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Venom
08-20-2009, 01:03 PM
Due to its his contract year , ,how many rushing yards do you see Willy getting this year ?? 1,700 ? 1,800 ? I do see a monster year from him !!!

Youngstown Steeler
08-20-2009, 01:20 PM
1300 if he stays healthy. We actually have depth at RB this year.

Nadroj 20
08-20-2009, 01:28 PM
Idk about 1,800 yards i think that would be a pretty amazing comeback...with other backs like moore and mendenhall taking some carries from him i can see him at 1,200-1,300 if he is healthy and i would be happy with that production.

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-20-2009, 01:42 PM
I am going by age and trends...I just don't see a 29 year old RB getting healthier or better.

800 yds, 4 TDs- About what he did last year.

Let the flaming commence....

00Ravens
08-20-2009, 02:07 PM
Mendenhall will steal a lot of his carries. I expect his production to drop significantly this year. 800 yards at most.

.24lockdown
08-20-2009, 02:14 PM
i think we all knew ufn was bound to post here lol

Steelerfreak58
08-20-2009, 02:17 PM
Willie will get what the offensive line gives him. If the O-Line has it together he has a monster season (barring injury) if the O-Line struggles well you know what happens...

scsteeler
08-20-2009, 02:20 PM
If Willie is able to stay Healthy I see him getting around 1500+ yards. Mendy may be a factor but that remains to be seen. I like Mendy and hope he does well but I have not seen him produce enough to say that he will be the feature back this year.

The_WARDen
08-20-2009, 02:27 PM
I think he's hit that "wall" that RBs hit...he's injured all the time now.

I say it's more like 500 yards.

PalmerSteel
08-20-2009, 02:36 PM
willie will want 300+ carries for 1500 yards to audition for his last big money contract but what willie wants and what willie gets this year wont match up.
barring injuries of course:
220 carries = 850 yards

he will have a nice load in the playoff run though, and fortunately will lead us to ring #7 but also unfortunately this will lead him to a huge payday from another team next year :thumbsup:

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-20-2009, 02:37 PM
If Willie is able to stay Healthy I see him getting around 1500+ yards. Mendy may be a factor but that remains to be seen. I like Mendy and hope he does well but I have not seen him produce enough to say that he will be the feature back this year. How many 29+ year old RBs in the history of the NFL have had 1500+ yards?

Priest Holmes, Tiki Barber, John Riggins, Walter Payton, Curtis Martin and Barry Sanders.

End of list.

Here's some other 29 year old RB totals

Ladanian Tomlinson 1110 yds
Eric Dickerson 1311 yds
Brian Westbrook 1338 (rushing+receiving)
Emmitt Smith 1332
Marshall Faulk 953
Shaun Alexander 896

SteelMember
08-20-2009, 02:37 PM
ok. before the "debate" begins I'll say...

1200

revefsreleets
08-20-2009, 02:46 PM
Parker is about as fresh of a 29 year old as you'll find. UFN argument: neutralized as irrelevant.

What IS relevant is the fact that Mendenhall, despite the claims that he lacks explosion and "wide base bleep blop bloop" IS going to steal 1 and 2 down carries, and Moore IS the 3rd down back, so I can't see (barring injury) any back on this team getting more than 200 carries, so no back is going to gain any more than maybe 800 yards.

And I say that in a good way...

mmalone
08-20-2009, 02:50 PM
sign him... win the SB .... then trade him... then get some high round picks for him...

or

he will be gone for no gain to us next year..
just another joey porter coming up.

really what are his options?? tough call.

steelreserve
08-20-2009, 02:51 PM
If they keep using the Parker-only rushing attack, I see him breaking 1,500 yards easy. Not because it's a contract year and not because he's had a resurgence, but because we play 10 games against teams with bottom-feeder defenses. Moore or Mendenhall could probably get 1,500 yards too. It's going to be a good year for somebody.

Psyychoward86
08-20-2009, 02:56 PM
I think he'll barely go over 1,000. I havent loss respect for him yet, i think he's still the feature back.

SteelMember
08-20-2009, 02:59 PM
Parker is about as fresh of a 29 year old as you'll find. UFN argument: neutralized as irrelevant.

What IS relevant is the fact that Mendenhall, despite the claims that he lacks explosion and "wide base bleep blop bloop" IS going to steal 1 and 2 down carries, and Moore IS the 3rd down back, so I can't see (barring injury) any back on this team getting more than 200 carries, so no back is going to gain any more than maybe 800 yards.

And I say that in a good way...

Is that total with, or without the "long runs"? :chuckle:

revefsreleets
08-20-2009, 03:19 PM
Is that total with, or without the "long runs"? :chuckle:

I forgot about that...longs runs don't "count".:flap:

I think Parker gets 180-220 carries
Mendy gets about 150-170 carries
Moore picks up the rest (and that's where this gets tricky...how much DO we run next year?) Maybe 50? 80?

I can't see us rushing the ball more than 450 times...so say 220, 150, 50 and the rest spread between the other backs? Something like that?

hindes204
08-20-2009, 03:41 PM
I say he at least breaks 1,000. I dont think he will hit 1,500 like some of you said, but 800 seems a bit low.

1,086................give or take a yard ot two

revefsreleets
08-20-2009, 03:52 PM
Bear in mind that in his best year average-wise (not counting 2004, because he was a situational back and benefited greatly from that, ala Moore last year and Dookie, Fu, etc, etc...), he averaged 4.7 a carry (2005).

To reach 1500 yards this year at THAT average (and he only averaged 3.8 last year), he'd have to get 320 carries. There is no WAY that's gonna happen.

AllD
08-20-2009, 04:18 PM
500-750 yards tops, more if he could catch, but he cannot.

.24lockdown
08-20-2009, 04:23 PM
How many 29+ year old RBs in the history of the NFL have had 1500+ yards?

Priest Holmes, Tiki Barber, John Riggins, Walter Payton, Curtis Martin and Barry Sanders.

End of list.

Here's some other 29 year old RB totals

Ladanian Tomlinson 1110 yds
Eric Dickerson 1311 yds
Brian Westbrook 1338 (rushing+receiving)
Emmitt Smith 1332
Marshall Faulk 953
Shaun Alexander 896

but every rb on that list u provided took the entire loads basically their entire career, willie has not.

revefsreleets
08-20-2009, 04:32 PM
Parker also only had 32 carries in 2004. I think he had less than 250 carries his entire college career.

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-20-2009, 04:33 PM
but every rb on that list u provided took the entire loads basically their entire career, willie has not. That's fine, but like I said, anyone who has turned 30 years old realizes that the body starts to decline seriously at that age.

I have played a lot of pickup basketball over the years and was barely able to continue doing that well as I hit 28-29-30 years old.

This is an NFL RB who has 1100 carries over the past 4 years. The odds are heavily against him having a career upswing.

.24lockdown
08-20-2009, 04:38 PM
well said and true for the most part. i never said he wouldnt get little production, but i just dont see willie hitting that wall so quickly, he's only been the main starter for about 4 years. Another thing tho, with memo coming in on 3rd downs, and if mendy comes in late in games to pound it, and with hopeful redzone redman, i dont see him gettin big numbers. Maybe a better average with a balanced running attack, but we're stacked at rb right now imo

revefsreleets
08-20-2009, 04:39 PM
That's fine, but like I said, anyone who has turned 30 years old realizes that the body starts to decline seriously at that age.

I have played a lot of pickup basketball over the years and was barely able to continue doing that well as I hit 28-29-30 years old.

This is an NFL RB who has 1100 carries over the past 4 years. The odds are heavily against him having a career upswing.

But, instead of him coming in with several thousand carries, he had less than 300 from 2000-2005.

His body has not taken the beating that most NFL RB's have. If he's injury prone, it will NOT be because he's taken a beating over the years. I don't believe he is...but Mendenhall will prove to be insurance against that anyway...

tony hipchest
08-20-2009, 04:41 PM
fast willie will have atleast 7 carries of 40 yds or longer (5 go for td's) and tie adrian peterson for the lead league in that category.

none of these runs will happen in the vikings/steelers match-up though.

Preacher
08-20-2009, 04:41 PM
That's fine, but like I said, anyone who has turned 30 years old realizes that the body starts to decline seriously at that age.

I have played a lot of pickup basketball over the years and was barely able to continue doing that well as I hit 28-29-30 years old.

This is an NFL RB who has 1100 carries over the past 4 years. The odds are heavily against him having a career upswing.

I understand what you are saying, and thank you for not trying to use stats to state absolutes. Instead using them to say, "this is my opinion."

I disagree because I think conditioning and overall effect of a career is part of the reasons RB's don't suceed past 30. Same as LB's, but Harrison and Farrior both prove that point is not always valid.

.24lockdown
08-20-2009, 04:44 PM
I understand what you are saying, and thank you for not trying to use stats to state absolutes. Instead using them to say, "this is my opinion."

I disagree because I think conditioning and overall effect of a career is part of the reasons RB's don't suceed past 30. Same as LB's, but Harrison and Farrior both prove that point is not always valid.

LOL this looks so much better than my crappy wallotext haha

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-20-2009, 04:48 PM
fast willie will have atleast 7 carries of 40 yds or longer (5 go for td's) and tie adrian peterson for the lead league in that category.

none of these runs will happen in the vikings/steelers match-up though. C'mon man. He has 7 runs of 40+ in his career and hasn't had one since 2006.

That's not happening.

steelreserve
08-20-2009, 04:53 PM
I understand what you are saying, and thank you for not trying to use stats to state absolutes. Instead using them to say, "this is my opinion."

I disagree because I think conditioning and overall effect of a career is part of the reasons RB's don't suceed past 30. Same as LB's, but Harrison and Farrior both prove that point is not always valid.

I've got to say, I think the wear and tear of football is the main reason why NFL RBs drop off at that age. I just turned 32, and no joke, I'm just as fast as I was at 21, definitely stronger, and am certain that I can still dunk a basketball if I ever got off my ass and got in decent shape. Maybe I'm on the lucky side, but I have to think that pro athletes' bodies would hold up even better than that if it weren't for the beating they took.

That's one thing Parker MIGHT have going for him -- he had a pretty light workload in college and all the way up until he was 24 or 25 years old. Maybe that buys him an extra season or two. But given his injury history of late, maybe that all got wiped out anyway.

revefsreleets
08-20-2009, 04:54 PM
That's a ballsy prediction, but it DOES have some merit.

Why?

Depth of RB. We aren't "Thunder and Lightning" this year, more like a 3-headed hydra. Each of the 3 has their attributes and I'm willing to bet that any of the 3 could show up in any formation on any down at any time. Parker will be fresh every time he touches the ball. All he needs is a hole and he IS still a VERY fast RB.

Add in the fact that we should be a very balanced attack this year, and Arians has another year to work with Ben, not to mention an almost inevitable upgrade in line play, and there is no reason to think that we can't just ABUSE some teams this year.

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-20-2009, 04:56 PM
I understand what you are saying, and thank you for not trying to use stats to state absolutes. Instead using them to say, "this is my opinion."

I disagree because I think conditioning and overall effect of a career is part of the reasons RB's don't suceed past 30. Same as LB's, but Harrison and Farrior both prove that point is not always valid. Well, I am using stats to inform myself about what will or won't happen this upcoming season and come to a conclusion about it.

As for what has happened in the past, facts are absolute. What did happen, factually speaking, isn't an opinion. However, I appreciate your sentiment.

As for whether we are looking at what will happen this coming season or what has happened in the past, the variety of reasons listed why 29 year old FWP isn't like almost every other 29 year old RB continues to show me that FWP the legend is much bigger/better than FWP the football player.

To follow up on that, you think almost every RB in NFL history that hit 29/30 just wasn't well-conditioned? And its just a coincidence that the small handful that produced into 30-31 years old are all sure-fire Hall of Famers?

LBs, or any other position for that matter, do not apply here. RBs are known to take the most hits and have the shortest shelf life.

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-20-2009, 05:03 PM
That's a ballsy prediction, but it DOES have some merit.

Why?

Depth of RB. We aren't "Thunder and Lightning" this year, more like a 3-headed hydra. Each of the 3 has their attributes and I'm willing to bet that any of the 3 could show up in any formation on any down at any time. Parker will be fresh every time he touches the ball. All he needs is a hole and he IS still a VERY fast RB.

Add in the fact that we should be a very balanced attack this year, and Arians has another year to work with Ben, not to mention an almost inevitable upgrade in line play, and there is no reason to think that we can't just ABUSE some teams this year.

Ironically, I am now of the opinion that the Steelers are paper thin at RB. That's why the Mendenhall development (or lack thereof) is so important.

Mendenhall looks like an average at best NFL running back, and if I am right about FWP's age/decline being imminent, then I won't be surprised when Moore ends up leading the Steelers RBs again.

Dino 6 Rings
08-20-2009, 05:05 PM
So Parker turns 29 this November, which means he's still under the "30" wall for at least one more season. Sweet. Hope he has a Great Season and gets one more of those Plus 40 yard TDs. That would be fantastic....lets see who we play...

Vs Titans, Not so good running day
@ Bears, I fear not the Bears, We Run on them
@Bengals 100plus day
vs Chargers, not so good running day
@Lions, 100 yards by Halftime
vs Browns 100 yard day
vs Vikings, not so much running
@Broncos 200 yards plus Rushing for the entire RB Group.
vs Bengals 100 yard day
@ Chiefs, 100 yard day
@ Ravens (no one runs on the Ravens)
vs Raiders 100 yard day
vs Packers, we'll see how that 4-3 is by then, could be 100 yard day, not sure yet
vs Ravens...nope
@Dolphins, Possible but we may not need the game and it may be Moore getting the start while Willie rests for the playoff push...

I like this schedule a thousand times better than last years for Parker.

revefsreleets
08-20-2009, 05:07 PM
You just can't back down can you?

I appreciate that you've had a modicum of success in several non-football related endeavors, but that does NOT mean that you are always right even when you are wrong just because you argue with great tenacity.

When you are wrong and fail, you are wrong, and you have failed.

Moore, despite your best efforts at convincing us, is nothing more than a 3rd down/situational/replacement back. Of course the Viking and Steelers staff already know this, which makes your arguments all the more absurd, but why not humor you?

Willie Parker has had a good deal of success in the NFL so far despite your efforts minimize it. He's been an all-Pro. He was in the running for a rushing title until he was injured. He was a 3rd string back-up at a second-tier football school which probably stings a little because Moore was a big-time stud at a second tier football school, but NONE of this changes the facts as they remain to this day.

And now I see that you are saying the Steelers are THIN at RB. How can that be when their "best back", according to you, is a 3rd stringer?

It's really time for you to just let this go, guy...

Dino 6 Rings
08-20-2009, 05:08 PM
then I won't be surprised when Moore ends up leading the Steelers RBs again.

what are you actually talking about here? Again

Parker 791 yards
Moore 588 yards

Moore didn't "Lead" anything.

revefsreleets
08-20-2009, 05:13 PM
what are you actually talking about here? Again

Parker 791 yards
Moore 588 yards

Moore didn't "Lead" anything.
Au contraire, mon frere...according to UFN, the Steelers reached their productive Zenith with Moore as the primary back...

mmalone
08-20-2009, 05:22 PM
Au contraire, mon frere...according to UFN, the Steelers reached their productive Zenith with Moore as the primary back...

UFN may be stating the average yards per att...

Rushing
Player Team Yds Att Yds/Att TD's Fumb

1. Willie Parker PITTSBURGH 789 209 3.8 5 0
2. Mewelde Moore PITTSBURGH 589 140 4.2 5

4.2 moore vs 3.8 parker.....

:wave:

one side only
08-20-2009, 05:24 PM
You just can't back down can you?

I appreciate that you've had a modicum of success in several non-football related endeavors, but that does NOT mean that you are always right even when you are wrong just because you argue with great tenacity.

When you are wrong and fail, you are wrong, and you have failed.

Moore, despite your best efforts at convincing us, is nothing more than a 3rd down/situational/replacement back. Of course the Viking and Steelers staff already know this, which makes your arguments all the more absurd, but why not humor you?

Willie Parker has had a good deal of success in the NFL so far despite your efforts minimize it. He's been an all-Pro. He was in the running for a rushing title until he was injured. He was a 3rd string back-up at a second-tier football school which probably stings a little because Moore was a big-time stud at a second tier football school, but NONE of this changes the facts as they remain to this day.

And now I see that you are saying the Steelers are THIN at RB. How can that be when their "best back", according to you, is a 3rd stringer?

It's really time for you to just let this go, guy...

Boy, you are an easy target.

In an earlier post, you say something about a hydra and you're willing to bet anyone of the Steeler running backs will show up in any formation, in any down and distance situation. Now, MM is only a "3rd down/situational/replacement back."

Which is it?

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-20-2009, 05:25 PM
You just can't back down can you?

I appreciate that you've had a modicum of success in several non-football related endeavors, but that does NOT mean that you are always right even when you are wrong just because you argue with great tenacity.

When you are wrong and fail, you are wrong, and you have failed.

Moore, despite your best efforts at convincing us, is nothing more than a 3rd down/situational/replacement back. Of course the Viking and Steelers staff already know this, which makes your arguments all the more absurd, but why not humor you?

Willie Parker has had a good deal of success in the NFL so far despite your efforts minimize it. He's been an all-Pro. He was in the running for a rushing title until he was injured. He was a 3rd string back-up at a second-tier football school which probably stings a little because Moore was a big-time stud at a second tier football school, but NONE of this changes the facts as they remain to this day.

And now I see that you are saying the Steelers are THIN at RB. How can that be when their "best back", according to you, is a 3rd stringer?

It's really time for you to just let this go, guy... I don't know what I have "failed" at. I haven't minimized anything in regards to Willie Parker's career.

To put it in context, Willie Parker is right behind Willis Magahee and Michael Pittman on the active rushing list, and Magahee is 1 year younger than FWP. He has 900 more career rushing yards than Chester Taylor, who has only started 32 NFL games in his career. So I give FWP all the respect that the guy who is the 18th leading active rusher deserves. Remember, Magahee isn't even starting in Baltimore.

And acknowledging that FWP might be slowing down (as the 4 year trend of consistently declining YPC and increasing # of injuries supports) isn't anything other than a sober assessment when looking at a 29 year old RB.

And as far as FACTS, I have only said "more productive", I didn't say anything about "best" and never have.

If FWP misses time due to injury, then all you have left is Mendenhall and Moore, and from what I can see, Mendenhall isn't very good. That would leave the team thin at the position. That's all I said.

In 2008, Moore had more yards, 1st downs, and TDs than any other RB on the Steelers roster, and all I said was that I wouldn't be surprised if that happens again in 2009.

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-20-2009, 05:28 PM
UFN may be stating the average yards per att...

Rushing
Player Team Yds Att Yds/Att TD's Fumb

1. Willie Parker PITTSBURGH 789 209 3.8 5 0
2. Mewelde Moore PITTSBURGH 589 140 4.2 5

4.2 moore vs 3.8 parker.....

:wave: Nah. I went through this last season. The Steelers in 08 scored much more frequently with Moore in the lineup.

Again, not an opinion.

mmalone
08-20-2009, 05:33 PM
Nah. I went through this last season. The Steelers in 08 scored much more frequently with Moore in the lineup.

Again, not an opinion.

they do play with a more Play Action feel when moore was in the whole game...
you do notice a bit more flare in their attack.

ill buy that..

even dixon seemed to bring that style out a bit more last week.

steelreserve
08-20-2009, 05:36 PM
Depth of RB. We aren't "Thunder and Lightning" this year, more like a 3-headed hydra. Each of the 3 has their attributes and I'm willing to bet that any of the 3 could show up in any formation on any down at any time.

That would be ideal, and would probably stop me from bitching about Parker. But I think it's a bit optimistic, given that we've been so incredibly stubborn about sticking with him as the only option in the past. I'm fully expecting Parker-only until he gets injured.

Well, no matter. This year, whoever gets the ball, including Parker, ought to have a big game.

revefsreleets
08-20-2009, 05:39 PM
I don't know what I have "failed" at. I haven't minimized anything in regards to Willie Parker's career.

To put it in context, Willie Parker is right behind Willis Magahee and Michael Pittman on the active rushing list, and Magahee is 1 year younger than FWP. He has 900 more career rushing yards than Chester Taylor, who has only started 32 NFL games in his career. So I give FWP all the respect that the guy who is the 18th leading active rusher deserves. Remember, Magahee isn't even starting in Baltimore.

And acknowledging that FWP might be slowing down (as the 4 year trend of consistently declining YPC and increasing # of injuries supports) isn't anything other than a sober assessment when looking at a 29 year old RB.

And as far as FACTS, I have only said "more productive", I didn't say anything about "best" and never have.

If FWP misses time due to injury, then all you have left is Mendenhall and Moore, and from what I can see, Mendenhall isn't very good. That would leave the team thin at the position. That's all I said.

In 2008, Moore had more yards, 1st downs, and TDs than any other RB on the Steelers roster, and all I said was that I wouldn't be surprised if that happens again in 2009.

Your pro-Moore/anti Willie agenda hasn't faded in MY memory...you can backpeddle all you like, but it's still there...

HometownGal
08-20-2009, 05:42 PM
1,150 yards rushing and 280 receiving yards for a grand total of 1,430 all purpose yards. A lot is going to depend on whether FWP can stay healthy and how well the OL can block for him. :hope:

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-20-2009, 06:05 PM
they do play with a more Play Action feel when moore was in the whole game...
you do notice a bit more flare in their attack.

ill buy that..

even dixon seemed to bring that style out a bit more last week. Not to start this again, but I'll give the quick version

2008 touches/yards/ yds/touch/ 1st downs/plays of 20+ yds/TDs

Willie Parker 213 touches, 804 yds, 3.77 yds/touch, 29 1st downs, 4 plays 20+, 5 TDs
Mewelde Moore 180 touches, 908 yds, 5.04 yds/touch, 53 1st downs, 7 plays 20+, 6 TDs

Not to mention the success of the no-huddle package, which had Moore in the backfield.

Not hard to do the math from there.

SteelersTilIDie
08-20-2009, 06:41 PM
1100 cause we have a bunch of backs that will help shoulder the load

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-21-2009, 03:36 AM
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09233/992297-66.stm

Wow. This article makes it pretty difficult to understand the love for this guy. Parker's tone in these comments toward Mendenhall and Moore is absurd and selfish. He goes out of his way to not give any credit to his teammates and gives the impression that he accepts being forced to "tolerate" some competition.

If this were a 1-time thing, I wouldn't read too much into it, but after Parker complaining about splitting carries last season and then taking credit for the SB GW drive in an interview this sure seems like an ugly habit.

Aussie_steeler
08-21-2009, 04:34 AM
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09233/992297-66.stm

Wow. This article makes it pretty difficult to understand the love for this guy. Parker's tone in these comments toward Mendenhall and Moore is absurd and selfish. He goes out of his way to not give any credit to his teammates and gives the impression that he accepts being forced to "tolerate" some competition.
If this were a 1-time thing, I wouldn't read too much into it, but after Parker complaining about splitting carries last season and then taking credit for the SB GW drive in an interview this sure seems like an ugly habit.


Read the article again. The quote below sure as hell sounds like some cred is being given to Rashard by FWP

"He's more comfortable," Parker said. "He's more patient this year. This time from last year, you can tell a big difference. He has something on his mind this year. He's definitely working very hard. I see him in the weight room every day, so he's ready for the season."
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09233/992297-66.stm#ixzz0Oo9vB8KT



I love the creative licence you take. I certainly see absurd and selfish, just not in FWP's comments in that article.


Steelernation loves FWP for the contributions he has made to the team in his time on the roster. I understand the love, if you dont ..... so be it.

Fire Haley
08-21-2009, 04:58 AM
Tomlin to Willie - "Put it on tape"



That is all.

revefsreleets
08-21-2009, 12:40 PM
Not to start this again, but I'll give the quick version

2008 touches/yards/ yds/touch/ 1st downs/plays of 20+ yds/TDs

Willie Parker 213 touches, 804 yds, 3.77 yds/touch, 29 1st downs, 4 plays 20+, 5 TDs
Mewelde Moore 180 touches, 908 yds, 5.04 yds/touch, 53 1st downs, 7 plays 20+, 6 TDs

Not to mention the success of the no-huddle package, which had Moore in the backfield.

Not hard to do the math from there.

I'd say if Moore had the SAME touches that Willie got, in the same situations, against the same defenses, his stats would be WORSE than Willie's. And vice-versa...If Willie got to look at wide open defenses, run draw plays on 3rd and long, catch passes in the flat against spread out D's, and run out of no-huddle offenses catching fat 330 DL's standing flat footed, HIS stats would overshadow Moore's. Why? Simple...because he's a better RB.

We aren't Skins fans. Nobody here went to Tulane. Nobody here has an agenda...we ARE being unbiased fans when we formulate our opinions. Not a SINGLE poster on this board buys what you're selling...

steelreserve
08-21-2009, 01:02 PM
I'd say if Moore had the SAME touches that Willie got, in the same situations, against the same defenses, his stats would be WORSE than Willie's. And vice-versa...If Willie got to look at wide open defenses, run draw plays on 3rd and long, catch passes in the flat against spread out D's, and run out of no-huddle offenses catching fat 330 DL's standing flat footed, HIS stats would overshadow Moore's. Why? Simple...because he's a better RB.

If Parker would do so much better in those situations, why aren't we using him that way NOW?

Oh, that's right -- because that's not what he's good at. Coulda shoulda woulda.

I'm actually thinking a lot of Moore's success comes because his versatility keeps the defense guessing. If he burns you a couple times catching passes out of the backfield, you're not going to pile it on so heavy against the run every time, like you would for Parker Up The Middle.

mmalone
08-21-2009, 01:06 PM
If Parker would do so much better in those situations, why aren't we using him that way NOW?

Oh, that's right -- because that's not what he's good at. Coulda shoulda woulda.

I'm actually thinking a lot of Moore's success comes because his versatility keeps the defense guessing. If he burns you a couple times catching passes out of the backfield, you're not going to pile it on so heavy against the run every time, like you would for Parker Up The Middle.

you mean options that make defenses hesitate... play action, play fakes.... counter blitz plays.... thats where moore fits in..... he has the soft hands and speed.

keep the pressure off the line a bit more. keep ben standing....:tt:

:tt03::tt03::tt03::tt03::tt03::tt03:

The_WARDen
08-21-2009, 01:13 PM
round and round and round we go...

:popcorn:

steelreserve
08-21-2009, 01:21 PM
round and round and round we go...

:popcorn:

Wait, so this has been brought up before? I'm shocked -- SHOCKED to find out this isn't the first time we've talked about it.






guess that's what happens when there's an unwinnable argument for both sides. it sure is fun to bark at people, though.

fansince'76
08-21-2009, 01:29 PM
round and round and round we go...

:popcorn:

Yep, I think I took a wrong turn on Redundancy Boulevard....

mmalone
08-21-2009, 02:15 PM
Wait, so this has been brought up before? I'm shocked -- SHOCKED to find out this isn't the first time we've talked about it.

guess that's what happens when there's an unwinnable argument for both sides. it sure is fun to bark at people, though.

i try to actually talk about this play deception concept all the time... no one wants to...
its either arians bashing or we won the SB mentality..

did any of you watch peyton last night?? his two drives.. he had more play deception in two drives then we produce in a half season...

they drove the ball 12 yards at a time in a very smooth fashion.. i dont think he was sacked.

no gasping for air on every play.. and squinting to see if ben gets up......
no 3rd and 15's

it pisses me off to watch peyton and brady do it so often.

i just want us to do this and keep ben standing all the time.... thats my only problem.
because eventually the guy we love is going to get broken....

i guess brady got beat up last night though. cincis D is getting tougher???




.

revefsreleets
08-21-2009, 02:23 PM
Go back and look at Fu's stats. Eric Pegram's stats. Fred McAfee's stats. Dookie's stats. Richard Huntley. Amos Zereoue. They ALL have one thing in common...they were 3rd down/situational backs, and they almost without exception had really nice yards per touch stats. It's the kinds of looks they get against the defenses they faced based on favorable situational match-ups. Nobody in their right mind would consider using these guys all season as every day backs.

To say "Well, if Parker is so much better why not use him that way?" is to NOT have 3rd down situational backs or run RB by committee. Almost every team in the league has both now. There are 1 and 2 down backs, and there are 3rd down backs, and there are a handful of guys that can do it all (but those guys are too valuable to risk to 400 carries a year). In other words, "why NOT use Parker for all three downs?". Because you'll wear him out. Conversely, "why not let Moore get all the carries on 1-3 down?". Because he's not BUILT to run between the tackles 20 times a game and won't be effective. These guys have specialties and strengths that need to be played to and weaknesses to be factored in.

It's a stupid argument all-around. Things are the way they are for a REASON....I can't understand why every year we have a few posters who simply refuse to acknowledge that...UFN's "statistical analysis" is just the newest polishing of the old turd of an argument. The offense is slightly more effective when Moore is in because it's DESIGNED THAT way! Moore is supposed to be in picking up 10 yards in 3rd and 23 so they get better field position for a punt, and Parker is supposed to be in there banging on 1st and 2nd down picking up 3-4 yards so we have a 3rd and 3 and not a 3rd and 22 and don't NEED the special part-time RB skills of a Mewelde Moore.

ace man 21
08-21-2009, 02:32 PM
800 to 1000 yards

steelreserve
08-21-2009, 03:52 PM
Go back and look at Fu's stats. Eric Pegram's stats. Fred McAfee's stats. Dookie's stats. Richard Huntley. Amos Zereoue. They ALL have one thing in common...they were 3rd down/situational backs, and they almost without exception had really nice yards per touch stats. It's the kinds of looks they get against the defenses they faced based on favorable situational match-ups. Nobody in their right mind would consider using these guys all season as every day backs.

To say "Well, if Parker is so much better why not use him that way?" is to NOT have 3rd down situational backs or run RB by committee. Almost every team in the league has both now. There are 1 and 2 down backs, and there are 3rd down backs, and there are a handful of guys that can do it all (but those guys are too valuable to risk to 400 carries a year). In other words, "why NOT use Parker for all three downs?". Because you'll wear him out. Conversely, "why not let Moore get all the carries on 1-3 down?". Because he's not BUILT to run between the tackles 20 times a game and won't be effective. These guys have specialties and strengths that need to be played to and weaknesses to be factored in.

It's a stupid argument all-around. Things are the way they are for a REASON....I can't understand why every year we have a few posters who simply refuse to acknowledge that...UFN's "statistical analysis" is just the newest polishing of the old turd of an argument. The offense is slightly more effective when Moore is in because it's DESIGNED THAT way! Moore is supposed to be in picking up 10 yards in 3rd and 23 so they get better field position for a punt, and Parker is supposed to be in there banging on 1st and 2nd down picking up 3-4 yards so we have a 3rd and 3 and not a 3rd and 22 and don't NEED the special part-time RB skills of a Mewelde Moore.

Yeah, except Moore wasn't a third-down back last year. He put up those numbers as a regular running back. So that argument goes poof.

Again, I'm not suggesting Moore should be the every-down back, and I never have been. More like we should get him in the game in different situations and mix up our playcalling a little.

Unless Mendenhall turns out to be it, I don't think we even have anyone who fits the description of an every-down back. So we ought to stop acting like we do. Our offense would benefit from that tremendously.

mmalone
08-21-2009, 03:59 PM
If Parker would do so much better in those situations, why aren't we using him that way NOW?

Oh, that's right -- because that's not what he's good at. Coulda shoulda woulda.

I'm actually thinking a lot of Moore's success comes because his versatility keeps the defense guessing. If he burns you a couple times catching passes out of the backfield, you're not going to pile it on so heavy against the run every time, like you would for Parker Up The Middle.

Parkers own words yesterday........

Halfback Mewelde Moore tied for fourth on the team with 40 receptions last season after he became the third-down back after Parker's knee injury.

Parker would like that job back.

"That was my main focus in the offseason, just work on my hands and give me some plays in the open field one on one vs. a linebacker or one on one vs. a cornerback. That's what I wanted to do and that's what we're planning to do this season."

Parker caught only three passes last season, by far his lowest total since he became a starter in 2005.

Why?

"I don't know," Parker answered. "I mean, I guess bad quarterback-running back connection, I don't know."

revefsreleets
08-21-2009, 04:31 PM
Yeah, except Moore wasn't a third-down back last year. He put up those numbers as a regular running back. So that argument goes poof.

Again, I'm not suggesting Moore should be the every-down back, and I never have been. More like we should get him in the game in different situations and mix up our playcalling a little.

Unless Mendenhall turns out to be it, I don't think we even have anyone who fits the description of an every-down back. So we ought to stop acting like we do. Our offense would benefit from that tremendously.

That's simply not true. He is STILL a 3rd down back, he just got some 1 and 2 down back looks due to Parker's injury. It's foolish to think that the Steelers gameplan didn't change in light of who their starting RB was. His skill-set is 3rd down back. That's what he was for the Vikes. That's what he is now. That's his role, his lot in NFL life. And that's how the Steelers utilized him even when he was forced to start.

The facts is, he had a nice game against Jax last year. He was productive against the Patriots and Giants. But his biggest success came against Cinci. That in and of itself is suspect. He ALSO had 40 carries against the Rats and Colts, and he gained a total of 86 yards in those games for an average of a measly 2.15 yards a carry. That's not insignificant because 40 carries represents almost 30% of his total carries.

I have said all along that 1 and 2 down responsibilities this year should be split between Mendy and Parker, with Moore as the primary 3rd down back. That gives us our best option to win.I expect, barring injury, that's exactly what we'll see...

But, please, let's stop with the whole "Let's start Fu/Huntley/McAfee/Zereoue/Moore etc, etc...nonsense...

steelreserve
08-21-2009, 04:57 PM
That's simply not true. He is STILL a 3rd down back, he just got some 1 and 2 down back looks due to Parker's injury. It's foolish to think that the Steelers gameplan didn't change in light of who their starting RB was. His skill-set is 3rd down back. That's what he was for the Vikes. That's what he is now. That's his role, his lot in NFL life. And that's how the Steelers utilized him even when he was forced to start.

The facts is, he had a nice game against Jax last year. He was productive against the Patriots and Giants. But his biggest success came against Cinci. That in and of itself is suspect. He ALSO had 40 carries against the Rats and Colts, and he gained a total of 86 yards in those games for an average of a measly 2.15 yards a carry. That's not insignificant because 40 carries represents almost 30% of his total carries.

I have said all along that 1 and 2 down responsibilities this year should be split between Mendy and Parker, with Moore as the primary 3rd down back. That gives us our best option to win.I expect, barring injury, that's exactly what we'll see...

But, please, let's stop with the whole "Let's start Fu/Huntley/McAfee/Zereoue/Moore etc, etc...nonsense...

I think we're basically talking about the same thing, but different degrees. Yes, Moore is pretty good at what he does, but it's not going to work all the time. Parker is good at what he does, but that's only going to work sometimes as well. I mainly wish that we'd start recognizing that and be flexible enough to adjust. Because it seems like we come into each game with the mindset of "OK, _____ is the Starting Running Back, so we're going to have a rigid gameplan around him and not change it." There's no such thing as a change of pace, going with the hot hand, or replacing a guy who's ineffective that day. That needs to stop, and hopefully with the guys we have this year, it'll be so painfully obvious we'll have no choice.

rich4eagle
08-21-2009, 05:41 PM
These are the Steelers, Willie will get the carries he deserves..........and will come back unless he wants to price himself into free agency

Steeler football....NEVER OVERPAY

revefsreleets
08-21-2009, 05:46 PM
I think we're basically talking about the same thing, but different degrees. Yes, Moore is pretty good at what he does, but it's not going to work all the time. Parker is good at what he does, but that's only going to work sometimes as well. I mainly wish that we'd start recognizing that and be flexible enough to adjust. Because it seems like we come into each game with the mindset of "OK, _____ is the Starting Running Back, so we're going to have a rigid gameplan around him and not change it." There's no such thing as a change of pace, going with the hot hand, or replacing a guy who's ineffective that day. That needs to stop, and hopefully with the guys we have this year, it'll be so painfully obvious we'll have no choice.

The gameplan fails because of the LOWEST common denominator: The O line. That is NOT Arians fault, and he DOES change his gameplan from week to week.

rich4eagle
08-21-2009, 05:56 PM
Oline is a dime a dozen and has been proven over and over.......Steeler management figured that out years ago despite popular opinion

No worry playmakers make plays and the rest respond..........oline as welll

tony hipchest
08-21-2009, 05:58 PM
The gameplan fails because of the LOWEST common denominator: The O line. That is NOT Arians fault, and he DOES change his gameplan from week to week.and if the internet porn king cant coach them up by the end of this season, tomlin will make his first coaching change and fire the old man with 100% support from the rooneys.

grimm was widely respected for being a 3X superbowl champ with HOF candidate credentials. still not sure what zeirlien had done.

granted, our o-line gets bitchslapped every day in practice by the leagues best defense, but that should make them better, not worse. theyve had an entire year to gel. its make or break for coach Z.

revefsreleets
08-21-2009, 06:04 PM
and if the internet porn king cant coach them up by the end of this season, tomlin will make his first coaching change and fire the old man with 100% support from the rooneys.

grimm was widely respected for being a 3X superbowl champ with HOF candidate credentials. still not sure what zeirlien had done.

granted, our o-line gets bitchslapped every day in practice by the leagues best defense, but that should make them better, not worse. theyve had an entire year to gel. its make or break for coach Z.

100% in agreement. The FO knows a thing or two about talent and coaching...Z is the weak link, and the first to go if things go south.

steelreserve
08-21-2009, 06:24 PM
The gameplan fails because of the LOWEST common denominator: The O line. That is NOT Arians fault, and he DOES change his gameplan from week to week.

I'd spread the blame a little differently ... part personnel, part coaching, part playcalling.

On the personnel front, that's probably where we've got the big disagreement. Fine, part is the o-line, but part is the running backs. I don't think you can ignore the fact that even with three Pro Bowlers on the O-Line and a decent OL coach, Parker still had the same shortcomings and the other RBs behind him did nothing to help us compensate. Most of them sucked ass, in fact.

I do agree our O-Line has gone to shit since Grimm departed, and that's been kind of a mystery. I mean, it's not like our guys don't have the physical tools to do well. Maybe you're on to something with that.

I've said many times, I don't think Arians is bad overall, but I've got to disagree with you -- adaptability is sometimes a problem. Mostly within a game was what I was talking about. We go in with one RB in mind, and whether or not that works, we stick with the same plan. It's like no one can figure out "Hmm, it's the middle of the second quarter and Parker has 19 yards on 11 carries. Maybe at halftime I'll make some adjustments because this isn't effective. Maybe try a new scheme or put in some different guys."

But back to the original point, I don't think you can go "Oh well, it's all the O-Line's fault; it doesn't matter what plays we run or who we hand the ball to." That's just throwing up your hands in the air and taking the easy way out.

rich4eagle
08-21-2009, 06:48 PM
reveefeleleets, You just do not get it........Oline is a dime a dozen..........but some have move way beyond the idiotic concept that they are the key to offense..........

anyway keep believing.........that /Ben is a recipient instead of the igniter

tony hipchest
08-21-2009, 07:21 PM
I do agree our O-Line has gone to shit since Grimm departed, and that's been kind of a mystery. I mean, it's not like our guys don't have the physical tools to do well. Maybe you're on to something with that.

.

but its not like arizonas line hasnt sucked balls since grimms arrival. 2 years in and they were the 2nd worst rushing team in the league.

that, alone makes me so thankful we took a flier on tomlin and didnt go with russ as a replacement for cowher.

grimm was successful in pgh. grizzled vets like faneca, smith, hartings, and simmons woulda run through a brick wall for their buddy. he was one of them. but sometimes you can only catch lightning in a bttle once in a career.

its no suprise all of them guys are gone, and no suprise that the new guys grimm coaches are responding about as well to him as our guys are to larry z.

the fact that players like essex, starks, colon, okolbi, ross, and vincent werent further along in their development is proof enough that grimm isnt qualified to be a HC in this league.

he definitely did his job while he was a steeler and brought out the best of our potential HOF LG and others who i feel went above and beyond the call of duty because they related so well with him.

im not sure that translates with the cardinals current line or if the steelers players feel that type of bond with larry z.

chemistry is NOT overrated.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
08-21-2009, 07:52 PM
if he wants 1800 this year he better run behind a different line..... His yards will depend on our O-line.... if our passing game can open up,,,,, he should have a nice year

UltimateFootballNetwork
08-21-2009, 08:18 PM
Yeah, except Moore wasn't a third-down back last year. He put up those numbers as a regular running back. So that argument goes poof.

Again, I'm not suggesting Moore should be the every-down back, and I never have been. More like we should get him in the game in different situations and mix up our playcalling a little.

Unless Mendenhall turns out to be it, I don't think we even have anyone who fits the description of an every-down back. So we ought to stop acting like we do. Our offense would benefit from that tremendously.
This is a great post.

The idea that Moore's numbers are inflated due to being a "3rd down back" is simply not true. Of Moore's 180 touches in 08, he only had 8 carries and 18 receptions on 3rd down, so the overwhelming majority of Moore's touches were not as a 3rd down back. In fact, of Moore's 404 career carries, only 36 have been on 3rd down.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Moore (or anyone on the Steelers roster) should be an "every-down back". There are only 4-5 "every down backs" in the NFL and the Steelers don't have one. I think Moore should be used like a Reggie Bush, who is also not an "every down back" but a versatile back who can run/catch 10-15 a game.

And so, IMO, the blame goes to Arians, who seems incapable of realizing how best to utilize his players, whether its FWP/Mendenhall/Moore and Carey Davis for that matter.

The coaches' expectations for Mendenhall in 2009 are the same as they were in '08. He will spell starter Willie Parker, contributing as a runner, receiver and blocker.

That was the role Mewelde Moore played last year. As Parker's backup and starting four games when Parker was hurt Moore rushed 140 times for 588 yards and five touchdowns and caught 40 passes for 320 yards and one TD.

"The job Mewelde Moore did for us last year was probably the most underappreciated job for us getting to the Super Bowl," offensive coordinator Bruce Arians said. "He stepped in and hit some home runs. Those should be Rashard's plays. That's the role he should have."
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-08-11/steelers-mendenhall-ready-burst-scene

Well if that's the case then why wasn't Moore in the gameplan at all during the playoffs? Did he just figure that out 6 months later? And what does Mendenhall need to show to take that job?

revefsreleets
08-22-2009, 07:29 PM
So it's back to you knowing better than Arians?

Fine. You're smarter and a better OC than Arians. Happy?

None of this changes the FACT that the Super Bowl champion Steelers will be utilizing Parker/Mendy as 1 and 2 down backs, and Moore as a 3rd down/long down/passing down back. And that is as it should be.

Dino 6 Rings
08-22-2009, 08:15 PM
Hey...who just scored a Rushing Touchdown against the Redskins starting defense...who was that again?

Dino 6 Rings
08-22-2009, 08:16 PM
And who got their number 1 offense stuffed from inside the 5 where they had to settle for a field goal? who was that again?

no wonder he hangs out on this board so much...the Redskins Suck!!!

AllD
08-22-2009, 10:01 PM
Parker looked good tonight on the outside. Mendy up the middle and Redman in short yardage. Parker has another year left in him, don't forget it.

revefsreleets
08-24-2009, 08:48 AM
It will be interesting to see how bad Parker "sucks" in a contract year...

He could also benefit from the playcalling. It looks like Arians has some new wrinkles in his gameplan this year, a little more open and unpredictable handing the ball off to Parker, not just running him up the middle.

mmalone
08-24-2009, 09:10 AM
but its not like arizonas line hasnt sucked balls since grimms arrival. 2 years in and they were the 2nd worst rushing team in the league.

.

obviously, a crappy OC and Crappy Offensive coaches get you into the Super Bowl.

were 2 for 2 here...

Shit if you have a good OL you stay out of the Playoffs like the Colts and Pats.

Stay the Course...

steelreserve
08-24-2009, 11:26 AM
but its not like arizonas line hasnt sucked balls since grimms arrival. 2 years in and they were the 2nd worst rushing team in the league.

that, alone makes me so thankful we took a flier on tomlin and didnt go with russ as a replacement for cowher.

grimm was successful in pgh. grizzled vets like faneca, smith, hartings, and simmons woulda run through a brick wall for their buddy. he was one of them. but sometimes you can only catch lightning in a bttle once in a career.

its no suprise all of them guys are gone, and no suprise that the new guys grimm coaches are responding about as well to him as our guys are to larry z.

the fact that players like essex, starks, colon, okolbi, ross, and vincent werent further along in their development is proof enough that grimm isnt qualified to be a HC in this league.

he definitely did his job while he was a steeler and brought out the best of our potential HOF LG and others who i feel went above and beyond the call of duty because they related so well with him.

im not sure that translates with the cardinals current line or if the steelers players feel that type of bond with larry z.

chemistry is NOT overrated.

Yeah, those are good points. Maybe Grimm wasn't quite the genius he was made out to be either. I really don't know.

On the other hand, I think it's pretty hard to judge his performance based on Arizona's rushing offense. They're basically a 4-12 team that benefits from 2-6 bonus wins per season depending on how bad the NFC West is. They suck at drafting, they suck at developing players, they suck at finding talent, and the only reason they've been keeping their heads above water the past couple years is because they lucked into a Randy-Moss-in-his-prime type of talent thanks to yet another Al Davis screwup.

And on top of that, for as long as I can remember, their running backs have been either shitty no-names or way-past-their-prime superstars.

So not that I'm saying this makes Grimm any better, but it's just tough to evaluate anything accurately in that kind of mess.