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View Full Version : Larry Zeirlein Must Go


steelerdave1969
08-23-2009, 10:18 AM
This man just isnt getting the job done folks... our offensive line has not improved at all, but got worst since we lost Russ Grimm and things just might be getting worst with a few injuries our season is over and maybe Ben's also... Come on Coach Tomlin its time to make a move

X-Terminator
08-23-2009, 10:38 AM
This man just isnt getting the job done folks... our offensive line has not improved at all, but got worst since we lost Russ Grimm and things just might be getting worst with a few injuries our season is over and maybe Ben's also... Come on Coach Tomlin its time to make a move

Our season is over? Ben's season is over?

Huh????

KeiselPower99
08-23-2009, 10:41 AM
Hmm so Z is too blame for Harrison dominating Starksand running him into Ben?

fansince'76
08-23-2009, 10:42 AM
Not a fan of Z either, but I doubt any moves are made now.

HometownGal
08-23-2009, 10:48 AM
I'm not going to go into panic mode with this OL just yet and am certainly not going to throw Zierlein under the bus just yet either. Like Gary, I'm not a huge fan of Coach Z (and I wasn't overly fond of Grimm either) but I'm not going to pass judgment on him as it is far too early in this season and I want to see what this "new and improved" OL is going to bring to the table. Thus far in the preseason, I don't really think they've played all that badly. :noidea:

Rotorhead
08-23-2009, 10:52 AM
?? Why exactly is our season over ?? I am of the school of thought in which an OL needs "gel time" to become a more cohesive unit. They improved through last season and when we are finally settled on an Oline, they will start getting comfortable with each other's tendencies and start playing as a unit (which means better).

Gnutella
08-23-2009, 11:10 AM
Haven't we had two different starting lineups in each of our pre-season games?

theplatypus
08-23-2009, 11:24 AM
Haven't we had two different starting lineups in each of our pre-season games?

Yes.

12 hours after the 2nd preseason game and our season is over. Who would've ever thought that? :blah::blah::blah:

stillers4me
08-23-2009, 11:27 AM
Ask me in November what I think.

devilsdancefloor
08-23-2009, 11:31 AM
*que up the sky is falling kitten*

SteelTalons
08-23-2009, 11:39 AM
Historically Coach Z's OL are mediocre as hell. So while Im not a fan of him, I wont really judge this until we play a few regular season games this year. If we have a repeat of last year Z might be in hot water...

NJarhead
08-23-2009, 11:41 AM
Do we have one of the worst o-lines in football? Perhaps.
Did we go 12-4 with the toughest schedule AND win it all with them? Yes we did.
Granted, I would like to have seen some issues addressed in the draft (or FA), but I'm not too sure that the options were even there -or- that they outweigh the choices we did make.

It is what it is: a revolving door....for now. I'm still optimistic.

GridironWarrior
08-23-2009, 11:56 AM
I'd be surprised if they repeat. This Oline w/the starters is still garbage.

Psyychoward86
08-23-2009, 11:59 AM
I'd be surprised if they repeat.


Gtfo

HometownGal
08-23-2009, 12:06 PM
*que up the sky is falling kitten*

Ask and you shall receive . . . .

http://therealbarackobama.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/sky-is-falling.jpg



And - for this glorious of occasions, I've added . . .

http://russian.wunderground.com/data/wximagenew/k/KokomoJim2/602.jpg

NJarhead
08-23-2009, 12:12 PM
LOL!!!!
Maybe we should request a scrimmage against the Lions so we can truely guage how bad things are. ;-)

HometownGal
08-23-2009, 12:57 PM
LOL!!!!
Maybe we should request a scrimmage against the Lions so we can truely guage how bad things are. ;-)

Or the Pohk-Is-Ton Pygmies of the IFL. :chuckle:

MACH1
08-23-2009, 02:17 PM
Not a fan of Z either, but I doubt any moves are made now.

Me either and I agree its to late now.

mesaSteeler
08-23-2009, 02:43 PM
I hate to mention this but Tomlin did win a Superbowl last year. That gives Coach T immense clout within the Steeler organization.

I'm sure if Tomlin wanted to he could go to the Rooney's and say I want to get rid of an assistant coach and I'm sure the Rooney's would go along with it. They are hands off owners is this respect.

Since Tomlin hasn't done so I can only presume that he is happy with the performance of his assistant coaches.

If Coach T is happy then I'm happy. This continual bashing of assistant coaches gets old. You might was well start bashing Tomlin since it's his coaching staff.

mmalone
08-23-2009, 04:00 PM
I hate to mention this but Tomlin did win a Superbowl last year. That gives Coach T immense clout within the Steeler organization.

I'm sure if Tomlin wanted to he could go to the Rooney's and say I want to get rid of an assistant coach and I'm sure the Rooney's would go along with it. They are hands off owners is this respect.

Since Tomlin hasn't done so I can only presume that he is happy with the performance of his assistant coaches.

If Coach T is happy then I'm happy. This continual bashing of assistant coaches gets old. You might was well start bashing Tomlin since it's his coaching staff.

i think tomlin is thinking even bigger and more violent things....

but i will refrain from my normal posts and just say.... do something tomlin....
:tt03::tt03::tt03::tt03::tt03::tt03::tt03:

Nighthawk
08-23-2009, 05:22 PM
I'm not too worried about our Line, i do think people forget the level of pass rushers and defenses we faced last season sometimes.... Titans, Redskins, Eagles, Ravens twice, Cowboys, Patriots, and Colts... not an easy task last year. They have had time to grow together last season, and now we'll see them grow hopefully into a stronger unit.

GodofGridiron
08-23-2009, 06:23 PM
Look at how badly Starks got abused last night. Watch this footage make the rounds in the league to other def coords. You'll see more of this, i can assure you. Z and Starks need to fix this. Or Ben will miss some time again.

All its gonna take is a speed rush around the end and Ben getting face-planted into the earthworms abode and some of you would be sing a different tune. Its not time to panic, but its not as rosey and splendid as some of u make it out to be. Theres a $100M investment back there--do what it takes to protect it.

mmalone
08-23-2009, 10:00 PM
Look at how badly Starks got abused last night. Watch this footage make the rounds in the league to other def coords. You'll see more of this, i can assure you. Z and Starks need to fix this. Or Ben will miss some time again.

All its gonna take is a speed rush around the end and Ben getting face-planted into the earthworms abode and some of you would be sing a different tune. Its not time to panic, but its not as rosey and splendid as some of u make it out to be. Theres a $100M investment back there--do what it takes to protect it.

Amen....
:tt:

SteelTalons
08-23-2009, 10:26 PM
Look at how badly Starks got abused last night. Watch this footage make the rounds in the league to other def coords. You'll see more of this, i can assure you. Z and Starks need to fix this. Or Ben will miss some time again.

All its gonna take is a speed rush around the end and Ben getting face-planted into the earthworms abode and some of you would be sing a different tune. Its not time to panic, but its not as rosey and splendid as some of u make it out to be. Theres a $100M investment back there--do what it takes to protect it.

Rush around the end? More like up the middle. Look at what the Eagles did to us. They try to pick up the block on the edges and let loose the guys closet to the QB. :laughing:

I mean really its just a ton of mental/physical mistakes. I know Rod and some of the other NFL Network guys were talking about that. And one of them was like... Well isn't some of it Big Ben holding on to the ball to long... And Rod paused for a second and was like. Alright, I'll give him 5 or 6 a year for that. But who do you blame for the other 30?

Something has got to change. We won the Superbowl true, but its not something you should just sit on like its not a big deal. Ben is the best QB in Pittsburgh since Bradshaw himself. You protect Big Ben at all costs!

Maybe its an issue of the players in the OL, maybe its the coach. More than likely its a combo. If things improve enough to where Ben doesn't get planted like a flower into the dirt constantly. Then its not big deal I guess... But we can't keep having him get hit like this.

steelerdave1969
08-23-2009, 10:52 PM
Hmm so Z is too blame for Harrison dominating Starksand running him into Ben?

Didnt say that... the offensive line has pretty much stunk the last 2 years since he has taken over... that is no coincedence

steelerdave1969
08-23-2009, 10:54 PM
I'm not too worried about our Line, i do think people forget the level of pass rushers and defenses we faced last season sometimes.... Titans, Redskins, Eagles, Ravens twice, Cowboys, Patriots, and Colts... not an easy task last year. They have had time to grow together last season, and now we'll see them grow hopefully into a stronger unit.

No Excuses For This Unit... They must play better or Ben or Batch may not make it through this season

steelerdave1969
08-23-2009, 10:58 PM
Not a fan of Z either, but I doubt any moves are made now.

Yeh, your right dude. But how can anyone not see this going on? I am not a paid proffesional and I can see it. Grimm had this offensive line humming and now its just terrible. Watch the game and watch Nothing but the offensive line play in both of the games so far... this offensive line has not improved.

devilsdancefloor
08-23-2009, 11:07 PM
Didnt say that... the offensive line has pretty much stunk the last 2 years since he has taken over... that is no coincedence

in 2006 (russ grimm coaching )the steelers gave up 49 sacks. I think something has to give and it might be ben if we are not careful, but it could be that it is coaching or the lack of respect for the coach or personel or a combo of all the above. I think faneca left a poison pill with at group of guys that was here.

Preacher
08-23-2009, 11:14 PM
Geez....

First, The offensive line the first game was giving Ben at least 3 seconds to get the ball off. That isn't bad. In man cases, he had 4-5 seconds or more. That is pretty dang good.

Second, To think that the O line coach doesn't see it is a litte extreme. They have tried pulls to his side, sending the RB to his side and chipping his D guy, etc.

Third, Lest ANY OF YOU FORGET... We are still trying to dig out of the hole that GRIMM put us in. His last year here, we had 40 plus sacks. His backup center couldn't even make the team and was cut. His RG was mediocre and was released. His backups were Essex, Kemo, and Chukky Okobi, only one of whom was able to step into a starting role. He left the O line old, depleted, and one dimensional (run run run). Is THAT what you want to go back to?

Coach Z isn't my favorite. I don't know why Starks can't be told how to step to the left and pickup the outside rush. There are other things I don't like. However, the line is MUCH better than it was this time last year. It looks like, depending on who we put in there, The Guards and Center are much improved. So give it time.

OX1947
08-23-2009, 11:15 PM
I know its preseason, but the line actually looks worse then it ever has. I've been watching Steeler games for 20 years and I have never, in preseason or regular season seen a line this bad.

Preacher
08-23-2009, 11:17 PM
I know its preseason, but the line actually looks worse then it ever has. I've been watching Steeler games for 20 years and I have never, in preseason or regular season seen a line this bad.

Then you definitely weren't watch last year's preseason... Or the first few games.

Don't confuse ONE drive from this game with the entire quarter and a half that they played.

Steel Head
08-23-2009, 11:34 PM
I like how our interior line is shaping up but am worried about our tackles. I won't bash our starters but we have no other good prospects at tackle except Essex who is now our starting guard. Tony Hills is an awful player

El-Gonzo Jackson
08-24-2009, 12:17 AM
I like how our interior line is shaping up but am worried about our tackles. I won't bash our starters but we have no other good prospects at tackle except Essex who is now our starting guard. Tony Hills is an awful player

Actually, Tony Hills looked pretty good against the Redskins IMO. He has quicker feet than Max Starks, a decent kick slide, but still doesnt possess the mass or a strong punch. His hand placement was good in pass blocking.

Hills looked much better than the 1st preseason game and significantly stronger than he did last season as a rookie. I think he ends up being the backup at OT and if Essex is the starting RG.........Hills will dress on gameday as an OT.

El-Gonzo Jackson
08-24-2009, 12:21 AM
in 2006 (russ grimm coaching )the steelers gave up 49 sacks. I think something has to give and it might be ben if we are not careful, but it could be that it is coaching or the lack of respect for the coach or personel or a combo of all the above. I think faneca left a poison pill with at group of guys that was here.

In 06, Russ Grimm had Faneca, Hartings, Simmons (all 1st round picks) Marvel Smith (a 2nd round pick) and Starks(a 3rd round pick).

One could argue that Grimm had a line that the FO invested picks to get talented players for. Now the line consists of Starks, Kemo(6th round), Hartwig (7th round), Stapleton(UDFA), Colon(5th round) or Essex(3rd round reach). Zeirline has to make lemonade from lemons.

El-Gonzo Jackson
08-24-2009, 12:26 AM
I don't know why Starks can't be told how to step to the left and pickup the outside rush. .

I dont often jump at the "I told you so" card, but I was a fan of letting Starks go last season and getting a compensatory pick for him. He is a 5th year pro who cant perform fundamentals of O line play and is inconsistent in his effort.

The knock on Starks coming out of Florida was effort, 5 years later its still the same old story. Good thing his contract isnt that badly structured that he can be cut after a couple seasons.

Steel Head
08-24-2009, 12:31 AM
The knock on Starks coming out of Florida was effort, 5 years later its still the same old story. Good thing his contract isnt that badly structured that he can be cut after a couple seasons.

Yeah thar's got to be it because sometimes he plays good and sometimes he doesn't. When he came in for an injured Marvel Smith the last couple years, he played really well. But now that he is handed the starting job, he is probably getting lazy again Hopefully he gets his act together

devilsdancefloor
08-24-2009, 01:07 AM
I like how our interior line is shaping up but am worried about our tackles. I won't bash our starters but we have no other good prospects at tackle except Essex who is now our starting guard. Tony Hills is an awful player

i watched hills play and i think he did a good job, but has room to improve who doesnt.

X-Terminator
08-24-2009, 01:17 AM
Historically Coach Z's OL are mediocre as hell. So while Im not a fan of him, I wont really judge this until we play a few regular season games this year. If we have a repeat of last year Z might be in hot water...

This is where I am right now. I understand he hasn't exactly had a whole lot of talent to work with as far as high draft picks go, but this really is his last chance to get the OL going in the right direction. If he doesn't, he'll be looking for work next season. We have too much talent elsewhere on our offense for our OL to continually shyt the bed, making it far more difficult than it should be for them to be successful.

OX1947
08-24-2009, 03:06 AM
Then you definitely weren't watch last year's preseason... Or the first few games.

Don't confuse ONE drive from this game with the entire quarter and a half that they played.

Dude, are you serious? One drive?

revefsreleets
08-24-2009, 11:19 AM
Hmmmm...I actually think Hills gets cut.

Anyway, back to the original intent of this thread. I'm confused...is it the COACH that sucks, or the TALENT? You naysayers can't seem to pick one and stick with it. On one hand, it's all Arians fault because you guys know how to run an offense better than he does. On the other hand, it's Z's fault because he doesn't know how to coach an Oline. But, there's also the factor that the lineman just have no talent.

Can it really be all 3?

Steel Head
08-24-2009, 11:23 AM
Hmmmm...I actually think Hills gets cut.

Anyway, back to the original intent of this thread. I'm confused...is it the COACH that sucks, or the TALENT? You naysayers can't seem to pick one and stick with it. On one hand, it's all Arians fault because you guys know how to run an offense better than he does. On the other hand, it's Z's fault because he doesn't know how to coach an Oline. But, there's also the factor that the lineman just have no talent.

Can it really be all 3?

who knows, it could be a combination of those but the important thing is their performance is subpar

I don't even know how to properly judge an offensive line coach just by watching the games.

steelreserve
08-24-2009, 11:32 AM
I can't tell whether it's the O-Line coach or the O-Line players that are doing a bad job. I'm too busy trusting everything the front office does, since they obviously know better than me.

arge5809
08-24-2009, 11:35 AM
I would feel more comfortable blaming the slugs on the O line about the O lines preformance (or lack there of) than blaming the coach entirely.

:kick:

HometownGal
08-24-2009, 06:24 PM
I don't even know how to properly judge an offensive line coach just by watching the games.

:applaudit::thumbsup::applaudit:

Hopefully, the Arians-bashing club around here will take notice of your post and learn from it. :hatsoff:

truesteelerfan
08-24-2009, 06:35 PM
Its not that our OL is just bad....the problem is that this is their full time job, and they get paid very well to do at a very average level. How many of us could do our jobs at a below average level, and get pay raises at the percentages these guys get? However, I don't blame them for it entirely, I blame Coach Z, he has input on who he wants for his line, either he picks the wrong guys, or they don't listen to him, or he teaches them poorly. It can be fixed, but I'd like to see us getting better, not worse, and I mean by giving up less sacks (who's tired of hearing how many sacks we gave up the last 2 years), and by rushing the ball down the throats of other teams.

OX1947
08-24-2009, 06:35 PM
Blaming people for things gets a little too complicated.

Let's look at the facts. I am assuming most people know the game and can understand a few things.

Our offensive line last year was a disaster after the 2nd game of the year. Why? Steelers lost 2 of their best linemen out of the 5. One being a pro bowl LT. So they went into that Eagles game with no connection to each other and pretty much almost cost Big Ben the season.

Fine, I am willing to understand that cohesivness among the offensive line is important. That and the fact that this line isnt highly, talented, it made sense. As the season went along, they got better but still were C- at best.

Then, the playoffs came. Maybe the extra weeks rest helped, but they went from C- to B for the SD and Baltimore game. Played very well and went into the Super Bowl looking like they finally got it together.

Super Bowl came and they couldnt get one damn freakin in the goalline. If the line was just OK, they would have been able to get 1 freakin yard at the goaline. Instead, the Steelers went from blow out to nail biter. If the line could hold on to a block for one stinking yard, the Steelers would have won by 3 TD's

Now going to 2009 preseason, injuries all over the place, replacements everywhere. Not a good way to start the season. And on top of all that, newly extended LT Max Starks, the key to protecting the star QB's blide side looks like he has never played football in his life. Colon still has that look of "Was that on me". Kemo cant really pass block but can run block and everyone else, I dont know what to really make of it.

We should know for sure come first game. Titans have a good D and a good pass rusher. That will be the ultimate know all on what Steeler fans have to look forward to with our o-line.

Preacher
08-24-2009, 06:58 PM
Dude, are you serious? One drive?


Yes, I am. Go read my break down of the last two games. Fact of the matter is, the line actually is looking pretty dang good, with the except of Starks.

Both Zona and the Skins were running stunts against our line.. the skins were doing it with MONSTERS out there, including teh best 4-3 lineman in the nfl possibly, and our guys were doing very well. All but one play was giving the QB about 3 seconds at LEAST to get the ball off. Some were 4-6 seconds at least.

No. If you have the chance. Go back and watch the game and slo mo every play. Watch how our players are staying infront of the other guys. Watch how they are giving about 2-3 yards, and then stonewalling the push (which is about normal). Watch how they are handing off stunting lineman to each other and the off guy sliding back over to pick up the block.

The problem with this line, is against a BIG DLine like Washington, they aren't getting enough of a drive for run games. But their pass blocking has grown leaps and bounds over last year. I suspect that with Willie beginning to boucne the ball to the outside, teams aren't going to load up the box quite as much, or they are going to not bring hte house on most plays. That will help too, as well the quick outs Arians seems to be planning now.

I am serious. Go back and watch step by step, I think you will be amazed at just how well they actually did (and then there is Starks... dang it... I am starting to harp on the guy like others harp on Arians.... ARGHHHHHHH. Come on Starks. PLEASE prove me wrong!).

Preacher
08-24-2009, 07:04 PM
Now going to 2009 preseason, injuries all over the place, replacements everywhere. Not a good way to start the season. And on top of all that, newly extended LT Max Starks, the key to protecting the star QB's blide side looks like he has never played football in his life. Colon still has that look of "Was that on me". Kemo cant really pass block but can run block and everyone else, I dont know what to really make of it.


You are right on Max.

On Colon.. well, he may have that look, because in the first two games in the preseason, NONE of them WERE on him (except for that stupid penalty.. if that is what you mean, then nevermind, you are right). He is very possibly our best lineman so far this preseason. VERY solid. I graded him a A- so far in the first two games. Go back and watch him particularly.

Kemo was very solid his first game out as well. Almost as good as Colon. I am anxious to see him in another game, to see if that was luck or if it was indicative of his game.

Honestly. I think we have 1 position to fix right now, and that is LT.

If I had my way (and if pigs could fly :chuckle:) I would play, starting with the RT,

Colon,
Legurskey
Hartwig (maybe switch Leg. and Hartwig if Hartwig can play a bit better at guard than center)
Kemo
Essex.

Preacher
08-24-2009, 07:07 PM
I dont often jump at the "I told you so" card, but I was a fan of letting Starks go last season and getting a compensatory pick for him. He is a 5th year pro who cant perform fundamentals of O line play and is inconsistent in his effort.

The knock on Starks coming out of Florida was effort, 5 years later its still the same old story. Good thing his contract isnt that badly structured that he can be cut after a couple seasons.

Maybe El G. That was the entire point? Let him stay around for a couple more years while we develop younger, better players instead of paying some new guy to come in and learn the system, and eat up a lot of cap.

cubanstogie
08-24-2009, 07:45 PM
who knows, it could be a combination of those but the important thing is their performance is subpar

I don't even know how to properly judge an offensive line coach just by watching the games.

I agreee, it is hard to judge a coach by watching game on TV. You can question play calling or going for 4th and 1, fake punts, and other situations but judging an O line coach is quite different. The fact that our o -line did improve last year, and was injured throughout the year tells me the coach did his job. I am not one for resting on laurels but come on we did win the SB and you can't write of the coaches this soon. We are not the Raiders, hiring and firing coaches is not the way to success. If we fail to make playoffs and it is due to our o-line then we might be able to call for a guys head.

OX1947
08-24-2009, 08:12 PM
Yes, I am. Go read my break down of the last two games. Fact of the matter is, the line actually is looking pretty dang good, with the except of Starks.

Both Zona and the Skins were running stunts against our line.. the skins were doing it with MONSTERS out there, including teh best 4-3 lineman in the nfl possibly, and our guys were doing very well. All but one play was giving the QB about 3 seconds at LEAST to get the ball off. Some were 4-6 seconds at least.

No. If you have the chance. Go back and watch the game and slo mo every play. Watch how our players are staying infront of the other guys. Watch how they are giving about 2-3 yards, and then stonewalling the push (which is about normal). Watch how they are handing off stunting lineman to each other and the off guy sliding back over to pick up the block.

The problem with this line, is against a BIG DLine like Washington, they aren't getting enough of a drive for run games. But their pass blocking has grown leaps and bounds over last year. I suspect that with Willie beginning to boucne the ball to the outside, teams aren't going to load up the box quite as much, or they are going to not bring hte house on most plays. That will help too, as well the quick outs Arians seems to be planning now.

I am serious. Go back and watch step by step, I think you will be amazed at just how well they actually did (and then there is Starks... dang it... I am starting to harp on the guy like others harp on Arians.... ARGHHHHHHH. Come on Starks. PLEASE prove me wrong!).

I should have been clearer, I watched the Arizona game twice. I meant to say the first team offense only. Those who were playing 2nd quarter and on, those guys were blocking very well.

Maybe the left side was compensating for Starks playing horribly and maybe it was Hansworth who was causing the problems too, but it just felt like Mendenhall never was able to hit a hole the whole time. There was always someone missing their gap assignment and there the linebacker was. We should know by the first game what we are going to look forward to.

By the way, blaming Arians has its merits, only because he doesn't really have any imagination. He isnt a schemer. That could be because of the talent he has that doesnt implement it or it could be that he tries to do what Big Ben wants. Ben had his issues with Cowher and Whiz for a reason. Reasons were letting go of the leash. I think that is why Ben likes him, he lets him do what he wants.

mmalone
08-24-2009, 09:06 PM
. We are not the Raiders, hiring and firing coaches is not the way to success. .

correct. firing is a dead end.

but say if ben stops looking off receivers or he starts staring down his targets and the int 's start building... the coach, you the fan and everyone else is gonna be on him and say, hey ben... your doing this wrong..

so, i feel the same, maybe tomlin needs to tell his OL, OC , Z guy. hey we are not faking out the opposing defenses... we need to correct that....

they seem to know what were doing before we hike the ball.

Psyychoward86
08-24-2009, 09:14 PM
I agreee, it is hard to judge a coach by watching game on TV. You can question play calling or going for 4th and 1, fake punts, and other situations but judging an O line coach is quite different. The fact that our o -line did improve last year, and was injured throughout the year tells me the coach did his job. I am not one for resting on laurels but come on we did win the SB and you can't write of the coaches this soon. We are not the Raiders, hiring and firing coaches is not the way to success. If we fail to make playoffs and it is due to our o-line then we might be able to call for a guys head.

Haha, yes. But i think that's what we're all afraid of: Realizing we have to get rid of the weak links when it's too late :sofunny:

El-Gonzo Jackson
08-24-2009, 09:22 PM
I agreee, it is hard to judge a coach by watching game on TV. You can question play calling or going for 4th and 1, fake punts, and other situations but judging an O line coach is quite different. The fact that our o -line did improve last year, and was injured throughout the year tells me the coach did his job. I am not one for resting on laurels but come on we did win the SB and you can't write of the coaches this soon. We are not the Raiders, hiring and firing coaches is not the way to success. If we fail to make playoffs and it is due to our o-line then we might be able to call for a guys head.

Stogie you are somewhat correct that its tough to judge a coach by watching TV.........but here is a shot at it.

-The Steelers O line often blocks at the start of the play and then ends up watching the play unfold. Not "playing to the whistle" is the sign of a loosly run ship.

-Mental mistakes and poor technique is either a sign of a coach that is not a technician(Zeirline is a technician) or a unit that tunes out its coach.

-Last year on an NFL films piece, you could see the O line in disarray on the sidelines bantering at each other and Tomlin comes in and tells them to shut up and listen to the coach.

I am not a hater of coach Z. I love a guy that focuses on technique, fundamentals, hand placement, etc. But I think with Starks lack of footwork, Kemo's inability to recognize twists and Stapletons hesitation on pulling at times last season, its a sign that he does not command the full attention of ........"the Mach 5". This may likely be his last year with the team.

SteelCityMan786
08-24-2009, 09:30 PM
Didn't take too long for the first thread regarding a firing to start.

Preacher
08-24-2009, 10:16 PM
Stogie you are somewhat correct that its tough to judge a coach by watching TV.........but here is a shot at it.

-The Steelers O line often blocks at the start of the play and then ends up watching the play unfold. Not "playing to the whistle" is the sign of a loosly run ship.

-Mental mistakes and poor technique is either a sign of a coach that is not a technician(Zeirline is a technician) or a unit that tunes out its coach.

-Last year on an NFL films piece, you could see the O line in disarray on the sidelines bantering at each other and Tomlin comes in and tells them to shut up and listen to the coach.

I am not a hater of coach Z. I love a guy that focuses on technique, fundamentals, hand placement, etc. But I think with Starks lack of footwork, Kemo's inability to recognize twists and Stapletons hesitation on pulling at times last season, its a sign that he does not command the full attention of ........"the Mach 5". This may likely be his last year with the team.

:buttkick:

That is almost ban worthy!! :chuckle:

tony hipchest
08-24-2009, 10:22 PM
-The Steelers O line often blocks at the start of the play and then ends up watching the play unfold. Not "playing to the whistle" is the sign of a loosly run ship.

.ive focused pretty heavilly on the 3rd team defense in the 4th quarter of both games upon review (were young on offense and old on defense so i kinda wanna see what may be our "future").

you bring up a great point. one thing that has stood out to me big time is that defensive youngsters (who have no shot of starting or even making the team) play balls out, 100mph, and whistle to whistle.

whether they are right or not on the mental aspect, z. hood, r. harris, r. lewis, k. lewis, and d. richardson are always hustling and flying to the ball.

its no coincidence that "coach dad" and the youngest HC to ever win a SB's specialty is in coaching the leagues #1 defense.

now im a steelerfan through and through, but larry z may reach lebeau in age but he will never be on his level. fact is, our defensive coaches are simply better than offensive ones.

it shouldnt be a SFsin to point that out. the proof is in the pudding. i dont care what it takes. if drinking a brew with all the guys after practice produces a better product, then by all means, im all for it! :thumbsup:

tomlin and the defensive coaches are doing their job, as i believe arians is. if larry z is doing his, it means the front office isnt doing theirs (i have a hard time believing that).

devilsdancefloor
08-24-2009, 10:51 PM
could it be that the staff is focusing on guys who can play several positions and not focusing on on position? It seems like we have a lot of guy who can play guard and tackle and do both "okay". Im an believer that it all starts at center . hartwig is decent but i dont know if he was to worried about helping stapleton last year or he just doesnt have what it takes to handle the monsters @ NT we play. I think that is where i have been most impressed with legursky. He seems to keep a very good sense of balance and stand up the NT especially fat albert. I really do not know much about coach Z except he likes forwarding porn, But i do know he doesnt have the respect of his Oline like coach dad does of all the defense guys like tony said.

cubanstogie
08-24-2009, 11:49 PM
Stogie you are somewhat correct that its tough to judge a coach by watching TV.........but here is a shot at it.

-The Steelers O line often blocks at the start of the play and then ends up watching the play unfold. Not "playing to the whistle" is the sign of a loosly run ship.

-Mental mistakes and poor technique is either a sign of a coach that is not a technician(Zeirline is a technician) or a unit that tunes out its coach.

-Last year on an NFL films piece, you could see the O line in disarray on the sidelines bantering at each other and Tomlin comes in and tells them to shut up and listen to the coach.

I am not a hater of coach Z. I love a guy that focuses on technique, fundamentals, hand placement, etc. But I think with Starks lack of footwork, Kemo's inability to recognize twists and Stapletons hesitation on pulling at times last season, its a sign that he does not command the full attention of ........"the Mach 5". This may likely be his last year with the team.

Excellent points, I never played line and its probably too black and white with me instead of in depth analysis. One thing that annoyed me was the constant penalties, especially Colon's false starts,holding penalties, and heck not even lining up on the line of scrimmage. I just have a hard time blaming the coach for those mistakes.

OneForTheToe
08-25-2009, 12:10 AM
could it be that the staff is focusing on guys who can play several positions and not focusing on on position? It seems like we have a lot of guy who can play guard and tackle and do both "okay". Im an believer that it all starts at center . hartwig is decent but i dont know if he was to worried about helping stapleton last year or he just doesnt have what it takes to handle the monsters @ NT we play. I think that is where i have been most impressed with legursky. He seems to keep a very good sense of balance and stand up the NT especially fat albert. I really do not know much about coach Z except he likes forwarding porn, But i do know he doesnt have the respect of his Oline like coach dad does of all the defense guys like tony said.

I too am impressed with Legursky, but I wouldn't assume he can handle those monster NT in today's NFL just yet. Hainsworth is a vet he knows how to pace himself in the preseason. I'm not putting Legursky down because he has looked impressive, but he probably has some work to do before he becomes our next center.. Besides, I thought Hartwig did pretty well against the monster NT's he faced last season.

The NFL has changed. I don't ever recall a time when there were so many massive and skilled NT/DTs in the game. I doubt there is a center in the NFL today that could handle any one of "Big Snack," Haloti Ngata , Hainsworth, Jamal Williams, Vince Wilfork, Shaun Rogers, ect., all by himself for a game. If you go back even ten years there were centers that could handle the day's NTs by themselves.

Here is hoping that Legursky can be our next great center, but I need to see more before I would feel comfortable seeing him banging heads with the likes of Haloti Ngata and Shaun Rogers twice a year.

tony hipchest
08-25-2009, 12:13 AM
heres the "problem" with larry z (and its not necessarily his problem).

faneca, smith, and simmons were all wanting their guy (grimm) to be the steelers head coach. is it any suprise none of those guys are with the team any longer?

grimm, a laid back, potential hall of fame player and sb winning coach, was replaced with some old assed, no named, coach who was busted passing porn to the rest of the league on the internet. it was pretty much up to the players to give him their respect (regardless of what he did to earn it. personally i think he was a running joke in the locker room).

like it was said in Remember the Titans "attitude reflects leadership".

i think a lot of the newer players attitude was inherited from our OL "leaders" of the past.

we cant throw out all our talent out with the bath water. larry z is almost caught up in a no win situation. either way, this could be the make or break year for him.

i think the damage may have been done from day one and a change may be in order.

unfortunately, larry may never be able to coach up this bunch, based on nothing more than locker room culture.

Preacher
08-25-2009, 12:14 AM
I too am impressed with Legursky, but I wouldn't assume he can handle those monster NT in today's NFL just yet. Hainsworth is a vet he knows how to pace himself in the preseason. I'm not putting Legursky down because he has looked impressive, but he probably has some work to do before he becomes our next center.. Besides, I thought Hartwig did pretty well against the monster NT's he faced last season.

The NFL has changed. I don't ever recall a time when there were so many massive and skilled NT/DTs in the game. I doubt there is a center in the NFL today that could handle any one of "Big Snack," Haloti Ngata , Hainsworth, Jamal Williams, Vince Wilfork, Shaun Rogersect. all by himself for a game. If you go back even ten years there were centers that do just that.

Here is hoping that Legursky can be our next great center, but I need to see more before I would feel comfortable seeing him banging heads with the likes of Haloti Ngata and Shaun Rogers twice a year.

:hatsoff: Very fair assessment.

I am one that after two games of watching this kid VERY closely, have been completely won over. But you bring up excellent points about pacing oneself, and facing this kind of competition game in and game out. Maybe it would be better to let him slide over and play RT this year, just to get the feel of the game at this pace before he takes over at center (projecting that he will be able to do it).

OneForTheToe
08-25-2009, 12:22 AM
:hatsoff: Very fair assessment.

I am one that after two games of watching this kid VERY closely, have been completely won over. But you bring up excellent points about pacing oneself, and facing this kind of competition game in and game out. Maybe it would be better to let him slide over and play RT this year, just to get the feel of the game at this pace before he takes over at center (projecting that he will be able to do it).

I agree. I said the other day I wanted to see Legursky get a chance at RG (I think that is what you meant?). Nothing against Essex, but he is also our best backup tackle. I want him saved if we can find a comparable replacement at RG.

Preacher
08-25-2009, 12:35 AM
I agree. I said the other day I wanted to see Legursky get a chance at RG (I think that is what you meant?). Nothing against Essex, but he is also our best backup tackle. I want him saved if we can find a comparable replacement at RT.

Exactly. I think Kemo is turning into a beast. SO with Leg. on the other side, our inner three could be VERY solid. However, I am also going to keep an eye on Hartwig, because I did see a couple of problems... like that one spin move that left him looking like he was dancing with himself. But like I said, this was his first game back.

I don't know. I just wonder if Essex would be better in the LT spot with Starks as a backup. When he gets his hands on people, they stop. Maybe he should have been a guard? Least a backup guard.

MasterOfPuppets
08-25-2009, 01:36 AM
Exactly. I think Kemo is turning into a beast. SO with Leg. on the other side, our inner three could be VERY solid. However, I am also going to keep an eye on Hartwig, because I did see a couple of problems... like that one spin move that left him looking like he was dancing with himself. But like I said, this was his first game back.

I don't know. I just wonder if Essex would be better in the LT spot with Starks as a backup. When he gets his hands on people, they stop. Maybe he should have been a guard? Least a backup guard.
the FO would look pretty silly after giving him MO money just to see him benched for a second time in 5 years....:doh: but none the less, the steelers have had plenty of time to evaluate essex and decide if he's better suited at tackle than starks. don't you think if they thought he was, they wouldn't have been willing to give slax 8 mill or a new contract?

Preacher
08-25-2009, 02:25 AM
the FO would look pretty silly after giving him MO money just to see him benched for a second time in 5 years....:doh: but none the less, the steelers have had plenty of time to evaluate essex and decide if he's better suited at tackle than starks. don't you think if they thought he was, they wouldn't have been willing to give slax 8 mill or a new contract?

I don't know... that entire thing just rings of something behind the scenes happening. Maybe Starks was the guy that stood up to Big Red and told him to shut up... it is no longer the Cowher way of doing things? Maybe he turned into an off-field leader?

There is just something there beyond eyesight that I think the Rooney's and the FO know about. Something intangible that can't be measured in performance on the field.

Who knows.

MasterOfPuppets
08-25-2009, 02:29 AM
I don't know... that entire thing just rings of something behind the scenes happening. Maybe Starks was the guy that stood up to Big Red and told him to shut up... it is no longer the Cowher way of doing things? Maybe he turned into an off-field leader?

There is just something there beyond eyesight that I think the Rooney's and the FO know about. Something intangible that can't be measured in performance on the field.

Who knows. exactly..its not the cowher way... thats why chuck okolbi's inflated free check was cut off as soon as cowher left.

Preacher
08-25-2009, 02:44 AM
exactly..its not the cowher way... thats why chuck okolbi's inflated free check was cut off as soon as cowher left.

And/or Grimm. I tend to think Grimm actually had a lot to do with it.

SO maybe that was part of it. Starks stood up and helped transition the team. It would make sense... and also make sense why they would 1, keep him around with Simmons and Smith still around and 2. keep him around because now that they are gone, they need the depth and knowledge of the gamebook.

Either that... or they think that it is worth keeping him around for the times when he is ON...

And I gotta say this... when he IS on.. he is VERY good.

FredScott
08-25-2009, 04:31 AM
This is kinda funny seeing as our actual starting OLine has yet to play together this season. Both games 1 or 2 were out resting injuries so lets wait till we have the entire line in there to start judging them and besides it's only preseason football, I think your way over reacting. We will be just fine.

El-Gonzo Jackson
08-25-2009, 10:43 AM
Excellent points, I never played line and its probably too black and white with me instead of in depth analysis. One thing that annoyed me was the constant penalties, especially Colon's false starts,holding penalties, and heck not even lining up on the line of scrimmage. I just have a hard time blaming the coach for those mistakes.

Generally penalties can be an indicator of coaching, but I agree with you that Colon false starts cant be hung on Coach Z.

The lack of playing to the whistle was noticed by me in the Ravens game in Baltimore last year. I saw the Steelers O line blocking, holding their runblocks for maybe a 2 count and then becoming spectators. The Ravens line on the other hand kept leaning on defenders right to and thru the whistle.

That was a kind of difference in intensity that made me question the O line leadership. But, again I think Coach Z isnt going anywhere this season, but next who knows.

#1LambertFan
08-25-2009, 08:19 PM
This man just isnt getting the job done folks... our offensive line has not improved at all, but got worst since we lost Russ Grimm and things just might be getting worst with a few injuries our season is over and maybe Ben's also... Come on Coach Tomlin its time to make a move

Join the club dude. The only people that like him are our opponents!