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View Full Version : Ok. I just don't get the Davis hate--inform me.


Preacher
09-02-2009, 12:49 PM
Every game I have broken down, Davis has looked good. One of the better blockers on the team. He has sealed off blockers to form lanes. He has kicked blockers out.

Can this REALLY be just because he didn't catch the ball and maul through a couple tackles to get a first down int he playoffs two years ago? I am starting to think so.

Because I just don't see any reason why this guy should be cut. He is doing very well.

BlastFurnace
09-02-2009, 12:54 PM
I don't have a problem with Davis either. So he's not John L. Williams...I can live with that. I think he's a good fullback.

The problem with the running game isn't Davis...but he seems to get bunched in with the problems we have had with the O-line.

steelreserve
09-02-2009, 12:59 PM
OK, so I don't watch every single block he throws, but he does not seem like the kind of impact blocker that Kreider was, not even close. We were more effective running the ball with McHugh in the game last year, that's for sure.

Also, it's frustrating that he brings NO production whatsoever when you get the ball to him. No rushing ability to speak of, not good in short yardage, and when he catches the ball it's for 2 yards and he goes down immediately when the smallest defender on the team gets a pinky on him. Yeah, I get that your fullback is not going to be your leading rusher or anything, but that position shouldn't be a complete throwaway. That's why people are excited about Summers.

So basically, he does only one thing, and he does it OK at best. Lots of room for improvement.

SteelersinCA
09-02-2009, 01:26 PM
OK, so I don't watch every single block he throws, but he does not seem like the kind of impact blocker that Kreider was, not even close. We were more effective running the ball with McHugh in the game last year, that's for sure.

Also, it's frustrating that he brings NO production whatsoever when you get the ball to him. No rushing ability to speak of, not good in short yardage, and when he catches the ball it's for 2 yards and he goes down immediately when the smallest defender on the team gets a pinky on him. Yeah, I get that your fullback is not going to be your leading rusher or anything, but that position shouldn't be a complete throwaway. That's why people are excited about Summers.

So basically, he does only one thing, and he does it OK at best. Lots of room for improvement.

Agreed. For me it's not just one time in the playoffs 2 years ago. It's every time it's 3rd and 2 or 3 and Ben dumps it to him and he gets brought down half a yard from the 1st down. I can't honestly recall him ever making a 1st in those situations. He may be a decent blocker, but that generally goes unnoticed. I doubt there are too many people breaking down game tape. So to the masses, Davis is just a waste of space.

Steel Head
09-02-2009, 01:26 PM
Every game I have broken down, Davis has looked good. One of the better blockers on the team. He has sealed off blockers to form lanes. He has kicked blockers out.
.

I question your judgement

he is not a good lead blocker. McHugh was much better last year

lamberts-lost-tooth
09-02-2009, 01:42 PM
Every game I have broken down, Davis has looked good. One of the better blockers on the team. He has sealed off blockers to form lanes. He has kicked blockers out.

Can this REALLY be just because he didn't catch the ball and maul through a couple tackles to get a first down int he playoffs two years ago? I am starting to think so.

Because I just don't see any reason why this guy should be cut. He is doing very well.

Fair question Preacher.

I will try to be just as fair in my reply....For years we ran the same black and blue, three yards and a cloud of dust offense. That offense was predicated on a smash-mouth run game. When many of us think of Steelers Football we think of Tim Lester and Dan Kreider opening holes for the likes of Jerome Bettis.

Though many of us are not outwardly antagonistic towards Coach Arians new Steelers offensive style and in fact appreciate the wins that the coaching staff has brought to our team ...I think that Davis, as a smaller FB, epitomizes what we miss in the Lester/Kreider days. We would LOVE to see the passing game remain a factor but miss the smashmouth running style of the past.

So much of it is probably a romaticized notion that we may draft some big FB or RB that will take us back to those days...(probably why we love to see a John Kuhn or a Frank Summers get a shot with the team)

lamberts-lost-tooth
09-02-2009, 01:45 PM
I question your judgement




Based on what?

Preacher presented his arguement very well...what are your facts?

Men of Steel
09-02-2009, 01:57 PM
davis sucks. he isnt clutch when we need him to be... which is hardly ever! but when called upon... yes.. .he sucks. :coffee:

Hines0wnz
09-02-2009, 02:03 PM
I dont think he sucks necessarily but he hasnt been a big asset either.

The Lakelander
09-02-2009, 02:05 PM
Davis blows.

He is the lowest common denominator.

If there is a weak link on this football team who is upgradable in terms of talent and raw athletic ability, it is Davis.

Davis is undersized for an NFL Fullback.

Davis is relatively slow by NFL standards.

Davis can catch the football, but has absolutely zero ability to elude a tackler or break a play once he has the football.

If Frank Summers is given a chance to learn the role Davis currently plays, he'd do it better through and through. He just needs the time and the reps.

steelreserve
09-02-2009, 02:05 PM
Fair question Preacher.

I will try to be just as fair in my reply....For years we ran the same black and blue, three yards and a cloud of dust offense. That offense was predicated on a smash-mouth run game. When many of us think of Steelers Football we think of Tim Lester and Dan Kreider opening holes for the likes of Jerome Bettis.

Though many of us are not outwardly antagonistic towards Coach Arians new Steelers offensive style and in fact appreciate the wins that the coaching staff has brought to our team ...I think that Davis, as a smaller FB, epitomizes what we miss in the Lester/Kreider days. We would LOVE to see the passing game remain a factor but miss the smashmouth running style of the past.

So much of it is probably a romaticized notion that we may draft some big FB or RB that will take us back to those days...(probably why we love to see a John Kuhn or a Frank Summers get a shot with the team)

I love it how every time we have problems with the running game, someone thinks it's because we're just imagining them out of nostalgia, not because the running backs aren't any good.

I mean, this has been going on for three years. Get it through your heads -- NOBODY CARES whether it's a big running back with a smashmouth style, or a small running back with a finesse style, or a gay running back with a drunk style. NOBODY CARES ABOUT THAT. Just gain some yards CONSISTENTLY. I don't care how.

Our backs don't do that now. Bettis wasn't the only back who ever did that for us. Kreider wasn't the only good fullback. We honestly DON'T have tunnel vision that bad. We can remember what other backs on the Steelers have done, and *gasp* even see what backs on OTHER TEAMS are doing -- I know, scary, ain't it?

But no, maybe you're right. Maybe we're all criticizing the running game because we can't remember anything about football beyond one team for five years, so that's all we ever compare it to.

Buzz05
09-02-2009, 02:06 PM
I question your judgement

he is not a good lead blocker. McHugh was much better last year

Being around this forum for quite some time I think Preacher's judgement is one of the few around that needs to be questioned.

It was a fair question and opinion. I actually was wondering the same thing myself.

Buzz05
09-02-2009, 02:10 PM
or a gay running back with a drunk style.

Who you talkin bout Willis? :noidea:

Preacher
09-02-2009, 02:14 PM
OK, so I don't watch every single block he throws, but he does not seem like the kind of impact blocker that Kreider was, not even close. We were more effective running the ball with McHugh in the game last year, that's for sure.

Also, it's frustrating that he brings NO production whatsoever when you get the ball to him. No rushing ability to speak of, not good in short yardage, and when he catches the ball it's for 2 yards and he goes down immediately when the smallest defender on the team gets a pinky on him. Yeah, I get that your fullback is not going to be your leading rusher or anything, but that position shouldn't be a complete throwaway. That's why people are excited about Summers.

So basically, he does only one thing, and he does it OK at best. Lots of room for improvement.

Agreed. For me it's not just one time in the playoffs 2 years ago. It's every time it's 3rd and 2 or 3 and Ben dumps it to him and he gets brought down half a yard from the 1st down. I can't honestly recall him ever making a 1st in those situations. He may be a decent blocker, but that generally goes unnoticed. I doubt there are too many people breaking down game tape. So to the masses, Davis is just a waste of space.

So for the both of you, it ISNT his blocking, but it is his lack of production when given the ball? That's fair. He hasn't been given the ball much this year in the preseason at all. So there is nothing there for me to evaluate him on. I do have to wonder though, I don't remember seeing Lester (the molester) :chuckle: or Kreider with a lot of catches out of the backfield. Matter of fact, if I remember right (and I have the memory of a gold fish so possibly not), one of the major reasons that we let Kreider go was that he COULDNT be productive as a pass catcher.

So much of it is probably a romaticized notion that we may draft some big FB or RB that will take us back to those days...(probably why we love to see a John Kuhn or a Frank Summers get a shot with the team)

I do wonder if this is part of it. For the heck of it, I went back and check a couple stats.

Dan Kreider--Career 9 years (through 2008).
5-11 255 pounds. 60 catches-471 yards 7.9 average 2 TDs Rushing: 32 attempts 144 yards, 2 TD's4.5 average.

Tim Lester-- Career 8 years, 4 with Pit.
5-10 233 pounds. 47 catches-331 yards 7.0 average 0 TDS. Rushing 33 attempts 126 yards 2 TD's 3.8 average.

Carey Davis-2 seasons (of actual playing time. Three other seasons no playing time)
5-10 225 pounds. 17 catches 76 yards 4.5 average 0 TDs. Rushing 29 attempts 103 yards 0 TD's 4.5 average.

So from a cursory look... Davis doesn't get as many yards in the passing game, but is equal to Kreider and better than Lester in the run game when he carries the ball (cursory look). Since the pass game is the one that is least about size, I tend to think that his size has nothing to do with his ability compared to the other two.

I do wonder about that average though. Would love to have tapes of Kreider and lester and see if they ran through people, or were just open because of the strong run game.

However, again, on a very cursory look, it seems that you may be right LLT, it is more of a romantic view than reality.

lamberts-lost-tooth
09-02-2009, 02:19 PM
I love it how every time we have problems with the running game, someone thinks it's because we're just imagining them out of nostalgia, not because the running backs aren't any good.

.


The question wasnt "why why dont have a good running game"....the question is "why we dont like Davis" In fact we arent even talking about RB's...but rather FB's!!!

My answer was that "I think that Davis, as a smaller FB, epitomizes what we miss in the Lester/Kreider days
In a nutshell...We (myself included) would like to see a bigger FB who would not only takes on his man but destroys holes so that our "gay/drunk" RB's can get yardage up the middle.

I mean, this has been going on for three years. Get it through your heads -- NOBODY CARES whether it's a big running back with a smashmouth style, or a small running back with a finesse style, or a gay running back with a drunk style. NOBODY CARES ABOUT THAT. Just gain some yards CONSISTENTLY. I don't care how.

Again...the question was about FB's...not RB's

Our backs don't do that now. Bettis wasn't the only back who ever did that for us. Kreider wasn't the only good fullback. We honestly DON'T have tunnel vision that bad. We can remember what other backs on the Steelers have done, and *gasp* even see what backs on OTHER TEAMS are doing -- I know, scary, ain't it?

Lester and Kreider were examples...not the end-all prototypes...I would be happy to name FB's all the way back to the 60's for you if it would make you feel better.

But no, maybe you're right. Maybe we're all criticizing the running game because we can't remember anything about football beyond one team for five years, so that's all we ever compare it to

I dont think the original question was meant as a critcism of the run game...I took it for face value. "Why do we hate Davis"?

Preacher
09-02-2009, 02:20 PM
I love it how every time we have problems with the running game, someone thinks it's because we're just imagining them out of nostalgia, not because the running backs aren't any good.

I mean, this has been going on for three years. Get it through your heads -- NOBODY CARES whether it's a big running back with a smashmouth style, or a small running back with a finesse style, or a gay running back with a drunk style. NOBODY CARES ABOUT THAT. Just gain some yards CONSISTENTLY. I don't care how.

Our backs don't do that now. Bettis wasn't the only back who ever did that for us. Kreider wasn't the only good fullback. We honestly DON'T have tunnel vision that bad. We can remember what other backs on the Steelers have done, and *gasp* even see what backs on OTHER TEAMS are doing -- I know, scary, ain't it?

But no, maybe you're right. Maybe we're all criticizing the running game because we can't remember anything about football beyond one team for five years, so that's all we ever compare it to.

To be fair, I don't think that is what he is saying. I think what he is saying is that the hatred for Davis is misplaced because everyone RECOGNIZES the problem with the run game, and they are looking for a place to find the problem... and Davis is an easy target... as is Willie P.

I think the overall problem is much more complex than that. It has to do with using runs regardless of what they achieve to setup other plays down the road. it has to do with converting to a balanced offense and thus, making our line pass block as well as run block. it has to do with us not going out and getting the biggest, baddest bowling ball for a RB because we expect more out of him out of the backfield than just running the ball.

But to THIS thread, i think he is right. Davis is bearing some of the brunt of the frustration simply because he is one of the things that have changed.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 02:23 PM
I dont think the original question was meant as a critcism of the run game...I took it for face value. "Why do we hate Davis"?

Bingo.

Because in the run game, he is one of our best blockers that I have seen. Starks misses about every other block. kemo is ok. Hartwig is so-so (good if he pulls and squares up a block. Not so good if he has to slant to the left or right). Essex--just not enough film on him yet, but has done decently. Colon is a monster in a mini-monster body. He is our best run blocker so far... and Heath is right there with him.

Then it is Davis.

RoethlisBURGHer
09-02-2009, 02:38 PM
When we have had 3rd-and-1 and we need that yard, I was Davis go in to block and he gets NO PUSH.

Dan Kreider made Ray Lewis his bitch. Davis can't block the current version of Ray Lewis...much less the younger and better version Kreider often pancaked.

It doesn't help that we have a suspect offensive line. But Davis isn't, IMHO, a very good lead blocker.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 02:43 PM
When we have had 3rd-and-1 and we need that yard, I was Davis go in to block and he gets NO PUSH.

Dan Kreider made Ray Lewis his bitch. Davis can't block the current version of Ray Lewis...much less the younger and better version Kreider often pancaked.

It doesn't help that we have a suspect offensive line. But Davis isn't, IMHO, a very good lead blocker.

But NOTHING this preseason--and yes, I am only looking at this preseason, suggests what you have just said.

Now, my opinion may completely change once the season begins and I watch him then. But look back at all my breakdowns. I only see once where his guy makes the tackle or even forces the issue.... and that was when his guy was on his knees, which means the RB probably cut the corner a bit close.

1207
09-02-2009, 02:45 PM
I have never been a real big fan of Davis. I am not really concerned with his production running and receiving the ball. Anything we get from him in those areas as far as production is just gravey. I just don't think he is a very good impact lead blocker. Yes, he gets to his assignments, but you never really see him blow anybody out of the hole. This becomes more apparent is short yardage situations, in which it seems he spends more time blocking on the wrong side of the line of scrimmage. To be fair, it is hard to be an impact blocker, if the O-line is being pushed back into the backfield. That said, I feel we can upgrade at the fullback position. In my opinion, both McHugh, and D. Johnson are better lead blockers.

OneForTheToe
09-02-2009, 02:51 PM
I think to understand the hate for Davis you have to hearken back to why some were so excited about him a few years ago. The fact that he is a better runner than Krieder or Williams isn't really relevant. Those aforementioned players were on the team to be bulkldozers from the FB position.

A few years ago when we fans around here were buzzing about Davis it wasn't because we thought he could block like Krieder, but because he seemed like a guy that could do it all well. He could block, carry the football (remember how many carry he had a few years ago in pre season), catch passes, and return kickoffs. It seemed like he would be perfect fit for the team a quality contributor everywhere and perfect for Arians' offense. Unfortunately, I now see Davis as a classic tweener. A guy that can play many different roles, but isn't very good at any of them. He can block, but he does not excell at it, at it at a position where blocking is the most important thing. He can return kicks, but again only fairly and we can do better. He can carry the ball in short yardage, but we can do better.

And that pretty much sums it up for me, Davis can do a lot, but we have a player(s) capable of doing everything he does better in every role he plays.

As for how good a blocker he really is, if he is such a great blocker how come a TE replaced him most of the time last season when a blocker was needed?

Preacher
09-02-2009, 02:51 PM
I have never been a real big fan of Davis. I am not really concerned with his production running and receiving the ball. Anything we get from him in those areas as far as production is just gravey. I just don't think he is a very good impact lead blocker. Yes, he gets to his assignments, but you never really see him blow anybody out of the hole. This becomes more apparent is short yardage situations, in which it seems he spends more time blocking on the wrong side of the line of scrimmage. To be fair, it is hard to be an impact blocker, if the O-line is being pushed back into the backfield. That said, I feel we can upgrade at the fullback position. In my opinion, both McHugh, and D. Johnson are better lead blockers.

But I think you illustrate my point. Are we looking for style points or for actual productivity. He seals people off, he kicks people out of the hole (See last thursdays game). What he doesn't do is make ESPN highlights. I personally don't care about those. When he does meet people on the wrong side of the line, that is not his fault. that is the offensive lines fault, because it means he is meeting DE's and DT's.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 02:55 PM
The funniest thing about this whole thread....

Go back and look at how many things I posted about Summers since this draft. HE is the guy I really hope will step up!!

I'm still blah on Davis. We can upgrade there if necessary. I just think we need to upgrade in at least two maybe three spots on the line before we get to the point that HE is the weak link.

Starks is a weaker link.

Hartwig is a weaker link.

Kemo is a weaker link right now.. but will probably improve.

Essex is a weaker link right now, but will also probably improve.

So I want to see at least Starks and hartwig replaced. Then, Davis becomes an issue for us.

1207
09-02-2009, 03:10 PM
I agree with you, in that productivity is what matters, not style points. But that is the problem, there is just not enough productivity (especially last season). I admit, I did not get a chance to see last Thursday's game, nor do I breakdown film to see if individual assignments are being met, but to the naked eye Davis appears to be an adequate FB at best. Personally I feel McHugh is a superior FB to Davis ( his ability to play TE aside), but unfortunately he is hurt, and most likely will be cut, or placed on IR.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 03:14 PM
I agree with you, in that productivity is what matters, not style points. But that is the problem, there is just not enough productivity (especially last season). I admit, I did not get a chance to see last Thursday's game, nor do I breakdown film to see if individual assignments are being met, but to the naked eye Davis appears to be an adequate FB at best. Personally I feel McHugh is a superior FB to Davis ( his ability to play TE aside), but unfortunately he is hurt, and most likely will be cut, or placed on IR.

See, when i was just watching it, to the naked eye I was thinking the same thing. Then I started going back and forth, slo-mo, etc. And came to a different conclusion.

It is a shame McHugh was injured. I would have loved to compare him to Davis to see who was better. I remember last year being much happier with McHugh as FB.

1207
09-02-2009, 03:16 PM
The funniest thing about this whole thread....

Go back and look at how many things I posted about Summers since this draft. HE is the guy I really hope will step up!!

I'm still blah on Davis. We can upgrade there if necessary. I just think we need to upgrade in at least two maybe three spots on the line before we get to the point that HE is the weak link.

Starks is a weaker link.

Hartwig is a weaker link.

Kemo is a weaker link right now.. but will probably improve.

Essex is a weaker link right now, but will also probably improve.

So I want to see at least Starks and hartwig replaced. Then, Davis becomes an issue for us.

I fully agree with this also, in that the line is a bigger concern that Davis when it comes to lack of production in the running game. I don't know if I agree if everyone of those players is a weaker link ( personally I think Kemo is a pretty good run blocker, it's his pass blocking that concerns me), but I was just offering my 2 cents on Davis. That said, I believe Davis will make the team, and be the main FB this season, unless Johnson just comes on like a ton of bricks, and forces Tomlin to play him.

1207
09-02-2009, 03:18 PM
McHugh was a very good FB at Penn State, and I do not remember him playing any TE while there.

RoethlisBURGHer
09-02-2009, 03:21 PM
The funniest thing about this whole thread....

Go back and look at how many things I posted about Summers since this draft. HE is the guy I really hope will step up!!

I'm still blah on Davis. We can upgrade there if necessary. I just think we need to upgrade in at least two maybe three spots on the line before we get to the point that HE is the weak link.

Starks is a weaker link.

Hartwig is a weaker link.

Kemo is a weaker link right now.. but will probably improve.

Essex is a weaker link right now, but will also probably improve.

So I want to see at least Starks and hartwig replaced. Then, Davis becomes an issue for us.

I agree with that totally.

But if we can upgrade the fullback right now, I say upgrade it now. We are obviously not upgrading the offensive line before the season starts (and it's doubtful that we will in-season without multiple injuries).

Davis is a a jack-of-multiple-trades, but a master of none.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 03:21 PM
I fully agree with this also, in that the line is a bigger concern that Davis when it comes to lack of production in the running game. I don't know if I agree if everyone of those players is a weaker link ( personally I think Kemo is a pretty good run blocker, it's his pass blocking that concerns me), but I was just offering my 2 cents on Davis. That said, I believe Davis will make the team, and be the main FB this season, unless Johnson just comes on like a ton of bricks, and forces Tomlin to play him.

On Kemo... Remember this was his first game back after being out last game. So he doesn't have all the rust knocked off yet. That is why I said he will probably improve.

Thing about Johnson... is I saw him go into the middle and literally bounce off two men. didn't move the pile an inch. he was too high and no leg drive. Now I know this isn't Rugby, but when we would go in to maul (and have to drive a pile), you get low and explode out. So i don't think Johnson will do it.

Gotta wonder about McHugh though. Does he come back and make the team? Hmmm. Dang I wish I could see some stuff on hi.... WAIT A SECOND. I have the SB taped. Guess what I'll be doing tonigh!!!! :laughing:

Steel Head
09-02-2009, 03:24 PM
Based on what?

Preacher presented his arguement very well...what are your facts?

His assessment that Davis is a good blocker obviously

I watch the games too and don't see Davis as a good blocker, many would agree

Preacher
09-02-2009, 03:24 PM
I agree with that totally.

But if we can upgrade the fullback right now, I say upgrade it now. We are obviously not upgrading the offensive line before the season starts (and it's doubtful that we will in-season without multiple injuries).

Davis is a a jack-of-multiple-trades, but a master of none.


In other words... Davis is average?

I think that is a very fair assessment. But then let's throw this in the mix. He is average at all the things he does, which gives a balance.... AND, he does it for about 350,000 this year. Kinda hard to pass that up isn't it?

Also, he is 28. This is going to be his 5 th year in teh leage. Fullbacks usually only play about 8 years-- least for the Steelers. So either way, it is time we start breaking in a new FB, because Davis' time is coming soon-- if only because of age.

SunshineMan21
09-02-2009, 03:25 PM
I'm not a fan of Carey Davis because Sean McHugh eats his lunch as a blocking FB (and the coaching staff recognizes this too--look how McHugh supplanted Davis as a lead blocker last year).

If Davis brought something else to the table offensively it might be different, but he just doesn't. I'm not sure where you're drawing the conclusion Davis is a good blocker, but I've never seen him as anything better than adequate, and it seemed clear from watching games that McHugh just had much more strength and explosiveness.

I don't hate Davis by any means--in fact I like the guy--but I think others on the roster are better blockers than he is.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 03:26 PM
His assessment that Davis is a good blocker obviously

I watch the games too and don't see Davis as a good blocker, many would agree

Yes. But do you focus specifically on the FB, and see which assignments he misses...and whether it was his assignment or the lines assigment?

My whole issue is that I think Davis has been doing his job decently-- and been getting blamed for the line's blown assignments.

Fire Haley
09-02-2009, 03:29 PM
That's all Davis can do - block. Well, besides catching little flare passes and getting stopped a yard short of first down every time.

Smashmouth is dead - get over it.

5 WIDE!!!

Steel Head
09-02-2009, 03:31 PM
Yes. But do you focus specifically on the FB, and see which assignments he misses...and whether it was his assignment or the lines assigment?

My whole issue is that I think Davis has been doing his job decently-- and been getting blamed for the line's blown assignments.

Yes. I think we discussed Davis after the second preseason and also had a difference of opinion

Another poster said it best in another thread today where he said Davis gets in the way of a run rather than clearing running space

Hopefully we continue to use David Johnson as a lead blocker

Preacher - if Davis is a good blocker then why did the coaching staff specifically go with McHugh more often towards the end of last year?

Preacher
09-02-2009, 03:33 PM
That's all Davis can do - block. Well, besides catching little flare passes and getting stopped a yard short of first down every time.

Smashmouth is dead - get over it.

5 WIDE!!!


See, (and I know you are being sarcastic)

Here is part of the problem. A bunch here says "Davis can block, but can't do anything else"

A bunch here says, "Davis can do stuff adequetly, but he isn't a good blocker"

That is what makes me think that it is more about our Run game and who can we blame it on than it is Davis' actually body of work. We seem him, we see a tackle happen around where he is, so it automatically must be his fault since he didn't block that guy, even though he kicked out another guy and the pulling guard/Center didn't get to his assignment.

Steeldude
09-02-2009, 03:37 PM
IMO, if davis is cut it's because they believe in summers' potential.

people saying davis is the problem with the pass protection are a little misinformed. there is more to the poor pass blocking than davis.

i wish i could find the post showing some stats and situations/results where mchugh is a better option than davis. it was from another MB, but i cannot remember which one.

steelreserve
09-02-2009, 03:49 PM
To be fair, I don't think that is what he is saying. I think what he is saying is that the hatred for Davis is misplaced because everyone RECOGNIZES the problem with the run game, and they are looking for a place to find the problem... and Davis is an easy target... as is Willie P.

I think the overall problem is much more complex than that. It has to do with using runs regardless of what they achieve to setup other plays down the road. it has to do with converting to a balanced offense and thus, making our line pass block as well as run block. it has to do with us not going out and getting the biggest, baddest bowling ball for a RB because we expect more out of him out of the backfield than just running the ball.

But to THIS thread, i think he is right. Davis is bearing some of the brunt of the frustration simply because he is one of the things that have changed.

To both of you: It sounded like he was saying all the Parker/Davis haters are overreacting because we just don't like their less "smashmouth" style of play. If I took it the wrong way, my bad. I mean, there are certain things about being big and bruising that are going to help either a HB or a FB, no doubt about it. But I've just heard a ton of misinformed crap from people who think if you don't like Parker or Davis it's because they represent change, instead of because of their performance.

"OMG U DONT LIKE PARKER? HES AWESOME & IT MUST JUST BE B/C U MISS BETTIS" or "OMG U DONT LIKE PARKER? HES AWESOME & UR JUST OBSESSED W/ BIG BACKS, U WANT T.J. DUCKETT TO BE THE STARTING RB & HOW WELL WOULD THAT WORK." I guess I assumed it was the same idea this time, only with the fullback position.

Anyway, my point is, I really do think Davis, on his own merits, is not very good, and as with Parker, it has nothing to do with his size or his style. A bigger, more aggressive fullback certainly seems a likely choice for improvement -- but I really don't care if the FB is 5'3" and 150 pounds as long as he can open up holes and do well with the ball when he has it. At least be an option, you know? Basically, I'm just hoping people know enough to understand that the critics aren't just hung up on style so much as results.

Fire Haley
09-02-2009, 03:54 PM
(and I know you are being sarcastic)

You think so, huh?

Cowher had his pets - maybe Tomlin is keeping Carey around as his, I don't know, but I don't see what he brings to the offense.

Steelers are an explosive offensive passing team now - our roster is packed with playmakers, there's no room for a FB-only blocker type.

The Lakelander
09-02-2009, 04:08 PM
You think so, huh?

Cowher had his pets - maybe Tomlin is keeping Carey around as his, I don't know, but I don't see what he brings to the offense.

Steelers are an explosive offensive passing team now - our roster is packed with playmakers, there's no room for a FB-only blocker type.

That's the perfect point in all of this.

When Davis is on the football field, what are we doing?

Passing?

Running?

If it's 3rd down and an obvious passing down, then Mewelde is on the field.

So when is Davis on the field?

He's one less guy the opposing defense needs to be accountable for ... cause he ain't getting the football!

Since he ain't getting the football, what we need when we are "clueing in" the opposing defense is a guy who is going to absolutely railroad a LB or a DE through the hole.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 04:08 PM
To both of you: It sounded like he was saying all the Parker/Davis haters are overreacting because we just don't like their less "smashmouth" style of play. If I took it the wrong way, my bad. I mean, there are certain things about being big and bruising that are going to help either a HB or a FB, no doubt about it. But I've just heard a ton of misinformed crap from people who think if you don't like Parker or Davis it's because they represent change, instead of because of their performance.

Fair enough. But don't you think that is tied into it? The change came about at the same time that the decrease in the run game came about (as well as other things). My contention is that it isn't just about change, but about the fact that some people are over-simplifying the issue, and thus, are a bit nostalgic for what once was. In other words, I would contend that Bettis and Kreider in their primes would have the same effect as Davis and the RB's we had last year, because of the other issues on the line and the fact that games are now called differently. A run play seems to not be called to actually get 3-5 yards anymore. It seems to be called to set up another play down the road... If it gets yards now, great. if not, oh well, we have Ben and the receivers to do the work (that is a little far-fetched, but I think you get the idea).

Anyway, my point is, I really do think Davis, on his own merits, is not very good, and as with Parker, it has nothing to do with his size or his style. A bigger, more aggressive fullback certainly seems a likely choice for improvement -- but I really don't care if the FB is 5'3" and 150 pounds as long as he can open up holes and do well with the ball when he has it. At least be an option, you know? Basically, I'm just hoping people know enough to understand that the critics aren't just hung up on style so much as results.

And we come back to the same argument... that at least in this preseason, Carey Davis was opening up holes.... except when other LB's would come in and fill them and the offensive line was missing THier assignments. I didn't see Davis blow a blocking assignment... (Maybe one if I remember right).

it is this entire notion that Davis doesn't open up holes that I disagree with. If his guy is the guy that needs to be moved for th ehole to open up, i have seen him do it every time pretty much this preseason.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 04:13 PM
You think so, huh?

Cowher had his pets - maybe Tomlin is keeping Carey around as his, I don't know, but I don't see what he brings to the offense.

Steelers are an explosive offensive passing team now - our roster is packed with playmakers, there's no room for a FB-only blocker type.

Actually, yes, I did think so... as you keep posting 5 wide I was taking it as being sarcastic towards this offensive style.

Personally, I am glad that we have left the smashmouth football, as it never got us a SB ring.

Now, i would like to see us be able to run the ball better, but as a offensive PHILOSOPHY, it is dead and gone... and thank goodness. We now have two rings because of it. Balance. That is the answer.

#1 Big Ben Fan
09-02-2009, 04:40 PM
Carey Davis is solid on special teams. He is very good good on the kick coverage teams. I would be for an upgrade over Carey Davis to but until there is one of the roster then he will continue to be on this team.

Frank Summers has shown very little this pre-season due to injury and he headed to the practice squad. I don't see Redman playing FB. McHugh being recently injured doesn't bold well for him especially since Johnson can fill his TE/Hback role.

Like I said when somebody steps up that can play both FB and on special teams then Carey Davis will be replaced. I don't really have an opinion on Davis since I'm more concerned about draft picks like Bruce Davis that are struggling to make the team.

Carey Davis didn't cost us a draft pick. Bruce Davis was a 3rd round pick. I was high on Bruce to but its looking he might not make the team this year.

I just want to say its awesome that people are discussing Carey Davis period. I wonder how many message boards across the NFL fan base can say that their actually talking about their teams starting FB?

I like reading opinions on both side of the fence. We're passionate fans to say the least.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-02-2009, 04:53 PM
Dan Kreider made Ray Lewis his bitch. Davis can't block the current version of Ray Lewis...much less the younger and better version Kreider often pancaked.
.

You are absolutely correct!!!

-Davis got stuffed by Stephen Cooper of the Chargers on a key short down play.
-Same thing happened vs. the Colts as I think Bob Sanders stuffed him
-Also, happened in the Patriots game against Tedy Bruschi
-In the Ravens games vs Ray Lewis and Bart Scott he lost those battles too.

So, I am really not going to anoint Davis as a good blocking FB because he made DeAngelo Hall backpeddle in the preseason and also manage to block more CB's in PRESEASON GAMES against Buffalo and Arizona.

When Carey Davis proves he can lead block on a short yardage rushing attempt and help get a 1st down, I will give him credit. So far he hasnt done that in the reg season the past 2 years. :banging:

I watched tape and rewatched games ALL LAST REGULAR SEASON, and Davis was a poor blocker, Stapleton was weak, Colon was a dominant run blocker and Max Starks was largely inconsistent, Heath Miller was the best blocking TE in the NFL.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 04:54 PM
Yes. I think we discussed Davis after the second preseason and also had a difference of opinion

Another poster said it best in another thread today where he said Davis gets in the way of a run rather than clearing running space

Hopefully we continue to use David Johnson as a lead blocker

Preacher - if Davis is a good blocker then why did the coaching staff specifically go with McHugh more often towards the end of last year?

Very fair question.

As I have said, i wish I had tape on Mchugh as a lead blocker. I remember really liking him in that position. I contend not that Davis is a great fb. But that he is average... and definitely not as bad as people make him out to be here. He does the job.

to answer your question--somewhat out of ignorance until I get to see him again and really focus-- It could be either 1 scheming.... pulling a TE from that position to run as a FBl, or if he lines up as a FB, because McHugh is a better FB. Hey, if that is true, I got no problem with it. I want a GREAT player at every position. Just we have many other players that affect the run that are worse than Davis.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-02-2009, 05:02 PM
as a offensive PHILOSOPHY, it is dead and gone... and thank goodness. We now have two rings because of it. Balance. That is the answer.

Ummmm........that Super Bowl in 2005 was Cowher's team......remember??

That season the Steelers ranked:
#3 in Team Rushing
#4 in Defense (ypg)
#24 in Passing offense.

So I think its safe to say that the Steelers have 6 rings because of that "dead and gone" smashmouth style of offense.........and 1 ring because of a dominant defense and a 22nd ranked offense.

steelreserve
09-02-2009, 05:03 PM
Fair enough. But don't you think that is tied into it? The change came about at the same time that the decrease in the run game came about (as well as other things). My contention is that it isn't just about change, but about the fact that some people are over-simplifying the issue, and thus, are a bit nostalgic for what once was. In other words, I would contend that Bettis and Kreider in their primes would have the same effect as Davis and the RB's we had last year, because of the other issues on the line and the fact that games are now called differently. A run play seems to not be called to actually get 3-5 yards anymore. It seems to be called to set up another play down the road... If it gets yards now, great. if not, oh well, we have Ben and the receivers to do the work (that is a little far-fetched, but I think you get the idea).


Just like with the Parker situation, I think those all contribute, but having the right personnel is always a huge part of success or failure, and you can improve one part independently of another and still do good. Regardless of the line or playcalling, I just flat-out don't think Davis brings much to the table, and I don't think Parker is very good as an every-down back because his weaknesses are a huge liability that way. Maybe replacing those guys isn't going to fix everything, but better players are always going to get better results.

And we come back to the same argument... that at least in this preseason, Carey Davis was opening up holes.... except when other LB's would come in and fill them and the offensive line was missing THier assignments. I didn't see Davis blow a blocking assignment... (Maybe one if I remember right).

it is this entire notion that Davis doesn't open up holes that I disagree with. If his guy is the guy that needs to be moved for th ehole to open up, i have seen him do it every time pretty much this preseason.

Like I said, I haven't seen a lot of what he's done this preseason. Based on last season, I was not impressed, and apparently neither were the coaches if they were bringing in a different guy by the end of the year. If we can help it, I don't want a FB that wins the job by default because no one else has stepped up and done anything worth mentioning. I want to see him win the job by going out and kicking ass every day.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 05:11 PM
Ummmm........that Super Bowl in 2005 was Cowher's team......remember??

That season the Steelers ranked:
#3 in Team Rushing
#4 in Defense (ypg)
#24 in Passing offense.

So I think its safe to say that the Steelers have 6 rings because of that "dead and gone" smashmouth style of offense.........and 1 ring because of a dominant defense and a 22nd ranked offense.

Actually, no.

throughout the playoffs, throughout those playoffs, it was the offense through the AIR that got us on top. Then, Bill took the air out of the ball and we ran the ball thereafter. Stats look lopsided because we sat on the lead and ran ran ran. But it was our ability with Ben, ARE, Hines, etc. that won us the game.

Same is true of the last three of four SB's in the 70's. ESPECIALLY the last two. They both were won through the air. The first one was the only real SMASH MOUTH NOW, SMASH MOUTH FOREVER type of game that we won... and Franco of course was the MVP.

So no, I say we won 1 by smashmouth... and 5 by being balanced.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-02-2009, 05:12 PM
Like I said, I haven't seen a lot of what he's done this preseason.

I have recorded all 3 games and rewatched them. Davis has basically been blocking off-tackle plays and getting an OLB or CB on the edge and turning them, so the back can read the block. Mewelde Moore does a great job of that.

What I havent seen is Davis meet an ILB, head on in the hole and be able to block that ILB so the RB can get yardage. I never saw him do that the past 2 seasons either, but I definately saw Dan Kreider, Jon Witman, Tim Lester, John L. Williams, Merril Hoge, Frank Pollard, Sidney Thornton and just about any other decent blocking RB on the Steelers do it repeatedly.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-02-2009, 05:16 PM
Actually, no.

throughout the playoffs, throughout those playoffs, it was the offense through the AIR that got us on top. Then, Bill took the air out of the ball and we ran the ball thereafter. Stats look lopsided because we sat on the lead and ran ran ran. But it was our ability with Ben, ARE, Hines, etc. that won us the game.

Same is true of the last three of four SB's in the 70's. ESPECIALLY the last two. They both were won through the air. The first one was the only real SMASH MOUTH NOW, SMASH MOUTH FOREVER type of game that we won... and Franco of course was the MVP.

So no, I say we won 1 by smashmouth... and 5 by being balanced.

So you are now saying that the Steelers won games in the regular season by being "a SMASHMOUTH FOOTBALL TEAM", but not in the postseason.

Now..........I question your judgement.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 05:16 PM
Just like with the Parker situation, I think those all contribute, but having the right personnel is always a huge part of success or failure, and you can improve one part independently of another and still do good. Regardless of the line or playcalling, I just flat-out don't think Davis brings much to the table, and I don't think Parker is very good as an every-down back because his weaknesses are a huge liability that way. Maybe replacing those guys isn't going to fix everything, but better players are always going to get better results.

Obviously I agree about bringing in better players. its just my contention that if you want to get a better bang for your buck, replacing The aforementioned lineman will do more than replacing Davis. That is about the gist of my argument.


Like I said, I haven't seen a lot of what he's done this preseason. Based on last season, I was not impressed, and apparently neither were the coaches if they were bringing in a different guy by the end of the year. If we can help it, I don't want a FB that wins the job by default because no one else has stepped up and done anything worth mentioning. I want to see him win the job by going out and kicking ass every day.
And I am looking solely at this preseason's body of work. That has both positives and negatives to it. If he spent time in the gym, film study, etc, then maybe we are looking at a different Davis than last year. However, it maybe that we are not playing against a fully schemed defense as well... and that is a real negative.

I am sure my opinion is going to very throughout the year. But I have just been struck by how different the reality of these last three games have been vs. everyones feelings about him.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 05:19 PM
So you are now saying that the Steelers won games in the regular season by being "a SMASHMOUTH FOOTBALL TEAM", but not in the postseason.

Now..........I question your judgement.

Nope, I am saying that THROUGHOUT the year... and ESPECIALLY in the playoffs, we won by being a balanced team... that could go through the air AND on the ground.

The stats are lopsided because we went through the air and got up on points.,.. and then Cowher took the air out of the ball.

Look at the last two SB's of the 70's and the last two SB's now (seasons)... at how strong our passing game was. Then go back and look at all the AFCCG's (and seasons) we lost and ask this one question... What was our offensive weakness... Running or passing?

it was the pass... because we were truly unbalanced in those years of Cowher. i think he learned balance too late.


BTW... How in the WORLD did you get that I was saying we were smashmouth during the year and then switched in the playoffs? I think you may have misread my post--- EDIT... Sorry , I misread yours.

YES. Smashmouth football does not win SB's anymore. I have gone back and posted the SB stats over and over. It is somethin like 1 team out of the last 15 was "smashmouth" (Ravens). The rest was a balanced offense.

tony hipchest
09-02-2009, 05:27 PM
in carey davis' first year and 1st preseason game (i believe it was the HOF game vs. saints) he made a crushing special teams tackle on a kick return.

the legend was born. he had made several of those nice plays in preseasons and thus earned him a roster spot.

anthony smith was also a preseason ST demon who made his name on one or 2 preseason ST hits.

perhaps fans thought they would be much more than they really are.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-02-2009, 05:33 PM
Preacher, its too easy to categorize the Cowher era as a failure and say the offenses were unbalanced. But I just dont agree......

O'Donnell and Kordell had some good years where the passing game equalled the run game, but in the end it was O'Donnell, Brister, Stewart, Kent Graham, Mike Tomczak, Tommy Maddox, etc that lead to offensive imbalance...........not philosophy.

Fact is that Carey Davis is undersized and is completely inadequate of a lead blocker at the point of attack. He has proven it for 2 seasons and in 3 games of the preseason he has done nothing to prove otherwise.

Davis will again be the FB and be adequate in getting angles on defenders while running off tackle plays, but will not be strong enough to be effective between the tackles.

Here is a comparison that may make sense to you.

Justin Hartwig > Sean Mahan , just as
Dan Kreider> Carey Davis.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 05:43 PM
Preacher, its too easy to categorize the Cowher era as a failure and say the offenses were unbalanced. But I just dont agree......

O'Donnell and Kordell had some good years where the passing game equalled the run game, but in the end it was O'Donnell, Brister, Stewart, Kent Graham, Mike Tomczak, Tommy Maddox, etc that lead to offensive imbalance...........not philosophy.

Fact is that Carey Davis is undersized and is completely inadequate of a lead blocker at the point of attack. He has proven it for 2 seasons and in 3 games of the preseason he has done nothing to prove otherwise.

Davis will again be the FB and be adequate in getting angles on defenders while running off tackle plays, but will not be strong enough to be effective between the tackles.

Here is a comparison that may make sense to you.

Justin Hartwig > Sean Mahan , just as
Dan Kreider> Carey Davis.


Thing is... Davis as lead blocker in this preaseason has done everything asked of him. As I said before, kicked guys out, sealed them off opening the hole. What else do you want? I am just not getting it. All I can come up with is style points. He doesn't run them over.. just pushes them out of the way? ? ??

And furthermore, too my point. It isn't that Davis is the second coming of anything... it is what I said to SteelReserve--

Obviously I agree about bringing in better players. its just my contention that if you want to get a better bang for your buck, replacing The aforementioned lineman will do more than replacing Davis. That is about the gist of my argument.

So your little analogy is out of context and doesn't really make any sense.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-02-2009, 05:50 PM
Thing is... Davis as lead blocker in this preaseason has done everything asked of him. As I said before, kicked guys out, sealed them off opening the hole. What else do you want? I am just not getting it. All I can come up with is style points. He doesn't run them over.. just pushes them out of the way? ? ??

And furthermore, too my point. It isn't that Davis is the second coming of anything... it is what I said to SteelReserve--



So your little analogy is out of context and doesn't really make any sense.

The analogy is based on the fact that Mahan is more athletic and got angles on DT's, but could not handle the big NT's one on one.........but Hartwig is larger and can.

Carey Davis can "seal off" or "kick out" DB's on the edge, but isnt big or strong enough to handle an ILB man on man......but Kreider (and many others) can.

Davis is a weak point of the offense, just like Darnell Stapleton was last year and Mahan was the year before. The frustrating thing with me is that if you aren't getting better, then you are getting worse. The only way the Steelers get better at FB this year, is if David Johnson lines up there.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 05:57 PM
The analogy is based on the fact that Mahan is more athletic and got angles on DT's, but could not handle the big NT's one on one.........but Hartwig is larger and can.

Carey Davis can "seal off" or "kick out" DB's on the edge, but isnt big or strong enough to handle an ILB man on man......but Kreider (and many others) can.

Davis is a weak point of the offense, just like Darnell Stapleton was last year and Mahan was the year before. The frustrating thing with me is that if you aren't getting better, then you are getting worse. The only way the Steelers get better at FB this year, is if David Johnson lines up there.

Really? because the one play I saw Johnson run.. he came up the middle, and literally bounced off the guy in the gap. There is no way he is better.

And, actually, Davis WAS meeting LB's, both inside and outside in the hole.. and sealing them off/knocking them out of the way. Especially in that third game.

You know, I do think there is one true comparison to the Hartwig-Mahan debate.... Scapegoating.

BehindSteelCurtain
09-02-2009, 05:57 PM
He started for an NFL team. What have you done? Started left bench for your JV team?

steelreserve
09-02-2009, 06:07 PM
Obviously I agree about bringing in better players. its just my contention that if you want to get a better bang for your buck, replacing The aforementioned lineman will do more than replacing Davis. That is about the gist of my argument.

I agree that in the grand scheme of things, you're going to get farther with a great offensive line than a great FB. But I think FB is a relatively cheap and easy position to fix -- I mean, to get a good lineman, you'll be spending $6M a year or a first-day draft pick. You can get a good fullback for $1 million or a sixth-round pick.

Think of how much ass we would kick if we had a Mike Alstott or Tom Rathman type guy who could pick up a few hundred total yards besides just blocking. Or a Lorenzo Neal kind of guy who could clear a path like a bowling ball. That's more improvement than picking up one-sixth of a lineman if you ask me.

pancake
09-02-2009, 06:09 PM
Fair question Preacher.

I will try to be just as fair in my reply....For years we ran the same black and blue, three yards and a cloud of dust offense. That offense was predicated on a smash-mouth run game. When many of us think of Steelers Football we think of Tim Lester and Dan Kreider opening holes for the likes of Jerome Bettis.

Though many of us are not outwardly antagonistic towards Coach Arians new Steelers offensive style and in fact appreciate the wins that the coaching staff has brought to our team ...I think that Davis, as a smaller FB, epitomizes what we miss in the Lester/Kreider days. We would LOVE to see the passing game remain a factor but miss the smashmouth running style of the past.

So much of it is probably a romaticized notion that we may draft some big FB or RB that will take us back to those days...(probably why we love to see a John Kuhn or a Frank Summers get a shot with the team)

I think this is the best assessment that you're going to get, Preacher... I do miss the Krider/lester days. I went to the same school as Lester and have met him a couple of times when he would come back to town. He was one of my favorites...

Preacher
09-02-2009, 06:10 PM
I agree that in the grand scheme of things, you're going to get farther with a great offensive line than a great FB. But I think FB is a relatively cheap and easy position to fix -- I mean, to get a good lineman, you'll be spending $6M a year or a first-day draft pick. You can get a good fullback for $1 million or a sixth-round pick.

Think of how much it ass we would kick if we had a Mike Alstott or Tom Rathman type guy who could pick up a few hundred total yards besides just blocking. Or a Lorenzo Neal kind of guy who could clear a path like a bowling ball. That's more improvement than picking up one-sixth of a lineman if you ask me.

But here is where we get into the coaching staffs stated philosophy (a couple years ago... who knows what has changed now) that the FB is a dying position, and what they want now is a cross-bread that can block and also catch passes.

It does make you wonder why McHugh wasn't given more opportunity though as a out and out FB.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 06:13 PM
I think this is the best assessment that you're going to get, Preacher... I do miss the Krider/lester days. I went to the same school as Lester and have met him a couple of times when he would come back to town. He was one of my favorites...


True....

and the funny thing is... I LIKED it when we would line up and dominate other teams with smashmouth football. I just don't like smashmouth as THE DOMINATE philosphy of the offense, which is why I want a balanced offense. In truth, I think the 2005 offense was pretty dang close to perfect in balance. Imagine having that running power we had at that point, with Holmes and Sweed and the rest?!?! :jawdrop:

Take control of the game in the first half. Then pound it in the second half. If we somehow get down a score or two, we have the passing game to come back and win.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-02-2009, 06:18 PM
You know, I do think there is one true comparison to the Hartwig-Mahan debate.... Scapegoating.

:rofl:

Not by me. I objectivey evaluated Hartwig as better than Mahan by the 2nd preseason game of last year.

I also said that Stapleton was weaker than Simmons in the run game, but more agile of a pass protector.....while most were thinking Stapleton was the next big thing.

I also have repeatedly bitched about Starks poor technique and inconsistent play for a 5(now 6) year veteran and only now are others thinking the same.

I call it like I see it and Davis is not a good blocking FB. Neither were any other FB's in the OC's previous stops, so I dont really expect to see one. I would just rather see an H-back like McHugh or Johnson that can block in that spot.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 06:21 PM
:rofl:

Not by me. I objectivey evaluated Hartwig as better than Mahan by the 2nd preseason game of last year.

I also said that Stapleton was weaker than Simmons in the run game, but more agile of a pass protector.....while most were thinking Stapleton was the next big thing.

I also have repeatedly bitched about Starks poor technique and inconsistent play for a 5(now 6) year veteran and only now are others thinking the same.

I call it like I see it and Davis is not a good blocking FB. Neither were any other FB's in the OC's previous stops, so I dont really expect to see one. I would just rather see an H-back like McHugh or Johnson that can block in that spot.

Are you trying to turn this into an Arians sucks thread?!?!?! :rofl:
Check out my last response to SteelReserve...

I think we are probably closer in thought than it may appear.

steelreserve
09-02-2009, 06:24 PM
But here is where we get into the coaching staffs stated philosophy (a couple years ago... who knows what has changed now) that the FB is a dying position, and what they want now is a cross-bread that can block and also catch passes.

It does make you wonder why McHugh wasn't given more opportunity though as a out and out FB.

I think McHugh was limited in that role because he can't carry the ball at all. As in, zero career carries. Even though I thought he was a more effective blocker than Davis, that means he was/is only a temporary solution.

You do hear about FB being a dying position, but it seems to me like the only way it's "dying" is in the amount of attention (e.g number of touches) it gets. You don't have many FBs who are a viable second option to run the ball anymore, that's for sure. But most teams still use lead blockers a hell of a lot, so the position's not going away any time soon. If they can run or catch, that's a bonus. Davis can't do either .. I can't remember a single time he's touched the ball that I've walked away happy.

pancake
09-02-2009, 06:25 PM
True....

and the funny thing is... I LIKED it when we would line up and dominate other teams with smashmouth football. I just don't like smashmouth as THE DOMINATE philosphy of the offense, which is why I want a balanced offense. In truth, I think the 2005 offense was pretty dang close to perfect in balance. Imagine having that running power we had at that point, with Holmes and Sweed and the rest?!?! :jawdrop:

Take control of the game in the first half. Then pound it in the second half. If we somehow get down a score or two, we have the passing game to come back and win.

I am wanting the same thing... Man that would be a perfect offense... :tt:

LVSteelersfan
09-02-2009, 07:46 PM
I just remember seeing a couple plays where Davis got totally turned around and the RB ran into him in that last game. He gets in the way instead of clearing the way. I do not think he is a good blocking FB. We should be able to run it to the right or left with a good FB leading the way instead of trying to keep jamming it up the middle with that lousy Oline. I am just very disappointed that Summers didn't get more time on the field in the preseason to see if he can blast through people like a FB is supposed to. I guess that means we are probably stuck with Davis whether we like it or not. I will root for him if he is still here but will be skeptical unless I see something better from him.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 08:02 PM
I just remember seeing a couple plays where Davis got totally turned around and the RB ran into him in that last game. He gets in the way instead of clearing the way. I do not think he is a good blocking FB. We should be able to run it to the right or left with a good FB leading the way instead of trying to keep jamming it up the middle with that lousy Oline. I am just very disappointed that Summers didn't get more time on the field in the preseason to see if he can blast through people like a FB is supposed to. I guess that means we are probably stuck with Davis whether we like it or not. I will root for him if he is still here but will be skeptical unless I see something better from him.

The last game against the Bills? I didn't see that at all. Could you go look at my breakdown and see which play it was.... that way I can go back and watch it tonight. I am interested in looking at what you saw... because again I didn't see it.

Steel Head
09-02-2009, 08:13 PM
The analogy is based on the fact that Mahan is more athletic and got angles on DT's, but could not handle the big NT's one on one.........but Hartwig is larger and can.

Carey Davis can "seal off" or "kick out" DB's on the edge, but isnt big or strong enough to handle an ILB man on man......but Kreider (and many others) can.

Davis is a weak point of the offense, just like Darnell Stapleton was last year and Mahan was the year before. The frustrating thing with me is that if you aren't getting better, then you are getting worse. The only way the Steelers get better at FB this year, is if David Johnson lines up there.

good post

some people just fail to see how bad players are. like Mahan for example, some people here kept defending him for no reason even though he was god awful on the field

Preacher
09-02-2009, 08:21 PM
good post

some people just fail to see how bad players are. like Mahan for example, some people here kept defending him for no reason even though he was god awful on the field

:chuckle:
tell you what. Enough of this. Go back and watch the last 3 games. Give me the the play and where you think Davis screwed up and lets talk. Otherwise, I have to assume that you are simply jumping on the Davis sucks bandwagon.

Steel Head
09-02-2009, 08:45 PM
:chuckle:
tell you what. Enough of this. Go back and watch the last 3 games. Give me the the play and where you think Davis screwed up and lets talk. Otherwise, I have to assume that you are simply jumping on the Davis sucks bandwagon.

sorry bro. i'm not going to hold your hand through this

wait, are u 1 of the people who thought Mahan was good? lol, this might shed some light on the current subject

fansince'76
09-02-2009, 09:06 PM
some people just fail to see how bad players are. like Mahan for example, some people here kept defending him for no reason even though he was god awful on the field

No, some folks just got tired with Mahan catching ALL the flak for the subpar play of the OL as a whole. Or am I supposed to believe the OL play improved greatly between 2007 and 2008?

devilsdancefloor
09-02-2009, 09:15 PM
My problem with davis is a strong wind from the open end of the stadium seems to knock him down or back. He seems never falls forward for that extra yard. that is so frustrating like someone said he always seems 1/2 yard short of the first down. :noidea:

NJarhead
09-02-2009, 09:29 PM
I don't dislike him, but I'm tired of him consistently being one yard shy of the first down everytime we toss him the ball on third down and he always seems to go down at first contact.

Preacher
09-02-2009, 10:32 PM
sorry bro. i'm not going to hold your hand through this

wait, are u 1 of the people who thought Mahan was good? lol, this might shed some light on the current subject

http://www.forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=38411

http://www.forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=38110

http://www.forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=37855

Like I said. I have done my work.

So... tell me. Just where did he show in any of these games that he was a horrible player? That he sucked? That he wasn't Average?

Cuz after all, that has been my contention. he is an average player, and the third best in run blocking on this team right now excluding receivers.

or are you just parroting what you hear because we aren't getting 5 yards a run now.


Oh, and by the way... Mahan sucked.. just as bad as Hartwig, who was responsible for the most sacks of a center in the league last year, and has problems against runblocking against slants... and LB's cutting through... at least in this preseason.

The coaching staff liked thought they could deal with Hartwig's suckage better than Mahan. :noidea:

In a year or so, it won't matter, because legursky will probably be starting... unless Stapleton steps back in and impresses them all.

So. Are you going to check it out or not?

Preacher
09-02-2009, 10:36 PM
I don't dislike him, but I'm tired of him consistently being one yard shy of the first down everytime we toss him the ball on third down and he always seems to go down at first contact.


yeah. He wasn't thrown to this preaseason... so I had no chance to watch that. I do remember him being brought down in the playoffs... but again, I haven't paid a lot of attention to the FB until this spring.

Actually, I didn't start breaking down games like this until the playoffs last year, and that was more concerning the opposing teams.

That is why I was SO shocked at what I was actually seeing concerning Davis.

From what I was reading around here, I was expecting him to get touched by someone's pinky and then go down and flop around. Come to find out... he is a pretty good blocker.... if anyone actually cares to watch him and figure out which assignment was actually his.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-03-2009, 12:06 AM
Like I said. I have done my work....



The coaching staff liked thought they could deal with Hartwig's suckage better than Mahan. :noidea:



Preacher, I applaud you for doing your work on the 3 preseason games. I just wish that you would have done your work last year during the regular season on Hartwig, because I did and he wasnt bad at all.

If you dont believe me, then maybe you should trust the Steeler Coaches:

Offensive coordinator Bruce Arians said Hartwig has been the team's most consistent offensive lineman.

"He's been playing outstanding," Arians said.

Still, the Steelers won't expect Hartwig to handle Williams by himself.

"Very few people block him one-on-one," Tomlin said of Williams. "We won't ask Justin to do that."
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08320/928171-66.stm#ixzz0Q16FaaW3

And if you watched the Steelers defeat the Chargers in the postseason, you would see that Hartwig handled Williams quite well. :thumbsup: As for giving up 6.5 sacks .....in your own preseason analysis of plays, you comment on Starks getting beat, but I dont think he gave up sacks on those plays.........so is Starks suddenly good just because he doesnt have "sacks allowed statistics"?

If you would have broke down each game last season like I did, you would see that Hartwig was indeed the most consistent. Colon the most dominant, Stapleton the weakest, Kemo the most often looked lost and Starks, by far the most inconsistent.

Preacher
09-03-2009, 12:18 AM
Preacher, I applaud you for doing your work on the 3 preseason games. I just wish that you would have done your work last year during the regular season on Hartwig, because I did and he wasnt bad at all.

If you dont believe me, then maybe you should trust the Steeler Coaches:

Offensive coordinator Bruce Arians said Hartwig has been the team's most consistent offensive lineman.

"He's been playing outstanding," Arians said.

Still, the Steelers won't expect Hartwig to handle Williams by himself.

"Very few people block him one-on-one," Tomlin said of Williams. "We won't ask Justin to do that."
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08320/928171-66.stm#ixzz0Q16FaaW3

And if you watched the Steelers defeat the Chargers in the postseason, you would see that Hartwig handled Williams quite well. :thumbsup: As for giving up 6.5 sacks .....in your own preseason analysis of plays, you comment on Starks getting beat, but I dont think he gave up sacks on those plays.........so is Starks suddenly good just because he doesnt have "sacks allowed statistics"?

If you would have broke down each game last season like I did, you would see that Hartwig was indeed the most consistent. Colon the most dominant, Stapleton the weakest, Kemo the most often looked lost and Starks, by far the most inconsistent.


I have readily admitted that it was only the preseason that i judged...

However, over that period of time, I have found that Colon is both the most dominant and the most consistant... maybe this is his year to take the BIG step. Sure hope so. Essex looks like he can do it, but just hasn't done it enough to keep doing it right... (if that makes sense). Hartwig for some reason as I have said, is fine at point of attack. I gave him props for a play where he did about a 180 and sealed off a block. But when the LBs start slashing through.. Hartwig just can't stop them. He got completely used on a spin move in the Washington game that he really should have stopped. Kemo is doing decent.. the recent I WOULD want to keep Hartwig is that Kemo and Hartwig seem to play decently together. Kemo still looks a bit lost at times. Starks---well, is starks.

I do think Legurs. will be an upgrade at center... and if we can pick up a LT, we'd be doing well... which is why I keep thinking that I would like to see Hartwig tried at RG and Essex at LT. He seems to be faster and smoother than Starks.

BTW... You DO know the post you quoted wasn't directed at you right? You and I will disagree, but I KNOW its because we simply disagree. I think some others are actually disagreeing just because they saw a few plays of his and thought. DANG...he sucks. And once that gets stuck in the mind... good lucking changing it.

Again, that is why i was so shocked this year when I did watch them like that. Cause what I THOUGHT I was seeing with Davis and what I was seeing turned out to be two different things.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-03-2009, 12:27 AM
Preach, I know nothing was entirely directed at me and we are all cool.

I dont think Colon is taking a big step, I think he took it last year, but most just see a few false start penalties and dont appreciate good O line play.

I also think that Essex is an upgrade over Stapleton, but he seems to be a bit stiff and doesnt get low enough to get under the D lineman. I think he is a better OT.

Legursky is big, strong and works hard, but looks like he is trying too hard to impress and makes technique errors. He is a better athlete than Hartwig, but looks like a raw rookie. I think Hartwig looks like a seasoned veteran with heavier feet than "The Big Legursky".

After its all said and done, Davis is still a weak link, but the BA offenses have never required a strong FB and its why I dont really expect to see one. I also dont expect to see much conversion of 3rd and short on the ground, but rather expect passes to Miller and Ward to convert.

Steeldude
09-03-2009, 12:42 AM
http://www.forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=38411

http://www.forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=38110

http://www.forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=37855

Like I said. I have done my work.

So... tell me. Just where did he show in any of these games that he was a horrible player? That he sucked? That he wasn't Average?

Cuz after all, that has been my contention. he is an average player, and the third best in run blocking on this team right now excluding receivers.

or are you just parroting what you hear because we aren't getting 5 yards a run now.


Oh, and by the way... Mahan sucked.. just as bad as Hartwig, who was responsible for the most sacks of a center in the league last year, and has problems against runblocking against slants... and LB's cutting through... at least in this preseason.

The coaching staff liked thought they could deal with Hartwig's suckage better than Mahan. :noidea:

In a year or so, it won't matter, because legursky will probably be starting... unless Stapleton steps back in and impresses them all.

So. Are you going to check it out or not?

preacher, you aren't going to get much out of steel head. his comment, "sorry bro. i'm not going to hold your hand through this", is about the best you can expect in terms of backing his argument/claims. basically he just spews what he heard from someone else.

Preacher
09-03-2009, 12:49 AM
Preach, I know nothing was entirely directed at me and we are all cool.

I dont think Colon is taking a big step, I think he took it last year, but most just see a few false start penalties and dont appreciate good O line play.

I also think that Essex is an upgrade over Stapleton, but he seems to be a bit stiff and doesnt get low enough to get under the D lineman. I think he is a better OT.

Legursky is big, strong and works hard, but looks like he is trying too hard to impress and makes technique errors. He is a better athlete than Hartwig, but looks like a raw rookie. I think Hartwig looks like a seasoned veteran with heavier feet than "The Big Legursky".

After its all said and done, Davis is still a weak link, but the BA offenses have never required a strong FB and its why I dont really expect to see one. I also dont expect to see much conversion of 3rd and short on the ground, but rather expect passes to Miller and Ward to convert.

Funny thing. While I was having dinner, I was thinking about your specific comment on this in another thread (yeah.. you can tell the season is starting right? :laughing:) It hit me just how true your statement is, and why. In his system, the FB is used as much in a passing scheme as a run scheme it seems. So, to have a full back that can do both VERY well, you basically have another TE. Hence, McHugh. HOWEVER, to have them be VERY Good... means that they are going to have to pay lost of money. Yet, in this scheme, that money gets spread out to 4 different receivers... plus a RB and QB. So they don't have the money to keep that good of a guy around, which is why you probably will never get a top quality FB that can play in this system to actually play here.

So what are we left with? Grooming one. COME ON TANK! :chuckle:

Steelers & I
09-03-2009, 01:27 AM
I would say that my problem with Carey Davis is the "tweener" billing.

During the pre-season games a couple of years ago when Davis was given many opportunities at RB, I always thought that he looked more like a FB carrying the ball.

Now that his role is that of a FB, I believe that his playing style looks more like that of a RB trying to execute the duties of FB.

That's the best way that I can explain my beef with Davis. He just appears to be playing "SOMEWHAT out of position" whether he's blocking or carrying the ball.

Preacher
09-03-2009, 04:02 AM
It's as simple as this. I watch the same tape and disagree with your assessment of the results. I see him meet defenders in the hole and get no push. I see our RBs have look fo ra cut back because there was no lane behind the FB. I see a FB easily out weighed and out muscled by a lot of LBers.

Ok. Next time you watch the tape. Let me know the play. Because as I have said, I have seen him get push or seal off guys (corner blocks just have to seal a guy off).

I think the closer people look, the more they will find things that they are surprised about him. That is all. An average FB.

Preacher
09-03-2009, 04:09 AM
I thought you made the argument earlier that people were wrong for down grading Davis on his play in the passing game?
And now you say Arians system requires a good pass catch FB not a monster blocker. I really don't see Davis doing either of these things that well.

And to make a pay argument is a failure. Name one FB in the league that is breaking the bank. I don't think we are so cash strapped we couldn't have a good FB on the roster.

No. You are stepping into the middle of a much larger discussion between me and El-Gonz that actually goes across two current threads and back about 2 years.

But as to your point. I argue that he is a better blocker than people give him credit. If you read the thread, I said I didn't have a chance to WATCH him in the passing game this preseason because he didn't participate like that in the preseason. Try reading the entire thread... and if you are referring to my FIRST post, I was saying that they took ONE GAME and started making assumptions.

Now, I am REPLYING to El-Gonz about the Arians system, which DOES use the FB as a receiver as much as a full back. However, what we were hearing here was that his BLOCKING SUCKED. I was out to disprove that... that it was average.

As to the pay... May I suggest you go back and read it AGAIN... as it was part of a DISCUSSION concerning Arians SYSTEM, not necessarily Davis.

lamberts-lost-tooth
09-03-2009, 05:49 AM
His assessment that Davis is a good blocker obviously

I watch the games too and don't see Davis as a good blocker, many would agree

You watched a game and didnt like what you saw and dont think he is a good blocker. I would agree but..that is an opinion..not a fact.

mmalone
09-03-2009, 07:52 AM
Davis is fine... Hes a 225lb tailback.. We have 6 of these guys.

We need a 247lb FB that blocks, right now Summers is all we have so play him.

BubbyBrister
09-03-2009, 08:12 AM
Tons of good posts in this thread, however I do not currently have time to read them all. I did read the first 3 pages.

My reason for not liking him/my thoughts behind others is this:

Kreider was an "underdog" fan favorite. People liked him, and he represented what we wanted Steeler football to be. When Kreider got the ball, or a pass thrown his way, I was as excited as I could get that day during the game b/c it was such a rare thing that you could just imagine how much he would be smiling/enjoying it (similar to an offensive lineman recovering a fumble and running 10 yards for the TD). The guys that create TD's all season long, but never get to get one themselves.

My cousin was an all-conference college lineman and he recovered a fumble once and got to score, and he had a dance planned out and everything for just such an occasion b/c when it happens, you want to do it right and enjoy it.

We let Kreider go b/c Davis has better hands out of the backfield. Kreider was easily the better blocker. However, when Davis has been given the ball, he has done jack with it and his contributions without the ball are far less than Kreider's were.

Davis' offensive production that Kreider would have been unable to match according to Mr. Arians/decision makers.

2008 Totals:
Rushing: 12 attempts for 35 yards (1 11 yarder, so...11 attempts for the other 24 yards)
Receiving: 5 receptions for 27 yards (1 14 yarder, so 4 for the other 13)

Oh...and 1 of those rushes or receptions was a fumble...the stats didn't specify which. So, that's a 1 in 17 chance of fumbling (albeit based on a very small sample size).

If you look at Kreider's stats with the Steelers, 2007 wasn't that great, however his offensive numbers EASILY match up to if not surpass Davis', and throw in his blocking skills, and VOILA! Davis hate.

I forgot Kreider's 4 kick returns for a total of 47 yards (11.75 average!) between 2002 & 2003:chuckle:

Preacher
09-03-2009, 07:09 PM
Tons of good posts in this thread, however I do not currently have time to read them all. I did read the first 3 pages.

My reason for not liking him/my thoughts behind others is this:

Kreider was an "underdog" fan favorite. People liked him, and he represented what we wanted Steeler football to be. When Kreider got the ball, or a pass thrown his way, I was as excited as I could get that day during the game b/c it was such a rare thing that you could just imagine how much he would be smiling/enjoying it (similar to an offensive lineman recovering a fumble and running 10 yards for the TD). The guys that create TD's all season long, but never get to get one themselves.

My cousin was an all-conference college lineman and he recovered a fumble once and got to score, and he had a dance planned out and everything for just such an occasion b/c when it happens, you want to do it right and enjoy it.

We let Kreider go b/c Davis has better hands out of the backfield. Kreider was easily the better blocker. However, when Davis has been given the ball, he has done jack with it and his contributions without the ball are far less than Kreider's were.

Davis' offensive production that Kreider would have been unable to match according to Mr. Arians/decision makers.

2008 Totals:
Rushing: 12 attempts for 35 yards (1 11 yarder, so...11 attempts for the other 24 yards)
Receiving: 5 receptions for 27 yards (1 14 yarder, so 4 for the other 13)

Oh...and 1 of those rushes or receptions was a fumble...the stats didn't specify which. So, that's a 1 in 17 chance of fumbling (albeit based on a very small sample size).

If you look at Kreider's stats with the Steelers, 2007 wasn't that great, however his offensive numbers EASILY match up to if not surpass Davis', and throw in his blocking skills, and VOILA! Davis hate.

I forgot Kreider's 4 kick returns for a total of 47 yards (11.75 average!) between 2002 & 2003:chuckle:

Let me refer you to a previous post. I see what you are saying about last year and Kreiders numbers... also how it could lead to Davis hate. But let's look at the overall numbers... which is the previous post.

S

Dan Kreider--Career 9 years (through 2008).
5-11 255 pounds. 60 catches-471 yards 7.9 average 2 TDs Rushing: 32 attempts 144 yards, 2 TD's4.5 average.

Tim Lester-- Career 8 years, 4 with Pit.
5-10 233 pounds. 47 catches-331 yards 7.0 average 0 TDS. Rushing 33 attempts 126 yards 2 TD's 3.8 average.

Carey Davis-2 seasons (of actual playing time. Three other seasons no playing time)
5-10 225 pounds. 17 catches 76 yards 4.5 average 0 TDs. Rushing 29 attempts 103 yards 0 TD's 4.5 average.



So for the career, Davis has the same rushing average as Kreider. He has a lower YPC average, and no TD's. BUt again, that is 3 years against 9 years.

I keep coming back to the same point. Davis seems to be average in every category. Yet people hate him.

That's what you are saying...kinda, except that IMO, Davis is being blamed a bit more for things that are out of his control.


I sure am hoping for the tank to show something!

BubbyBrister
09-03-2009, 07:27 PM
I keep coming back to the same point. Davis seems to be average in every category. Yet people hate him.

That's what you are saying...kinda, except that IMO, Davis is being blamed a bit more for things that are out of his control.


I sure am hoping for the tank to show something!

Agreed on the tank. As soon as we drafted him I was hoping he'd put Davis off the team.

And yes, he is just an average/below average player at everything who replaced a guy who was below average with the ball, but an AMAZING lead blocker. I guess it probably helps our opinion of Kreider that he had the Bus running behind him.

Preacher
09-04-2009, 01:44 AM
Agreed on the tank. As soon as we drafted him I was hoping he'd put Davis off the team.

And yes, he is just an average/below average player at everything who replaced a guy who was below average with the ball, but an AMAZING lead blocker. I guess it probably helps our opinion of Kreider that he had the Bus running behind him.

Yep.

And also that the entire offensive philosophy changed the year after Bettis retired.

CaliStillersFan
09-04-2009, 02:00 AM
My only input on the 2 FB's is that Summers is much better in short yardage situations in Madden 10 than Davis. LMAO Too bad that means absolutely nothing in real football.

The running game did pick up with McHugh leading the way last season, but I think that had more to do with the offensive line starting to play better as the season progressed.

Preacher
09-04-2009, 02:02 AM
My only input on the 2 FB's is that Summers is much better in short yardage situations in Madden 10 than Davis. LMAO Too bad that means absolutely nothing in real football.

The running game did pick up with McHugh leading the way last season, but I think that had more to do with the offensive line starting to play better as the season progressed.

:laughing: Madden 2010.

I think you are right. Though McHugh did seem to be stronger. Heck, I would be happy if McHugh was made the full time FB. He can catch and block... though I don't know about his running ability.

CaliStillersFan
09-04-2009, 02:29 AM
I'll go for the better blocker. We have so many weapons on offense this year, do we really need our FB to run the ball? Between Ward, Holmes, McDonald, Sweed and Miller, I think Big Ben is going to have a huge year and we are going to see a much different Steelers offense than we're used to.

Steelers & I
09-04-2009, 02:46 AM
My only input on the 2 FB's is that Summers is much better in short yardage situations in Madden 10 than Davis. LMAO Too bad that means absolutely nothing in real football.

The running game did pick up with McHugh leading the way last season, but I think that had more to do with the offensive line starting to play better as the season progressed.


Summers actually blows on Madden 2010. His overall ranking is something like 57 out of a possible 99. So on Madden, I'll take Davis all day and night over Summers.

CaliStillersFan
09-04-2009, 03:17 AM
Yeah but he has a high truck value, which works nicely on 3 and inches. ;)

Steelers & I
09-04-2009, 04:04 AM
Yeah but he has a high truck value, which works nicely on 3 and inches. ;)

Lol, I'll give him a shot one time and see what he's got.:banging:

Rek
09-04-2009, 10:28 AM
Because he is a shitty fullback and his blocking abilities can be duplicated by either one of our starting tight ends or rookies.

Preacher
09-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Because he is a shitty fullback and his blocking abilities can be duplicated by either one of our starting tight ends or rookies.

Sigh. My point to this entire thing was that as I was breaking down teh games... that ISNT what I saw. Not that he was great, but average.

These kind of statements are pretty much all I see, with a few exceptions. I was HOPING some would go back and re-look at games they had and break them down... since I only have the preseason games on tape.

But it may not be worth it now. . . as Redmon may have just bumped him off the team.

Preacher
09-04-2009, 03:05 PM
Mods---

If the report is true, then this thread can probably be closed...

Steel Head
09-04-2009, 03:06 PM
Mods---

If the report is true, then this thread can probably be closed...

guess Tomlin doesn't agree with your "analysis"

:chuckle:

Preacher
09-04-2009, 04:57 PM
guess Tomlin doesn't agree with your "analysis"

:chuckle:

No.

My analysis was that he was an average back. I guess Tomlin thinks there are bigger contributers to the team than an average FB.

cubanstogie
09-04-2009, 05:10 PM
No.

My analysis was that he was an average back. I guess Tomlin thinks there are bigger contributers to the team than an average FB.

I was never fond of Davis and his many 3rd and 1 rushes or receptions for negative or zero yardage. I agree with you though, he is average and to replace him at FB , there has to be someone better to replace him with. I personally hope Tank is the man, he must have proved it in practice or I missed when he proved it in preseason but I am still happy to get rid of Davis. Besides Colon and his false starts, not lining up on scrimmage and other blunders, I seemed to find myself yelling at Davis the most for lack of yards after being hit.

Steel Head
09-04-2009, 05:28 PM
No.

My analysis was that he was an average back. I guess Tomlin thinks there are bigger contributers to the team than an average FB.

Yeah, I actually thought they would keep him. He is good on special teams

But i stick to my assessment that he is not a good lead-blocker out of the backfield

not a big loss

Preacher
09-04-2009, 05:58 PM
Yeah, I actually thought they would keep him. He is good on special teams

But i stick to my assessment that he is not a good lead-blocker out of the backfield

not a big loss

I thought they would keep him simply because he is cheap, in teh last year of his contract, and could do a few different things... including special teams. Basically, I thought he would hold the position for a year to allow The Tank to develop.

As I have said, he was a decent blocker. Did what was asked. Not a road grader. I do truly think that the staff just thinks they have someone else that can contribute more to this team at their position than Davis-and cut Davis because they were afraid of losing the Tank in waivers. Because the Tank sure didn't beat him out THIS year. Next year, i think he may have.

Fire Haley
09-04-2009, 06:22 PM
I don't see what he brings to the offense.

Steelers are an explosive offensive passing team now - our roster is packed with playmakers, there's no room for a FB-only blocker type.


so I got the Carey Davis one right too


Yes - I'm keeping score

Cheppy
09-05-2009, 09:43 PM
Because I just don't see any reason why this guy should be cut.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a45/77717/2112242.jpg

+All of the promising DB's & Stefan Logan

He is doing very well.

He was mediocre at best. And to take it a step further, in the limited playing time he had Sean McHugh did a better job of blocking than he did.

Cheppy
09-05-2009, 10:18 PM
To elaborate, I think from your original post you're not taking into account all of the other quality players that Tomlin had to evaluate. In particular the DB's like Mundy, Lewis & Burnett.

Obviously by cutting Davis Tomlin feels that Summers can do his job just as well if not better. (i'm thinking the latter)

Couple that with with the players I mentioned already and Bob's your uncle.

Plus I think it's clear that they feel said players can contibute significantly on special teams. If they didn't then I doubt that Anthony Madison would've gotten a pink slip.

Preacher
09-06-2009, 01:12 AM
If the Tank didn't beat him out this year, why would they worry about waivers on a late round draft pick? Sounds like some back peddling to me.

:rolleyes:

It really is sad when the answer to your post is actually in the post you quote.

It shows that you didnt really read it and instead, wanted to try puff up your self -e-steam a bit.

Preacher
09-06-2009, 01:17 AM
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a45/77717/2112242.jpg

+All of the promising DB's & Stefan Logan



He was mediocre at best. And to take it a step further, in the limited playing time he had Sean McHugh did a better job of blocking than he did.

First... Mediocre is about right.. I keep saying he was decent. Average. He did what was asked of him, but nothing spectacular.
See... What gets me though is McHugh is out for the year. I didnt think the Tank showed much in what I saw... making some mistakes. I thought he wasnt ready this year... probably next. However, I have heard from some others that he REALLY showed a lot in camp and practice.

Davis was gone next year anyways as his contract was up. I am just a little surprised they left the FB spot to all rookies, since McHugh is gone for the year... AND since Davis was running with the first team all camp. does that make sense to you? I would think they would have ran Frank the Tank with the first team more to give him a feel of game speed with the first string.

Preacher
09-06-2009, 01:20 AM
To elaborate, I think from your original post you're not taking into account all of the other quality players that Tomlin had to evaluate. In particular the DB's like Mundy, Lewis & Burnett.

Obviously by cutting Davis Tomlin feels that Summers can do his job just as well if not better. (i'm thinking the latter)

Couple that with with the players I mentioned already and Bob's your uncle.

Plus I think it's clear that they feel said players can contibute significantly on special teams. If they didn't then I doubt that Anthony Madison would've gotten a pink slip.

I wonder just how true this is... if Davis was slipping on special teams, and we have a stud returner now... are we betting on Logan breaking a few? Id probably have to say yes.

MasterOfPuppets
09-06-2009, 01:23 AM
I would think they would have ran Frank the Tank with the first team more to give him a feel of game speed with the first string.

i thought the same thing about ziggy.... did he even get any reps with the 2nd string ??? :noidea:

Preacher
09-06-2009, 01:26 AM
i thought the same thing about ziggy.... did he even get any reps with the 2nd string ??? :noidea:

Yeah... that's part of my confusion here. For Ziggy, he had all starters in front of him, so I can understand it. But if they were planning to NOT keep Davis... then why not let Tank run?

The ONLY possible thing I can think of is that they think he is going to be SO GOOD that they didn't want to give any tape on him... and that idea is out beyond ludicrous...

MasterOfPuppets
09-06-2009, 01:37 AM
Yeah... that's part of my confusion here. For Ziggy, he had all starters in front of him, so I can understand it. But if they were planning to NOT keep Davis... then why not let Tank run?

The ONLY possible thing I can think of is that they think he is going to be SO GOOD that they didn't want to give any tape on him... and that idea is out beyond ludicrous...
i just thought with all the training camp hype about him, he'd at least get some reps beside hoke against 2nd stringers...

Preacher
09-06-2009, 01:59 AM
i just thought with all the training camp hype about him, he'd at least get some reps beside hoke against 2nd stringers...

Too true.

Maybe they were just waiting to inflict him on the league in the real games. :chuckle:

steelreserve
09-06-2009, 04:16 AM
Too true.

Maybe they were just waiting to inflict him on the league in the real games. :chuckle:

I think Hood will actually make our defense worse by sacking the quarterback and giving the opposing offense a longer field to work with.

Cheppy
09-06-2009, 10:38 AM
AND since Davis was running with the first team all camp. does that make sense to you?

Yeah I don't know. Hasn't theTank been hurt?

OneForTheToe
09-06-2009, 11:02 AM
I think Hood will actually make our defense worse by sacking the quarterback and giving the opposing offense a longer field to work with.

:thumbsup:

Steelers & I
09-06-2009, 11:34 AM
Yeah... that's part of my confusion here. For Ziggy, he had all starters in front of him, so I can understand it. But if they were planning to NOT keep Davis... then why not let Tank run?

The ONLY possible thing I can think of is that they think he is going to be SO GOOD that they didn't want to give any tape on him... and that idea is out beyond ludicrous...

The front office always knows best Preacher, you're fully aware of that. :flap:

Steel Head
09-06-2009, 12:00 PM
You all have to remember that we only got to see Summers in a couple preseason games whereas the coaching staff got to see him every day in practice

Also, Carey Davis is not an average FB. He is well below average and in fact sucks. Other teams cut FB's that were a lot better than him

Preacher
09-30-2009, 02:25 PM
Well, with Carey Davis being resigned... I have a feeling there will be a lot of comments about him come next Sunday afternoon... good or bad.

Figured I might as well bump this thread now! :chuckle:

LVSteelersfan
09-30-2009, 03:07 PM
Summers was obviously not ready. Not sure if that is what got him put on IR or not. Davis knows the plays and has been here. Although I don't like him (obviously the 3 or 4 teams he tried out for thought he sucked too) he is all we have. So I am wishing him well. Heath Miller tried it at fullback last week on at least one play and that went nowhere either.

Rek
09-30-2009, 03:20 PM
Carey Davis. Noun. Pitiful example of a fullback with average blocking skills and even worse hands.

steelreserve
09-30-2009, 03:28 PM
I don't see what difference this makes at all anymore. If you thought we didn't use a fullback much last year ... I think I've seen one on, like, two plays this entire season so far.

Preacher
09-30-2009, 04:11 PM
I don't see what difference this makes at all anymore. If you thought we didn't use a fullback much last year ... I think I've seen one on, like, two plays this entire season so far.

No, the first game we used one on a number of plays, 6? 7? More? Something like that. The FB has been in there more than in the last couple years. The problem is, he's been lost in the backfield.

Heck, I even saw us run from a full house!!! When was the last time you saw that in a non-goal line play?

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-30-2009, 04:17 PM
. Heath Miller tried it at fullback last week on at least one play and that went nowhere either.

I actually liked that flexibility and blocking ability by Miller. When Johnson went down, Miller became the FB and Ramon Foster became the extra TE. :thumbsup:

The one thing I notice about our O line is that they dont drive defenders downfield. They seem to get to an angle on the defender and try to wall them off to create a seam. I think our O line tries to turn the D-lineman, then drive block, while others like the Ravens and Dolphins look to drive then turn the defender.

I'm beginning to think this is the final season for Coach Z....experienced FB or not.

steelreserve
09-30-2009, 04:50 PM
Heck, I even saw us run from a full house!!! When was the last time you saw that in a non-goal line play?

In a game of Madden like a year ago. Yes, I remember that.

... wait. The coaches actually tried something in a real game that worked in Madden? Does that mean they're instantly full of shit? Or is it just some kind of inexplicable paradox.

Preacher
09-30-2009, 04:54 PM
In a game of Madden like a year ago. Yes, I remember that.

... wait. The coaches actually tried something in a real game that worked in Madden? Does that mean they're instantly full of shit? Or is it just some kind of inexplicable paradox.

Probably neither-- fallacy of similarity.

tony hipchest
09-30-2009, 05:54 PM
Heath Miller tried it at fullback last week on at least one play and that went nowhere either.on the one play highlighted on playbook (w/heath and moore in the backfield) they both picked up their assignments and ben was sacked by the single defender splitting a kemoeatu/hartwig double team. :doh:

Preacher
09-30-2009, 07:42 PM
on the one play highlighted on playbook (w/heath and moore in the backfield) they both picked up their assignments and ben was sacked by the single defender splitting a kemoeatu/hartwig double team. :doh:
:laughing:

Not touching that one with a ten foot pole.