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View Full Version : Referendum vs Represented


7SteelGal43
08-09-2009, 11:04 PM
We elect our officials, from the president on down, then send them off to their respective offices to represent our interests. They introduce bills, amendments, etc, vote on them, then the President signs off on it or vetos it. A lot of times, we don't know half of what these bills actually contain. I do believe with all my heart, some of the most vital legislation passed or stopped in my lifetime has been done so with more "input" from special interests than the people. And why is it that some issues get tossed back to the individual states (same sex marriage) and some the federal government grabs the reins and runs with it (healthcare, abortion).

I'd like to know how you all feel about possibly having national referendums on these peices of legislation when it is something of such signifigance and will last for generations to come. I mean after all, These people are sent to office by a "majority rule", shouldn't the legislation they pass reflect that ?

Vincent
08-10-2009, 08:15 AM
I'd like to know how you all feel about possibly having national referendums on these peices of legislation when it is something of such signifigance and will last for generations to come. I mean after all, These people are sent to office by a "majority rule", shouldn't the legislation they pass reflect that ?

This is similar in concept to what Stlrtruck proposed in "We the People". The spirit of the idea is good - as long as the outcome goes your way. Again, the problem would become the abuse by the acorns of the world that abuse such things. The framers correctly foresaw the abuse and fraud that could ensue from direct democracy.

I think the problem is that we, the electorate, don't hold our representatives accountable. That was acutely evidenced in 2008 by the electorate sending a congress with historically low approval ratings back for another term.

Representatives, regardless of what they run on, are beholden to their party, and the party's established hierarchy. That is why a party can be hijacked by radicals and operate so clearly outside the wishes of the electorate.

Back to your point, the framers intended that representatives be citizens that stepped up to serve their brethren for a period of time, then return to their ordinary lives as another citizen stepped up. Big parties corrupted that, so now what we have are apparatchiks rather than representatives.

IMHO, now is a good time for a party of strict constitutionalists to emerge and take matters in hand.

revefsreleets
08-10-2009, 08:34 AM
This monster is out of control and cannot ever be tamed...the genie can never be put back in the bottle.

You are absolutely right about the framers intentions, though: Congress and Senate was to be comprised of a representation of THE PEOPLE, not lawyers who represent special interests, lobbies and PACS. If you buck the system (like a Jim Trafficant), they'll either discredit you or lock you away or both.

7SteelGal43
08-10-2009, 09:38 AM
Now see...that's exactly why I put it out there. You guys have raised excellent points. Way to make me think. :thumbsup: If we did away with the electoral college AND had more referendums, can you imagine the voter intimidation that would take place at the polls ?

"Representavie democracy" and "majority rule" have been hijacked.

Indo
08-10-2009, 10:31 AM
SteelGal,

You (and EVERYONE else on this forum) should read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/5000-Year-Leap-Miracle-Changed/dp/0880801484/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249917503&sr=8-1

It was written LONG before Bush or Obama

The author basically breaks down, in very easy to read terms, The Miracle (as he calls it) brought about by the Ideas and Ideals of the Founding Fathers...very simple stuff---Life, Liberty , and the Pursuit of Happiness----and how these Ideas that were built into the Framework of the Constitution advanced civilization as we know it---made a 5000-year Leap. Think about it..."Civilization" began somewhere between 5000-7000 years ago, and not much happened. Still no electricity, running water, etc. until the Founding Fathers got together and outlined their ideas in what became the Constitution...then...
An Idea that LIfe CAN be better---exchange of Ideas and Knowledge and Invention and...----all within the last 200 years. It ALL happened when Government GOT OUT OF THE WAY. Freedom to Pursue Happiness. Freedom to Try. Freedom to Succeed. AND FREEDOM TO FAIL.

(I still can't figure out why people are so willing to give up those freedoms to the government. It is comprised of people just like you and me. Why are some people CONVINCED that those people know how to run our lives better that we know how to run our own?)

READ THE BOOK

7SteelGal43
08-10-2009, 10:52 AM
SteelGal,

You (and EVERYONE else on this forum) should read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/5000-Year-Leap-Miracle-Changed/dp/0880801484/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249917503&sr=8-1

It was written LONG before Bush or Obama

The author basically breaks down, in very easy to read terms, The Miracle (as he calls it) brought about by the Ideas and Ideals of the Founding Fathers...very simple stuff---Life, Liberty , and the Pursuit of Happiness----and how these Ideas that were built into the Framework of the Constitution advanced civilization as we know it---made a 5000-year Leap. Think about it..."Civilization" began somewhere between 5000-7000 years ago, and not much happened. Still no electricity, running water, etc. until the Founding Fathers got together and outlined their ideas in what became the Constitution...then...
An Idea that LIfe CAN be better---exchange of Ideas and Knowledge and Invention and...----all within the last 200 years. It ALL happened when Government GOT OUT OF THE WAY. Freedom to Pursue Happiness. Freedom to Try. Freedom to Succeed. AND FREEDOM TO FAIL.

(I still can't figure out why people are so willing to give up those freedoms to the government. It is comprised of people just like you and me. Why are some people CONVINCED that those people know how to run our lives better that we know how to run our own?)

READ THE BOOK

Excellent Excellent points Indo. We forged a Declaration of Independence, The Constituion, and the greatest, freeist, most prosperous nation ever seen was born. And it was good. And it continued to get better. and better. Then, we got this idea that we shouldn't even have to take responsibility or have to work towards having that great life that the founding fathers ensured they would promote rather than hinder. It was simply owed to us.