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View Full Version : FIRE LIGASHESKY NOW!!!!


joelsteed
11-17-2009, 03:02 PM
I'm a die-hard fan, living and working the Philipppines. I pay good money to catch my Steelers by watching them online and also ordered a special cable subscription so I don't miss any of the games.


When Bob Ligashesky was fired by the Rams as their special teams coach, they were once again near the bottom of the NFL in kick returns in 2006, ranking 26th on kickoffs and 25th on punts. The kickoff return game in particular was a problem all season as the team never identified a viable return man. The coverage units were also poor again, as St. Louis surrendered three touchdowns on returns, one on a punt and two on kickoffs. Why is this guy getting a special pass? Is it because he's a local guy? What is the purpose of a special teams coach when you are ranked in the bottom of the NFL and you're putting in your starters to play on special teams? How in the hell did he get a job in the first place? On what merit? What will happen if a Bret Keisel or a James Harrison gets hurt playing special teams? ( or any of the starters? ) How long do we have to wait until we fire this guy? Do we wait until the special teams gives up two touchdowns in the AFC championship game, like back in 2002 when Jay Hayes got fired after the special teams gave up two touchdown returns?

Ever since Ligashesky has took over on special teams, the standard has become so low that we as fans, have become satisfied when we the special teams merely "survives". We don't even expect our special teams to be a strength, we just don't want to give up any big plays.

I find maddening and comical that Arnold Harrison was let go and Mike Wallace took a kick return back. TALK ABOUT BEING DESPERATE. When was the last time another player in the NFL, during the same game, replaced a kick-off returner? Do you the blocking on the Steelers punt return and kickoff return teams? THEY HAVE NO BLOCKERS!!!! Every time Logan or Moore has the ball, they are swarmed by 4-5 defenders with nowhere to run!!!!! Am I the only one that sees this?!?! You can have Gale Sayers back there returning kicks. It won't make a difference.


Remember, Allen Rossum, the kickoff returner whom the Steelers traded a draft pick for in 2007? He was one of the best kickoff and punt returners in the NFL when the Steelers acquired him. However, Rossum became the fall guy ( sound familiar? ) and got cut. The Niners picked him up and of course he ran a kickoff return for a touchdown and enjoyed one of his best seasons in 2008, having set career highs of 26.8 yards per kickoff return and 14.9 per punt return. The kickoff average ranked third in the NFC while the punt mark was second best in the NFL. Rossum ranks second in league history with 14,987 return yards.

The problem is the special teams coach, not the players. We expect our defense and offense to excel. Why don't we put the same standards on the special teams? Is there any other team in the NFL that is this bad on special teams? I find it hippocritical that Mike Tomlin always talks about the importance of special teams and he's putting up with this.

I long for the days when we had Roon Zook and Bobby April....hell, I'd even take Jay Hayes again )

"Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

OneForTheToe
11-17-2009, 03:08 PM
Last year are coverage teams were among the best in the league. Our only problem on Special teams was our punter. Who gets the credit for how they played last year. Personally, if they him at the end year so be it, but ignoring half the facts to make a point doesn't solve anything. Also, I remeber losing games under Cowher because of our coverage teams. Whose fault was that? f

joelsteed
11-17-2009, 03:25 PM
Our we talking about last year or this year? And where did the Steelers rank last year in kickoff and punt returns? ( maybe it's you that is only reporting "half" ) Ooops, I forgot. The kickoff team last year of Najeh Davenport and Gary Rusell was SOOOO ELECTRIFYING!!!!!

OneForTheToe
11-17-2009, 03:30 PM
Our we talking about last year or this year? And where did the Steelers rank last year in kickoff and punt returns? ( maybe it's you that is only reporting "half" ) Ooops, I forgot. The kickoff team last year of Najeh Davenport and Gary Rusell was SOOOO ELECTRIFYING!!!!!


No it wasn't, but you just contradicted your own point about it being the coach and not the players:

The kickoff team last year of Najeh Davenport and Gary Rusell was SOOOO ELECTRIFYING!!!!!


So, it was the players? What Sp Teams coach in the world would have an electrifying return team with those two choices?

And our coverage teams were good last season.

revefsreleets
11-17-2009, 03:33 PM
Win? Players credit.

Lose? Coaches fault.

Yawn.

SteelMember
11-17-2009, 03:34 PM
But lets not put any blame on those "other" guys out there for not maintaining their lanes, shedding blockers and making tackles. That would be silly.

SMR
11-17-2009, 03:37 PM
I really wished we had never let go of Allen Rossum. He was GOOD.

joelsteed
11-17-2009, 03:44 PM
You know something is wrong when you hire a ST coach and then you also hire an "Assistant Special Teams" coach. Bottom line, the special teams SUCK THIS YEAR. My man toe is talking about last year.

By the way, Cowher did fire the special teams coach during his tenure. Did I answer YOUR question?

joelsteed
11-17-2009, 03:47 PM
No it wasn't, but you just contradicted your own point about it being the coach and not the players:

You're an idiot. How did I contradict my post? Gary Russell and Najeh Davenport was the kickoff returners and both are out of football a year later. You have to assume Ligashesky has the final say in the personnel matters, right?

Toe, apparently, the "No Child Left Behind" act, unfortunately, indeed, left you behind. You made a great point. Wait a minute, what was your point?

43Hitman
11-17-2009, 03:52 PM
Toe, apparently, the "No Child Left Behind" act, unfortunately, indeed, left you behind. You made a great point. Wait a minute, what was your point?


Oh the irony...:coffee:

joelsteed
11-17-2009, 03:54 PM
I really wished we had never let go of Allen Rossum. He was GOOD.

Doesn't matter is we still had Allen Rossum or Gale Sayers or Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson. When you are alone and have 11 guys swarming over you, you have no chance.

devilsdancefloor
11-17-2009, 03:58 PM
No it wasn't, but you just contradicted your own point about it being the coach and not the players:

You're an idiot. How did I contradict my post? Gary Russell and Najeh Davenport was the kickoff returners and both are out of football a year later. You have to assume Ligashesky has the final say in the personnel matters, right?

Toe, apparently, the "No Child Left Behind" act, unfortunately, indeed, left you behind. You made a great point. Wait a minute, what was your point?

http://i49.tinypic.com/wupcap.jpg

SteelCityMom
11-17-2009, 04:06 PM
No it wasn't, but you just contradicted your own point about it being the coach and not the players:

You're an idiot. How did I contradict my post? Gary Russell and Najeh Davenport was the kickoff returners and both are out of football a year later. You have to assume Ligashesky has the final say in the personnel matters, right?

Toe, apparently, the "No Child Left Behind" act, unfortunately, indeed, left you behind. You made a great point. Wait a minute, what was your point?

Dude, chill out. For one, you're not pointing anything out that everybody and their mothers doesn't already know.

Secondly, OneForTheToe is just pointing out that special teams coverage was one of the best in the league last year as far as blocking other teams kick/punt returns. The Steelers didn't let a single kick/punt get returned for a TD last year. Part of the problem this year is just players missing their assignments and blocking poorly. Does that ultimately rest on the coaches shoulders? Yes, but the players need to execute the plays properly as well. There's plenty of blame to be spread around here.

Lastly, making personal attacks like you have will get you nowhere except banned. There are plenty of ways to argue a topic without having to resort to name calling.

tony hipchest
11-17-2009, 04:13 PM
You know something is wrong when you hire a ST coach and then you also hire an "Assistant Special Teams" coach. Bottom line, the special teams SUCK THIS YEAR. My man toe is talking about last year.

By the way, Cowher did fire the special teams coach during his tenure. Did I answer YOUR question?

ahhhh yes.

cowher fired bobby april who was named ST coach of the year last year for the bills.

i always found it a bit strange how special teams were always supposed to be cowhers specialty, yet the steelers special teams generally sucked or were below average during his tenure.

HometownGal
11-17-2009, 04:19 PM
You're an idiot.

Hey noob - you aren't going to last 24 hours around here flaming other members. Watch your step, please.

As for "FIRING LIGASHESKY" - I'm with revs here.

:yawn:

Christian Snyder
11-17-2009, 04:22 PM
This thread bores me. :yawn:

X-Terminator
11-17-2009, 04:38 PM
Oh joy, another noob with diarrhea of the keyboard. Lucky us. :coffee:

Let's see what happens after a few personnel changes, perhaps inserting some starters on ST. If that's what the problem is, and the coverage units improve, then OK. If not, then he will probably be fired, last season notwithstanding.

Preacher
11-17-2009, 04:41 PM
I am shocked....


Isn't it actually Arians fault? :wink02:

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-17-2009, 04:41 PM
http://i49.tinypic.com/wupcap.jpg

:rofl:

HometownGal
11-17-2009, 04:59 PM
I am shocked....


Isn't it actually Arians fault? :wink02:

Bu, bu, but Arians. :chuckle:

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-17-2009, 05:10 PM
I am shocked....


Isn't it actually Arians fault? :wink02:

True, but you could argue that Arians lack of TD playcalling tired out Reed and didnt allow him to kickoff deep enough, thus removing the chance of a touchback. Furthermore, the fatigue on Reeds leg didnt allow him to cut back and make the tackle, so he just ran by Scott instead of pulling a hamstring.

You see.........if you really want to, you can blame Arians. In fact, I think there was a 2nd shooter on the grassy knoll and it was B.A. It also seems that Arians is responsible for global warming, the recession, "new" Coke, the high price of gas and Jon and Kate's marital problems.

Texasteel
11-17-2009, 05:15 PM
But lets not put any blame on those "other" guys out there for not maintaining their lanes, shedding blockers and making tackles. That would be silly.

You seem to forget, all that is Reed's fault.:wink02:

Texasteel
11-17-2009, 05:17 PM
True, but you could argue that Arians lack of TD playcalling tired out Reed and didnt allow him to kickoff deep enough, thus removing the chance of a touchback. Furthermore, the fatigue on Reeds leg didnt allow him to cut back and make the tackle, so he just ran by Scott instead of pulling a hamstring.

You see.........if you really want to, you can blame Arians. In fact, I think there was a 2nd shooter on the grassy knoll and it was B.A. It also seems that Arians is responsible for global warming, the recession, "new" Coke, the high price of gas and Jon and Kate's marital problems.

This is the most sensible argument against BA I have heard so far. :chuckle:

Nadroj 20
11-17-2009, 05:21 PM
True, but you could argue that Arians lack of TD playcalling tired out Reed and didnt allow him to kickoff deep enough, thus removing the chance of a touchback. Furthermore, the fatigue on Reeds leg didnt allow him to cut back and make the tackle, so he just ran by Scott instead of pulling a hamstring.

You see.........if you really want to, you can blame Arians. In fact, I think there was a 2nd shooter on the grassy knoll and it was B.A. It also seems that Arians is responsible for global warming, the recession, "new" Coke, the high price of gas and Jon and Kate's marital problems.

:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:


BA is such a bad person :chuckle:

SteelerEmpire
11-17-2009, 05:23 PM
Yea.... seems like we suffer from some of the same old things that we have in the recent past.....the same problems just keep repeating themselves over and over again as if some areas of the team suffer from attention deficit disorder.....
We had a problem with return coverage just a couple of years ago, with most of the same players and coaches, now its back ??
I remember reading somewhere that Chuck Noll's squad did not allow a TD return for NONE of the years in which the team made it to the playoffs..... thats around 10 years that we went an entire season without seeing any TD returns for a punt or kick off.... man....

OneForTheToe
11-17-2009, 06:14 PM
There would be little point to respond again. I'm thinking the time between taking a Viagra and the time you are supposed to call a physician, if it works too well, will exceeds the time our new friend will be around (not that I know personally, :wink02: )

joelsteed
11-17-2009, 07:18 PM
ahhhh yes.

cowher fired bobby april who was named ST coach of the year last year for the bills.

i always found it a bit strange how special teams were always supposed to be cowhers specialty, yet the steelers special teams generally sucked or were below average during his tenure.


When did Cowher fire Bobby April? Where did you get that from? Bobby April was offered an extension by Cowher but turned the job down to go back to his native New Orleans to take a position there.

joelsteed
11-17-2009, 07:22 PM
There would be little point to respond again. I'm thinking the time between taking a Viagra and the time you are supposed to call a physician, if it works too well, will exceeds the time our new friend will be around (not that I know personally, :wink02: )

ToeJam, I gave you way too much credit. It's quite obvious that you didn't finish school but I assumed it was college, not high school. I'm sure you're getting ready for work. I will stop by and order a McFlurry from you.

P.S. In your three sentences above, you made 4 grammatical mistakes. Can you identify them? Do you know the difference between a proper sentence and a run-on sentence?

OneForTheToe
11-17-2009, 07:35 PM
ToeJam, I gave you way too much credit. It's quite obvious that you didn't finish school but I assumed it was college, not high school. I'm sure you're getting ready for work. I will stop by and order a McFlurry from you.

P.S. In your three sentences above, you made 4 grammatical mistakes. Can you identify them? Do you know the difference between a proper sentence and a run-on sentence?

HMMMM ... last time I had such a mature conversation it was with my 5 year old nephew. He makes up names for people as well. Of course, his are better than yours.

No matter, I can certainly identify the poster who won't be here soon.

tony hipchest
11-17-2009, 07:50 PM
When did Cowher fire Bobby April? Where did you get that from? Bobby April was offered an extension by Cowher but turned the job down to go back to his native New Orleans to take a position there.i was thinking it was april responsible for the 2001 afcc game meltdown. maybe it was zook then....

joelsteed
11-17-2009, 08:01 PM
i was thinking it was april responsible for the 2001 afcc game meltdown. maybe it was zook then....


Both Bobby April and Ron Zook were excellent coaches. Bobby April was actually offered two jobs but took the NO position. Ron Zook left the Steelers and eventually become the head coach at UF.

Jay Hayes, brother of the former Steelers tight end, Jonathan Hayes was the special teams coach and got fired after the AFC championship game.

HometownGal
11-17-2009, 08:06 PM
ToeJam, I gave you way too much credit. It's quite obvious that you didn't finish school but I assumed it was college, not high school. I'm sure you're getting ready for work. I will stop by and order a McFlurry from you.

P.S. In your three sentences above, you made 4 grammatical mistakes. Can you identify them? Do you know the difference between a proper sentence and a run-on sentence?

OK - that's it. You were warned and you failed to heed the warning. :wave: bucktooth. :beaver:

tony hipchest
11-17-2009, 08:14 PM
Both Bobby April and Ron Zook were excellent coaches. Bobby April was actually offered two jobs but took the NO position. Ron Zook left the Steelers and eventually become the head coach at UF.

Jay Hayes, brother of the former Steelers tight end, Jonathan Hayes was the special teams coach and got fired after the AFC championship game.ah, thats right. he had a very short lived, non descript, 2-3 year stint with the steelers (other than taking the ax for that loss).

between gilbride, sherman, and hayes, cowher hit a rough patch there selecting coaches and coordinators.

EDIT- lol... talking to air is fun.... (i cant believe htg went "slim q cumber" on dat ass :beaver: :laughing: )

:wave:

fansince'76
11-17-2009, 08:38 PM
Where do these douchebags come from?

tony hipchest
11-17-2009, 09:47 PM
Where do these douchebags come from?the land of vinager and milk and honey?


Steelers Fever Forums Statistics
Threads: 37,423, Posts: 693,423, Members: 13,789
Welcome to our newest member, joelsteed


:laughing:

X-Terminator
11-17-2009, 11:24 PM
Lasted just over 5 hours before self-destructing - I think that's a new record! Congratulations, joelsteed, for your dubious distinction! Here's your gift:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/goodpain/Banhammer.jpg

Steelers & I
11-18-2009, 01:30 AM
When did Cowher fire Bobby April? Where did you get that from? Bobby April was offered an extension by Cowher but turned the job down to go back to his native New Orleans to take a position there.

Banned, lmao. I'll respond anyway. Cowher may not have fired Booby April but he did run him off in much the same manner as he did Ron Erhardt. I can recall several instances of seeing Cowher chewing out Bobby April's A$$ on the sideline. Cowher basically treated April like a little BEE-OTCH! Cowher, the fans, and April himself knew that his tenure with the Steelers was soon to be over.

Texasteel
11-18-2009, 03:53 AM
Lasted just over 5 hours before self-destructing - I think that's a new record! Congratulations, joelsteed, for your dubious distinction! Here's your gift:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/goodpain/Banhammer.jpg

The self destruction started with post #4. I think he could have gotten it done in less than 5 hours but he had to go to the bathroom a couple of times.

Kaeg
11-18-2009, 06:30 AM
WOW! In and out like a ball of fire! In possibly record time, too! I never saw it coming! :wave: (Hey, does anyone keep track of these records?) Hehehe

lamberts-lost-tooth
11-18-2009, 06:49 AM
At first I thought someone wanted to fire Legursky....and I was pissed!!!....then I saw it was Ligashesky....WHEW!:nervous:

Texasteel
11-18-2009, 06:55 AM
At first I thought someone wanted to fire Legursky....and I was pissed!!!....then I saw it was Ligashesky....WHEW!:nervous:

Naa, they won't get rid of him, but I have heard they plan on trying him at TE or WR.:chuckle:

Indo
11-18-2009, 10:10 AM
I saw this thread yesterday---didn't respond to it because it was pretty damn clear that he wasn't gonna make it thru the night...

Name-calling smack
Grammar smack
spelling smack


PLUS a warning about his douchiness...

not too smart, are ya joelsteed?

Indo
11-18-2009, 10:11 AM
BTW, Gonzo, that is some funny shtuff!

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-18-2009, 10:20 AM
BTW, Gonzo, that is some funny shtuff!

Thanks, I am here all week....try the veal and dont forget to tip your waitress. :tt:

BTW, special teams is such a tough gig to coach, because once the ball is snapped, its just utter chaos going on that anything can happen. I really believe that its 60% scheme, but 40% effort and motivation of the players. Gotta drill into those guys that every coverage tackle or return block is like their last.

steelerdave1969
11-18-2009, 10:35 AM
I think last year or the year before most likely that I was calling for this guys' job and I got pounded over it. Yeh last year wasnt bad, of course Berger being the Worst Ever Steelers punter that I can remember excluded. This year, I just cringe everytime the Kicking Teams all come out to do something.. Reed has killed us on short kickoffs since he has been in Pittsburgh but he is nicely accurate most of the time... but someone needs to give him a whippin' for not Knowing how to tackle someone or push them out of bounds.. the guy needs to give this partying up and pay more attention to detail.

HometownGal
11-18-2009, 11:31 AM
Reed has killed us on short kickoffs since he has been in Pittsburgh but he is nicely accurate most of the time... but someone needs to give him a whippin' for not Knowing how to tackle someone or push them out of bounds.. the guy needs to give this partying up and pay more attention to detail.

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=42157

Case closed.

SteelMember
11-18-2009, 11:45 AM
BTW, Gonzo, that is some funny shtuff!

I just love the creative words and spellings you guys come up with. shtuff. :chuckle:

A recent one used by HTG was titstick. Now, I don't know what that actually means, but it's funny none the less.

So how's this for usage HTG...

joelsteed was being a titstick, therefore he was banned.

Good? :hunch:

scsteeler
11-18-2009, 12:17 PM
No it wasn't, but you just contradicted your own point about it being the coach and not the players:

You're an idiot. How did I contradict my post? Gary Russell and Najeh Davenport was the kickoff returners and both are out of football a year later. You have to assume Ligashesky has the final say in the personnel matters, right?

Toe, apparently, the "No Child Left Behind" act, unfortunately, indeed, left you behind. You made a great point. Wait a minute, what was your point?

Do your read what you are writing before you post. Is it the coaches fault the guys miss tackles? Last Year was one of the best years for special teams coverage in a long time. All Through the Cowher years the special teams was sub par for the most part.

The_WARDen
11-18-2009, 12:31 PM
Do your read what you are writing before you post. Is it the coaches fault the guys miss tackles? Last Year was one of the best years for special teams coverage in a long time. All Through the Cowher years the special teams was sub par for the most part.

I'll play devil's advocate then...

Maybe the coaches stunk last year also and the players just played way above their heads cover up for coaches. Now they are playing back to their capabilities and the coaching is being exposed.

Why does it have to go one way?

scsteeler
11-18-2009, 12:43 PM
I'll play devil's advocate then...

Maybe the coaches stunk last year also and the players just played way above their heads cover up for coaches. Now they are playing back to their capabilities and the coaching is being exposed.

Why does it have to go one way?

On that point I can agree it does go both ways! But most only see it one way, they play good and coaching does not get any credit and they play bad and it is all in the coaching. You can't have the Ying without the Yang.

The_WARDen
11-18-2009, 12:47 PM
On that point I can agree it does go both ways! But most only see it one way, they play good and coaching does not get any credit and they play bad and it is all in the coaching. You can't have the Ying without the Yang.

I agree as someone once said, "Coaches coach and players play." At some point, they either need to get better players on ST or a new coaching strategy.

I really don't care which as long as the stupidity comes to an end.

scsteeler
11-18-2009, 12:55 PM
I agree as someone once said, "Coaches coach and players play." At some point, they either need to get better players on ST or a new coaching strategy.

I really don't care which as long as the stupidity comes to an end.



Yes you are so right! Some wanted the offensive line and coach to go last year and they are playing much better this year. If everything comes together in the playoffs no one will even mention Special Teams.

The_WARDen
11-18-2009, 01:43 PM
Yes you are so right! Some wanted the offensive line and coach to go last year and they are playing much better this year. If everything comes together in the playoffs no one will even mention Special Teams.

I was one of those calling for the Oline last year (and the previous one to be honest). Crow goes well with some Bar-B-Que sauce.

ricardisimo
11-18-2009, 07:02 PM
I'm not sure it really works that way with coaches. The opposite happens just as often... Belichick is an Łbergenius. Of course, it's a lot easier to look smart when Tom Brady is your QB. He wasn't so much of a genius in Cleveland, despite having a decent passer in Bernie Kosar.

As for Ligashesky, the stats I looked up seemed pretty convincing. Throughout his entire NFL career, 2008 was his lone bright spot, and really only on coverage; returns were so-so. What I find more telling is that both the Jags and Rams STs surged dramatically almost across the board after letting him go. Firing him appears to be the panacea that hiring him is not.

steelerchad
11-18-2009, 08:02 PM
I honestly think the coverage problems are more changes in personnel than coaching. The coverage was great last year and much improved over 2007. This year, awful. Coach stayed the same, but personnel changed significantly.
Seems to me that Patrick Bailey, Fox, and A. Harrison were making a ton of plays on coverage last year. Fox is still there, but I think the other 2 are gone and hurt?

ricardisimo
11-18-2009, 11:09 PM
I think the coaching has been consistent... consistently bad, even preceding Ligashesky's tenure (a point that has been raised already.) Last year's improvements had everything to do with the acquisition of Keyaron and the rather selfless contributions from James Harrison. The latter has been put to a halt - wisely, I'd say - and there's only so much Fox can do on his own.

It seems odd to me that everyone and their aunt can see that Arians is, simply put, not a great game manager. He has a good-and-one-day-great running back at his disposal, and no idea how to maximize him for the purposes of controlling the clock and spelling the D. He plays from behind even when he's ahead. Everyone can see that and is within their rights to point it out. No one would say "No, it's not Arians, it's the players."

And yet we're not supposed to point out the obvious with Ligashesky. How many botched coverages before we are allowed single him out? Look, obviously no coach would ever get fired if the logic from this thread were taken seriously and to its logical conclusion. Maybe it's the anarchist in me saying this, but it's just weird to see people instinctively protect the boss and attack the workers like I'm seeing done here.

One last thing: it's not as though the Special Teams are completely different athletes that we're talking about here. I see starters and back-ups on coverage every game. Logan, Reed and Sepulveda are just about the only exclusive ST-ers. Those same athletes whom you find lacking are the same studs who have won us a few pieces of hardware in the past four years.

madtowndrunkard
11-19-2009, 10:31 AM
Last year are coverage teams were among the best in the league. Our only problem on Special teams was our punter. Who gets the credit for how they played last year. Personally, if they him at the end year so be it, but ignoring half the facts to make a point doesn't solve anything. Also, I remeber losing games under Cowher because of our coverage teams. Whose fault was that? f

Among the best in the league? I think that's putting it on a little thick. We were above average maybe. Among the best...I don't think so.

HometownGal
11-19-2009, 10:38 AM
I think the coaching has been consistent... consistently bad, even preceding Ligashesky's tenure (a point that has been raised already.) Last year's improvements had everything to do with the acquisition of Keyaron and the rather selfless contributions from James Harrison. The latter has been put to a halt - wisely, I'd say - and there's only so much Fox can do on his own.

It seems odd to me that everyone and their aunt can see that Arians is, simply put, not a great game manager. He has a good-and-one-day-great running back at his disposal, and no idea how to maximize him for the purposes of controlling the clock and spelling the D. He plays from behind even when he's ahead. Everyone can see that and is within their rights to point it out. No one would say "No, it's not Arians, it's the players."

And yet we're not supposed to point out the obvious with Ligashesky. How many botched coverages before we are allowed single him out? Look, obviously no coach would ever get fired if the logic from this thread were taken seriously and to its logical conclusion. Maybe it's the anarchist in me saying this, but it's just weird to see people instinctively protect the boss and attack the workers like I'm seeing done here.

One last thing: it's not as though the Special Teams are completely different athletes that we're talking about here. I see starters and back-ups on coverage every game. Logan, Reed and Sepulveda are just about the only exclusive ST-ers. Those same athletes whom you find lacking are the same studs who have won us a few pieces of hardware in the past four years.

Get that resume in buddy. Time's a wastin'.

madtowndrunkard
11-19-2009, 10:48 AM
I agree as someone once said, "Coaches coach and players play." At some point, they either need to get better players on ST or a new coaching strategy.

I really don't care which as long as the stupidity comes to an end.


The NFL is a coaches league. Coaching means more in the NFL then in any sport.

Most NFL teams have similar talent as a whole. The Steelers won the SB last year and have posted impressive season records most of the last decade. yet we don't have the talent of other teams? Our winning is a product of good a good HC and good defensive coordinator. Our last two SB rings are a result of adding a very good QB to the mix.

ST's units are made up of backups on just about every team. The steelers have as much depth as a majority of the league. To say our back ups have significantly less talent then the rest of the leagues back ups is just laughable. The argument that our ST's players are not good is ridiculous. (with the exception of two players...the kicker and the return man)

Its no coincidence that certain ST's coaches consistently produce good ST's units....just as our ST's coach has consistently produced bad ST units.

sherlock
11-19-2009, 11:34 AM
At first I thought someone wanted to fire Legursky....and I was pissed!!!....then I saw it was Ligashesky....WHEW!:nervous:

That`s funny because I`ve been getting the two confused as well.
I don`t feel so stoopid now.
I`m not 100% sure if you were being serious though llt :chuckle:

43Hitman
11-19-2009, 01:44 PM
Get that resume in buddy. Time's a wastin'.

At least he isn't being an asswipe about his complaints like most.

HometownGal
11-19-2009, 02:01 PM
At least he isn't being an asswipe about his complaints like most.

True, but I get a chuckle out of these self-proclaimed experts who think they know more about the players, the team and the coaching staff than the FO and the HC. :laughing: If they were experts, we wouldn't be reading their posts on an internet BB.

MasterOfPuppets
11-19-2009, 02:46 PM
True, but I get a chuckle out of these self-proclaimed experts who think they know more about the players, the team and the coaching staff than the FO and the HC. :laughing: If they were experts, we wouldn't be reading their posts on an internet BB. but to be fair, FO's and HC's aren't always right either. i mean some "expert" in denver thought mitch berger was a good idea. had they asked any of us non experts about berger, we would have said, bad idea, he sucks ... doesn't take an expert to see results... :noidea: ...mangini is a paid expert, does that make him a good coach ? hell i could draw plays in the dirt that get the same results he gets...:chuckle:

ricardisimo
11-19-2009, 02:48 PM
True, but I get a chuckle out of these self-proclaimed experts who think they know more about the players, the team and the coaching staff than the FO and the HC. :laughing: If they were experts, we wouldn't be reading their posts on an internet BB.

True, but what's your point? Is there some other purpose to the forums (besides chewing our cud) that is being kept secret from me?

And again: why are the bosses inviolable? Is that always the case? What about in Cleveland? Do you think the head coach and front office there, and in Buffalo and Oakland have a clearer view of reality than me or my five-year-old son? I'm a modest guy, but I dare say that at least in those cases my son and I were right, and they were wrong.

I don't get it... why is the guy up top always right? What's with the hierarchy? Especially with a supposedly blue-collar group like Steelers fans, what gives?

HometownGal
11-19-2009, 03:44 PM
True, but what's your point? Is there some other purpose to the forums (besides chewing our cud) that is being kept secret from me?

And again: why are the bosses inviolable? Is that always the case? What about in Cleveland? Do you think the head coach and front office there, and in Buffalo and Oakland have a clearer view of reality than me or my five-year-old son? I'm a modest guy, but I dare say that at least in those cases my son and I were right, and they were wrong.

I don't get it... why is the guy up top always right? What's with the hierarchy? Especially with a supposedly blue-collar group like Steelers fans, what gives?

The forum is a board of OPINIONS and of course, you are rightfully entitled to yours, as am I and everyone else who posts here.

My point is that we can opine, Monday morning QB and rail decisions by the Steelers FO and coaches and plays made by the players all we want, but when all is said and done - they are the ones in charge and/or out there playing the game and as fans, we are mere observers.

Many Steelers fans, as long as I can remember, are extremely (and in most cases - unfairly) hard on their coaches and players and have that entitlement complex which I abhor. I'm not saying you are one of these fans and I respect your opinion. I just don't take well to people who try to come across as knowing more than those who are actually in a position to make decisions on what is best for the team based on their experience in those positions, as well as those who train, practice and actually get out there on the field.

ricardisimo
11-19-2009, 04:07 PM
The forum is a board of OPINIONS and of course, you are rightfully entitled to yours, as am I and everyone else who posts here.

My point is that we can opine, Monday morning QB and rail decisions by the Steelers FO and coaches and plays made by the players all we want, but when all is said and done - they are the ones in charge and/or out there playing the game and as fans, we are mere observers.

Many Steelers fans, as long as I can remember, are extremely (and in most cases - unfairly) hard on their coaches and players and have that entitlement complex which I abhor. I'm not saying you are one of these fans and I respect your opinion. I just don't take well to people who try to come across as knowing more than those who are actually in a position to make decisions on what is best for the team based on their experience in those positions, as well as those who train, practice and actually get out there on the field.

That's cool. Just for the record, I recall Tomlin specifically defending Ligashesky a year or so back, and saying that patience and continuity were more important to him than immediate results. I happen to think he was absolutely right to say that and to retain his services. That's the mind-set that has kept Pittsburgh largely in the win column since Noll was hired. I also happen to think that a year or so later it might be time to rethink Ligashesky's tenure. I have no problem supporting coaching decisions... when it's clear that they actually have a plan.

Patience is a virtue, but as Albert Einstein said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. We've seen Ligashesky's results in Jacksonville, in St. Louis and now here in Pittsburgh. We've also seen the results from firing Ligashesky at the previous two stops. Exactly what results is everyone expecting from Ligashesky spending more time here in Pittsburgh?

X-Terminator
11-19-2009, 04:49 PM
Among the best in the league? I think that's putting it on a little thick. We were above average maybe. Among the best...I don't think so.

The Steelers were #1 in the league on kick coverage last season, and were #2 in punt return coverage.

ricardisimo
11-20-2009, 01:45 AM
I don't want to beat this poor dog any more than it already has been, but I just watched the Bernard Scott return again, with my finger on the pause button. Here are the players on coverage for that one:


Ike Taylor
William Gay
Keyaron Fox
Stefan Logan
Patrick Bailey
Andre Frazier
Joe Burnett
Jeff Reed

... and three other guys I couldn't make out. The only point I want to make is once again that these are no slouches on coverage. These are good football players. The fact that they are all getting blocked into one another speaks to the scheme and the practicing.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-20-2009, 10:20 AM
but to be fair, FO's and HC's aren't always right either. i mean some "expert" in denver thought mitch berger was a good idea. had they asked any of us non experts about berger, we would have said, bad idea, he sucks ... doesn't take an expert to see results... :noidea: ...mangini is a paid expert, does that make him a good coach ? hell i could draw plays in the dirt that get the same results he gets...:chuckle:

True....and some in the FO thought Sean Mahan was the answer at center, but we come to find out that a lot of Tampa Bay fans said he was weak and got pushed around lots. :noidea:

While some alleged experts here were promoting a free agent center from Marshall U, 2 years ago who would likely go undrafted. What do they know???

I get it that its all opinions and some come off a bit more assertive than others in their opinions, without any supportive evidence. I also think there are some posters here that make some pretty good suggestions based upon their research and knowledge. (even if they sometimes lose a tooth) :wink:

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-20-2009, 10:24 AM
The Steelers were #1 in the league on kick coverage last season, and were #2 in punt return coverage.

And the rules for punt coverage have not changed at all........which is why I dont understand the problems in coverage and how you point to the coach suddenly not being able to coach punt coverage.

Kickoffs, I can see......because of the rule changes that eliminate wedge blocking. I can see rationale behind not being up to speed on the new kickoff return games, but not punt returns.

GridironWarrior
11-20-2009, 11:03 AM
I donít fire the ST coach is necessary. Itís all about the players and how they execute. I think they are just in a funk. To be honest I donít like having starters on special teams. But thatís just cause Iím afraid of injuries.

devilsdancefloor
11-21-2009, 05:11 PM
I don't want to beat this poor dog any more than it already has been, but I just watched the Bernard Scott return again, with my finger on the pause button. Here are the players on coverage for that one:


Ike Taylor
William Gay
Keyaron Fox
Stefan Logan
Patrick Bailey
Andre Frazier
Joe Burnett
Jeff Reed

... and three other guys I couldn't make out. The only point I want to make is once again that these are no slouches on coverage. These are good football players. The fact that they are all getting blocked into one another speaks to the scheme and the practicing.


So since your finger was on pause undoubtably you seen logans jersey go from a small to XXL. I really think we are doing a good job but a few "non" calls have bit us in the rear. I beleive it will work itself out in the long run.

ricardisimo
11-22-2009, 01:03 PM
Has anyone's opinion changed yet?

P.S. - For all the criticism he's getting from everyone, Logan has been the only guy even close to the returner on the last two runbacks.

HometownGal
11-22-2009, 01:26 PM
Has anyone's opinion changed yet?

P.S. - For all the criticism he's getting from everyone, Logan has been the only guy even close to the returner on the last two runbacks.

Nope. As I said in the Game Day thread - you can't make prime rib out of ground turkey.

It all comes down to execution and the guys on ST's coverage are missing tackles, overcompensating and simply are not executing.

43Hitman
11-22-2009, 01:31 PM
...

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 02:42 PM
So far as I can tell, this is the first peep (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/11/22/snap.judgments.week.11/index.html) of firing Ligashesky in the mainstream media (in other words, besides my lonely ranting in the forums.)

BlastFurnace
11-23-2009, 03:08 PM
Nope. As I said in the Game Day thread - you can't make prime rib out of ground turkey.

It all comes down to execution and the guys on ST's coverage are missing tackles, overcompensating and simply are not executing.

Logan and Crowe on ESPN 1250 are calling it a lack of effort. I agree with what they are saying. Logan said that some guys are out of condition on this team and that there were guys not hustling on ST.

I was at the game and some of these guys were just jogging down the field.

We have some fat cats on this team. Guys that aren't giving it 100% this season.

zsheik22
11-23-2009, 03:09 PM
There arent too many schemes for kick coverage guys... If people are running back kicks on you, someone isnt tackling. It's really all execution. You need to get down there and make that tackle. Maybe look at some film, see who's dogging it on the kicks and bring someone else in.



You need maniacs out there, people that want to take off heads. People that know they have to prove something to make the team.

Shoes
11-23-2009, 03:15 PM
Logan and Crowe on ESPN 1250 are calling it a lack of effort. I agree with what they are saying. Logan said that some guys are out of condition on this team and that there were guys not hustling on ST.

I was at the game and some of these guys were just jogging down the field.

We have some fat cats on this team. Guys that aren't giving it 100% this season.

I think Jeff Reed found Casey's Twinkie stash ....:chuckle:

zsheik22
11-23-2009, 03:17 PM
ANDY KATZENMOYER, WHERE ARE YOU?

TheWarDen86
11-23-2009, 03:19 PM
I don't care who the ST's Coordinator is. What I care about is whether or not he's obtained a damn cattle prod yet! :banging:

HawaiianSixRings
11-23-2009, 03:20 PM
So far as I can tell, this is the first peep (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/11/22/snap.judgments.week.11/index.html) of firing Ligashesky in the mainstream media (in other words, besides my lonely ranting in the forums.)


Here is one from the Post-Gazette.....



Random thoughts immediately following what might someday -- maybe today -- be remembered as the game that undid the Super Bowl champions:

* The Steelers got a huge break today when the super lowly Oakland Raiders beat the Cincinnati Bengals, who are in first place in the AFC North. But the Steelers may need more than that. Based on the way theyíre playing and the way theyíve consistently played down to their level of competition this season, the Steelers, who lost to the Kansas City Chiefs, 27-24, have to worry about making the playoffs. They fell to 6-4 with this loss. The Chiefs won for only the third time.

* Although the game was decided in overtime, it was lost on the first play when -- incredibly -- Jamaal Charles returned the opening kickoff 97 yards for a touchdown.

It was the fourth time a kickoff has been returned for a touchdown this season. It is almost inexplicable that such a talented team could fail so often in this one phase of the game.

I defended special teams coaches Bob Ligashesky and Amos Jones last week but I wonít do it this week. The players must perform but there is no excuse for such a low level of execution on kickoff coverage. The buck stops with the coaches.

But not just with Ligashesky and Jones. There was so much focus on the kick coverage this week that is had to fall into the domain of Mike Tomlin. Thatís what head coaches do when certain aspects of their team are in disarray. They go from being a supervisor to being hands-on.

Tomlin had to be tightly involved with what changes were made this week and the game preparation. Thatís his job. Ligashesky and Jones might take the fall for this at the end of the season, but Tomlin had to be extremely involved with all that went on and as much to blame as the assistants.

* Offensive coordinator Bruce Arians didnít exactly thumb his nose at the clamor for more running plays, but he continues to do plot the offense his way, which means lot and lots of passing.

That plan of attack allowed the Steelers to dominate the Chiefs offensively and Ben Roethlisberger was a large part of that. He completed 32 of 42 passes for 398 yards and three touchdowns.

But there was distinct downside to all that passing. Roethlisberger was intecepted twice, both times by linebacker Andy Studebaker and both led to scores. The first, early in the third quarter, gave the ball to the Chiefs on their own 38, from where they began a seven-play, 62-yard touchdown drive. The second, later in the quarter, was returned 94 yards to the Steelers' 8 and led to a field goal. Studebaker, a graduate of Division III Wheaton, was making his first NFL start.

Rashard Mendenhall carried 21 times for 80 yards, Willie Parker six times for 24 yards. The most crucial carry of the game did not go to Mendenhall or Parker but to Mewelde Moore. On a third and 2 in overtime, with Charlie Batch just in the game to replace Roethlisberger, who suffered an apparent head injury, Arians called Mooreís number and the play went for a 3-yard loss. The Steelers punted and never got the ball back.

* Although the Steelers dominated the Chiefs -- 515 total yards to 282 and 44 minutes of possession to 22 -- they had three chances to win the game in the final minutes and overtime and ended up punting on all three. Just like last week, when it looked like Roethlisberger would pull out another game in the fourth quarter, it again was not to be.

With 4:45 remaining the Steelers had the ball on their own 29. They got one first down but on a third and 7 from the 45, Roethlisberger was sacked.

They got the ball back with 1:47 remaining but again got one first down and had to punt. After Roethlisberger threw to Heath Miller for 5 yards on first down, he threw incomplete and then was sacked again. After not being sacked the entire game, he was sacked twice late in the fourth quarter.

The Steelers won the coin toss in overtime, got two first downs, one on Batchís first play -- a 17-yard pass to Santonio Holmes. But a screen was incomplete, Mendenhall ran for 8 and Moore lost 3 bringing on another punt.

* It was an ugly afternoon of football but the Steelers are still very much in the playoff hunt. Their four losses put them together with Jacksonville, Denver and Houston, which plays Monday, as four-loss teams. Indianapolis, Cincinnati, New England and San Diego have a better record than the Steelers.

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 03:56 PM
There arent too many schemes for kick coverage guys... If people are running back kicks on you, someone isnt tackling. It's really all execution. You need to get down there and make that tackle. Maybe look at some film, see who's dogging it on the kicks and bring someone else in.

You need maniacs out there, people that want to take off heads. People that know they have to prove something to make the team.

Yes and no. Clearly there have been missed tackles, but look at the Bernard Scott return for the Bengals. I would swear that not only did every Steeler get blocked into every other Steeler, but three steps into his return seven guys were already behind him. Those guys definitely hustled... they hustled their way right past him.

The other three and Reed were complete non-factors. Logan and Ike Taylor stayed with the play the whole way, and then wound up (you guessed it) blocking each other out of the play.

There are some fundamentals that the guys are lacking (but then who's putting them out on the field if they're not ready to play?) But a lot of this is also schematics and bad decisions. If we can't cover kicks to the returner, either kick it out the back of the end zone or out of bounds, or if depth is not the issue, definitely put Sepulveda out there.

Reed said his job was to bring the guy back inside... where he could continue his runback for a touchdown, and Tomlin confirmed that he did his job. That was the plan? What the hell kind of plan is that? In other words, these guys are in fact hustling and executing, they are just hustling and executing bad plans formulated by a guy who doesn't appear to know what he's doing.

BlastFurnace
11-23-2009, 04:00 PM
It's time to fire Lig. This is quite possibly the worst ST in league history.

steelreserve
11-23-2009, 04:07 PM
It's time to fire Lig. This is quite possibly the worst ST in league history.

Normally I might call that an exaggeration, but you know what, I think I agree with you. If a return man ran back four kicks for touchdowns in a season, much less five weeks, people would be calling him one of the most dangerous returners in the history of the game. If you're allowing it to happen against you that often, you ought to be among the worst.

meelanova
11-23-2009, 04:09 PM
*sigh* These kind of threads remind me why I dont post much. Us Steelers fans are spoiled. And we clutch our fists and stomp our feet when go wrong.

HawaiianSixRings
11-23-2009, 04:48 PM
Nope. As I said in the Game Day thread - you can't make prime rib out of ground turkey.

It all comes down to execution and the guys on ST's coverage are missing tackles, overcompensating and simply are not executing.


Sorry, Gal, but I cannot disagree with you more. The debacle on the ST are UNPRECEDENTED IN NFL HISTORY! Are you saying coaches are not important? Is Dick Lebeau not a good coordinator and in your own words "players tackle"? Why are the Steelers the only team that are having problems of this magnitude?

Special teams coaches ARE important. Great special team coaches makes a heck of a difference, regardless of what you think. Think back to the days of Joe Avezzano, Frank Ganz, etc.

You said, "you can't make prime rib out of ground turkey".......everyone else uses backups, we are only one of few times that has to put in our starters....and this is still not working. So when is enough for you? We lose another game? A few more returns for TD's on special teams?

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 04:49 PM
*sigh* These kind of threads remind me why I dont post much. Us Steelers fans are spoiled. And we clutch our fists and stomp our feet when go wrong.

I think you understand that these forums would get real old, real quick if all we did was cheerlead.

fansince'76
11-23-2009, 04:55 PM
I think you understand that these forums would get real old, real quick if all we did was cheerlead.

Oh yes, goodness knows the "fire (fill in the blank)," "cut (fill in the blank)," "trade (fill in the blank)," "bench (fill in the blank)" and "tar and feather (fill in the blank)" threads and posts never get old.

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 04:57 PM
Oh yes, goodness knows the "fire (fill in the blank)," "cut (fill in the blank)," "trade (fill in the blank)," "bench (fill in the blank)" and "tar and feather (fill in the blank)" threads and posts never get old.

And yet here we are...

HometownGal
11-23-2009, 05:05 PM
Here is one from the Post-Gazette.....



Random thoughts immediately following what might someday -- maybe today -- be remembered as the game that undid the Super Bowl champions:

* The Steelers got a huge break today when the super lowly Oakland Raiders beat the Cincinnati Bengals, who are in first place in the AFC North. But the Steelers may need more than that. Based on the way theyíre playing and the way theyíve consistently played down to their level of competition this season, the Steelers, who lost to the Kansas City Chiefs, 27-24, have to worry about making the playoffs. They fell to 6-4 with this loss. The Chiefs won for only the third time.

* Although the game was decided in overtime, it was lost on the first play when -- incredibly -- Jamaal Charles returned the opening kickoff 97 yards for a touchdown.

It was the fourth time a kickoff has been returned for a touchdown this season. It is almost inexplicable that such a talented team could fail so often in this one phase of the game.

I defended special teams coaches Bob Ligashesky and Amos Jones last week but I wonít do it this week. The players must perform but there is no excuse for such a low level of execution on kickoff coverage. The buck stops with the coaches.

But not just with Ligashesky and Jones. There was so much focus on the kick coverage this week that is had to fall into the domain of Mike Tomlin. Thatís what head coaches do when certain aspects of their team are in disarray. They go from being a supervisor to being hands-on.

Tomlin had to be tightly involved with what changes were made this week and the game preparation. Thatís his job. Ligashesky and Jones might take the fall for this at the end of the season, but Tomlin had to be extremely involved with all that went on and as much to blame as the assistants.

* Offensive coordinator Bruce Arians didnít exactly thumb his nose at the clamor for more running plays, but he continues to do plot the offense his way, which means lot and lots of passing.

That plan of attack allowed the Steelers to dominate the Chiefs offensively and Ben Roethlisberger was a large part of that. He completed 32 of 42 passes for 398 yards and three touchdowns.

But there was distinct downside to all that passing. Roethlisberger was intecepted twice, both times by linebacker Andy Studebaker and both led to scores. The first, early in the third quarter, gave the ball to the Chiefs on their own 38, from where they began a seven-play, 62-yard touchdown drive. The second, later in the quarter, was returned 94 yards to the Steelers' 8 and led to a field goal. Studebaker, a graduate of Division III Wheaton, was making his first NFL start.

Rashard Mendenhall carried 21 times for 80 yards, Willie Parker six times for 24 yards. The most crucial carry of the game did not go to Mendenhall or Parker but to Mewelde Moore. On a third and 2 in overtime, with Charlie Batch just in the game to replace Roethlisberger, who suffered an apparent head injury, Arians called Mooreís number and the play went for a 3-yard loss. The Steelers punted and never got the ball back.

* Although the Steelers dominated the Chiefs -- 515 total yards to 282 and 44 minutes of possession to 22 -- they had three chances to win the game in the final minutes and overtime and ended up punting on all three. Just like last week, when it looked like Roethlisberger would pull out another game in the fourth quarter, it again was not to be.

With 4:45 remaining the Steelers had the ball on their own 29. They got one first down but on a third and 7 from the 45, Roethlisberger was sacked.

They got the ball back with 1:47 remaining but again got one first down and had to punt. After Roethlisberger threw to Heath Miller for 5 yards on first down, he threw incomplete and then was sacked again. After not being sacked the entire game, he was sacked twice late in the fourth quarter.

The Steelers won the coin toss in overtime, got two first downs, one on Batchís first play -- a 17-yard pass to Santonio Holmes. But a screen was incomplete, Mendenhall ran for 8 and Moore lost 3 bringing on another punt.

* It was an ugly afternoon of football but the Steelers are still very much in the playoff hunt. Their four losses put them together with Jacksonville, Denver and Houston, which plays Monday, as four-loss teams. Indianapolis, Cincinnati, New England and San Diego have a better record than the Steelers.

Yes - all of those played into the Steelers loss, but . . .

STILL no mention of the Steelers D going soft (again) in the 4th Q and allowing the Chiefs to get back in and ultimately win the game. :doh::banging::doh:

BlastFurnace
11-23-2009, 05:07 PM
*sigh* These kind of threads remind me why I dont post much. Us Steelers fans are spoiled. And we clutch our fists and stomp our feet when go wrong.

Yes. I guess it's too much to expect the team not to set a league record in returns in a season. Shame on us.

HometownGal
11-23-2009, 05:35 PM
Sorry, Gal, but I cannot disagree with you more. The debacle on the ST are UNPRECEDENTED IN NFL HISTORY! Are you saying coaches are not important? Why are the Steelers the only team that are having problems of this magnitude?

Special teams coaches ARE important. Great special team coaches makes a heck of a difference, regardless of what you think. Think back to the days of Joe Avezzano, Frank Ganz, etc.

You said, "you can't make prime rib out of ground turkey".......everyone else uses backups, we are only one of few times that has to put in our starters....and this is still not working.

Whelp - guess we're going to have to respectfully agree to disagree. :drink:

Face it - our ST's coverage reeks and I'm not holding Ligashesky without some fault. Blame Ligashesky, blame Reed, blame Tomlin :blah::blah::blah: At some point, the players on the coverage unit who are directly responsible for making tackles have to be held responsible for their dismal play.

Is Dick Lebeau not a good coordinator and in your own words "players tackle"?

Don't put words in my mouth. I believe Dick Lebeau is the greatest DC in NFL history. However, considering that some fans are pointing the fickle finger of blame at Tomlin and Ligs for the bad play of ST's and BA for the O faltering at inopportune moments, I do have to ask - why isn't there ire directed against Papa Lebeau for the inconsistent play and letdown of the D in the 4th Q of every game we've lost (and which almost happened in the Lions game)? If a coach is to be held totally responsible for the play of his unit, as some of you are suggesting, maybe we should fire Dick Lebeau too (sounds freakin' ridiculous, doesn't it???). :doh:

So when is enough for you? We lose another game? A few more returns for TD's on special teams?

Maybe I'm just old-school and have a different mindset than some of you youngins' around here, but if the Steelers lose another game or lose out (God forbid) the rest of the season, I'm still going to love and support them just as much and am going to wake up the morning after a game thankful to be alive and feeling truly blessed that I support a franchise and a team who have given me (us) a 40+ year (give and take a couple of bad seasons) span of some totally awsesome teams and a winning tradition. Call me a black 'n gold Kool Aid drinker (that would taste nasty, huh? :chuckle:), a cheerleader - whatever, but I ride the wave called life and take the bad times along with the good.

HawaiianSixRings
11-23-2009, 05:53 PM
Whelp - guess we're going to have to respectfully agree to disagree. :drink:

Face it - our ST's coverage reeks and I'm not holding Ligashesky without some fault. Blame Ligashesky, blame Reed, blame Tomlin :blah::blah::blah: At some point, the players on the coverage unit who are directly responsible for making tackles have to be held responsible for their dismal play.

Glad we can agree on this one......



Don't put words in my mouth. I believe Dick Lebeau is the greatest DC in NFL history. However, considering that some fans are pointing the fickle finger of blame at Tomlin and Ligs for the bad play of ST's and BA for the O faltering at inopportune moments, I do have to ask - why isn't there ire directed against Papa Lebeau for the inconsistent play and letdown of the D in the 4th Q of every game we've lost (and which almost happened in the Lions game)? If a coach is to be held totally responsible for the play of his unit, as some of you are suggesting, maybe we should fire Dick Lebeau too (sounds freakin' ridiculous, doesn't it???). :doh:

Our beloved Dick Lebeau, will get into the HOF ( knock on wood ) because of his contribution to this great game as a DC. He's a great coach because of his game plans and his defense have always been near the top. As for this season, I have no complaints. Our defense is still one of the best in the league. So why should we want to fire Lebeau? Has anyone said that? My goodness, you're not comparing Bob Ligashesky ( never played in the NFL, got fired twice ) to our great Dick Lebeau are you?



Maybe I'm just old-school and have a different mindset than some of you youngins' around here, but if the Steelers lose another game or lose out (God forbid) the rest of the season, I'm still going to love and support them just as much and am going to wake up the morning after a game thankful to be alive and feeling truly blessed that I support a franchise and a team who have given me (us) a 40+ year (give and take a couple of bad seasons) span of some totally awsesome teams and a winning tradition. Call me a black 'n gold Kool Aid drinker (that would taste nasty, huh? :chuckle:), a cheerleader - whatever, but I ride the wave called life and take the bad times along with the good.

We all love our Steelers. Just because we complain and whine doesn't make us any less of a fan. It goes both ways - if you can compliment a coach, shouldn't you be able to reasonably criticize a coach? I love my Steelers and I feel like the luckiest fan in the world.....now, I wish I can say the same thing about my Pirates.....but I still love them as well. :)

tony hipchest
11-23-2009, 06:03 PM
Yes - all of those played into the Steelers loss, but . . .

STILL no mention of the Steelers D going soft (again) in the 4th Q and allowing the Chiefs to get back in and ultimately win the game. :doh::banging::doh:our defense is the most high energy unit in the nfl. one only needs to watch harrison, woodley, troy, clark, lay their body out and get after it on every single play (or watch ike taylor making tackles and running with the opponents fastest receiver).

steelers last 3 drives yesterday ended with punts. too many times this season the steelers think *pass-pass-pass-punt* is winding down the clock in the 4th quarter.

our defense needs a break and a breather in the 4th quarter (and OT), not rashard mendenhall. just because tomlin ran the wheels off willie, is no reason for the COACHES to treat mendenhall like a porcelain doll.

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 06:04 PM
Besides, upward pressure works in sports almost as well as it does in government. The revolt from below in DC and Cleveland might actually finally do what all of Snyder's and Lerner's money couldn't: bring winners into town.

It's our duty as fans, just as it is our duty as citizens, to demand more.

fansince'76
11-23-2009, 06:06 PM
our defense needs a break and a breather in the 4th quarter (and OT).

I could see this argument if our D had been on the field all day. It wasn't. The Chiefs had 22 minutes of TOP, we had 44.

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 06:11 PM
I could see this argument if our D had been on the field all day. It wasn't. The Chiefs had 22 minutes of TOP, we had 44.

Just think how little time they would have had if we were running the ball! :wink02:

fansince'76
11-23-2009, 06:14 PM
Just think how little time they would have had if we were running the ball! :wink02:

Good point - 3rd quarter of AFC Divisional game vs. San Diego, perhaps? :applaudit:

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 06:28 PM
Good point - 3rd quarter of AFC Divisional game vs. San Diego, perhaps? :applaudit:

Kind of, only I think the 27 seconds San Diego had were a bit too much. Certainly KC wouldn't have held the ball that long.

HometownGal
11-23-2009, 06:32 PM
It goes both ways - if you can compliment a coach, shouldn't you be able to reasonably criticize a coach? I love my Steelers and I feel like the luckiest fan in the world.....now, I wish I can say the same thing about my Pirates.....but I still love them as well. :)

Sure, I can appreciate constructive criticism, but most of the criticism around here the last couple of weeks has been horribly destructive, imho.

Just because we complain and whine doesn't make us any less of a fan.

When fans start calling for the heads of a Super Bowl winning coaching staff (who, for the most part, these same folks idolized last season) currently with a 6-4 record and still very much in the hunt for the playoffs, as well as damning them even when the team WINS, it starts smelling a bit like rotting flesh around here. If these people were Lions or Browns fans, they'd have taken a bridge by now. :doh:

tony hipchest
11-23-2009, 06:34 PM
I could see this argument if our D had been on the field all day. It wasn't. The Chiefs had 22 minutes of TOP, we had 44.timmons looked absolutely gassed in OT and to a lesser degree, so did ike taylor.

i believe both were playing special teams the whole day. it seemed like more than half of the chiefs time of possession came in the 4th quarter and OT alone, and that is when the cheifs are throwing the ball and we are spending a ton of time in coverage and rushing as opposed to defending the run while the clock slowly winds down.

HawaiianSixRings
11-23-2009, 06:35 PM
So far as I can tell, this is the first peep (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/11/22/snap.judgments.week.11/index.html) of firing Ligashesky in the mainstream media (in other words, besides my lonely ranting in the forums.)


Here is another one from The BeaverTimes.....



Monday November 23, 2009 12:13 AM
Call the Steelers what they are: Poorly coached.

The 2009 season is a replay of 2006, with laziness, sloppiness and smug self-belief resulting in unforgivable losses and, ultimately, a Super Bowl hangover, albeit one that took slightly longer to throb.

In 2006, the Steelers lost to putrid Oakland in Week 8 to drop to 2-5 and out of contention. It took until Week 11 this time, and while Sundayís overtime defeat at wretched Kansas City left the Steelers at 6-4, thereís no minimizing the damage it did to their playoff hopes, let alone their psyche.

Signs of decline have been there: Penalties, drops, unnecessary displays of negative emotion, inconsistency and carelessness. The offense canít find an identity. The defense stinks when Troy Polamalu canít play.

But special teams are a truly damning microcosm, especially the slapstick incompetence displayed on kickoff coverage.

Allowing four touchdowns on kickoff returns in the same season ó in FIVE GAMES! ó is something the worst high school teams donít do. Cutting Arnold Harrison and replacing him with Donovan Woods on kick coverage apparently didnít solve the problem, as if anyone thought it would.

Releasing Harrison was unfair and capricious. If fingers got pointed at anyone, it should have been special teams coach Bob Ligashesky. Harrison was 1/11th of the problem. Ligashesky oversees the problem. Ligashesky and his assistant, Amos Jones, should be fired.

But head coach Mike Tomlin should take a long look in the mirror, too. If he took personal responsibility for kick coverage this week, supervising it at practice and involving himself to the hilt, he failed. If Tomlin left it totally in the hands of Ligashesky and Jones, he was negligent.

Tomlin won a Super Bowl in his second season. But he doesnít know everything.

Allowing a kick-six in the gameís first 16 seconds was damaging beyond description. It put the Steelers in a deep psychological hole and gave the Chiefs hope. Donít give a 2-7 team hope. It was the one thing that couldnít happen, and it did. It had to be prevented, and it wasnít.

Advertisement The Steelers lose games they shouldnít. They struggle to win games that should be much easier. This season has seen them consistently play down to ó or below ó the level of the opposition. Thatís Tomlinís fault.

The defense, meanwhile, is a sham, a statistical fraud, all over the NFL leader board but unable to get key stops or takeaways and vulnerable to big plays at inopportune times. How does Chris Chambers turn a little flip from Matt Cassel into a 61-yard catch-and-run death sentence?

Steel Curtain? Saran Wrap Curtain, more like.

The drop in quality on defense during Polamaluís absences is frightening. In the five games that saw Polamalu not play at all, the Steelers got a grand total of three takeaways, including just one interception. They are 2-3 in those contests, including a drab 28-20 win at Detroit.

Does defensive coordinator Dick Lebeau dial down the aggressiveness when Polamalu is out? Perhaps it happens organically, with foes less frantic when Polamalu and his freelancing arenít a constant threat. Whatever the reason, it tastes vanilla.

Itís hard to pin much criticism on offensive coordinator Bruce Arians. The Steelers outgained Kansas City 515-282. The pass/run ratio was 60/40, not only acceptable but common. Some of Ariansí key calls are certainly head-scratchers, like that pitch to Mewelde Moore on third-and-2 in OT.

A team as talented as the Steelers loses to a team like Kansas City for one of two reasons: Bad luck or poor preparation.

The Steelers werenít that unlucky. Hang that loss on Tomlin. His honeymoon as Steelers coach is over.

fansince'76
11-23-2009, 06:36 PM
timmons looked absolutely gassed in OT and to a lesser degree, so did ike taylor.

Fair enough - I was forced to listen to a radio feed, so I didn't see the body language of the players.

St33lersguy
11-23-2009, 06:56 PM
And Arians and Lebeau. Lebeau's playcalling has been just as bad and his insistence to run the prevent b.s. is killing the team and he doesn't seem to care.

HawaiianSixRings
11-23-2009, 07:05 PM
When fans start calling for the heads of a Super Bowl winning coaching staff (who, for the most part, these same folks idolized last season) currently with a 6-4 record and still very much in the hunt for the playoffs, as well as damning them even when the team WINS, it starts smelling a bit like rotting flesh around here. If these people were Lions or Browns fans, they'd have taken a bridge by now. :doh:[/QUOTE]




I think any reasonable person could understand the frustrations with the special teams. Nobody is asking for the head of Dick Lebeau, Randy Fichtner, John Mitchell, Keith Butler or Ken Anderson. Everyone should be up to the same standards here. Simply put, the special teams is costing the team wins ( they should be 8-2, not 6-4 ). What's even more scary is that Tomlin has gone on the record and said he has no idea......ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!?

The special teams coach is typically the lowest man on the totem pole. Good ones move up coaches another unit. When John Harbaugh was hired as the head coach of the Ravens, it was the first time in NFL history that a ST coach went straight to becoming a head coach.

What baffles me is that Bob Ligashesky has an assistant. So we have two ST coaches. Everyone else seems to be okay. Why does it seem like we are the only ones having these problems? And we are giving up points on our special teams that the NFL has never seen before. Obviously, it's the coaching.

You can stick up for the ST all you want. But the tangible results are not in your favor. There are numbers, actual numbers that is downright horrifying. Last year is last year. We are talking about this year.

arge5809
11-24-2009, 09:26 AM
Win? Players credit.

Lose? Coaches fault.

Yawn.

Good call!!!


:thumbsup: :applaudit: :doh: :banging:

Rick5895
11-24-2009, 10:07 AM
our defense is the most high energy unit in the nfl. one only needs to watch harrison, woodley, troy, clark, lay their body out and get after it on every single play (or watch ike taylor making tackles and running with the opponents fastest receiver).

steelers last 3 drives yesterday ended with punts. too many times this season the steelers think *pass-pass-pass-punt* is winding down the clock in the 4th quarter.

our defense needs a break and a breather in the 4th quarter (and OT), not rashard mendenhall. just because tomlin ran the wheels off willie, is no reason for the COACHES to treat mendenhall like a porcelain doll.

I couldn't agree more with this statement, HTG our D does falter, I liken it to the fact they are getting a bit older and have had some key injuries. However, The O has to shoulder some blame on the D collapses in the 4th as well. They are not putting teams away. 7 second half points against KC is ridiculas and THAT WAS SET UP BY OUR DEFENSE.
Our ST are terrible, the worst I have ever seen in the NFL. Blame the players all you want, but the coaches have to shoulder there fair share of the blame. Ours should be replaced at seasons end, no use doing it mid season, that could be more damaging than helpful. IMO

brick
11-24-2009, 11:52 AM
And Arians and Lebeau. Lebeau's playcalling has been just as bad and his insistence to run the prevent b.s. is killing the team and he doesn't seem to care.
thank God mr rooney doesn't read these forums and make staff decisions based on these posts :coffee:

ricardisimo
11-24-2009, 03:36 PM
Ed Bouchette at the Post-Gazette - one of the more even-keeled reporters, certainly not given to hyperbole nor rumor-mongering - suggested in his latest chat that not only was Ligashesky not getting fired, but that several more ST players were likely to get canned, today or tomorrow most likely.

I think that's a shame, quite honestly. We have some talented youngsters who could be starting on half of the teams in the league, and we're cutting them because, quite possibly, their position coach doesn't know how to use them.

If I had to guess, I'd say Logan might be gone soon. Any other guesses?

ricardisimo
11-24-2009, 07:30 PM
Turns out it was Ratliff and Woods. I hope the guys they got (Boiman and Ivey) still have something left. Moving Woods up and then cutting him a week later doesn't look professional to me, for whatever it's worth.

MACH1
11-24-2009, 07:36 PM
Ed Bouchette at the Post-Gazette - one of the more even-keeled reporters, certainly not given to hyperbole nor rumor-mongering - suggested in his latest chat that not only was Ligashesky not getting fired, but that several more ST players were likely to get canned, today or tomorrow most likely.

I think that's a shame, quite honestly. We have some talented youngsters who could be starting on half of the teams in the league, and we're cutting them because, quite possibly, their position coach doesn't know how to use them.

If I had to guess, I'd say Logan might be gone soon. Any other guesses?

Fire Lig? Come on, you know its all about execution, not how their coached up. :rolleyes:

ricardisimo
11-24-2009, 07:38 PM
Execution? I didn't think they had the death penalty in PA.

MasterOfPuppets
11-24-2009, 07:41 PM
Execution? I didn't think they had the death penalty in PA.
HTG suggested executing a horse for not being thirsty ....:noidea:

HometownGal
11-24-2009, 08:49 PM
Fire Lig? Come on, you know its all about execution, not how their coached up. :rolleyes:

Saints be praised! I'm glad you're finally seeing the light. :drink: :thumbsup: :chuckle:

Those of you who even want to blame the hair sticking out of Ben's mole on the coaches (Fire (fill in the blank)_________________ ) aren't ever going to agree with those of us who feel the players need a swift kick in the ass to execute what they practice better and vice versa, so the snide little references really are moot.

MOP - :buttkick:

ricardisimo
11-24-2009, 08:54 PM
Once again, I'm stunned to see this many posts effectively blaming the workers, from what claims to be a "blue-collar, working class" fan base. Weird.

HometownGal
11-24-2009, 09:48 PM
Once again, I'm stunned to see this many posts effectively blaming the workers, from what claims to be a "blue-collar, working class" fan base. Weird.

Even us "blue collar working class" schmos can differentiate between the smell of :poop: and the scent of roses. :wink:

Let's put it this way and maybe some of you knee-jerkers will understand where some of us are coming from.

I was a paralegal for many moons and I was paid quite well to do a job. I wasn't a job hopper but worked for several firms through 23+ years and was never warned or fired for effort or job performance. Each firm had its own set of expectations and job requirements. In each of my positions, I was trained "their way" and I made sure I knew exactly what I was getting into early on. Though paralegals are degreed professionals, we were still considered part of the support staff, and though I reported to the head partner, I also had to report to the office manager. Most attorneys are no picnic to work with (hanging from the Empire State Buildling by my toenails would have been less stressful :chuckle:) but I viewed my job as a challenge and worked my ass off to not only gain the respect of the attorneys I was assigned to but to let them know that they made the right decision in hiring me through my hard work. I took a lot of pride in what I did and it showed in my work product - I wouldn't have had it any other way. I was hired as a "work bee" and if I hadn't performed up to their expectations and didn't have what it took, I would have been called to the carpet by my superiors and given the heave ho, no ifs, ands or buts. My superiors were chosen not only for their knowledge and expertise, but for their experience.

I liken my professional experience to some of the Steelers ST players. They know up front what is expected of them and if they don't want to put the effort into the job they were hired to do and are being paid a king's ransom to perform and simply aren't cutting the mustard, they need to either get with the program and put 150% into their practices and play or take a hike. If I hadn't performed my job to my superiors' expectations and was canned, I'd have had no one to blame but myself.

ricardisimo
11-24-2009, 10:03 PM
If we're going to get anecdotal, I'd like to bring up pretty much every Business Section news item of the past ten years. All of that bad news is the product of thievery and bad decisions at the top. None of it is lazy workers failing to execute.

HawaiianSixRings
11-24-2009, 11:43 PM
Turns out it was Ratliff and Woods. I hope the guys they got (Boiman and Ivey) still have something left. Moving Woods up and then cutting him a week later doesn't look professional to me, for whatever it's worth.


Couldn't agree with you more. This is, to say the least, DESPERATE. Cut Arnold Harrison, promote Woods. ( like anyone thought that would make a big difference ) Then cut Woods and bring two people on from other teams.

Hometown Gal keeps talking about players tackling and doing their jobs. But what are coaches for? Based on her argument, coaches should NEVER get fired.......this is looking real bad.

Again, must I remind you, our special teams debacle is unprecendented....UNPRECEDENTED!!!! WE ALREADY LOST TWO GAMES BECAUSE OF OUR SPECIAL TEAMS!!!!

HawaiianSixRings
11-24-2009, 11:45 PM
Even us "blue collar working class" schmos can differentiate between the smell of :poop: and the scent of roses. :wink:

Let's put it this way and maybe some of you knee-jerkers will understand where some of us are coming from.

I was a paralegal for many moons and I was paid quite well to do a job. I wasn't a job hopper but worked for several firms through 23+ years and was never warned or fired for effort or job performance. Each firm had its own set of expectations and job requirements. In each of my positions, I was trained "their way" and I made sure I knew exactly what I was getting into early on. Though paralegals are degreed professionals, we were still considered part of the support staff, and though I reported to the head partner, I also had to report to the office manager. Most attorneys are no picnic to work with (hanging from the Empire State Buildling by my toenails would have been less stressful :chuckle:) but I viewed my job as a challenge and worked my ass off to not only gain the respect of the attorneys I was assigned to but to let them know that they made the right decision in hiring me through my hard work. I took a lot of pride in what I did and it showed in my work product - I wouldn't have had it any other way. I was hired as a "work bee" and if I hadn't performed up to their expectations and didn't have what it took, I would have been called to the carpet by my superiors and given the heave ho, no ifs, ands or buts. My superiors were chosen not only for their knowledge and expertise, but for their experience.

I liken my professional experience to some of the Steelers ST players. They know up front what is expected of them and if they don't want to put the effort into the job they were hired to do and are being paid a king's ransom to perform and simply aren't cutting the mustard, they need to either get with the program and put 150% into their practices and play or take a hike. If I hadn't performed my job to my superiors' expectations and was canned, I'd have had no one to blame but myself.


I wonder how you would feel, if you were brought into a new company, and after one day, was canned because of your management's ineptitude. Do you think Donovan Woods got a fair deal? How about Arnold Harrison?

HawaiianSixRings
11-24-2009, 11:52 PM
8 STRAIGHT GAMES. I REPEAT 8 STRAIGHT GAMES THE SPECIAL TEAMS GIVING UP A RETURN FOR A TOUCHDOWN. NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL THIS HAS HAPPENED.

Not only are we giving up TD's but we are losing field position. During the last few years ( under the genius Hall of Famer coach Bob Ligashesky ), can you remember a block punt? Block field goal? Oh, I forgot. Our kickoff return game scared everyone in the NFL. Wait a minute. Who was our returners? They were so good that I forgot.

ricardisimo
11-25-2009, 12:01 AM
To be fair to Ligashesky, those eight straight are returns for TDs by the opposing teams... not just KO and punt returns for TDs. In other words, they include INT and fumble returns.

MasterOfPuppets
11-25-2009, 12:04 AM
8 STRAIGHT GAMES. I REPEAT 8 STRAIGHT GAMES THE SPECIAL TEAMS GIVING UP A RETURN FOR A TOUCHDOWN. NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL THIS HAS HAPPENED.

Not only are we giving up TD's but we are losing field position. During the last few years ( under the genius Hall of Famer coach Bob Ligashesky ), can you remember a block punt? Block field goal? Oh, I forgot. Our kickoff return game scared everyone in the NFL. Wait a minute. Who was our returners? They were so good that I forgot.
they've had 4 kickoffs returned not 8 ...:popcorn:

X-Terminator
11-25-2009, 12:07 AM
Couldn't agree with you more. This is, to say the least, DESPERATE. Cut Arnold Harrison, promote Woods. ( like anyone thought that would make a big difference ) Then cut Woods and bring two people on from other teams.

Hometown Gal keeps talking about players tackling and doing their jobs. But what are coaches for? Based on her argument, coaches should NEVER get fired.......this is looking real bad.

Again, must I remind you, our special teams debacle is unprecendented....UNPRECEDENTED!!!! WE ALREADY LOST TWO GAMES BECAUSE OF OUR SPECIAL TEAMS!!!!

I'd like for you to point out to me where HTG said or implied that coaches should never get fired. Because those words never, ever came out of her mouth (or off her keyboard, in this case). Her entire argument has been that coaches should NOT be the ones shouldering all of the blame whenever something goes wrong...that the players absolutely should bear their share of the responsibility as well. I thought she made that abundantly clear, but evidently you and several others have not been able to wrap your brains around it.

8 STRAIGHT GAMES. I REPEAT 8 STRAIGHT GAMES THE SPECIAL TEAMS GIVING UP A RETURN FOR A TOUCHDOWN. NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL THIS HAS HAPPENED.

Not only are we giving up TD's but we are losing field position. During the last few years ( under the genius Hall of Famer coach Bob Ligashesky ), can you remember a block punt? Block field goal? Oh, I forgot. Our kickoff return game scared everyone in the NFL. Wait a minute. Who was our returners? They were so good that I forgot.

If you're going to scream, yell and stomp your feet to make an argument, the least you can do is get your facts straight. The ST has NOT allowed a TD in 8 straight games. They have only allowed 4, which obviously is 4 too many. The TEAM has allowed a return TD in 8 straight games - 2 pick-6s and 2 fumble return TD along with the 4 KO return TDs - which is the NFL record.

And please...how many blocked punts and FGs are there in an NFL season? I mean, if we're going to use that as a barometer for ST coaches, then 95% of them would be fired for that reason alone. There are plenty of reasons to bash Ligashesky - that is not even close to being a good one.

ricardisimo
11-25-2009, 12:10 AM
And I believe that they did, in fact, have a blocked FG this season, in the opener, the very play that Troy initially got hurt, as I recall. Lot of hustle on that play, and kudos to Lig if he had anything to do with that.

I still think he should be fired.

X-Terminator
11-25-2009, 12:18 AM
And I believe that they did, in fact, have a blocked FG this season, in the opener, the very play that Troy initially got hurt, as I recall. Lot of hustle on that play, and kudos to Lig if he had anything to do with that.

I still think he should be fired.

Correct, and I had forgotten about that. In that situation, it's usually all effort on the players' part even though I'm sure Ligashesky has them practice it all the time.

I also agree that he should be fired. I didn't particularly like the hire from the beginning given his previous track record.

ricardisimo
11-25-2009, 12:22 AM
As for HTG, although you are right that she never said that coaches should never be fired - which would be a ridiculous claim, to be sure - she has stated both in this thread as in the Arians threads that the onus is on the players to execute or "take a hike". I'm assuming that means the first course of action is for players to be fired, before coaches.

I don't think that there is any calculus in place for such a thing. However, I'll go way back to the beginning of this thread: Aside from one area in one year - coverage, last year - Bob Ligashesky's career has been mediocre at best, and positively abysmal at other times, including this year. Furthermore, his firings from the Jags and Rams were followed immediately by relative Renaissances on the respective Special Teams.

X-Terminator
11-25-2009, 12:34 AM
As for HTG, although you are right that she never said that coaches should never be fired - a ridiculous claim to be sure - she has stated both in this thread as in the Arians threads that the onus is on the players to execute or "take a hike". I'm assuming that means the first course of action is for players to be fired, before coaches.

I don't think that there is any calculus in place for such a thing.

Why isn't there? Are you saying that it isn't the responsibility of the players to produce on the field, ice or court? That when they fail, it's always the coaches' fault and they're "just following orders?" Because that certainly seems to be the prevailing sentiment around here. You can make all of the coaching changes you want; it's STILL up to the grunts to get the job done, and if they don't, then their jobs are and should be in jeopardy. Coaches take way, WAY too much of the blame whenever something goes wrong, while the players, for the most part, get a free pass. I'm sorry, but that's wrong, and again, a large part of the point HTG is making. I believe Ligashesky should be canned, but I will not excuse the players' role in this debacle. Not one bit.

ricardisimo
11-25-2009, 12:53 AM
Dude... I'd like to think there are more options than just a) the coaches should always be fired; or b) the players should always be fired.

You may have noticed that the same people calling for Lig's head are NOT calling for Lebeau's, despite the 4th quarter debacles. Why is that? Well, for starters, one of those coaches has a proven track record that can carry him through the rough spots. Secondly, his unit is ranked first, despite everything. Ligashesky can make neither claim.

Anyhow, you should have noticed that the so-called "Always-fire-the-coaches" crowd are not, in fact, always asking for the coaches' heads. The color blindness and lack of depth perception in these forums is keeping these threads unbearably blurry. We've got to get past that. C'mon, people!! We're a team!

HawaiianSixRings
11-25-2009, 12:54 AM
Why isn't there? Are you saying that it isn't the responsibility of the players to produce on the field, ice or court? That when they fail, it's always the coaches' fault and they're "just following orders?" Because that certainly seems to be the prevailing sentiment around here. You can make all of the coaching changes you want; it's STILL up to the grunts to get the job done, and if they don't, then their jobs are and should be in jeopardy. Coaches take way, WAY too much of the blame whenever something goes wrong, while the players, for the most part, get a free pass. I'm sorry, but that's wrong, and again, a large part of the point HTG is making. I believe Ligashesky should be canned, but I will not excuse the players' role in this debacle. Not one bit.


Hold on Terminator. The thing is, we are all agreeing on the same point that we all think Ligashesky should get fired. Nobody is saying that the players are not at fault. Of course they are. But at some point, the coaches are accountable as well. In this case, our special teams have been horrible, no ifs and buts about this.

When Limas Sweed drops a pass, I'm pissed at him, not at Randy Fichtner. When Lamar Woodley overruns a play and misses a tackle, I don't get mad at Keith Butler or Dick Lebeau. However, in this case, it's obvious that the other team's special teams knows something that we dont. It's not luck or coincidence that our special teams have been horrible. I could live with one. Maybe two. But four!?!? And our season isn't even done yet!!!

Sorry, but the pain of Troy Brown running two touchdowns back on our special teams during the AFC championship game is still fresh in my mind. Jay Hayes was the only coach on the staff that was fired. I hope it will be the same this year.

HawaiianSixRings
11-25-2009, 01:05 AM
The special teams on the kickoff return has been abysmal. But the not so obvious one and i feel has been overlooked has been in other areas as well. I was in the very minority when Supelveda got drafed in 4th round. He won the Ray Guy award as the nation's best punter two years in a row. I know he's still young but why has he not asserted himself? He is nowhere near as one of the top punters.

I was giddy like a kid on Christmas eve when we got Stefan Logan. But when he's returning a kickoff or a punt return, I don't see any blockers. Seems like there are 3-4 people swarming all over him and he has nowhere to go. This year, I don't see any strengths in our special teams.

1st year, our ST was bad. 2nd year, our kickoff return defense was one of the best. However, our kickoff return and punt return was horrible. This year, we all know the special teams have cost us at least two games.

Imagine how much better we would be if our special teams were a strength, instead of a weakness. I remember screaming my ass off during kickoffs and seeing Jerry Olsavsky knock out a runner. Remember Orpheus Roye. After this year, I would love to get a great special teams coach. We need that swagger back!!!

rbryan
11-25-2009, 01:36 AM
Logan just doesn't look that fast to me anymore.....

His breakout runs are to the 40......but to be fair, he's done that often enough......better than what we've been used to so I'll live with that.....at least he's not fumbling

Where have you guys been......Stillers have been giving up KO returns from the days of Metcalfs baby Daddy all the way to MTV Cribbs. Suck it up and take it like man..... We still win way more than we lose when it happens.....lol

I'm going to go ahead and predict that we don't give up anymore and we get at least one to the house from here out......we're due

Rick5895
11-25-2009, 03:26 AM
Dude... I'd like to think there are more options than just a) the coaches should always be fired; or b) the players should always be fired.

You may have noticed that the same people calling for Lig's head are NOT calling for Lebeau's, despite the 4th quarter debacles. Why is that? Well, for starters, one of those coaches has a proven track record that can carry him through the rough spots. Secondly, his unit is ranked first, despite everything. Ligashesky can make neither claim.

Anyhow, you should have noticed that the so-called "Always-fire-the-coaches" crowd are not, in fact, always asking for the coaches' heads. The color blindness and lack of depth perception in these forums is keeping these threads unbearably blurry. We've got to get past that. C'mon, people!! We're a team!

The 4th Q "defensive meltdowns" could also have other factors like injuries, the O not moving the ball age creeping up etc (not excuses, just observations) But ST has players dedicated to them in the instance of kick cover maybe 6 or 7 plays a game. Giving up good yards or TD's is the fault of not only players, as HTG, states but also of coaches for not preparing them. There are a few players that stand out as in effective on kick off, Logan for one, the guy simply has no clue as to lane responsiblty or the ability to tackle, niether do some others. The players either arn't doing the job expected in those cases or the coaches aren't drilling them and preparing them. IT IS A COMBINATION OF BOTH, but the coach is being paid to get the players prepared, and clearly he is not doing that. IMO

supa_fly_steeler
11-25-2009, 03:42 AM
why would anyone want Lebeau fired that's just retarded after all he has done for us, also giving us the #1 ranked defence 3 straight years (Do People know how incredibly rare that is), people think we are invinsible we have to remember on the other line of the scrimmage there also also paid pro athletes, honestly who would fire probably the best defensive co-ordinator in the history of the NFL.

I just thank God every day that the Steelers have the Rooneys as the owners and Kolbert and Tomlin in there respective jobs.

WeegiesWarriors
11-25-2009, 05:32 AM
I didn't bother reading all the posts but you assholes on here actually defending Ligashesky are among the dumbest SOBs on this planet... boarderline mentally retarded. He should not be fired. He should be taken somewhere, beaten, and left for dead.

HometownGal
11-25-2009, 07:22 AM
I wonder how you would feel, if you were brought into a new company, and after one day, was canned because of your management's ineptitude. Do you think Donovan Woods got a fair deal? How about Arnold Harrison?

Nevermind. The point of my post went wayyyy over your head. :banging: :doh:

Texasteel
11-25-2009, 08:01 AM
I didn't bother reading all the posts but you assholes on here actually defending Ligashesky are among the dumbest SOBs on this planet... boarderline mentally retarded. He should not be fired. He should be taken somewhere, beaten, and left for dead.

I don't read all the post either, but if you can't disagree with someone without calling them assholes or SOBs, I would be reading anymore of yours. Welcome to the ignore button.

Texasteel
11-25-2009, 08:18 AM
I wonder how you would feel, if you were brought into a new company, and after one day, was canned because of your management's ineptitude. Do you think Donovan Woods got a fair deal? How about Arnold Harrison?

I know what I would feel. I would feel awful, but such is life. Woods and Harrison were treated fairly IMO. They were hired and then they were fired. There are no guarantees, not in this life.

markymarc
11-25-2009, 11:36 AM
Woods and Harrison were treated fairly IMO. They were hired and then they were fired. There are no guarantees, not in this life.

I see what you are trying to say but definitely have to disagree. Woods and Harrison were treated as scapegoats, nothing more and nothing less. The entire special teams unit is a debacle and yet Tomlin has only fired Woods, Harrison and Ratliff. Every single player on special teams should be looked at. I am not saying fire every special teams player, but you can't blame this debacle on just Ratliff, Woods and Harrison.

HometownGal
11-25-2009, 11:40 AM
I see what you are trying to say but definitely have to disagree. Woods and Harrison were treated as scapegoats, nothing more and nothing less. The entire special teams unit is a debacle and yet Tomlin has only fired Woods, Harrison and Ratliff. Every single player on special teams should be looked at. I am not saying fire every special teams player, but you can't blame this debacle on just Ratliff, Woods and Harrison.

I'm sure both Tomlin and Ligs reviewed multiple game films when making their decision to hand the pink slips to Woods, Harrison and Ratliff. Remember - we aren't privy to that detailed information. What totally sucks is that they held Ratliff on the roster and released Anthony Madison. :doh:

lamberts-lost-tooth
11-25-2009, 12:28 PM
I'm sure both Tomlin and Ligs reviewed multiple game films when making their decision to hand the pink slips to Woods, Harrison and Ratliff. Remember - we aren't privy to that detailed information. What totally sucks is that they held Ratliff on the roster and released Anthony Madison. :doh:

:thumbsup:

lamberts-lost-tooth
11-25-2009, 12:30 PM
I didn't bother reading all the posts but you assholes on here actually defending Ligashesky are among the dumbest SOBs on this planet... boarderline mentally retarded. He should not be fired. He should be taken somewhere, beaten, and left for dead.

Uh..yea.

Your days in this forum are going to be very short.
:wave:

markymarc
11-25-2009, 12:35 PM
What totally sucks is that they held Ratliff on the roster and released Anthony Madison. :doh:

Yea that move still really bothers me. I know they say that Madison was set to make 1.1 million this season if I remember correctly and we ended up keeping the cheaper option of the 2. Madison was our special teams ace and we are truly missing him right now.

Christian Snyder
11-25-2009, 12:37 PM
I didn't bother reading all the posts but you assholes on here actually defending Ligashesky are among the dumbest SOBs on this planet... boarderline mentally retarded. He should not be fired. He should be taken somewhere, beaten, and left for dead.
So, I'm one of the dumbest @$#'s on the planet? and I'm also mentally challenged? WOW, I didn't know that. Thanks for informing me of this.

revefsreleets
11-25-2009, 01:13 PM
Posted this in another thread, but realize it's a better fit here...

You know, we've been over this. I cannot believe that these break-downs are SIMPLY due to poor coaching. As has been pointed out, they are clearly focusing a lot of attention on this glaring hole in their game, and yet....repeated failure...

I used the HS football game I went to a month ago as a previous example. The coach for the local team is VERY good. They played a running team with an exceptionally talented back. The defense they were in was correct, they stacked the box, had the guys in proper position, but they STILL failed to stop the RB. He was too fast, too strong, and simply eluded tackles or broke them.

I don't think there is a special teams SCHEMATIC breakdown, we simply either lack the proper personnel, or those players are not executing their individual assignments. If we bring in the greatest ST coach in the history of the NFL, and the players cannot execute his plan, it will fail.

Again, even though many others here are so much more knowledgeable than I am about football, my assessment SEEMS to be shared by the coaching staff (who also apparently know less than the brain trust here), since they DID just cut a couple ST players and bring in a couple new ones.

Angus Burgher
11-25-2009, 02:08 PM
Do you guys think that they should try letting Sepulveda kick off? I know Reed has been our placekicker for years but he's been receiving a lot of criticism for his work on ST. The argument is that while he can kick it far enough, the ball does go high enough to give the rest of ST the time to get down the field. Do you think Sepulveda might have more luck with this? Also, Reed has received a lot of criticism for his inability to tackle... which is something Sepulveda definitely is better at. What do you think?

fansince'76
11-25-2009, 02:14 PM
Do you guys think that they should try letting Sepulveda kick off? I know Reed has been our placekicker for years but he's been receiving a lot of criticism for his work on ST. The argument is that while he can kick it far enough, the ball does go high enough to give the rest of ST the time to get down the field. Do you think Sepulveda might have more luck with this? Also, Reed has received a lot of criticism for his inability to tackle... which is something Sepulveda definitely is better at. What do you think?

If it works, why not? It really can't get any worse than it's been as of late.

MACH1
11-25-2009, 02:17 PM
Do you guys think that they should try letting Sepulveda kick off? I know Reed has been our placekicker for years but he's been receiving a lot of criticism for his work on ST. The argument is that while he can kick it far enough, the ball does go high enough to give the rest of ST the time to get down the field. Do you think Sepulveda might have more luck with this? Also, Reed has received a lot of criticism for his inability to tackle... which is something Sepulveda definitely is better at. What do you think?

Heck, if he could kick it through the endzone on a regular basis there wouldn't be many returns to worry about.

Angus Burgher
11-25-2009, 02:21 PM
Those are my thoughts. Bear in mind, I don't KNOW if it will work... but Sepulveda has been good at punting and can also make some bonecrushing tackles (see youtube for details) so I don't see what harm it could do at this point.

HawaiianSixRings
11-25-2009, 02:22 PM
Posted this in another thread, but realize it's a better fit here...

You know, we've been over this. I cannot believe that these break-downs are SIMPLY due to poor coaching. As has been pointed out, they are clearly focusing a lot of attention on this glaring hole in their game, and yet....repeated failure...

I used the HS football game I went to a month ago as a previous example. The coach for the local team is VERY good. They played a running team with an exceptionally talented back. The defense they were in was correct, they stacked the box, had the guys in proper position, but they STILL failed to stop the RB. He was too fast, too strong, and simply eluded tackles or broke them.

I don't think there is a special teams SCHEMATIC breakdown, we simply either lack the proper personnel, or those players are not executing their individual assignments. If we bring in the greatest ST coach in the history of the NFL, and the players cannot execute his plan, it will fail.

Again, even though many others here are so much more knowledgeable than I am about football, my assessment SEEMS to be shared by the coaching staff (who also apparently know less than the brain trust here), since they DID just cut a couple ST players and bring in a couple new ones.


Contrary to the title "Fire Ligashesky Now", I'm not sure if any good will come out of getting rid of Ligashesky during the season. When Joshua Cribbs ran the first one back, I was like, "Okay, he's one of the best." Then, after Percy Harvin runs one back, I was like, "Oh no, this may be a problem. " Then we started to have no namers running it back on us, I knew we were in deep trouble, especially when two of the TD's were the first special teams TD's in 10 years and 9 years, respectively. Cutting players, promoting another from the practice squad, cutting them again, searching the waiver wire and getting two more people......THIS SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING AT THIS TIME OF THE YEAR!!!! And I seriously doubt that these waiver wire pickups will make a significant difference. I mean, who are we fooling? If these players are so good, then why are they on the streets?

5 special teams TD in a season is unheard of and we are not even done yet. Good coaches makes a difference. Look at what Greg Williams is doing in New Orleans. Great special team coaches have made differences too. Before Ligashesky, I was pretty satisfied will Kevin Spencer. We never had any major breakdowns and I can't recall any glaring problems. He's doing a great job in Arizona.

You could kind of see this coming. Ligashesky was fired from St. Louis after their special teams was last in almost every category. Plus, Linehan was already interviewing people at the Senior Bowl so that should tell you he made his decision a long time ago before officially dismissing Ligashesky. And when Tomlin decided to hire an "assistant special teams coach" to assist Ligashesky, I guess that does bode well as a "shot of confidence". My money that Ligashesky will go at the end of the year.

devilsdancefloor
11-25-2009, 02:24 PM
Do you guys think that they should try letting Sepulveda kick off? I know Reed has been our placekicker for years but he's been receiving a lot of criticism for his work on ST. The argument is that while he can kick it far enough, the ball does go high enough to give the rest of ST the time to get down the field. Do you think Sepulveda might have more luck with this? Also, Reed has received a lot of criticism for his inability to tackle... which is something Sepulveda definitely is better at. What do you think?

it could hurt to try plus a few *cough*HTG *cough* probably wouldnt mind seeing more of Dsep

HawaiianSixRings
11-25-2009, 02:26 PM
Those are my thoughts. Bear in mind, I don't KNOW if it will work... but Sepulveda has been good at punting and can also make some bonecrushing tackles (see youtube for details) so I don't see what harm it could do at this point.

Our own Gary Anderson, one of the most accurate kickers in NFL history lasted a long time because of his accuracy. However, he lost a lot on his range so the Vikings had an extra kicker to do the kickoffs. ( It's hard to justify a spot on the roster for two kickers )

I"m sure if Supelveda could kick in the end zone, he would do the kickoffs.

revefsreleets
11-25-2009, 02:31 PM
I'm pretty sure the Steelers have thought of that and tried it...Sep punting and Sep kicking are two separate matters altogether...

Angus Burgher
11-25-2009, 02:32 PM
Our own Gary Anderson, one of the most accurate kickers in NFL history lasted a long time because of his accuracy. However, he lost a lot on his range so the Vikings had an extra kicker to do the kickoffs. ( It's hard to justify a spot on the roster for two kickers )

I"m sure if Supelveda could kick in the end zone, he would do the kickoffs.

This is the team that keeps throwing Willie Parker into the mix when it should be running Reshard Mendenhall on every drive. Don't always assume that being left out of the mix is due to a lack of talent.

revefsreleets
11-25-2009, 02:35 PM
This is the team that keeps throwing Willie Parker into the mix when it should be running Reshard Mendenhall on every drive. Don't always assume that being left out of the mix is due to a lack of talent.

I don't agree with this at all...there is nothing wrong with handing Parker a few carries, especially on plays more suited to his style.

I initially thought WP would get 75% to WP's 25%, but I'm thinking the inverse is fine...

Angus Burgher
11-25-2009, 02:52 PM
Yep, no one gets us to 3rd down better than Willie.

HawaiianSixRings
11-25-2009, 02:54 PM
I don't agree with this at all...there is nothing wrong with handing Parker a few carries, especially on plays more suited to his style.

I initially thought WP would get 75% to WP's 25%, but I'm thinking the inverse is fine...


I'm totally against using a RB for 25-30 carries a game. I remember when Tomlin got hired, he said he would run FWP until the "wheels came off". I cringed when I heard that. A running back's life after the age of 30 suffers a steep decline. I'd much prefer to have Mendenhall run 15-20 times a game and have FWP get his carries as well. It will keep both running backs fresh and extend the career of Mendenhall. ( I'm assuming FWP is gone at the end of the year )

However, next year we will have Tank back and hopefully Ike Redman can make the active roster. :tt:

Angus Burgher
11-25-2009, 03:09 PM
I've seen Willie waste so many downs in the past three seasons that I never need to see him play again. He's going to be gone at the end of the year for a reason. But let's keep beating that dead horse.

ricardisimo
11-25-2009, 03:58 PM
Willie hasn't been right for a while, but that's no reason to drop him. People resuscitate their careers all the time. It could happen this Sunday for Parker. I'm sure a lot of the people begging for all-Mendy, all-the-time now were probably cursing his name before this year's Chargers game.

But to segue this back to the topic at hand, some patience is called for, and continuity has value... to a point. There should be significant evidence that progress is being made. I don't think that Ligashesky's one area of statistical improvement in one year, balanced against four or five years of mediocrity or futility, justifies retaining him another day. Right now people can say "There's no benefit to firing him in the middle of the season." If there's another KO or punt return, those people will fall silent. I think this thread will be dead silent a day or two later, because he will have been fired.

By the way, sometimes patience is NOT called for. Look back over the years at the Steelers overall statistical rankings as far back as the NFL site will go. One year spikes upward dramatically in the wrong direction, and surprise, surprise, Noll fired the DC immediately... I'm not sure he did make it through the year (Brazil? Brazell? Some name like that). He was fired and should have been, probably even sooner than he was. Lig is another such case, we submit.

So say we all!

Texasteel
11-25-2009, 04:31 PM
I see what you are trying to say but definitely have to disagree. Woods and Harrison were treated as scapegoats, nothing more and nothing less. The entire special teams unit is a debacle and yet Tomlin has only fired Woods, Harrison and Ratliff. Every single player on special teams should be looked at. I am not saying fire every special teams player, but you can't blame this debacle on just Ratliff, Woods and Harrison.

Actually I do agree with you, but you can't fire the whole ST unit. I think the coaches carefully picked the players to be let go in accordance with who was available to replace them with. If this unit does not turn around quickly I would look for more changes. Tomlin know damn well this year is not lost yet.

rbryan
11-25-2009, 05:34 PM
Our own Gary Anderson, one of the most accurate kickers in NFL history lasted a long time because of his accuracy. However, he lost a lot on his range so the Vikings had an extra kicker to do the kickoffs. ( It's hard to justify a spot on the roster for two kickers )
I"m sure if Supelveda could kick in the end zone, he would do the kickoffs.

I've been saying for years we need a 2nd kicker that does nothing but kickoffs. Surely theres someone capable of kicking it thru the endzone every time. Who cares if he can kick field goals or tackle. Compare the value of having that as opposed to whatever the 53rd man on the roster right now is contributing.

HawaiianSixRings
11-25-2009, 07:06 PM
I've been saying for years we need a 2nd kicker that does nothing but kickoffs. Surely theres someone capable of kicking it thru the endzone every time. Who cares if he can kick field goals or tackle. Compare the value of having that as opposed to whatever the 53rd man on the roster right now is contributing.


Interesting....okay, if we could sign an extra kicker, who would you take off the active roster? Just curious........

RAYvens2752
11-25-2009, 07:54 PM
Lardarius Webb is gonna take one to the crib, the Steelers coverage team is horrendous.

fansince'76
11-25-2009, 07:55 PM
Lardarius Webb is gonna take one to the crib, the Steelers coverage team is horrendous.

Take it to the Blast Furnace (http://forums.steelersfever.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19). :coffee:

rbryan
11-25-2009, 10:37 PM
Interesting....okay, if we could sign an extra kicker, who would you take off the active roster? Just curious........

I'll leave that decision to someone smarter than me but I'd trade no more KO returns for whatever the 53rd man on the roster is bringing to the table right about now.

Maybe I'm not being realistic......is there even someone out there who can kick it thru the endzone every time?? I don't really know for sure, but I have to believe someone must be able to. If so its an option to consider.

ricardisimo
11-25-2009, 10:49 PM
What I don't understand is this: If Reed isn't kicking it out of the park (and he's not), then what does it matter that Sepulveda can't? If we're kicking it to the 10-yard line and not making tackles, why not trade that in for kicking it to the 15, but with the tackles being made?

Angus Burgher
11-26-2009, 12:31 AM
What I don't understand is this: If Reed isn't kicking it out of the park (and he's not), then what does it matter that Sepulveda can't? If we're kicking it to the 10-yard line and not making tackles, why not trade that in for kicking it to the 15, but with the tackles being made?

That was my logic. I mean, if there's a drastic difference (like Sepulveda only being able to kick it to the 50 or something) that'd be one thing... but I'd gladly trade 5 or 10 yards if it means no more kickoff TDs.

ricardisimo
11-26-2009, 12:52 AM
I can only imagine two problems:
He really can't do it at all, physically speaking;
Practicing kickoffs somehow seriously screws with his mechanics on punts.

Does either of these seem likely?

Texasteel
11-26-2009, 04:30 AM
IMO this thread has gotten completely out of hand. It would seem the poor play of the ST is Reeds fault because he doesn't kick the ball far enough, but the problem would be fixed if we just get someone else to kickoff. Even if he doesn't kick it as far as Reed does.

Who's on first?

markymarc
11-26-2009, 01:47 PM
Actually I do agree with you, but you can't fire the whole ST unit. I think the coaches carefully picked the players to be let go in accordance with who was available to replace them with. If this unit does not turn around quickly I would look for more changes. Tomlin know damn well this year is not lost yet.

I am with you on that. You definitely can't fire the whole special teams coverage unit! I do feel that Boiman and Ivy can help this unit. I mean it can't be much worse right :chuckle:

ricardisimo
11-26-2009, 05:14 PM
I mean it can't be much worse right :chuckle:

Famous last words, if ever there were.

BleedBlacknGold0
11-26-2009, 11:27 PM
I think this is a question that can be ignored even if the Steelers win out.

Special teams has killed them all year and even if they would win the Super Bowl I'd have to think this will need to be addressed at the end of the year or perhaps before.

I don't know much about Special Teams coaches but who would be out there that could step in and fix things?

ricardisimo
11-27-2009, 03:31 PM
I think this is a question that can be ignored even if the Steelers win out.

Special teams has killed them all year and even if they would win the Super Bowl I'd have to think this will need to be addressed at the end of the year or perhaps before.

I don't know much about Special Teams coaches but who would be out there that could step in and fix things?

I'm certain Colbert, Tomlin and the Roonies, like most teams, always have their eyes on the college ranks, cast-offs from other teams, former assistants, as well as promotions from within. Do you think they haven't even thought about what to do if anything happens to Lebeau?

I'm not sure what you mean by "even if" they win out. If they win out, firing Lig becomes less likely, true enough. But winning or not, one or two more KO or punt returns for TDs, especially in one of the Ravens games, and I think it unlikely he makes it another week.

Players are not stupid; they notice when there is a double-standard being applied with regards to them and management. Tomlin can only fire so many ST-ers before the players themselves start to point out the obvious. Tomlin can no longer bandy about words like "standards", "accountability" or his usual "level of expectation" line, and expect that it will resonate at all if he clearly doesn't actually mean it.

MasterOfPuppets
11-27-2009, 03:45 PM
you guys ever stop to think what the difference is between the suck coverage this year, and the number 1 coverage of last year is ? i'll give you a hint...its not the coach....your only as good as the tools you've got to work with.

Christian Snyder
11-27-2009, 04:08 PM
you guys ever stop to think what the difference is between the suck coverage this year, and the number 1 coverage of last year is ? i'll give you a hint...its not the coach....your only as good as the tools you've got to work with.
Thank you!!! All these Ligashesky haters need to realize that while he was ST's coach last year, we had the best ST's in football.

MACH1
11-27-2009, 04:08 PM
you guys ever stop to think what the difference is between the suck coverage this year, and the number 1 coverage of last year is ? i'll give you a hint...its not the coach....your only as good as the tools you've got to work with.

Personally I think it's a little of both.

ricardisimo
11-27-2009, 04:43 PM
The decision was made to yank some of the standouts from last year - most notably James Harrison - and I think there is some merit in that. We lost already lost Polamalu for extended time on field goal coverage in the first game of the year. That play perfectly exemplifies the conundrum facing Tomlin. On the one hand we won that game against Tennessee by that FG. On the other hand, we lost our next two, largely because of defensive lapses that suddenly disappeared once Troy was back.

Me, I'd rather go into OT of that game with Troy healthy, take our chances and win the next two against Chicago and Cincy. The other thing is that the entirety of the league is giving up fewer KO returns than us, and doing so largely with ST-ers, not with starters.

Finally, it cannot be stressed enough: coverage last year was Ligashesky sole bright spot in his whole career with three separate teams. Our kicking game was atrocious, although that was largely a function of Sepulveda's injury. Our own returns were even worse: we ranked 29th in kickoffs and dead last in punt returns... and that was with starters spread all over special teams, including 'Tone.

And again: his firings from the Jags and Rams immediately boosted their ST standings, almost across the board.

MasterOfPuppets
11-27-2009, 04:44 PM
Personally I think it's a little of both.
so you think he's coaching this group different than last years # 1 group ? there's not a whole hell of a lot to coverage. stay in your lanes, shed the blocks and make the tackle...:noidea:

MACH1
11-27-2009, 04:48 PM
so you think he's coaching this group different than last years # 1 group ? there's not a whole hell of a lot to coverage. stay in your lanes, shed the blocks and make the tackle...:noidea:

Then maybe you should do it. Couldn't be any worse.

2007 Ranking of 15th. Middle of the pack. He had one good year.

HawaiianSixRings
11-27-2009, 05:19 PM
Thank you!!! All these Ligashesky haters need to realize that while he was ST's coach last year, we had the best ST's in football.

Chritian, that's a very bold statement "we have the best ST's in football last year'".....can you back that up? In what category?! I like to see where you get your information from.

fansince'76
11-27-2009, 05:48 PM
Chritian, that's a very bold statement "we have the best ST's in football last year'".....can you back that up? In what category?! I like to see where you get your information from.

The Steelers finished 2008 with the AFC's No. 1 special teams in both kick-and punt-return defense.

In addition, the coverage groups were consistent in allowing 19.3 yards per kickoff return and 6.2 yards per punt return without surrendering a touchdown during the regular season.

Special teams’ finished the year as NFL's No. 1 kickoff defense and No. 4 in punt defense.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/175478-pittsburgh-steelers-a-profile-of-its-coaching-staff/show_full

Christian Snyder
11-27-2009, 06:40 PM
Chritian, that's a very bold statement "we have the best ST's in football last year'".....can you back that up? In what category?! I like to see where you get your information from.
Look's like fansince'76 just answered your question.

HawaiianSixRings
11-27-2009, 06:48 PM
Look's like fansince'76 just answered your question.


Christian, maybe you didn't know this. Special Teams is very broad and you have several categories under "special teams'. Just like on defense, when you make a claim about "best defense", statistically, you can be in the top 3 in rush defense, pass defense, and overall defense.

Under special teams, there is punt returns, punt coverage, kickoff returns, kickoff coverage, etc. So you made this bold claim that the Steelers had the best special teams last year. I'm still waiting for your number to back that up. Show me tangible numbers that shows us we are we #1 rated special teams.

Christian Snyder
11-27-2009, 06:52 PM
Christian, maybe you didn't know this. Special Teams is very broad and you have several categories under "special teams'. Just like on defense, when you make a claim about "best defense", statistically, you can be in the top 3 in rush defense, pass defense, and overall defense.

Under special teams, there is punt returns, punt coverage, kickoff returns, kickoff coverage, etc. So you made this bold claim that the Steelers had the best special teams last year. I'm still waiting for your number to back that up. Show me tangible numbers that shows us we are we #1 rated special teams.
Sorry,I meant to say the best kick return coverage... Now I see what you were saying.

HawaiianSixRings
11-27-2009, 06:58 PM
Look's like fansince'76 just answered your question.

And if that's all you got "we had the best special teams last year" ( even though you are incorrect ), you have a very weak argument. We are not talking about last year, we are talking about this year. The special teams have cost us at least 2 games, possibly 3. We could easily be 8-2, not scrambling right now and making roster moves to shore up our special teams.

So you were against Mark Whipple being fired? What about Ray Sherman? What about Jay Hayes? Based on your argument, are you saying coaches should never be fired?

By the way, the Steelers did fire Jay Hayes, their special teams coach, after TWO punt returns were taken to for TD's in the AFC championship game against the Patriots. We could possibly have 7 Super Bowl championships. Jay Hayes was fired ( although the special teams that year was nowhere near as bad as this year ). We brought in an awesome speical teams coach, probably the best the Steelers ever had. Thank God they don't use your logic "it's not the coaches fault"......

ricardisimo
11-27-2009, 07:01 PM
Christian, maybe you didn't know this. Special Teams is very broad and you have several categories under "special teams'. Just like on defense, when you make a claim about "best defense", statistically, you can be in the top 3 in rush defense, pass defense, and overall defense.

Under special teams, there is punt returns, punt coverage, kickoff returns, kickoff coverage, etc. So you made this bold claim that the Steelers had the best special teams last year. I'm still waiting for your number to back that up. Show me tangible numbers that shows us we are we #1 rated special teams.

Yeah, bringing up stats in Lig's defense is not really a very good idea. Coverage last year was his only area of improvement - ever. However, if you're going to bring that up in his defense, you also should mention that we were 29th last year in KO returns, and dead last in punt returns. That's probably the tenth time I've brought that up, but I will continue to do so every time someone boasts about what a great job he did last year.

Christian Snyder
11-27-2009, 07:03 PM
And if that's all you got "we had the best special teams last year" ( even though you are incorrect ), you have a very weak argument. We are not talking about last year, we are talking about this year. The special teams have cost us at least 2 games, possibly 3. We could easily be 8-2, not scrambling right now and making roster moves to shore up our special teams.

So you were against Mark Whipple being fired? What about Ray Sherman? What about Jay Hayes? Based on your argument, are you saying coaches should never be fired?

By the way, the Steelers did fire Jay Hayes, their special teams coach, after TWO punt returns were taken to for TD's in the AFC championship game against the Patriots. We could possibly have 7 Super Bowl championships. Jay Hayes was fired ( although the special teams that year was nowhere near as bad as this year ). We brought in an awesome speical teams coach, probably the best the Steelers ever had. Thank God they don't use your logic "it's not the coaches fault"......
Let me explain what I was saying. I meant to say how can Ligashesky suck if we had one of the best ST's coverage last year?

HawaiianSixRings
11-27-2009, 07:06 PM
Sorry,I meant to say the best kick return coverage... Now I see what you were saying.

Maybe it was just a typo. I think it's just a misunderstanding. Just to let you know, I've read your posts in the past and I have enjoyed them. Bottom line, even if we disagree, I always remind myself that we all love our Steelers and in the end, we just want what's best for them.

I'm actually a very patient person. ( believe it or not ) I've been a huge Pirates fan and we have set the record for the most losing seasons in pro sports but I still have hope that the new regime knows what they are doing.

Now, we will disagree with Ligashesky. But I hope I'm wrong and I hope that our speical teams will greatly improve. But logic tells me there is something much bigger than "the players". Having the special teams costing us one game is more than enough. At this time of the year, we should be concentrating on our red zone offense, preveting big plays on defense, minor tweaks here and there. Our special teams is just so bad and I have a feeliing it will cost us either getting us into the playoffs or a playoff game. I just have a bad feeling....

MACH1
11-27-2009, 07:10 PM
I found these....
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/misc/weekend/stories/020809dnspospecialteamslede.38f0fd2.html
The teams with the two top seeds in the playoffs, the Titans in the AFC and the New York Giants in the NFC, finished in the top four in special teams. Fellow division winners Carolina and San Diego also finished in the top 15, as did NFC wild cards Atlanta and Philadelphia.

But Super Bowl champion Pittsburgh finished 20th and NFC champion Arizona 28th. The Cardinals had the lowest-ranked special teams ever in a Super Bowl, and the Steelers had the second-worst special teams for a champion after the 2006 Indianapolis Colts.

The NFL's 32 teams are ranked in 22 kicking game categories and assigned points according to their standing in each category (1 for the best through 32 for the worst). This is a composite score for those categories:

Rank Team Points

1. Buffalo Bills 254
2. Tennessee Titans 268.5
3. Cleveland Browns 269
4. New York Giants 269.5
5. Oakland Raiders 274.5
6. San Francisco 49ers 283
7. New England Patriots 287
8. Chicago Bears 288.5
9. Tampa Bay Buccaneers 318.5
10 (tie). Atlanta Falcons 324
10 (tie). San Diego Chargers 324
12 (tie). Carolina Panthers 329.5
12 (tie). Philadelphia Eagles 329.5
14. New York Jets 351.5
15. Seattle Seahawks 369
16. Jacksonville Jaguars 376.5
17. St. Louis Rams 377
18. New Orleans Saints 381
19. Detroit Lions 381.5
20. Pittsburgh Steelers 382.5
21. Houston Texans 383
22. Baltimore Ravens 389
23. Washington Redskins 394
24. Cincinnati Bengals 421.5
25. Minnesota Vikings 422
26. Green Bay Packers 430
27. Dallas Cowboys 431.5
28. Arizona Cardinals 433.5
29. Kansas City Chiefs 456
30. Miami Dolphins 463.5
31. Denver Broncos 472.5
32. Indianapolis Colts 481

And....


The Verdict on the Pittsburgh Steelers: No More Excuses!

Contributor Written on November 22, 2009
Rackmultipart

In the wake of the Steelers absolutely inexcusable loss to the Kansas City Chiefs, a hard look at two problem areas is warranted.

So, no more sugar coating, no more pulling punches. Just the straight, blunt facts and the equally straight, blunt conclusions.

Special teams:

2006: Bob Ligashesky coaches the St. Louis Rams special teams. The Rams' special teams rank dead last in the NFL.

2007: Ligashesky is hired as the Steelers special teams coach. After an exceedingly inordinate amount of time and effort spent on special teams in the offseason and in training camp, the Steelers special teams rank next-to-last in the NFL.

2008: All of the work on special teams seemingly comes to fruition. The Steelers rank second in kickoff coverage and first in punt coverage, although both kickoff and punt return performance is still less than average.

2009: Through ten games, the Steelers special teams rank twenty-ninth (fourth worst) in kick coverage, and average on kick returns.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/295408-the-verdict-no-more-excuses?comment_id=1618833

HawaiianSixRings
11-27-2009, 07:11 PM
Let me explain what I was saying. I meant to say how can Ligashesky suck if we had one of the best ST's coverage last year?

Got it. I understand. Thanks for the clarification. Just to play devil's advocate, our kickoff retturn suck last year. I mean, they really sucked!!!! I'm pretty sure our punt returns sucked too.....and God knows how bad our punters were, although I'm willing to overlook it because of the injury to Selpulveda.

I think I would have a little more patience if Ligashesky didn't get fired from his last job as the Special Teams coach with the Rams. They were the WORST in football the year he got canned.

Let' s just hope you're right......we already made some roster moves and see how it goes this weekend.

HawaiianSixRings
11-27-2009, 07:28 PM
I found these....
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/misc/weekend/stories/020809dnspospecialteamslede.38f0fd2.html




And....


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/295408-the-verdict-no-more-excuses?comment_id=1618833


Great stuf MachOne! I really appreciate it. Some good, tangible numbers. At least this post will get rid of the "we have the best special teams in football last year".

By the way, if my memory serves me correct, didnt' we have major problems during Ligashesky's first year? I remember Reed was squib kicking a lot because we were having a ton of problems our first year. I even recall a reporter asking Tomlin about how bad the special teams were and he said something like, "Imagine how much worse it would be if we didnt' spend so much time on it".....

Christian Snyder
11-27-2009, 07:32 PM
Got it. I understand. Thanks for the clarification. Just to play devil's advocate, our kickoff retturn suck last year. I mean, they really sucked!!!! I'm pretty sure our punt returns sucked too.....and God knows how bad our punters were, although I'm willing to overlook it because of the injury to Selpulveda.

I think I would have a little more patience if Ligashesky didn't get fired from his last job as the Special Teams coach with the Rams. They were the WORST in football the year he got canned.

Let' s just hope you're right......we already made some roster moves and see how it goes this weekend.
I'm just sorry that I didn't clarify earlier.:grin:

HawaiianSixRings
11-28-2009, 12:05 AM
I'm just sorry that I didn't clarify earlier.:grin:

By the way, I love your Super Bowl logos...wish I can find a t-shirt like that....I'd but that in a heartbeat. Actually, one of my best friends took a trip to Pittsburgh. I gave him a ton of things to buy - any t-shirt that has "Sixburgh" on it, a baby blue Sidney Crosby penguins shirt, a flat top pirates hat, and a primanti brothers sandwhich....the latter, i'm not sure how he's going to keep it fresh on the way back to hawaii.

Christian Snyder
11-28-2009, 08:34 AM
By the way, I love your Super Bowl logos...wish I can find a t-shirt like that....I'd but that in a heartbeat. Actually, one of my best friends took a trip to Pittsburgh. I gave him a ton of things to buy - any t-shirt that has "Sixburgh" on it, a baby blue Sidney Crosby penguins shirt, a flat top pirates hat, and a primanti brothers sandwhich....the latter, i'm not sure how he's going to keep it fresh on the way back to hawaii.
Strangely, I found it in google photos.... I loved it and decided to use it.

ricardisimo
01-07-2010, 01:02 PM
It only took - how many pages of posts? - but clearly the Rooneys finally started reading what we had to say here. :wink02:

Do I hear corks a-poppin'?

X-Terminator
01-07-2010, 01:05 PM
Oh for crying out loud...

Special teams coach fired (http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=46345)

It just takes a few seconds of scanning to find a thread. Sheesh! :doh: