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T Bradshaw
09-16-2009, 12:59 AM
Tomlin never should have hired coach Z and try to change our system to zone blocking, why?
1- look at coach Z poor record below, the guy got his first coach job in the NFL in his late 50's
2- the finesse zone blocking system is not steeler football
3- our current OL players were brought here to play our old physical system, power running = steeler football, the same system we had for years under coach Cowher and worked so well for us, they are too big and slow for coach Z system

I blame Tomlin. not our RBs or OL

Tomlin failed to realize we do not have the right players to run this system, he never should have hired a coach who has failed, numbers dont lie. Why change? a system that worked for us for so many years

If things stays the same nothing will change, hoepfully Tomlin will correct his mistake



Coach Z's O'lines. Broke down for sacks, sacks/attempt, and yds/carry and ranks.

Year Team.......Sacks...(Rank)...Sack/Attempt...(Rank)....Yd/Carry...(Rank)

2001 Cleveland...51..........28...........9.137254902.. ...29...........3.2..........31

2002 Cleveland...35..........14..........15.77142857... ..18............4.............22

2003 Cleveland...40.........20...........12.725........ .....21...........4.1...........15

2004 Cleveland...41..........22..........10.70731707... ..27..........3.8............25

2006 Buffalo.......47..........25...........9.170212766 .....30..........3.7............25

2007 Pittsburgh...47.........25............9.404255319. ...31..........4.2.............7

2008 Pittsburgh...49.........29...........10.32653061.. ...29..........3.7.............29

AVERAGE:........44.29...23.29............11.03.... ......26.43.......3.81........22.00

T Bradshaw
09-16-2009, 01:15 AM
A Closer Look at Larry Zierlein's Career, Behind the Steel Curtain (a Pittsburgh Steelers blog), June 30, 2008
http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2008/6/30/561727/a-closer-look-at-larry-zie
Points Scored/Game Rushing Yards/Game Passing Yards/Game Sacks Allowed
2001(7-9) 17.8 (25th) 84.4 (31st) 175.1 (28th) 51 (4th)
2002(9-7) 21.5 (19th) 100.9 (23rd) 213.3 (18th) 35 (19th)
2003(5-11) 15.9 (29th) 104.4 (20th) 177.1 (25th) 40 (13th)
2004(4-12) 17.25 (27th) 103.6 (23rd) 176.5 (25th) 41 (11th)




E-mail gaffe
Zierlein gained unwanted notoriety in 2007 when he mistakenly forwarded an inappropriate e-mail to a large number of high-level NFL employees, including commissioner Roger Goodell. The e-mail, which Zierlein had received from Steelers pro personnel coordinator Doug Whaley contained a pornographic video. Zierlein apologized for the gaffe, but was not disciplined by the team or the league.[6]

Steelers & I
09-16-2009, 01:29 AM
I don't blame Tomlin but I didn't realize that Larry Zierlein is "another" former-BUM A$$ Browns assistant coach who's currently on the Steelers coaching staff.

Nuts, it's no wonder that the Steelers are struggling to establish a running game for 2 years running. Firing the morons who once coached with the Browns seems to be the solution.

Glace
09-16-2009, 01:31 AM
You know what?....awesome post!

This isn't another "Fire coach Z!" rant because of what we see on the field...this is statistically a horrible career.

But what can we do about it now? We're stuck with the guy and his scheme for the season.

And we DID win a superbowl with Coach Z....

Again, one game isn't the tale of a season. The O-Line played half decent at the end of the year. AND, I did see some good things from the O-Line against Tennessee.

Glace
09-16-2009, 01:39 AM
AND....(I'm not bashing Arians, I do back the guy).....really one of the biggest problems I see is that we are not calling the right running plays. We're trying to run a power running game behind this "finesse" line. I'm tired of seeing little Willie Parker go up the gut. WP's most dangerous asset, his SPEED, needs to be out in space. I want more toss plays, screen passes with WP, etc. Go AROUND the damn line!!

If we used WP like Philly uses Westbrook....it'd be amazing. Same thing for Mendenhall.

That's why Mewelde is having success in his 3rd down role. DO THAT ON EVERY FREAKING PLAY!!!

Fact for fact, we do NOT have a power running back anymore. Nobody on the roster is the answer for an up-the-gut runner.

JackHammer
09-16-2009, 01:56 AM
Ok. So now that you blame Tomlin, what do you do about it? Fire the youngest coach ever to win a Super Bowl? At this point complaining about Z is like complaining about BA. You're beating a dead horse. It doesn't matter if it's true or not because it's not gonna change for at least the foreseeable future.

Preacher
09-16-2009, 02:35 AM
Ok.

First, thanks for the info, and the fact that it isn't cherrypicked. That makes it much more legitimate a conversation and not some idiotic rant.

However, stats are just stats, and don't present the entire picture.

What I am interested in, is where are those teams as far as passing teams are concerned. Was this scheme and plays used to set up passes? If they were, then while we don't get good numbers, the SCHEME works... as it opens up the game down field. Granted, it is NOT a scheme we may like. But it is one that allows us to score quickly when we have to.

ricksteelers55
09-16-2009, 04:21 AM
WOW...nice job Bradshaw ....


I cant believe that guy still has a job ,how is that possible ?

is he working for free or what ?

everything is bad i mean lot of sacks,bad yds per carries...


I say let's stop the fire arians thread and let's start Fire Coach Z instead,heck im sure we'd be better without OL coach than with him

mmalone
09-16-2009, 04:26 AM
I don't blame Tomlin but I didn't realize that Larry Zierlein is "another" former-BUM A$$ Browns assistant coach who's currently on the Steelers coaching staff.

Nuts, it's no wonder that the Steelers are struggling to establish a running game for 2 years running. Firing the morons who once coached with the Browns seems to be the solution.

2 mistakes from the lake.......

BA and Z

No Upside there... sorry....

Vincent
09-16-2009, 05:18 AM
Gonzo ain't gonna like this at all. See, as he explained it to me, we don't "zone" block. And it was only my cluelessness and lack of deductive reasoning that led me to believe that we did. But I'm sure glad he cleared that up cuz day-ham I was confused.

Steelers & I
09-16-2009, 05:21 AM
WOW...nice job Bradshaw ....


I cant believe that guy still has a job ,how is that possible ?

is he working for free or what ?

everything is bad i mean lot of sacks,bad yds per carries...


I say let's stop the fire arians thread and let's start Fire Coach Z instead,heck im sure we'd be better without OL coach than with him

Maybe you've forgotten that Arians was the Browns Offensive Coordinator from 2004 to 2006 when some of those horrendous stats were accumulated?? And from 2001 to 2004 Arians was the Browns QB coach. Now those 2 clowns are in Pittsburgh putting up similar type stats but we as Steelers fans are supposed to be happy to have them. I mean they did after all, assist us in winning a Super Bowl, right?

I suppose that the Browns had a horrible offensive line during that tenure as well. Or maybe the horrible stats are directly associated with those 2 tools who call themselves assistant coaches. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

steelwalls
09-16-2009, 06:19 AM
I blame Tomlin for taking a shyty o-line coach and still winning the super bowl. He's terrible.....

JackHammer
09-16-2009, 06:30 AM
Maybe you've forgotten that Arians was the Browns Offensive Coordinator from 2004 to 2006 when some of those horrendous stats were accumulated?? And from 2001 to 2004 Arians was the Browns QB coach. Now those 2 clowns are in Pittsburgh putting up similar type stats but we as Steelers fans are supposed to be happy to have them. I mean they did after all, assist us in winning a Super Bowl, right?

I suppose that the Browns had a horrible offensive line during that tenure as well. Or maybe the horrible stats are directly associated with those 2 tools who call themselves assistant coaches. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Actually, you might want to learn how to use facts instead of making shit up. Arians was the Browns OC from 2001-03. His 2002 offense actually scored the most points by a Browns team since 1987 and gave us a run for our money in the playoffs, putting up 33 points on us with Holcomb throwing for over 400 yards and 3 TD's(of course our pass D back then was suspect, to put it lightly). In 2004 we hired him as our WR's coach, a job he kept until being name OC. Before becoming the Browns OC, he was the PEYTON MANNINGS QB COACH from 1998-200. He was NEVER the Browns QB coach and I challenge you to find a bio that says he was.

From his bio on Steelers.com:

Arians, 56, helped All-Pro wide receiver Hines Ward become one of the best wideouts in the NFL over the past five seasons. During Arians’ first five seasons with Pittsburgh, Ward has been to the Pro Bowl twice and was named Super Bowl XL MVP after finishing with 123 receiving yards and one touchdown. Ward also became the Steelers’ all-time receptions leader, surpassing Hall of Famer John Stallworth, and in 2007 became the team’s career leader in receiving yards and touchdown receptions.

Prior to the Steelers, Arians spent three seasons (2001-2003) as the offensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns. In 2002 under Arians’ guidance, the Browns scored their most points since the 1987 season and also improved in virtually every major offensive category from the three years prior to his arrival.

Arians was instrumental in the development of Indianapolis Colts quarterback Peyton Manning, while serving as the Colts’ quarterback coach for three years (1998-2000). Under Arians’ tutelage, Manning totaled 4,413 yards and 33 touchdowns in 2000 to break his own club season record. His 33 touchdown passes in 2000 established a Colts’ franchise record previously held by John Unitas.

The Lakelander
09-16-2009, 06:53 AM
The info was cherry-picked ... from the Mac & Wife boards. We had this discussion a few days back.

Here's my take:

Those are very scary stats. You can't argue with this guy's track record. It sucks!

No excuses can be made for those rankings ... none! ...

... except this ...

It was the Cleve Browns and the Buff Bills. :chuckle:

It was Butch Davis and Dick Jauron. :applaudit:

It was William Green, Lee Suggs, James Jackson and Jamel White. :applaudit:

It was Tim Couch and Kelly Holcomb. It was J.P Losman. :applaudit:

Three (3) of those seven years were 1st year offenses installed by 1st year head coaches ... no continuity. :noidea:

To his credit, the 2007 Steelers ranked 3rd in the NFL rushing, and the impetus for drafting has not been directed at o-linemen since Zierlein took over the o-line.

Granted we are in Zierlein's 3rd year now with the Steelers. It has got to get better from here.

We are basing everything on a brutal 2008 season where we played 12 out of 16 games against top 16 NFL defenses ...

... and one piss poor Week 1 opener against another real strong rush defense.

And so everyone has their panties all in a bunch. :chuckle:

Fire Haley
09-16-2009, 07:05 AM
blah blah blah

Another Tomlin hater troll, Cowher is gone. Get over it.


Where DO they all come from?

Steeldude
09-16-2009, 07:12 AM
31, 23 , 26 and 28 <--those numbers represent where the browns ranked on total offense in the NFL from 2001-2004.

31, 23, 20, and 23 <--those numbers represent where the browns rushing attack ranked in the NFL from 2001-2004.

Zierlein was the offensive line coach at the University of Cincinnati (1997-2000) when Tomlin was the Bearcats' secondary coach and also was the Browns' offensive line coach in 2001-04 when Arians was the offensive coordinator.

they are all buddies.

sharkweek
09-16-2009, 07:19 AM
The info was cherry-picked ... from the Mac & Wife boards. We had this discussion a few days back.

Here's my take:

Those are very scary stats. You can't argue with this guy's track record. It sucks!

No excuses can be made for those rankings ... none! ...

... except this ...

It was the Cleve Browns and the Buff Bills. :chuckle:

It was Butch Davis and Dick Jauron. :applaudit:

It was William Green, Lee Suggs, James Jackson and Jamel White. :applaudit:

It was Tim Couch and Kelly Holcomb. It was J.P Losman. :applaudit:

Three (3) of those seven years were 1st year offenses installed by 1st year head coaches ... no continuity. :noidea:

To his credit, the 2007 Steelers ranked 3rd in the NFL rushing, and the impetus for drafting has not been directed at o-linemen since Zierlein took over the o-line.

Granted we are in Zierlein's 3rd year now with the Steelers. It has got to get better from here.

We are basing everything on a brutal 2008 season where we played 12 out of 16 games against top 16 NFL defenses ...

... and one piss poor Week 1 opener against another real strong rush defense.

And so everyone has their panties all in a bunch. :chuckle:

true, there is no need to panic, but at the same time it would be nice to see some improvements in the coming seasons, starting with this one

The Lakelander
09-16-2009, 07:27 AM
Since we are going to be a passing team, then I want to see pass protection and bought time for Ben to pick apart NFL defenses.

The coaching staff graded the pass protection with very high marks this week.

If that trend continues, the running lanes will be big and wide soon enough.



The Password is "GASH".

http://l.yimg.com/l/tv/us/img/site/87/67/0000048767_20080521160506.jpg

HometownGal
09-16-2009, 07:41 AM
Fire that damned Tomlin and have the NFL force the Rooneys to sell the team, as they are behind hiring, promoting and paying coaches Z & A. :rolleyes: Don't you people EVER give it a freakin' rest?? If the Steelers give up 17 or more points to the Bears this Sunday, which probably won't happen - are you going to call for Dick Lebeau's head on a platter too?

I'll spell it out again . . . .

E X E C U T I O N

AMEN.

Venom
09-16-2009, 07:57 AM
Ughhh,, after reading that post , I dont feel well

steelpride12
09-16-2009, 08:04 AM
Its not up to Tomlin how the OL play and the running back's as well. Just like what HTG stated it's all about execution of the play and whether the players execute right or not. It was the first game of the season and everything will get worked out right.

xfl2001fan
09-16-2009, 08:06 AM
Let's see...Coach Z and BA were on a Browns team with no talent (particularly on the offensive line)...where our best WR was Kevin Johnson (who might crack most team's #2 spot, at best) and our running back was a committe of failure to the tune of Willie Green, Ben Gay and others.

At some point in time...you have to have enought talent to win...and the Browns have been lacking that since the early-mid 90's.

Understand this (from a Browns fan perspective.)

NO COACH WOULD HAVE WON CONSISTENTLY WITH THE BROWNS ROSTER (particularly 2001-2004)!!!

Yes, it's all caps so that I can get your attention.

Tomlin couldn't have done it, Cowher couldnt' have done it, Bill Walsh couldn't have done it, nobody.

mmalone
09-16-2009, 08:28 AM
I'll spell it out again . . . .

E X E C U T I O N

AMEN.

Of course its execution of the plays...

Flip side is... We need to call the plays that we can execute for that game and the team were playing. And adjust quickly when its not working so we can start executing the plays. Not take 2 qtrs of head banging to get to the executing part........

thats the play calling they plan all week before the game. they dont plan execution..

if the plays and game plan doesnt work and we cant execute ... change the plan quickly... so we can execute...

yes: EXECUTION..

We have the best players, the best OLINE let Ben throw for 363 yards, thats executing...

The OLINE didnt let the runners run, Titans had 9 in the box.
So you change the plays to adjust to the defense right?????

then we execute... to our advantage. 363 in the air.

Then we win. which we do. we just change and adjust to slow..
thats the deal i see.

To me Arians is slow to change.. maybe he needs to drink a bit before the game.
he did say last week in the paper. i am stubborn..... well get over it... and change.
be less stubborn and more flexible..

:tt::tt::tt::tt::tt::tt::tt:

X-Terminator
09-16-2009, 08:38 AM
Of course its execution of the plays...

Flip side is... We need to call the plays that we can execute for that game and the team were playing. And adjust quickly when its not working so we can start executing the plays. Not take 2 qtrs of head banging to get to the executing part........

thats the play calling they plan all week before the game. they dont plan execution..

if the plays and game plan doesnt work and we cant execute ... change the plan quickly... so we can execute...

yes: EXECUTION..

We have the best players, the best OLINE let Ben throw for 363 yards, thats executing...

The OLINE didnt let the runners run, Titans had 9 in the box.
So you change the plays to adjust to the defense right?????

then we execute... to our advantage. 363 in the air.

Then we win. which we do. we just change and adjust to slow..
thats the deal i see.

To me Arians is slow to change.. maybe he needs to drink a bit before the game.
he did say last week in the paper. i am stubborn..... well get over it... and change.
be less stubborn and more flexible..

:tt::tt::tt::tt::tt::tt::tt:

Maybe YOU need to drink before you watch a game.

I swear to God, this is really, really getting old. I'd love to see what would happen if, in your mind, he actually called a good game. Would you give him any credit? Somehow, I doubt it.

The single-minded mentality of the Arians haters just mystifies me. As if he is the Lord and Master over everything that is wrong with the offense. The bottom line is this - EVERYTHING starts up front. If the hogs up front aren't getting the job done, the rest of the offense suffers for it. It makes it a little difficult to execute (there's that word again) the plays when the OL is a turnstile. It is NOT always the fault of the OC, but yet, to you and other Steelers fans, that's the FIRST and LAST person who gets blamed.

Ridiculous. Just like this thread.

The Lakelander
09-16-2009, 08:42 AM
Of course its execution of the plays...

Flip side is... We need to call the plays that we can execute for that game and the team were playing. And adjust quickly when its not working so we can start executing the plays. Not take 2 qtrs of head banging to get to the executing part........

thats the play calling they plan all week before the game. they dont plan execution..

if the plays and game plan doesnt work and we cant execute ... change the plan quickly... so we can execute...

yes: EXECUTION..

We have the best players, the best OLINE let Ben throw for 363 yards, thats executing...

The OLINE didnt let the runners run, Titans had 9 in the box.
So you change the plays to adjust to the defense right?????

then we execute... to our advantage. 363 in the air.

Then we win. which we do. we just change and adjust to slow..
thats the deal i see.

To me Arians is slow to change.. maybe he needs to drink a bit before the game.
he did say last week in the paper. i am stubborn..... well get over it... and change.
be less stubborn and more flexible..

:tt::tt::tt::tt::tt::tt::tt:



You've totally taken BA out of context.

He said he was stubborn and he was referring to his sticking with the run for several extra plays when it was clear the run was being shut down. Doesn't that show that BA wants to run it?

In the 2nd half Ben came out firing and we win that game in regulation if Hines doesn't get stripped of the football.

BA's in-game adjustments and the tremendous execution in the pass game ... from the o-line to the WR's to Ben being accurate ... is exactly what beat Tennessee.

BA deserves credit ... not persecution.

He's a damned genius! :wave:

Fire Haley
09-16-2009, 08:47 AM
I bet all our problems would be solved if only The Whiz was our HC.

HometownGal
09-16-2009, 08:58 AM
I think I'll forward the link to this thread to the Steelers FO so they can see for themselves what absolute geniuses we have here at SF. :thumbsup: When a couple of you get the call to come in to interview for the HC, OLC and OC positions, you can thank me then. :drink: :laughing:

mmalone
09-16-2009, 09:03 AM
You've totally taken BA out of context.

He said he was stubborn and he was referring to his sticking with the run for several extra plays when it was clear the run was being shut down. Doesn't that show that BA wants to run it?

In the 2nd half Ben came out firing and we win that game in regulation if Hines doesn't get stripped of the football.

BA's in-game adjustments and the tremendous execution in the pass game ... from the o-line to the WR's to Ben being accurate ... is exactly what beat Tennessee.

BA deserves credit ... not persecution.

He's a damned genius! :wave:

who was i persecuting...????

i said arians changes to slow...

we changed, we won... he did good...

:drink::drink::drink::drink::drink:

Indo
09-16-2009, 09:13 AM
There are Lies,
Damn Lies,
and Statistics

The Lakelander
09-16-2009, 09:14 AM
Arians wants to commit to the run. Really he does.

So does Tomlin.

But then they would (even so slightly) marginalize Big Ben, who is the reason we win football games. Ben makes this offense what it is. He's a freak.

Arians and Tomlin both get that!

Arians is a fantastic pass game coordinator. He has a track record in the pass game.

In Ben We Trust! :tt:

The_WARDen
09-16-2009, 09:46 AM
Arians wants to commit to the run. Really he does.

So does Tomlin.

But then they would (even so slightly) marginalize Big Ben, who is the reason we win football games. Ben makes this offense what it is. He's a freak.

Arians and Tomlin both get that!

Arians is a fantastic pass game coordinator. He has a track record in the pass game.

In Ben We Trust! :tt:

Personally, I enjoy watching Ben dominate. The weapons in the pass game are exciting.
I think they should stop pretending to be a "running team" and come out in a no huddle or something. Use the pass to setup the run later.

revefsreleets
09-16-2009, 09:58 AM
(Sigh)

Fire Haley
09-16-2009, 09:58 AM
Look at that pass blocking....All day to throw


WK 1 Playbook: Big Ben in the pocket

Mike Mayock breaks down why Ben Roethlisberger is so effective in the pocket.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/pittsburgh-steelers/09000d5d812a7059/WK-1-Playbook-Big-Ben-in-the-pocket

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-16-2009, 10:21 AM
Gonzo ain't gonna like this at all. See, as he explained it to me, we don't "zone" block. And it was only my cluelessness and lack of deductive reasoning that led me to believe that we did. But I'm sure glad he cleared that up cuz day-ham I was confused.

Vincent, sorry if I came off bad that day and hopefully we are all good.

To clear things up, the Steelers are not a "zone blocking offense" any more than we are a "Cover 2 Defense". While the Steelers offense does zone block at times, just like the defense plays some cover 2........to say that Zeirline runs a zone blocking scheme is completely wrong.

Zone blocking involves lighter and more athletic linemen that all move in unison one direction. I think Chester Pitts of Houston described Alex Gibbs ZBS as a group of elephants moving together while each holding the others tail with its trunk. (Alex Gibbs is to Zone blocking what Dick Lebeau is to Zone Blitz).

Other than the assertion that the Steelers are a zone block offense, I agree with the OP and posted similarly last year that the last place Coach Z was successful was at the U of Cincinatti. I like his mentality of technique and teaching, but think he may not be what works best in the NFL. I would not be surprised to see Harold Goodwin replace him by week 9 if the run game doesnt improve.......but its not the steeler way.

SteelMember
09-16-2009, 10:27 AM
Zierlein was the offensive line coach at the University of Cincinnati (1997-2000) when Tomlin was the Bearcats' secondary coach and also was the Browns' offensive line coach in 2001-04 when Arians was the offensive coordinator.

they are all buddies.

Ben and Bruce are buddies. :noidea:

BlastFurnace
09-16-2009, 11:09 AM
I think I'll forward the link to this thread to the Steelers FO so they can see for themselves what absolute geniuses we have here at SF. :thumbsup: When a couple of you get the call to come in to interview for the HC, OLC and OC positions, you can thank me then. :drink: :laughing:

LOL...I'm far from a genius...but if the Steelers are hiring for any positions...let me know.

I'd love to work for the Rooney's.

SteelC7
09-16-2009, 11:21 AM
wow hes horrible, we need to fire him after the season, and if we have another 50 sack season, i think tomlin will get rid of him

HometownGal
09-16-2009, 12:08 PM
http://teachers.henrico.k12.va.us/godwin/hoen_l/artinsight1/art3projects/ComputerArtVisualPuns/ArtistWorks/Photoshop%20Visual%20Puns/BoneHead.jpg

LVSteelersfan
09-16-2009, 01:15 PM
I am no football expert, but anyone can see that there is no cohesion in the offensive line's play. I know we are stuck with Arians and Zierlien<sp> but it doesn't mean we have to like it. Just because we still win is no excuse. You need to play to your team's strengths instead of trying to force a game plan in week after week that doesn't work. Quick hitters EARLY IN THE GAME will soften up that 8 and 9 in the box crap we keep seeing. No one can run against that. It should be extremely obvious to Arians when the other team has 8 or 9 in the box continuously. We have the WRs and TE to make them pay for that just like the Patsies and Colts do. Back them up with passing plays and screens and then the running game will start to work. Theoretically. And no, I don't want the job. I just want Arians and company to DO THEIR JOB.

T Bradshaw
09-16-2009, 01:28 PM
How good is Larry Zierlein?
Got his first coaching job in the NFL when he was 56 years old, thats how good he is.

mmalone
09-16-2009, 01:50 PM
Arians wants to commit to the run. Really he does.

So does Tomlin.

But then they would (even so slightly) marginalize Big Ben, who is the reason we win football games. Ben makes this offense what it is. He's a freak.

Arians and Tomlin both get that!

Arians is a fantastic pass game coordinator. He has a track record in the pass game.

In Ben We Trust! :tt:

tomlin said this in the news today:::

“We have to play to our strengths within matchups,” said Tomlin. “We’re willing and able to do that, and that may mean throwing the football around some. Hopefully, that also means we’re capable of running it. But at the end of the day, the ‘W’ is what we seek.”

:tt::tt::tt:

i guess its how you say it???

MasterOfPuppets
09-16-2009, 02:19 PM
i blame the FO for not drafting good linemen... is it the coaches fault when the line gets manhandled and pushed into the backfield ? :noidea: those bums are flat out whiffing blocks and being owned by the Dlines , thats why they only find success against the crappier D's in the league. your only as good as the tools you got to work with ( no pun intended )...... ( scratch that.. actually it was )

revefsreleets
09-16-2009, 02:24 PM
I must say, this is HIGHLY unusual behavior...we won AND the coaches catching blame? They usually only get the blame after a loss, and of course the players get credit for wins...

HometownGal
09-16-2009, 02:30 PM
i blame the FO for not drafting good linemen... is it the coaches fault when the line gets manhandled and pushed into the backfield ? :noidea: those bums are flat out whiffing blocks and being owned by the Dlines , thats why they only find success against the crappier D's in the league. your only as good as the tools you got to work with ( no pun intended )...... ( scratch that.. actually it was )

http://blogs.smh.com.au/mashup/images/applause.gif


A valiant effort, MOP, and I think the majority of those involved in this thread would agree with you 100% (including me), but these boo-birds and habitual B & M'ers can't help themselves, sadly. They attempt to hide their lack of knowledge and understanding of the mechanics of the game and the system by scapegoating someone - anyone - and this after a 7th Lombardi and an opening day win last Thursday night. :banging:

I dread reading this board after a loss. :horror:

TheWarDen86
09-16-2009, 02:32 PM
Wow. I finally looked at this thread figuring it was just a "I blame Tomlin ..... for all our success." But this??

Gimme a break.

HometownGal
09-16-2009, 02:40 PM
But at the end of the day, the ‘W’ is what we seek.”

:tt::tt::tt:

i guess its how you say it???

See - even Coach T agrees that the W is what really matters when that final second ticks off the clock.

Seems to me Tomlin's statement ends the bitch and moan brigade around here. :thumbsup:

Indo
09-16-2009, 02:52 PM
http://blogs.smh.com.au/mashup/images/applause.gif


A valiant effort, MOP, and I think the majority of those involved in this thread would agree with you 100% (including me), but these boo-birds and habitual B & M'ers can't help themselves, sadly. They attempt to hide their lack of knowledge and understanding of the mechanics of the game and the system by scapegoating someone - anyone - and this after a 7th Lombardi and an opening day win last Thursday night. :banging:

I dread reading this board after a loss. :horror:

OK...this one is too easy so...

7TH Lombardi? You can't count Lord Stanley's Cup as a Lombardi!:toofunny:

TheWarDen86
09-16-2009, 03:04 PM
OK...this one is too easy so...

7TH Lombardi? You can't count Lord Stanley's Cup as a Lombardi!:toofunny:

Well, we really should have won Super Bowl XXX. :tt02:

steelreserve
09-16-2009, 03:06 PM
Honestly, I have no idea how much Zeirlein is to blame for any of the OL/running game problems. But if he was a really great coach, I get the feeling he'd be doing a lot better than this. And even if we really DID have shitty linemen, people would be giving him rave reviews for getting the most out of his players.

As it is, I don't hear any of that -- I hear about how we have one guy (Starks) with the size and ability to be one of the best in the league, but instead he can't find himself ... we have another guy (Kemo) with amazing raw talent, but he can never seem to convert his potential into results ... and another guy (Colon) who is pretty decent but has a couple of holes in his game, and instead of figuring out how to adjust and compensate for his shortcomings, he's been having the same problems over and over for three years in a row. Then we've got a couple of guys like Hartwig and Essex who have been OK but flat, and most of our draft picks (Urbik, Hills, Capizzi) who have progressed slowly at best. Do those sound like the kinds of things that could be fixed by a decent OL coach?

Come to think of it, maybe Zeirlein does suck.

HometownGal
09-16-2009, 04:51 PM
OK...this one is too easy so...

7TH Lombardi? You can't count Lord Stanley's Cup as a Lombardi!:toofunny:

Oops - typo. :couch: :chuckle:

You know what I meant. :mallet:

Steelboy84
09-16-2009, 05:43 PM
This was a great post! We need to get back to our power running game roots!

Steelers & I
09-17-2009, 01:19 AM
That's the answer people, it's all falls into the lap of "EXECUTION"! No matter how difficult the task may be, go out, rent a mule, demand that the mule complete tasks that it's not capable of. Beat the hell out of it while yelling, EXECUTE! EXECUTE! EXECUTE! EXECUTE! If you do a piss poor job with the task at hand, you can always blame the mule for lack of execution.

X-Terminator
09-17-2009, 02:15 AM
That's the answer people, it's all falls into the lap of "EXECUTION"! No matter how difficult the task may be, go out, rent a mule, demand that the mule complete tasks that it's not capable of. Beat the hell out of it while yelling, EXECUTE! EXECUTE! EXECUTE! EXECUTE! If you do a piss poor job with the task at hand, you can always blame the mule for lack of execution.

So in other words, you're saying that execution has no bearing whatsoever on the success or failure of the offense. The coaching staff has to bear all of the blame no matter what, and the players get a free pass.

Right?

Steelers & I
09-17-2009, 04:51 AM
So in other words, you're saying that execution has no bearing whatsoever on the success or failure of the offense. The coaching staff has to bear all of the blame no matter what, and the players get a free pass.

Right?


Did I say all of that? No, I'm simply saying that after SEVERAL failed attempts, Arians is well aware that the Steelers offensive line isn't capable of producing an effective rushing attack from that damn singleback formation that he's so fond of running out of. As we've witnessed for nearly 2 years now, a run play from the singleback formation is essentially a wasted down but Arians continues to dial it up. Beat that mule until it executes Bruce.

The_WARDen
09-17-2009, 07:17 AM
This was a great post! We need to get back to our power running game roots!

Why? Ben & the receiving corps are better than the RBs they have. I'd rather play to the strengths.

HometownGal
09-17-2009, 07:26 AM
Did I say all of that? No, I'm simply saying that after SEVERAL failed attempts, Arians is well aware that the Steelers offensive line isn't capable of producing an effective rushing attack from that damn singleback formation that he's so fond of running out of. As we've witnessed for nearly 2 years now, a run play from the singleback formation is essentially a wasted down but Arians continues to dial it up. Beat that mule until it executes Bruce.

Did you and the other Arians bashers around here ever stop and think that maybe - just MAYBE - our OL is subpar and just can't handle the DL's they're up against most games? :banging: These guys practice these plays over and over again in practice and if I'm a bettin' person, which I am, I'd say that if Coaches T, Z & A saw in practice that these plays weren't working, they'd nuke 'em from the playbook and work with something else.

As I've said many times before - I'm a huge supporter of having a FB to lead the way for our rushing attack and that is the only phase of BA's game plan that I totally disagree with. However, we haven't had a reliable FB since Dan Kreider was sent packing at the end of the 2007 season.

mmalone
09-17-2009, 07:41 AM
Did I say all of that? No, I'm simply saying that after SEVERAL failed attempts, Arians is well aware that the Steelers offensive line isn't capable of producing an effective rushing attack from that damn singleback formation that he's so fond of running out of. As we've witnessed for nearly 2 years now, a run play from the singleback formation is essentially a wasted down but Arians continues to dial it up. Beat that mule until it executes Bruce.

i just got yelled at about this the other day.

attack the weakness of the other defense. is the no. 1 goal.

if they CAN stop our run game, PASS, like we did last week for 363.

just make the switch to the new attack plan faster.... dont beat the hell out of a game plan that isnt working that day. thats the stubborn mule part....:doh:

the run game will be better another day. like the browns game.. Adrian had a field day.

if we cant pass or run on any given day.. we will probably lose that game... :popcorn:

but our team is too good to get stopped on both levels.

:tt::tt:

Vincent
09-17-2009, 09:22 AM
Vincent, sorry if I came off bad that day and hopefully we are all good.

To clear things up, the Steelers are not a "zone blocking offense" any more than we are a "Cover 2 Defense". While the Steelers offense does zone block at times, just like the defense plays some cover 2........to say that Zeirline runs a zone blocking scheme is completely wrong.

Zone blocking involves lighter and more athletic linemen that all move in unison one direction. I think Chester Pitts of Houston described Alex Gibbs ZBS as a group of elephants moving together while each holding the others tail with its trunk. (Alex Gibbs is to Zone blocking what Dick Lebeau is to Zone Blitz).

Other than the assertion that the Steelers are a zone block offense, I agree with the OP and posted similarly last year that the last place Coach Z was successful was at the U of Cincinatti. I like his mentality of technique and teaching, but think he may not be what works best in the NFL. I would not be surprised to see Harold Goodwin replace him by week 9 if the run game doesnt improve.......but its not the steeler way.

We're fine. Humor.

We probably agree violently on 90% of this issue. To partially borrow from Yogi, the other half is semantics.

Regardless of what one labels the scheme, it seems to not work for this bunch. After two plus years, we should be adjusting more.

The Hogs model is good here because our personnel (sans Riggo) are similar.

vasteeler
09-17-2009, 10:24 AM
http://blogs.smh.com.au/mashup/images/applause.gif


A valiant effort, MOP, and I think the majority of those involved in this thread would agree with you 100% (including me), but these boo-birds and habitual B & M'ers can't help themselves, sadly. They attempt to hide their lack of knowledge and understanding of the mechanics of the game and the system by scapegoating someone - anyone - and this after a 7th Lombardi and an opening day win last Thursday night. :banging:

I dread reading this board after a loss. :horror:

i hear you i dont even log on for a couple of days after a loss.

The Lakelander
09-17-2009, 10:48 AM
I see NFL teams running out of a single-back formation all the time. If their RB's can thrive out of that set, why can't ours?

Our RB's have plenty of burst.

I don't buy the blocking thing ... it's still body on body in there and our O-line has some decent size and some decent nastiness.

If we are not a "zone blocking" team, as some here suggest, then we have no excuse to point fingers at an O-Line with the size and strength of our players. They should be doing their jobs fine against smaller 4-3 defensive fronts ... even dominating the run!

If we are a "zone blocking" team, it's up to the RB's to find the soft spot as the pressure forms into a receding O-line. In this scenario the O-line is not exploding into the defensive meat ... the defense is exploding into our guys and the penetration is going to be there somewhere along the o-line on virtually every play.

So what is it?

The O-line?

The RB's?

Arians play calling?

Why can't we get past the line of scrimmage in 2009?

Someone among the throngs of observers has to have a realistic view point around here. :noidea:

revefsreleets
09-17-2009, 10:50 AM
Hmmm...so I guess we should just come out and throw 100 passes a game when team stacks against the run. Yeah, that'll show 'em! And who cares if we execute or not, since the other teams personnel and schemes have nothing to do with anything at all, right? I mean, it's not like THEIR defensive coaches are spending 100 hours the previous week formulating ways to stop us, correct?

Morons:banging:

mmalone
09-17-2009, 11:04 AM
Hmmm...so I guess we should just come out and throw 100 passes a game when team stacks against the run. Yeah, that'll show 'em! And who cares if we execute or not, since the other teams personnel and schemes have nothing to do with anything at all, right? I mean, it's not like THEIR defensive coaches are spending 100 hours the previous week formulating ways to stop us, correct?

Morons:banging:

morons??

we have been saying this for two days in reverse. change our plan to break the defenses attack that they planned, we just need to change our offense faster then they adjust to us on defense??

:banging::banging::banging:

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-17-2009, 11:23 AM
We're fine. Humor.

We probably agree violently on 90% of this issue. To partially borrow from Yogi, the other half is semantics.

Regardless of what one labels the scheme, it seems to not work for this bunch. After two plus years, we should be adjusting more.

The Hogs model is good here because our personnel (sans Riggo) are similar.

Yeah, I just think that part of this is execution but the larger part could very well be the coaching of Larry Z. I think we should be able to run fine with the big O linemen we have.

Chuck Noll used to say that "fear is something that happens when you don't know what you are doing". I think on many occasions the O line doesnt look like they know what they are doing and have some fear and disbelief in their eyes. I think Coach Z isnt doing enough to define the blocking assignments and draw up better blocks.

Honestly, on a play to the right against a 4-3, I would like to see Colon and Stapleton double on the DT, Spaeth on their right seal the DE and then pull Kemo and Miller from the left to lead on the LB. More use of angles, traps rather than straight up 1 on 1 blocking.

mmalone
09-17-2009, 11:26 AM
heres a good one from cleveland ohio .

i guess the browns did the wildcat twice on the goal line.... but it didnt work...

so the joke line in a cleveland post was:

Deposed offensive coordinator Bruce Arians must have come back to the lakefront. The Wildcat formation was used twice in a row in a goal line situation?

they still love him there too.

ouch....

fansince'76
09-17-2009, 11:35 AM
heres a good one from cleveland ohio .

i guess the browns did the wildcat twice on the goal line.... but it didnt work...

so the joke line in a cleveland post was:

Deposed offensive coordinator Bruce Arians must have come back to the lakefront. The Wildcat formation was used twice in a row in a goal line situation?

they still love him there too.

ouch....

And they still hate Belicheat's guts too, yet most outside of the Cleveland metro area (particularly the media) hail him as some kind of football genius who can turn shit into gold. Point please, besides another mindless Arians-bashing post? :yawn:

revefsreleets
09-17-2009, 11:37 AM
Quotes from Cleveland fans? Please...

And my new favorite is "Change our plan FASTER than they adjust to us".

Yep, it's just that easy...just like golf is easy...hey, all you're doing is hitting the little ball into the hole, how hard can THAT be?

For the millionth time, this is chess, not checkers, and you're not even up to checkers level yet, tossing out some "Go, Fish" solutions to problems you have not even the faintest idea of the complexity of...

xfl2001fan
09-17-2009, 11:48 AM
Tomlin failed to realize we do not have the right players to run this system, he never should have hired a coach who has failed, numbers dont lie.

Yes they do.

3 men are returning from a long business trip and check into the only motel in a small town.

The manager had accidentally overbooked and had only 1 room left, which costed $30. Each man paid $10 towards the bill and one guy grabbed a cot, while the other two slept on the beds in the room.

Shortly after they left for the room, the manager decided he was going to give them a discount for their troubles and asked the bellhop to give them back $5.

On his way to the room, the bellhop realized that there was no way he could split $5 evenly between three men, so he instead gave them $3 and kept two for himself.

Since each man was give $1 dollar back, they had (essentially) only paid $9 each for the room. (10-1 = 9)

9 x 3 = 27. The Bellhop kept $2 for himself. 27+2 = 29.

Where's the missing dollar?

Numbers can lie...you need to look at the story behind the numbers before you can just say they don't lie.

Coach Z and Coach Arians worked with far inferior talent in Cleveland. Their skills/coaching styles brought your city it's 6th title (a huge achievement) and the 2nd in 4 years. The coaching style/game plan has turned Santonio Holmes into a star player alongside the ever impressive Hines Ward. It's turned Big Ben into a legit Top-3 QB. Maybe you dream of days running the big back into the line over and over again. I don't recall the Bus winning a ring until Big Ben came into the picture though. It's a QB league, no matter how much the adage goes about needing to be able to run the ball or stop the run.

stlrtruck
09-17-2009, 12:21 PM
I blame Tomlin too!

I blame him for the SIXTH LOMBARDI residing with the Pittsburgh Steelers

The_WARDen
09-17-2009, 12:24 PM
Yes they do.

3 men are returning from a long business trip and check into the only motel in a small town.

The manager had accidentally overbooked and had only 1 room left, which costed $30. Each man paid $10 towards the bill and one guy grabbed a cot, while the other two slept on the beds in the room.

Shortly after they left for the room, the manager decided he was going to give them a discount for their troubles and asked the bellhop to give them back $5.

On his way to the room, the bellhop realized that there was no way he could split $5 evenly between three men, so he instead gave them $3 and kept two for himself.

Since each man was give $1 dollar back, they had (essentially) only paid $9 each for the room. (10-1 = 9)

9 x 3 = 27. The Bellhop kept $2 for himself. 27+2 = 29.

Where's the missing dollar?

Numbers can lie...you need to look at the story behind the numbers before you can just say they don't lie.

Coach Z and Coach Arians worked with far inferior talent in Cleveland. Their skills/coaching styles brought your city it's 6th title (a huge achievement) and the 2nd in 4 years. The coaching style/game plan has turned Santonio Holmes into a star player alongside the ever impressive Hines Ward. It's turned Big Ben into a legit Top-3 QB. Maybe you dream of days running the big back into the line over and over again. I don't recall the Bus winning a ring until Big Ben came into the picture though. It's a QB league, no matter how much the adage goes about needing to be able to run the ball or stop the run.


:applaudit:

mmalone
09-17-2009, 12:55 PM
Quotes from Cleveland fans? Please...

And my new favorite is "Change our plan FASTER than they adjust to us".

Yep, it's just that easy...just like golf is easy...hey, all you're doing is hitting the little ball into the hole, how hard can THAT be?

For the millionth time, this is chess, not checkers, and you're not even up to checkers level yet, tossing out some "Go, Fish" solutions to problems you have not even the faintest idea of the complexity of...

ok, lets just keep running up the middle and never around the ends with the quickest RB's in the league????

dumb ass you are.... you say the same crap over and over too and its all pointless..
no answers to anything .. you just crap on peoples opinions....

xfl2001fan
09-17-2009, 01:05 PM
ok, lets just keep running up the middle and never around the ends with the quickest RB's in the league????

dumb ass you are.... you say the same crap over and over too and its all pointless..
no answers to anything .. you just crap on peoples opinions....

And your response has been any better? Your opinion that Coach Tomlin (SB winning coach) and his coaching staff (SB winning coaching staff) are doing something wrong is supposed to be respected? PUHLEEZE. Quit your whining. You have no idea how good you have it.

mmalone
09-17-2009, 01:05 PM
hers bens approach to your checkers game mentality:

bens quote today:

“At the same time if we are not getting things done in the run game, we have to make plays in the passing game. We showed that. We are not going to shy away from who we have been. We are going to keep trying it and trying it. If we can ‘t have success with it we are going to see if we can make plays in the passing game to offset it.”

xfl2001fan
09-17-2009, 01:16 PM
hers bens approach to your checkers game mentality:

bens quote today:

“At the same time if we are not getting things done in the run game, we have to make plays in the passing game. We showed that. We are not going to shy away from who we have been. We are going to keep trying it and trying it. If we can ‘t have success with it we are going to see if we can make plays in the passing game to offset it.”

Which is why many others (inlcuding Revs and I) don't understand where the OP is coming off at.

You adjust the game plan based on your players strengths. You are not a power running team. You can't be a power running team. You're not built to be a power running team. Coach BA and Coach Z are putting together an offense that is capable of lighting up nearly every defense in the league for 300+ yards passing. Look at Tennessee, one of the best defenses in the league not residing in Pittsburgh. Still got owned in the passing game.

For anyone to suggest you fire the coaches who won you a Superbowl is moronic to the nth degree. For anyone here to suggest they do something different than what is apparently working is moronic to the nth degree. I'll tell you this, I wish that the Rooney's would listen to some of the moronic posts I see on here...because as a Browns fan, if you armchair coaches/GMs were in control, we wouldn't have this huge losing streak to you guys.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-17-2009, 01:17 PM
ok, lets just keep running up the middle and never around the ends with the quickest RB's in the league????
....

Honestly, that is a concept that does not work in the NFL. Its why Reggie Bush and his 4.33 -40 speed doesnt get him around the ends. You HAVE to run North-South in the NFL.

In college, the hashmarks are wider and if the ball is on the left hash, you can run speedsters like Parker, Bush, McFadden on a sweep wide. In the NFL, the hashmarks are in the middle and there is less opportunity to run wide.

Also, if you think that in college most defenders were the best at their highschool, while in the NFL, most defenders were the best in their Conference. In essence, EVERYBODY in the NFL was on scholarship, so just trying to outrun defenses "around the ends" isn't gonna work.

Indo
09-17-2009, 01:19 PM
Yes they do.

3 men are returning from a long business trip and check into the only motel in a small town.

The manager had accidentally overbooked and had only 1 room left, which costed $30. Each man paid $10 towards the bill and one guy grabbed a cot, while the other two slept on the beds in the room.

Shortly after they left for the room, the manager decided he was going to give them a discount for their troubles and asked the bellhop to give them back $5.

On his way to the room, the bellhop realized that there was no way he could split $5 evenly between three men, so he instead gave them $3 and kept two for himself.

Since each man was give $1 dollar back, they had (essentially) only paid $9 each for the room. (10-1 = 9)

9 x 3 = 27. The Bellhop kept $2 for himself. 27+2 = 29.

Where's the missing dollar?

Numbers can lie...you need to look at the story behind the numbers before you can just say they don't lie.

Coach Z and Coach Arians worked with far inferior talent in Cleveland. Their skills/coaching styles brought your city it's 6th title (a huge achievement) and the 2nd in 4 years. The coaching style/game plan has turned Santonio Holmes into a star player alongside the ever impressive Hines Ward. It's turned Big Ben into a legit Top-3 QB. Maybe you dream of days running the big back into the line over and over again. I don't recall the Bus winning a ring until Big Ben came into the picture though. It's a QB league, no matter how much the adage goes about needing to be able to run the ball or stop the run.

A REALLY good example but, I'm afraid, way too sophisticated for this crowd!

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-17-2009, 01:23 PM
Which is why many others (inlcuding Revs and I) don't understand where the OP is coming off at.

You adjust the game plan based on your players strengths. You are not a power running team. You can't be a power running team. You're not built to be a power running team. Coach BA and Coach Z are putting together an offense that is capable of lighting up nearly every defense in the league for 300+ yards passing. Look at Tennessee, one of the best defenses in the league not residing in Pittsburgh. Still got owned in the passing game.

.

Most coaches have their own systems and game plan based on what that system is supposed to be productive at. Bill Walsh-short passing game, Mike Heimerdinger- power running and play action, Bruce Arians- 3TE, multiple wideouts and pass or run out of similar formations.

I think the OP is blaming Tomlin for Hiring an O line coach with no real track record of successful running teams. I think the point is that a better O line coach could help BA's offense be more productive by coaching up the O line to do a better job in run blocking.

Its a valid point since Zeirline's most productive O line at running the football was last at the University of Cincinatti.

sherlock
09-17-2009, 01:25 PM
Could they not try to use Willie as they often do with Memo.:noidea:
Is it called pass in motion?:noidea:
If Willie could gain a yard or two head-start he would be hard to catch.:noidea:
I`ve no idea by the way!:noidea::laughing:

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-17-2009, 01:38 PM
Could they not try to use Willie as they often do with Memo.:noidea:
Is it called pass in motion?:noidea:
If Willie could gain a yard or two head-start he would be hard to catch.:noidea:
I`ve no idea by the way!:noidea::laughing:

Chap, I think you lost me on that one. Maybe you are thinking "why dont they pass it to Parker on a swing-pass?" Parker isnt that great of a receiver as Moore. I honestly think Parker likes to read his blocks instead of being a single back that has to pick a hole.

Basically, "reading a block" is when the RB follows the blocker(either FB or lineman) and when the blocker hits the defender, he naturally turns one way and "seals" the defender from the play.

The RB then wants to run right off the blockers backside. The worst thing a lead blocker can do is block straight, as the RB cant run over his back. The lead blocker needs to meet the defender in the hole and hit him so he is turned left or right and the RB can "run off his butt". Watch this week if Miller or Kemo lead blocks and you will see the RB almost coasting until he sees which way they turn their defender. Then he runs right by their butt.

If Ben didnt turn into Mendenhall last thursday, that play was gonna go for 10 yards +. It was blocked up well. :doh:

sherlock
09-17-2009, 01:50 PM
Chap, I think you lost me on that one. Maybe you are thinking "why dont they pass it to Parker on a swing-pass?" Parker isnt that great of a receiver as Moore. I honestly think Parker likes to read his blocks instead of being a single back that has to pick a hole.

I don`t really know what I meant Gonzo..HAHA!
It`s just that Ben nearly always hands off the ball to Willie whereas he often passes the ball to Moore up field as if he`s a TE or WR...is that what you mean by a swing-pass?
But if like you say FWP can`t catch then it`s a no-go I guess.

SteelMember
09-17-2009, 02:05 PM
If Ben didnt turn into Mendenhall last thursday, that play was gonna go for 10 yards +. It was blocked up well. :doh:

I remember that play. There was certainly a disconnect there. Ben looked to be handing off for him to go left, and he was breaking to Ben's right before the point of exchange.

He needs more carries. I hope he gets 10 or more this week.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-17-2009, 02:09 PM
I remember that play. There was certainly a disconnect there. Ben looked to be handing off for him to go left, and he was breaking to Ben's right before the point of exchange.

He needs more carries. I hope he gets 10 or more this week.

Yeah....if you watched the replay of that one, Essex actually swims over his defender to get to a LB and the guy Essex let go was supposed to get blocked by Kemo or Starks who was pulling from the left.

Ben was probably supposed to pivot and step left, then handoff right as almost a counter play. The hole was gonna be right over the gap between Hartwig-Essex and the trap block was gonna be HUGE. :jawdrop:

xfl2001fan
09-17-2009, 02:09 PM
Most coaches have their own systems and game plan based on what that system is supposed to be productive at. Bill Walsh-short passing game, Mike Heimerdinger- power running and play action, Bruce Arians- 3TE, multiple wideouts and pass or run out of similar formations.

I think the OP is blaming Tomlin for Hiring an O line coach with no real track record of successful running teams. I think the point is that a better O line coach could help BA's offense be more productive by coaching up the O line to do a better job in run blocking.

Its a valid point since Zeirline's most productive O line at running the football was last at the University of Cincinatti.

With the salary cap...it's all about where you have talent.

In the case of the Steelers, the defense has the biggest precedent, there's stars at the QB, WR and TE spot...and your HB (FWP) was once considered a star. That leaves talent a bit thinner at the O-line. If you're going to blame someone for the O-line issues, blame the GM (not Coach Tomlin, Coach Z or Coach BA) because the lack of drafting O-lineman goes back before any of them were in their respective positions.

I don't understand how you can blame a coach (or coaching staff) for the inability to run against Tennessee (one of the best run defenses in the league)...or even last year...when there were injury issues, etc... At some point in time, you need a primetime back...and FWP has looked fragile lately...Mendenhall is (essentially) a rookie having limited NFL experience and Moore is a third down back. I'm trying to figure out why so many Steelers fans are expecting the Bus/Franco Harris type of performance from HB's that aren't up to their level at this point in time (in regards to health/talent.)

You're not a running team and this isn't a running league. The best running teams have powerbacks...and unless I'm missing something, Mendenhall has yet to prove he qualifies as a legit powerback. FWP is limited by his lack of hands...and Moore will never likely be more than a 3d down back.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-17-2009, 02:13 PM
I don`t really know what I meant Gonzo..HAHA!
It`s just that Ben nearly always hands off the ball to Willie whereas he often passes the ball to Moore up field as if he`s a TE or WR...is that what you mean by a swing-pass?
But if like you say FWP can`t catch then it`s a no-go I guess.

Yeah, when a RB starts in the backfield and swings out laterally to the sideline and turns upfield to get a quick pass (almost in a J motion) its called a "swing pass". Moore is a better receiver than runner, Parker the inverse. Mendenhall is good at both.

In the end, I hope they get it right, but really started to doubt that Zeirline was doing a good job last year and dont see improvement so far in that 1st game. I also think Essex doesnt bend well and get low enough to be a good run blocking guard.......IMO, he is a better OT.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-17-2009, 02:22 PM
With the salary cap...it's all about where you have talent.

In the case of the Steelers, the defense has the biggest precedent, there's stars at the QB, WR and TE spot...and your HB (FWP) was once considered a star. That leaves talent a bit thinner at the O-line. If you're going to blame someone for the O-line issues, blame the GM (not Coach Tomlin, Coach Z or Coach BA) because the lack of drafting O-lineman goes back before any of them were in their respective positions.

I don't understand how you can blame a coach (or coaching staff) for the inability to run against Tennessee (one of the best run defenses in the league)...or even last year...when there were injury issues, etc... At some point in time, you need a primetime back....

With or without salary cap, a coach will bring in the type of players that best fit his system. Arians brought in 3 TE's and guys that can play H back. He got some WR's in Sweed, Wallace and McDonald that remind me of Quincy Morgan, Andre Davis and Dennis Northcutt. Mewelde Moore is a good receiving back that reminds me of Jameel White.

You cite lack of talent as being the reason, but as a coach you should know the value of good coaching in making young talent better. Zeirline had guys like Jeff Faine, Ross Verba and Shaun O'Hara in Cleveland and they underperformed. All 3 went on to be successful on other teams with other coaches.

Coach Z has enough talent on that O line to have them perform better. He should try because at this rate Starks, Kemo, Hartwig are signed for the next 4 years...........Zeirline is at risk of not making it to the end of this year.

Vincent
09-17-2009, 02:33 PM
Honestly, on a play to the right against a 4-3, I would like to see Colon and Stapleton double on the DT, Spaeth on their right seal the DE and then pull Kemo and Miller from the left to lead on the LB. More use of angles, traps rather than straight up 1 on 1 blocking.

The FWP SBXL TD play. The Ds are on to that, but I buy the thinking. We have the horses to do that stuff, although Kemo ain't Alan.

Coach Z and Coach Arians worked with far inferior talent in Cleveland. Their skills/coaching styles brought your city it's 6th title (a huge achievement) and the 2nd in 4 years. The coaching style/game plan has turned Santonio Holmes into a star player alongside the ever impressive Hines Ward. It's turned Big Ben into a legit Top-3 QB. Maybe you dream of days running the big back into the line over and over again. I don't recall the Bus winning a ring until Big Ben came into the picture though. It's a QB league, no matter how much the adage goes about needing to be able to run the ball or stop the run.

Your reasoning is sound as always XL.

I think the old schoolers, myself included, have a "football isn't easy, Buttercup" mentality. "It's hard work and groin pulls". We miss the days of Bus carrying the offense on his back.

http://s647.photobucket.com/albums/uu191/vinnyq/Marv.jpg

http://www.spike.com/video/directv-marv-super/2767467

That was then. This is now. The Lombardis speak for themselves. I would like to see our Franchise QB play for us for 15 or so years though. :tt:

xfl2001fan
09-17-2009, 02:38 PM
With or without salary cap, a coach will bring in the type of players that best fit his system. Arians brought in 3 TE's and guys that can play H back. He got some WR's in Sweed, Wallace and McDonald that remind me of Quincy Morgan, Andre Davis and Dennis Northcutt. Mewelde Moore is a good receiving back that reminds me of Jameel White.

You cite lack of talent as being the reason, but as a coach you should know the value of good coaching in making young talent better. Zeirline had guys like Jeff Faine, Ross Verba and Shaun O'Hara in Cleveland and they underperformed. All 3 went on to be successful on other teams with other coaches.

Coach Z has enough talent on that O line to have them perform better. He should try because at this rate Starks, Kemo, Hartwig are signed for the next 4 years...........Zeirline is at risk of not making it to the end of this year.

Valid points on the talent...but while those guys were good, they weren't great. Jeff Faine played for NO, but he was surrounded by better talent...to inlclude a much better QB who can get rid of the ball quickly. Shaun O'Hara went to the NY Giants who also had much better talent around him. Ross Verba (if I remember right...and I could be wrong) was actually considered a decent guy when he was here...but there were injury issues with him.

It's imperative for a GM/Coach to work together to ensure that they are bringing in the players to fit the system...but if the GM can't...then it's up to the coach to tweak the system to fit the players. You don't have a Bus anymore...and FWP has been dinged up the last few years. You don't have much of a backfield. So, instead of forcing your hand there (though attempts must be made to run the ball) you tweak the system to fit your Franchise QB's strengths. Your lineman are decent, but not great...and with little running game to be threatened by..defenders are better able to tee off on the passing game and are more free to be aggressive in their attack. It's far easier to run block than it is to pass block...especially when your QB is a mover and a shaker. If defenses don't respect the run (because your RB's haven't given them reason to...or because your O-line isn't strong enough to make the defense respect the run) they'll just continue to tee off on Big Ben as a passer and his 43 attempts per game.

Like Revs said...it's Chess, not checkers. You can call each move in chess simple moves...bu the master know how best to implement those moves in a coordinated fashion. You (a general you...not you specifically) may not like their style...but it really should be hard to argue with 6 rings.

revefsreleets
09-17-2009, 02:49 PM
mmalone is slowly driving me insane....he MUST be retarded, it's the ONLY explanation.

Either that, or Arians like cut him from one of his teams or something at some point in the past. There's just no way someone could harbor SO much stupefyingly ignorant hate for one man and NEVER learn anything new to the contrary after reading the opinions of dozens of others who know infinitely more than him on the subject. He's like the last man on the planet who's just CONVINCED that he's right and everyone else is wrong, the Earth really IS flat...

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-17-2009, 02:58 PM
It's far easier to run block than it is to pass block...especially when your QB is a mover and a shaker. If defenses don't respect the run (because your RB's haven't given them reason to...or because your O-line isn't strong enough to make the defense respect the run) they'll just continue to tee off on Big Ben as a passer and his 43 attempts per game.

Like Revs said...it's Chess, not checkers. You can call each move in chess simple moves...bu the master know how best to implement those moves in a coordinated fashion. You (a general you...not you specifically) may not like their style...but it really should be hard to argue with 6 rings.

Have you ever run blocked against a 280lb DT?? I have and there is nothing easy about it. To be successful you have to use the proper footwork, hand placement, know where the hole is supposed to be and be quick and strong. Even then there is no guarantee.

Like you said, its Chess....not checkers. You think that you can simply say "there is no Bettis, the O line is good, but not great and the GM didnt draft talent". That my friend is checkers. I on the other hand think that a good O line coach should be able to teach proper footwork, hand placement and blocking assignments to be productive in the running game.

As a military strategist once said...."we will either find a way, or make one". Hannibal. Zeirline hasnt found a way or made a way to run block well yet. Check Mate.

xfl2001fan
09-17-2009, 03:07 PM
Have you ever run blocked against a 280lb DT?? I have and there is nothing easy about it. To be successful you have to use the proper footwork, hand placement, know where the hole is supposed to be and be quick and strong. Even then there is no guarantee.

Like you said, its Chess....not checkers. You think that you can simply say "there is no Bettis, the O line is good, but not great and the GM didnt draft talent". That my friend is checkers. I on the other hand think that a good O line coach should be able to teach proper footwork, hand placement and blocking assignments to be productive in the running game.

As a military strategist once said...."we will either find a way, or make one". Hannibal. Zeirline hasnt found a way or made a way to run block well yet. Check Mate.

I don't believe that anything at the NFL level is simple...however, when you Run Block (unless is Zone Blocking) you generally know your target and it's about gaining position first...and making them react to you. When pass blocking, you are reacting to the defense. They get to dictate the terms. This is (obviously) an overly simplistic view point...but both forms of blocking require proper footwork, hand placement, assignments...

I'm just saying that there has to be more to this than just a coach. Football is a team sport and it does require a total team effort from the top down. Struggling to run against Tennessee is nothing to balk at. They've got a great run defense. Struggling to run against Pittsburgh is also considered the norm (as is Baltimore.) That's a fact of NFL life right now. Throwing for 363 yards (in a win) against Tennessee is quite the accomplishment...and Coach Z must have been doing something right with his O-line..because Ben doesn't throw for 363 yards with a badly coached O-line. Not against most NFL defenses...let alone one of the premier defenses in the league.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-17-2009, 04:47 PM
I don't believe that anything at the NFL level is simple...however, when you Run Block (unless is Zone Blocking) you generally know your target and it's about gaining position first...and making them react to you. When pass blocking, you are reacting to the defense. They get to dictate the terms. This is (obviously) an overly simplistic view point...but both forms of blocking require proper footwork, hand placement, assignments...

I'm just saying that there has to be more to this than just a coach. Football is a team sport and it does require a total team effort from the top down. Struggling to run against Tennessee is nothing to balk at. They've got a great run defense. Struggling to run against Pittsburgh is also considered the norm (as is Baltimore.) That's a fact of NFL life right now. Throwing for 363 yards (in a win) against Tennessee is quite the accomplishment...and Coach Z must have been doing something right with his O-line..because Ben doesn't throw for 363 yards with a badly coached O-line. Not against most NFL defenses...let alone one of the premier defenses in the league.

Even more simple is in run blocking the O lineman is the hammer, in pass blocking, he is the nail. That is why O linemen prefer to run block.

As for connecting the dots that 363yds of passing = good O line coaching. That is way beneath your intellect. If you watched the Titans you would see they stopped blitzing and rushed 4 and in some cases only 3 down the stretch.

When I see Kemoeatu not recognizing blitzes or stunts, or Max Starks facing a blitzer on either side of him, but blocking nobody, or Hartwig lunging at a linemans legs and missing........it indicates an O line with a lack of understanding of the protections, technique and fundamentals. That is why I have lost confidence in Coach Z.

If I saw the Steelers O line taking the proper steps, angles, staying on their feet and confident of who they block, but just getting manhandled, then I will conclude that they dont have the talent. Instead I see them being so confused they dont block anybody or miss blocks.........that is an indication that the coach isnt getting thru to them.

xfl2001fan
09-17-2009, 05:30 PM
Even more simple is in run blocking the O lineman is the hammer, in pass blocking, he is the nail. That is why O linemen prefer to run block.

As for connecting the dots that 363yds of passing = good O line coaching. That is way beneath your intellect. If you watched the Titans you would see they stopped blitzing and rushed 4 and in some cases only 3 down the stretch.

When I see Kemoeatu not recognizing blitzes or stunts, or Max Starks facing a blitzer on either side of him, but blocking nobody, or Hartwig lunging at a linemans legs and missing........it indicates an O line with a lack of understanding of the protections, technique and fundamentals. That is why I have lost confidence in Coach Z.

If I saw the Steelers O line taking the proper steps, angles, staying on their feet and confident of who they block, but just getting manhandled, then I will conclude that they dont have the talent. Instead I see them being so confused they dont block anybody or miss blocks.........that is an indication that the coach isnt getting thru to them.

I see where you are coming from on all of this...however to throw for 363 yards means that somebody (besides just Ben and the recievers) was doing something right. It was oversimplification to indicate that 363 yards = Good Pass blocking...but it's just as bad as saying 50 sacks = terrible O-line. There are just too many variables involved in it all. At the end of the day, nearly 400 yards passing and a win over one of the better defenses in the league means that everybody on the offense had to be doing a lot more right than they were doing anything wrong.

You mention that the defense stopped blitzing...why? If it was working, they should/would have kept it up. If it wasn't working...they would adjust and try something different (rushing 3 and 4). I didn't watch the 2nd half (and only watched the 1st 2 quarters half heartedly) so I can't say what changed from the first half to the second.

IMO, at the end of the day, they are still supposed to be professional athletes who (for the most part) have spent the majority of their life playing football. You have a veteran offensive line who needs to communicate better between themselves between plays...and an O-line coach to tell them what they are doing wrong.

Jerry Rice rarely dropped passes because he focused on ensuring he kept to the basic fundamentals. IMO, it's on the players to ensure that they practice the fundamentals and maintain those skills...and for the coach to blast them when they get it wrong. Even if they get it wrong...if you are putting your best 5 out there...it's not like the coaches are going to fire a player who isn't getting it done. Not if his replacement can't maintain the standard of play that he has...and...generally speaking...they are backups for a good reason.

xbroughneck
09-17-2009, 05:30 PM
At this point complaining about Z is like complaining about BA. You're beating a dead horse. It doesn't matter if it's true or not because it's not gonna change for at least the foreseeable future.

Bingo. Nothing we can do about it now. It's like having Kordell Stewart as your quarterback and only having Mike Tomzak as the backup. You've gotta ride that horse now come whatever.

I'm rooting for the team, and by default the offensive coordinator.:coffee:

xbroughneck
09-17-2009, 05:33 PM
You're not a running team and this isn't a running league. The best running teams have powerbacks...and unless I'm missing something, Mendenhall has yet to prove he qualifies as a legit powerback. FWP is limited by his lack of hands...and Moore will never likely be more than a 3d down back.

Uhm, you also didn't mention FWP's poor between the tackle vision and reaction time.

But that said, I'd bet if the good running teams in the league ran our offensive sets they would no longer be good running teams. Actually, I'd bet my car on that.

xfl2001fan
09-17-2009, 05:37 PM
Uhm, you also didn't mention FWP's poor between the tackle vision and reaction time.

But that said, I'd bet if the good running teams in the league ran our offensive sets they would no longer be good running teams. Actually, I'd bet my car on that.

I remember a great number of long runs he used to have by going up the middle, making one guy miss and outrunning everyone else. Now, he looks much more tentative when going to the hole...possibly on account of some of the injuries he's had. I think he's lost some of his initial burst...which is what helped set him apart from a lot of other backs...that coupled with questionable hands make him less of a threat than some of the other "scatbacks" in the league.

HometownGal
09-17-2009, 05:40 PM
I'll tell you this, I wish that the Rooney's would listen to some of the moronic posts I see on here...because as a Browns fan, if you armchair coaches/GMs were in control, we wouldn't have this huge losing streak to you guys.

They just might. I forwarded the link to this thread to the Steelers FO. :chuckle::thumbsup:

FredScott
09-17-2009, 05:49 PM
Seriously it's been we've played one game so far this year and yes we couldn't run the ball but keep in mind the Titans will have one of the best defenses in the league this year just as they did last year. The Titans are a hell of a team and we still won without the running game. Last year was last year lets play a few more games before we start blaming people and wanting run run coaches out of town.

There is no one person to blame anyways seeing as this is a "team" sport. True maybe the system they are trying to run is not typical Steelers football but at the same time the OL still has to block and it's not the coaches fault a guy doesn't do his assignment correctly. ANd lets face it did you actually watch the Titans game? Cause if you did you would have seen how timid Parker looked the whole game.

He looked slow and afraid to hit the hole which also makes the line look bad. Hell we only let Mendenhall carry the ball 5 times and Parker only 13. You can't have a running game without calling running plays. True when we did run it we didn't do much but guys we were playing the Titans and no matter what you say they have a hell of a defense.

Lets see what we do in the next few weeks in the running game. I have a feeling it's gonna pick up. People complain about last year still about having no running game yet what did we do? We won the Super Bowl so be patient and give it time, hell the OL has only played 1 game together as a unit.

Bottom line is there is no need to panic, we will be just fine even if we have to rely on Big Ben more then we would like. Hell we all want to see the Steelers pound the ball up the gut because that's always been the way we played, power running game, awesome defense.

Steelers & I
09-18-2009, 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by revefsreleets
Quotes from Cleveland fans? Please...

And my new favorite is "Change our plan FASTER than they adjust to us".

Yep, it's just that easy...just like golf is easy...hey, all you're doing is hitting the little ball into the hole, how hard can THAT be?

For the millionth time, this is chess, not checkers, and you're not even up to checkers level yet, tossing out some "Go, Fish" solutions to problems you have not even the faintest idea of the complexity of...



ok, lets just keep running up the middle and never around the ends with the quickest RB's in the league????

dumb ass you are.... you say the same crap over and over too and its all pointless..
no answers to anything .. you just crap on peoples opinions....


Give it up with that guy Malone, the ignore feature is your friend. It's quite OBVIOUS that the dude has never strapped on a helmet and shoulder pads and competed in a game of football in his lifetime. His "chess, not checkers" theory wins the award for "The least knowledgeable football fan on the planet". As most of us know, football is 80% brawn, 20% brain. If revefsreleets theory had ANY merit at all, then the Ivy League would be the most dominant league in college football. It's QUITE evident that brains, although somewhat important, will get you very little on the football field. A lot of the players in the NFL aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer but Revs wants you to believe that it's a geeks game rather than an athletes game. Football is football, the terminology is all the same, it's just spoken in different code.

You're matching wits with a guy that stated near the end of last season, "We're lucky to have Arians." "Arians will probably be hired away as a head coach at seasons end." "Arians is one of the best coordinators in the NFL." "Bruce Arians played a big part in the development of Peyton Manning."

Do you see what you're up against? Ignore feature man, use it. Until then, this debate on Arians will never be resolved. I guess we'll just have to wait until the Steelers can his A$$. At that point, we'll all know who won this particular debate.

steelreserve
09-18-2009, 02:11 AM
...

I have nothing to say here, except that I look forward to the big fight tomorrow!

:popcorn:

Steelers & I
09-18-2009, 02:32 AM
I have nothing to say here, except that I look forward to the big fight tomorrow!

:popcorn:

Oh my. Which way should I run?

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l13/bkakers/coward.jpg

steelreserve
09-18-2009, 02:35 AM
Oh my. Which way should I run?

Forward, which is more than Parker seems to know.

HometownGal
09-18-2009, 07:20 AM
I guess we'll just have to wait until the Steelers can his A$$. At that point, we'll all know who won this particular debate.

So "winning" debates on an internet sports BB is important to you? WOW.

And for the record - I agree with revs that BA is a good OC and we ARE lucky to have him. :flap:

cubanstogie
09-18-2009, 08:28 AM
Give it up with that guy Malone, the ignore feature is your friend. It's quite OBVIOUS that the dude has never strapped on a helmet and shoulder pads and competed in a game of football in his lifetime. His "chess, not checkers" theory wins the award for "The least knowledgeable football fan on the planet". As most of us know, football is 80% brawn, 20% brain. If revefsreleets theory had ANY merit at all, then the Ivy League would be the most dominant league in college football. It's QUITE evident that brains, although somewhat important, will get you very little on the football field. A lot of the players in the NFL aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer but Revs wants you to believe that it's a geeks game rather than an athletes game. Football is football, the terminology is all the same, it's just spoken in different code.

You're matching wits with a guy that stated near the end of last season, "We're lucky to have Arians." "Arians will probably be hired away as a head coach at seasons end." "Arians is one of the best coordinators in the NFL." "Bruce Arians played a big part in the development of Peyton Manning."

Do you see what you're up against? Ignore feature man, use it. Until then, this debate on Arians will never be resolved. I guess we'll just have to wait until the Steelers can his A$$. At that point, we'll all know who won this particular debate.

So if the Steelers win another SB this year and fire BA in two years who wins the debate? I realize our offense is far from what we are used to, and far from balanced but it has provided a lot of comebacks. Now I again realize thats not the way we are used to winning and its hard to digest, but you can't argue with wins. Ben has flourished in this system and with time to throw he has proven he is an elite QB, heck even when he doesn't have time to throw he has proven to be elite. Our achilles heel is our oline, as was our special teams coverage up until last year. The special teams was been righted and I have faith our o line will do the same, but not over night. Until then if we keep winning even if it is unorthodox why would we get rid of BA and take the risk of Ben not flourishing in a different offense.

Texasteel
09-18-2009, 09:13 AM
I'm not in this to win a debate, I left that in high school. I want the Steelers to do well period. In my mind that means BA does well, and I think he will.

I believe that BA is a good OC and has done a pretty good job. I still say that to lay all the offensive problems and BAs feet, and not give him any credit for what works is grossly unfair.

revefsreleets
09-18-2009, 10:55 AM
First off, you are NOT off ignore, but your stupidity offended some people, and they sent this gem along to me to comment on, which I have no problem doing...


Originally Posted by Steelers & I
Give it up with that guy Malone, the ignore feature is your friend. It's quite OBVIOUS that the dude has never strapped on a helmet and shoulder pads and competed in a game of football in his lifetime. His "chess, not checkers" theory wins the award for "The least knowledgeable football fan on the planet". As most of us know, football is 80% brawn, 20% brain. If revefsreleets theory had ANY merit at all, then the Ivy League would be the most dominant league in college football. It's QUITE evident that brains, although somewhat important, will get you very little on the football field. A lot of the players in the NFL aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer but Revs wants you to believe that it's a geeks game rather than an athletes game. Football is football, the terminology is all the same, it's just spoken in different code.

You're matching wits with a guy that stated near the end of last season, "We're lucky to have Arians." "Arians will probably be hired away as a head coach at seasons end." "Arians is one of the best coordinators in the NFL." "Bruce Arians played a big part in the development of Peyton Manning."

Do you see what you're up against? Ignore feature man, use it. Until then, this debate on Arians will never be resolved. I guess we'll just have to wait until the Steelers can his A$$. At that point, we'll all know who won this particular debate.


Hmmmmm…where to begin? This is such a giant steaming pile of horseshit, it’s not easy to figure out where to start slapping down your retarded assertions. How about playing football? I played for over 10 years, so, Urch! Bullshit statement #1 is addressed. I also played QB, and my dad was a HC through the high school level, so, um, yeah, nice try, asshat.

Calling ME the least knowledgeable football fan is ridiculous to the point that it actually OFFENDED other posters on this board. In this particular case, it is literally one of the LEAST astute posters (YOU) on this board calling out one of the more knowledgeable fans. I thought mmalone was a retard, but he’s almost Einsteinian in his brilliance compared to you, and that dude probably can’t tie his own shoes.

80% brawn to 20% brains? Really? That’s one of the top 10 stupidest things ever posted on this board, and isn’t even correct at the PEE WEE level. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about football knows that you can start seeing differences in good teams and bad very early own due to coaching, which has NOTHING to do with brawn. I might even go as far as saying it’s the complete OPPOSITE, 80% brains, 20% brawn. In fact, if me and you were both handed two teams with players of the exact same talent level, I’m sure my team would beat your team 81-0. Why? Because your posts show a CONTINUAL lack of even a rudimentary knowledge concerning he complexity of the game, and when that’s pointed out to you, you just get angry and say even more stupid shit. The "Ivy League" argument is stupid, because it fails to address a whole other matter, which is inherent talent. But I'll do you one better. IF you had an Ivy League team and they played a team like USC WITH NO COACHES, the Ivy League team would win every time.

Your whole “Timmons is bust/trade him before we have to pay him” made you basically a parody, a complete farce…it was a vapid and empty argument, lacked ANY kind of logic or sense, and is still one of my favorite tidbits of idiocy posted on SF. It stripped you of ANY credibility, exposed you as one of the stupidest people to ever form and express an opinion on this board, and also showed you to be a whiny baby in the way you handled the almost universal disdain you (rightly) received for being so ignorant of how things really work.

Now, back to Arians. Never said he was the best, but I said he’s nowhere near the worst. The stuff about Peyton Manning is great for you to bring up, because it just so happens to be 100% TRUE! More importantly, Ben has recently come out and said just about the same thing. So, um, what, are these guys liars? Do you know more than them? As for him getting shitcanned, why hasn’t it happened yet, brainiac? If THAT’S what you are using as the measuring stick for winning or losing this debate, then you already lose, because the Steelers KNEW what his offensive philosophy was BEFORE they promoted him and KNOW what he brings to the table yet CONTINUE to retain him.

I had to laugh when I saw you post“As most of us know”? Who do you think supports you in this? Do you have a busload of retards you hang with who will suddenly be posting on this board? There is NO ONE who agrees with almost ANYTHING you say on this board. You are a waste of posting space, and definitely would be the first or second person banned if we could institute “idiot bans”.

I had to tone this down from what you REALLY deserve because of the family friendly nature of this board, and you should be happy about that….I REALLY wanted to rip you up and expose you as the completely retarded AH you are, but I’m keeping it nice so as not to offend others.

steelreserve
09-18-2009, 12:02 PM
I have nothing to say here, except that I look forward to the big fight tomorrow!

:popcorn:

Well, so far, I've got to say this hasn't disappointed. :popcorn:

revefsreleets
09-18-2009, 12:11 PM
Well, so far, I've got to say this hasn't disappointed. :popcorn:

This isn't fight...S&I is like the black knight in Monte Python, threatening to bite my knee caps off. He had nothing, has nothing, and it's only going to get worse for him as his frustration builds...

Although I am curious to see who he's actually recruited into his "Army of nitwits" who actually agree with him on anything.

mmalone probably, because he's almost as idiotic, and maybe bet welcher, simply because I made a fool out oh him and he'll hate me forever for it...

steelreserve
09-18-2009, 01:13 PM
bet welcher? Did I miss something?

anyway, I'm not really trying to take side on the fight or care who's winning, but it's always entertaining to see a good, old-fashioned shouting match (or the Internet equivalent)

Justin Otstott
09-18-2009, 08:15 PM
yeah dude has to go asap!!!

T.Richardson
09-19-2009, 02:16 AM
ya know what...I really dont care if the Steelers were dead last in rushing...being number 1 in the NFL in terms of running the ball has done nothing for the Steelers, for what? 10+ years of "smashmouth" football, Cowher only produced 1 superbowl win. Get over the "this isnt Steelers football" well guess what, the wins count, the Steelers dont want the rushing title, they want the Lombardi Trophy, if it means Ben has to throw the ball 30, 40, 50 times a game to win, then so be it. I just want to see them win.

Fire Haley
09-19-2009, 06:20 AM
We can say horseshit now? Who knew?

revefsreleets
09-19-2009, 07:33 AM
We can say horseshit now? Who knew?

It's only censored when it's not appropriate...I think even the board AI knows a POS when he posts, and allows the appropriate special dispensation...

You are still unable, however, to post the words w hore, or D ick LeBeau...

HometownGal
09-19-2009, 08:51 AM
It's only censored when it's not appropriate...I think even the board AI knows a POS when he posts, and allows the appropriate special dispensation...

You are still unable, however, to post the words w hore, or D ick LeBeau...

Whelp - the way I look at it is this. If ya keep poking at a sleeping bear with a stick, it's going to wake up and claw your eyes out.

As I always say around here - if you dish it out, you'd better be able to take it in heaping helpings.

Fire Haley
09-19-2009, 08:57 AM
Smack him.

fansince'76
09-19-2009, 10:04 AM
You are still unable, however, to post the words w hore, or D ick LeBeau...

No, Dick LeBeau is permissible here.

revefsreleets
09-20-2009, 03:12 PM
bet welcher? Did I miss something?



WELL, since you asked....Steel Head made a $50 bet with me, he lost, and he's COMPLETELY ignoring me...he not only won't honor the bet, he won't even acknowledge it...worst kind of welching. If it was me, I'd either pay or be too ashamed to ever show my face around here again. I understand he may be too poor to pay, but at least man up and admit as much...

truesteelerfan
09-20-2009, 06:24 PM
We gotta resign Tomlin....would you want to play against him?

Steelers & I
09-21-2009, 01:51 AM
So "winning" debates on an internet sports BB is important to you? WOW.

And for the record - I agree with revs that BA is a good OC and we ARE lucky to have him. :flap:

Oh we know Gal, you've always supported Arians. And winning "debates" isn't at all important to me. However, in this case, with this particular debate, IT"S VERY IMPORTANT! It's a few others that have taken this debate to the point that personal attacks are being administered. But no worries, I can take it, especially when you consider the source, an asshat that most members dislike. The dude's on my ignore list, I only see his postings when someone such as yourself quotes them.
PS, my eyes are still intact so someone may want to check the effectiveness of their claws.

Preacher
09-21-2009, 02:27 AM
Oh we know Gal, you've always supported Arians. And winning "debates" isn't at all important to me. However, in this case, with this particular debate, IT"S VERY IMPORTANT! It's a few others that have taken this debate to the point that personal attacks are being administered. But no worries, I can take it, especially when you consider the source, an asshat that most members dislike. The dude's on my ignore list, I only see his postings when someone such as yourself quotes them.
PS, my eyes are still intact so someone may want to check the effectiveness of their claws.

:doh:

Steeldude
09-21-2009, 02:44 AM
WELL, since you asked....Steel Head made a $50 bet with me, he lost, and he's COMPLETELY ignoring me...he not only won't honor the bet, he won't even acknowledge it...worst kind of welching. If it was me, I'd either pay or be too ashamed to ever show my face around here again. I understand he may be too poor to pay, but at least man up and admit as much...


you made a bet with steel head? :toofunny:

the kid became a steelers' fan last year. don't feel alone. he has been made a fool by many on here. when you ask him to back his argument or at least use a tiny bit of logic, he runs.

no big deal now. he has been.... :banned:

Steelers & I
09-21-2009, 04:38 AM
:shake01::doh:

Oh, you found that little comment, a retaliatory comment, and you want to make a spectacle of it? As if I started with the personal jabs. Have you seen what Revs consistently posts about the many members who have been involved in a disagreement with him? And I suppose that you don't have a problem with that, do you? Oh, I guess it's OK so long as that type of language comes from him??

I don't take personal jabs at other members until and unless they take one at me. And then here you come along to point it out. Were you wearing blinders as you scrolled through some of Revs posts?????:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:
And you're a Preacher???? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

43Hitman
09-21-2009, 06:54 AM
:ak47: :rocket:





:popcorn:

revefsreleets
09-21-2009, 08:49 AM
As I said, dude had nothing, and continues to have NOTHING. He needs to read "Football for Dummies" and get back to us, then we can promote him up to the B-team with mmalone and watch those two idiots try to fight their way out of the proverbial paper bag.

vasteeler
09-22-2009, 10:49 AM
holy cow i am so tired of every thread becoming a pissing contest this site used to be fun :banging::banging::banging:

revefsreleets
09-22-2009, 11:13 AM
Look, I did my part...I put this jackass on ignore, and I DID ignore him. But he continually called me out, and, regardless of the fact that's he's a retard, I'm not just gonna sit back and let some half-witted know-nothing take cheap potshots at me.

I also refuse to treat him with even a modicum of respect or decency, because he has done nothing to deserve it. His opinions are just ignorant, and half the time he doesn't even make sense. He's reaping what he sowed, and I'm sorry other people are getting unintentionally caught up in this, but it's an unfortunate downside to posting on message boards.

HometownGal
09-22-2009, 11:14 AM
holy cow i am so tired of every thread becoming a pissing contest this site used to be fun :banging::banging::banging:

Believe me, VA - Gary and I feel your pain. Though an occasional slug fest is to be expected due to the large number of members who post here daily and all of us having different thoughts and personalities, we're growing weary very fast of members attacking the poster instead of the post. :banging:

Fire Haley
09-22-2009, 11:21 AM
I wish more people would hate me.

MattsMe
09-22-2009, 11:23 AM
The bengals suck. :coffee:

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-22-2009, 11:26 AM
I wish more people would hate me.

OK, I'll put you on my list. :kick: There's an opening since Carey Davis was released. :tt02:

xfl2001fan
09-22-2009, 03:06 PM
:shake01:

Oh, you found that little comment, a retaliatory comment, and you want to make a spectacle of it? As if I started with the personal jabs. Have you seen what Revs consistently posts about the many members who have been involved in a disagreement with him? And I suppose that you don't have a problem with that, do you? Oh, I guess it's OK so long as that type of language comes from him??

I don't take personal jabs at other members until and unless they take one at me. And then here you come along to point it out. Were you wearing blinders as you scrolled through some of Revs posts?????:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:
And you're a Preacher???? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Wow...you'd think my being a Browns fan would get blasted more. Sheesh. You posted like a hypocrite, he pointed it out. That's it. He said nothing on the subject except for one silly smiley.

If :doh: is a spectacle (in your opinion), I'd hate to get your opinion on something that's actually significant (War, Abortion, etc...)

GridironWarrior
09-22-2009, 04:03 PM
This game is not Tomlin’s fault. He did his part. It’s the players fault. They are happy and content with their 2nd Super Bowl Ring and don’t have that chip and fire of last season. Just like the 06 team. Tomlin is a great coach. But it’s the players who ultimately determine what happens on the field. The only player who had any fire this season is Polamalu. Did you see Ike not even try for that pick on Cutler’s duck? What the heck was that?

MattsMe
09-23-2009, 01:16 AM
http://memegenerator.net/Instances/403/Chris-Crocker-LEAVE-TOMLIN-ALONE-.jpg

Steeldude
12-12-2009, 06:48 AM
31, 23 , 26 and 28 <--those numbers represent where the browns ranked on total offense in the NFL from 2001-2004.

31, 23, 20, and 23 <--those numbers represent where the browns rushing attack ranked in the NFL from 2001-2004.

Zierlein was the offensive line coach at the University of Cincinnati (1997-2000) when Tomlin was the Bearcats' secondary coach and also was the Browns' offensive line coach in 2001-04 when Arians was the offensive coordinator.

they are all buddies.

hopefully he hires his next coaches on experience and ability, not the buddy-system.

Vincent
12-12-2009, 06:56 AM
http://memegenerator.net/Instances/403/Chris-Crocker-LEAVE-TOMLIN-ALONE-.jpg

Now that's some funny @#$%, that right there!

Damn near av material.

HometownGal
12-12-2009, 07:00 AM
We have enough Tomlin bashing threads around here and don't need to be bringing up more of 'em. Closed.