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View Full Version : Is Brady getting LEGACY penalties?


AllD
10-07-2009, 10:02 AM
Do you think Brady is getting favored in several penalty calls that would not be called for other QBs?

Is it a Brady or New England phenomenom?

fansince'76
10-07-2009, 10:04 AM
The NFL NEEDS Tom Brady. :jerkit:

revefsreleets
10-07-2009, 10:48 AM
It's based on what he was capable of when he had the benefit of knowing, thanks to his coach, the opposing defensive plays.

Now that he's playing on a level field (although still in the most QB-friendly system in the league), here's where he's ranking:

Yards: 4th
QBR: 17th (Behind Jason freaking Campbell!)
Comp %: 15th (behind Shaun Hill)

He's number 1 in completions, BUT he's also number 1 in attempts, BUT 15th in %. What does THAT tell you?

One more interesting stat: He's TWENTY EIGHTH in average yards at 6.5 per catch. All they do is dink and dunk, so why is his completion percentage so low?

X-Terminator
10-07-2009, 10:55 AM
This is being discussed at length in the Ravens vs. Patriots thread, but the answer is yes, of course he is.

Gaist
10-07-2009, 11:10 AM
Not at much as Trent Edwards, apparently. 4 RTP penalties have been called in favor of the Bills.

3 have been called in favor of New England, and 3 against New England.

It's based on what he was capable of when he had the benefit of knowing, thanks to his coach, the opposing defensive plays.

Now that he's playing on a level field (although still in the most QB-friendly system in the league), here's where he's ranking:

Yep, you're right. He threw for as many as 28 touchdowns in a season thanks to "knowing the defensive plays".

Then in 2007, right after he no longer has this "advantage", he only throws for 50 touchdowns.:toofunny:

revefsreleets
10-07-2009, 11:22 AM
He still had the advantage back then. I believe Belichick was still employing nefarious methods of stealing the opposing teams plays and such. The evidence shows as much. In fact, his record "pre-cheating" (which includes his first year in NE) is telling: 41-55. That is NOT a coincidence.

Fact is, I think Cassel and Brady are pretty much about equal in talent, and that is NOT a ringing endorsement of Cassels' abilities.

Dino 6 Rings
10-07-2009, 12:54 PM
I would have to say after this weekend...he won't be getting any calls that other QBs do not get.

Either ALL the Refs will call woosy late hit on the QB in every single game or the integrity of the game will be in jeopardy

The Patriot
10-07-2009, 01:14 PM
Fact is, I think Cassel and Brady are pretty much about equal in talent, and that is NOT a ringing endorsement of Cassels' abilities.

:toofunny: Is that a fact?

I can agree that refs make bad calls, favor Brady more that other quarterbacks, institute rules to benefit quarterbacks like Brady, and are payed by Roger Goodell exorbitant sums of money to fix games so the Patriots can win and thus minimalize the effects of Spygate, but when you say something like that...

The_WARDen
10-07-2009, 01:22 PM
is there really a need to have 2 threads discussing Marsha's special treatment?

Gaist
10-07-2009, 01:56 PM
He still had the advantage back then. I believe Belichick was still employing nefarious methods of stealing the opposing teams plays and such. The evidence shows as much. In fact, his record "pre-cheating" (which includes his first year in NE) is telling: 41-55. That is NOT a coincidence.

So what you're saying is, even though the "advantage" was taken away from him, he still had the advantage anyways?:noidea:

MACH1
10-07-2009, 02:08 PM
Legacy? More like Puss* penalties. As in don't hurt my puss#.

Indo
10-07-2009, 02:24 PM
Legacy? More like Puss* penalties. As in don't hurt my puss#.

Or as in his future HoF Induction for the complete and utter Pussification of the sport.

"Yes, Al, the game was much harder hitting. They ACTUALLY used to wear pads and helmets before the NFL was completely Bradied. There is a whole room in the Hall's Archive section where actual helmets and shoulder pads are kept."

revefsreleets
10-07-2009, 03:29 PM
:toofunny: Is that a fact?

I can agree that refs make bad calls, favor Brady more that other quarterbacks, institute rules to benefit quarterbacks like Brady, and are payed by Roger Goodell exorbitant sums of money to fix games so the Patriots can win and thus minimalize the effects of Spygate, but when you say something like that...

In fact, I think it is. You are absolutely blinded by your adoration of your team and have lost all perspective. Allow me an indulgence here...

If we examine NON-2007 years, it would appear that Tom Brady is a QB capable of delivering (and this is just an off-the-top of my head figure based on glancing at his career stats, but the averages CAN'T be far off) a QB capable of roughly the following:

About an 87QBR
About 3700 yards of passing a year (again, more of a product of their system than any astounding talent)
About 28 TD's
About 14 INT's
About a 61% completion percentage


We only have one REAL year for Cassel, but let's just examine trends. It would appear that Cassel is a QB capable of roughly the following:

A QBR of about 87
About 3700 yards of passing
About 28 TD's
About 14 INT's
About a 62% completion percentage


If Cassel was able to enjoy all the, um....advantages of a career in NE, I'd say his numbers would trend upwards which would show him to be the statistically superior QB to Brady.

I encourage anyone and everyone to pull up nfl.com's website and examine these rough estimates for themselves.

Gaist
10-07-2009, 03:57 PM
In fact, I think it is. You are absolutely blinded by your adoration of your team and have lost all perspective. Allow me an indulgence here...

Delusional, table for one. More like you're blinded by your hatred. How convenient that you rule out 2007, Brady's only year with two superstar receivers and broke the records, and yet you count Cassel's only year WITH those two receievers, and the whole exact same offense overall, and yet he managed to throw 30 LESS touchdowns.

stlrtruck
10-07-2009, 04:06 PM
Delusional, table for one. More like you're blinded by your hatred. How convenient that you rule out 2007, Brady's only year with two superstar receivers and broke the records, and yet you count Cassel's only year WITH those two receievers, and the whole exact same offense overall, and yet he managed to throw 30 LESS touchdowns.

Look another knob slobbin :troll: attempting to back up his panty waist QB to hopefully get us to think that he's actually some sort of football player! You arse chins can keep your metrosexual QB and his tainted rings.

If you can't see that his whining and crying on the field is a detriment to the foundation of the game, then you obviously lack the historical knowledge base to understand how this game is meant to be played.

HERE'S A HINT: It isn't by crying for a penalty flag every time someone touches you or your passes fall incomplete (or better yet get intercepted).

revefsreleets
10-07-2009, 04:11 PM
Delusional, table for one. More like you're blinded by your hatred. How convenient that you rule out 2007, Brady's only year with two superstar receivers and broke the records, and yet you count Cassel's only year WITH those two receievers, and the whole exact same offense overall, and yet he managed to throw 30 LESS touchdowns.

Cassel's first real year...I also threw out Brady's first year because his stats were very average.

I throw out 2007 because it's clearly the year when the MOST benefits of spygate were felt . 18 straight wins is undeniable clear proof for anyone actually employing critical thinking that something was rotten in Foxboro. Somehow, you are trying to use the FACT that a QB who's really only slightly above average can have a record shattering year, all within months of the biggest cheating scandal in the history of the league, as proof that there is no connection between the two.

It's Occams Razor...the simplest solution as almost always the correct one.

Gaist
10-07-2009, 04:16 PM
I throw out 2007 because it's clearly the year when the MOST benefits of spygate were felt . 18 straight wins is undeniable clear proof for anyone actually employing critical thinking that something was rotten in Foxboro. Somehow, you are trying to use the FACT that a QB who's really only slightly above average can have a record shattering year, all within months of the biggest cheating scandal in the history of the league, as proof that there is no connection between the two.

Well, let's see. If I'm an opposing team, and a team I was facing had been caught stealing signals, I would CHANGE MY SIGNALS for the upcoming game with them. Let's say they still were taping after they got caught (they weren't anyways), changing your signals prevents the advantage.

I'll tell you why they broke so many records. Moss and Welker.

stlrtruck
10-07-2009, 04:20 PM
Well, let's see. If I'm an opposing team, and a team I was facing had been caught stealing signals, I would CHANGE MY SIGNALS for the upcoming game with them. Let's say they still were taping after they got caught (they weren't anyways), changing your signals prevents the advantage.

I'll tell you why they broke so many records. Moss and Welker.

Obviously you missed the conversation with DCs around the league talking about how they don't change up their signals year to year because it then makes it difficult, almost like learning a new system all over again (or something to that affect).

But hey why should we let a little thing like integrity, honesty, and fair play get in the way of 31 other DCs changing their signals so that the untouchable patriots* can have their way with the league rules and only use them when it benefits them.

Wow it must be nice living in never-never land!

revefsreleets
10-07-2009, 04:24 PM
Well, let's see. If I'm an opposing team, and a team I was facing had been caught stealing signals, I would CHANGE MY SIGNALS for the upcoming game with them. Let's say they still were taping after they got caught (they weren't anyways), changing your signals prevents the advantage.

I'll tell you why they broke so many records. Moss and Welker.


Please stop with the "signal stealing is all they did" argument. They did that for YEARS, and it's naive to think that was the extent of their malfeasance. I suspect that was actually probably the LEAST of the offenses, and we'll never know exactly how bad it was because the NFL simply cannot acknowledge cheating of that magnitude. Titles were won and lost, every team in the NFL was affected...there's simply no way to adequately address it either than to acknowledge the least of the offenses, burn the tapes and move on.

Also, it's VERY easy to refute your simplistic argument about Moss and Welker being the catalyst to Brady's success in 2007. Were they not on the team last year? Are they not on the team THIS year?

I have no problem debating with you, but you've to step up your game a bit. The equivalent of repeatedly saying "nuh-uh" isn't going to cut it...

Gaist
10-07-2009, 04:28 PM
Please stop with the "signal stealing is all they did" argument. They did that for YEARS, and it's naive to think that was the extent of their malfeasance

Well, let's see some proof of other things they've done. You can't just say "oh, they also stole playbooks." Who's playbooks did they steal? Were they punished for it? Why or why not?

Also, it's VERY easy to refute your simplistic argument about Moss and Welker being the catalyst to Brady's success in 2007. Were they not on the team last year? Are they not on the team THIS year?

What were Brady's stats for 2008? Since you seem to enjoy posting stats, could you post Brady's for 2008?

revefsreleets
10-07-2009, 04:32 PM
I have Cassel's stats...which are almost identical to most years for Brady. Since they are about equal in skill (as the stats bear out), this once again leads back inevitably to the ONE thing surrounding 2006-07 that is so very different from any other year by any other team: The greatest cheating scandal in the history of the league.

Wait, let me guess what you'll say...."nuh-uh!"

This is boring and I'm done. The evidence that we know of is overwhelming. We have an above average QB with a mediocre coach and a few impact players doing things no team in history had ever done before AND they were caught cheating, but the two are in no way connected, and that's your story and you're sticking to it.

Gaist
10-07-2009, 04:38 PM
I didn't ask for Cassel's, I asked for Brady's from 2008.

AllD
10-07-2009, 06:27 PM
It is like he is Lloyd Braun from Seinfeld and the referees have to pretend he isn't crazy.

revefsreleets
10-07-2009, 06:53 PM
I didn't ask for Cassel's, I asked for Brady's from 2008.
See: Matt Cassel. Same difference...he put up the same numbers Brady would have...about 28 TD's, about 14 INT's, about an 87 QBR, etc, etc...the farther removed from the benefits of Spygate the Pats get, the more "Brady" Brady will get (Agaian, see above stats), and the more Belichick will revert back to the 41-55 kind of guy he really is. When they ultimately level out as a perennial 10-6 team, they'll lose their mystique and the commensurate ability to attract top-notch but troubled headcases who can only be fixed by winning.

The Patriot
10-07-2009, 07:22 PM
See: Matt Cassel. Same difference...he put up the same numbers Brady would have...about 28 TD's, about 14 INT's, about an 87 QBR, etc, etc...the farther removed from the benefits of Spygate the Pats get, the more "Brady" Brady will get (Agaian, see above stats), and the more Belichick will revert back to the 41-55 kind of guy he really is. When they ultimately level out as a perennial 10-6 team, they'll lose their mystique and the commensurate ability to attract top-notch but troubled headcases who can only be fixed by winning.

21 touchdowns is 'about' 28 touchdowns?

Well, then Brady won about 4 super bowls. :chuckle:

NJarhead
10-07-2009, 07:24 PM
Well, let's see some proof of other things they've done. You can't just say "oh, they also stole playbooks." Who's playbooks did they steal? Were they punished for it? Why or why not?


They cheated and got caught. Any credibility to assume they didn't go further is gone so don't even go there with the "show me the proof crap." There's no question in any of our minds (league wide) that there were probably a ton more angles played by Belicheat and Co.

I didn't ask for Cassel's, I asked for Brady's from 2008.

Who the F^&* are you??? Go get it your damn self! WTF?

NJarhead
10-07-2009, 07:28 PM
I'm telling ya, the day is coming when some team will just hire a one year thug off the street for a nice little one year salary and instruct him to just "sweep the leg." ....No more Tom Brady.

Gaist
10-07-2009, 07:53 PM
I'm telling ya, the day is coming when some team will just hire a one year thug off the street for a nice little one year salary and instruct him to just "sweep the leg." ....No more Tom Brady.

Suggs already tried it.

Any credibility to assume they didn't go further is gone so don't even go there with the "show me the proof crap."

It's nothing unless you provide proof. You can say whatever you want about anybody, but you better have some facts to back it up if you want to be taken seriously. Show me where the Patriots were punished for stealing playbooks.

NJarhead
10-07-2009, 08:13 PM
Suggs already tried it.

No. and if you think that he wanted to hit Brady but missed you are as blind as you are ignorant.

It's nothing unless you provide proof. You can say whatever you want about anybody, but you better have some facts to back it up if you want to be taken seriously. Show me where the Patriots were punished for stealing playbooks.

As I said, credibility is something that is even considered in the court of law. Your coach has none of it left. There was speculation about it and once he was found to have been guilty of one, it's a pretty safe bet that he's guilty of more. "Where there's smoke there's fire" as they say.

Can he be punished? Of course not. Not anymore than the slap on the wrist that he got. But what he's left you is a legacy of doubt amongst your peers as fans..., as well as the mighty "*"
Anyway, you guys think you have the ground to stand on in an argument on a forum and demand facts? Don't think so. In this court, a cheating history is all the proof we need. We are not naive enough to think that he was only guilty of what he was "caught" doing.

Your only a first time offender once. Whether you get caught or not.

stlrtruck
10-08-2009, 08:45 AM
It has become apparent that Brady is getting some inconsistent calls going his way.

Last night I was watching Showtime's 'Inside the NFL' and they showed the brush to the side of the helmet and the pass on the knee. Then they showed the late hit on Flacco (hit well after the ball was thrown) - but no flag. Then as I watched the highlights to the Steelers game, there was a play where Ben got 'brushed' against his helmet ala what happened to marsha - but no flag. And I've figured out why, marsha has been taking acting lessons and Flacco and Roethlisberger are real QBs who understand the mentality of the game.

SO maybe if Ben and Joe start flailing around like a fish out of water they might start getting some of those calls. But then again I'd rather have a real QB under center than some "pusshe"

revefsreleets
10-08-2009, 09:40 AM
21 touchdowns is 'about' 28 touchdowns?

Well, then Brady won about 4 super bowls. :chuckle:

I'm talking averages. It's incredibly weak when you need to slice trends into tiny little slivers in order to try and hang on to increasingly indefensible, or in this case simply incorrect, arguments.

The stats/trends are there for all to see. If you want to slice and dice to defend your already predetermined position, that's fine, however, over the long-term, REALITY will ultimately win out.

Belichick/Brady were at the peak of their "powers" when they were able to reap the most from their cheating. As time wears on, and distance separates them from their unfair advantages, there will be a giant leveling out. You choose to stick your head in the sand like an Ostrich and defend your awful franchise like the hopeless homer lemming you (and your buddy Gaist) are, meanwhile, the rest of us get to sit back and enjoy the imminent and inevitable unraveling of your crooked franchise right before our very eyes.

I'm sure I speak for others when I say I'm going to enjoy this VERY much...If there would have been some humility from the organization and it's fans on the way up, this fall would not have been so hard, but you did this to yourselves. More's the pity...

Gaist
10-08-2009, 11:23 AM
The stats/trends are there for all to see

Indeed they are. 31-7 after spygate, with back to back wins over the Falcons and Ravens this season. All that with a QB coming off a serious injury (funny how you fail to mention that in any of your blubbering about stats and trends) and a completely revamped defense.

the rest of us get to sit back and enjoy the imminent and inevitable unraveling of your crooked franchise right before our very eyes.

And when they do have a bad season (maybe 10-15 years from now), I'm sure you'll be there to talk about how it's all leveling out, and how finally they've lost the benefits of spygate.:toofunny:

stlrtruck
10-08-2009, 11:29 AM
Indeed they are. 31-7 after spygate, with back to back wins over the Falcons and Ravens this season. All that with a QB coming off a serious injury (funny how you fail to mention that in any of your blubbering about stats and trends) and a completely revamped defense.

And you fail to mention with the daughter like protection that the refs have granted marsha but yet don't cover ALL QBs with the same degree of lunacy.

Funny how you fail to mention that in all your :blah: :blah: :blah:

fansince'76
10-08-2009, 11:30 AM
And when they do have a bad season, I'll have jumped on another bandwagon by then, so it's all good.

Fixed.

revefsreleets
10-08-2009, 11:30 AM
(Sigh)

Spygate was what was KNOWN.

18-1 and shattered records are the result of what wasn't.

Rats and Falcons are overrated, as are the Pats. It all works itself out in the end, which this year will mean 10-6/11-5 and a either a wild card or divisional playoff loss for the forced-to-play-fair-Pats...

It's interesting that the projections have never been adequately addressed. Lot's of yards (throwing 5 yard passes along the way), but only 16 TD's.

Gaist
10-08-2009, 11:48 AM
Rats and Falcons are overrated, as are the Pats. It all works itself out in the end, which this year will mean 10-6/11-5 and a either a wild card or divisional playoff loss for the forced-to-play-fair-Pats...

Ah, okay. So now everyone's overrated.

vasteeler
10-08-2009, 11:57 AM
Ah, okay. So now everyone's overrated.

just curious is your screen name pronounced gay-est?:rofl:

Gaist
10-08-2009, 12:01 PM
No, it's pronounced like guy-st

revefsreleets
10-08-2009, 12:06 PM
Listen, Gayest, get back to me after more than 4 games, okay? I'll go ahead and award the Pats the 1st quarter of the season super bowl trophy now...even with Brady's lowly 4 TD passes....

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
10-08-2009, 01:19 PM
Don't know about Golden Boy getting Legacy penalties but yesterday on ESPN radio they mentioned that since 2007 through last week there has been 9 Roughing the passer calls in favor of brady. Now take into consideration that in 2008 he didn't play one game that averages 2 call every 4 games. There is no QB in the league that has more RTP penalties than a*s wipe.

Dino 6 Rings
10-08-2009, 01:44 PM
You know...the Giants really fooled the Patriots the year they played in the Super Bowl. They played the Patriots style game in the last regular season game. Coughlin came out and let it be known they were going to "play to win the game" and "play all the starters." But what they did was, play a prevent defense basically the entire game and not pressure Brady saving the real defensive schemes for the playoffs and the Super Bowl.

The Giants in the final season game threw the ball 32 times and only ran it 19 times. They allowed the game to be a shoot out and lulled the Pats into thinking that's what they would get again. They only got 1 sack on Tom that game. TOP was in favor for the Pats in that game 36 mins to 23 mins.

Then the super bowl...They ran it 26 times and passed 34, TOP was in their favor by about a minute, they sacked Brady 5 Times because they changed their stunts and put in a real game plan for the D-Line. The longest pass play they allowed was 19 yards, unlike the previous game where moss had a 65 yard td, the Pats could never get the ball deep because of the pressure.

I believe, Coughlin planned to show the Pats a "fake" game plan that last game. Set them up for the potential of playing them again and hoped they used the film from that first game as a guide for the SB. Might explain why the Pats looked lost at times during the SB.

That's just my opinion...I also am a little nuts so it is what it is.

The Patriot
10-08-2009, 06:28 PM
I'm talking averages. It's incredibly weak when you need to slice trends into tiny little slivers in order to try and hang on to increasingly indefensible, or in this case simply incorrect, arguments.

The stats/trends are there for all to see. If you want to slice and dice to defend your already predetermined position, that's fine, however, over the long-term, REALITY will ultimately win out.

Belichick/Brady were at the peak of their "powers" when they were able to reap the most from their cheating. As time wears on, and distance separates them from their unfair advantages, there will be a giant leveling out. You choose to stick your head in the sand like an Ostrich and defend your awful franchise like the hopeless homer lemming you (and your buddy Gaist) are, meanwhile, the rest of us get to sit back and enjoy the imminent and inevitable unraveling of your crooked franchise right before our very eyes.

I'm sure I speak for others when I say I'm going to enjoy this VERY much...If there would have been some humility from the organization and it's fans on the way up, this fall would not have been so hard, but you did this to yourselves. More's the pity...
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/4chantamahan/coolstorybro.jpg

revefsreleets
10-09-2009, 07:35 AM
The defense is aging and becoming ineffective.

Brady is on par for a very average season.

It has begun.

Gaist
10-09-2009, 10:13 AM
The defense is aging?:rofl:

AllD
10-09-2009, 01:56 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to just spot the Pats 15 yards on their first possession at the beginning of each half instead of slowing down the game with the BS calls?

NJarhead
10-09-2009, 02:05 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to just spot the Pats 15 yards on their first possession at the beginning of each half instead of slowing down the game with the BS calls?

Nah, Brady wouldn't settle for that. They should just get a first down after second down on every drive past the 50 yard line. That way the pace of the game remains and the poor Patriots won't have to adapt to any inconvenient changes.

solardave
10-09-2009, 03:38 PM
The NFL NEEDS Tom Brady. :jerkit:

Yeah they do. He makes women everywhere look good. I hear he has PMS.

The Patriot
10-09-2009, 08:11 PM
The defense is aging and becoming ineffective.

Brady is on par for a very average season.

It has begun.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/4chantamahan/coolstorybro2.jpg

The Patriot
10-12-2009, 05:07 PM
Hey, look what I found.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/4chantamahan/protectiveskirt.jpg

NJarhead
10-12-2009, 08:12 PM
Anyone see the shot to the knees that Kyle Orton took at the end of regulation? No flags on the Pats for that one and it was B-L-A-T-A-N-T! :banging:

AllD
10-12-2009, 08:32 PM
Anyone see the shot to the knees that Kyle Orton took at the end of regulation? No flags on the Pats for that one and it was B-L-A-T-A-N-T! :banging:


It never happened. all the existing video of that play was confiscated and burned by the NFL.

revefsreleets
10-13-2009, 09:24 AM
The defense is aging?:rofl:
Average age is 28...and there are a couple young guys that REALLY help that stat out.

Fact is, this defense is hardly elite...and there are several reasons for that.