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BlastFurnace
09-09-2009, 10:18 AM
I have heard this on ESPN 1250 this morning (Bouchette was on the Stan & Guy Show on ESPN) that there is a disconnect between the front office and the coaching staff.

The biggest one that they mentioned is the disagreement between the two regarding the OT's on the team. The FO believed that Starks was a keeper. The coaching staff did not. Max got the Franchise Tag twice and eventually got the money.

The FO does not believe that Colon is necessarily the answer at RT, but the coaching staff believes that Colon is the best RT in the league. Colon hasn't been extended yet.

Bouchette even alluded to that there might be some of that going on between the FO and the Coaching staff regarding Willie Parker.

I don't know if there is a problem between the two, but as we all know, if there is some smoke, there is some truth to it. I would hate to see the Steelers FO brass dictate anything to the coaching staff. No, I don't believe they are pulling a Jerry Jones, but I would hope that there would be agreement between the two.

atlsteelers
09-09-2009, 10:28 AM
supposely the FO wanted to get Reed signed to a long term deal but the coaches wanted to resign keisel.

i am sure every team has many disagreements about who to sign, to keep, or cut and i am sure there are always disagreements between the staff and FO

fansince'76
09-09-2009, 10:30 AM
Bouchette is also the one who blew the "rift" between Ben and Hines completely out of proportion after Ben said he wanted a tall WR, as I recall.

HometownGal
09-09-2009, 10:44 AM
Bouchette is also the one who blew the "rift" between Ben and Hines completely out of proportion after Ben said he wanted a tall WR, as I recall.

You're absolutely right. Bouchette just LOVES drama and though there may be an itty bitty bit of truth to these rumors, I'm sure Mr. Drama King will put his spin on it. :rolleyes:

Remember folks - AJ II is now pretty much calling the shots and as I've mentioned numerous times on this board - he is a ruthless businessman/attorney. I wouldn't put it past him to attempt to use his clout to try and manhandle the coaching staff, which his Dad and Grandfather would vehemently abhor. I really wish Dan was still the boss.

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 10:47 AM
I have heard this on ESPN 1250 this morning (Bouchette was on the Stan & Guy Show on ESPN) that there is a disconnect between the front office and the coaching staff.

The biggest one that they mentioned is the disagreement between the two regarding the OT's on the team. The FO believed that Starks was a keeper. The coaching staff did not. Max got the Franchise Tag twice and eventually got the money.

The FO does not believe that Colon is necessarily the answer at RT, but the coaching staff believes that Colon is the best RT in the league. Colon hasn't been extended yet.

Bouchette even alluded to that there might be some of that going on between the FO and the Coaching staff regarding Willie Parker.

I don't know if there is a problem between the two, but as we all know, if there is some smoke, there is some truth to it. I would hate to see the Steelers FO brass dictate anything to the coaching staff. No, I don't believe they are pulling a Jerry Jones, but I would hope that there would be agreement between the two.

Well, I know which side I'm on here. The FO. I'm not a fan of our HC or OC, mainly due to the OL, and I think that Starks was a decent RT and Colon is worthless. They need to let Colon walk or slide inside to G and draft a real LT and move Starks back to RT. Then all we'd have to do is replace on OG, unless Urbik or Foster was going to be worthwhile.

We also know that the FO is the one that put together all these great teams we've had, including both SB winners. The current coaching staff did next to nothing for that.

HometownGal
09-09-2009, 10:50 AM
Well, I know which side I'm on here. The FO. I'm not a fan of our HC or OC, mainly due to the OL, and I think that Starks was a decent RT and Colon is worthless. They need to let Colon walk or slide inside to G and draft a real LT and move Starks back to RT. Then all we'd have to do is replace on OG, unless Urbik or Foster was going to be worthwhile.

We also know that the FO is the one that put together all these great teams we've had, including both SB winners. The current coaching staff did next to nothing for that.

WOW. Just freakin WOW! :jawdrop: :shake02: All I can post in response to that is . . .

http://www.ventriloquistcentral.com/ventriloquism-tribute/ventriloquist-figure-makers/curtis.jpg

Youngstown Steeler
09-09-2009, 10:50 AM
If I remember correctly, Cowher and AJ II didn't see eye to eye. I believe it was to the point that Bill wouldn't shake his hand after the super bowl.

fansince'76
09-09-2009, 10:53 AM
We also know that the FO is the one that put together all these great teams we've had, including both SB winners. The current coaching staff did next to nothing for that.

If that's the case, why even bother having a coaching staff?

BlastFurnace
09-09-2009, 11:00 AM
Well, I know which side I'm on here. The FO. I'm not a fan of our HC or OC, mainly due to the OL, and I think that Starks was a decent RT and Colon is worthless. They need to let Colon walk or slide inside to G and draft a real LT and move Starks back to RT. Then all we'd have to do is replace on OG, unless Urbik or Foster was going to be worthwhile.

We also know that the FO is the one that put together all these great teams we've had, including both SB winners. The current coaching staff did next to nothing for that.

You can't be serious. Really...you must be joking.

Put Tomlin on the open market and he gets about 20 offers within 48 hours.

mmalone
09-09-2009, 11:05 AM
Well game one is in a day... so the OC, OL Coach and FO have to stick together now.

I will have to say that the FO probably expects the OL Coach and the OC to coach these million dollar talents into a working and viable OL... This may be creating some tension....

we can blame the players, the OL, the QB, the OC, the OL Coach, the FO... the play calling, BUT if it is execution of the plays....

Someone is going to take a hit if the offense doesnt get out of the bottom half of the league in overall run and pass effectiveness.

and guess what, it wont be the FO.

msafford
09-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Well, I know which side I'm on here. The FO. I'm not a fan of our HC or OC, mainly due to the OL, and I think that Starks was a decent RT and Colon is worthless. They need to let Colon walk or slide inside to G and draft a real LT and move Starks back to RT. Then all we'd have to do is replace on OG, unless Urbik or Foster was going to be worthwhile.

We also know that the FO is the one that put together all these great teams we've had, including both SB winners. The current coaching staff did next to nothing for that.

Mr. Faneca, is that you? :flap:

fansince'76
09-09-2009, 11:23 AM
Someone is going to take a hit if the offense doesnt get out of the bottom half of the league in overall run and pass effectiveness.

and guess what, it wont be the FO.

Even if we win it all again? :coffee:

Dino 6 Rings
09-09-2009, 11:34 AM
blah blah blah

drama blah

reality TV blah drama blah nonsense blah nonsense drama blah

pesimism blah drama drama queen blah blah blah controversy blah

blah

HometownGal
09-09-2009, 11:34 AM
Even if we win it all again? :coffee:


Stop it Gary - you're making too much sense. :chuckle:

Let's spell it out for the coaching staff bashers again . . . .

E X E C U T I O N

Steely McSmash
09-09-2009, 11:38 AM
If I remember correctly, Cowher and AJ II didn't see eye to eye. I believe it was to the point that Bill wouldn't shake his hand after the super bowl.


I recall this as well. Recall if you can Cowher's retirement announcement (when he wore the best sweater money could buy). AR2 just kind of stood in the back with a half smile while Cowher and Dan were in the emotional foreground.

To mmalone:

I think that at some point Tomlin will have had it with poor coaching if he so judges it. Due to his clout, I expect we could get some higher quality coaching talent instead of the brownies cast-offs.

fansince'76
09-09-2009, 11:41 AM
Stop it Gary - you're making too much sense. :chuckle:

Let's spell it out for the coaching staff bashers again . . . .

E X E C U T I O N

Nah, all I care about is offensive ranking. Remember 2006? Sure, we were out of the playoff hunt for all intents and purposes by Halloween, but we ranked 7th in total offense that year! WOOOO! That was awesome! What a kickass season! WOOOOO! :cheer:

HometownGal
09-09-2009, 11:44 AM
Nah, all I care about is offensive ranking. Remember 2006? Sure, we were out of the playoff hunt for all intents and purposes by Halloween, but we ranked 7th in total offense that year! WOOOO! That was awesome! What a kickass season! WOOOOO! :cheer:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mgLsO-P-a0Q/SZXyb_lO8HI/AAAAAAAABJg/uMun_-azXA8/s320/woo+hoo.jpg

kirklandrules
09-09-2009, 12:18 PM
O.k. just remember that the buck stops at the FO. They are responsible for obtaining a coaching staff that reflects the philosophy of the FO and obtaining the talent for the coaching staff to mold into the team that best displays that philosophy on the field. Ideally, you would hope they agree on everything, but like any working relationship there are going to be differences of opinions. When there are differences, the FO will always win because they are at the top of the house. So, will there be times that Tomlin becomes frustrated with the decisions made by his bosses? Sure, just as everyone on this post most likely deals with on a daily basis. But it doesn't imply a broken relationship and Tomlin showed he could bring home the bacon with the team given to him (which by the way are the same schlups that just won them a championship).

When this relationship breaks you end up in a position like Cowher and Donahoe had. Ultimately, the FO chose Cowher over Donahoe and the team moved forward with Colbert.

What we don't see/hear are the conversation between Tomlin and Colbert after a few stiff drinks at the bar that go something like this:
Tomlin: "Man we are overpaying Starks. The kid's not bad, but franchise money? Can't you get me the next Marvel Smith?"
Colbert: "Who do you want me to get? Stud left tackles don't grow on trees and they rarely hit the open market. That damned kid struck a hard bargain and we had to pay or we'd lose what little we had. Would you rather have Essex starting for you this year?"
Tomlin: "I hear you, but a man can bitch can't he?"
Colbert: "Sure coach, just as long as you keep bringing home the hardware. By the way, you should shake it a few more times before you zip it up ... it looks like you pissed yourself.".
:drink:

steelreserve
09-09-2009, 12:21 PM
Well all I know is that the coaching staff has more experience running an NFL team than you, so I'll just trust their judgment, thanks.

And what I know is that the FO put together a Super Bowl winning team, so I'll just trust that they know what they're doing, thanks.

Wait a minute ... coaching staff ... trust judgment ... front office ... paradox .... OH GOD, what do I DO???? http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f370/capt_taco/SmileySuicide.gif

lamberts-lost-tooth
09-09-2009, 12:25 PM
We also know that the FO is the one that put together all these great teams we've had, including both SB winners. The current coaching staff did next to nothing for that.


Not true...here are just a few examples from the "Tomlin Era" that shows it was the coaching stafff that made the picks.

Timmons
....the Steelers were the only team whose head coach was at FSU's pro day to watch Timmons work out.
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2007/03/31/steelers-show-plenty-of-interest-in-timmons/

Tomlin could have simply gone back and watched more of Timmons on game tape or viewed his Combine performance until he needed a case of Visine, but he saw something that piqued his interest and made him want to see Timmons again in person.
http://pittsburghlive.com:8000/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_500438.html



Frank Summers
And if there's one team whose attention Summers caught more than anyone's as a fullback, it was the reigning Super Bowl champion Pittsburgh Steelers, who had two scouts on-hand alongside running backs coach Kirby Wilson.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/mar/06/summers-steals-show-unlv-pro-day/

Lamar Woodley
Tomlin remembers something else about his trip to Ann Arbor. "That is the same workout when I kind of fell in love with LaMarr Woodley," Tomlin said.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_608816.html

Limas Sweed
I worked with him. We sit, and there were 7 or 8 wide receiver coaches there the day we worked him out, and I didn’t see anything that he wouldn’t be able to do in our system. We’re very excited about that." said Wide Receivers Coach Randy Fichtner
http://news.steelers.com/article/88607/

Ziggy Hood
Hood is certain he knows what he did to impress the Steelers, besides making 10 sacks the last two seasons.
"It was more than my ability, speed and strength," Hood said. "I think the way I presented myself, I came off with good character, and I knew a little bit about the game and I explained my defense to coach (Mike) Tomlin and the Pittsburgh staff. I can be coached, I have no problem being coached and I don't mind fixing or adjusting to different things
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-04-25/steelers-choose-de-ziggy-hood-first-round

fansince'76
09-09-2009, 12:32 PM
Well all I know is that the coaching staff has more experience running an NFL team than you, so I'll just trust their judgment, thanks.

And what I know is that the FO put together a Super Bowl winning team, so I'll just trust that they know what they're doing, thanks.

Wait a minute ... coaching staff ... trust judgment ... front office ... paradox .... OH GOD, what do I DO???? http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f370/capt_taco/SmileySuicide.gif

I dunno, not put much stock in what Pittsburgh's answer to Rona Barrett (Bouchette) has to say about it, perhaps?

cubanstogie
09-09-2009, 12:36 PM
Well, I know which side I'm on here. The FO. I'm not a fan of our HC or OC, mainly due to the OL, and I think that Starks was a decent RT and Colon is worthless. They need to let Colon walk or slide inside to G and draft a real LT and move Starks back to RT. Then all we'd have to do is replace on OG, unless Urbik or Foster was going to be worthwhile.

We also know that the FO is the one that put together all these great teams we've had, including both SB winners. The current coaching staff did next to nothing for that.

You say Tomlin and Arians had next to nothing to do with winning SB, yet you aren't a fan of them due to offensive line. I don't understand the logic, they had nothing to do with the line, except for getting rid of Mahan. They inherited the line. It appears you pick and choose what the FO is accountable for. I think you lose all credibility in a post when you make an asinine statement like that. I say it again its not all X's and O's the players love Tomlin. Motivation is big in a league of spoiled young millionaires.

Hammer67
09-09-2009, 12:46 PM
blah blah blah

drama blah

reality TV blah drama blah nonsense blah nonsense drama blah

pesimism blah drama drama queen blah blah blah controversy blah

blah

:sofunny: :thumbsup:

Nah, all I care about is offensive ranking. Remember 2006? Sure, we were out of the playoff hunt for all intents and purposes by Halloween, but we ranked 7th in total offense that year! WOOOO! That was awesome! What a kickass season! WOOOOO! :cheer:


Again...:chuckle:.

Some people on this board post some of the most rediculous things and have no idea what is about to hit them.

:popcorn:

Hammer67
09-09-2009, 12:48 PM
Well, I know which side I'm on here. The FO. I'm not a fan of our HC or OC, mainly due to the OL, and I think that Starks was a decent RT and Colon is worthless. They need to let Colon walk or slide inside to G and draft a real LT and move Starks back to RT. Then all we'd have to do is replace on OG, unless Urbik or Foster was going to be worthwhile.

We also know that the FO is the one that put together all these great teams we've had, including both SB winners. The current coaching staff did next to nothing for that.

I think I officially think you know absolutely nothing about how the NFL and football works, but that's just based on this post.

Blame Arians!!!!!

:wave:

OneForTheToe
09-09-2009, 01:15 PM
Having a disagreement between the FO and coaching staff does not mean there is a problem. The Steelers make personnel decisions jointly with Colbert (usually representing the FO) and the Coaching Staff. The two sides look at things differently. The FO has to look into the future two or three seasons, particularly in how decisions will effect the cap and bottom line. I would imagine that would be a difficult thing for a coach to do because they are usually so engrossed in the here and now of the team. That is why a joint approach is needed.

As long as there remains respect between the two, a few disagreements are hardly going to derail the team. Some might even remember that Dan Rooney made Chuck Noll fire all of his assistants in the Eighties when the Steelers had been under performing for a few seasons. That's right, nice sweet Dan Rooney told Noll he had to fire is coaches, including Tony Dungy. We like to think of the Steelers as a family, but it is still a business that has to be run in a way and sometimes not everyone will agree about everything. They might even argue from time to time. Wait a minute, that is my family. :huh:

OneForTheToe
09-09-2009, 01:28 PM
supposely the FO wanted to get Reed signed to a long term deal but the coaches wanted to resign keisel.

i am sure every team has many disagreements about who to sign, to keep, or cut and i am sure there are always disagreements between the staff and FO


That, if true, to me in and of itself shows there is no problem. The FO wanted Reed, while the coaching staff wanted Keisel? The front office signed who?

KeiselPower99
09-09-2009, 02:17 PM
What side does Colbert play in all of this? Obviously he listens to the coaches or we wouldnt have some of the guys we have here.

markymarc
09-09-2009, 03:26 PM
Man Thursday night can't get here fast enough. Although I wonder what nonsense will be talked about over the next 10 days after the game tomorrow :chuckle:

HometownGal
09-09-2009, 07:10 PM
Man Thursday night can't get here fast enough. Although I wonder what nonsense will be talked about over the next 10 days after the game tomorrow :chuckle:

When the Steelers put that first W in their column tomorrow night, there will be umpteen boo bird threads started on what the Steelers did wrong, how Arians suuuuuucks, FWP suuuuuucks, the OL suuuuuuuucks, :blah::blah::blah:

mesaSteeler
09-09-2009, 07:53 PM
Having a disagreement between the FO and coaching staff does not mean there is a problem. The Steelers make personnel decisions jointly with Colbert (usually representing the FO) and the Coaching Staff. The two sides look at things differently. The FO has to look into the future two or three seasons, particularly in how decisions will effect the cap and bottom line. I would imagine that would be a difficult thing for a coach to do because they are usually so engrossed in the here and now of the team. That is why a joint approach is needed.

As long as there remains respect between the two, a few disagreements are hardly going to derail the team. Some might even remember that Dan Rooney made Chuck Noll fire all of his assistants in the Eighties when the Steelers had been under performing for a few seasons. That's right, nice sweet Dan Rooney told Noll he had to fire is coaches, including Tony Dungy. We like to think of the Steelers as a family, but it is still a business that has to be run in a way and sometimes not everyone will agree about everything. They might even argue from time to time. Wait a minute, that is my family. :huh:

Excellent post.
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::appla udit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

SteelTalons
09-09-2009, 07:57 PM
Having a disagreement between the FO and coaching staff does not mean there is a problem. The Steelers make personnel decisions jointly with Colbert (usually representing the FO) and the Coaching Staff. The two sides look at things differently. The FO has to look into the future two or three seasons, particularly in how decisions will effect the cap and bottom line. I would imagine that would be a difficult thing for a coach to do because they are usually so engrossed in the here and now of the team. That is why a joint approach is needed.

As long as there remains respect between the two, a few disagreements are hardly going to derail the team. Some might even remember that Dan Rooney made Chuck Noll fire all of his assistants in the Eighties when the Steelers had been under performing for a few seasons. That's right, nice sweet Dan Rooney told Noll he had to fire is coaches, including Tony Dungy. We like to think of the Steelers as a family, but it is still a business that has to be run in a way and sometimes not everyone will agree about everything. They might even argue from time to time. Wait a minute, that is my family. :huh:

Superb Post! :drink:

tyler289
09-09-2009, 08:15 PM
There's always going to be debate between the front office and coaching staff regarding certain players.

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 10:31 PM
If that's the case, why even bother having a coaching staff?

They have to coach them. My point wasn't that the coaches didn't do crap to win last year. It was that they didn't do crap in putting together that team. That was a different HC, different OC, and most of those players were there before LeBeau started this stint too so he probably didn't have a lot to do with MOST of the defensive players either.

Seriously, how many players that are key contributors for last year's SB team weren't on there for SB XL under Cowher, Whiz and LeBeau? Justin Hartwig? Mewelde Moore? Lamar Woodley? That's about it. Granted the Woodman was huge, and Moore did a significant part, but the vast majority was already there in place and in their prime.

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 10:35 PM
You can't be serious. Really...you must be joking.

Put Tomlin on the open market and he gets about 20 offers within 48 hours.

What is your point? I said he didn't put together the team that won SB 43. The FO and Cowher did. I didn't say he sucked or didn't help win it. But the FO has put out a winner year after year after year. Much more proven.

Lets not forget that John Gruden won a SB right away and was labeled a GREAT coach, and then receded into mediocrity and eventually to being fired, once he had to build his own team. I personally don't know what to expect in this case. I sure hope that doesn't happen, and I don't think it will since our FO has proven to be good, but I really don't like how we've drafted the last 3 years at all. (No OL, minimal DL, etc)

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 10:44 PM
Not true...here are just a few examples from the "Tomlin Era" that shows it was the coaching stafff that made the picks.

Timmons

A package guy, not a starter.

Frank Summers

100% irrelevant, as he wasn't even on the team


Lamar Woodley

STUD


Limas Sweed

Irrelevant again as he did next to nothing to help us win.


Ziggy Hood

Again, 100% irrelevant as he wasn't even on the team. I said very distinctly that this current coaching staff didn't do much at all to put that SUPER BOWL WINNING team together. So the 2 rookies sure as hell don't count, Sweed didn't do much, Timmons helped but only on passing downs (and backup, etc) and thus leaving the Woodman as the main contributor (and he was a big one). But one stud and one situational player don't equal much of a contribution compared to the 22 other starters, including Silverback, Ben and Holmes, who were the ones making the big players to win the game. I guess you can give them credit for Hartwig, who almost cost us the game with that safety. (just giving you crap, he is a huge upgrade over Mahan and Suckobi)

fansince'76
09-09-2009, 10:44 PM
Seriously, how many players that are key contributors for last year's SB team weren't on there for SB XL under Cowher, Whiz and LeBeau? Justin Hartwig? Mewelde Moore? Lamar Woodley? That's about it. Granted the Woodman was huge, and Moore did a significant part, but the vast majority was already there in place and in their prime.

How about the MVP of the game? Not to mention Harrison was a bench warming special teamer who was only known for body slamming a drunk Browns fan at the time SB XL was played.

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 10:46 PM
How about the MVP of the game? Not to mention Harrison was a bench warmer who was only known for body slamming a drunk Browns fan in XL.

Holmes was still a Cowher pick, definitely not a Tomlin guy. So while he wasn't there for XL, still a Cowher guy and the current coaching staff had NOTHING to do with him being picked, as Tomlin wasn't even on the team yet when he was drafted. I suppose Arians may have since he was the WR coach, but I would think that the position coaches don't have a hell of a lot of say in the 1st round draft pick.

fansince'76
09-09-2009, 10:47 PM
OK, why don't we just give Cowher credit for coaching the win in SB XLIII too. Jesus.

devilsdancefloor
09-09-2009, 11:04 PM
That, if true, to me in and of itself shows there is no problem. The FO wanted Reed, while the coaching staff wanted Keisel? The front office signed who?

oh stop it your making sense now! Than god less thank one day til kickoff!

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 11:06 PM
You say Tomlin and Arians had next to nothing to do with winning SB, yet you aren't a fan of them due to offensive line. I don't understand the logic, they had nothing to do with the line, except for getting rid of Mahan. They inherited the line. It appears you pick and choose what the FO is accountable for. I think you lose all credibility in a post when you make an asinine statement like that. I say it again its not all X's and O's the players love Tomlin. Motivation is big in a league of spoiled young millionaires.

I said they had nothing to do with putting the team on the field that won the SB. They didn't inherit that OL either. The OL they inherited:

Smith, Faneca, Mahan, Simmons, Starks

the SB OL:

Starks, Kemo, Hartwig, Stapleton, Colon

WOW, that looks identical! Not a single starter the same, unless you count a RT that struggled with pass blocking being moved to LT.

Sure Smith and Simmons left due to injury mainly, but the coach/FO didn't even try to replace them. Not a single OT drafted in the 1st 3 rounds since then. Only a 3rd round OG drafted, in year 3. Colon, Kemo, were 6th-round backups for Cowher. Cowher's OL: 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd. Tomlins: 3rd, 6th, 6th, UFA, 4th.

So they picked up Stapleton as a UFA and started him his second year due to injury, started a Cowher guy who should be an OG at RT, etc. I guess I think it's funny how people look at these 6th round backups of Cowher's and want to say that Tomlin inherited them as the starting OL. No. Tomlin inherited them ALL as backups. He made them the starters. Not a single one was a starter (at their current position) under Cowher.

Oh and btw, the reason why I attribute the lack of OL under Tomlin is due to him and not the FO is the fact that Cowher put a lot of emphasis on OL (sometimes too much, as he wanted an OL instead of Ben) and the result was 5 highly drafted OL starting. Since he left there's been zero emphasis on OL early in the draft or as a high-profile FA pickup. An old, average C in Hartwig. A 3rd rounder in Urbik. A couple undrafted free agents. A 4th round OT. That's about it worth mentioning.

So yes, Tomlin gets the credit for starting Cowher's backups. The FO didn't change. The coaches did. But all of a sudden the starting OL used to be the backup OL.....Tomlin is the only variable that changed here.

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 11:08 PM
OK, why don't we just give Cowher credit for coaching the win in SB XLIII too. Jesus.

LOL. Well I do give him credit for the team. Tomlin had to coach em though. (Personally I give most of the credit to Ben, LeBeau and the defense.)

tony hipchest
09-09-2009, 11:08 PM
:stupid:lol. who invited the titans fan who thinks tomlin is a do nothing? ^^^^

fansince'76
09-09-2009, 11:12 PM
LOL. Well I do give him credit for the team. Tomlin had to coach em though. (Personally I give most of the credit to Ben, LeBeau and the defense.)

So does Cowher get credit for the OL that gave up almost 50 sacks in 2006 or does Tomlin somehow own that too?

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 11:13 PM
:stupid:lol. who invited the titans fan who thinks tomlin is a do nothing? ^^^^

LOL, I'm not a Titan's fan. I also didn't say he was a do nothing. I simply stated the fact that he does nothing with the OL, which is a big issue in my book. The rest of last year's team is virtually identical to Cowher's XL team, so he did next to nothing in assembling it. Didn't say he didn't coach it. (I'd say this about ANY coach who took over a winning team and just won with the old team in-tact still, so nothing personal.)

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 11:19 PM
So does Cowher get credit for the OL that gave up almost 50 sacks in 2006 or does Tomlin somehow own that too?

I give credit to that to Ben's accident, Cowher BEING STUPID AND PLAYING HIM (I was livid), and Hartings being a shadow of himself due to injuries. Hartings wasn't very good at all there, so that was the issue there IMO. When your C sucks, you have no team. That's why I wanted a stud OL in the first last year. As I feel that the biggest weakness on this team is Willie Colon, I personally wanted Eben Britton, followed by Alex Mack and Eric Woods in this last draft. I didn't see an OG worth taking in the 1st, so therefore upgrading over Kemo or Stapler (#2 and #3 weaknesses) wasn't an option in the first. I thought Hartwig was our best OL last year, but he's old and was (till this week) going into the last year of his contract, and C was the most likely to be around at pick #32 (or within tradeup range) as well.

tony hipchest
09-09-2009, 11:20 PM
LOL, I'm not a Titan's fan. I also didn't say he was a do nothing. I simply stated the fact that he does nothing with the OL, which is a big issue in my book. The rest of last year's team is virtually identical to Cowher's XL team, so he did next to nothing in assembling it. Didn't say he didn't coach it. (I'd say this about ANY coach who took over a winning team and just won with the old team in-tact still, so nothing personal.)your book is less than a page long. i read it. :thmbdown::thmbdown:

enjoy your stay here.

i am enjoying americas game 2008 (again) which perfectly illustrated tomlins coaching genius.

Preacher
09-09-2009, 11:22 PM
So does Cowher get credit for the OL that gave up almost 50 sacks in 2006 or does Tomlin somehow own that too?

:rofl:

Let's throw in 2003 too, just to see what he says.

devilsdancefloor
09-09-2009, 11:27 PM
you do realize that kendall simmon (in 2002) was out last "high" OL drafted right? But i suppose tomilin in tampa had something to do with the last 4 years of cowher NOT selecting a high OL? I do believe we where going to pick mack or woods , but funny thin about the draft we drafted LAST and they where gone. I think we did the smart thing an didnt reach for a OL and got a hell of a DL IMHO. (we are OOOLLLDDDD there in case you didnt know). I get mad at Colon for dumb mistakes BUT he has steadlity improved year after year. then you give props to the center who gave up the most sacks in the league at the position:doh:. all i gotta say is put the bong down and walk away slowly

SunshineMan21
09-09-2009, 11:29 PM
I said they had nothing to do with putting the team on the field that won the SB. They didn't inherit that OL either. The OL they inherited:

Smith, Faneca, Mahan, Simmons, Starks

the SB OL:

Starks, Kemo, Hartwig, Stapleton, Colon

WOW, that looks identical! Not a single starter the same, unless you count a RT that struggled with pass blocking being moved to LT.

Sure Smith and Simmons left due to injury mainly, but the coach/FO didn't even try to replace them. Not a single OT drafted in the 1st 3 rounds since then. Only a 3rd round OG drafted, in year 3. Colon, Kemo, were 6th-round backups for Cowher. Cowher's OL: 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd. Tomlins: 3rd, 6th, 6th, UFA, 4th.

So they picked up Stapleton as a UFA and started him his second year due to injury, started a Cowher guy who should be an OG at RT, etc. I guess I think it's funny how people look at these 6th round backups of Cowher's and want to say that Tomlin inherited them as the starting OL. No. Tomlin inherited them ALL as backups. He made them the starters. Not a single one was a starter (at their current position) under Cowher.

Oh and btw, the reason why I attribute the lack of OL under Tomlin is due to him and not the FO is the fact that Cowher put a lot of emphasis on OL (sometimes too much, as he wanted an OL instead of Ben) and the result was 5 highly drafted OL starting. Since he left there's been zero emphasis on OL early in the draft or as a high-profile FA pickup. An old, average C in Hartwig. A 3rd rounder in Urbik. A couple undrafted free agents. A 4th round OT. That's about it worth mentioning.

So yes, Tomlin gets the credit for starting Cowher's backups. The FO didn't change. The coaches did. But all of a sudden the starting OL used to be the backup OL.....Tomlin is the only variable that changed here.


You won't often hear me defending the O-line, but since Tomlin just won a Super Bowl with "Cowher's backups" maybe he knows something you don't.

I will agree that Cowher and the FO put in place much of the most recent championship team, and I'm a huge fan of the FO in general, but you have to give credit where credit is due.

~James Harrison never got a shot under Cowher--Tomlin made him a starter with awesome results.

~Tomlin used his first draft to pick Timmons, Woodley, Spaeth, Sepulveda, and Gay. Can't remember who he picked after that, but Woodley, Timmons, and Gay were all major contributors to the Super Bowl team as second-year players. In his first five rounds, Tomlin picked four starters.

~Tomlin was responsible for the Mewelde Moore signing--Moore was indispensable throughout the season.

~For whatever reason, the play of our CBs (most notably Ike Taylor) improved markedly under Tomlin.

~Tomlin picked up blocking TE/FB Sean McHugh, who was a valuable role player.

~Tomlin brought in Keyaron Fox, Donovan Woods, and Patrick Bailey, totally reforming our once-terrible ST unit.

It's tough to diffrentiate Tomlin and the FO on some recent moves, but I think all of the above are enough of a reason to say that Tomlin deserves some credit for our success last year.

tyler289
09-09-2009, 11:33 PM
Tomlin's first draft as a head coach was epic. I'm sure the front office was the main factor, but that draft yielded 4 starters (two of which are headed towards superstardom) and a solid backup. That's a lot better than most team's best drafts.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-09-2009, 11:37 PM
The biggest one that they mentioned is the disagreement between the two regarding the OT's on the team. The FO believed that Starks was a keeper. The coaching staff did not. Max got the Franchise Tag twice and eventually got the money.

The FO does not believe that Colon is necessarily the answer at RT, but the coaching staff believes that Colon is the best RT in the league. Colon hasn't been extended yet.

.

I agree with the coaches. Starks wasnt a keeper, but thankfully he didnt get a big contract this year. I also think Colon is a fine RT, but his lack of height and long arms are probably better suited to guard.

I was so hoping for Starks to be let go and have Essex play LT along with a rookie draft pick, while they extended Colon. I still wish they would have drafted LT Anthony Collins instead of Bruce Davis 2 years ago. :doh:

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 11:46 PM
you do realize that kendall simmon (in 2002) was out last "high" OL drafted right? But i suppose tomilin in tampa had something to do with the last 4 years of cowher NOT selecting a high OL? I do believe we where going to pick mack or woods , but funny thin about the draft we drafted LAST and they where gone. I think we did the smart thing an didnt reach for a OL and got a hell of a DL IMHO. (we are OOOLLLDDDD there in case you didnt know). I get mad at Colon for dumb mistakes BUT he has steadlity improved year after year. then you give props to the center who gave up the most sacks in the league at the position:doh:. all i gotta say is put the bong down and walk away slowly

Why would he need to? He had 4 OL young enough and good enough to not have to worry about it for at least a few years.

The OL with their ages on the day of Cowher's retirement:

Smith: 28 and still good at that time
Faneca: 30 still a pro-bowler (still going strong)
Hartings: 34 and yes he needed replaced as he was bad in '06 plus old
Simmons: 27 never did like him, but he's better than Kemo, Stapler, Essex
Starks: 24 and turning into a decent RT

So no reason to draft OL early besides C. Smith was still good, Faneca was a stud, Hartings needed replaced, Simmons wasn't good but was a fairly young 1st rounder and adequate, and Starks was a decent RT that was still very young.

I think we were going to as well, unless it was just a smokescreen. Woods was the one we kept hearing about. BUT, we also heard from Dick LeBeau that if James Laurinaitis was available at 32 we were going to take him....and we didn't. So you never know till the pick has been made.

I don't think that Eben Britton would've been a reach at all personally. I think he could've turned into a vastly superior OT than Colon, and a better OG than anyone we have too.

Hood could turn out to be ok. He gets rave reviews from some players and coaches, so hopefully anyway. I like his motor, but that's about it. He has to totally relearn how to play DL, as he was a pure 43 UT before always wanting to spin and penetrate.

How did I give props? By saying he was the best OL we had last year and an upgrade over Mahan? Yes he was. The best OL we had isn't saying much though. It's like saying he's the cream of the crap. Not much of a compliment.

Blitzburgh 34
09-09-2009, 11:58 PM
You won't often hear me defending the O-line, but since Tomlin just won a Super Bowl with "Cowher's backups" maybe he knows something you don't.

And that would be what? That if you have Superman as your QB, God as your DC and a hell of a defense you can win even with junk on the OL? Cowher's old OL (his actual starters) may have been giving up sacks, but at least they could run block. This current OL can't do anything. Look at the pathetic YPA, sack #s, etc etc. Disgusting. I'm hoping they improve after some continuity and experience from last year!

I will agree that Cowher and the FO put in place much of the most recent championship team, and I'm a huge fan of the FO in general, but you have to give credit where credit is due.

~James Harrison never got a shot under Cowher--Tomlin made him a starter with awesome results.

True. I would love to know what would've happened if Cowher would've stayed. I suspect Porter would've been resigned (he is playing lights out still in Miami) and idk about Haggans and Silverback. Silverback and Porter would've been a nice duo to look at it hypothetically.

~Tomlin used his first draft to pick Timmons, Woodley, Spaeth, Sepulveda, and Gay. Can't remember who he picked after that, but Woodley, Timmons, and Gay were all major contributors to the Super Bowl team as second-year players. In his first five rounds, Tomlin picked four starters.

Punters aren't considered starters, and when you trade up in the 4th for a P, he better start. Timmons hasn't proven to be a quality starter yet, so a moot point there. Spaeth is terrible. Gay could be good. Woodley makes that draft by himself though if he keeps it up....dude's a beast.

~Tomlin was responsible for the Mewelde Moore signing--Moore was indispensable throughout the season.

Moore was quite possible the team MVP last year. He was always good in MN too, just too much of a sissy to be reliable. Every time they tried to make him the feature back instead of back by committee, he'd get some little sissy injury like an ankle sprain. That's why he was in TWO coaches' dog houses in MN.

~For whatever reason, the play of our CBs (most notably Ike Taylor) improved markedly under Tomlin.

Taylor was really good, by his stonehands standard, in '05 too. '06 the whole team fell off. '07 they all rebounded lol. McFadden never improved. He was good as a rookie, and good last year...just couldn't stay healthy. I personally think the pass rush is that much better with Woodley being a considerable upgrade over Haggans, and Silverback being an upgrade over Porter that it makes the CBs look better than they are. Pass rush is the CB's best friend. I do think they improved, at least somewhat, for w/e reason though.

~Tomlin picked up blocking TE/FB Sean McHugh, who was a valuable role player.

True. That was a good pickup......too bad AGAIN we have no blocker though.

~Tomlin brought in Keyaron Fox, Donovan Woods, and Patrick Bailey, totally reforming our once-terrible ST unit.

Yes I agree he did help STs tremendously, especially Bailey. That boy was a total shocker last year. Actually Fox and Woods did too....I knew who Fox was but figured he'd be a scrub since he did nothing in KC.

It's tough to diffrentiate Tomlin and the FO on some recent moves, but I think all of the above are enough of a reason to say that Tomlin deserves some credit for our success last year.

Fair enough, but on O very little, and on D it was mainly Woodley. Timmons being put in Troy's place in the nickel was huge too btw. I don't like Timmons as an every-down backer, but as a nickel backer, mainly due to letting Troy go back to S, I love it.

tony hipchest
09-10-2009, 12:03 AM
I don't think that Eben Britton would've been a reach at all personally. I think he could've turned into a vastly superior OT than Colon, and a better OG than anyone we have too.

Hood could turn out to be ok. He gets rave reviews from some players and coaches, so hopefully anyway. t.

players and coaches rave reviews >>>> what you think.

take a wild guess or shot in the dark. it may get you somewhere... :coffee:

Blitzburgh 34
09-10-2009, 12:06 AM
Tomlin's first draft as a head coach was epic. I'm sure the front office was the main factor, but that draft yielded 4 starters (two of which are headed towards superstardom) and a solid backup. That's a lot better than most team's best drafts.

LOL, another Timmons fan? He hasn't even started yet, other than as a backup at OLB, yet he's headed for superstardom? I liked him in the nickel, but not as an every down player. He can't support the run, or at least hasn't done it in a game yet, and from what I saw last year and this preseason, I'd go with Fox replacing Foote and rotating him with Timmons according to the situation as was done last year with Foote and Timmons.

Gay should be a quality starter based on last year, which is good for a 5th comp, but again hasn't proven to be a good starter in an every-down/every-game role yet.

Sepulveda should be a stud, but a P traded up for in the 4th better be.

Wood is the only proven stud from that draft.

Wasted a 3rd on Spaeth, and the rest sucked.

Blitzburgh 34
09-10-2009, 12:07 AM
players and coaches rave reviews >>>> what you think.

take a wild guess or shot in the dark. it may get you somewhere... :coffee:

They're not going to knock their own teammate/player, so you always get fluff out of them. It does sound fairly genuine here, but I've definitely learned to take it with a grain of salt over the years. You heard lots of good stuff about Anthony Smith too, and look at where he is.

RoethlisBURGHer
09-10-2009, 12:19 AM
The front office and coaching staff will always have disagreements.

I think part of the problem is that when Colbert was brought in, Cowher was already an established head coach. So he was obviously going to to have some say-so in draft choices.

Then they brought in Tomlin, and I think Colbert might have been looking at this situation to become a big name in NFL circles as the guy who builds the Steelers.

But that didn't happen, and Tomlin got more say in draft choices and FA pickups than what Colbert liked.

Tomlin was also given free reign to choose who he wanted to start, even if the front office didn't agree with his decisions. No way was Colbert going to be allowed to tell Tomlin where any single player stood on the roster.

The only way Colbert and the rest of the front office can dictate who plays and who doesn't is by cutting and signing players.

Ownership doesn't stick their noses in unless they have to. They did in the 1980's when Dan Rooney told Noll to fire all of his assistants. Once again, Dan Rooney did so when the Steelers drafted Ben Roethlisberger, but Cowher wanted an offensive lineman (and I feel this is a big reason why Cowher and Ben had a rocky relationship).

If Art II needs to, he will step in. And I wouldn't be surprised if things started to get out of hand that Dan Rooney made a phone call or a trip to Pittsburgh to sort things out and throw the hammer down on someone.

Honestly, if it comes down to Tomlin or the Front Office, Colbert will get the boot. I don't think Art II and Dan want Tomlin walking away at the end of his contract.

Steelers & I
09-10-2009, 03:42 AM
OK, why don't we just give Cowher credit for coaching the win in SB XLIII too. Jesus.

NO! Lets not and say that we did.

MongoSteeler
09-10-2009, 03:42 AM
Let ma see here, A big time sports reporter with his own by line gets the scoop "COACH and FRONT OFFICE SCHISM" and instead of selling papers for the people that give him a paycheck, he blurts it out to ESPN. It's just got to be true!!!

Steelers & I
09-10-2009, 04:00 AM
Oh big deal, I'm sure that the Front Office and the Coaching Staff have had a few disagreements. As far as I'm concerned, it's none of Bouchette's business. As long as this situation doesn't lead to anything similar to the Cowher and Donahoe relationship, I really couldn't care any less.

To quote Herm Edwards: :shout: "What's in your house, stays in your house" :confused:

Aussie_steeler
09-10-2009, 04:14 AM
I don't think that Eben Britton would've been a reach at all personally. I think he could've turned into a vastly superior OT than Colon, and a better OG than anyone we have too. .

Interesting call. All the pre draft analysis listed Britton as a very raw run blocker. He played in a pass orientated system and looked out of place run blocking in games that I saw pre draft. I think he would have been a pretty good RT with potential to move to LT after a few years.

I think the one thing both the FO and current coaching staff have in common is that they pick first round people with first round talent. Only the positions may vary.

mmalone
09-10-2009, 05:19 AM
Even if we win it all again? :coffee:

isnt tomlin trying to keep his players from thinking there going to win it all, so we dont end up like the other non repeat teams in the NFL...

one game at a time... 60 minutes.....

i just look at the facts. For 27 minutes and 56 seconds of the Super Bowl's second half we scored 3 points and almost lost...

if the refs rule a non catch or another ref calls holding we lose.

i just feel we need to be a better oiled machine on offense... keep out of those situations as much as possible.

but we won.... :tt03::tt03::tt03:

and we will kick some new 2009 NFL heads in tonight... :tt::tt:

Blitzburgh 34
09-10-2009, 12:34 PM
Interesting call. All the pre draft analysis listed Britton as a very raw run blocker. He played in a pass orientated system and looked out of place run blocking in games that I saw pre draft. I think he would have been a pretty good RT with potential to move to LT after a few years.

I think the one thing both the FO and current coaching staff have in common is that they pick first round people with first round talent. Only the positions may vary.

That was actually one of those deals where he can pass block and is fairly athletic, so he'd be an upgrade over our scrubs at OG, who are terrible. You are right though, in that the knock on him was that he wasn't the best run blocker......but look at Stapler and Essex. They can't get a push at all. Kemo is always out of control, lunging, too slow, can't pass block, etc.

BTW, Britton was already named the starting RT in Jacksonville, and they cut the guy he was competing with already, so they must be pretty sold on him. I would've been ecstatic and totally started to change my thinking on Tomlin and his personnel decisions had they drafted Britton at 32. But, of course they didn't so I still think the current regime is totally clueless when it comes to putting a team together, cause it all starts with the OL once you get your franchise QB. Gotta protect Ben. That's rule #1 now. With both OTs going into the last year of their contract (at that time) passing on a 1st round talent OT that slid clear to #32 was asinine, especially when he came out early as a junior so has more potential.

BlastFurnace
09-10-2009, 12:59 PM
What is your point? I said he didn't put together the team that won SB 43. The FO and Cowher did. I didn't say he sucked or didn't help win it. But the FO has put out a winner year after year after year. Much more proven.

Lets not forget that John Gruden won a SB right away and was labeled a GREAT coach, and then receded into mediocrity and eventually to being fired, once he had to build his own team. I personally don't know what to expect in this case. I sure hope that doesn't happen, and I don't think it will since our FO has proven to be good, but I really don't like how we've drafted the last 3 years at all. (No OL, minimal DL, etc)

How on earth can you not like Tomlin's first draft? Last year's draft hinges on the 1st 2 picks. This year's draft looks pretty good as well. Would have looked even better had they kept Sonny Harris.

You said you were not a fan of our HC and that our current coaching staff did next to nothing in putting this team together. That's what I had a problem with.

Tomlin lead this team to a SB win in his 2nd year as HC. It's not just about putting a roster together, it's the entire package the Tomlin brings to the table. Tomlin is a leader. He doesn't allow certain players...regardless of their clout in the locker room...to dictate his decisions. We couldn't have just plugged in any HC and gotten the same results.

How many times did we see Cowher's very talented teams come out flat, tight, and not win a game because of those very things. If it happened once or twice....ok. But...It happened quite a bit in his first 13 years as the HC. Cowher was a great HC for us in the regular season. He was an average HC in the playoffs.

Tomlin has this team playing with confidence...that they know they are the best team and they know they can win. That is the difference that Tomlin brings.

Gruden was a very HC at Oakland where he built a pretty good team. He inherited an older team that Dungy built in Tampa that was ready to win and he reaped the benefits of it. Gruden can build a team, but he became a divisive force in Tampa and that was part of the reason he was fired.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-10-2009, 02:07 PM
With both OTs going into the last year of their contract (at that time) passing on a 1st round talent OT that slid clear to #32 was asinine, especially when he came out early as a junior so has more potential.

The thing with Britton was that he had the 2nd shortest arms in the NFL combine and some speculated that he could never play LT in the NFL, because the premier pass rushers would swim over him and those short arms like they do Colon.

To spend a #1 pick on an OT who will only be a RT in the NFL is truly assinine. That is why the Lions did just that with Gosder Cherilus.

If you want a guy that can only play RT, you can always find him in the 3rd round or later. Gerald Cadogin was there this year, Sam Young of Notre Dame or Adam Ulatoski of Texas should be around next season.

BKAnthem
09-10-2009, 06:42 PM
All i know is ...they had the chance to draft 3 good O lineman in this draft(Antoine Caldwell, T.J. Lang, Duke Robnson)...and instead they take ....2 corners? a tight end? a short armed, light in the ass center they could have signed as a free agent? someones responsible for that....

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-10-2009, 07:06 PM
All i know is ...they had the chance to draft 3 good O lineman in this draft(Antoine Caldwell, T.J. Lang, Duke Robnson)...and instead they take ....2 corners? a tight end? a short armed, light in the ass center they could have signed as a free agent? someones responsible for that....

I think Caldwell was off the board before the Steelers made their 2nd pick, as was Vasquez, Wood and Levitre. Urbik was the next best pick. They wouldnt need to take Robinson in the 5th when they already took Urbik and so too with Lang in the 4th.

This is the kind of complaining I dont get. Have a look at how the draft shaked out and you will see they did the best possible. Even the year before, all the good OT's were gone and the only thing I was an advocate of was Anthony Collins in the 3rd instead of Bruce Davis and Carl Nicks in the 4th instead of Tony Hills.

The 2 corners, the TE were good picks. The 7th round Center was just that........a 7th rounder.