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View Full Version : Miami's Wildcat Formation


BlastFurnace
09-21-2009, 10:45 PM
Anyone watching this? They run this Wildcat to perfection. It helps that they have Dallas's old OL coach as their HC (Sporano). They are blowing Indy's D'line completely off the ball. Brown, Williams, and Cobbs are running all over them in this formation.

tony hipchest
09-21-2009, 10:59 PM
Anyone watching this? .

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=39186

i guess 4 of us are.

Crow-Magnon
09-22-2009, 09:07 AM
The Fins lost (DY Manning!), but their Wildcat was awesome last night. How do you control the ball for FORTY-FIVE MINUTES and still lose?

KeiselPower99
09-22-2009, 09:32 AM
The Fins lost (DY Manning!), but their Wildcat was awesome last night. How do you control the ball for FORTY-FIVE MINUTES and still lose?

Shitty secondary

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-22-2009, 09:36 AM
The Fins lost (DY Manning!), but their Wildcat was awesome last night. How do you control the ball for FORTY-FIVE MINUTES and still lose?

By relying on a gadget offense for the bulk of your yardage.

This SOOOOO much reminds me of the "run and shoot". Everybody was talking about the high powered Oilers offense with Warren Moon. They could move the ball and score on big plays, but werent productive in the red zone.

klick81
09-22-2009, 11:51 AM
This "gadget" offense seemed to average about 4 yards per play and milked the clock. I wouldn't say that was the problem.

As already mentioned, a porous secondary looks to be the culprit here. How can it NOT be when your opponent only has the ball for 15 mins and still manages to put up 27 points?

fansince'76
09-22-2009, 11:56 AM
A good run D (read: not Indy's) will shut it down. Everybody (except us last year) can run on Indy.

steelreserve
09-22-2009, 01:31 PM
I think the wildcat works for Miami because they just run it a lot better than anyone else. They've got good personnel for it and they obviously practice it a lot. Other teams try to copy it and end up doing it half-assed, so it gets the same results as any other harebrained scheme. I mean, come on? Parker running the wildcat with our offense last year, in a singleback formation? Not a very good setup.

One more thing I noticed with Miami: They ran just about every snap like it was not only the wildcat, but it might also be a trick play on top of that. They did a much better job selling that than most teams I've seen. Most of the imitators just put a running back behind center and expect the defense to go "OMG, A DIRECT SNAP! EVERYBODY PANIC!!!" which, of course, they don't. But varying the plays and creating confusion got the Dolphins a lot of yards.

Anyway ... yes, most defenses are going to be all over the wildcat when most teams try it. It might still get some decent results for Miami, though.

fansince'76
09-22-2009, 01:37 PM
I think the wildcat works for Miami because they just run it a lot better than anyone else. They've got good personnel for it and they obviously practice it a lot. Other teams try to copy it and end up doing it half-assed, so it gets the same results as any other harebrained scheme. I mean, come on? Parker running the wildcat with our offense last year, in a singleback formation? Not a very good setup.

One more thing I noticed with Miami: They ran just about every snap like it was not only the wildcat, but it might also be a trick play on top of that. They did a much better job selling that than most teams I've seen. Most of the imitators just put a running back behind center and expect the defense to go "OMG, A DIRECT SNAP! EVERYBODY PANIC!!!" which, of course, they don't. But varying the plays and creating confusion got the Dolphins a lot of yards.

Anyway ... yes, most defenses are going to be all over the wildcat when most teams try it. It might still get some decent results for Miami, though.

I fail to see what it's gotten them besides an 0-2 record. They went down 27-23 with 2 minutes and some change and looked absolutely lost trying to run a 2-minute offense and managed the clock like a Pop Warner team - for a minute there I thought Holmgren replaced Sparano as their HC. Maybe they are making trickery and the Wildcat the focal point of their practices on offense, because they're obviously not practicing the 2-minute drill, that's for sure.

RoethlisBURGHer
09-22-2009, 01:53 PM
While Miami's Wildcat is exciting, I think it has become more of their main offensive scheme.

In the NFL, that stuff doesn't work as your main offensive scheme. I don't think they believe that they can run a normal offense with Pennington, yet he looked like he had decent arm strength with his bomb to Ginn in the endzone,

And I agree, a good run defense will stop the Wildcat from being so effective. If you stay in your gaps and play it like a regular run, you're fine.

steelreserve
09-22-2009, 02:01 PM
I fail to see what it's gotten them besides an 0-2 record. They went down 27-23 with 2 minutes and some change and looked absolutely lost trying to run a 2-minute offense and managed the clock like a Pop Warner team - for a minute there I thought Holmgren replaced Sparano as their HC. Maybe they are making trickery and the Wildcat the focal point of their practices on offense, because they're obviously not practicing the 2-minute drill, that's for sure.

True enough. Not saying the wildcat has made the Dolphins into a great team by any means, just that they've mastered running it. They've got plenty other problems -- like the defense gives up too many points and the regular offense has been playing like crap.

I don't know if the second part is related to spending too much time on the wildcat or not. It could well be. Or it could be that Pennington and the rest of the offense played way over their heads last season, and this year they've returned to normal, which means they're in deep shit.

MasterOfPuppets
09-22-2009, 02:17 PM
The Fins lost (DY Manning!), but their Wildcat was awesome last night. How do you control the ball for FORTY-FIVE MINUTES and still lose? well letting manning throw for 300 + in 15 minutes might be a place to start the investigation...lol

RoethlisBURGHer
09-22-2009, 02:35 PM
well letting manning throw for 300 + in 15 minutes might be a place to start the investigation...lol

:rofl:

Just think of what Manning could have done with 20 minutes!

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-22-2009, 02:43 PM
The one thing that makes Miami's offense work is the fact that Jake Long, Jake Grove and Vernon Carey are just pushing defenders all over the place.

Did you see the last TD by the Fins?? The O line surge went 5 yards deep in the end zone. That and Jake Long handled Dwight Freeney by himself.

steelreserve
09-22-2009, 04:01 PM
As much as I think it's a bad idea to take offensive linemen with top-five picks, Long looks like he's doing a hell of a good job.

Is that worth $10 million a season? Probably not. But his play was impressive.

hindes204
09-22-2009, 04:08 PM
yea, long looked damn good in that game.......but i agree 10 mil a year is way too much

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-22-2009, 04:43 PM
As much as I think it's a bad idea to take offensive linemen with top-five picks, Long looks like he's doing a hell of a good job.

Is that worth $10 million a season? Probably not. But his play was impressive.

You should read "The Blind Side" by Michael Lewis.

It basically explains how the evolution of the game with pass rushers like Lawrence Taylor, Chris Doleman, Bruce Smith, etc made it necessary to have premier pass protectors on the "Blind Side" of the QB.

Its why the blue chip LT is often the 2nd or 3rd highest paid player on teams and a consistent top 10 draft pick.

fansince'76
09-22-2009, 04:59 PM
You should read "The Blind Side" by Michael Lewis.

It basically explains how the evolution of the game with pass rushers like Lawrence Taylor, Chris Doleman, Bruce Smith, etc made it necessary to have premier pass protectors on the "Blind Side" of the QB.

Its why the blue chip LT is often the 2nd or 3rd highest paid player on teams and a consistent top 10 draft pick.

At what cost though? It seems like in Miami's case it was at the expense of a D that gave up 300+ yards through the air and a game away in about 15 minutes of on-the-field time to Manning. Miami's D looked nonexistent other than a couple of pressures by Porter (who, IMO, they also way overpaid for) last night.

steelreserve
09-22-2009, 05:12 PM
You should read "The Blind Side" by Michael Lewis.

It basically explains how the evolution of the game with pass rushers like Lawrence Taylor, Chris Doleman, Bruce Smith, etc made it necessary to have premier pass protectors on the "Blind Side" of the QB.

Its why the blue chip LT is often the 2nd or 3rd highest paid player on teams and a consistent top 10 draft pick.

I think what I've got here is more of an issue with rookie salaries and salary-cap strategy in general. It's definitely an important position. I just think you can find guys who will do a fine job there for $4-$6 million, and if you spend a lot more than that, you'll really hurt the team. Giving ANY lineman $10 million is a mistake from the salary cap perspective because you'll either have to shortchange the rest of the line or skimp on some other position.

Again, if there was no salary cap, or if the top picks didn't get such ridiculous contracts, I wouldn't feel that way. The current system basically makes it so that even if LT is your top need, filling it with a top pick is not a great option.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-23-2009, 12:32 AM
I dont know. If you have OT's in the prime of their career like Jon Ogden, Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, Jordan Gross........those guys market is pretty close to $10mil a season.

I agree that Rookie salaries should be slotted and capped like the NBA, but I disagree that only the QB, RB, WR's deserve $10mil a season sentiment.

Miami invested big money in Jake Long and Vernon Carey. They brought in Porter in free agency and I think are paying Ronnie Brown OK money too. Then Parcells drafts Langford, Merling, vontae Davis and Sean Smith. Its kind of like the Steelers in you pay the cornerstone vets and draft young talent to play cheaper.

steelreserve
09-23-2009, 12:44 PM
I dont know. If you have OT's in the prime of their career like Jon Ogden, Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, Jordan Gross........those guys market is pretty close to $10mil a season.

I agree that Rookie salaries should be slotted and capped like the NBA, but I disagree that only the QB, RB, WR's deserve $10mil a season sentiment.

That's where we disagree. Yes, market value for a top OL is that high, but I still think it's a mistake to put 10 percent of your salary cap toward any one player unless he's capable of singlehandedly winning a game for you, or at least capable of dominating for a series or two at a time and changing the makeup of the game.

That means QBs, RBs, a few (very few) WRs, and certain pass rushers. OLs and DBs don't really fit that category because they're only as effective as the guy next to them, and you can't pay the entire unit premium money. I really think, given the limitations of the cap, you're better off trying to pay decent money to 4-5 decent starters at OL and DB than you are by breaking the bank for one superstar and potentially leaving a hole somewhere. Like you said, finding capable young guys through the draft or cheap reliable veterans is always a help ... when you can find them.

Miami invested big money in Jake Long and Vernon Carey. They brought in Porter in free agency and I think are paying Ronnie Brown OK money too. Then Parcells drafts Langford, Merling, vontae Davis and Sean Smith. Its kind of like the Steelers in you pay the cornerstone vets and draft young talent to play cheaper.

The Dolphins are actually very, very lucky in one respect: They got a temporary pass with the salary cap because they were able to find a quality QB at a bargain-basement price due to injury concerns. Pennington is making less than $4 million a year, and probably would've commanded at least double that if they'd known he could play at a high level for sure. Ronnie Brown's also still under his rookie contract, which is paying him $3 million and change -- not cheap, but below market for a good RB. If not for that, they would've had to make a tough cut somewhere else, and this offseason, they'll probably have to. Not a good sign for a team that needs to strengthen a few positions on defense. Hope they draft well, and cheaply.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-23-2009, 02:06 PM
OLs and DBs don't really fit that category because they're only as effective as the guy next to them, and you can't pay the entire unit premium money.
.

In the case of a CB...there is no guy next to him. Also the same as the LT who effectively plays on the "island" against the best pass rushers in the NFL.

If you look at the really solid teams in the NFL, it all starts up front on the O-line and D-line. Offensively you need a very good LT to protect your QB and a good OG to help in the run game. The other 3 guys can be serviceable.

An O line can make an average RB look good. Otherwise how do you explain Willie Parker getting all those yards? :wink: Likewise a good pass rushing D-line can make a secondary look good.

IMO, the most overrated position in the NFL is WR, the next is RB. The league is filled with WR's who can run and catch if only the QB is good enough and has the time to get them the football. Antwaan Randle El didnt suddenly suck.....he just went to a place with a bad QB, so too with Az Hakim, Wes Welker, Mike Furrey, Deion Branch who all benefitted from a good QB and looked brutal without one.

steelreserve
09-23-2009, 02:29 PM
In the case of a CB...there is no guy next to him. Also the same as the LT who effectively plays on the "island" against the best pass rushers in the NFL.

OK, there's not technically anyone "next" to a CB, but the point is, if you have the best corner in the league on one side, but the corner on the other side is an easy target, or if one of the safeties is always getting fooled, then your pass defense is going to be shitty. The Raiders are (or at least were, this year is still TBD) a perfect example of this. You need all four guys to be at least decent.

Same with the OL. Ogden might be a brick wall at LT, but if the guys on the right side are always getting bum rushed, that's no good. I know LT-RDE is usually the marquee matchup, but if you lose any one of the 4-5 battles, the line isn't doing its job. USUALLY, it seems like that's not an issue, because teams that spend big money on a LT tend to bring in premium players elsewhere on the line too -- they just have problems at other positions.

If you look at the really solid teams in the NFL, it all starts up front on the O-line and D-line. Offensively you need a very good LT to protect your QB and a good OG to help in the run game. The other 3 guys can be serviceable.

An O line can make an average RB look good. Otherwise how do you explain Willie Parker getting all those yards? :wink: Likewise a good pass rushing D-line can make a secondary look good.


True enough. You're not necessarily wrong; I just happen to be of the opinion that true balance is the better option for those positions. it's definitely possible to make it work either of those ways.

IMO, the most overrated position in the NFL is WR, the next is RB. The league is filled with WR's who can run and catch if only the QB is good enough and has the time to get them the football. Antwaan Randle El didnt suddenly suck.....he just went to a place with a bad QB, so too with Az Hakim, Wes Welker, Mike Furrey, Deion Branch who all benefitted from a good QB and looked brutal without one.

I am 100% behind you on that one. Competent WRs are a dime a dozen; the Bears are the only ones who can't seem to figure that out. Same with decent running backs; only the Steelers don't know how to find one.

But there are a few -- and only a few -- RBs and WRs that are actually at the talent level where they can be game-changers independently. Moss, Fitzgerald, maybe a guy like Burress or Owens or Steve Smith, and that's about all the names that belong on that list. I don't know if there are currently any RBs at that level, but past examples would've been Bettis, LT, Roger Craig ... guys like that. All probably HOFers and by far the best at their position. Otherwise, I agree with you, those positions aren't worth that kind of money either, and $10 million for a rookie receiver or RB is just as bad.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-23-2009, 08:59 PM
Reserve. Basically I think you are saying that you build thru the draft with good young inexpensive talent instead of paying too much for it like Dan Snyder.

Your devaluing of guys in the trenches but willingness to overpay "skill players" is classic Raiders mentality. It sells tickets, but doesnt win championships.

Fans know that QB's, WR's and RB's win them weeks in their fantasy pools. NFL GM's and coaches know that Linemen win them games and get to the playoffs.

steelreserve
09-24-2009, 01:09 PM
Reserve. Basically I think you are saying that you build thru the draft with good young inexpensive talent instead of paying too much for it like Dan Snyder.

Yes. The difference is, when the draft slotting FORCES you to overpay for someone like Dan Snyder, pretty much the only way to get your money's worth is hope you find a star at an immediate "impact" position. Unfortunately, with a top-five pick and the salaries they command, MOST things you can do are the wrong move. Unless you get a star QB or the "next Barry Sanders" that everyone is always talking about (but never seems to materialize), you come out in the red. Taking an OL #1, to me, just looks like being resigned to the fact that you'll overpay a guy instead of gambling and maybe losing big.

Yes, the line is where it starts, but "building" a line with $10 million rookies is not the way I would do it. That doesn't mean I want to underpay all linemen everywhere, and it doesn't mean I think the line is unimportant, it means I think THAT is the wrong move.

Your devaluing of guys in the trenches but willingness to overpay "skill players" is classic Raiders mentality. It sells tickets, but doesnt win championships.

Fans know that QB's, WR's and RB's win them weeks in their fantasy pools. NFL GM's and coaches know that Linemen win them games and get to the playoffs.

OK, you're talking about two different things there. Al Davis' problem isn't that he overpays skill players -- it's that he overpays indiscriminately, and that he overpays A LOT more skill players than you should. There ARE a handful of skill players worth $10 million, but you can't have five of them at once, and you'd better make sure that if you're paying a fortune, you have Ben Roethlisberger instead of DeAngelo Hall or Darius Heyward-Bey. Because that's going to create cap problems just as sure as a $10 million unproven lineman.

The second point? Come on. That's almost insulting. Not overpaying an offensive lineman doesn't mean I think you SHOULD overpay everyone else. Truth is, there are very few players who are worth 10 percent of your salary cap, period. Most of them are quarterbacks. I also think it's entirely possible to put together a good offensive line where your best guys are making $5 million and $6 million, not $9 million and $10 million. Just like it's possible to put together an outstanding defensive backfield or an outstanding defensive line that way (which is exactly what the Steelers have done, in case you didn't notice).

Anyway ... this is more of a side point, but thought it would be interesting to look at what HAS happened to most of the teams that have drafted offensive linemen top-five in the salary cap era as we know it. Have those linemen sparked a lot of success? A handul of teams -- the Rams in 1997, the Dolphins last year, the 2007 Cardinals -- had success ... but notice something? All of them also just happened to pick up a Pro Bowl QB for next to nothing (twice, it was Kurt Warner). The other teams? Well, it didn't really seem to help them or hurt them.

1997 Rams -- Orlando Pace
2000 Redskins -- Chris Samuels
2001 Cardinals -- Leonard Davis
2002 Bills -- Mike Williams
2004 Raiders -- Robert Gallery (there you go Al, overpaying skill players but not the line again)
2006 Jets -- D'Brickashaw Ferguson
2007 Browns -- Joe Thomas
2007 Cardinals -- Levi Brown

jcdavey08
09-27-2009, 07:21 PM
the way miami ran the wildcat vs my chargers today, i don't know why they didn't just do it every play