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NEWstevo
10-12-2009, 05:29 AM
Long time reader, first time poster under my NEW name (forgot password, easier just to start over).
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The box score shows that the Steelers defense gave up 11 of 18 third down conversions (which is more than both teams in the Bronco’s – Pats game, and they went into OT). And several of those plays were 3rd and L O N G !

And, that was against a rebuilding Lions team, with a back up QB and had lost its only good player in the 1st quarter.

Ouch.

Pittsburgh’s offense basically won every game so far, it is only because of the bending/breaking defense that their record is 3-2. So much for last year’s legendary number one defense.

I haven’t lost faith. Pittsburgh is the best team in the division and they will come around. Cincy is a mediocre team that has gotten very lucky, and good for them. But as Dan Patrick says… the Bengals will somehow find the banana peel. They always do.

The Ravens are a broken team. Giving up a 100 yard rusher? They won’t go far either.

The Steelers should be fine, and we will all live longer if they can just start playing in the 4th quarter.

Go Steelers!

Steelers & I
10-12-2009, 05:49 AM
This just goes to show us how VERY IMPORTANT #43 is to the Steelers defense, yeah, he's that good. Considering that the Steelers are currently the #5 (NUMBER FIVE) ranked defense in the NFL, and that's without Troy's assistance for the past month, then really, how can anyone complain? I knew right away that the Steelers would have problems with Tyrone Carter filling in for Troy so I'm actually thrilled that they've done this well.

FacemeIke
10-12-2009, 10:08 AM
I don't think missing Troy is the only issue. But Dick L. will figure things out, I have faith in that. Its tough for the D to live up to the standards of last year though.

I only saw Carter in on 1 or 2 plays the whole game though, things will be completely different with Troy.

JHSilverback
10-12-2009, 10:40 AM
The third and long conversions came off of alot of underneath passes to a halfback or tightend with an occasion run by the qb....but this is how the system works we eliminate big plays by allowing these short passes..now the reason why we stopped more of these last season is based on the fact of Troy patrolling the whole field but, with him now back I'm sure there is gonna be a huge difference on how many of these plays result in conversions along with the sack count going up because qbs will realize that #43 is in the area...this defense does have some other minor issues but, is one spark away from becoming the #1 defense in the nfl

Vis
10-12-2009, 12:53 PM
The problem is the intensity of last year is gone. It was there for 3 plays at the end of the game. It needs to show up for the whole game.

Dino 6 Rings
10-12-2009, 12:58 PM
Ratliff...I have ZERO confidence in this guy at this point. I'd rather see the old man Townsend out there every down instead of this fool.

Ratliff makes me almost miss Anthony Smith

JHSilverback
10-12-2009, 05:17 PM
The problem is the intensity of last year is gone. It was there for 3 plays at the end of the game. It needs to show up for the whole game.

yea but I think those last three plays sparked a fire back into the defense and that were going to see a whole lot more of that

JHSilverback
10-12-2009, 05:19 PM
Ratliff...I have ZERO confidence in this guy at this point. I'd rather see the old man Townsend out there every down instead of this fool.

Ratliff makes me almost miss Anthony Smith

true but, he is also the person trying to fill in what troy does from time to time and its a new system for him...he'll catch on eventually

Preacher
10-12-2009, 06:08 PM
I always find it amazing when some people think that 1 person is the problem/answer to everything.

Troy isn't the answer to all our problems. Yes, he is arguably the best safety in the NFL and outright the best SS in the NFL. But if his play alone means that we are the difference between average and outstanding, then I question Dick Lebeau's ability to be coach. I DONT question LeBeau's ability, which means I DONT think that all the eggs are in the Troy P. basket. Teams STUDY THE BEST. We were the best last year, thus, we got studied. All it takes is ONE team to find a weakness against us, and it gets exploited until fixed. On top of that, we have a LB that seems to just be finally recovering from a high ankle sprain and a CB that is just adjusting to full-time duty.

Ratliff isn't the horrid problem. He got burned a couple times late in the San Diego game by the TE, but so did Timmons (ankle). He's doing fine all in all. Good to have him aboard, but it would be nice if we can fill his shoes with a another CB draft pick next year (mid round).

When you add ALL those things together... you get a defense that is just inches away from making big plays and putting teams away (literally! In the Bengals and the Bears games, we came within inches of getting drive ending sacks at the end). Now, it seems we are closing that distance. A little better coverage, a little better special teams play, a little better rushing from our LB's, a little better scheming by LeBeau late. A little better running (well, quite a bit better), and we are starting to win.

Watch for the trend to continue.

THEN we get Troy back. Troy isn't the cam or piston that makes the crankshaft turn, he is the nitrous that multiplies the power. Our problems now are basic, but they are getting straitened out. Then inject the Nitrous and watch what happens!

GridironWarrior
10-12-2009, 06:18 PM
And remember, it's gonna take Troy some time to get back into the form he was in week 1 since he's been off for a while. So don't be so harsh on him if he makes a mistake.

SteelerFanInStl
10-12-2009, 06:27 PM
And remember, it's gonna take Troy some time to get back into the form he was in week 1 since he's been off for a while. So don't be so harsh on him if he makes a mistake.

Good thing he gets a warm up game against the Clowns. :toofunny:

AllD
10-12-2009, 06:27 PM
Our passing D is very suspect. We are average at best which will guarantee a loss against any passing team like the Colts or the Saints.

I am thinking playoffs, but we still have to get enough wins to make them. Expect a Bungles meltdown after we play them again. Much like the Redskins were never the same after we played them last season. The Rats are already going in reverse with a little help from the zebras.

MACH1
10-12-2009, 06:32 PM
I always find it amazing when some people think that 1 person is the problem/answer to everything.

Troy isn't the answer to all our problems.

That pretty much sums it all up in a nutshell.

It's the little things here and there. I have no doubts that they will get them ironed out.

Steelers & I
10-12-2009, 07:02 PM
I always find it amazing when some people think that 1 person is the problem/answer to everything.
Troy isn't the answer to all our problems. Yes, he is arguably the best safety in the NFL and outright the best SS in the NFL. But if his play alone means that we are the difference between average and outstanding, then I question Dick Lebeau's ability to be coach. I DONT question LeBeau's ability, which means I DONT think that all the eggs are in the Troy P. basket. Teams STUDY THE BEST. We were the best last year, thus, we got studied. All it takes is ONE team to find a weakness against us, and it gets exploited until fixed. On top of that, we have a LB that seems to just be finally recovering from a high ankle sprain and a CB that is just adjusting to full-time duty.

Ratliff isn't the horrid problem. He got burned a couple times late in the San Diego game by the TE, but so did Timmons (ankle). He's doing fine all in all. Good to have him aboard, but it would be nice if we can fill his shoes with a another CB draft pick next year (mid round).

When you add ALL those things together... you get a defense that is just inches away from making big plays and putting teams away (literally! In the Bengals and the Bears games, we came within inches of getting drive ending sacks at the end). Now, it seems we are closing that distance. A little better coverage, a little better special teams play, a little better rushing from our LB's, a little better scheming by LeBeau late. A little better running (well, quite a bit better), and we are starting to win.

Watch for the trend to continue.

THEN we get Troy back. Troy isn't the cam or piston that makes the crankshaft turn, he is the nitrous that multiplies the power. Our problems now are basic, but they are getting straitened out. Then inject the Nitrous and watch what happens!

Yeah it's AMAZING that anyone would believe that, huh? Lets say for instance that Ben Roethlisberger was injured and was out for 6 weeks. Would you expect the offense to be the same with Charlie Batch under center? Yeah, that's what I thought. 1 man can make a tremendous difference and Troy is to the Steelers defense what Ben is to the offense.

Psyychoward86
10-12-2009, 07:02 PM
yeah it is disappointing. If i recall correctly, werent we #1 in 3rd and long situations last year?

At least we won :noidea:. But we cant keep this up forever. imo, we havent beaten a truly legitimate team yet

AllD
10-12-2009, 07:26 PM
Bud Carson's applicable obituary from 2005:

Former Steelers coach dead at 75
Buzz up!By Mike Prisuta, TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, December 8, 2005

The image is unforgettable for those who roamed the halls of St. Vincent College with the Steelers in the early to mid-1970s: A dark room on the first floor of Bonaventure Hall and a projector grinding out flickering images on a screen interrupted only by the wafting smoke from an ever-present cigarette.
That was Freeport native Leon Halden "Bud" Carson.

The legacy is unmistakable: NFL teams such as the undefeated 2005 Indianapolis Colts confounding opponents by playing the "Cover 2" defense first concocted more than 30 years ago by a relentless strategist who never tired of studying players and schemes and tendencies and trying to come up with an even better way of playing the game.

That was Bud Carson, too.

Carson passed away Wednesday in Sarasota, Fla., after a battle with emphysema.

He was 75.

He is survived by his wife, Linda; daughters, Dana and Cathi; a son, Clifford; a stepson, Gary Ford; three brothers, Guy, Harry and Gib; two grandchildren; and the scheme that made Carson a football immortal in the estimation of at least one of his former players.

"For the last decade or so, I've told people I thought he should be in the Hall of Fame," former Steelers safety Mike Wagner said. "He was the major contributor to the Pittsburgh defenses in the 1970s.

"We played the 'Cover 2' defense that is still in vogue but also still a mystery."

Wagner said Carson never took credit for pioneering "Cover 2," but current Colts coach Tony Dungy, a Steelers defensive back from 1977-78, has said the "Cover 2" techniques he's relied upon in Tampa Bay and Indianapolis came "straight from the 1973 Steelers playbook."

Steelers running backs coach Dick Hoak seconds the notion that Carson helped father the concept built upon two safeties splitting the field deep as a hedge against blitzing defenses falling vulnerable to the big play in an increasingly pass-happy NFL.

"I know Bud was one of the first to run 'Cover 2,' " Hoak said.

Carson went 27-27 as the head coach at Georgia Tech from 1967-71. He became the Steelers' defensive coordinator in 1972, the same year Hoak and defensive line coach George Perles came aboard.

At the time, Chuck Noll had experienced three losing seasons in three years as the Steelers coach and could offer nothing in the way of long-term guarantees.

The Steelers went 11-3 in 1972 and won Super Bowls following the 1974 and 1975 seasons.

Carson's 1976 defense pitched five shutouts, including three in a row, and allowed just 28 points in nine games after quarterback Terry Bradshaw was injured during a 1-4 start.

"Quite a feat," Steelers chairman Dan Rooney said.

"Bud Carson really understood that the game is played with athletes and not necessarily with head-butters," former Steelers scout Bill Nunn said.

Carson never stopped scheming ways to get the most from the athletes Nunn, the scouting staff and personnel department provided.

"I can remember standing in a tunnel waiting to come onto a field and Chuck (Noll) would be reminding me of our checks," Wagner said. "And I'd tell him, 'No, Chuck, Bud changed that on the way from the locker room to the field.' "

Carson left the Steelers following the 1977 season to take a job with the Rams, believing he'd eventually have a better chance to become a head coach in Los Angeles.

He wound up having to wait until 1989 before finally becoming one, replacing Marty Schottenheimer as the coach of the Cleveland Browns.

Carson went 9-6-1 and to the AFC Championship Game in his first season and was fired following a 2-7 start in his second.

His reputation as a defensive genius never lost an ounce of luster.

Carson went on to coordinate defenses for the New York Jets, Philadelphia Eagles and St. Louis Rams before retiring in 1998.

Rams coach Mike Martz convinced Carson to return as a consultant midway through the 2000 season.

"Bud is one of the top two or three defensive coaches in the history of the game," Martz said at the time.

Rooney put it in terms Carson might have found more appealing.

"I might say he coached the greatest defense that ever played in the National Football League," Rooney said.

"He will be missed."





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Subscribe to the Tribune-Review today

hellbread
10-12-2009, 07:30 PM
Troy is the x-factor. Teams aren't passing on our corners they are passing right down the middle. Our run D is solid pass D not so much.

Preacher
10-12-2009, 07:56 PM
Yeah it's AMAZING that anyone would believe that, huh? Lets say for instance that Ben Roethlisberger was injured and was out for 6 weeks. Would you expect the offense to be the same with Charlie Batch under center? Yeah, that's what I thought. 1 man can make a tremendous difference and Troy is to the Steelers defense what Ben is to the offense.

Um.

Troy isn't the center of every defensive play. Every tackle isn't dependent on Troy delivering the ball.

There is no comparison between a QB and a defensive player. Even the NFL recognizes the difference. After all, how many rule changes are made to protect defenses as compared to QB's?

The only rule change I know of, was caused by Ward.. . . and that wasn't to protect a POSITION.

SO once again, there is NO defensive position that should drop this defense from being absolutely great, to being a little above average if we lose JUST that player.

There is much more going on.

OneForTheToe
10-12-2009, 09:14 PM
Bud Carson's applicable obituary from 2005:

Former Steelers coach dead at 75
Buzz up!By Mike Prisuta, TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, December 8, 2005

The image is unforgettable for those who roamed the halls of St. Vincent College with the Steelers in the early to mid-1970s: A dark room on the first floor of Bonaventure Hall and a projector grinding out flickering images on a screen interrupted only by the wafting smoke from an ever-present cigarette.
That was Freeport native Leon Halden "Bud" Carson.

The legacy is unmistakable: NFL teams such as the undefeated 2005 Indianapolis Colts confounding opponents by playing the "Cover 2" defense first concocted more than 30 years ago by a relentless strategist who never tired of studying players and schemes and tendencies and trying to come up with an even better way of playing the game.

That was Bud Carson, too.

Carson passed away Wednesday in Sarasota, Fla., after a battle with emphysema.

He was 75.

He is survived by his wife, Linda; daughters, Dana and Cathi; a son, Clifford; a stepson, Gary Ford; three brothers, Guy, Harry and Gib; two grandchildren; and the scheme that made Carson a football immortal in the estimation of at least one of his former players.

"For the last decade or so, I've told people I thought he should be in the Hall of Fame," former Steelers safety Mike Wagner said. "He was the major contributor to the Pittsburgh defenses in the 1970s.

"We played the 'Cover 2' defense that is still in vogue but also still a mystery."

Wagner said Carson never took credit for pioneering "Cover 2," but current Colts coach Tony Dungy, a Steelers defensive back from 1977-78, has said the "Cover 2" techniques he's relied upon in Tampa Bay and Indianapolis came "straight from the 1973 Steelers playbook."

Steelers running backs coach Dick Hoak seconds the notion that Carson helped father the concept built upon two safeties splitting the field deep as a hedge against blitzing defenses falling vulnerable to the big play in an increasingly pass-happy NFL.

"I know Bud was one of the first to run 'Cover 2,' " Hoak said.

Carson went 27-27 as the head coach at Georgia Tech from 1967-71. He became the Steelers' defensive coordinator in 1972, the same year Hoak and defensive line coach George Perles came aboard.

At the time, Chuck Noll had experienced three losing seasons in three years as the Steelers coach and could offer nothing in the way of long-term guarantees.

The Steelers went 11-3 in 1972 and won Super Bowls following the 1974 and 1975 seasons.

Carson's 1976 defense pitched five shutouts, including three in a row, and allowed just 28 points in nine games after quarterback Terry Bradshaw was injured during a 1-4 start.

"Quite a feat," Steelers chairman Dan Rooney said.

"Bud Carson really understood that the game is played with athletes and not necessarily with head-butters," former Steelers scout Bill Nunn said.

Carson never stopped scheming ways to get the most from the athletes Nunn, the scouting staff and personnel department provided.

"I can remember standing in a tunnel waiting to come onto a field and Chuck (Noll) would be reminding me of our checks," Wagner said. "And I'd tell him, 'No, Chuck, Bud changed that on the way from the locker room to the field.' "

Carson left the Steelers following the 1977 season to take a job with the Rams, believing he'd eventually have a better chance to become a head coach in Los Angeles.

He wound up having to wait until 1989 before finally becoming one, replacing Marty Schottenheimer as the coach of the Cleveland Browns.

Carson went 9-6-1 and to the AFC Championship Game in his first season and was fired following a 2-7 start in his second.

His reputation as a defensive genius never lost an ounce of luster.

Carson went on to coordinate defenses for the New York Jets, Philadelphia Eagles and St. Louis Rams before retiring in 1998.

Rams coach Mike Martz convinced Carson to return as a consultant midway through the 2000 season.

"Bud is one of the top two or three defensive coaches in the history of the game," Martz said at the time.

Rooney put it in terms Carson might have found more appealing.

"I might say he coached the greatest defense that ever played in the National Football League," Rooney said.

"He will be missed."





More Steelers headlines
Steelers able to tame Lions
Harris: Big Ben finally gets elite treatment
Late press from Steelers ruins Lions' opportunities
Parker, Polamalu still out for Steelers
Colts QB Manning climbs TD list
Jets standing as a big test for Dolphins
Steelers' Starks to be arts benefit's honorary host
Steelers' Miller a great catch at TE
Subscribe to the Tribune-Review today


RIP Bud ... you did indeed create the best defenses (based on excellence over time) in the history of the NFL.

Steelers & I
10-13-2009, 12:30 AM
Um.

Troy isn't the center of every defensive play. Every tackle isn't dependent on Troy delivering the ball.

There is no comparison between a QB and a defensive player. Even the NFL recognizes the difference. After all, how many rule changes are made to protect defenses as compared to QB's?

The only rule change I know of, was caused by Ward.. . . and that wasn't to protect a POSITION.

SO once again, there is NO defensive position that should drop this defense from being absolutely great, to being a little above average if we lose JUST that player.

There is much more going on.

I disagree, Troy IS that important to this defense. There's a HUGE drop off when comparing Troy to Tyrone Carter, an absolute HUGE drop off in talent. Look at the plays that Troy made during the half of a game that he played in this season, WOW! Have you seen Carter do ANYTHING remotely close to that? When Troy returns things will get back to normal. And by normal I'm not saying that they'll play at last years level, that was probably a one year performance. I certainly don't expect them to play at that level every season. They're ranked 5th in the NFL right now, that's nothing to complain about, especially when you factor in Troy's absence for the past 4 weeks. So how do you figure that there's so much going on with the defense when they're ranked 5th in the NFL? Sorry Preacher, 5th in the NFL is FAR better than "a little above average." So maybe they won't finish #1 this year, who cares? That doesn't mean that they're a disappointment. That doesn't mean that "there is much more going on." Troy's absence is what's going on, that's all.

MACH1
10-13-2009, 01:24 AM
Yeah it's AMAZING that anyone would believe that, huh? Lets say for instance that Ben Roethlisberger was injured and was out for 6 weeks. Would you expect the offense to be the same with Charlie Batch under center? Yeah, that's what I thought. 1 man can make a tremendous difference and Troy is to the Steelers defense what Ben is to the offense.

Yeah, I guess your right. The whole defense revolves around Troy like the whole offense revolves around the qb. :coffee:

augustashark
10-13-2009, 02:06 AM
:coffee:

I just love the little coffee smiley. Just wanted to use it, carry on. Steelers suck!

Steelers & I
10-13-2009, 02:30 AM
Yeah, I guess your right. The whole defense revolves around Troy like the whole offense revolves around the qb. :coffee:

Some of you people will say ANYTHING in order to disagree. I never said that "whole defense revolves around Troy." What I'm saying is that he's a VERY SIGNIFICANT element to the Steelers defensive success. But apparently, just because a few of you can never resist the temptation to disagree, we're supposed to SOMEHOW view Troy Polamalu as a minor contributor to the overall success of the defense.

The sky is falling, there's many things wrong with the Steelers defense, right?

Preacher
10-13-2009, 03:18 AM
I disagree, Troy IS that important to this defense. There's a HUGE drop off when comparing Troy to Tyrone Carter, an absolute HUGE drop off in talent. Look at the plays that Troy made during the half of a game that he played in this season, WOW! Have you seen Carter do ANYTHING remotely close to that? When Troy returns things will get back to normal. And by normal I'm not saying that they'll play at last years level, that was probably a one year performance. I certainly don't expect them to play at that level every season. They're ranked 5th in the NFL right now, that's nothing to complain about, especially when you factor in Troy's absence for the past 4 weeks. So how do you figure that there's so much going on with the defense when they're ranked 5th in the NFL? Sorry Preacher, 5th in the NFL is FAR better than "a little above average." So maybe they won't finish #1 this year, who cares? That doesn't mean that they're a disappointment. That doesn't mean that "there is much more going on." Troy's absence is what's going on, that's all.

Let's be a little more honest with 'em stats now shall we?

tied 5th for overall yards per game. Good stat, HOWEVER,

Points per game, we are in a 3 way tie for 14th place. That is just a tad above average.
Pass Yards Per game, we are alone in 14th place.
Rush yards per game, we are in 3rd place.

So, what does that tell you? It says that teams have found out they don't need to run against us. They can throw the ball and score. Now, let's look back at how many passes even went to Carter's guys? 8? 9? let's say Carter is only a quarter as good as Troy in defending them... so Troy gets 4 pass defended as opposed to Carter's 1. Let's say 6 even.

Now, are you really going to tell me that those 6 will move our pass defense from 14th place up to the upper tier? That they will ALL come in the fourth quarter when our D is getting ripped apart through the air? Oh, but wait, much of the 4th quarter problems are the underneath passes that are eating us up (after about 3-5 seconds of holding the ball), which means the deep routes are covered.... So therefore, are you telling me that Troy will be defending the UNDERNEATH stuff ALL the time, which is where a majority of these yards are coming from? That troy will take over TE coverage duties all the time, since it is Ratliff, Timmons, and sometimes Harrison that is actually playing against the TE (Hint, none of them are SS's either).

My point still stands. The problem with our pass defense right now (yes, I included pass here, because that really IS the focus of this discussion for me) is something more basic than just a SS... even someone like Troy.

After all, if we have to depend on Troy playing like he played the first game, then we are in series trouble. Because he simply can't and won't play like that every game.
_______

FWIW, I think Lebeau is just playing a bit conservative right now for some reason. As I said before, Timmons ankle getting healthy is part of it. Gay learning the starting ropes is another part of it. Harrison getting back on track is a great thing, and probably is partly due to Timmons ankle injury healing (can't overload focus on Harrison).

Preacher
10-13-2009, 03:39 AM
Yeah it's AMAZING that anyone would believe that, huh? Lets say for instance that Ben Roethlisberger was injured and was out for 6 weeks. Would you expect the offense to be the same with Charlie Batch under center? Yeah, that's what I thought. 1 man can make a tremendous difference and Troy is to the Steelers defense what Ben is to the offense.

Um... this quote is suggesting that it is a fair comparison between Ben and Troy... Since my argument was that no one defensive player is the answer to everything... which you then compare to Ben....
Some of you people will say ANYTHING in order to disagree. I never said that "whole defense revolves around Troy." What I'm saying is that he's a VERY SIGNIFICANT element to the Steelers defensive success. But apparently, just because a few of you can never resist the temptation to disagree, we're supposed to SOMEHOW view Troy Polamalu as a minor contributor to the overall success of the defense.

The sky is falling, there's many things wrong with the Steelers defense, right?

You are insinuating that he is as significant to the defense as Ben is to the offense. Ben has the entire offense revolving around him. The playbook was drafted WITH HIS HELP. So a comparison does insinuate that very thing.

Now, please tell ME where I said that Troy P. is a MINOR contributor? I said he is the Nitrous that pours into the engine... he supercharges the entire defense. Not sure how that can be considered "minor". However, in my estimation, the problem isn't with the play of the SS, but with the play of the ENTIRE DEFENSE ON THE PASS.

Follow my logic here on Carter... He has had 7 tackles, and yet hasn't missed a tackle on his guy this year. That means that he has probably only been targeted 7 times, with 1 pass defended. That means only 6 times the ball comes to him... (don't have last sunday's stats) Now, as I said in teh lsat post... you really think that those six passes will make the ENTIRE DIFFERENCE in a game with Troy there?

No. the problem is more basic than that...

So that means that

1. No one is diminishing Troy's ability or play. What we ARE diminishing, is the fact that Troy takes up 1 spot on a field of 11, not 4. (sarcasm, not literal).

2. No one is claiming "the sky is falling" We are pointing out that there are some SPECIFIC and BASIC problems that will be fixed over the next few weeks.

3. BTW, if not having Troy is the problem, then why can we shut down teams for 3 quarters? Why are they only able to drive starting in the 4th quarter? does Troy get hurt in the 3rd quarter every week?

Preacher
10-13-2009, 03:50 AM
You call out his stats and then make huge guesses to support your argument. Troy is that important, he is our eraser. Almost all of the Ds plays focus on him. They send extra rushers, because they know Troy can cover up the back end. They drop more LBers into coverage, because they know Troy can support he run so strongly. Harrison makes sacks, because the QB has to double clutch wondering where troy is going to pop up.

No, they don't. Lebeau's zone blitz was around a long time before Troy was ever there. That same system will be around long after Troy is gone. The defense is not centered around Troy, but around the front 7. The three big, ugly lineman taking up too many gaps and allowing the LB's to come free to the QB since they don't have to worry about the run through another gap. That same ZONE-blitz scheme pulls lb's into coverage, and even lineman. It is the EXACT same system he ran in 92-96.

What YOU are referring to, is how they put twists in the system for Troy. How they allow him to wander and basically play the soccer equivelent of Rover. It was the same thing I was referring to as the Nitrous for the engine. However, Troy wandering isn't the BASE of our defense.

In this system, EVERY safety AND CB supports the run, or they are gone. Carnell Lake was the last one. Remember him and what he did? He was with lebeau last time.

Harrison makes his sacks because he gets to the QB in under 3 seconds, if he isn't being molested by a lineman. He makes his sacks because if they double him, Woodely, Timmons, or Farrior may get to the QB. He gets his sacks because WR's are afraid to come over the middle on Clark. He gets his sacks because Ike is dang close to a shut-down receiver. He ALSO gets his sacks because Troy causes him to second guess.

And that is EXACTLY my point. Troy is one of 11. He isn't the magical elixir. He is great... but unless he is now covering 2 and 3 players every play, I don't see him being the be all end all of our problems.

Steelers & I
10-13-2009, 05:43 AM
Um... this quote is suggesting that it is a fair comparison between Ben and Troy... Since my argument was that no one defensive player is the answer to everything... which you then compare to Ben....


You are insinuating that he is as significant to the defense as Ben is to the offense. Ben has the entire offense revolving around him. The playbook was drafted WITH HIS HELP. So a comparison does insinuate that very thing.

Now, please tell ME where I said that Troy P. is a MINOR contributor? I said he is the Nitrous that pours into the engine... he supercharges the entire defense. Not sure how that can be considered "minor". However, in my estimation, the problem isn't with the play of the SS, but with the play of the ENTIRE DEFENSE ON THE PASS.

Follow my logic here on Carter... He has had 7 tackles, and yet hasn't missed a tackle on his guy this year. That means that he has probably only been targeted 7 times, with 1 pass defended. That means only 6 times the ball comes to him... (don't have last sunday's stats) Now, as I said in teh lsat post... you really think that those six passes will make the ENTIRE DIFFERENCE in a game with Troy there?

No. the problem is more basic than that...

So that means that

1. No one is diminishing Troy's ability or play. What we ARE diminishing, is the fact that Troy takes up 1 spot on a field of 11, not 4. (sarcasm, not literal).

2. No one is claiming "the sky is falling" We are pointing out that there are some SPECIFIC and BASIC problems that will be fixed over the next few weeks.

3. BTW, if not having Troy is the problem, then why can we shut down teams for 3 quarters? Why are they only able to drive starting in the 4th quarter? does Troy get hurt in the 3rd quarter every week?

I'll just take the "wait and see" approach. I think that the defense will be just fine when Troy returns.

Preacher
10-13-2009, 06:00 AM
I'll just take the "wait and see" approach. I think that the defense will be just fine when Troy returns.

I'll change that to... I think the D will be just fine at the right time of the year, and troy's return will help, but not cure it.

solardave
10-13-2009, 07:33 AM
And remember, it's gonna take Troy some time to get back into the form he was in week 1 since he's been off for a while. So don't be so harsh on him if he makes a mistake.

I'm sure if Troy does not come right out and play at pro bowl level there will be a thread saying he's all washed up. The reason I think the defense is not running on all cylinders is the intensity is down. Troy brings intensity and that is why I predict his return will spark the defense we all know and love.

JHSilverback
10-13-2009, 03:19 PM
I'll change that to... I think the D will be just fine at the right time of the year, and troy's return will help, but not cure it.

I agree with this 100%

pitt0wns
10-13-2009, 04:00 PM
Tyrone Carter sucks bad and what bugs me is how he hops around the field acting like he is Mr. Bad Boy.

Chicago game Knox burnt him twice on the same play.

If you watch them in the 2nd half its like they have no hunger and don't really care. Like we got 2 rings were good.

devilsdancefloor
10-13-2009, 04:55 PM
Tyrone Carter sucks bad and what bugs me is how he hops around the field acting like he is Mr. Bad Boy.

Chicago game Knox burnt him twice on the same play.

If you watch them in the 2nd half its like they have no hunger and don't really care. Like we got 2 rings were good.

Do you watch the games? You cant be serious, if you watch the games. I really do not think that the defense wants to be labeled as a one hit wonder. They are in a funk and we have won 3 of the 5 games we played. Can we play better YES, but to say they are not hungry is just wrong.

steeltheone
10-13-2009, 06:15 PM
Getting really old in some key spots...This concerns me.

Steelers & I
10-20-2009, 02:39 AM
Let's be a little more honest with 'em stats now shall we?

tied 5th for overall yards per game. Good stat, HOWEVER,

Points per game, we are in a 3 way tie for 14th place. That is just a tad above average.
Pass Yards Per game, we are alone in 14th place.
Rush yards per game, we are in 3rd place.

So, what does that tell you? It says that teams have found out they don't need to run against us. They can throw the ball and score. Now, let's look back at how many passes even went to Carter's guys? 8? 9? let's say Carter is only a quarter as good as Troy in defending them... so Troy gets 4 pass defended as opposed to Carter's 1. Let's say 6 even.

Now, are you really going to tell me that those 6 will move our pass defense from 14th place up to the upper tier? That they will ALL come in the fourth quarter when our D is getting ripped apart through the air? Oh, but wait, much of the 4th quarter problems are the underneath passes that are eating us up (after about 3-5 seconds of holding the ball), which means the deep routes are covered.... So therefore, are you telling me that Troy will be defending the UNDERNEATH stuff ALL the time, which is where a majority of these yards are coming from? That troy will take over TE coverage duties all the time, since it is Ratliff, Timmons, and sometimes Harrison that is actually playing against the TE (Hint, none of them are SS's either).

My point still stands. The problem with our pass defense right now (yes, I included pass here, because that really IS the focus of this discussion for me) is something more basic than just a SS... even someone like Troy.

After all, if we have to depend on Troy playing like he played the first game, then we are in series trouble. Because he simply can't and won't play like that every game.
_______

FWIW, I think Lebeau is just playing a bit conservative right now for some reason. As I said before, Timmons ankle getting healthy is part of it. Gay learning the starting ropes is another part of it. Harrison getting back on track is a great thing, and probably is partly due to Timmons ankle injury healing (can't overload focus on Harrison).

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l13/bkakers/who1.jpg

Steelers & I
10-20-2009, 02:40 AM
I'll change that to... I think the D will be just fine at the right time of the year, and troy's return will help, but not cure it.

:doh::doh::doh::doh:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l13/bkakers/EbAdLz7RCjfhlhe1KJyQWDg7o1_400.jpg


CURED!