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View Full Version : Remember that POS Bill "Cash For Clunkers"?


revefsreleets
07-29-2009, 10:37 AM
It was too narrow to begin with, and wasn't going to help much anyway, but it just got worse. Reneg much, Obama?

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1030/clunker-confusion-mpg-figures/;_ylc=X3oDMTFkNnJla280BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLXRv ZGF5BHNsawNjbHVua2VyLWNvbmZ1c2lvbg--


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Some car shoppers are finding that their trade-in vehicles, which qualified for a Cash for Clunkers rebate last week, don't this week thanks to changes in the EPA's fuel economy ratings.

steelreserve
07-29-2009, 10:59 AM
Not to mention this was probably the most futile effort in the world. Taking a handful of older cars off the road and replacing them with only slightly better ones is going to do jack shit for the environment. Especially when China seems to have an entire division of government scientists working on new ways to belch as much smoke and chemicals into the air as humanly possible. Nice Don Quixote-style path we're on here.

revefsreleets
07-29-2009, 11:00 AM
I can't help but think that this is a sign of how "efficiently" the new government run healthcare will work...

"Wait, we changed the income standards today...we'll need that kidney we just transplanted into you back!"

steelreserve
07-29-2009, 11:30 AM
Don't worry, you wouldn't be getting that kidney anyways.

It'd be more like "Sorry, here's a huge tax bill instead! ... Oh, and we gave the kidney to an immigrant from Mexico, and you paid for that too."

revefsreleets
07-29-2009, 11:34 AM
Well, more accurately, after I filled out 300 pages in triplicate of redundant paperwork, was put a ten month waiting list, and had my kidney transplanted INSTEAD of my heart, which was what was really ailing me, when they asked for the kidneys back I'd probably wish for death from dealing with such great "government efficiency" anyway...

Socialized healthcare...can't wait!

MACH1
07-29-2009, 12:27 PM
Don't worry, you wouldn't be getting that kidney anyways.

Sorry, you don't qualify. There are more deserving illegal aliens that need it.

KeiselPower99
07-29-2009, 12:48 PM
Anyone else notice that GM was the only major car company that wouldnt match what the government would give ya.

MasterOfPuppets
07-29-2009, 01:49 PM
Car shoppers have been posting comments on various Internet message boards, including several at the automotive Web site Edmunds.com, describing their frustration with the changes. well at least there was change.....:toofunny:

Dino 6 Rings
07-29-2009, 04:26 PM
Still in love with my Full Size Conversion Van. Might go get a used car some time here soon, but guess what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to trade in my 2001 Malibu with 130,000 miles on it, but still works, for a $35,000 Car.

How about these Car Companies actually LOWER THEIR MF'in PRICES! and then maybe, they will sell more cars?

How about that?

But no, they couldn't do that.

Housing market has completely collapsed and houses that were worth $250,000 2 years ago are now going for $175,000 or less, but Cars, Not Cars, nope. Freaking Cars are up there in the $15,000 - $45,000 range and we are supposed to buy them?

F Off UAW. F Off GM. When I want a "New" Car, I'll be buying a Used Ford.

Dino 6 Rings
07-29-2009, 04:35 PM
Oh, and another thing...And I'm serious...How does the South Korean Owned Car Company Hyundai qualify to give out "Government Sponsored Rebates" to people who buy their car? Why is US Tax Payer Dollars helping a FCKING SOUTH KOREAN FCKING CAR COMPANY!!!!

Seriously...why is that happening?

revefsreleets
07-30-2009, 08:24 AM
Because the bill was, is and will continue to be a lump of shit. It's extremely narrow in the kind of car's covered, too broad in that it covers ANY new car and not just American car companies, it's completely politicized (Financial crisis' are not the time to launch green initiatives), and it doesn't cover used cars at all. Again, it's good for about 130,000 cars over a few months, which is virtually nothing.

jjbrasso
07-30-2009, 09:58 PM
So a few months ago the govt decides they are going to give you an extra $4500 to trade in your old vehicle for a new, more fuel efficient one. Well, the struggling auto indusrty looks at this as an opportunity to sell a lot of thier new cars and spends a lot of money advertising this discount. Barely a week into the program, and now our socialist-like govt cancels the program costing the auto maker smillions upon millions of dollars in wasted money. Great idea, way to go Hussein!

MACH1
07-30-2009, 10:16 PM
What? You expected obaaama to keep his word? Shame on you, shame, shame.

jjbrasso
07-30-2009, 10:35 PM
What? You expected obaaama to keep his word? Shame on you, shame, shame.

Never expected him to keep his word. Just laughing at the ones who did. Haha!

Fire Haley
07-31-2009, 12:20 AM
White House Reviewing 'Cash for Clunkers' Program

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The White House said Thursday it was reviewing what has turned out to be a wildly popular ''cash for clunkers'' program amid concerns the $1 billion budget for rebates for new auto purchases may have been exhausted in only a week.

Transportation Department officials called lawmakers' offices earlier Thursday to alert them of plans to suspend the program as early as Friday. But a White House official said later the program had not been suspended and officials there were assessing their options.

''We are working tonight to assess the situation facing what is obviously an incredibly popular program,'' White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said of the Car Allowance Rebate System. ''Auto dealers and consumers should have confidence that all valid CARS transactions that have taken place to date will be honored.''

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/07/30/us/politics/AP-US-Cash-for-Clunkers.html?_r=1

-------------------------

I demand my gubermint cheeze!

Preacher
07-31-2009, 01:46 AM
:doh:

4500 for a clunker... to go by a new car that they probably cannot afford.

it was this kind of thinking that sunk the mortgage business. GREAT.

stillers4me
07-31-2009, 05:22 AM
:doh:

4500 for a clunker... to go by a new car that they probably cannot afford.

it was this kind of thinking that sunk the mortgage business. GREAT.


That's my tax dollars (and yours) buying someone else a new car. Nice. :coffee:

GBMelBlount
07-31-2009, 07:18 AM
That's my tax dollars (and yours) buying someone else a new car. Nice. :coffee:

Bingo!

jjbrasso
07-31-2009, 08:14 AM
That's my tax dollars (and yours) buying someone else a new car. Nice. :coffee:

Duh. What do you think Obama is all about? A modern day Robin Hood.

Dino 6 Rings
07-31-2009, 08:38 AM
Cash for clunkers program may be running on empty

WASHINGTON (AP) - The government's popular "cash for clunkers" program may be running out of money after only a matter of days as car shoppers flock to dealerships to take advantage of the rebates.

The White House said Thursday it was assessing its options amid concerns the $1 billion budget for rebates for new car sales may have been depleted. The program officially began last week and has been heavily publicized by automakers and dealers.

Transportation Department officials called lawmakers earlier Thursday to alert them of plans to suspend the program as early as Friday. But a White House official said later the program had not been suspended and they were reviewing their options to keep the program funded.

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said they were working to "assess the situation facing what is obviously an incredibly popular program. Auto dealers and consumers should have confidence that all valid CARS transactions that have taken place to date will be honored."

Dubbed the Car Allowance Rebate System, or CARS, the program offers owners of old cars and trucks $3,500 or $4,500 toward a new, more fuel-efficient vehicle, in exchange for scrapping their old vehicle. Congress last month approved the plan to boost auto sales and remove some inefficient cars and trucks from the roads.

The program was scheduled to last through Nov. 1 or until the money ran out, but few predicted it would be depleted in days. Through late Wednesday, 22,782 vehicles had been purchased through CARS and nearly $96 million had been spent.

But dealers raised concerns about large backlogs in the processing of the deals in the government system. A survey of 2,000 dealers by the National Automobile Dealers Association found about 25,000 deals had not yet been approved by the government, or nearly 13 trades per store.

It suggested that with about 23,000 dealers taking part in the program, car dealers may already have surpassed the 250,000 vehicle sales funded by the $1 billion program.

"There's a significant backlog of 'cash for clunkers' deals that make us question how much funding is still available in the program," said Bailey Wood, a spokesman for the dealers association.

The reports that the CARS program could be suspended created confusion among many dealers, who had showrooms filled with car shoppers looking to scrap their gas guzzlers.

Alan Helfman, general manager of River Oaks Chrysler Jeep in Houston, said he was worried that the government wouldn't pay for some of his clunker deals. His dealership has completed paperwork on about 20 sales under the program, but in some cases the titles haven't been obtained yet or the vehicles aren't on his lot.

"There's no doubt I'm going to get hammered on a deal or two," Helfman said.

The clunkers program was set up to boost U.S. auto sales and help struggling automakers through the worst sales slump in more than a quarter-century. Sales for the first half of the year were down 35 percent from the same period in 2008, and analysts are predicting only a modest recovery during the second half of the year.

So far this year, sales are running under an annual rate of 10 million light vehicles, but as recently as 2007, automakers sold more than 16 million cars and light trucks in the United States.

Lawmakers said they would try to find additional funding for the program, which under the legislation could grow to $4 billion for the funding of up to 1 million new car sales.
Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass., who developed the legislation, said he would work with the Obama administration to keep the program going "until it reaches its goal of helping consumers take 1 million gas guzzlers off the road."

Others suggested using unspent economic stimulus funding. "I can think of no better use for unspent stimulus dollars that are gathering dust than financing 'Cash for Clunkers,'" said Rep. Fred Upton, R-Mich. Michigan lawmakers planned to meet on Friday to discuss the program.

Brendan Daly, a spokesman for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said they would work with "the congressional sponsors and the administration to quickly review the results of the initiative."

General Motors Co. spokesman Greg Martin said the automaker hoped "there's a will and way to keep the CARS program going a little bit longer."


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090731/D99PE5280.html

revefsreleets
07-31-2009, 08:51 AM
I'm surprised by a couple things, namely that up to a million cars could be bought. My next question is, who is this helping out, and how? There could be a little silver lining to it if US companies are actually benefiting from this. I'd like to see some hard numbers first, though.

But I do see plenty of problems...it looks like another government run cluster f**k, where it's mismanaged, the right hand doesn't know what the lest is doing, and there's no available "impact statement" letting us know who, if anyone, is really making out on this deal in the long run.

fansince'76
07-31-2009, 08:57 AM
:doh:

4500 for a clunker... to go by a new car that they probably cannot afford.

it was this kind of thinking that sunk the mortgage business. GREAT.

Exactly. $4500 is enough for a down payment on a new car, but the people participating in this program more than likely don't have the financial wherewithal to make the $300-$500 monthly payments for a new car for the next 4-5 years, which is more than likely why they were driving a broken-down dilapidated POS to begin with. And that's assuming they can even get the financing for a new car. I also doubt many folks participating in this program have credit scores of 750 or above, which is about what a person needs to secure credit in this environment without either getting turned down flat or getting out-and-out raped on the interest.

X-Terminator
07-31-2009, 09:30 AM
Exactly. $4500 is enough for a down payment on a new car, but the people participating in this program more than likely don't have the financial wherewithal to make the $300-$500 monthly payments for a new car for the next 4-5 years, which is more than likely why they were driving a broken-down dilapidated POS to begin with. And that's assuming they can even get the financing for a new car. I also doubt many folks participating in this program have credit scores of 750 or above, which is about what a person needs to secure credit in this environment without either getting turned down flat or getting out-and-out raped on the interest.

I have to agree here. It's a good program IF the person buying the new car buys something that fits within their budget. Hopefully I will be in the market for a car in the next 2 months, and I've already figured out that I can afford about a $200 per month payment as an absolute maximum if I buy a new one. That's not going to buy me a luxury car, but it'll get me something decent that will get me around and will save on gas. My credit is not good though, so it'll be more likely I'll be going used. Plus, at many dealerships you can get an extended loan term of up to 84 months rather than the standard 48-60, and that will lessen the payments as well.

Fire Haley
07-31-2009, 09:30 AM
You right-wing radicals will never be happy.

The program was a failure...because it was so successful?

I demand free money too!

revefsreleets
07-31-2009, 09:32 AM
You right-wing radicals will never be happy.

The program was a failure...because it was so successful?

I demand free money too!

Who's getting well from all this?

X-Terminator
07-31-2009, 09:34 AM
You right-wing radicals will never be happy.

The program was a failure...because it was so successful?

I demand free money too!

Nah, it's just that once again, the government underestimated the popularity of the program and left themselves handcuffed and the program underfunded. Par for the course for the joke that is the U.S. Federal Government.

X-Terminator
07-31-2009, 09:38 AM
Who's getting well from all this?

It's pretty obvious that it's meant to give the automakers a boost. You give the people a discount, they go out and buy new cars, and the auto companies benefit. It's a "bailout" in a different sense. If anyone may end up getting hosed on this deal, it's the dealerships and possibly the banks...again...through people buying cars they can't afford.

revefsreleets
07-31-2009, 09:51 AM
Just checked...the combined gas mileage necessary to be eligible is 18 MPH or worse.

My car gets 19.

Yet ANOTHER government plan that I pay for, but can't take advantage of...

I also learned that my "carbon footprint" shows that my car emits 10.9 tons of CO2 a year. Since CO2 is actually tree food, I feel pretty good about that! I also consume 20.4 barrels of oil a year! w00t!

Dino 6 Rings
07-31-2009, 10:04 AM
You right-wing radicals will never be happy.

The program was a failure...because it was so successful?

I demand free money too!

What was it successful at? Running out of TAX PAYER money way ahead of schedule and putting buyers into deeper debt as they traded in working cars for cars that cost between 15,000 and 30,000 bucks? Great plan.

KeiselPower99
07-31-2009, 10:10 AM
Great News!!! The government just approved a additional 2 billion to the program.

43Hitman
07-31-2009, 12:30 PM
Great News!!! The government just approved a additional 2 billion to the program.

And guess where the money comes from? Wait for it, wait for it...The recovery package! Yeah for us! I get to use my tax dollars so my neighbor can get a new car! WOOHOO!

7SteelGal43
08-04-2009, 11:03 AM
Let's see. First we have a government program to help put people in homes (which they can't afford), now the mortgage industry is in a big ol' mess. And currenlty we have a program to help put people in cars (which they can't afford). Oh, and by all means, let's turn healthcare over to them. Remind me again what the definition of insanity is....

revefsreleets
08-04-2009, 11:23 AM
Here's another problem: The system is a WRECK! I know a local dealer who said they have to input the info into the system as many as 7 times because the government site keeps crashing. They are actually doing it at 3 AM now...so far no dealers in Akron that I know has received a dime, and there are no REAL guarantees they ever will. The system is a good idea but horribly implemented.

Healthcare I'm SURE they'll get right, though...:rofl:

7SteelGal43
08-04-2009, 02:06 PM
Healthcare I'm SURE they'll get right, though...:rofl:


Sure they will. I'm not worried. :coffee:

MACH1
08-04-2009, 03:16 PM
A japanese car with our American taxes! It's so nice that we can stimulate foreign auto companies as well. Seriously, how hard would it have been to put in a subject to clause? "Cash for clunkers program for American made autos only."

Seems pretty simple and straight forward..

Freedom of choice. :noidea:

Or saving or creating jobs 4 million jobs, even if they aren't here in the US.

revefsreleets
08-04-2009, 03:19 PM
You guys are forgetting the POINT of this bill: To put more fuel efficient cars on the road. Nevermind that when this is over the average fuel mileage from the cars that were replaced to the cars that will be on the road will probably only be about 4 MPG...AND it's becoming doubtful that the old cars will be scrapped, rather they will be resold and put right back on the road again...

MACH1
08-04-2009, 04:12 PM
You guys are forgetting the POINT of this bill: To put more fuel efficient cars on the road. Nevermind that when this is over the average fuel mileage from the cars that were replaced to the cars that will be on the road will probably only be about 4 MPG...AND it's becoming doubtful that the old cars will be scrapped, rather they will be resold and put right back on the road again...

It's also about bailing out GM and Chrysler.

#1 car that my tax money is buying - Ford Focus.
Guess people think the government already gets enough of their money, not buying into Government Motors anymore than they have to.

Stlrs4Life
08-04-2009, 09:00 PM
LOL< you guys are a joke. Boo hoo, I didn't have a car that qualified now you want to cry. Your just pissed cause it actually worked. Had a few issues that needed worked out. But it worked. And no you are not buying somebody a new car, they still have to pay for it.

Stlrs4Life
08-04-2009, 09:02 PM
It's also about bailing out GM and Chrysler.

#1 car that my tax money is buying - Ford Focus.
Guess people think the government already gets enough of their money, not buying into Government Motors anymore than they have to.



BS. Toyota and Honda gained from it also. That's the problem I have with it, it should only have been available for GM, Ford or Chrysler.

Stlrs4Life
08-04-2009, 09:04 PM
You guys are forgetting the POINT of this bill: To put more fuel efficient cars on the road. Nevermind that when this is over the average fuel mileage from the cars that were replaced to the cars that will be on the road will probably only be about 4 MPG...AND it's becoming doubtful that the old cars will be scrapped, rather they will be resold and put right back on the road again...


So what? 4 mpg is alot better than what they were getting! My truck gets 19-20 city, I would love it if it got 23 city! You guys need to quit drinking Limbaughs man goo.

MACH1
08-04-2009, 09:05 PM
Umm Yeah. I always wanted to pay for someone else's car. :doh:

MACH1
08-04-2009, 09:08 PM
BS. Toyota and Honda gained from it also. That's the problem I have with it, it should only have been available for GM, Ford or Chrysler.

Drunk on koolaid again I see.

Ford has the #1 selling car on that program. Do your homework!

7SteelGal43
08-04-2009, 10:18 PM
...AND it's becoming doubtful that the old cars will be scrapped, rather they will be resold and put right back on the road again...

Either way, it's yet another empty liberal gesture.

7SteelGal43
08-04-2009, 10:29 PM
LOL< you guys are a joke. Boo hoo, I didn't have a car that qualified now you want to cry. Your just pissed cause it actually worked. Had a few issues that needed worked out. But it worked. And no you are not buying somebody a new car, they still have to pay for it.

Of course it worked. The government is paying $4500 towards a new car. But, where is the government getting $4500 per car.......the taxpayer. As for "they still have to pay for it".....let's just wait and see who actually ends up paying for it.

X-Terminator
08-04-2009, 11:58 PM
LOL< you guys are a joke. Boo hoo, I didn't have a car that qualified now you want to cry. Your just pissed cause it actually worked. Had a few issues that needed worked out. But it worked. And no you are not buying somebody a new car, they still have to pay for it.

The car is still being covered in part by our tax dollars. Or does that $4500 just appear out of thin air?

At some point, you and most other Democrats will have to understand that this is not the government's money, it's the PEOPLE's money, that pays for programs like this. If people didn't work and pay taxes, the government has no money to spend. It's really that simple.

No, the problem people have with it is NOT that it worked. The problem is that, once again, the feds are promoting irresponsibility. Why in the world would they, in the middle of what they call the "worst recession since the Great Depression," sponsor a program that is only going to cause people to pile on more debt that they can't handle? Isn't that a large part of the reason why we're in this mess to begin with? The auto companies are going to be the winners here, whether it's GM or Toyota, and the losers will be the taxpayers, the dealerships and the banks, again, when many of those who take advantage of the program are unable to pay back their car loans.

tony hipchest
08-05-2009, 12:02 AM
heres the deal.... NOBODY should EVER pay more than 25%-33% less than the sticker price of a new car, and thats even w/o this program.

with this program, i am considering trading in a clunker. i dont need a new car, wouldnt drive it, and would put 2 perfectly fine vehicles out of use. :noidea: howeva....

fact is, i can buy a rolling clunker from a junkyard for $300 bucks, walk into a dealership with a fist full of cash, and walk out with a brand new car at a 40-50% "discount".

or i can not. the dealership who really wants MY business will take MY deal.

ultimately for them it is more about moving product than it is profit margin. they need my business more than i need a car. :noidea:

(car salesmen really hate me when i go looking for bargains before x-mas when they are looking to make a commission.)

this deal is a TAX BREAK for anyone rich, poor, or in between, who choses to purchase.

i dont feel sorry for anyone who has a penis small enough that they feel they NEED a bently or a hummer to get to work everyday w/o the benefit.

im also not suprised to see all the bitching and whining on this board about tax breaks (being that its not "their guy" imposing them).

tony hipchest
08-05-2009, 12:07 AM
At some point, you and most other Democrats will have to understand that this is not the government's money, it's the PEOPLE's .

boo hoo.

THE PEOPLE have voted to have democrats represent them. those who dont like it can either deal, or admit they are anti- democracy.

take your pick. :coffee:

at some point your and most other anti-democrats will have to undestand that.

it is what it is. those who dont like our system are free to either vote, or move the f--k on out.

X-Terminator
08-05-2009, 12:26 AM
boo hoo.

THE PEOPLE have voted to have democrats represent them. those who dont like it can either deal, or admit they are anti- democracy.

take your pick. :coffee:

at some point your and most other anti-democrats will have to undestand that.

it is what it is. those who dont like our system are free to either vote, or move the f--k on out.

Didn't know that pointing out that many Democrats believe that the money the government spends is "government money" and not the people's money somehow meant that I was anti-democracy, but oh well. :noidea:

The government HAS no money until WE, THE PEOPLE, give it to them. And that is a fact.

Do you wish to dispute that?

tony hipchest
08-05-2009, 12:35 AM
Didn't know that pointing out that many Democrats believe that the money the government spends is "government money" and not the people's money somehow meant that I was anti-democracy, but oh well. :noidea:

The government HAS no money until WE, THE PEOPLE, give it to them. And that is a fact.

Do you wish to dispute that?nope.

and we have no freedoms until OUR GOVERNEMENT gives us them. do you wish to dispute that? (i will actually try to fit in that argument amongst all the training camp news if you wish. i will be out of town for about 4 days so, be patient and dont be so low to accuse me of dodging youre responses like others in the past have as i deal with family emergencies.)

dont forget you live in the greatest country on the planet...

SteelersinCA
08-05-2009, 12:36 AM
BS. Toyota and Honda gained from it also. That's the problem I have with it, it should only have been available for GM, Ford or Chrysler.

Why don't we just pass legislation to outlaw foreign cars? Oh that's right because according to the government standards about 80% of a Toyota car is american made and 80% of Ford is american made. Let's just ignore that and only allow it for the "little 3."

X-Terminator
08-05-2009, 12:51 AM
nope.

and we have no freedoms until OUR GOVERNEMENT gives us them. do you wish to dispute that? (i will actually try to fit in that argument amongst all the training camp news if you wish. i will be out of town for about 4 days so, be patient and dont be so low to accuse me of dodging youre responses like others in the past have as i deal with family emergencies.)

dont forget you live in the greatest country on the planet...

No, although it's a two-way street in that the government doesn't have the power to grant us anything unless we give it to them, but in the context of this discussion, I won't dispute it.

Yes we do live in the greatest country on the planet. But I feel it can be even better if we can finally get some common sense and some restraint out of Washington. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening any time soon.

tony hipchest
08-05-2009, 01:05 AM
Unfortunately, I don't see it happening any time soon.
me neither.

until then, me purchasing a new car when i relly dont need one, helps the economy more than it hurts it.

really, who walks better in a pair of nikes as opposed to some buddies. i still get their all the same.

living in america has become how cool one looks (and the inherent cost that goes with that).

X-Terminator
08-05-2009, 02:15 AM
me neither.

until then, me purchasing a new car when i relly dont need one, helps the economy more than it hurts it.

really, who walks better in a pair of nikes as opposed to some buddies. i still get their all the same.

living in america has become how cool one looks (and the inherent cost that goes with that).

In the short term, yes. In the long run, it hurts more than it helps for some of the reasons I specified earlier.

But you're right - America basically is a status-driven society. It isn't about what's sensible or practical, it's about "keeping up with the Joneses" and "I want it NOW." And that mentality has slipped into the political arena. Nobody has the balls to come out and actually tell the people that they're going to have to learn to do more with less in the short-term if things are going to improve in the long run. Not if he or she wants to get elected, anyway.

revefsreleets
08-05-2009, 08:07 AM
Correction: This plan has not "worked". As I stated, there isn't a single dealer I know of (and my station works with most of them) in this area who have received a penny form this program yet. MANY are worried they never will. One of the bigger dealers we work with estimates from the first run he's got over 200k coming, but he's not confident he'll see any of it, and he knows he DEFINITELY won't see all of it. He'll have to take a loss on that...

Guess what...this was a decent idea IF DONE CORRECTLY. But it was heavily flawed. It was too narrow in that it only affected new cars. The government had no infrastructure to handle this kind of program, hence the nightmare of crashing sites and stacks of complicated paperwork. It was also not well designed to begin with, which is why there are continued problems with shifting MPG thresholds, cars being approved then having that approval revoked.

This is what happens when the government tries to help, even when it's intentions are good. The taxpayer is left holding the bag once again. The plan, while helpful on paper, was flawed, the paperwork a mess, the system screwed up, and all because it was ramrodded through as a quick fix before the infrastructure was in place to do it right.

There is also possibly a sinister element to this. One of the bigger dealerships in the area took one look at the paperwork hoops he'd have to jump through and declined to participate. While sales in this area are down 42% overall, HIS are up 57% from last year, and he just didn't need the headache. Open the paper this morning and discover that this guy lost his Chevy franchise today. As of October 1st, he is no longer, after 66 years, a Chevy dealer. Explanation from GM: "We can't tell you why". Literally. That's what they said.

He's the largest Chevy dealer in Summit county. His sales are up. He declines to participate in this government nightmare of bureaucracy, and "Poof!", he's a Chevy dealer no more.

revefsreleets
08-05-2009, 08:21 AM
I found this blog which explains things nicely...basically, the program will fail because it will crush itself under it's own (governmental) weight. Mine you, this was written before these problems really started piling up, and obviously they will extend funding for now, but the potential for this worst-case scenario is VERY real:

Cash for Clunkers is officially a success. Consumers are streaming into showrooms and cars are selling. But less than a month into the plan, that success is generating concerns among dealers which may stall the program less than a month into it.

The problem has to do with money, paperwork and time.

The government has allocated $1 billion for the Cars Allowance Rebate System (CARS), better known as Cash for Clunkers. With approximately 20,000 dealers and brands (the same dealers can apply for each brand they sell) approved, and an average of $4,000 per vehicle credit, each dealer can sell 12-13 cars before the $1 billion total allocation runs out. ([$1,000,000,000 / 20,000 brands/dealers = $50,000 per dealer] / $4,000 per car = 12.5 cars per dealer/brand).

Dealers provide the credit to the buyer upon sale of the car. The discount comes off their balance sheet, and they then wait for the government to repay them and make up the difference. One dealer I spoke with said it is currently about a 10 day wait between the sale and when the government rebate arrives. However, as the program grows and the volume of paperwork increases, there is fear that delay may widen. That gap may eventually drain the program of funds even as some car dealers wait for their sales to be processed, resulting in the government denying the rebate and forcing the dealer to eat the loss. None of the dealers I spoke with said they could handle losing $3,500-$4,500 per car.

It is the success of the program that is resulting in the concern.

Three of the five dealers I spoke with as of 4pm ET on Wednesday have sold more than 12 cars under the program. One dealer had sold seven cars but had only begun applying the program since Monday. That sales pace would have them sell about 13 vehicles by the end of this month. Naturally every dealer is going to sell as many as they can and file the paperwork as fast as they are able, potentially jamming up the system and leaving the government and dealers with a big hole in funds.

The result is that a number of car dealers are reporting that they are quietly pulling back on selling cars under the program for fear they may not be paid back by the government. Others tell Fox Business they are not delivering cars to buying customers until the government check clears and that some buyers may have to wait weeks to pick up a car they have already purchased. Of course, even a few weeks is a small price to pay for $4,500 bucks off the price, but it does give consumers precious time to reconsider their purchase.

So for consumers interested in the plan the message is clear: don't wait to buy, or be willing to wait for your car. The funds may run out well before the clunkers' program is scheduled in end in November.

As of late afternoon on Wednesday, the CARS calculator indicates about $850 million remaining in the program. This calculator however has not been updated since early Tuesday morning, and it is unclear how many cars have been sold in the past 36 hours. Remember, even in a slow economy, 250,000 cars is actually only about a week's worth of auto sales.

Dealers believe the government needs to provide guarantees they will be repaid, or be willing to extend the program's financial allocation.

And consumers, always remember to get your deal in writing, especially if you must wait to take delivery of your new car.

X-Terminator
08-05-2009, 09:00 AM
Correction: This plan has not "worked". As I stated, there isn't a single dealer I know of (and my station works with most of them) in this area who have received a penny form this program yet. MANY are worried they never will. One of the bigger dealers we work with estimates from the first run he's got over 200k coming, but he's not confident he'll see any of it, and he knows he DEFINITELY won't see all of it. He'll have to take a loss on that...

Guess what...this was a decent idea IF DONE CORRECTLY. But it was heavily flawed. It was too narrow in that it only affected new cars. The government had no infrastructure to handle this kind of program, hence the nightmare of crashing sites and stacks of complicated paperwork. It was also not well designed to begin with, which is why there are continued problems with shifting MPG thresholds, cars being approved then having that approval revoked.

This is what happens when the government tries to help, even when it's intentions are good. The taxpayer is left holding the bag once again. The plan, while helpful on paper, was flawed, the paperwork a mess, the system screwed up, and all because it was ramrodded through as a quick fix before the infrastructure was in place to do it right.

There is also possibly a sinister element to this. One of the bigger dealerships in the area took one look at the paperwork hoops he'd have to jump through and declined to participate. While sales in this area are down 42% overall, HIS are up 57% from last year, and he just didn't need the headache. Open the paper this morning and discover that this guy lost his Chevy franchise today. As of October 1st, he is no longer, after 66 years, a Chevy dealer. Explanation from GM: "We can't tell you why". Literally. That's what they said.

He's the largest Chevy dealer in Summit county. His sales are up. He declines to participate in this government nightmare of bureaucracy, and "Poof!", he's a Chevy dealer no more.

Wow.

Well, that settles it for me, and validates my point. This plan is designed to benefit the auto dealers, with dealerships getting the royal screwjob. And the taxpayers are next in line. Why else would GM say that? It's all about making money for them, plain and simple. Plus, participation in a government program by force is so against what this country is all about. That's what they do in places like Venezuela. Not the USA!

Still though, the premise is good, and you can label the program a success in that people are taking advantage of it. But, as usual, the feds find a way to completely eff it up.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
08-05-2009, 09:28 AM
I think what can be learned from this Cash For Clunkers is this:

If the car companies lower there prices, people will go out and buy a new car. Simple as that

RunWillieRun
08-05-2009, 09:33 AM
Anyone else pissed off that your tax dollars are going to help someone else buy a car?

Correction: Anyone else pissed off that your GRANDCHILDREN'S tax dollars are going to help someone else buy a car?

After all, this money is being borrowed...

beSteelmyheart
08-05-2009, 05:23 PM
The problem is that, once again, the feds are promoting irresponsibility. Why in the world would they, in the middle of what they call the "worst recession since the Great Depression," sponsor a program that is only going to cause people to pile on more debt that they can't handle? Isn't that a large part of the reason why we're in this mess to begin with? The auto companies are going to be the winners here, whether it's GM or Toyota, and the losers will be the taxpayers, the dealerships and the banks, again, when many of those who take advantage of the program are unable to pay back their car loans.
Exactly!
And you would think that American consumers would learn a lesson from this.
I understand that there are many who still have secure jobs but things are pretty scary for those of us who are unemployed or dealing with reduced hours. Give it 6 months & the repossession industry will be booming, & not too long after that the market will be flooded with repossessed/used cars & like the housing market, those who were patient & responsible with their finances can pick up a good deal.

7SteelGal43
08-05-2009, 06:19 PM
nope.

and we have no freedoms until OUR GOVERNEMENT gives us them. do you wish to dispute that? (i will actually try to fit in that argument amongst all the training camp news if you wish. i will be out of town for about 4 days so, be patient and dont be so low to accuse me of dodging youre responses like others in the past have as i deal with family emergencies.)

dont forget you live in the greatest country on the planet...

Yes...I wish to dispute that. I am literaly shaking with rage as I read this horses***. Read the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,


It's written in English, it's not paraphrased, you can see photos of the actual document and even look at it in person if you so choose and see that the above words are the exact words the founding fathers put pen to paper for posterity. Could it BE any clearer that the founding fathers were saying that rights, including LIBERTY (or freedom) come from THE CREATOR, not the government. They make it clear that the governments job is to PRESERVE those rights, it doesn't give them. They aren't even doing a good job of that lately. Furthermore, government itself gets it's POWER from US. How could it possibly be any clearer. We are now generations removed from these great men who formed our country and the government that is supposed to preserve these rights is actually limiting them. Yes, we live in a democracy and I love it. That does not mean I'm anti-democracy when I voice my right of dissent towards those elected. And I'm d*** sure not gonna sit back, shrug my shoulders, and say "oh well, I guess they know what's best".

Stlrs4Life
08-05-2009, 08:12 PM
I found this blog which explains things nicely...basically, the program will fail because it will crush itself under it's own (governmental) weight. Mine you, this was written before these problems really started piling up, and obviously they will extend funding for now, but the potential for this worst-case scenario is VERY real:

Cash for Clunkers is officially a success. Consumers are streaming into showrooms and cars are selling. But less than a month into the plan, that success is generating concerns among dealers which may stall the program less than a month into it.

The problem has to do with money, paperwork and time.

The government has allocated $1 billion for the Cars Allowance Rebate System (CARS), better known as Cash for Clunkers. With approximately 20,000 dealers and brands (the same dealers can apply for each brand they sell) approved, and an average of $4,000 per vehicle credit, each dealer can sell 12-13 cars before the $1 billion total allocation runs out. ([$1,000,000,000 / 20,000 brands/dealers = $50,000 per dealer] / $4,000 per car = 12.5 cars per dealer/brand).

Dealers provide the credit to the buyer upon sale of the car. The discount comes off their balance sheet, and they then wait for the government to repay them and make up the difference. One dealer I spoke with said it is currently about a 10 day wait between the sale and when the government rebate arrives. However, as the program grows and the volume of paperwork increases, there is fear that delay may widen. That gap may eventually drain the program of funds even as some car dealers wait for their sales to be processed, resulting in the government denying the rebate and forcing the dealer to eat the loss. None of the dealers I spoke with said they could handle losing $3,500-$4,500 per car.

It is the success of the program that is resulting in the concern.

Three of the five dealers I spoke with as of 4pm ET on Wednesday have sold more than 12 cars under the program. One dealer had sold seven cars but had only begun applying the program since Monday. That sales pace would have them sell about 13 vehicles by the end of this month. Naturally every dealer is going to sell as many as they can and file the paperwork as fast as they are able, potentially jamming up the system and leaving the government and dealers with a big hole in funds.

The result is that a number of car dealers are reporting that they are quietly pulling back on selling cars under the program for fear they may not be paid back by the government. Others tell Fox Business they are not delivering cars to buying customers until the government check clears and that some buyers may have to wait weeks to pick up a car they have already purchased. Of course, even a few weeks is a small price to pay for $4,500 bucks off the price, but it does give consumers precious time to reconsider their purchase.

So for consumers interested in the plan the message is clear: don't wait to buy, or be willing to wait for your car. The funds may run out well before the clunkers' program is scheduled in end in November.

As of late afternoon on Wednesday, the CARS calculator indicates about $850 million remaining in the program. This calculator however has not been updated since early Tuesday morning, and it is unclear how many cars have been sold in the past 36 hours. Remember, even in a slow economy, 250,000 cars is actually only about a week's worth of auto sales.

Dealers believe the government needs to provide guarantees they will be repaid, or be willing to extend the program's financial allocation.

And consumers, always remember to get your deal in writing, especially if you must wait to take delivery of your new car.


I talked to a salesman yesterday, and he basically said the same. He also stated that they are waiting on the money, and will get it.

tony hipchest
08-05-2009, 08:16 PM
Yes...I wish to dispute that. I am literaly shaking with rage as I read this horses***. Read the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,


It's written in English, it's not paraphrased, you can see photos of the actual document and even look at it in person if you so choose and see that the above words are the exact words the founding fathers put pen to paper for posterity. Could it BE any clearer that the founding fathers were saying that rights, including LIBERTY (or freedom) come from THE CREATOR, not the government. They make it clear that the governments job is to PRESERVE those rights, it doesn't give them. They aren't even doing a good job of that lately. Furthermore, government itself gets it's POWER from US. How could it possibly be any clearer. We are now generations removed from these great men who formed our country and the government that is supposed to preserve these rights is actually limiting them. Yes, we live in a democracy and I love it. That does not mean I'm anti-democracy when I voice my right of dissent towards those elected. And I'm d*** sure not gonna sit back, shrug my shoulders, and say "oh well, I guess they know what's best".

:chuckle: BRRRRRR! shake away... its hot here, i will continue to enjoy the breeze. :yap:

so, according to your little document there, you are saying that your CREATOR made woman subservient to man and that negros and the savage indians are nothing more than wild animals to be bought, sold, and slaughtered.

gotcha.

the founding fathers probably wouldnt even allow you to voice your OPINION in such a public manner as you just did. they mightve even had you tied to a stake and burnt alive in salem.

you can believe whatever you believe but the FACT is the govt gave you the right to vote. the govt abolished slavery. the govt ended the practice of genocide on native americans. the govt drafted our young men to fight the wars and keep us safe and preserve the liberties we have and enjoy.

not God.

maybe you should take your rant to china, russia, n. korea, or just about any muslim nation and sell them the giant steamer that its not the govt who gives and takes their rights or freedoms away.

until then, if i want a sermon, i will get it from a much more credible source.

:kiss02:

Stlrs4Life
08-05-2009, 08:25 PM
By JOSEPH R. SZCZESNY Joseph R. Szczesny Wed Aug 5, 6:00 pm ET

With its awful name and convoluted rules, the cash-for-clunkers program might well have been a flop, yet it turned into a surprising success, even inspiring many of its critics to call for an additional $2 billion in funding. One big reason: the program boosted July 2009 sales of new cars and trucks, giving the economy a bit of a lift.

Some of the biggest gains during July were posted by small foreign carmakers such as Subaru, Hyundai and Kia, whose sales jumped 34%, 22% and 9%, respectively. Hyundai in particular was well prepared for the program from a marketing standpoint, having encouraged dealers to accept qualifying trade-ins nearly two weeks before the U.S. Department of Transportation launched its official cash-for-clunkers website. The payoff is already filtering through to workers. "Hyundai Motor Manufacturing Alabama is now increasing production by returning to a five-day workweek in July after being on a shortened workweek since mid-October," said Dave Zuchowski, vice president of national sales. (See the 50 worst cars of all time.)

The big domestic carmakers - Ford Motor Co., General Motors and Chrysler - had less frothy numbers but still managed to pick up market share in July for the first time in months, at the expense of German and Japanese competitors. Ford emerged as one the program's biggest winners, posting a genuine sales increase for July over the same period last year; the automaker could also lay claim to the top vehicle purchased with clunker cash: the compact Ford Focus.

Ken Czubay, Ford vice president for U.S. marketing, sales and service, said Ford already had a relatively strong month in progress before the cash-for-clunkers program started, but it certainly helped. "We achieved a sales increase even though we decreased incentive spending in an increasingly competitive environment," he said. (See the most important cars of all time.)

Even Chrysler managed to draw some good news from the program. "While we don't expect the industry sales forecast to change dramatically, we are seeing encouraging signs that consumer confidence is building and more consumers are considering purchasing a new vehicle," said Peter Fong, the lead executive for Chrysler's reorganized sales organization. The automaker's total sales dropped 9% for July, but dealer inventories declined significantly and retail sales grew as consumer traffic more than doubled in the last week of the month, Fong said.

GM, which sold more vehicles in July than in June - and had a nice 16% improvement in pickup sales - lavished praise on the program and pressed for its continuation. "The government's program is doing what it is designed to do - spur consumers to trade in older gas guzzlers for new, fuel-efficient vehicles," said Mark LaNeve, GM vice president for sales. The Department of Transportation confirmed the fuel-efficiency gains on Monday, Aug. 3, noting that of the 120,000 rebate applications processed so far, the cars purchased have been far more fuel-efficient than the minimum requirements to qualify for the highest rebates. But GM's July news wasn't all good: though sales were up month to month, they are still down 18% from July of last year. (Watch a video about an optimistic Dodge dealer.)

Japanese automakers fared less well. Toyota reported that its sales tumbled 11% year over year in July, while Nissan's fell nearly 25% and Honda's fell 17%, despite the government incentive program. However, Jim Lentz, Toyota Motor Sales president, said the cash-for-clunkers program reduced the recessionary drag on sales and offered a nice dividend for the environment. "Clunker-related Toyota sales over the seven days alone will save customers an estimated 8 million gal. of gas and $20 million in gas spending over the next year," he said. (See the best cars from the 2009 Detroit Auto Show.)

Dealers, while loathing the 136 pages of rules surrounding the program and criticizing the government's unfriendly website for processing claims, are uniformly eager to see the program continue. "You've got to understand, I'm for anything that helps sell cars," noted a Michigan dealer, who described how he had to painstakingly feed claims into the site.

Not everyone sees the program as a win-win. Economist David Rosenberg at Toronto investment firm Gluskin Sheff worries that today's sales boost could lead to tomorrow's sales slump. He likens the current cash-for-clunker boost to the 0% financing that automakers introduced in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks in 2001. As a result of those incentives, motor-vehicle sales perked up and the economy got a nice boost. "But what all these gimmicks do is bring forward consumption - they don't create anything more than a brief spending splurge at the expense of future performance," Rosenberg says in a new report, pointing out that after the post-9/11 financing incentive ended, sales dropped back down.

silver & black
08-05-2009, 09:07 PM
:chuckle: BRRRRRR! shake away... its hot here, i will continue to enjoy the breeze. :yap:

so, according to your little document there, you are saying that your CREATOR made woman subservient to man and that negros and the savage indians are nothing more than wild animals to be bought, sold, and slaughtered.

gotcha.

the founding fathers probably wouldnt even allow you to voice your OPINION in such a public manner as you just did. they mightve even had you tied to a stake and burnt alive in salem.

you can believe whatever you believe but the FACT is the govt gave you the right to vote. the govt abolished slavery. the govt ended the practice of genocide on native americans. the govt drafted our young men to fight the wars and keep us safe and preserve the liberties we have and enjoy.

not God.

maybe you should take your rant to china, russia, n. korea, or just about any muslim nation and sell them the giant steamer that its not the govt who gives and takes their rights or freedoms away.

until then, if i want a sermon, i will get it from a much more credible source.

:kiss02:

And who/what is "the Government"???

X-Terminator
08-06-2009, 01:40 AM
I think what can be learned from this Cash For Clunkers is this:

If the car companies lower there prices, people will go out and buy a new car. Simple as that

Car companies still have to pay for labor, which is a large part of the reason why cars cost as much as they do. Taxes, parts, shipping costs, etc. also factor in, but labor costs is the big one. The companies will simply continue to pass those costs on to the consumer so long as labor costs increase at a high rate.

tony hipchest
08-06-2009, 01:46 AM
And who/what is "the Government"???its kind of a moot point as far as the context of my particulat post is concerned, but i guess it depends on who you ask.

some people who have never, ever ran for public office would convince others that THEY are the government, simply because their governmet has granted them the right and priveledge to vote.

silver & black
08-06-2009, 06:02 AM
its kind of a moot point as far as the context of my particulat post is concerned, but i guess it depends on who you ask.

some people who have never, ever ran for public office would convince others that THEY are the government, simply because their governmet has granted them the right and priveledge to vote.


If that is true, the Constitution is a useless piece of paper.

revefsreleets
08-06-2009, 08:41 AM
A) Some of the biggest gains during July were posted by small foreign carmakers such as Subaru, Hyundai and Kia, whose sales jumped 34%, 22% and 9%, respectively.
B) Economist David Rosenberg at Toronto investment firm Gluskin Sheff worries that today's sales boost could lead to tomorrow's sales slump. He likens the current cash-for-clunker boost to the 0% financing that automakers introduced in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks in 2001. As a result of those incentives, motor-vehicle sales perked up and the economy got a nice boost. "But what all these gimmicks do is bring forward consumption - they don't create anything more than a brief spending splurge at the expense of future performance,"

Dino 6 Rings
08-06-2009, 11:30 AM
Hey everyone, the economy is in the tank, 34 Million people are on Food Stamps and job loss grows and grows...Lets all Go Buy New Cars and pick up even More Debt!!! Yippie Skippy.

Sigh...2000 Ford Taurus, 2000 Ford Econoline Full Size Van, 2001 Chevy Malibu...Don't Fail Me Now!!!

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/reuters/2009/08/06/2009-08-06T152646Z_01_N06328040_RTRIDST_0_FOODSTAMPS-USA.html

7SteelGal43
08-06-2009, 12:49 PM
some people who have never, ever ran for public office would convince others that THEY are the government, simply because their governmet has granted them the right and priveledge to vote.


Does that mentality scare the hell out of anyone else ? When all power is given to the central government with the voice of the people having no effect on how they govern, you get Marxism, Socialism, Communism, Dictactorship. Thanks, but I think I'll keep my right to vote AND have my voice heard between elections.

7SteelGal43
08-06-2009, 01:09 PM
:

so, according to your little document there


Wow.....just Wow. With that one little statement, referring to the Declaration of Independence as "your little document there" tells me all I need to know about you. Kinda takes away credibility from your entire post.

revefsreleets
08-07-2009, 08:56 AM
Another Inconvenient Truth....

http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/52632652.html

Folly of cash for clunkers

By John L. Chapman

Published on Friday, Aug 07, 2009

WASHINGTON: In sponsoring the recently enacted Consumer Assistance to Recycle and Save Act (CARS), Betty Sutton, a Copley Township Democrat, had her biggest moment as a U.S. House memeber. Better known as ''cash for clunkers,'' this federal program provides vouchers of up to $4,500 to U.S. residents toward the purchase of new, more fuel-efficient vehicles when trading in a vehicle that gets no more than 18 miles per gallon. The trade-in vehicles can be any age, and while many of them still work perfectly well, they must be scrapped.

The federal dollars are in addition to a dealer-designated scrap value of the trade-in, all applied to the purchase price of the new vehicle.

Sutton's efforts led to solid congressional majority votes for the program, which enjoys wide support. For instance, noted economist and former Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Alan Blinder says that clunkers is a ''public policy trifecta — [by] stimulating the economy, improving the environment and reducing income inequality all at the same time.''

And the Akron Beacon Journal editorial board adds that it is a ''sound investment'' which shores up employment in the auto industry and its many suppliers, while reducing dependence on foreign oil.

Unfortunately, that's not accurate. Cash for clunkers is best seen as a perfect example of why economic illiteracy — evident both in our politicians and even sometimes in noted economists — is so damaging to our economy now.

The clunkers program is the latest example of French economist Frederic Bastiat's warning to always analyze secondary, unseen effects as well as the primary effects of any policy; that is to say, to fully reflect all costs, as well as benefits of a program, when determining its efficacy.

Bastiat's famous 1850 parable on the matter is instructive for today, and is modernized as follows: A boy breaks a windowpane in a shop-keeper's storefront. Soon, a crowd gathers to sympathize with the shopkeeper's distress at his loss. But then someone points out that this will in fact ''stimulate'' the local economy. After all, the shopkeeper will hire a glazier to cut and install a new glass windowpane. The glazier will in turn spend his windfall elsewhere, perhaps by buying a new suit from the tailor. The tailor will likewise spend money buying shoes from the cobbler, and so on, in a continual round of transactions later known as the ''Keynesian multiplier'' effect.

Voila! Far from scolding the boy, we should thank him for the jobs he has created!

This spending-creates-wealth theory is at the heart of much current economic policy, including cash for clunkers. But it's a giant fallacy; Bastiat reminded us to remember the unseen effects, too.

The shopkeeper is now poorer, and instead of buying a new refrigerator, he must now buy the replacement window. So the glazier's gain is the appliance-maker's loss. And instead of having a window and a new refrigerator, now the shopkeeper has only the replacement window. In turn, the appliance-maker now cannot buy the new computer he needs, and a whole series of transactions ensuing from that will not happen.

A lesson from the parable is that government spending cannot create wealth; it can at best redistribute it, often accompanied by waste. The clunkers program certainly helps auto manufacturers, sellers and participating buyers, today; this is what's seen. But it hurts used-car buyers, who now face constricted supply, along with used-car dealers, repair shops, parts suppliers, mechanics and a myriad number of businesses in other industries who face lower sales revenues.

These are often people of modest income, whom U.S. Rep. Sutton claims to care about. It also means fewer new car sales tomorrow, and more burden on hard-pressed taxpayers.

Americans now recognize that trillions in ''stimulus'' spending actually means trillions in new taxes (along with, eventually, higher inflation and interest rates, and a weaker dollar).

Further, for whatever percentage of the 700,000 or so scrapped vehicles that are still serviceable, the program represents sheer destruction of valuable property, just like the broken window. And even environmental advocates such as MIT's Henry Jacoby admit that the benefit from this in terms of reduced carbon emissions is negligible: The Department of Transportation figures that replacing 700,000 clunkers will reduce carbon-dioxide emissions by just one ten-thousandth of 1 percent per year, or about 57 minutes' worth of a full-year's greenhouse emissions.

Likewise, America will be using nearly 72 million fewer gallons of gasoline a year because of the program, based on the first quarter-million vehicles replaced. The Department of Energy says U.S. drivers go through that amount of gas every 41/2 hours.

There is another aspect to the clunkers program as a ''teachable moment'': The government was supposed to have the program activated on July 1, for a period estimated to last until Nov. 1. Instead, federal administrative glitches held up the commencement until July 24, and funds were almost exhausted after one week. This from the same federal government that spent $425 billion on Medicare in 2009 after assuring us that the program would never exceed more than $5 billion per year back in 1965, and the same federal government that carves out a monopoly for itself in first-class mail delivery, but still cannot turn a profit.

Overall, cash for clunkers is another lesson in how a bureaucratic economy operates, one which denizens of European welfare states and their 30 percent lower standard of living know all too well.
Chapman, an Akron native, is an economist at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, D.C.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
08-09-2009, 06:45 PM
Car companies still have to pay for labor, which is a large part of the reason why cars cost as much as they do. Taxes, parts, shipping costs, etc. also factor in, but labor costs is the big one. The companies will simply continue to pass those costs on to the consumer so long as labor costs increase at a high rate.

but $50,000 dollars for a freaking Camaro? Come on! :banging:

Dino 6 Rings
08-27-2009, 08:23 AM
Pretty sure I called this weeks ago...

Japanese, Koreans gain most from cash for clunkers

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Japanese and South Korean automakers registered the biggest market share gains in the U.S. government's "cash for clunkers" program that ended this week with bankruptcy related inventory shortages hurting General Motors Co GM.UL and Chrysler.

Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) Honda Motor Co Ltd (7267.T), Nissan Motor Co Ltd (7201.T), Hyundai Motor Co (005380.KS) capitalized on the program's goal of pushing consumers away from gas guzzling sport utilities and pickups, to more efficient cars and trucks, preliminary sales figures showed on Wednesday.

Overseas manufacturers dominate in car sales, while U.S. companies have been stronger in the light truck segment. Cars outsold trucks 2-1 under the "clunker" initiative.

Ford Motor Co (F.N) was the only domestic manufacturer to hold its own in market share compared with its performance so far this year, while GM slipped and Chrysler stumbled noticeably.

GM spokesman Greg Martin said the company, which slowed production significantly during the spring and its early summer bankruptcy, recorded brisk sales of Malibu, Cobalt and other car models in the first weeks of the program.

"We were running thin going into the summer to begin with and, as the program went on, inventory levels play(ed) a part," Martin said.

Ford was the only domestic manufacturer with top-selling models in the "clunkers" program. (Note, Ford, didn't get a bailout)

Transportation Department figures on the "clunkers" incentive, which offered consumers up to $4,500 when they traded in their older vehicles for more fuel efficient new models, showed on Wednesday that total sales amounted to just under 700,000 with $2.87 billion in rebates.

All sales were to have been completed by 8 p.m. EDT on Monday. Dealers had until Tuesday evening to submit paperwork on transactions. The deadline had been extended one day due to problems with the online network set up by the government to process rebate applications.

According to the figures, Toyota's "clunkers" market share was 19.4 percent, compared with its year-to-date U.S. share through July of 17 percent. Honda captured 13 percent of the "clunkers" market compared with 11 percent for the first seven months of the year.

Nissan accounted for nearly 9 percent of "clunkers" sales compared with a January-July share of 7 percent. Hyundai was the biggest winner with a 7 percent share compared with 3 percent for the year through July.

Ford's "clunkers" sales topped 14 percent, compared with a 15 percent share for the year through July. GM reported 17 percent of "clunkers" business compared with 21 percent from January to July. Chrysler's "clunkers" share was 6.6 percent, compared with 11 percent otherwise.

Chrysler halted production for several weeks during its bankruptcy and gradually brought operations back on line. Its offers the industry's most truck-heavy lineup.

"No one had a six-month supply of cars on the ground," said Jeremy Anwyl, chief executive of Edmonds.com, a consumer resource for sales and other information about the industry. "The inventory situation for Chrysler was more extreme than for others."

Anwyl said consumer preferences for more efficiency at lower prices were influenced by recession and the four-week "clunkers" program and it remains to be seen whether all of the gains made by overseas manufacturers will translate into loyal customers

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Autos/idUSTRE57P5C220090826

revefsreleets
08-27-2009, 08:34 AM
I've seen estimated that this "moved" as many as 700,000 cars...HOWEVER, in 2008 (a record bad year for new cars sales), the US averaged like 38,000 cars sold a day. Cash for clunkers averaged (according the generous number above) only about 12,500 a day.

I'm just not sure this really did much of anything for anybody accept give some people a little extra gift from the government that we'll all have to pay back eventually in the inevitable huge tax increases we will see someday very soon.

Dino 6 Rings
08-27-2009, 08:36 AM
Dont forget, its not like the cars they bought actually cost 2500 or 4500 bucks. They went into deeper debt instead of actually being smart with money, that doesn't help the economy, deeper debt.

steelwalls
08-27-2009, 08:38 AM
Obama has saved us all... Thank god for the media kissing his a$$ he has managed to save ) all our problems what a change this is... Im soo glad he has managed to save us all from doom....

Nov. 1. Early predictions had the initial funding of $1 billion running out by Labor Day, but by the end of the first week, dealer organizations were warning the White House that the money was nearly gone.e ZERO of our problems...

revefsreleets
08-27-2009, 08:40 AM
Correct...I stopped buying brand new cars a few years back, and now buy "near new" (let someone else eat that massive initial depreciation). Anyone who's ever listened to financial advice from Dave Ramsey will know what he says about it: "You should not EVER buy a new car unless you have one million dollars in the bank".

X-Terminator
08-27-2009, 08:40 AM
Can't say I'm surprised. But don't blame Toyota, Hyundai, Honda and Nissan...blame U.S. car manufacturers for putting out trash for years while the aforementioned companies have been putting out very good cars. If I'd have been able to take advantage of the program - and could AFFORD the car - I'd have bought a Subaru. One of the best cars on the market.

My initial thought still stands though. This program was just an incentive for people to put themselves deeper into debt. I would not have much of a problem with it on its surface if it was primarily going to be used by responsible people who can truly afford to buy a new car, but needed a leg up. But it isn't. In a year, we'll be reading about banks repossessing many of these cars.

steelwalls
08-27-2009, 08:42 AM
By the way lets send stimulus money to inmates serving time??? Good job pres....

revefsreleets
08-27-2009, 08:49 AM
By the way lets send stimulus money to inmates serving time??? Good job pres....

Yeah, saw that...3,900 $250 checks to inmates. Nice...

Anyway, as a follow-up concerning local dealers, the Cleveland Auto Dealers Association released something about local dealers being owed between $45,000 and 3 million per dealership in clunkers money from the government, and how, at this point, it's basically become a loan. Also, to date, less than 5% of these "CARS" loans have been paid by the government. Here's a quote from the Pres of the GCADA:

Basically, dealerships have fronted this money to the federal government in what amounts to an interest-free loan, even though the dealerships must continue to pay interest on that money from their lending sources.