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Steeldude
09-28-2009, 10:42 AM
these are just some thoughts. the losses so far are team losses, but i thought i would express some opinions on a few parts of the team. take them for what they are worth.

IMO, lebeau has been calling a soft defense. that's not really unusual. not to take anything away from lebeau, but i have always preferred capers because he was more aggressive in his schemes. the steelers have admitted they are content with letting teams dink and dunk their way down the field in the hopes they make a mistake. if the opposing QBs are taking 3-step drops then you can't give such huge cushions.

the D-line seems to be showing its age along with farrior. i know, i know...farrior is the greatest LB ever, but he is getting old and slowing down. this doesn't mean bench him. he is still the team's best option.

woodley has done nothing all year. you can claim he has been near the QB a lot, but his so-called close proximity to the QB has not affected them at all. what i find more troubling in his inability to contain a play. so far this year he looks like another gildon. are the losses his fault alone? no way, but like many others, he has not been showing up.

holmes is still hindered by average to below average hands. he is not a sure-handed WR yet.

BR has been playing very well for the most part. though his long passes are still gut wrenching to watch.

the O-line is still horrible. who cares about getting yards against the feeble bengals? try doing it against a decent defense for a change.

keisel who? does this guy do anything to validate his contract? he is weak against the run due to his lack of size. he isn't so great at pressuring the QB either. experience is the only thing keeping him in. i hope hood learns quickly. keisel is still the obvious choice at starting RDT...for now.

for all the heat carter has received i don't think he has done too badly. it's not like he is the starter and we know he is not a polamalu

sweed is irrelevant at the moment. wallace easily replaces him. as of now, it's a contest between holmes and sweed for the worst hands. wallace looks like he will be the steelers ROY. he may even be in the running for NFL ROY.

harrison looks like the only player on defense who plays with fire.

gay played ok. much better than last week. gay's little celebrations are...well just use his last name to describe it :wink02: his celebrations look even more ridiculous after this embarrassing loss.

polamalu is much needed, but to blame losses on his absence is an insult to the team as a whole. the steelers should be 3-0 even without polamalu.

the O-line is...hmmmm...still pathetic. i realize i am not a coach, but to me that is a very poor O-line that desperately needs talent and/or better coaching. the steelers need to find a way to move up in the draft so they can obtain a blue chip O-lineman(OT). if things keep going the way they have been they may not need to move up in the draft. they will already be there.

they called starks for that hold, but nothing for harrison being held in the same fashion or even worse? :noidea:

this is not the end of the season. they are 1-2. it's not a good thing, but it certainly isn't the worst. losing to the bengals makes beating the ravens that much more important. does anyone really feel totally confident that the steelers can sweep the ravens or the browns for that matter? if the steelers lose next week then it's time for the coaches to react and repair.

tough game next week. a win against the chargers will help team morale and help focus them. :thumbsup:

i'll stop here. i could go on a lot longer :coffee:

kirklandrules
09-28-2009, 12:00 PM
Not a bad assessment Steeldude. Although I'm not much a fan of Carter. He's slow at best and his thigh injury isn't helping him. Yes, he does bring the lumber when he finally closes on a play. Nothing personal against the guy as he's obviously busting his jibs out there, but he just doens't have the wheels to get there. The Benson TD run gave me memories of a playoff game against Jacksonville ... Carter just didn't have the legs to make the play. Farrier looked slow too. I love watching him play and think hes' awesome. But that 4th & 10 conversion was not made by a WR or a fast running back. It was a guy that lumbered across the field. And to make matters worse for these two guys, it's not like the Steelers D was on the field all day. So having knocked a couple good defenders here, I'm just wondering if Lebeau should be subbing for those guys as well (throughout the game). Does anyone feel that Mundy might have made the play against an average runner in Benson? Would Fox have caught Brian Leonard prior to his fat keister getting 11 yards on 4th down? I never liked the old saying that a less than 100% athlete is better than their backup. That's crap. Championships are won based on depth and because that depth participates on the field of play. Championships are not won because the best 2nd and 3rd stringers in the league are riding the pine.

eafratitpm3
09-28-2009, 12:08 PM
these are just some thoughts. the losses so far are team losses, but i thought i would express some opinions on a few parts of the team. take them for what they are worth.

IMO, lebeau has been calling a soft defense. that's not really unusual. not to take anything away from lebeau, but i have always preferred capers because he was more aggressive in his schemes. the steelers have admitted they are content with letting teams dink and dunk their way down the field in the hopes they make a mistake. if the opposing QBs are taking 3-step drops then you can't give such huge cushions.

the D-line seems to be showing its age along with farrior. i know, i know...farrior is the greatest LB ever, but he is getting old and slowing down. this doesn't mean bench him. he is still the team's best option.

woodley has done nothing all year. you can claim he has been near the QB a lot, but his so-called close proximity to the QB has not affected them at all. what i find more troubling in his inability to contain a play. so far this year he looks like another gildon. are the losses his fault alone? no way, but like many others, he has not been showing up.

holmes is still hindered by average to below average hands. he is not a sure-handed WR yet.

BR has been playing very well for the most part. though his long passes are still gut wrenching to watch.

the O-line is still horrible. who cares about getting yards against the feeble bengals? try doing it against a decent defense for a change.

keisel who? does this guy do anything to validate his contract? he is weak against the run due to his lack of size. he isn't so great at pressuring the QB either. experience is the only thing keeping him in. i hope hood learns quickly. keisel is still the obvious choice at starting RDT...for now.

for all the heat carter has received i don't think he has done too badly. it's not like he is the starter and we know he is not a polamalu

sweed is irrelevant at the moment. wallace easily replaces him. as of now, it's a contest between holmes and sweed for the worst hands. wallace looks like he will be the steelers ROY. he may even be in the running for NFL ROY.

harrison looks like the only player on defense who plays with fire.

gay played ok. much better than last week. gay's little celebrations are...well just use his last name to describe it :wink02: his celebrations look even more ridiculous after this embarrassing loss.

polamalu is much needed, but to blame losses on his absence is an insult to the team as a whole. the steelers should be 3-0 even without polamalu.

the O-line is...hmmmm...still pathetic. i realize i am not a coach, but to me that is a very poor O-line that desperately needs talent and/or better coaching. the steelers need to find a way to move up in the draft so they can obtain a blue chip O-lineman(OT). if things keep going the way they have been they may not need to move up in the draft. they will already be there.

they called starks for that hold, but nothing for harrison being held in the same fashion or even worse? :noidea:

this is not the end of the season. they are 1-2. it's not a good thing, but it certainly isn't the worst. losing to the bengals makes beating the ravens that much more important. does anyone really feel totally confident that the steelers can sweep the ravens or the browns for that matter? if the steelers lose next week then it's time for the coaches to react and repair.

tough game next week. a win against the chargers will help team morale and help focus them. :thumbsup:

i'll stop here. i could go on a lot longer :coffee:

Excellent accessment! Nuff said!

Steeldude
09-28-2009, 12:39 PM
Although I'm not much a fan of Carter

me neither, but i think he is serviceable. definitely need polamalu back. i think the steelers should be able to live without polamalu. i would hate to see him rushed back and re-injure the knee.


if mundy catches on it could mean the last season for carter or perhaps a 3rd-string role

steelreserve
09-28-2009, 01:04 PM
The soft defense part is the part that bothers me the most. In our Super Bowl years, the defense seems to have a completely different (and much more aggressive) look to it. You know what I'm talking about -- 4 or 5 LBs and DBs fired up and jumping around near the line, looking like any of them could attack on any given play, just messing with their heads all day.

This year, it's been more like, OK, we'll send a straight 4-man rush and not disguise which guys are coming. I saw some plays yesterday where no one other than Harrison and the three DLs were within five yards of the line of scrimmage. Not surprisingly, that's when we got picked apart underneath. I know part of this is because of Troy being out, but it goes beyond just that.

What really worries me is that this is the way I saw our defense acting in 2006 and 2007. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great defense. But without that extra fire, it's not a Super Bowl winning defense. I hope we find that in the next few weeks, or it spells trouble.

Steeldude
09-28-2009, 01:58 PM
i agree, steelreserve.

the basic 4-man rushes with huge cushions is killing the steelers. it's not like the steelers' D-line is going to get that sack. let alone a sack against a 3-step drop. most of the time it looks like they are content with wrestling with the O-linemen rather than trying to get by them and at the QB.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-28-2009, 02:04 PM
i agree, steelreserve.

the basic 4-man rushes with huge cushions is killing the steelers. it's not like the steelers' D-line is going to get that sack. let alone a sack against a 3-step drop. most of the time it looks like they are content with wrestling with the O-linemen rather than trying to get by them and at the QB.

Kind of reminds me of the 2003 Steelers with Chad Scott, Dewayne Washington, Brent Alexander, Mike Logan keeping everything in front of them and getting little help from the pass rush.

Couldnt run the football back then with Bettis and Zeroue, so had to let Maddox sling it around. Oh well.........cant win the Lombardi every year huh?

Steeldude
09-28-2009, 03:37 PM
2003 was also the year the entire O-line missed games. faneca had to play LT

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-28-2009, 05:22 PM
2003 was also the year the entire O-line missed games. faneca had to play LT

True, so they had no running game or ability to close out games on the ground then either.

I just find it amusing that many that have embraced the shift away from a power running game in favor of an empty backfield passing attack lead by Ben. Those are the same that now wonder why the Steelers can't close out games.

What was the record by Cowher lead teams in the 4th quarter when leading by 10 or more?? I say if you live by the right arm of Ben Roethlisberger, then you have to accept losing games like this as a cost of doing business.

X-Terminator
09-28-2009, 05:32 PM
True, so they had no running game or ability to close out games on the ground then either.

I just find it amusing that many that have embraced the shift away from a power running game in favor of an empty backfield passing attack lead by Ben. Those are the same that now wonder why the Steelers can't close out games.

What was the record by Cowher lead teams in the 4th quarter when leading by 10 or more?? I say if you live by the right arm of Ben Roethlisberger, then you have to accept losing games like this as a cost of doing business.

Thing is, they tried to pull a "Cowher" last night and it backfired...and thus the usual suspects are now blaming Arians and the offense for the loss, which I still say is misplaced. I agree that they should have put more points on the board, but they still gave the D an 11-point lead to work with. A championship-caliber defense does not give up that kind of lead with 10 minutes left in the game, end of story.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-28-2009, 05:36 PM
Thing is, they tried to pull a "Cowher" last night and it backfired...and thus the usual suspects are now blaming Arians and the offense for the loss, which I still say is misplaced. I agree that they should have put more points on the board, but they still gave the D an 11-point lead to work with. A championship-caliber defense does not give up that kind of lead with 10 minutes left in the game, end of story.

Thing is, you cant pull a "Cowher" to try and have those "time consuming drives" when the team isnt built for that and has no true FB.

Maybe this team doesnt have a "championship calibre defense" without Polamalu, McFadden, Foote and an aging Smith, Hampton, Keisel ?? In that case, you have to outscore opponents with that high powered offense. Its the new Steelers. :thumbsup:

AllD
09-28-2009, 05:38 PM
Reed missed another FG, Holmes has not been on his game since the SB, and Sweed drops another. We marched up and down the field in the first half and then came out and sat down. The refs calling TWO suspect offensive interference penalties on Ward did not help. Looked like the ref enjoyed the call. BB had a good game and the pick 6 is on Holmes. Hello Wallace and enjoy the bench Sweed. FWP catching out of the backfield is a dangerous weapon.

X-Terminator
09-28-2009, 05:41 PM
Thing is, you cant pull a "Cowher" to try and have those "time consuming drives" when the team isnt built for that and has no true FB.

Maybe this team doesnt have a "championship calibre defense" without Polamalu, McFadden, Foote and an aging Smith, Hampton, Keisel ?? In that case, you have to outscore opponents with that high powered offense. Its the new Steelers. :thumbsup:

Sorry dude, I cannot give the defense a free pass. They are still plenty good enough to hold a team like the Bengals off the scoreboard with/without those guys.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-28-2009, 05:42 PM
The refs calling TWO suspect offensive interference penalties on Ward did not help. .

One was a FLAT OUT PICK PLAY, the other he was blocking while the ball was in the air and was marginal.

Any pee-wee referee could have seen the first one was a pick play.

I'm bitter about the fake punt. The FB had his hands outside of Fraziers shoulder pads and it was a blatent hold that was missed, but they missed Starks on another takedown in the pass rush...so it evens out.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-28-2009, 05:48 PM
Sorry dude, I cannot give the defense a free pass. They are still plenty good enough to hold a team like the Bengals off the scoreboard with/without those guys.

Nobody gets a free pass, but you say "a team like the Bengals" like a negative.

Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson, Laverneus Coles, Chris Henry, Brian Leonard, Cedric Benson are all talented players. I think all of them are 1st or 2nd round picks (other than Henry).

An offense like that is gonna score points the more times you give them the football and that is what happened in the 2nd half when the Steelers squandered points in the 1st half.

X-Terminator
09-28-2009, 05:50 PM
Nobody gets a free pass, but you say "a team like the Bengals" like a negative.

Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson, Laverneus Coles, Chris Henry, Brian Leonard, Cedric Benson are all talented players. I think all of them are 1st or 2nd round picks (other than Henry).

An offense like that is gonna score points the more times you give them the football and that is what happened in the 2nd half when the Steelers squandered points in the 1st half.

OK, so the Bengals are better this year. So what? The D STILL has to hold the lead, period.

Still not giving them a free pass. Too many people here seem to want to, but I won't.

tony hipchest
09-28-2009, 05:57 PM
the defense is damn good, even w/o troy. giving up only 14 points to the bungles is semi respectable.

but with troy in the game we are great. we either pitch a shut out or hold them to under 10.

troy is to the steelers what LT or ronnie lott were to their teams.

it seems too many people here wanna diminish his value and expect the steelers to pick up right where they left off w/o him. i dont get it.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-28-2009, 05:58 PM
OK, so the Bengals are better this year. So what? The D STILL has to hold the lead, period.

Still not giving them a free pass. Too many people here seem to want to, but I won't.

Yet you are willing to give the Offense a free pass when they gained 373 yards in total offense, but scored only 20 points.???

The D giving up 14 points in the 4th quarter isnt good. Neither is scoring 0 points in the 4th quarter by the Offense. No matter how thin you slice it, there are always 2 sides.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-28-2009, 06:04 PM
the defense is damn good, even w/o troy. giving up only 14 points to the bungles is semi respectable.

but with troy in the game we are great. we either pitch a shut out or hold them to under 10.

troy is to the steelers what LT or ronnie lott were to their teams.

it seems too many people here wanna diminish his value and expect the steelers to pick up right where they left off w/o him. i dont get it.

So True. Benson doesnt score that TD if Troy is out there. Brian Leonard probably doesnt get the 1st down either, Benson doesnt get the run yardage on cutbacks and the Steelers are able to get some sacks from the pressure.

Troy is a huge catalyst for the defense, but somebody has to step up in his absence. I hoped this brilliant high powered offense would win some games just like the Defense snuffed out teams while Ben was hurt in 2005.

Ben, Ward, Holmes, Miller, Parker, Moore, Wallace.............there seems to be enough playmakers there to score more than 20 points.

X-Terminator
09-28-2009, 06:04 PM
Yet you are willing to give the Offense a free pass when they gained 373 yards in total offense, but scored only 20 points.???

The D giving up 14 points in the 4th quarter isnt good. Neither is scoring 0 points in the 4th quarter by the Offense. No matter how thin you slice it, there are always 2 sides.

No, I am not giving the offense a free pass. I believe I said they should have scored more points than they did. I'm just not pinning all of the blame on them, and I'm really not pinning all of the blame on the D either, just that I'm not going to give them the free pass that others want to give them.

Look, the bottom line is that they need to play 60 minutes of football on BOTH sides of the ball, not just 45 and change. That is going to come back to bite you every time.

BlastFurnace
09-28-2009, 06:24 PM
Thing is, you cant pull a "Cowher" to try and have those "time consuming drives" when the team isnt built for that and has no true FB.

Maybe this team doesnt have a "championship calibre defense" without Polamalu, McFadden, Foote and an aging Smith, Hampton, Keisel ?? In that case, you have to outscore opponents with that high powered offense. Its the new Steelers. :thumbsup:

I agree with you here. Keep the pedal to the medal and try to bury your opponents. Make it impossible for them to be able to come back.

Tomlin said the other day that he wants our offense to be more like the 2007 Patriots offense, but what I saw towards the end of the game did not indicate that.

tony hipchest
09-28-2009, 06:54 PM
No, I am not giving the offense a free pass. I believe I said they should have scored more points than they did. I'm just not pinning all of the blame on them, and I'm really not pinning all of the blame on the D either, just that I'm not going to give them the free pass that others want to give them.

Look, the bottom line is that they need to play 60 minutes of football on BOTH sides of the ball, not just 45 and change. That is going to come back to bite you every time.
thats all well and good, and pretty much the stance i take. i prefer to look at the game as a whole. the only problem is, while sound and clear thinking, it is pretty much message board vanilla.

its like in a gameball thread, where people wanna list off 10 players they wanna give the gameball too, when in reality there is only ONE ball. there is nothing wrong with picking one and going with it.

we can break the team down into quarters-

25% offense
25% defense
25% ST's
25% coaching.

Coaching- maybe tomlin shoulda gone for it on 4th and goal the 1st time and not on 4th and 4 the following time.

ST's- jeff reed should make a 50 yarder. giving up a fake sucks.

Defense- 2 fourth down conversions on the final drive that allows the bengals eat up the clock? i said in the gameday thread, i just wished they would allow the bengasl to score quickly because i had a horrible feeling i rarely ever get while watching the steelers.

Offense- a pick six? :doh: SWEEEED? :dang:

i see no problem with anyone trying to give the gamesuck to any of these facets as long as its what the poster really believes ultimately gave up the game.

life is so much easier when you can look at a single blown call by a referee and blame them.

actually you can throw the refs in there, too.

i blame 20% of this loss on the defense, 20% on the offense, 20% on the ST's, 20% on coaching, and 20% on the refs.

oh wait...

wasnt yesterday the 1st game dan rooney hasnt attended in like 50 years? gotta give that prick goodell about 17.5 % of the blame too.

oh, and tomlin has reverted back to sucking in 4:15 games... :popcorn:

troy is the difference (i personally blame maddedn because that is easiest). i dont care if we were 6-2 in the past w/o him. we were the best defense in the league for years, last year with him.

i know coaches coach and players need to be able to execute, but NOBODY executes in the way that polamalu does. he is a once in a generation players, and he proved he hasnt even reached his peak before the injury.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-29-2009, 11:24 AM
I agree with you here. Keep the pedal to the medal and try to bury your opponents. Make it impossible for them to be able to come back.

Tomlin said the other day that he wants our offense to be more like the 2007 Patriots offense, but what I saw towards the end of the game did not indicate that.

I agree with this statement about the Steelers:

Until they can run the ball, they'll be suspect.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/09/27/mmqb/2.html#ixzz0SVeUjX9M

sherlock
09-29-2009, 11:38 AM
Just had to write in to congratulate the posters on this thread.
No personal attacks,no name-calling,no bitchin`,just well argued and intelligent discussion......a real breath of fresh air.
I love this type of thread...for someone who has much to learn about NFL it makes for great reading.:applaudit:

Steely McSmash
09-29-2009, 01:07 PM
Nice post SteelDude!

El-Gonzo -- I've heard that the Ward interference call shouldn't be called since the pass was behind the LOS.

Fire Haley
09-29-2009, 01:16 PM
harrison looks like the only player on defense who plays with fire.

yep


I think we're the only ones who thought the front 7 would have to pick up the slack when Troy went down. I don't see the intensity or second effort needed. Just lots of missed tackles.

What they need is a primetime game to light the fire again, I say.

No excuses for Sunday Night against S.D.