would be considered contraceptive, not abortive.

One can note how abortion itself may be physiologically avoided. But in circumstances where pregnancy stemming from rape is a given and abortion is sought out as the answer, the development of Post-Abortion Syndrome atop the Rape trauma Syndrome the victim may already be experiencing has been clearly observed. A factor in the development of Post-Abortion Syndrome may be the biological fact that her own unborn child is killed with her decision to abort. This biological reality stands even through the circumstances of rape which passed. And the victim’s maternal instincts may in turn leave her increasingly aware of this reality.




http://www.troubledteensinfo.com/Teenage_Sexuality/Teen_Pregnancy/Psychological_Effects_of_Teen_Rape_and_Abortion/

Preacher
07-29-2009, 08:11 PM
How can you forgive the rapeing of a little girl OR the person who knowingly let it happen?

THIS is where religion gets in the way! It is BULLSHIT that crimes against children do not come with an AUTOMATIC death penalty and religion is the reason why.

If we "adults" can't protect our children then who will? God? If so he's doing a real good job!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sarcasm to the nth degree)

Sorry, that is not just a stereotype, but a completely wrong assumption of the christian faith.

Personal forgiveness and prosecution in a court of law are two very different things. Furthermore, it is generally not the "christians" but those who reject Christianity for traditional "rationalism" and the belief that humanity is generally good that are against the death penalty. Most true Christians understand that the violation of the Amago Dei sometimes demands the violator to give up his or her own life, though it is executed through the state.

No, it was the relinquisment of religion in America which brought about the end of the death penalty in the 70's, because they all beleived that they could "educate" the offender, instead of understanding the christian doctrine of the natural sinfulness of man, and that you can't education that out of someone.

You are looking for the boogie man in religion here, but you will only find him in the secular left.

Preacher
07-29-2009, 08:15 PM
I guess because it's all about the forgiveness & not the sin, which means a priest can keep on touching little boys, ask for forgiveness, do it again, get more forgiveness & so on. Then the Church just forgives him, (pays the family a little bit of forgiveness money) & moves him somewhere else where the cycle can continue without truly addressing the sin itself, as if forgiveness will wash away a sickness that is proven to be incurable & that sickness is pedophilia!!!!
I totally agree with you , there must be stiffer penalties, something must be done!

The catholic church (wrongly) saw it as ONLY a moral failing. They refused to see the deeper psychological implications of the actions.

What they did was completely wrong. Those priests should have been defrocked immediately.

In our church, we have had people cheat on thier wives. While there is immediate forgiveness, and I counsel wives to forgive thier husbands (and vice-versa), that doesn't mean that you go about it as if it never happened. We have removed people from positions etc., as a result. No, there is a BIG difference between forgiveness and ignorance.

Godfather
07-29-2009, 08:41 PM
Personal forgiveness and prosecution in a court of law are two very different things.


Exactly. There is both a temporal (earthly) and an eternal debt for our sins. Religion is about forgiving the eternal debt. It does not exempt us from earthly laws.

Preacher
07-29-2009, 08:47 PM
Exactly. There is both a temporal (earthly) and an eternal debt for our sins. Religion is about forgiving the eternal debt. It does not exempt us from earthly laws.

Bingo.

Back when I was young and stupid (as opposed to old and stupid now), I would do something and then pray, Oh Lord forgive me PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE.

Then wonder why I was dealing with the consequences.

Finally I came to understand. Forgiveness doesn't remove the consequences. If you drop a hammer, the owner of the hammer will probably forgive you even before it hits your toe. But you will STILL have a broken toe... Right Hartwig? :chuckle: (wasn't a can in his case?)

MasterOfPuppets
07-29-2009, 08:56 PM
we're not talking about a teenager here, we're talking about a 9 YEAR OLD ... what are the chances of a 9 YEAR OLD being able to carry TWINS to a point where they would survive ? and i'd think there might just be some severe health risk to the 9 YEAR OLD even trying ...:doh:

A girl can become pregnant even before she begins menstruation. For most girls, a regular menstrual cycle will begin between the ages of 11 and 16. During these formative years, bones are not mature, and over all growth is not yet finished. Becoming pregnant as during the teen years pose some serious health risks, not only to themselves, but to the unborn child.

The risks for the teen mom are great as well. Pregnancy and birth can put a tremendous strain on a teenager's body. If bone structure is not fully developed, she takes the risk of injuring her spine and pelvic bones, altering her life forever

this is teenagers they're talking about... so i'd think a PREteen might just be at a little more risk... but hey i'm sure god will take care of it... after all its part of the divine plan.. why needlessly piss off the church, after all its only your daughters life at stake here ...:coffee:

JackHammer
07-29-2009, 09:41 PM
we're not talking about a teenager here, we're talking about a 9 YEAR OLD ... what are the chances of a 9 YEAR OLD being able to carry TWINS to a point where they would survive ? and i'd think there might just be some severe health risk to the 9 YEAR OLD even trying ...:doh:





this is teenagers they're talking about... so i'd think a PREteen might just be at a little more risk... but hey i'm sure god will take care of it... after all its part of the divine plan.. why needlessly piss off the church, after all its only your daughters life at stake here ...:coffee:

Yeah really. Especially considering a pregnancy can kill a fully developed woman if certain complications arise. You would think with a 9 year old that complications are sure to arise. If it were my daughter there wouldn't be any question about getting the abortion. I'm not risking her LIFE to appease the church.

**Edited for anger management**

Hammer Of The GODS
07-29-2009, 10:16 PM
Sorry, that is not just a stereotype, but a completely wrong assumption of the christian faith.

Personal forgiveness and prosecution in a court of law are two very different things. Furthermore, it is generally not the "christians" but those who reject Christianity for traditional "rationalism" and the belief that humanity is generally good that are against the death penalty. Most true Christians understand that the violation of the Amago Dei sometimes demands the violator to give up his or her own life, though it is executed through the state.

No, it was the relinquisment of religion in America which brought about the end of the death penalty in the 70's, because they all beleived that they could "educate" the offender, instead of understanding the christian doctrine of the natural sinfulness of man, and that you can't education that out of someone.

You are looking for the boogie man in religion here, but you will only find him in the secular left.


First of all I did not single out christianity. Religion as a whole, all of them.

The following is a qoute from this website....... http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/part-ii-history-death-penalty

In the 1970s, the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), representing more then 10 million conservative Christians and 47 denominations, and the Moral Majority, were among the Christian groups supporting the death penalty. NAE's successor, the Christian Coalition, also supports the death penalty. Today, Fundamentalist and Pentecostal churches support the death penalty, typically on biblical grounds, specifically citing the Old Testament. (Bedau, 1997). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regards the question as a matter to be decided solely by the process of civil law, and thus neither promotes nor opposes capital punishment.


Although traditionally also a supporter of capital punishment, the Roman Catholic Church now oppose the death penalty. In addition, most Protestant denominations, including Baptists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and the United Church of Christ, oppose the death penalty. During the 1960s, religious activists worked to abolish the death penalty, and continue to do so today.

In recent years, and in the wake of a recent appeal by Pope John Paul II to end the death penalty, religious organizations around the nation have issued statements opposing the death penalty. Complete texts of many of these statements can be found at http://www.deathpenaltyreligious.org/ .

Looks to me like religion (all of them) are trying to get rid of the death penalty. :coffee:

Go on and point your finger at the catholics because they deserve ridicule, but the history of christianity is filled with atrocities as well. :coffee:


Religion (all of them) has been a crutch for humanity for centuries because humans can't handle the idea that this existance might be it. That we all just blip into nothingness and there is no afterlife is too much for most people to except.

And oh yea, I don't need to look to religion for a boogey man. YOUR god put them all around us and gives them carte blanche to commit thier vile and reprehensible acts! And if they are caught by us mere mortals we clothe them and feed them and let them educate themselves whilst they lift weights and become stronger faster and smarter criminals!

As I said before, BOTH of these pieces of shyte deserve the death penalty for what he did and what she let him do to that little girl!

SteelCityMan786
07-29-2009, 10:43 PM
The Pope suffers something called Foot in Mouth.

He's been suffering from that since he was elected.

Preacher
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
First of all I did not single out christianity. Religion as a whole, all of them.

The following is a qoute from this website....... http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/part-ii-history-death-penalty



Looks to me like religion (all of them) are trying to get rid of the death penalty. :coffee: Actually, what you see there is a division within. Those who consider themselves Christians because of their belief that the bible is the absolute Word of God and Christ is the absolute and only savior do not consider "cultural christianity" true christianity. As such, cultural and liberal christianity (two distinct but sometimes interwined things) are not referenced by me when I speak of Christians. I speak of the "confessing church" Now, there ARE a number within the confessing church that are also against it. But the fact of the matter is, most who oppose the death penality are those who have either 1. moved away from the metanarrative held by the confessing church, or 2., Outright rejected it.

Thus, you cannot not say "all of them" are trying to get rid of the death penalty, because the fact is, the largest single proponent of the death penalty in the US is the Conservative Evangelical movement.

Go on and point your finger at the catholics because they deserve ridicule, but the history of christianity is filled with atrocities as well. :coffee:

No. Christianity is not. Christendom is. Christendom is the bastardization of Christianity into a state religion. Something it was never intended to be and something which it cannot be. It is for those very reasons that a couple of Baptist leaders wrote a letter to Jeffereson encouraging him in the hope of creating a seperation of church and state, something that is a cornerstone of Baptist distinctives. Wether it is the Catholics, the Prebysterians in Scotland, the lutherans in Germany, the Anglican church in England, or the early Presbyterian church in America (which persecuted the Baptists and help cause the plea to Jefferson, not to mention the declarations of Pennyslvania as a state which accepted religious freedom), they all slipped into Christendom, which is the confusion of faith and politics. Something I personally abhore.


Religion (all of them) has been a crutch for humanity for centuries because humans can't handle the idea that this existance might be it. That we all just blip into nothingness and there is no afterlife is too much for most people to except.

That is your belief. Fine, I happen to believe that secular humanism and atheism is an excuse for people who do not want to face up to the fact that their actions may someday actually be judged.

And oh yea, I don't need to look to religion for a boogey man. YOUR god put them all around us and gives them carte blanche to commit thier vile and reprehensible acts! And if they are caught by us mere mortals we clothe them and feed them and let them educate themselves whilst they lift weights and become stronger faster and smarter criminals!

Two issues here. 1. My God did no such thing. The scripture teaches that man chose to disobey God and chose to engage in Evil.

2. Us mortals are stupid, and our correctional facilities are ran on the very liberal philosphies I spoke of before... that instead of humans CHOOSING to do evil, they think that it they can just be educated out of it. Fact is, they oughta take a hint from that sherrif in Arizona (I think that is where he is). Make em all sleep in tense, dress in pink underwear, and work on chaingangs all day.

As I said before, BOTH of these pieces of shyte deserve the death penalty for what he did and what she let him do to that little girl!

Personally, I believe anything the Amago Dei is violated or destroyed, that human has the given up the right of life. Thus, rape and murder should both be punished by the death penalty. Not out of retribution or vengence, but because that person has shown that he no longer values life and thus has given up his own life.

Preacher
07-29-2009, 10:57 PM
we're not talking about a teenager here, we're talking about a 9 YEAR OLD ... what are the chances of a 9 YEAR OLD being able to carry TWINS to a point where they would survive ? and i'd think there might just be some severe health risk to the 9 YEAR OLD even trying ...:doh:





this is teenagers they're talking about... so i'd think a PREteen might just be at a little more risk... but hey i'm sure god will take care of it... after all its part of the divine plan.. why needlessly piss off the church, after all its only your daughters life at stake here ...:coffee:

Seems I didn't put the disclaimer in the post that I meant to.

I know this is about teenagers. However, the facts are the same, that abortion is not always the clear cut best solution. Many times, it will do much more damage, even to and especially to a rape victim.


Oh... I forgot the :coffee: It seems to be in vogue now a days.

SteelersinCA
07-30-2009, 12:39 AM
[SIZE="2"]First of all I did not single out christianity. Religion as a whole, all of them.



You are neglecting one of the foundational tenets of most religion and that is free will. God does not control every single person, each person is free to choose which decisions they make. While religion may believe God is omnipotent, that doesn't translate into a puppet master.

I'm not trying to criticize your beliefs, don't get me wrong, but saying God somehow "lets" this happen, is sort of misplaced in the context of religion.

CantStop85
07-30-2009, 01:04 AM
You are neglecting one of the foundational tenets of most religion and that is free will. God does not control every single person, each person is free to choose which decisions they make. While religion may believe God is omnipotent, that doesn't translate into a puppet master.

I'm not trying to criticize your beliefs, don't get me wrong, but saying God somehow "lets" this happen, is sort of misplaced in the context of religion.

Just as he gives free will to hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, earth quakes, and other natural disasters. :chuckle:

Anyway, if God "gives" free will to humans and he is also omniscient/omnipotent, he already knows what these humans will ultimately do. So what exactly is the point of free will in this case?

Doesn't make much sense, does it? Then again, neither does Santa Claus delivering all of those toys all across the world in one night...but we are all fooled into believing that one when we're young as well. It's amazing the lengths humans will go to deny their own mortality.

Preacher
07-30-2009, 05:03 AM
Just as he gives free will to hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, earth quakes, and other natural disasters. :chuckle:

Anyway, if God "gives" free will to humans and he is also omniscient/omnipotent, he already knows what these humans will ultimately do. So what exactly is the point of free will in this case?

Doesn't make much sense, does it? Then again, neither does Santa Claus delivering all of those toys all across the world in one night...but we are all fooled into believing that one when we're young as well. It's amazing the lengths humans will go to deny their own mortality.

Do you have a son or daughter? Do you always go pick them up to give them a hug? Or do you ever say their name, and let them make the choice to show their love for you by coming and giving you a hug?

That is the point of free will. It is a choice to love God or not.

(though many actually Don't believe in free will when it comes to turning to God or not... but I am not one of those.)

vasteeler
07-30-2009, 10:42 AM
another reason i am not religious

SteelersinCA
07-30-2009, 10:49 AM
Just as he gives free will to hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, earth quakes, and other natural disasters. :chuckle:

Anyway, if God "gives" free will to humans and he is also omniscient/omnipotent, he already knows what these humans will ultimately do. So what exactly is the point of free will in this case?

Doesn't make much sense, does it? Then again, neither does Santa Claus delivering all of those toys all across the world in one night...but we are all fooled into believing that one when we're young as well. It's amazing the lengths humans will go to deny their own mortality.

So using your logic, in order for a "God" to exist everything has to be peachy keen all the time? I'm not trying to get into a God exists vs doesn't exist debate I'm not hugely religious but I do believe in God. Further, I think if you compare the way a good person leads their life to the way a god-believing person ideally leads their life there isn't much difference. Then the question becomes just out of sheer cover your ass, why not believe in God? If he exists, you win, if not, what have you lost?

Dino 6 Rings
07-30-2009, 11:12 AM
I guess believing in God or A God, takes just as much faith as believing that there was nothing, then one day, Magically, there was a Big Bang that created anything.

Anyway, Forgive the Sinner, not the Sin. Right, isn't that the saying. If a person is truly repentant, and seeks forgiveness, and is forgiven, then does the same act again, that's on their eternal soul to deal with. If they believe in God, they are in trouble, if they believe in nothing or in science, they fck it, why care about what you do anyway really? I mean sure, you could believe in Goodness I guess, or believe in Humanity, but I find Humanity pretty disgusting actually. Collectively Humans are pretty bad, individually, Humans are pretty good.

SteelCityMom
07-30-2009, 11:28 AM
I guess believing in God or A God, takes just as much faith as believing that there was nothing, then one day, Magically, there was a Big Bang that created anything.

The only difference here is, the Big Bang theory is up for questioning and debate. People are always expanding on the idea of it and wondering why, how, when and even if it ever happened. With organized religion there is no room for debate or questioning. You either believe in the bible or what the church tells you, or you don't. I know there are individuals who believe in God or a God that allow themselves to question the idea of him/her/it, but organized religion does not.

MasterOfPuppets
07-30-2009, 11:33 AM
Seems I didn't put the disclaimer in the post that I meant to.

I know this is about teenagers. However, the facts are the same, that abortion is not always the clear cut best solution. Many times, it will do much more damage, even to and especially to a rape victim.


Oh... I forgot the :coffee: It seems to be in vogue now a days.

we're not talking about a teenager here, we're talking about a 9 YEAR OLD i'm not going to try to dispute the psychological repercussions of an abortion, but i'd say being the victim of incestious rape for years might already be enough to cause a few mental disorders. myself personally, i'd rather not have the by product of that rape around to remind me of it everyday.

CantStop85
07-30-2009, 12:43 PM
So using your logic, in order for a "God" to exist everything has to be peachy keen all the time?
No, not for "a God" to exist...but if we're talking about the Abrahamic God who is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent...then the issue of evil will always present some sort of dilemma or contradiction. If a religion were willing to just say, hey God can't do everything or he isn't completely "good," then it would be a non-issue.

I think if you compare the way a good person leads their life to the way a god-believing person ideally leads their life there isn't much difference.
This may very well be so. However, I personally believe it is more noble to do good deeds and live a good life simply because you want to rather than in fear of punishment from some all-powerful being. If indeed a God does exist and I'm sent to Hell simply because I didn't blindly believe in an invisible man, despite the fact that I lived an otherwise good and modest life, well I don't think I would want to spend eternity with such a deity anyway.

Then the question becomes just out of sheer cover your ass, why not believe in God? If he exists, you win, if not, what have you lost?
Ah, a great french philosopher named Blaise Pascal once posed this question. He reasoned that it is better to believe in God than to not, because if you believe in him and he doesn't exist, nothing happens. However, if you don't believe in him and he does exist, you're going to Hell. This wager is now known as Pascal's wager.

The obvious flaw with this is that Christianity (in most cases) contends that we must have a genuine belief in God (or Jesus as savior) in order to get into heaven. Odds are, the creator of the universe is going to be able to tell whether you genuinely believe in him or you're just doing it to "cover your ass." In which case, I believe it's better to just stick with what you truly believe in rather than live a lie.

Anyway, I'll be looking forward to Hell just in case...I hear that's where all of the contraband beer and porn goes. :chuckle:

revefsreleets
07-30-2009, 12:58 PM
I think I subscribe to Hannibal Lector's philosophy on God: He's mostly bored but enjoys watching us scramble around and try to figure him out...there is also a certain irony when roofs drop on churches filled with old ladies praying...only a God with a very dark sense of humor would go in for that kind of thing...

Just to toss a little MORE controversy in, how about Freakonomics assertion that abortion helped curb violent crime? There have since been some studies contradicting their findings (but how could there not be with so many religious people WANTING to find data disputing that finding?), but I still tend to think it's probably true.

stlrtruck
07-30-2009, 01:18 PM
Wow this turned in to one heck of a debate.

In my opinion, it takes just as much faith to believe in God or a god as it does to believe that He or one doesn't exist.

One thing about God is that He does allow free will choices in our life. We also have to deal with the consequences of those choices. So why do bad things happen to good people? Part of it, I believe, is the trials and tribulations of life itself. It also has to do with the testing of our faith to bring us to a deeper relationship with Christ. The book of Job is an example that comes to mind. Job was a rich man for his time. He had it all. A large family, plenty of animals, etc. Then in a discussion between God and satan, satan is allowed to take these things away. satan escalates his attacks on Job, taking away his livelihood, his family, etc. And all the while Job had not one choice in the matter EXCEPT how he handled the situation.

Side note: In my reading of Job, I find it funny that many say you should have the patience of Job. But really Job wasn't a patient man, he was a complainer.

Back on track: Job took God to task, in literally terms taking God to court. In the end God really let Job know that He was in control. Job at times questions himself and the low points of his life, but he constantly returns to his faith. In the end Job is blessed for his faithfulness and he is blessed with a life greater than the one he had before.

To discuss other points. Man is inherently sinful to begin life. It is through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross that we are redeemed from the sinner's life and while that should not and does not excuse continuous sinful behavior, it is in our relationship with Christ that we are forgiven and through God's GRACE and MERCY that we are heirs to the kingdom of heaven. However, even with the forgiveness of sins from God, it does not erase the consequences here on earth.

I don't know much about the catholic policies, but this man needs to be dealt with and the church was wrong, imho, because they were morried about their precious rules than they were the needs of the child.

Preacher
07-30-2009, 07:49 PM
i'm not going to try to dispute the psychological repercussions of an abortion, but i'd say being the victim of incestious rape for years might already be enough to cause a few mental disorders. myself personally, i'd rather not have the by product of that rape around to remind me of it everyday.

That is also understandable... though for me, adoption is the answer there.

Beyond everything else . . . it is a shame that this discussion actually even reflects a reality that exists.

Preacher
07-30-2009, 07:51 PM
another reason i am not religious


Funny thing. Neither am I.

Fordy
07-30-2009, 08:54 PM
That is also understandable... though for me, adoption is the answer there.

Beyond everything else . . . it is a shame that this discussion actually even reflects a reality that exists.

Adoption is NOT the answer there. If you were a female that was incestually raped YOU would not want to carry and raise the child.
YOU also would not want to be a child that was born by incestual rape. Could YOU be happy if thats how you entered the world???
Put yourself in someone elses shoes and stop making judgements on what people should and shouldnt do out of the comfort of your perfect and harmonious life. Whats your biggest problem? cutting down on cholesterol? Let the 9 year old rape victim have an abortion and move on and be glad YOU dont have ANY problems anywhere near as big as her's and keep living your perfect life. :banging:

Preacher
07-30-2009, 09:02 PM
Adoption is NOT the answer there. If you were a female that was incestually raped YOU would not want to carry and raise the child.
YOU also would not want to be a child that was born by incestual rape. Could YOU be happy if thats how you entered the world???
Put yourself in someone elses shoes and stop making judgements on what people should and shouldnt do out of the comfort of your perfect and harmonious life. Whats your biggest problem? cutting down on cholesterol? Let the 9 year old rape victim have an abortion and move on and be glad YOU dont have ANY problems anywhere near as big as her's and keep living your perfect life. :banging:

Excuse me, but have YOU every actually SPOKEN to those who were BORN from a rape? They are THANKFUL that their mother loved them enough not to abort them. Maybe YOU should put YOURSELF in the shoes of the CHILD that is being killed. I am glad YOU have never had to worry about someone killing YOU.

Have YOU ever spoken to women who were devastated by abortion? I am constantly amazed how people think it is the panacea of peace when the facts are far from it.

Read the article posted in a previous post. Yes, it is about teens, but the facts remain. Abortions oftentimes feel like ANOTHER RAPE. :banging:

(I guess :banging: is now the in vogue smiley.)

____________________________________

Now, if you want, we can continue this converstation in a more civilized manner... or just spew rhetoric.

SteelCityMom
07-30-2009, 11:59 PM
All religion aside, I doubt it's ever very safe for a 9 year old to carry one child, let alone twins. I'm not a doctor, but maybe her OBGYN recommended it for fear that the 9 year old would not survive giving birth to two babies or having a C-section. Both can be risky procedures for mature women.

I have a 7 year old girl, and I could never in my life imagine her being pregnant in 2 years. If somehow she did become pregnant, I don't think I would ever be able to risk her life because of rape.

I understand being opposed to abortion, but this is clearly not a normal case and religion and pro-life shouldn't be the first things that pop into your mind when you hear something like this.

Preacher
07-31-2009, 01:13 AM
All religion aside, I doubt it's ever very safe for a 9 year old to carry one child, let alone twins. I'm not a doctor, but maybe her OBGYN recommended it for fear that the 9 year old would not survive giving birth to two babies or having a C-section. Both can be risky procedures for mature women.

I have a 7 year old girl, and I could never in my life imagine her being pregnant in 2 years. If somehow she did become pregnant, I don't think I would ever be able to risk her life because of rape.

I understand being opposed to abortion, but this is clearly not a normal case and religion and pro-life shouldn't be the first things that pop into your mind when you hear something like this.

I understand what you are saying... but I think there is a dichotomy in your thinking that is not present in mine. My thinking is not segmented into religion on Sundays and life on Mondays. Those who do that are wasting thier time because they do not believe what they are saying they believe. What you truly believe is what is lived out, not what is said. My thoughts are for life and health. We will disagree what is best and worst for this girl based on what we perceive to be absolutes and the best in life.

In the end, it is all of our prayers and/or hopes that none of us EVER have to make these kind fo decisions in the first place, because regardless of which one is made... there is devastating loss.

MasterOfPuppets
07-31-2009, 08:39 AM
All religion aside, I doubt it's ever very safe for a 9 year old to carry one child, let alone twins. I'm not a doctor, but maybe her OBGYN recommended it for fear that the 9 year old would not survive giving birth to two babies or having a C-section. Both can be risky procedures for mature women.

I have a 7 year old girl, and I could never in my life imagine her being pregnant in 2 years. If somehow she did become pregnant, I don't think I would ever be able to risk her life because of rape.

I understand being opposed to abortion, but this is clearly not a normal case and religion and pro-life shouldn't be the first things that pop into your mind when you hear something like this.

thats the point i was trying to make. while your wrestling with the moral aspects of abortion , and the psychological effects, you can't lose sight of the fact that if you choose for your child to go through with the birth you could be sacrifising her health or even worse her life. i myself wouldn't be willing to take that chance. preacher supplied data on the psychological effects of abortion , but i bet you can dig up some papers on the pyschlogical affects on mother's who give up the child to adoption as well.

List of youngest birth mothers

1979: A girl aged 10 gave birth to twins six weeks premature, both weighing 3lb 6 oz, at a hospital in Indianapolis. She is thought to have been the youngest mother of twins at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

Hammer Of The GODS
07-31-2009, 09:02 AM
You are neglecting one of the foundational tenets of most religion and that is free will. God does not control every single person, each person is free to choose which decisions they make. While religion may believe God is omnipotent, that doesn't translate into a puppet master.

I'm not trying to criticize your beliefs, don't get me wrong, but saying God somehow "lets" this happen, is sort of misplaced in the context of religion.

How much FREE WILL did the little girl have? Come on!

I NEVER said that god was a "puppet master". What I said is that your god ALLOWS the innocent and helpless to be raped and mutilated.

If you were god would you let the innocent be tortured, abused and murdered?

How in the hell can you worship a god that allows children to be raped, mutilated and murdered?

Oh and by the way, religious people contradict yourselves when they speak of free will. If god did indeed give me free will then why am I damned to hell for simply not believing a fairy tale of epic proportions? I live an honorable and respectful life, I obey the golden rule and I am always there for my fellow man. Yet those choices, the free will to be a good person is not enough. It's all bullshit!

R2sojr
07-31-2009, 09:14 AM
I believe this instance was situational

MasterOfPuppets
07-31-2009, 10:52 AM
How much FREE WILL did the little girl have? Come on!

I NEVER said that god was a "puppet master". What I said is that your god ALLOWS the innocent and helpless to be raped and mutilated.

If you were god would you let the innocent be tortured, abused and murdered?

How in the hell can you worship a god that allows children to be raped, mutilated and murdered?

Oh and by the way, religious people contradict yourselves when they speak of free will. If god did indeed give me free will then why am I damned to hell for simply not believing a fairy tale of epic proportions? I live an honorable and respectful life, I obey the golden rule and I am always there for my fellow man. Yet those choices, the free will to be a good person is not enough. It's all bullshit!



hey you got free will in every aspect of life... it was my decision (free will) to "borrow", my fathers car without his permission... and it was his decision (free will) to kick my ass when he caught me ...:laughing:

SteelersinCA
07-31-2009, 04:41 PM
I imagine she had just as much free will as every one else does. If she chose to fight the guy off and was unsuccessful that doesn't mean she had any less free will. You can't have free will and protection from bad things happening, that's paradoxical. For instance with my free will I choose to shoot you in the head, now God is supposed to magically save you from my free will? Doesn't really make much sense.

It is not my intention to give a lecture on the foundations of Christian belief but God doesn't "allow" bad things to happen to good people, he lets people choose whether to be bad or good.

Maybe the free will to be a good person is enough, who knows, I am not God, but why worry about it or get upset if you don't believe in God? Just as believing in God is not enough to get in. I see no contradiction there.

Preacher
07-31-2009, 05:07 PM
hey you got free will in every aspect of life... it was my decision (free will) to "borrow", my fathers car without his permission... and it was his decision (free will) to kick my ass when he caught me ...:laughing:

:rofl:

Yeeeep... My choice to back my mothers car up like speed racer in a rain storm with the windows all foggy... and hit a cement barrier with a light pole attached..

3000 dollars later . . . luckily none of us were injured.

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-01-2009, 09:07 AM
(though many actually Don't believe in free will when it comes to turning to God or not... but I am not one of those.)

I'm also not a big follower of the "Irresistible Grace-John Piper" crowd.

7SteelGal43
08-02-2009, 12:59 AM
Adoption is NOT the answer there. If you were a female that was incestually raped YOU would not want to carry and raise the child.
YOU also would not want to be a child that was born by incestual rape. Could YOU be happy if thats how you entered the world???
Put yourself in someone elses shoes and stop making judgements on what people should and shouldnt do out of the comfort of your perfect and harmonious life. Whats your biggest problem? cutting down on cholesterol? Let the 9 year old rape victim have an abortion and move on and be glad YOU dont have ANY problems anywhere near as big as her's and keep living your perfect life. :banging:

An abortion does not have the power to remove the pain, trauma or deep emotional scar of being raped. It only creates one more victim of the act.