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View Full Version : Body of small child found in Georgia landfill.


Edman
10-21-2009, 06:50 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33410779/ns/today-today_people/

It hasn't been identified yet, but the articles chances it was the same little girl who gone missing in Florida since Monday.

tony hipchest
10-21-2009, 07:14 PM
i often feel paranoid and strict, but my 6 year old girl goes to school half a block from her grandparents, but shes not allowed to walk home from school.

she is not allowed to ride her bike, scooter or big wheel all the way down our sidewalk unless someone is watching, just to the perimeter of our yard and maybe in front of the neighbors. most certainly not allowed to ride around the block.

i hate being so protective, because when i was 6 i was all over the place on my bike w/o supervision. i was never bussed to school and never had a ride, ever since kindergarten.

at 7 or 8 years old i was allowed to go trick or treating alone.

what a shame millions of adults have to live in fear of this type of shit happening.

the threat of terrorists has got nothing on the fear and precautions i take on a daily basis in regards to my baby.

its bad, and i hate being the "mean dad".

Preacher
10-21-2009, 07:23 PM
i often feel paranoid and strict, but my 6 year old girl goes to school half a block from her grandparents, but shes not allowed to walk home from school.

she is not allowed to ride her bike, scooter or big wheel all the way down our sidewalk unless someone is watching, just to the perimeter of our yard and maybe in front of the neighbors. most certainly not allowed to ride around the block.

i hate being so protective, because when i was 6 i was all over the place on my bike w/o supervision. i was never bussed to school and never had a ride, ever since kindergarten.

at 7 or 8 years old i was allowed to go trick or treating alone.

what a shame millions of adults have to live in fear of this type of shit happening.

the threat of terrorists has got nothing on the fear and precautions i take on a daily basis in regards to my baby.

its bad, and i hate being the "mean dad".

All of our back and forth aside--

When she is old enough, and has children of her own, you will become the "loving caring dad" as she looks back over her childhood.

In my ministry Tony, its parents like you whom I seldom worry about.

tony hipchest
10-21-2009, 08:11 PM
thanks preach...

while i am definitely over protective, i am also very liberal with her. i let her hold tarantulas, and have a pet snake.

she is a daredevil and has no fear, and i culture that spirit with a guided eye.

i have taken her hiking in places where even i probably shouldnt be hiking. allowed her to ride on jet skis, and swim in a lake off a boat with a vest (even though she didnt know how to swim). let her run and jump into a pool to me w/o a vest to teach her to swim, and took her on the jackrabbit at kennywood (even though she was really too small).

she can play any sport or do any activity she wants, as long as i am there. if she wanted to go sky diving or hang gliding, i would probably strap her to my chest and say "lets do it".

the point in all this is to build trust, to fear nothing but appreciate danger, to have fun, live and love life, and to know she is always safe with daddy.

to read about shit like this in the news is absolutely disgusting and a reason i will ALWAYS be a proponent of the death penalty.

always.

Preacher
10-21-2009, 08:30 PM
thanks preach...

while i am definitely over protective, i am also very liberal with her. i let her hold tarantulas, and have a pet snake.

she is a daredevil and has no fear, and i culture that spirit with a guided eye.

i have taken her hiking in places where even i probably shouldnt be hiking. allowed her to ride on jet skis, and swim in a lake off a boat with a vest (even though she didnt know how to swim). let her run and jump into a pool to me w/o a vest to teach her to swim, and took her on the jackrabbit at kennywood (even though she was really too small).

she can play any sport or do any activity she wants, as long as i am there. if she wanted to go sky diving or hang gliding, i would probably strap her to my chest and say "lets do it".

the point in all this is to build trust, to fear nothing but appreciate danger, to have fun, live and love life, and to know she is always safe with daddy.

to read about shit like this in the news is absolutely disgusting and a reason i will ALWAYS be a proponent of the death penalty.

always.

:thumbsup:

that's about it.

Steelboy84
10-21-2009, 08:55 PM
i often feel paranoid and strict, but my 6 year old girl goes to school half a block from her grandparents, but shes not allowed to walk home from school.

she is not allowed to ride her bike, scooter or big wheel all the way down our sidewalk unless someone is watching, just to the perimeter of our yard and maybe in front of the neighbors. most certainly not allowed to ride around the block.

i hate being so protective, because when i was 6 i was all over the place on my bike w/o supervision. i was never bussed to school and never had a ride, ever since kindergarten.

at 7 or 8 years old i was allowed to go trick or treating alone.

what a shame millions of adults have to live in fear of this type of shit happening.

the threat of terrorists has got nothing on the fear and precautions i take on a daily basis in regards to my baby.

its bad, and i hate being the "mean dad".


With all the junk that goes on in the world today, I can't blame you one bit.

Preacher
10-21-2009, 09:10 PM
As many of you know, my wife and I are in the process of adoption right now.

I'll be honest with you, I doubt my child will see the inside of a stadium or even disneyland until he/she is 14.

There is just no way.

Galax Steeler
10-22-2009, 05:10 AM
thanks preach...

while i am definitely over protective, i am also very liberal with her. i let her hold tarantulas, and have a pet snake.

she is a daredevil and has no fear, and i culture that spirit with a guided eye.

i have taken her hiking in places where even i probably shouldnt be hiking. allowed her to ride on jet skis, and swim in a lake off a boat with a vest (even though she didnt know how to swim). let her run and jump into a pool to me w/o a vest to teach her to swim, and took her on the jackrabbit at kennywood (even though she was really too small).

she can play any sport or do any activity she wants, as long as i am there. if she wanted to go sky diving or hang gliding, i would probably strap her to my chest and say "lets do it".

the point in all this is to build trust, to fear nothing but appreciate danger, to have fun, live and love life, and to know she is always safe with daddy.

to read about shit like this in the news is absolutely disgusting and a reason i will ALWAYS be a proponent of the death penalty.

always.

You have to let them be kids and let them do things. You also have to protect them I have let my 8 year old do things I shouldn't but I want him to be a kid and enjoy his child hood.

revefsreleets
10-22-2009, 08:50 AM
I'm taking my first real attempts at parenting (my girlfriends kids) and I try to be rational about it...we live in a constant state of fear, which is HEAVILY fascilitated by the pop media. I truly believe that things were always like this we just know more about it now, and that the chances of soemthing truly awful happening to her kids are far too remote to really worry about.

I read this this morning and it's certainly timely and germane...

http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/65432587.html

Flights of fear at heart of parenting

By Ruth Marcus
Washington Post

Published on Thursday, Oct 22, 2009

WASHINGTON: In the matter of Falcon Heene, the 6-year-old boy who stashed himself — or was stashed by his parents — in the attic while a frantic world thought he was adrift in a homemade balloon, let us stipulate a few things:

That there is something presumptively wrong with people who name their children after birds of prey; that the Heenes, if this was indeed a hoax, make Jon and Kate look like Ward and June; that Andy Warhol was right, except his 15 minutes have stretched to 30 in the age of cable; that a constitutional amendment to prohibit parents from exploiting their kids on reality TV shows might be in order.

But all that isn't what really interests me. What interests me — and what I suspect helped make the episode so compelling — is Balloon Boy's flight as metaphor for the process of parenting. You might say it doesn't take much to command wall-to-wall cable coverage, and that would be a fair point. Any random freeway chase will fill up the time nicely if there is helicopter footage available in real time.

Yet it is the threatened child, for obvious reasons, who truly grabs our attention: the toddler trapped in the well, the third-grader snatched from her bedroom, the teen gone missing — and, as my colleague Eugene Robinson tartly pointed out a few years back, the blonder the better.

If you are a parent, you know — in one of those ways that you try to shove out of your consciousness, because there is no point thinking about it — that this sort of thing could happen to you. That no amount of vigilance, really, can shield our children completely from random acts of violence or fate. The ancient branch that falls at precisely the wrong time. The flu that should merely have sidelined but ends up killing. The tractor-trailer, out of control. To have a child is to know the certainty of joy tempered by the omnipresent possibility of loss.

When our first child was born 14 years ago, our friend Jim, who watches over all of us with the obsessive protectiveness of a border collie, gave us one of those books about how to keep your child safe from some amazing array of harms. I kept it for years, but couldn't — sorry, Jim — bear to read it. You can check that the car seat is correctly installed and install safety latches on the medicine cabinet, but at a certain point you simply have to recognize that life has risks, and not everything is within our control.

Which gets us to Balloon Boy as metaphor. The silvery balloon hurtles through the air. It bobs, sickeningly. A child, or so we think, is inside, unseen. There is nothing to do but watch, horrified, and hope for a soft landing.

This is the essence of parenting. You must send your child out into the world, even though you know she is going to get bruised. There will inevitably be the party invitation that doesn't come, the team that isn't made, the once-close friend who snubs. You can't stop this; in truth, you shouldn't if you could. In The Blessing of a Skinned Knee, psychologist Wendy Mogel describes the phenomenon of parents foolishly ''trying to inoculate their children against the pain of life.''

By treating children ''like we're cruise ship directors who must get them to their destination — adulthood — smoothly, without their feeling even the slightest bump or wave, we're depriving them,'' she writes. ''Those bumps are part of God's plan.''

OK, but did God have to deal with a high school freshman? Accepting the plan does not answer the harder question of what freedom to allow when. I have been experiencing this recently with our newly independent daughter. I welcome this independence, yet I fear it. Can she get a ride to the restaurant with the older girls on the soccer team? No. Can she go to the party at the house of a kid she doesn't know and he doesn't go to her school but he's a friend of a friend? Not unless she is willing to submit to the indignity of having me call the parents.

The balloon strains against its mooring. You give the ropes some slack. Someday, too soon, you will have to let it float free.
Marcus is a Washington Post columnist. She can be e-mailed at marcusr@washpost.com.

stlrtruck
10-22-2009, 10:12 AM
i often feel paranoid and strict, but my 6 year old girl goes to school half a block from her grandparents, but shes not allowed to walk home from school.

she is not allowed to ride her bike, scooter or big wheel all the way down our sidewalk unless someone is watching, just to the perimeter of our yard and maybe in front of the neighbors. most certainly not allowed to ride around the block.

i hate being so protective, because when i was 6 i was all over the place on my bike w/o supervision. i was never bussed to school and never had a ride, ever since kindergarten.

at 7 or 8 years old i was allowed to go trick or treating alone.

what a shame millions of adults have to live in fear of this type of shit happening.

the threat of terrorists has got nothing on the fear and precautions i take on a daily basis in regards to my baby.

its bad, and i hate being the "mean dad".

:iagree:

I've spent a few nights explaining to my precious 4 year old why she can't go riding without mommy or daddy, or why she can't be outside in the front yard alone.

I often cringe when I hear stories like this and it builds such an anger within just thinking, "WHAT IF, what if it was my daughter!"

stlrtruck
10-22-2009, 10:22 AM
This is the essence of parenting. You must send your child out into the world, even though you know she is going to get bruised. There will inevitably be the party invitation that doesn't come, the team that isn't made, the once-close friend who snubs. You can't stop this; in truth, you shouldn't if you could. In The Blessing of a Skinned Knee, psychologist Wendy Mogel describes the phenomenon of parents foolishly ''trying to inoculate their children against the pain of life.''

As much as I have done my best to not shelter my children from how the world behaves, I also do not feed them to the wolves. Yes it's important to allow children to 'experience' life but as parents it is our job at certain ages to protect them from the world for which they do not fully understand, until they get to a point that we must let go or hinder their growth. At the same time, I also, as a parent, desire not to see my child come home with skinned knees everyday, and I can do something about that (at least while they are still young).

By treating children ''like we're cruise ship directors who must get them to their destination — adulthood — smoothly, without their feeling even the slightest bump or wave, we're depriving them,'' she writes. ''Those bumps are part of God's plan.''

My oldest daughter was treated like this by her father and step-mother. For the last 6 years of her life they told the what, when, where, why, and how's of her life. While her mother and I offered opportunity after opportunity to experience life as it is. We would give her direction, guidance, and wisdom to the ways of the world but some of those warnings went unheeded and she got her skinned knees, much to my displeasure. But she must learn from her own choices. She recently made some choices that were not of our likings but we knew we'd have to let her go through with it (because she's way past the age of being coddled) and she's learning for herself how idiotic boys can be (really!), how free spending can leave you scrounging for grocery money or rent money, and that sometimes getting home from college is more difficult than just a phone call to mom/dad. Bumps she should have experienced before she went to college, were held away from her, and now she thinks she shouldn't have to experience them - me, I say, too bad you get all of them now.

The balloon strains against its mooring. You give the ropes some slack. Someday, too soon, you will have to let it float free.
Marcus is a Washington Post columnist. She can be e-mailed at marcusr@washpost.com.

As parents, our job is to guide and direct our children with our own morals and standards. We inject our belief system and pray that they make the good decisions. We let the rope out, we pull it in, we let it out, etc. The cycle continues until we get to the point that we have no more control and regardless if we pull on the ropes or give them slack, those ropes will eventually break.

beSteelmyheart
10-22-2009, 07:42 PM
Is the molestation problem as bad in other states or is it just getting so bad in Florida because of the dregs of society choosing to move here? Is this becoming some kind of horrible epidemic or has it been with us all along without such crazy media coverage?
Why were these kids walking home in an area infested with sexual predators?

tony hipchest
10-23-2009, 12:17 AM
I'm taking my first real attempts at parenting (my girlfriends kids) and I try to be rational about it...we live in a constant state of fear, which is HEAVILY fascilitated by the pop media. I truly believe that things were always like this we just know more about it now, and that the chances of soemthing truly awful happening to her kids are far too remote to really worry about.

I read this this morning and it's certainly timely and germane...
.

why do you say "we" are in a constant state of fear, yet when you talk about your first real attempts of parenting, you refer to them as "her kids" and that something awful happening is far too remote to really worry about.?

perhaps get a clue before you chime in with some bubble boy bullshit.

just cause you say "real" and "truly" twice, doesnt make your opinion any more factual.

just ask any "real" parent, as you try to be "rational" about it (as if those who actually raise kids arent).

:shake02:

MACH1
10-23-2009, 12:30 AM
I'm taking my first real attempts at parenting (my girlfriends kids) and I try to be rational about it...we live in a constant state of fear, which is HEAVILY fascilitated by the pop media. I truly believe that things were always like this we just know more about it now, and that the chances of soemthing truly awful happening to her kids are far too remote to really worry about.

Someday you'll have your own real kids to worry about, ya know after your done practicing on someone elses.

Like tony was eluding to, its no where near the way it was when we were kids. I wish I could let my kid go free roaming like I was able to when I was a kid. But in these times it ain't gonna happen.

Galax Steeler
10-23-2009, 05:01 AM
Someday you'll have your own real kids to worry about, ya know after your done practicing on someone elses.

Like tony was eluding to, its no where near the way it was when we were kids. I wish I could let my kid go free roaming like I was able to when I was a kid. But in these times it ain't gonna happen.

I remember when I was young I would take off on a summer day and stay gone all day at a friends house or playing in the woods. Mom and Dad had no fear and neither did I. You had nothing to worry about back then but today is different.

revefsreleets
10-23-2009, 10:36 AM
There is absolutely not one SHRED of evidence that things are any worse now then they were when we were kids. The ONLY difference I can see is it's easier to access negative information, and there is a pervasive culture of fear perpetrated by the media. In fact, the overwhelming evidence points towards crime reduction over the years.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-24-sex-crimes-cover_x.htm

I think it's telling that I'M being attacked for pointing out that we live in a culture of HYPER fear....I also can't see any reason why my length of parenting, or relation to the children I'm parenting, has any correlation to the FACT that children are probably safer now then they ever have been at any point in history...but parents level of fear is increasing disproportionately in spite of that. The safer the children are, the MORE paralyzed by unjustified fear parents are.

I simply choose NOT to live in irrational fear of things that are so unlikely to happen it borderlines on paranoia. The ACTUAL odds of your child being kidnapped by a stranger in the US are 1 in 350, 000....almost every year there are ONLY about 110-120 kidnappings by strangers, and the majority of those cases are quickly solved.

Let's put that into perspective:

Odds of dying in a Tornado 1 in 60,000
Snake bite, bee sting, etc, 1 in 100,000
Dog attack 1 in 147,000
Asteroid impact 1 in 200,000

But, yeah, attack ME because I'm not going to be too worried about something that for all intents and purposes, almost never occurs...the fact is, family members almost always represent the greatest risk for children. THAT is something to fear...

SteelMember
10-23-2009, 12:13 PM
awful.

Here is the latest story (http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/investigators-believe-landfill-body-168533.html) from a local newspaper here in GA.

and probably the most disheartening thing about this is when I did the search for "body found" on the papers site, there were 4 pages of stories linked....It only went back to the 21st of October. It's absolutely unbelievable! Whether it's a kidnapped child, an abandoned baby, premeditated murder or some random act of violence, there is way too much of this happening. There is seemingly NO value on a life anymore for too many people.

As for the times changing...Back in the day, people used to have fist fights. Now they have gun fights, or get stabbed in the back. It's Ridiculous. Yes, there were pedophiles and murders back then too, but I don't think it has anything to do with the media portraying it ant differently. It just seems there's more of it. More people? More unsatisfied lives? I don't know, but the mentality sure seems different.

Here's something we didn't have back then. For those who like "the numbers", this is very disturbing. I know there is web sites for things like this, but I am almost too afraid to look.

Quote form linked story.
Beseler wouldn't talk about what evidence police have recovered, or whether investigators believe the crime was committed by one or more people. He said police have questioned more than 70 registered sex offenders in the area, and that process was continuing. Florida Department of Law Enforcement records show 161 offenders live in a 5-mile radius of Somer's home.

MACH1
10-23-2009, 12:20 PM
There is absolutely not one SHRED of evidence that things are any worse now then they were when we were kids. The ONLY difference I can see is it's easier to access negative information, and there is a pervasive culture of fear perpetrated by the media. In fact, the overwhelming evidence points towards crime reduction over the years.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-24-sex-crimes-cover_x.htm

I think it's telling that I'M being attacked for pointing out that we live in a culture of HYPER fear....I also can't see any reason why my length of parenting, or relation to the children I'm parenting, has any correlation to the FACT that children are probably safer now then they ever have been at any point in history...but parents level of fear is increasing disproportionately in spite of that. The safer the children are, the MORE paralyzed by unjustified fear parents are.

I simply choose NOT to live in irrational fear of things that are so unlikely to happen it borderlines on paranoia. The ACTUAL odds of your child being kidnapped by a stranger in the US are 1 in 350, 000....almost every year there are ONLY about 110-120 kidnappings by strangers, and the majority of those cases are quickly solved.

Let's put that into perspective:

Odds of dying in a Tornado 1 in 60,000
Snake bite, bee sting, etc, 1 in 100,000
Dog attack 1 in 147,000
Asteroid impact 1 in 200,000

But, yeah, attack ME because I'm not going to be too worried about something that for all intents and purposes, almost never occurs...the fact is, family members almost always represent the greatest risk for children. THAT is something to fear...


I'm not attacking you. Just wait till you have your own flesh and blood kids, you'll be amazed at how much of a game changer that is. Your opinion will flip a whole 180*.

revefsreleets
10-23-2009, 02:15 PM
I'm not attacking you. Just wait till you have your own flesh and blood kids, you'll be amazed at how much of a game changer that is. Your opinion will flip a whole 180*.


Not too pleased at the assertion that I don't value these children I live with just because they are not my own. I'm also not sure what it means that "my opinion will flip 180". Does that mean that the odds of MY OWN children being attacked by strangers will be higher than that of my girlfriends? Because all I'm saying is that I refuse to live my life in fear of things that almost certainly will not happen to either me or my own.

I was a Poli/Sci Criminal Justice major...we had some really good instructors. One guy who was a local cop and went on to the FBI came back to teach after he retired. One of the points I remember him making was how different things were in the 60's and 70's and even the 80's...drunk drivers all over the roads, violence and garbage everywhere, and, yes, even shootings. He made a specific point of stating that, yes, even though there was still violent crime, it wasn't as bad as it "used to be"...people are, in general, a lot safer now than they used to be...


Concerning the idea that life is devalued more now than in the past, fact is, it's always been this way...we just get pumped up with fear everyday by the government and the press and the lawyers, fear that paralyzes us and clouds our judgment. There have always been child predators like Albert Fish (1870-1936) and John Wayne Gacy (42-94) and Andrei Chikalito (36-94). My dad told me about going to the movies as a kid and the cops would always be running old pervy men out of the theater on Saturday afternoons. This stuff has always gone on, it's just more "in your face" now.

Anyway, back to the original topic. The murder of this girl is horrific. I'm in no way trying to downplay that...I merely posted an op/ed piece that ran the same day that the girls body was found and thought it was interesting in light of some of the sentiment here...

stlrtruck
10-23-2009, 02:43 PM
I'm also not sure what it means that "my opinion will flip 180". Does that mean that the odds of MY OWN children being attacked by strangers will be higher than that of my girlfriends?

To be honest with you, the way that you mentioned you were "attempting" to raise "her kids" makes it sound like you are distant from them and that it would be easy for you to cut tail and run if the situation required it to be that way. I'm not saying you would do that but that's how it comes across. Case in point, I don't call my wife's children "her kids", I call them mine.

And it's not that having your own biological child changes the reality of life outside your house, I truly believe it changes the reality of your thinking.

And while you may not be able to find one shred of evidence that we're any safer years ago as opposed to today, I don't think you'll find any either. But here's what I know about the differences in my youth and that of my children (ages 19, 14, and 4). I was able to go outside all day without the threat of being abducted by anyone. Where I grew up neighbors talked to each other and watched out for their children as much as their own. Children could be outside all day and be home in time for dinner without parents worrying that some sick-o has come by and picked them up and carried them off. Today, I do not trust that my oldest daughter could walk around the block without having some pervert or sick-o either stop and cat-call her or make attempts to persuade her to get in the car or worse yet force her in the car. I do not trust that my son, even at 14, could leave the house all day, make his way around to his friend's house without the possiblity of being snatched. I don't trust the world when my 4 year old wants to go outside and play, unless I'm there with her.

No I don't fear mongor my children but the reality of the world in which I live is that there are more perverts and sick-o's that want to take my children from me and they do live in close proximity, at least close enough that I make sure I have knowledge of where my children are going, who they are with, and what routes they are getting there so that I can take the same route should the need arise.

As was said, there is something different when they are your own children. Maybe thinking about your g/f's kids as your own might start to change how you think about the different situations. Maybe?

revefsreleets
10-23-2009, 02:48 PM
I already posted a couple sources of evidence that we ARE safer...crime rates are down. That's an unequivocal fact.

You are also ignoring what my main thrust is...we are safer now than ever, BUT we have been inundated with the message that we AREN'T to the point we've started to believe things that are actually contrary to the actual reality around us.

I'm actually sorry I ever mentioned anything at this point...

stlrtruck
10-23-2009, 02:55 PM
I already posted a couple sources of evidence that we ARE safer...crime rates are down. That's an unequivocal fact.

You are also ignoring what my main thrust is...we are safer now than ever, BUT we have been inundated with the message that we AREN'T to the point we've started to believe things that are actually contrary to the actual reality around us.

I'm actually sorry I ever mentioned anything at this point...

There are also sources that say we're doing better with BHO at the helm of this country.

NJarhead
10-23-2009, 02:58 PM
This thread seems to have gotten OT.
Does anyone know if the body of the little girl found was that of the missing Somer's girl?

SteelMember
10-23-2009, 03:05 PM
I refuse to live my life in fear of things that almost certainly will not happen to either me or my own.

That's some insurance policy you must have. Because your confidence and trust in such a bold statement is surprising to me. Thinking your not a target, probably makes you a "prime" target.
How about "the secret to a good offense is a good defense". Or at the very least "be Prepared".

It must be nice to put the blinders on and blame the media for "the problems".



I was a Poli/Sci Criminal Justice major...we had some really good instructors. One guy who was a local cop and went on to the FBI came back to teach after he retired. One of the points I remember him making was how different things were in the 60's and 70's and even the 80's...drunk drivers all over the roads, violence and garbage everywhere, and, yes, even shootings. He made a specific point of stating that, yes, even though there was still violent crime, it wasn't as bad as it "used to be"...people are, in general, a lot safer now than they used to be...

I don't buy this. Just because a law enforcement officer says "you safer now"? Just because there are more officers and more laws doesn't affect you as directly as you may think. There is still a window of opportunity for people to conceive ideas to perpetrate wrong. Which leads me to your last statement.


Concerning the idea that life is devalued more now than in the past, fact is, it's always been this way...we just get pumped up with fear everyday by the government and the press and the lawyers, fear that paralyzes us and clouds our judgment. There have always been child predators like Albert Fish (1870-1936) and John Wayne Gacy (42-94) and Andrei Chikalito (36-94). My dad told me about going to the movies as a kid and the cops would always be running old pervy men out of the theater on Saturday afternoons. This stuff has always gone on, it's just more "in your face" now.

If the total population averaged to have a certain number of "bad apples" in the barrel in a specific year, wouldn't the average growth of population tend to lead to MORE bad apples? Even if the ratio remained constant, the total number grows. I guess those bad folks just live in another neighborhood and keep to themselves.

I can see you getting upset that others may think you are "learning" with someone elses kids, but I think it was you that put it in those terms. Others were just responding to what you, yourself said.

SteelMember
10-23-2009, 03:08 PM
This thread seems to have gotten OT.
Does anyone know if the body of the little girl found was that of the missing Somer's girl?

I gave a link in my other post. Guess it was kinda hidden. Here's a quote...

Clay County Sheriff Rick Beseler said the tentative identification was based on clothing and on a birthmark that matched the girl's.

revefsreleets
10-23-2009, 03:15 PM
There are also sources that say we're doing better with BHO at the helm of this country.


I'm not sure how one could FAKE violent crime statistics dropping over 30 years.

Like i said, believe what you want...I'm sorry I ever posted in this thread...

Vincent
10-23-2009, 03:25 PM
i am also very liberal with her. i let her hold tarantulas, and have a pet snake.

See, that right there, is why I will not let my kids hang around with liberals. :couch:

There is absolutely not one SHRED of evidence that things are any worse now then they were when we were kids. The ONLY difference I can see is it's easier to access negative information, and there is a pervasive culture of fear perpetrated by the media. In fact, the overwhelming evidence points towards crime reduction over the years. to fear...

Au contraire. If anything, abductions are underreported. 800,000 (not all actual abductions) per annum in the US.

http://www.examiner.com/x-6369-Baltimore-Crime-Examiner~y2009m8d19-Child-abduction-statistics

There are also sources that say we're doing better with bho at the helm of this country.

:coffee: :noidea:

stlrtruck
10-23-2009, 03:33 PM
I'm not sure how one could FAKE violent crime statistics dropping over 30 years.

Like i said, believe what you want...I'm sorry I ever posted in this thread...

I'm not saying they're fake, I'm just stating that there are sources contrary to everyone's own belief. Reality for one may not be the reality for another, especially if past events dictate a different mindset.

revefsreleets
10-23-2009, 03:42 PM
There are 800,000 MISSING children every year...MOST of those are runaways, and the rest of those are familial kidnappings...the number of strangers kidnapping kids is consistently about 110-120 a year.

Fear rules, I guess, to the point of ignoring the actual facts...

SteelMember
10-23-2009, 04:02 PM
There are 800,000 MISSING children every year...MOST of those are runaways, and the rest of those are familial kidnappings...the number of strangers kidnapping kids is consistently about 110-120 a year.

Fear rules, I guess, to the point of ignoring the actual facts...

What you say is partly the truth.

The U.S. Department of Justice reports

797,500 children (younger than 18) were reported missing in a one-year period of time studied resulting in an average of 2,185 children being reported missing each day.
203,900 children were the victims of family abductions.
58,200 children were the victims of non-family abductions.
115 children were the victims of “stereotypical” kidnapping. (These crimes involve someone the child does not know or someone of slight acquaintance, who holds the child overnight, transports the child 50 miles or more, kills the child, demands ransom, or intends to keep the child permanently.)

So how do those 58,200 children fit into "non-stereotypical" abductions?

Nonfamily Abduction
A nonfamily abduction occurs when a nonfamily perpetrator
takes a child by the use of physical force or threat of bodily
harm or detains a child for at least 1 hour in an isolated place
by the use of physical force or threat of bodily harm without
lawful authority or parental permission; or when a child who
is younger than 15 years old or is mentally incompetent, without
lawful authority or parental permission, is taken or detained
by or voluntarily accompanies a nonfamily perpetrator
who conceals the child’s whereabouts, demands ransom, or
expresses the intention to keep the child permanently.

Stereotypical Kidnapping
A stereotypical kidnapping occurs when a stranger or slight
acquaintance perpetrates a nonfamily abduction in which the
child is detained overnight, transported at least 50 miles, held
for ransom, abducted with intent to keep the child permanently,
or killed.

Seem like a lot of "qualifiers" to catagorize those 115 kids. I guess if you don't want a "ransom" they're not really kidnapped. Just abducted. Typical.

http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_overview.pdf

MACH1
10-23-2009, 04:10 PM
There are 800,000 MISSING children every year...MOST of those are runaways, and the rest of those are familial kidnappings...the number of strangers kidnapping kids is consistently about 110-120 a year.

Fear rules, I guess, to the point of ignoring the actual facts...

You can throw out all the stats, numbers, degrees or schooling you want. Last time I checked there wasn't a degree for being a good parent, I'm in no way saying that your not.

But until you are at the point of missing,wondering, thinking, worrying ect. about 'her kids' well being on a daily basis you have no freakin clue as to what it's like being a parent.

So according to your stats it's safe for you to leave the keys in your running car with the windows down and go shopping and not worry about someone taking your car. It's safe for you to leave your front door wide open while your gone and nobody will pilfer your house.
After all it's safer now than it has ever been. Why leave the front door open for something bad to happen to your kids?

Vincent
10-23-2009, 04:16 PM
kidnapping kids is consistently about 110-120 a year.

Only 110-120. Well that's certainly a relief. On an ongoing basis that has Fish's, Gacy's, and Chikalito's "bodies of work" trumped by orders of magnitude.

The angst and discussion here is about but one.

stlrtruck
10-23-2009, 04:21 PM
There are 800,000 MISSING children every year...MOST of those are runaways, and the rest of those are familial kidnappings...the number of strangers kidnapping kids is consistently about 110-120 a year.

Fear rules, I guess, to the point of ignoring the actual facts...

So I guess a familial kidnapping makes it less stressful and worrisome for the parents and family members involved? That's about one of the most assinine thoughts I've heard this year. But hey what ever helps you sleep at night.

It's not fear that rules, it's the desire to see our children be more than just some statistic that someone rattles off in a thread to try and prove a point that the world is "safer" based on those statistics. Go ask anyone of those 800,000 families where someone has been kidnapped and ask the if they're safer. Ask anyone associated with those families if they feel safer. Tell me what FACTS you come up with then.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that most parents don't feel the world is safer. But I guess that's difference between someone who is a parent and someone who is practicing to be one!

tony hipchest
10-24-2009, 12:29 AM
You are also ignoring what my main thrust is...we are safer now than ever, BUT we have been inundated with the message that we AREN'T to the point we've started to believe things that are actually contrary to the actual reality around us.



There are 800,000 MISSING children every year...MOST of those are runaways, and the rest of those are familial kidnappings...the number of strangers kidnapping kids is consistently about 110-120 a year.

Fear rules, I guess, to the point of ignoring the actual facts...

wow... just wow.

i guess the blame pop media was to be expected, but it just goes to show your complete lack of understanding of reality and actual facts.

FACT is, the media could report 10, 100, or thousands of stories like this a year, but it ONLY takes 1 to stike fear into the heart of a parent. (if you are lucky enough, you may come to realize this one day).

not to be snarky, but let me put this into terms you may be able to actually relate with.

i will assume you still have your jack russell terrier. for arguments sake, we will assume it is a pure breed and you paid a pretty penny for it.

did you get it, its rabies shots? how bout a collar with a nametag and phone number? do you keep it inside, in a fenced yard, or on a leash?

if the answer is "no" then it explains alot of your stance.

if the answer is "yes" then ask yourself why you do these things. :noidea:

from what i found, rabies is detected in about 7000-8000 animals a year and 90% of those are wild. what are the chances of your dog ever catching rabies? slim to none, yet people take precautions all the time. is this because of the media?

seriously... has anyone really heard of a rabid dog since 'old yeller' in the 60's?

if your dog escapes, and is found, odds are the finder will read the tag and call you, or the pound that picks it up will call you. or if you live near a busy street, odds say the dog may get hit by a car. but there are thousands of dogs that roam the streets, and really, how many dead dogs do you see lying on the road? not too many, but lots of people who find a nice $500 little doggie roaming around are inclined to keep it.

odds are, if your dog escapes and runs off, it will find their way back home and return safely.

so i ask you this... if your JRT were to escape (assuming you have taken the preventative measures of shots, a collar, a fence, a leash) would you play the odds that your dog would return? or would you go out and look for it?

in the art of debate (and to use a chess analogy) this is what we would call "check".


either you have taken all these precautions and would still go out and search for your dog (which shows you buy into all the "fear" and pop "media hype"), or you would just sit your ass at home, playing the odds and "rational" statistics, and assume your pet would return home safely (which would clearly show you are nowhere near qualified to be a parent or even be responsible for a childs life).

its your move but i doubt you will honestly answer the questions.

= "checkmate".

revefsreleets
10-24-2009, 09:38 AM
I've seen some stupid analogies from you but that....?

I WILL say this much in a very short response. Dogs are over medicated, inoculated yearly, and that, too, is based on fear. My dog gets shots every few years, and even that is a concession for me because he is largely a house dog. He ran off once, and I stood on the front porch and yelled for him and he came home.

But this is irrelevant. Only an IDIOT would not take some common sense approaches to protecting the people they love. I NEVER SUGGESTED OTHERWISE!!!!!!!!!!!!

What I'm saying is that people have become paralyzed with fear to the point of total isolation and overprotective "helicopter parenting"based on an irrational fear of things that only occur to a teeny tiny percentage of people. People have an irrational fear of flying, which is MUCH safer than driving, and THAT is much more in the vein of what I'm discussing than any of these other crazy suggestions I'm hearing...

Did I ever say that I just let the kids run willy-nilly? No. What I'm stating is that people let fear dominate their lives and that's no way to live.

I'm taking a break from this place for awhile...I enjoy good debate, but something has soured here for me recently, and there's a new level of intolerance I find to be based much more on ignorance than any real practical or intellectual basis. I want to leave with an excerpt from Crichton's "State of Fear" because it's originally what got me thinking in these terms (that and a reading of "Freakonomics, which debunks most of these urban myths and other irrational fears)...

pensacolasteelers
10-24-2009, 09:42 AM
I don't give a $@%^& about stats and crap like that. It's my worst nightmare and thank God I haven't had to experience it. I hope they catch the PHUCK or PHUCKS that did this and make them pay. In this case, if there was a way to find out FOR SURE (like through DNA) who did this then I would even be okay with vigilante justice! I'd even volunteer to carry it out.

revefsreleets
10-24-2009, 09:42 AM
From "State of Fear"...


“If you study the media, as my graduate students and I do, seeking to find shifts in normative conceptualization, you discover something extremely interesting. We looked at transcripts of news programs of the major networks—NBC, ABC, CBS. We also looked at stories in the newspapers of New York, Washington, Miami, Los Angeles, and Seattle. We counted the frequency of certain concepts and terms used by the media. The results were very striking.” He paused.

“What did you find?” Evans said, taking his cue.

“There was a major shift in the fall of 1989. Before that time, the media did not make excessive use of terms such as crisis, catastrophe, cat­aclysm, plague, or disaster For example, during the 1 980s, the word crisis appeared in news reports about as often as the word budget. In addition, prior to 1989, adjectives such as dire, unprecedented, dreaded were not common in television reports or newspaper headlines. But then it all changed.”

“In what way?”

“These terms started to become more and more common. The word catastrophe was used five times more often in 1995 than it was in 1985. Its use doubled again by the year 2000. And the stories changed, too. There was a heightened emphasis on fear, worry, danger, uncertainty, panic.”

“Ah. A good question. Critical question. In most respects 1989 seemed like a normal year: a Soviet sub sank in Norway; Tiananmen Square in China; the Exxon Valdez; Salmon Rushdie sentenced to death; Jane Fonda, Mike Tyson, and Bruce Springsteen all got divorced; the Episcopal Church hired a female bishop; Poland allowed striking unions; Voyager went to Neptune; a San Francisco earthquake flattened high­ways; and Russia, the US, France, and England all conducted nuclear tests. A year like any other. But in fact the rise in the use of the term cri­sis can be located with some precision in the autumn of 1989. And it seemed suspicious that it should coincide so closely with the fall of the Berlin Wall. Which happened on November ninth of that year.”

But it wasn’t. The Berlin Wall marks the collapse of the Soviet empire.

And the end of the Cold War that had lasted for half a century in the

West.”

“I am leading to the notion of social control, Peter. To the require­ment of every sovereign state to exert control over the behavior of its cit­izens, to keep them orderly and reasonably docile. To keep them driving on the right side of the road—or the left, as the case may be. To keep them paying taxes. And of course we know that social control is best managed through fear.”



“Fear,” Evans said.

“Exactly. For fifty years, Western nations had maintained their citi­zens in a state of perpetual fear. Fear of the other side. Fear of nuclear war. The Communist menace. The Iron Curtain. The Evil Empire. And within the Communist countries, the same in reverse. Fear of us. Then, suddenly, in the fall of 1989, it was all finished. Gone, vanished. Over The fall of the Berlin Wall created a vacuum of fear. Nature abhors a vacuum. Something had to fill it.”

Evans frowned. “You’re saying that environmental crises took the place of the Cold War?”

“That is what the evidence shows. Of course, now we have radical fundamentalism and post—9/l 1 terrorism to make us afraid, and those are certainly real reasons for fear, but that is not my point. My point is, there is always a cause for fear. The cause may change over time, but the fear is always with us. Before terrorism we feared the toxic environment. Before that we had the Communist menace. The point is, although the specific cause of our fear may change, we are never without the fear itself. Fear pervades society in all its aspects. Perpetually.”

“Has it ever occurred to you how astonishing the culture of Western society really is? Industrialized nations provide their citizens with unprecedented safety, health, and comfort. Average life spans increased fifty percent in the last century. Yet modern people live in abject fear. They are afraid of strangers, of disease, of crime, of the environment. They are afraid of the homes they live in, the food they eat, the technol­ogy that surrounds them. They are in a particular panic over things they can’t even see—germs, chemicals, additives, pollutants. They are timid, nervous, fretful, and depressed. And even more amazingly, they are con­vinced that the environment of the entire planet is being destroyed around them. Remarkable! Like the belief in witchcraft, it’s an extraor­dinary delusion—a global fantasy worthy of the Middle Ages. Everything is going to hell, and we must all live in fear. Amazing.

“How has this world view been instilled in everybody? Because although we imagine we live in different nations—France, Germany, Japan, the US—in fact, we inhabit exactly the same state, the State of Fear. How has that been accomplished?”

“Well, I shall tell you how,” he said. “In the old days—before your time, Peter—citizens of the West believed their nation-states were dominated by something called the military-industrial complex. Eisenhower warned Americans against it in the 1960s, and after two world wars Europeans knew very well what it meant in their own coun­tries. But the military-industrial complex is no longer the primary driver of society. In reality, for the last fifteen years we have been under the control of an entirely new complex, far more powerful and far more pervasive. I call it the politico-legal-media complex. The PLM. And it is dedicated to promoting fear in the population—under the guise of promoting safety.”

“Safety is important.”

“Please. Western nations are fabulously safe. Yet people do not feel they are, because of the PLM. And the PLM is powerful and stable, pre­cisely because it unites so many institutions of society. Politicians need fears to control the population. Lawyers need dangers to litigate, and make money. The media need scare stories to capture an audience. Together, these three estates are so compelling that they can go about their business even if the scare is totally groundless. If it has no basis in fact at all. For instance, consider silicon breast implants.”

Evans sighed, shaking his head. “Breast implants?”

“Yes. You will recall that breast implants were claimed to cause cancer and autoimmune diseases. Despite statistical evidence that this was not true, we saw high-profile news stories, high-profile lawsuits, high-profile political hearings. The manufacturer, Dow Corning, was hounded out of the business after paying $3.2 billion, and juries awarded huge cash payments to plaintiffs and their lawyers.

“Four years later, definitive epidemiological studies showed beyond a doubt that breast implants did not cause disease. But by then the cri­sis had already served its purpose, and the PLM had moved on, a rav­enous machine seeking new fears, new terrors. I’m telling you, this is the way modern society works—by the constant creation of fear. And there is no countervailing force. There is no system of checks and balances, no restraint on the perpetual promotion of fear after fear after fear. . . .“

“Because we have freedom of speech, freedom of the press.”

“That is the classic PLM answer. That’s how they stay in business,” Hoffman said. “But think. If it is not all right to falsely shout ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theater, why is it all right to shout ‘Cancer!’ in the pages of The New Yorker? When that statement is not true? We’ve spent more than twenty-five billion dollars to clear up the phony power-line cancer claim.* ‘So what?’ you say. I can see it in your face. You’re thinking, we’re rich, we can afford it. It’s only twenty-five billion dollars. But the fact is that twenty-five billion dollars is more than the total GDP of the poor­est fifty nations of the world combined. Half the world’s population lives on two dollars a day. So that twenty-five billion would be enough to sup­port thirty-four million people for a year. Or we could have helped all the people dying of AIDS in Africa. Instead, we piss it away on a fantasy published by a magazine whose readers take it very seriously. Trust it. It is a stupendous waste of money. In another world, it would be a criminal waste. One could easily imagine another Nuremberg trial—this time for the relentless squandering of Western wealth on trivialities—and com­plete with pictures of the dead babies in Africa and Asia that result.”


“It is the next step in the development of nation-states. Indeed it is already happening. You must see the irony. After all, twenty-five billion dollars and ten years later the same rich elitists who were terrified of power-line cancer are buying magnets to strap to their ankles or put on their mattresses—imported Japanese magnets are the best, the most expensive—in order to enjoy the healthful effects of magnetic fields. The same magnetic fields—only now they can’t get enough of them!”

“Professor,” Evans said, “I have to go.”

“Why don’t these people just lie back against a TV screen? Snuggle up to a kitchen appliance? All the things that terrified them before.”

“We’ll talk later,” Evans said, pulling his arm away.

“They even sell magnets in the health magazines! Healthy living through magnetic fields! Insanity! No one remembers even a few years ago! George Orwell. No memory!”

revefsreleets
10-24-2009, 09:47 AM
Finally, I DO agree with the last sentiment...the animal who did this needs to be skinned alive publicly and left to die slowly in the hot sun.

NJarhead
10-24-2009, 11:20 AM
I gave a link in my other post. Guess it was kinda hidden. Here's a quote...

Thanks man. Sorry I missed it. Thought this thread was about a missing girl. My heart goes out to her family.

HometownGal
10-24-2009, 08:04 PM
This saddens me soooo much. :crying01: What a beautiful little girl and I hope the rancid bastard who did this to her is apprehended and executed on the spot. No jail, no trial - just KILL the SOB. :mad:

As a grandparent, I am religiously protective of my grandsons. My 9 year old grandson is extremely friendly and I've tried to get him to see that while that is OK - there are a LOT of weirdos and perverts out there and he needs to be more cautious and more aware of what is going on around him when he is walking home from school or just out and about with his friends. In today's psycho world, a parent can NEVER be too careful or overprotective imho.

God Bless this little angel and my heart goes out to her parents and brother. :tombstone:

steelwalls
10-24-2009, 09:22 PM
As kids we used to run wild durring the summers, heck we'ed be gone all day our parents had no idea where we were, these days (perhaps it is the fear the media puts in us) but I would never let my child do that.

As soon as my child is old enough to use a phone they[re getting a cell phone. I'll do my best to protect them but not to over isolate them.

To this story.......I hope they nail the bastard that done this nads to the wall with a rusty, dull 16 penny nail.. Truth is. they probably would in prison, at least that's one good thing that may come out of it.

beSteelmyheart
10-25-2009, 06:45 PM
While you guys are in stats mode, can someone dig up some stats as to how many "early release" sexual predators re-offend? Can someone dig up some numbers on "rehabilitated" child molesters? (good luck on that one) How about stats on early release child molesters that are allowed back into our society to not only rape again, but to take the life of an innocent human being????

TroysBadDawg
10-26-2009, 12:00 AM
My oldest will be 17 this Friday and I am still on his case to let us know where he is and what time he is to be home. IF he leaves one friends house to go to another he has to call when leaving and when he again arrives or he loses the car keys, real simple, our house, our cars, our rules. He will try to discuss (argue) but has to live by it. VERIZON has this great extra we have on all the children's phones, we can track them using the GPS built into the phone. Better not tell us one thing and be another.

The youngest just got 4 hours of volunteer work for Skate boarding in the street by the Juvenile Magistrate, We had him do 9 hours. I think he learned a lesson.

A little off topic, Yes the Browns suck this year, so does Mangini,.

stlrtruck
10-26-2009, 01:32 PM
From "State of Fear"...

“If you study the media, as my graduate students and I do, seeking to find shifts in normative conceptualization, you discover something extremely interesting. We looked at transcripts of news programs of the major networks—NBC, ABC, CBS. We also looked at stories in the newspapers of New York, Washington, Miami, Los Angeles, and Seattle. We counted the frequency of certain concepts and terms used by the media. The results were very striking.” He paused.

Study the media? That's about as assinine as say, "Studying NFL Owners" I don't know many people that changed their lifestyles or their parenting techniques based on Media outlets. Here's a clue for the professor and his grad students, get your arse off the internet and out of the meeting rooms and study people.

I don't tell my youngest that she can't go outside because she's too little, or because the media outlets just reported another abducted child. I tell my daughter she can't outside alone because I've seen the current # of registered sex offenders that live with in close proximity. How's that for studying something? I make sure that when my daughter is outside that she's with a responsible adult, usually me!

Even if the media didn't change their concepts and terms, I'm sure you would still find the majority of parents who wouldn't allow their children to run around all free nilly. No you'd still find parents who still believe that this world is not 'safer' based on their own intellect, their own personal histories, and their own position in the world.

It seems Refs that you want to throw out stats and studies but just like the 'geniuses' doing the work, they tend to throw out personal experience when doing their research.


And then you get all pissy when others don't agree with what you think is proof positive that solidifies your position. And yes it's very easy to read your snide comments throughout some of your posts - comments you make because you don't agree with the foundations of what current parents on this board find to be logical and relevant for their families. Yes Ref, it is possible that your logic, although sound for you, will not be sound for someone else.

Have fun on your little sebatical. :thumbsup: :wave:

SteelCityMom
10-26-2009, 07:55 PM
Ok, as a loving parent, stories like this of course make me sad and strike fear into my heart for my daughter...but I'm not going to project that fear onto my child and restrict them from being able to be an independent child. My daughter will soon be 8, and is allowed to go to her friends house after school and wait for the bus w/o mommy holding her hand the whole time. Of course I want to know where she is, but I want her to have freedom too.

I wasn't going to post here, b/c I know it's a touchy subject...but I do agree with you Rev, the media has blown a lot of this out of proportion. Here are a couple video clips from Penn and Tellers show about Stranger Danger that sum up my feelings pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEsORPQO840

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfrSoiaLixg

In case you didn't catch that statistic she threw out there...95% of child abductions are from people the child are related to or know very well.

http://www.sho.com/site/video/brightcove/series/title.do?bcpid=1305032885&bclid=1655771618&bctid=1703403233



You make very valid points Rev and I'm sure you'll feel the same way when you have your own children (not to say that you don't care about your girlfriends children very deeply). It's just a very touchy subject and a lot of people don't want to see the rational side of it.

Preacher
10-27-2009, 01:23 AM
Study the media? That's about as assinine as say, "Studying NFL Owners" I don't know many people that changed their lifestyles or their parenting techniques based on Media outlets. Here's a clue for the professor and his grad students, get your arse off the internet and out of the meeting rooms and study people.

I don't tell my youngest that she can't go outside because she's too little, or because the media outlets just reported another abducted child. I tell my daughter she can't outside alone because I've seen the current # of registered sex offenders that live with in close proximity. How's that for studying something? I make sure that when my daughter is outside that she's with a responsible adult, usually me!

Even if the media didn't change their concepts and terms, I'm sure you would still find the majority of parents who wouldn't allow their children to run around all free nilly. No you'd still find parents who still believe that this world is not 'safer' based on their own intellect, their own personal histories, and their own position in the world.

It seems Refs that you want to throw out stats and studies but just like the 'geniuses' doing the work, they tend to throw out personal experience when doing their research.


And then you get all pissy when others don't agree with what you think is proof positive that solidifies your position. And yes it's very easy to read your snide comments throughout some of your posts - comments you make because you don't agree with the foundations of what current parents on this board find to be logical and relevant for their families. Yes Ref, it is possible that your logic, although sound for you, will not be sound for someone else.

Have fun on your little sebatical. :thumbsup: :wave:

To be fair,

Rev was quoting a statement from a fictional book. Not because of the supposed study that was made, but because the fictional narration said what rev's was saying in a different way.

agree or disagree... just realize that he was purposely quoting fiction to better vocalize his own thoughts.

stlrtruck
10-27-2009, 08:33 AM
To be fair,

Rev was quoting a statement from a fictional book. Not because of the supposed study that was made, but because the fictional narration said what rev's was saying in a different way.

agree or disagree... just realize that he was purposely quoting fiction to better vocalize his own thoughts.

Using fiction to prove his points goes against his own logic (recognizing past quotes he's used when others use different sources to attempt to prove a point), so imo it makes he's point even less valid (but that's just my opinion).

So I'll just have to agree to disagree.

SteelCityMom
10-27-2009, 11:11 AM
To be fair,

Rev was quoting a statement from a fictional book. Not because of the supposed study that was made, but because the fictional narration said what rev's was saying in a different way.

agree or disagree... just realize that he was purposely quoting fiction to better vocalize his own thoughts.

Yes Crichtons State of Fear is a fictional book, but he also uses many graphs and footnotes, two appendices, and a twenty page bibliography, all either contributing to the book's scientific authority, or giving the impression that such authority exists, depending upon one's perspective. It is a very interesting read about how fear has been and can be used as a weapon and how media fueled and terroristic fear can drive our lives.

He didn't just sit down one day and decide to write a fictional book about this, he actually did a lot of research (as he usually does before he writes any kind of novel, fiction or non-fiction) to support his views. And while the book is specifically about global warming, a lot of the viewpoints in it can be applied to many other areas of human nature in this day and age.

It's a very good read, and whether you agree with it or not, don't write it off just because the base story is a work of fiction. Crichton is a very, very intelligent person and writer and his viewpoints and theories deserve a lot of serious consideration.

tony hipchest
10-28-2009, 12:57 AM
the only problem here is that revs has declared every normal parent here irrational based on nothing more than his own flawed opinion, a college professor, and a fictional book.

a rational parent thinks twice before sending their child on a daily mile long walk home from school in a neighborhood with 160 (or whatever) sexual offenders (which is why i think so many parents would find this single news story so disturbing).

according to revs simpleton logic, any parent who wastes their time to lock up their pistol or rifle is irrational and "media fear driven".

after all there are millions of guns in this country and only a few hundered kids kill themselves or another kid each year, right?

why worry? :doh:

i wont even wait for another idiodic response that this is a dumb analogy. the entire stance he has posted in this thread is totally ignorant. :shake02:



But this is irrelevant. Only an IDIOT would not take some common sense approaches to protecting the people they love. I NEVER SUGGESTED OTHERWISE!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

actually, you did. :wave:

SteelCityMom
10-28-2009, 01:49 AM
the only problem here is that revs has declared every normal parent here irrational based on nothing more than his own flawed opinion, a college professor, and a fictional book.

a rational parent thinks twice before sending their child on a daily mile long walk home from school in a neighborhood with 160 (or whatever) sexual offenders (which is why i think so many parents would find this single news story so disturbing).

according to revs simpleton logic, any parent who wastes their time to lock up their pistol or rifle is irrational and "media fear driven".

after all there are millions of guns in this country and only a few hundered kids kill themselves or another kid each year, right?

why worry? :doh:

i wont even wait for another idiodic response that this is a dumb analogy. the entire stance he has posted in this thread is totally ignorant. :shake02::

It's not ignorant, it's just an unpopular stance in this day and age. I can't speak for him, only as someone who agrees with his points, but I don't think any of this debate was meant to say that wanting to keep your kids safe is a crazy idea. And yes, if you live in a neighborhood with hundreds of known sexual offenders, you certainly do want to take extra precaution.

The gun analogy isn't stupid either IMO, but if you own guns just locking your guns up isn't going to solve the problem, you have to teach your kids how to handle them properly at a young age...because even though they may be locked up, and even though you may take every precaution you can think of, there are still ways your kid can get into things.

Also, there no reason for anybody to be getting so upset and start namecalling over a legitimate debate. There are things to be considered and learned on both sides of the argument. This is a very fine line debate, but there are valid arguments on both sides if you're willing to look into them.

I think his main point really was that some (not all) parents go a little overboard with keeping their kids under close watch, and don't let them grow up with a certain sense of independence and trust. I agree with him that this has happened largely because of how much the media has grown and how much more we hear about things that aren't necessarily occurring in our local communities. To me this is why that even though child abductions have gone down since previous generations, people are more and more paranoid about it.

Just some food for thought. Nothing to get hyper worked up over.

Steel_12
10-28-2009, 04:14 PM
If they find the person who did this...it should be a Samuel L. Jackson moment from "A time to kill". This is a sad story...I would be banned from the courthouse because any chance I got, I would take this persons life.

steelwalls
10-28-2009, 08:12 PM
If they find the person who did this...it should be a Samuel L. Jackson moment from "A time to kill". This is a sad story...I would be banned from the courthouse because any chance I got, I would take this persons life.


I agree but even that is not harh enough for me.