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Hammer67
11-17-2009, 07:51 AM
Few thoughts from a resident IT guy...first a bit of background. As a 20+ year computing vet and now an industry guy (manage data center engineers at a major banking data center), I have seen MS-DOS evolve. I went through the various Windows flavors (3.1 being the first I owned), from 95, to 98, to 98 Second Edition, to ME, to XP, to Vista and now Windows 7 (why they change the naming scheme so much, I don't know). I also play around with various Linux flavors as well.

My Rig:


Custom built
Asus P5B-E motherboard w/965 Intel chipset
E8500 Intel Core2Duo processor
4gb DDR2 Ram
1 terabyte RAID 1 disk array
ATI HD4890 graphics card
X-Fi Sound Blaster
Wireless -N (linksys)

I am one of those people who never really found an issue with Vista. I know Apple has their cute "I'm a Mac" commercials but they are just flat our misleading marketing if you know anything about OS's. They are geared to the unknowing masses. Vista was much more stable on release then many of the previous versions of Windows. Windows ME comes to mind. As of SP2, Vista was a well oiled machine running quite well for me. But, my curious mind led me to buying a cheap upgrade disk to Windows 7 x64. 64 bit is the way to go these days, for sure.

Some thoughts:
PROS


Not a radical departure from Vista's interface. It's easy to find everything
snap windows are fantastic, especially with a widescreen monitor
the new taskbar is great. It finally removes the cluttered open window bars and actually lets you rearrange the icons!
wireless networking for dummies...may help some novices
Most Vista drivers work with 7
snappier load times

CONS


It's a new OS and does have some unstable moments. In my case, a certain game crashed constantly and actually caused the first BSOD (blue screen of death) I have seen on my PC since Windows ME. Same game with same hardware ran great under Vista.
Really not much of an upgrade over Vista. XP users may finally be enticed to upgrade and should gain the most. Think of it like buying a car. Let's say you bought the 2007 Ford Focus, and then traded it in for the 2008 only to find that they just added a few colors and a new floor mat to that year's model...
Microsoft makes it expensive and difficult to upgrade (activation limits, etc.)

So, my initial thoughts are that like any new OS, you should wait a number of months so hardware drivers can mature and Microsoft can iron out the kinks. XP users will benefit the most from the upgrade as XP is starting to look dated. Vista users don't have to fret much. In fact, if you bought Vista, you may be disappointed if you plop down money on 7.

MACH1
11-17-2009, 08:34 AM
I got in on the pre-sale for $50 for upgrade disk, ultimate 64bit. So far I like it, haven't had any driver issues yet.

Best thing is you can do a clean install with the upgrade disk. :sofunny:

43Hitman
11-17-2009, 08:44 AM
I had Vista Ultimate x64 and it was horrible I always had trouble with drivers and system crashes. So when Windows 7 came out I immediately bought it, and I am glad I did. I haven't had a problem since and all of the stuff that didn't work with Vista now works. There is only one driver that is currently unavailable until Jan. and that is a driver for my wireless printer. No big deal really, I just have to use it wired. I bought the Home Premium x64 instead of the Ultimate this time, but it is by far the best OS I have used.

43Hitman
11-17-2009, 08:47 AM
I got in on the pre-sale for $50 for upgrade disk, ultimate 64bit. So far I like it, haven't had any driver issues yet.

Best thing is you can do a clean install with the upgrade disk. :sofunny:

Yeah that is awesome. I had to do a clean install, for some reason it didn't like going from Vista Ultimate to 7 Home Premium. I was sweating when it said I needed to do a clean install and all I had was an upgrade disk. So I said what the hell, let's give it a try. Viola it works.

X-Terminator
11-17-2009, 10:10 AM
Thanks for the heads-up, Hammer. I beta-tested Win7 for a few weeks earlier this year and it was buggy as hell - numerous drivers didn't work and my firewall crapped the bed. Other than that, it doesn't look any different than Vista, but it loads much faster and XP users will like it. I will be upgrading both of my machines (desktop and laptop) to Win7 Ultimate at some point - as you know, I work in IT as well and I get a free upgrade. The only thing holding it up right now is making sure our backup client works with it, as my laptop gets backed up at work every day. And I've never really had a problem with Vista either - it's been very stable since the day I installed it. The only BSOD I've had was caused by a HDD failure.

steelreserve
11-17-2009, 02:36 PM
I've got to say, I've got two computers with Vista and never had any problems with it. I really don't understand why people were so butthurt over it. So I'm probably going to wait until the next time I build a new machine to go for WIndows 7; otherwise I'd just be wasting money.

SteelerEmpire
11-17-2009, 03:23 PM
Thanks.... I work out of my home office most of the time and I will be in the market for an additional computer in a few months.... hopefully 7 will be running a lot smother by then...

revefsreleets
11-17-2009, 04:05 PM
Our laptop came with Vista and it's running fine with no problems, but both my work and home PC's are running XP. I ran 98 until i was sure XP was solid and stable, and I won't switch until I'm sure 7 is at least as stable as XP.

I do think it's comical to see Apple still trying to run with the ole "Windows always crashes" line....Mac's crash and are just as unstable as PC's (both practically never do). It's all just reputation at this point...and Apple NEEDS to keep the perception of better reliability to justify their 50%+ higher price points for all the exact same stuff...

SteelersinCA
11-17-2009, 04:19 PM
I love Windows 7. I have had no issues with it, only with my peripherals being slow to update their drivers. There is a way to trick Windows 7 into running an upgrade without having to do a fresh install. I can't find the thread I used to do it, but I'm sure a google search will turn up something.

AllD
11-17-2009, 04:29 PM
Windows 7 crashed my VIC-20. Had to switch over to the TRS-80 and it crashed too.

43Hitman
11-17-2009, 04:54 PM
Windows 7 crashed my VIC-20. Had to switch over to the TRS-80 and it crashed too.

:toofunny::rofl: you probably should upgrade your ram to 16mb.

Preacher
11-17-2009, 05:40 PM
:toofunny::rofl: you probably should upgrade your ram to 16mb.

Don't you mean 32 K ?


Personally, I just bought vista about 8 months ago. THe only problem I have had with it, is that I have the 64 bit and some of my programs are a bit buggy on it because they prefer 32 bit.

But it is an excellent OS.


I have been getting a LOT of BSOD's... but something tells me that is a hardware issue and I blame a couple people on this board for that one.... mainly for typing the word "overclock" ! :chuckle::wink02:

Seriously,

Thanks for the write up. I probably will wait a year or two before I buy it... or just wait until the next generation comes out.

43Hitman
11-17-2009, 06:01 PM
Don't you mean 32 K ?




Oops! :doh: Yep that's what I mean.

Hammer67
11-17-2009, 08:18 PM
I had Vista Ultimate x64 and it was horrible I always had trouble with drivers and system crashes

Interesting...did you have SP2 installed? Vista never crashed on me, not once.

Hammer67
11-17-2009, 08:22 PM
I've got to say, I've got two computers with Vista and never had any problems with it. I really don't understand why people were so butthurt over it. So I'm probably going to wait until the next time I build a new machine to go for Windows 7; otherwise I'd just be wasting money.


It was mostly good advertising by Apple with their Mac commercials. If you actually used Vista, it was fine. People have short memories and forgot what a poor OS was (Windows ME). Plus, the hardware requirements were bigger then XP and those people that held onto the same $499 Dell they bought five years before, were mad because Vista wouldn't run on their out of spec hardware.

RE: TSR-80......ah, I loved my Tandy. Had the best sound and graphics around at the time. LOL!

AllD
11-17-2009, 08:40 PM
RE: TSR-80......ah, I loved my Tandy. Had the best sound and graphics around at the time. LOL![/QUOTE]



Lots of power equivalent to a contemporary pre-paid cell phone...maybe.

Galax Steeler
11-18-2009, 04:57 AM
I was thinking about going to windows 7 I have Vista now but what I am hearing I might just stay with Vista for a while longer.

Hammer67
11-18-2009, 07:00 AM
I was thinking about going to windows 7 I have Vista now but what I am hearing I might just stay with Vista for a while longer.


You won't gain much...I would wait around unless, for some reason, snap windows are a must have for you. :chuckle:

theplatypus
11-18-2009, 07:10 AM
I've got to say, I've got two computers with Vista and never had any problems with it. I really don't understand why people were so butthurt over it. So I'm probably going to wait until the next time I build a new machine to go for WIndows 7; otherwise I'd just be wasting money.


I've never had any crashes with Vista, but it hangs all the time. Suddenly decides that it needs 15-30 seconds to do anything. Vista Ultimate-4Gb DDR,Intel Dual Core blah blah. I've scanned it with just about every thing, format/ clean install and it still just hangs. I can toss in a livecd or install Debian and the machine runs perfectly. :shrug

Long live the penguin!

43Hitman
11-18-2009, 08:06 AM
Another problem I had with Vista was the it wasn't very gamer friendly, for instance, the only way COD 5 or COD 4 would run multiplayer is if I had my headphones and mic plugged in first. It would work fine if I wanted to play single player. That's the kind of crap I was tired of. I haven't had one problem since I installed Windows 7. There were other things too, like really long start up times and sometimes programs would take forever to open up.

@Hammer 67- Yeah I did have SP2..It may have been my older Foxconn board I dunno, but I was running DualCore(AMD 5600+) 4GB ram(Gskill) 2 NVidia 8600 GT's SLI'd, Western Digital 320GB HD sata(I know its small)

Now am running on a new(er) board Foxconn Destroyer with 8GB of OCZ ram, AMD 7850 Black Edition, Nvidia 9800 GTX, same HD and PS.

I did run Vista for a bit on the new hardware and didn't notice much of an improvement in the way the OS handled itself. Still had the same problems with certain programs, and games.

SteelersinCA
11-18-2009, 10:56 AM
I have been getting a LOT of BSOD's... but something tells me that is a hardware issue and I blame a couple people on this board for that one.... mainly for typing the word "overclock" ! :chuckle::wink02:



Sorry Preach, we warned you!!!

xfl2001fan
11-18-2009, 12:10 PM
Wife's laptop (brand new Toshiba) came with Vista Office Pro...and it has been a terrible experience.

Loaded Windows 7 Office (probably should have Ultimate...but there it is) and everything works fine now...except it won't let us go wireless. The only fixes I've seen online haven't done me any good (different drivers that needed loaded.) Should I try to reinstall (clean) and then just reload the programs she needs on it?

MACH1
11-18-2009, 01:17 PM
Wife's laptop (brand new Toshiba) came with Vista Office Pro...and it has been a terrible experience.

Loaded Windows 7 Office (probably should have Ultimate...but there it is) and everything works fine now...except it won't let us go wireless. The only fixes I've seen online haven't done me any good (different drivers that needed loaded.) Should I try to reinstall (clean) and then just reload the programs she needs on it?

If you can get online go here and run the driver update utility. See if it comes up with something.

http://www.intel.com/support/detect.htm

xfl2001fan
11-18-2009, 05:09 PM
If you can get online go here and run the driver update utility. See if it comes up with something.

http://www.intel.com/support/detect.htm

Unfortunately, it did nothing. When I go to create a network connection, it offers me two choices (Broadband and Dialup) but not the Wireless. When I click on Broadband, it keeps asking me for the password that my ISP gave me. I wasn't actually given a password though.

My wireless network I set up with my own personal router...and it works fine on every other computer/laptop in the house. It is password protected...but when I use the name/password, it does nothing for me.

I'm trying to find the option to click that says Wireless. When I use my FN buttons, FN8 is set for wireless and it is on. My router is working fine because I'm connected to the internet with my other laptop.

I'm so confuzzled. BTW, I'm using the internet (direct connect to my router) to type this... It connected via wireless when I was using Vista...but won't now.

X-Terminator
11-18-2009, 05:21 PM
Did you try going to the the manufacturer's website for the wireless card? They may have updated drivers there.

Hammer67
11-18-2009, 07:14 PM
Wife's laptop (brand new Toshiba) came with Vista Office Pro...and it has been a terrible experience.

Loaded Windows 7 Office (probably should have Ultimate...but there it is) and everything works fine now...except it won't let us go wireless. The only fixes I've seen online haven't done me any good (different drivers that needed loaded.) Should I try to reinstall (clean) and then just reload the programs she needs on it?

Sounds like driver issues. For laptops, you usually need to go to the manufacturer website for drivers. Toshiba should have a support site where you can look up drivers by the model.

And, I don't think you mean to include "office" in there. Office is a separate suite of programs from Windows.

xfl2001fan
11-19-2009, 11:32 AM
Yeah, I meant Windows Pro...not Office (though Office 07 did load quite nicely after the fact.)

I've tried out several Drivers from Toshiba...nothing seems to work. Microsoft tech support was useless. Looked up several other solutions that were of no use to me.

Borski
11-19-2009, 11:38 AM
I upgraded my netbook from XP to Win 7 with the $30 student offer and I love it, somehow it seems faster then XP, I was expecting to be a little slower. everything works great seems very stable, so far moreso then XP was for me and I loved how stable XP was. I was considering try a Mac for my next computer but I am very happy so far with Windows 7

X-Terminator
11-19-2009, 11:58 AM
Yeah, I meant Windows Pro...not Office (though Office 07 did load quite nicely after the fact.)

I've tried out several Drivers from Toshiba...nothing seems to work. Microsoft tech support was useless. Looked up several other solutions that were of no use to me.

At this point, I'd try looking in the Device Manager to see if there's a problem there. If you have the Computer icon on your desktop, right-click on it and select Properties. On the left side of the box that comes up, under Tasks, click Device Manager and look for Network Adapters to see if your wireless card is listed there. If it is, and there's a yellow "!" sign on it, then there likely is a problem with the driver. Click on it and try to uninstall the driver, then reinstall the driver you downloaded from Toshiba's website. See if that works. You can also access the Device Manager through the Control Panel.

xfl2001fan
11-19-2009, 12:46 PM
At this point, I'd try looking in the Device Manager to see if there's a problem there. If you have the Computer icon on your desktop, right-click on it and select Properties. On the left side of the box that comes up, under Tasks, click Device Manager and look for Network Adapters to see if your wireless card is listed there. If it is, and there's a yellow "!" sign on it, then there likely is a problem with the driver. Click on it and try to uninstall the driver, then reinstall the driver you downloaded from Toshiba's website. See if that works. You can also access the Device Manager through the Control Panel.

I didnt' even think about looking through the Device Manager. BAH...I'll do that when I get home. It's always the simple things I overlook. It's sad that I'm the closest to "tech savvy" in my family...and I didn't think of that. Thanx for your help, I'm sure that will work.

Bng_Hevn
11-20-2009, 01:01 PM
Few thoughts from a resident IT guy...first a bit of background. As a 20+ year computing vet and now an industry guy (manage data center engineers at a major banking data center), I have seen MS-DOS evolve. I went through the various Windows flavors (3.1 being the first I owned), from 95, to 98, to 98 Second Edition, to ME, to XP, to Vista and now Windows 7 (why they change the naming scheme so much, I don't know). I also play around with various Linux flavors as well.

.

Have you ever used a Mac? I've been in IT for 13 years now as a developer, I've been into web development for the past 3+ years.

Coming from Windows, there is no way ANY windows machine would compare the most basic of Macs. The only thing Window machines are good for is to play games that are not available for the Mac.

Anything Windows does is to "try" and make their product as good as Apple. I've been using a Mac for 2+ years and although I'm by far not a Mac guru, I can still list a bazillion things that it offers above and beyond PCs

Also, as for price, Macs are more expensive but what you get is a) quality and b) all the software you need. They are turn key. With a PC, you need to find/buy and install software as you need it, which is often for anyone doing things > surfing/checking email.

I have a home-built PC at home that I put together in January '08. It cost about $1300 in parts and was well above average in terms of quality. Not top of the line, but "second generation top of the line". That machine is already useless for current games.

Also, with PCs you have to wipe and reinstall every so often from the inevitable problems you will encounter due to registry errors, viruses etc.

It's funny. I've talked to people who were die-hard PC owners until they tried the Mac.Outside of gaming, a person would be nuts to choose a PC over a Mac.

Also, the Mac Mini is only $600. I challenge you to give specs for ANY Windows based machine that is less or as expensive and is as good.

xfl2001fan
11-20-2009, 01:24 PM
I have a home-built PC at home that I put together in January '08. It cost about $1300 in parts and was well above average in terms of quality. Not top of the line, but "second generation top of the line". That machine is already useless for current games.

Than you did something wrong, because my home built PC costed me a little over $600 4 years ago...and I can still run current games on it. It's sometimes a bit laggy on only the absolute newest stuff...but that's about it.

Steelboy84
11-20-2009, 02:03 PM
I might have to try this Windows 7.

It won't be the new kid on the block for long though. The next Windows will probably hit in less than 2 years or so.

xfl2001fan
11-20-2009, 02:07 PM
I might have to try this Windows 7.

It won't be the new kid on the block for long though. The next Windows will probably hit in less than 2 years or so.

What, you think it'll last 2 years before Windows Alpha/Omega comes out? :flap:

43Hitman
11-20-2009, 02:10 PM
I have a home-built PC at home that I put together in January '08. It cost about $1300 in parts and was well above average in terms of quality. Not top of the line, but "second generation top of the line". That machine is already useless for current games.




I can't agree with you here. When it comes to games..you need two things that can really take you a long ways..good ram and decent video cards. Both are fairly cheap, cause you don't have to have a top of the line card to run the latest games, and 4 GB of ram is more than enough. I have never spent more than 200 dollars for a video card and have never had a problem playing the latest games. So I think you may have done something wrong in your setup for you not to be able to play the newest games.

43Hitman
11-20-2009, 02:11 PM
What, you think it'll last 2 years before Windows Alpha/Omega comes out? :flap:


What ever happened to Longhorn? Not sure I have those names correct..will have to check and edit I guess.

Edit: Looks like Longhorn is still around..

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windows-Longhorn-Resurrected-and-Available-for-Download-55624.shtml

Steelboy84
11-20-2009, 02:12 PM
What, you think it'll last 2 years before Windows Alpha/Omega comes out? :flap:

Or Windows: The Next Generation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Or Windows Outerspace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

X-Terminator
11-20-2009, 05:12 PM
Have you ever used a Mac? I've been in IT for 13 years now as a developer, I've been into web development for the past 3+ years.

Coming from Windows, there is no way ANY windows machine would compare the most basic of Macs. The only thing Window machines are good for is to play games that are not available for the Mac.

Anything Windows does is to "try" and make their product as good as Apple. I've been using a Mac for 2+ years and although I'm by far not a Mac guru, I can still list a bazillion things that it offers above and beyond PCs

Also, as for price, Macs are more expensive but what you get is a) quality and b) all the software you need. They are turn key. With a PC, you need to find/buy and install software as you need it, which is often for anyone doing things > surfing/checking email.

I have a home-built PC at home that I put together in January '08. It cost about $1300 in parts and was well above average in terms of quality. Not top of the line, but "second generation top of the line". That machine is already useless for current games.

Also, with PCs you have to wipe and reinstall every so often from the inevitable problems you will encounter due to registry errors, viruses etc.

It's funny. I've talked to people who were die-hard PC owners until they tried the Mac.Outside of gaming, a person would be nuts to choose a PC over a Mac.

Also, the Mac Mini is only $600. I challenge you to give specs for ANY Windows based machine that is less or as expensive and is as good.

I like Macs, but they will never make any headway until they come down in price, and that includes the Mini. I've looked at the specs on the Mini, and it is way overpriced for what it has.

Plus, I can build a PC just as good as any Mac for less, and never have to pay one dime for most software you will need. You can get an office suite (OpenOffice), anti-virus (I use Avast Home Edition v. 4.8), firewall (I use Comodo Internet Security), not to mention numerous antispyware programs (Spybot and WinPatrol, among others) absolutely free, and all of them are good programs. You can find any program you want that does virtually anything you want for free if you know where to look. So you have to work a little bit harder to build and maintain a quality PC, but in the end, it will still end up saving you money while not sacrificing much in terms of quality. This is just my opinion though - I'm sure you will disagree.

Bng_Hevn
11-25-2009, 01:24 PM
Than you did something wrong, because my home built PC costed me a little over $600 4 years ago...and I can still run current games on it. It's sometimes a bit laggy on only the absolute newest stuff...but that's about it.

We must have different standards of what is acceptable. I'll bet you don't run the game on max settings if you're using a setup from 4 years ago.

As for the video card and RAM, the video card is what I'm referring to mainly because is the brain of running games. A high-end VC can run well over $1000. I tend to stay in the $200 - $400 range.

Try running Dragon Age: Origins or Aiion at max settings on your machine and THEN come back and say it is fine.

If all you're looking to do is play donkey kong then yeah, I'm sure your system fits the bill but play a cutting-edge MORPG and you'll get a true test.

As for the Mac mini, it costs just $600. NO WAY can you assemble a PC for that price or less and have it be as good. Not at "normal" prices of components. And I'm not talking about just the speed either, I'm talking about overall useability.

My father-in-law was in the market for a new computer to replace his 8 year old Dell. I recommended the Mac Mini. I set it up for him and gave him a 15 minute tutorial and he is ecstatic over the machine and you're talking about a 67 year old who is as tech challenged as you can get.

Again, this bears repeating, NO WAY can you assemble a $600 PC that fits the bill. I'd like to see the specs w/prices if you think you have one.

xfl2001fan
11-25-2009, 04:36 PM
We must have different standards of what is acceptable. I'll bet you don't run the game on max settings if you're using a setup from 4 years ago.

As for the video card and RAM, the video card is what I'm referring to mainly because is the brain of running games. A high-end VC can run well over $1000. I tend to stay in the $200 - $400 range.

Try running Dragon Age: Origins or Aiion at max settings on your machine and THEN come back and say it is fine.

If all you're looking to do is play donkey kong then yeah, I'm sure your system fits the bill but play a cutting-edge MORPG and you'll get a true test.

As for the Mac mini, it costs just $600. NO WAY can you assemble a PC for that price or less and have it be as good. Not at "normal" prices of components. And I'm not talking about just the speed either, I'm talking about overall useability.

My father-in-law was in the market for a new computer to replace his 8 year old Dell. I recommended the Mac Mini. I set it up for him and gave him a 15 minute tutorial and he is ecstatic over the machine and you're talking about a 67 year old who is as tech challenged as you can get.

Again, this bears repeating, NO WAY can you assemble a $600 PC that fits the bill. I'd like to see the specs w/prices if you think you have one.

Well, I two box Everquest on this PC still...and while I don't have max settings...I also don't need max settings. While EQ isn't the new Aion...it's far superior to the Donkey Kong that you are referring to. Even if I had the best Graphics card, I'd still run the settings where I have them...

That being said, I'll have to look at the Mac Mini's specs and get back with you. I am pretty confident I'll be able to find sale prices (which I used when I built my PC) on the components that will allow me to build a machine comparable. I'm also confident that some of the other (more tech savvy) posters on this board could do the same.

Bng_Hevn
11-27-2009, 04:37 AM
Well, I two box Everquest on this PC still...and while I don't have max settings...I also don't need max settings. While EQ isn't the new Aion...it's far superior to the Donkey Kong that you are referring to. Even if I had the best Graphics card, I'd still run the settings where I have them...

That being said, I'll have to look at the Mac Mini's specs and get back with you. I am pretty confident I'll be able to find sale prices (which I used when I built my PC) on the components that will allow me to build a machine comparable. I'm also confident that some of the other (more tech savvy) posters on this board could do the same.

We'll have to agree to disagree, until you can show the specs. And like I said, judging it by the hardware is a 1 dimensional view. You have to look at the usability of the machine. For $600 I just don't see it happening.

Also, I look at things from a developer's point of view too. There are so many things the Mac offers that the PC just can't compete with.

I'm no hardware guy and I actually had a friend of mine talk me through the assembly of the machine, he recommended the parts. So for "expertise" in that area is a moot point. The machine I put together performs as good as if he were to assemble it and he is a guru when it comes to PC hardware.

As for settings, I can get away with a lesser machine to play the games without the game being on max settings. If you choose to adjust the settings, then yes I would be able to play the latest games on this machine...assuming they play on XP.

My problem with Windows is that it is a money pit. I usually don't buy Windows OS because my friend will burn me a copy of his.

In 2000 I was running Windows 98. I was trying to play Mech Warrior (3 or 4) and there was an issue with the OS when trying to use a joystick. I read where the issue was resolved with 98 2nd Ed so I sucked it up and bought the OS for the first time. I paid $100 for it. Literally less than 2 weeks later Windows 2000 came out. Now, it certainly is my fault (now that I think about it) that I didn't research the release date of the new Windows, but after that I decided that i would never buy it again. With rebate, the new version was same price as what I paid for 2nd edition.

Fast forward to Windows Vista. My friend, who is a big gamer, had nothing but problems with Vista when it was released. Also, to run it, he had to more than double the amount of RAM he had because of the sloppy coding and lack of efficiency.

His machine still crashed constantly until he got all the setting correct. Not something the "average user" can do. If you make a living on that end of the spectrum then you can get it to behave, but for a normal, non-tech user it would be a horrible experience.

Although Im on the software end of things, I've been developing for 14 years now and more than capable of holding my own when it comes to installing/using software and I didn't want to have to deal with a buggy OS so I didn't upgrade, if you can actually say that going from XP to Vista was an upgrade. Also, from all the reviews I've read, the "experts" recommended that if you're happy with XP, stick with it. What does THAT say for Vista.

Another thing, I heard from another person who is on the hardware side of things that Vista was a "money maker", it was an interim OS released to appease people until 7 was released. I don't know that for certain and there is really no way to prove it, but from the quality of Vista I don't doubt it.

As for Windows 7, I have heard nothing but great reviews on it. They say that 7 is all of what Vista "should have been". IMO, Windows has a long way to go before they can match the quality of a Mac.

Yes, Macs are more expensive but you get what you pay for. Two years ago today, black friday of '07 I bought my wife a PC laptop that had Vista. It costs a little over $600 which is pretty cheap for a laptop. Our intent was to buy a $300 laptop based on the ads we saw but they were, of course, in limited supply. My wife only uses the machine for email and internet so we wanted to go cheap.

Now, the machine itself could be to blame an not Vista, but it was plain junk. We live in NC and bought it at our in-laws in N. VA so we had to wait to return it. Over Christmas we returned the PC laptop and decided to look at Macs. The mac was $1100, obviously much more than what we wanted to pay but I figured if it last 3 years then it would be worth the additional money. I can't imagine that $600 laptop lasting more than 2 years and still being fast, not that it was to begin with, but you know what i mean.

So, we went shopping for a Macbook. All told we ended up spending $1600 on it because I wanted the firewire port and a few more things the "base model" didn't have. My wife is (or was) the computer illiterate, for the most part. She used to work with Excel type apps when she was working but since we had our son, she has been a stay at home mom and therefore was "out of touch" even with those types of apps.

After 2 years, she is showing me how to do certain things on the Mac - the Mac is *that* easy to work with. Yeah, it's more expensive but for the $30 I paid for Snow Leopard, the machine is even faster and better now than it was when we bought it. Barring any kind of major hardware issues, this machine will last her for years to come so although it was expensive up front, in the end it all equals out in years of use.

I have a Macbook Pro for work and as a developer, if I were forced to use a PC I'd buy my own Mac. PCs are not designed with common sense in mind. You have to go to a bazillion different places to change this or to change that. From what I understand, 7 is designed better but even with that, they have a long way to go before they can compete with Macs.

Again, if $ is an issue and you don't mind the lesser quality, then PCs can be your friend. But if you want quality (and you'll definitely pay for it), then Mac is the way to go. That leaves me in a quandary. I want the Mac desktop but I can't spend $2700 on it and I don't want to sink any more money into my desktop. That is why I rarely play games anymore. I'm kind of screwed on that front.

Anyway, what I say is simply my opinion based on my experience and knowledge so to each their own.

xfl2001fan
11-27-2009, 10:27 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree, until you can show the specs. And like I said, judging it by the hardware is a 1 dimensional view. You have to look at the usability of the machine. For $600 I just don't see it happening.

I'm having my wife go through our receipts so that I can see prices on the parts, everything was purchased on sale...most of it during the Christmas rush season of Black Friday>Christmas Eve...regardless, I'm still running EQ on it...two boxing occasionally and it's fine. I'm running Windows XP now...and may upgrade to Windows 7...because my wife seems to enjoy it on her laptop. There were some drivers issues when she got her free upgrade to 7 (from Vista)...but Drivers are easy enough to install...and free to boot.

My problem with Windows is that it is a money pit. I usually don't buy Windows OS because my friend will burn me a copy of his.
That's theft. No way around it...you and your friend are stealing from Microsoft when you do that...which drives up the price for the rest of us that prefer it over Mac. Thanks for that.

In 2000 I was running Windows 98. I was trying to play Mech Warrior (3 or 4) and there was an issue with the OS when trying to use a joystick. I read where the issue was resolved with 98 2nd Ed so I sucked it up and bought the OS for the first time. I paid $100 for it. Literally less than 2 weeks later Windows 2000 came out. Now, it certainly is my fault (now that I think about it) that I didn't research the release date of the new Windows, but after that I decided that i would never buy it again. With rebate, the new version was same price as what I paid for 2nd edition.
Microsoft does have it's downsides...and 98 2nd edition was probably better than anything they put out til XP...but you should almost never go into any new software (Mac or Windows) when it's first released. That's a rookie mistake in the software side of things. After 14 years as a developer, you should know this. That's on you.

Fast forward to Windows Vista. My friend, who is a big gamer, had nothing but problems with Vista when it was released. Also, to run it, he had to more than double the amount of RAM he had because of the sloppy coding and lack of efficiency.
Yup, Vista sucked...at least in my limited experience with it. That being said...there are some people who have had no issues with Vista whatsoever. I wasn't one of those people...nor were most of my friends. This is one of the reasons why Windows allows you to upgrade (for free) to Windows 7 on a lot of the newer laptops/PCs. They understand their mistake and know that if they don't offer the free upgrade, they'll lose more business to Mac.

Although Im on the software end of things, I've been developing for 14 years now and more than capable of holding my own when it comes to installing/using software and I didn't want to have to deal with a buggy OS so I didn't upgrade, if you can actually say that going from XP to Vista was an upgrade. Also, from all the reviews I've read, the "experts" recommended that if you're happy with XP, stick with it. What does THAT say for Vista. Not arguing here...I still use XP on my home PC...while my wife is using 7 on her laptop. I would have preferred she use XP there as well...but the option wasn't available when we were picking it out.

Another thing, I heard from another person who is on the hardware side of things that Vista was a "money maker", it was an interim OS released to appease people until 7 was released. I don't know that for certain and there is really no way to prove it, but from the quality of Vista I don't doubt it.
Really? Does he wear a tinfoil hat too? Did he also tell you about the missiles one of our F-16's fired at the Pentagon on 9-11?

As for Windows 7, I have heard nothing but great reviews on it. They say that 7 is all of what Vista "should have been". IMO, Windows has a long way to go before they can match the quality of a Mac. If Windos 7 works without bugs (and so far, it appears that way) and you can do everything you need to do using it...why pay extra for Mac?

Yes, Macs are more expensive but you get what you pay for. Two years ago today, black friday of '07 I bought my wife a PC laptop that had Vista. It costs a little over $600 which is pretty cheap for a laptop. Our intent was to buy a $300 laptop based on the ads we saw but they were, of course, in limited supply. My wife only uses the machine for email and internet so we wanted to go cheap. Now, the machine itself could be to blame an not Vista, but it was plain junk. We live in NC and bought it at our in-laws in N. VA so we had to wait to return it. Over Christmas we returned the PC laptop and decided to look at Macs. The mac was $1100, obviously much more than what we wanted to pay but I figured if it last 3 years then it would be worth the additional money. I can't imagine that $600 laptop lasting more than 2 years and still being fast, not that it was to begin with, but you know what i mean.
Touching story. In this case, a $600 laptop is a cheap laptop...and it would have likely been junk whether it was PC or MAC. If you had spent 1100 on a PC, you'd have had a great product. You're comparing a bottom feeding laptop ($600) to a MAC that is nearly twice as expensive. That's like shopping for a cheap diamond ring...not being happy with the 1/4CT at one store...and buying a 1/2CT at another and proclaiming that the first store was just terrible. It's a retarded comparison in both cases.

So, we went shopping for a Macbook. All told we ended up spending $1600 on it because I wanted the firewire port and a few more things the "base model" didn't have. My wife is (or was) the computer illiterate, for the most part. She used to work with Excel type apps when she was working but since we had our son, she has been a stay at home mom and therefore was "out of touch" even with those types of apps.
See, we weren't happy with the $600 PC...so we spent $1000 MORE on the MAC and we're so much happier now. Methinks your wife isn't the only one "out of touch".

After 2 years, she is showing me how to do certain things on the Mac - the Mac is *that* easy to work with. Yeah, it's more expensive but for the $30 I paid for Snow Leopard, the machine is even faster and better now than it was when we bought it. Barring any kind of major hardware issues, this machine will last her for years to come so although it was expensive up front, in the end it all equals out in years of use.
You spend $1600 on a PC laptop...you can game with it...not high end game...but certainly game with it. It'll last you for years as well...you're making a terrible comparison. It's not even close.

I have a Macbook Pro for work and as a developer, if I were forced to use a PC I'd buy my own Mac. PCs are not designed with common sense in mind. You have to go to a bazillion different places to change this or to change that. From what I understand, 7 is designed better but even with that, they have a long way to go before they can compete with Macs.
From what you understand as a non-PC user. I don't trust the "understanding" of a guy who wants to compare a $600 PC laptop to a $1630 MAC laptop.

Again, if $ is an issue and you don't mind the lesser quality, then PCs can be your friend. But if you want quality (and you'll definitely pay for it), then Mac is the way to go. That leaves me in a quandary. I want the Mac desktop but I can't spend $2700 on it and I don't want to sink any more money into my desktop. That is why I rarely play games anymore. I'm kind of screwed on that front. For $1600, you can own a sweet Desktop (that is easily upgradeable in the future) by PC. Much of the software that you want (Spyware, Anti-Virus) is free...and you'd only have to be concerned with which OS you want to use. Since Windows 7 has (to this point) been proclaimed as a real success...I don't see what the issue is. At $1600 (the price for your laptop), your machine would last for a good 4-5 years (minimum) barring hardware failures.

Bng_Hevn
11-27-2009, 02:07 PM
I know a person who bought an Alienware, top of the line PC laptop. Guess what he is using now? A Macbook Pro.

The example I gave is what happened to me, i was not comparing a $600 laptop to the Mac because there is not comparison. There is no comparison between a $1600 pc laptop and a mac - PCs are simply inferior for anyone who uses their machine for anything more than internet and email. Even my wife would never use a PC again based on how easy it is to use a Mac. Again, it is not just specs it is the level of user-friendly and PCs absolutely pale in comparison to a Mac.

You take anyone who is an avid PC user and have them use a Mac for 30 days. I'd be willing to bet you anything that 99% of them would prefer to use the Mac afterwards. Period. Literally everyone I've spoken to who have been able to afford quality and bought a Mac would never go back to PC.


That's theft. No way around it...you and your friend are stealing from Microsoft when you do that...which drives up the price for the rest of us that prefer it over Mac. Thanks for that.


No dispute there. IF MS would put out a quality product maybe I'd be more inclined to pay for it. As it stands now, I simply don't use it at all. The bright side for MS is that they don't lose anything because if it is a matter of paying for it or not using it, I would choose the latter. Mac on the other hand I'm more than willing to pay for it because it is reasonably price AND it is of high quality.


Microsoft does have it's downsides...and 98 2nd edition was probably better than anything they put out til XP...but you should almost never go into any new software (Mac or Windows) when it's first released. That's a rookie mistake in the software side of things. After 14 years as a developer, you should know this. That's on you.


Hmmm, I believe I said in 2000, this is now 2009. At the time I was in the field for 4 years. Besides, I never said I had any problems with the OS. The only "problem{" I had was with the joystick, not really a deal breaker when buying an OS. What I took issue with was paying $120 for an OS just to have the new one come out at the same price a short time later. I already took the hit for that.



Touching story. In this case, a $600 laptop is a cheap laptop...and it would have likely been junk whether it was PC or MAC. If you had spent 1100 on a PC, you'd have had a great product. You're comparing a bottom feeding laptop ($600) to a MAC that is nearly twice as expensive. That's like shopping for a cheap diamond ring...not being happy with the 1/4CT at one store...and buying a 1/2CT at another and proclaiming that the first store was just terrible. It's a retarded comparison in both cases.


You can spend dollar for dollar on a PC laptop to a Mac and you won't get the same quality. The PC laptop, say 4 years later, will be a paper weight. The Mac's performance will be virtually the same. My wife's laptop is 2+ years old and I'd keep it over a $2000 brand new PC laptop.


See, we weren't happy with the $600 PC...so we spent $1000 MORE on the MAC and we're so much happier now. Methinks your wife isn't the only one "out of touch".


it's called "having no faith in Windows based machines".

Could we have gone cheaper for a better PC laptop? Sure. Would it be serviceable to the same level our Mac is now? Highly unlikely.


From what you understand as a non-PC user. I don't trust the "understanding" of a guy who wants to compare a $600 PC laptop to a $1630 MAC laptop.


Again, not comparing $600 to $1600. I just wasn't mentally challenged enough to pay $1000+ for PC laptop. Otherwise I'd be using it for comparison.


For $1600, you can own a sweet Desktop (that is easily upgradeable in the future) by PC. Much of the software that you want (Spyware, Anti-Virus) is free...and you'd only have to be concerned with which OS you want to use. Since Windows 7 has (to this point) been proclaimed as a real success...I don't see what the issue is. At $1600 (the price for your laptop), your machine would last for a good 4-5 years (minimum) barring hardware failures.


Again, you're not comprehending what I'm saying. It is not just about specs, it is about the machine being user-friendly to the point that makes it easy for the normal user to use it. I've used PCs, my wife has used PCs, I know plenty of people who use/have used PCs. To a man, all who have tried the Mac now swear by the Mac.

If you're happy with PC that's fine. But until you've tried a Mac you having literally nothing on which to base your opinion. Use a Mac for 30 days and then decide which you like better.

Bottom line is Mac is more expensive but is better all around quality. You get what you pay for.

xfl2001fan
11-27-2009, 09:15 PM
Bottom line is Mac is more expensive but is better all around quality. You get what you pay for.

Bottom line is you prefer Macs, I prefer PCs. My 4 year old PC works just fine after four years...I can still run games on it quite nicely...and it never presents me with any major issues. Have there every been minor glitches, it's a piece of electronics. I've had glitches on calculators. But nothing I couldn't overcome easily enough. You like yours...I like mine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. You take your overpriced paperweight...I've got mine. :flap:

43Hitman
11-28-2009, 10:30 AM
All right Bng_Hevn, fess up, we know your really Justin Long.:chuckle:

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq312/43hitman/JustinLong.jpg

X-Terminator
11-28-2009, 10:38 AM
Bng_Hevn, I'm not going to put you down for your choice. But as I said earlier, until Macs come down in price (and that includes the Mini), then they're still going to be considered a "niche" system. I build my own PCs to the specs that I want, and the performance I get out of it is as good as any Mac I've ever used, and that includes the one I use at work. So you see, I've used both...and I still prefer PCs.

One thing, though - Mac users are becoming almost as jaded and almost condescending as Linux users. They love to put down people who use PCs, which (for me, anyway) is just another reason not to use either one.

43Hitman
12-13-2009, 09:39 AM
http://technologizer.com/2009/11/30/windows-7-survey/

Hammer67
12-22-2009, 03:43 PM
We must have different standards of what is acceptable. I'll bet you don't run the game on max settings if you're using a setup from 4 years ago.

As for the video card and RAM, the video card is what I'm referring to mainly because is the brain of running games. A high-end VC can run well over $1000. I tend to stay in the $200 - $400 range.

Try running Dragon Age: Origins or Aiion at max settings on your machine and THEN come back and say it is fine.



You lost me. I just bought a ATI HD4890 for $189 and am playing Dragon Age Origins at 1980x1200 with full AA and AF, all settings maxed and at 50fps average. That goes for CofD MW2, too.

All told, my machine has been an evolving thing since I built it in 1998. I upgrade ram here, graphics card there, CPU/MB every few years, etc. That's why I love PC's.

But I digress, the only difference between PC's and MAC's are the OS's as Apple uses Intel processors now. If Apple would get out of the hardware business they would be much better off.

I have used Mac OS but didn't see a reason to jump to it. Windows and Linux are fine for me. Plus, I'm a hardware guy and like to tinker. And, as for IT, I work in a data center, not software development. We only install Sun and Wintel servers...no Mac's in professional environment.

Hammer67
12-22-2009, 03:56 PM
Bng_Hevn, I'm not going to put you down for your choice. But as I said earlier, until Macs come down in price (and that includes the Mini), then they're still going to be considered a "niche" system. I build my own PCs to the specs that I want, and the performance I get out of it is as good as any Mac I've ever used, and that includes the one I use at work. So you see, I've used both...and I still prefer PCs.

One thing, though - Mac users are becoming almost as jaded and almost condescending as Linux users. They love to put down people who use PCs, which (for me, anyway) is just another reason not to use either one.

Couldn't agree more. There is absolutely no sense in being emotionally invested in your OS. It just stinks of inferiority complex.

Personally, I love PC's for what you mentioned. I am a hardware guy. Windows problems get blown out of proportion. The fact is that over 85% of computer owners are running a version of Windows. That's a lot of people using it and a lot of different hardware configurations, driver versions, software installs, etc. If Mac OS had the same market penetration, with the same hardware variation, you would have the same problems. The same thing is true with Linux, which I dual boot to. I have a top tier PC that, if I broke down the parts, would probably cost around $800. And, I only upgrade components as needed so no need plunking down a bunch at once for every upgrade.

I could go point for point to dispute this guys claims but I digress as it is easily answered with a little research. Vista wasn't all that bad, I ran it for two years without problem. And, it didn't handle RAM poorly...just differently then XP. It wasn't "sloppy coding". Not sure how Mac people get this info. It's all the cute marketing commercials.

I hope Apple drops the hardware thing and allows us PC builders and hardware enthusiasts to try their OS without having to buy their hardware. It would open them up to greater acceptance aside from the fringe users.

In the end...these are just tools people, and very subjective ones at that.

SteelMember
12-23-2009, 08:02 AM
In the end...these are just tools people, and very subjective ones at that.

Truer statement has never been made. :hatsoff:

When I started in graphics, early 90's, graphic arts was making the big move from antiquated, time consuming paste-up, mechanicals, STAT camera etc., to computer based programs. Hooray for the revolution! :applaudit::chuckle:

Apple was leading the way in this area. Photoshop, Illustrator, QuarkXpress. I had to learn on the PC counterparts at the time... CorelDraw, PageMaker because the labs didn't offer Macs at the time, but when I finally got my hands on one, it was almost night and day. As time has passed, software was offered on both platforms, and the machines, besides the OP have become very comparable.

As to your statement, these programs have given many people the opportunity to "play", but in the end it is just a tool. There is plenty of foundation needed to utilize the "magic" these boxes can perform.

Preacher
12-23-2009, 08:23 PM
My last major computer buy (last summer) I had to make a big choice.

As I messed around with Macs, I was very impressed. However, went I actually went to buy one, a number of issues came up.

First, the cost was simply idiotic, WAY too restrictive.

Second, I would be locked into that computer, with no chance to upgrade or change things.

So I decided to build my own computer..and am MUCH happier.

I also bought a laptop on TOP of building my computer, all for the same price and software that it would have taken to get 1 mac..and not even to run it the way I wanted it.

Borski
12-24-2009, 12:42 PM
My last major computer buy (last summer) I had to make a big choice.

As I messed around with Macs, I was very impressed. However, went I actually went to buy one, a number of issues came up.

First, the cost was simply idiotic, WAY too restrictive.

Second, I would be locked into that computer, with no chance to upgrade or change things.

So I decided to build my own computer..and am MUCH happier.

I also bought a laptop on TOP of building my computer, all for the same price and software that it would have taken to get 1 mac..and not even to run it the way I wanted it.

I've been thinking about building my own for a little while know, I think it could be a fun project and a cost efective way to get a good PC. so far I think I found the CPU and Motherboard I want to use, but after that I'm not too sure.

Hammer67
12-26-2009, 02:27 PM
I've been thinking about building my own for a little while know, I think it could be a fun project and a cost efective way to get a good PC. so far I think I found the CPU and Motherboard I want to use, but after that I'm not too sure.

All depends on what you want to to with it. First thing I would ask is if you are a gamer...if so, you will be building a totally different PC then if you were a casual home user (photos, internet, email and productivity).

If you are a gamer, the next component would have to be a graphics card...most motherboards have them built in but they are way too underpowered for anything other then basic productivity.

Things to consider when building a PC:

1) Processor (and RAM and motherboard as they are all interdependent and related)
2) Graphics card
3) Case (Get one with enough room for future expansion and airflow)
4) power supply (500 watts should be good for basic PC, 750 watts+ if you are a gamer)
5) Hard drives (storage amount depends on usage. IF you do a lot of photography or video, go high on the storage)
6) DVD or Blu Ray burner
7) Wireless adapters if you are going to go that route
8) Any other peripherals

Preacher
12-27-2009, 06:20 PM
I've been thinking about building my own for a little while know, I think it could be a fun project and a cost efective way to get a good PC. so far I think I found the CPU and Motherboard I want to use, but after that I'm not too sure.

Last year was my first build. I will never buy a desktop again.

A couple hints I found out. Make sure you build with the I7 chip. The chip is everything that is claimed about it. Furthermore, just get the 920, unless you need the TOP TOP level speed. the I7 overclocks beautifully. I have the 940 (no longer available), I have a little more overclocking headroom with that chip, but not sure if it is worth the 250 extra I spent on it.

Second, don't skimp on the board. Get yourself a really good board. Some guys around here can help you quite a bit.

One thing I would be very careful of, when you get the board, make sure you get the right memory. You can check out the codes on different manufacturing sites.

Also, Make SURE to get a heat sink if you get the I7. I didn't, and had to pull my board back out. The thing runs hot.