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mesaSteeler
11-22-2009, 09:02 PM
Arians playcalling and special teams doom Steelers in 27-24 loss
November 22, 7:03 PMPittsburgh Sports Examiner
Matt Pawlikowski
http://www.examiner.com/x-2703-Pittsburgh-Sports-Examiner~y2009m11d22-Arians-playcalling-and-special-teams-doom-Steelers-in--2724-loss

There were plenty of things that went wrong in the Steelers 27-24 loss to the Chiefs and now sitting at 6-4 overall, it has many wondering; do they have the intestinal fortitude to carry on into the playoffs from here?

With six games remaining, just two (Oakland and Cleveland) appear as potential wins, but after the debacle in Kansas City on Sunday, even those are questionable, although the Browns seem to be playing for the 2010 Draft after a loss to the lowly Lions.

So that game, you might pencil in a ‘W’, but the rest? It's anyone’s guess now, especially when you can't play situational football against a team that not only had won just two games prior to Sunday, but was without two of its best players.

Let’s start from the get-go as to what went wrong, which was a lot.

Special teams coach Bob Ligashesky obviously didn't have his unit ready for this one, after giving up the winning points against the Bengals via a kick return the previous week. Just 16 seconds into the contest, Jamaal Charles took it 97 yards to the house and the Chiefs had a 7-0 lead.

It was beyond pathetic.

How can a unit, where the head coach cuts one of its players to send a message earlier in the week, on the first play of the game allow it to happen for the fourth time in five weeks.

Still, the Steelers resiliency overcame it and for the remainder of the half and the game were dominate both on offense and defense and it looked like they were ready to put a nail in the Chiefs coffin. During regulation the Steelers gained 463 yards to the Chiefs 263.

Then came the blunders and maybe a little complacency. Yes, quarterback Ben Roethlisberger (who left the game with a possible concussion in overtime) had a passer rating over 100 and close to 400 yards in the air. But Roethlisberger also tossed two critical interceptions in the Red Zone.

Granted with the Steelers leading 17-7, the first one was a rare Heath Miller mistake, where he should have caught the ball and Andy Studebaker caught it. But the other where he tossed the ball into four Chiefs defenders was a lousy decision.

Which is the best way to describe offensive coordinator Bruce Arians play calling during the game, a bunch of lousy decisions.

Why has he abandoned the muddle huddle which had so much success in the Steelers five game win streak? Why doesn't he have designed plays to alleviate the pressure off Roethlisberger like a screen pass? And why has he abandoned the run when it comes to the Red Zone?

Thanks to his pass happy offensive scheme, the Steelers now lead the league in the longest period of time not having a running back get into the end-zone via a run play. Not exactly Steeler football.

You can also pinpoint the turning point in the game on Arians, once again his play-calling especially in the overtime session.

One could say Ike Taylor should have made the interception and if he does, the outcome may be different. But Arians call when the Steelers were driving and faced a third-and- two at the 35 probably cost the team the game.

The reason is simple. Rashard Mendenhall was toting the ball with confidence and his previous three runs on the Steelers possession in overtime, were seven, seven and eight yards.

Instead of running it down the gut and putting Jeff Reed into his field goal range, Arians decided in his wisdom to utilize a toss play to Mewelde Moore that resulted in a three yard loss.

Those three yards were the difference between Reed being in range and Reed being out of his range.

Arians only calls plays though. It's no secret he doesn't believe in three yards and a cloud of dust, instead relying on pass first. That passer though is the one in pads. The guy catching the ball, the line, the guy toting the ball - they were on the field. (Well it's no secret that a lot of Steeler Nation doesn't believe in Arians either. However it's still Tomlin's responsibility to fix this. - mesa)

And while there where bright spots, those players including Dick LeBeau’s top ranked defense, had too many blunders especially when it came to the Red Zone to overcome- meaning now instead of regaining a hold on the North Division, the Steelers will be fighting it out for a Wild Card slot at best.

psusteelers4life
11-22-2009, 09:23 PM
I totally agree with calling a few screen passes here and there. The Chiefs blitzes today were killin us and we still didnt do anything to try and slow it down. Screens and short passes thats called making adjustments in the middle of a game and in your game plan so you dont get Ben's head ripped off.

groundhogday
11-22-2009, 09:24 PM
Totally agree. Tomlin always preaches situational football but the Steelers have a hard time following the practice of it. Sometimes a plunge up the gut is necessary. How Mendenhall isn't getting 25 carries a game is beyond me. I think they don't use Muddle Huddle because Ben was calling to many run plays and Arians wants him throwing.

MACH1
11-22-2009, 09:58 PM
Thanks to his pass happy offensive scheme, the Steelers now lead the league in the longest period of time not having a running back get into the end-zone via a run play

That pretty much sums it up.

Rick5895
11-22-2009, 10:19 PM
ON Ben's 2nd pick, why in the hell do they go 5 recievers on 1st and goal from the 8?. Ben tried to force the ball to Ward who had at least 3 guys around him. Spaeth was running free at the 5.
But for crying out loud go under center with a RB behind you, so at least the D has to respect the run. They do this way too much, and there is no need for it. They have a decent run blocking O LINE and good RB's. These are the types of play call and formation calls from B.A that drives people nuts. He calls a good game until he hits the red zone, then I think he gets to cute and outsmarts himself trying to get the perfect play.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-22-2009, 10:44 PM
Same old Arians scapegoat thread. :rofl: But........we won a SB with him. :noidea:

CaliStillersFan
11-22-2009, 11:11 PM
Yes we won a SB with him, but our offense was ranked 21st+ last year and his play calling hasn't improved much. Play calling wasn't the cause of today's loss, but it sure didnt help either. Poor execution on the field is why we lost today. It just seems when we're in close games this year and we need one or two plays to put the game away, he seems to call some stupid plays which is why everyone comes down on him.

Sharkissle29
11-23-2009, 12:29 AM
Could not agree more

MasterOfPuppets
11-23-2009, 12:41 AM
geesh the offense put up around 500 yds today , what more do you want ?
:doh: ... where's the articles bashing lebeau and the fourth quarter defensive brain farts ? would the offense had gained more yardage if they ran more and passed less ? hell no. ..last week against the bengals i thought they should have ran more based on how crappy the passing game was going, and it looked like mendenhall could have found room to move the chains. ben had a good day today with the exception of pass blocking breaking down towards the 4th qt.

madtowndrunkard
11-23-2009, 12:46 AM
Our offense is so loaded with talent it isn't even funny.

How many 1st round picks do we have offensively? Ben, Mendy, Miller, Holmes...who am I forgetting? Not to mention Ward. We've got play makers on offense. When your players consistently perform below their ability then you have to look at the coach.

In this case you cannot honestly believe our offense had the 21st best players last year. The play calling is killing us and nothing will convince me otherwise. You cannot be one dimensional in the NFL and expect to win. You cannot ask your QB and your O-line to not make mistakes when the defense can pin their ears back and just come after you. Hasn't our defense proven that over the last decade or two? I mean come one people! What has been our defensive philosophy? We force offenses into become one dimensional....we shut their run down and force them to pass. When that happens our defense does it's job.

Arians has a fast car and he thinks he needs to drive it w/ the pedal to the floor. Problem is you won't get very far before you wreck driving like that. We need to slow things down. We need to balance our offense out. We should not be swinging for the fences as much as we do....we strike out way too much. This was the perfect game to grind it out. Don't put Ben in a position to fail....especially in a game like this against an opponent who can't stop the run. That game plan was even worse then last weeks and I didn't think that could happen.

Angus Burgher
11-23-2009, 12:51 AM
Agreed, the defense deserves to shoulder a lot of the blame here. If they'd play the game for 4 whole quarters instead of 2 and a 1/2, we probably would be 9-1 right now.

madtowndrunkard
11-23-2009, 12:57 AM
geesh the offense put up around 500 yds today , what more do you want ?
:doh: ... where's the articles bashing lebeau and the fourth quarter defensive brain farts ? would the offense had gained more yardage if they ran more and passed less ? hell no.


We scored 24 points and made many mistakes. Those mistakes are killing us. Yea we've got a QB who can throw it, that doesn't mean air it out every game. The play calling is begging for mistakes to happen. As I said before....if you drive a car w/ the pedal to the floor you'll eventually wreck....I don't care how good of a driver you are. Our play calling has set us up to fail. We have a good defense why not use it?

Establishing the run against the Chiefs would have meant less offensive yards...it also would have meant more points....and less time for the Chiefs offense to get on the field. It also means less chance to get sacked and throw INT's. It's called managing the game. Arians has no clue how to do it. The difference between winning and losing in the NFL is small. The team who makes the least mistakes is usually the team that wins. We were playing one of the worst run defenses in the league. There was never a better time to run the ball down another teams throats then today.

What I'm a little worried about is the fact that Tomlin went along with such a game plan. Last week's game plan was about as bad is gets....this game was more of the same. Tomlin is the HC, maybe he needs to start acting like it. He needs to reel in his OC....and fire his ST's coach.

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 01:43 AM
Tomlin is the HC, maybe he needs to start acting like it. He needs to reel in his OC....and fire his ST's coach.

Amen to that. Ligashesky has to go, that much is clear. One more run back, particularly in a divisional game like next week's, and he's gone. Tomlin preached patience last year with regards to Ligashesky, and it paid off. However, he also preaches accountability, and if you keep cutting quality back-ups like Arnold Harrison while protecting your assistants, people start to notice the double-standard.

As for Arians, he's a good OC, and the yards attest to that. He simply has no business and no aptitude whatsoever managing the games. He should not be calling plays. Ben probably, and Mike certainly would be better "Big Picture" guys with regards to the play-calling.

Those of you who are quick to trash the D in response to criticisms of Arians should remember a few things: Firstly, Lebeau's unit is 1st overall in the league, which is not a coinkydink. Secondly, Arians is effectively managing the game for the defense as well as the offense; pass-happy attacks tend to either score quickly or go three-and-out quickly, both of which have been happening. Running the ball more would spell the D for longer periods, keeping them fresher, longer. When your D is as old as ours that's not a minor point. Most of these guys are into their 30s, which is geriatric in football terms.

Once again, Arians knows how to move the ball, which is great. But his confidence in the pass should not be diminished by a few more running plays tossed in here and there. Quite the opposite, really. And Tomlin really needs to realize that there is a responsibility on the part of the offensive play-caller to the D and to the team as a whole... these are not different teams playing different games.

One last point: firing Ligashesky would definitely send a strong message to Arians to do it and do it right.

Spidey
11-23-2009, 07:24 AM
After all the crap that occurred, . . our best chance of claiming this victory depended on a simple plunge up the middle by Mendy on third and two, either bringing a fresh set of downs or bringing on jeff to hopefully nail a 50 odd yarder to win it.

Instead Offensive Mastermind Brucie calls a sweep!

and not to our two fastest backs, on no, Airhead is too clever for that, give it to MeMo!!

Shocking!!

HometownGal
11-23-2009, 07:43 AM
Agreed, the defense deserves to shoulder a lot of the blame here. If they'd play the game for 4 whole quarters instead of 2 and a 1/2, we probably would be 9-1 right now.

BINGO. Most people around here want to pin the blame on Tomlin, Arians, Ligashesky, but they aren't the ones playing complacent football when they have the lead. For whatever reason, our D hasn't been playing 60 minutes of football on a consistent basis and it has come back to bite them in the rear over and over again. Sure Arians call on the 3rd and 2 in OT wasn't what most of you wanted to see in that situation, but to be quite honest - we SHOULDN"T HAVE BEEN in OT to begin with. :banging: Other than the Bungles game, the Steelers O has been putting up 24-28 points on the board which is more than enough to win a football game and they put 24 up yesterday. The coaches didn't give up 27 points to a sandlot team - the Steelers D did.

Texasteel
11-23-2009, 07:46 AM
Same old Arians scapegoat thread. :rofl: But........we won a SB with him. :noidea:

And lets forget a defense that is giving out 4th qu. points like a busted slot machine.

Fire Haley
11-23-2009, 07:55 AM
A 10 point lead - you run the ball, bust them in the mouth by running the ball down their throats and they give up.

FacemeIke
11-23-2009, 07:59 AM
Arians has done much better this year and I think he's improving as an OC. He's kind of growing into the job. But, this was definately not one of his best games. The 3 and 2 sweep call to Moore in overtime is inexcusable. I'm sure he'd tell you that himself. I'm sure he will tell you that we should have ran more too, the Cheifs couldnt stop the run for most of the game. Mendy should have gotten 25 carries and Parker 10. I think that would have worked well. Everyone will have a bad game though including OCs.

HometownGal
11-23-2009, 08:07 AM
Arians has done much better this year and I think he's improving as an OC. He's kind of growing into the job. But, this was definately not one of his best games. The 3 and 2 sweep call to Moore in overtime is inexcusable. I'm sure he'd tell you that himself. I'm sure he will tell you that we should have ran more too, the Cheifs couldnt stop the run for most of the game. Mendy should have gotten 25 carries and Parker 10. I think that would have worked well. Everyone will have a bad game though including OCs.

Good post and I agree for the most part. :drink:

There is a rumor that Batch audibled on that call, but I've not read anything that backs it up. If it was Arians' call, it wasn't what most of us here would have called in that situation, but the bottom line (at least to me) is that we shouldn't have been in OT in the first place. Our D has been somewhat inconsistent this season - one week they kick ass and the next they squander leads. I know we are missing some key pieces to the puzzle with a couple of our key starters out, but the Steelers have always prided themselves on having good depth on the defensive unit. Plain and simple - the O put up 24 points which should have been more than enough to win that game yesterday. The D once again squandered away the lead in the 4th Q and that cannot continue to happen if the Steelers want to keep their playoff hopes alive.

Rick5895
11-23-2009, 08:46 AM
BINGO. Most people around here want to pin the blame on Tomlin, Arians, Ligashesky, but they aren't the ones playing complacent football when they have the lead. For whatever reason, our D hasn't been playing 60 minutes of football on a consistent basis and it has come back to bite them in the rear over and over again. Sure Arians call on the 3rd and 2 in OT wasn't what most of you wanted to see in that situation, but to be quite honest - we SHOULDN"T HAVE BEEN in OT to begin with. :banging: Other than the Bungles game, the Steelers O has been putting up 24-28 points on the board which is more than enough to win a football game and they put 24 up yesterday. The coaches didn't give up 27 points to a sandlot team - the Steelers D did.

You are absolutely right HTG, the D, was horrible in the 4th quarter. However as you have pointed out in the past, this is a team game and sometimes the O needs to carry the day. The D has carried this team for a few years and carried them into the superbowl last year. The D has struggled this season, the O needs to pick it up. Especially in light of our ST failures. Sometimes, you need to score more than 24 against bad teams to win. We spotted KC 7 because of a ST problem, again. The D gave up 2 TD's and 2 fg, one of the FG on a short field after a red zone turnover and return to our 8. ( 10 point swing) IMO 24 points when you have 500 yards of O is not good enough. We should have had 40 thus making the poor coverage in the 4th a non factor.

Dino 6 Rings
11-23-2009, 08:51 AM
This one isn't Arians fault.

24-17

Chiefs 3rd and 9 from their own 10 yard line with 8:35 left in the game.
3rd and 9 at KC 10 (Shotgun) M.Cassel pass deep middle to L.Long to KC 40 for 30 yards (R.Clark).

HometownGal
11-23-2009, 09:03 AM
You are absolutely right HTG, the D, was horrible in the 4th quarter. However as you have pointed out in the past, this is a team game and sometimes the O needs to carry the day. The D has carried this team for a few years and carried them into the superbowl last year. The D has struggled this season, the O needs to pick it up. Especially in light of our ST failures. Sometimes, you need to score more than 24 against bad teams to win. We spotted KC 7 because of a ST problem, again. The D gave up 2 TD's and 2 fg, one of the FG on a short field after a red zone turnover and return to our 8. ( 10 point swing) IMO 24 points when you have 500 yards of O is not good enough. We should have had 40 thus making the poor coverage in the 4th a non factor.

I'm not saying at all that the O (and partially the coaches) shouldn't shoulder a bit of the blame for this loss and I do maintain that the entire team should equally take their spot in front of the dartboard, but it seems most people around here are putting the blame solely on the coaches and I don't feel that is just or fair in this scenario. Our D :poop: the bed (and the floor) in the 4th Q again which I believe was the catalyst in the Steelers loss yesterday. They let Cassel and the Chiefs O back into the game - and OT to boot - when we had them just about nailed to the wall at the half. Very few people seem to want to acknowledge that our D just plain stunk in the 2nd half of that game - particularly in the 4th Q. That is my point.

revefsreleets
11-23-2009, 09:19 AM
We ran the ball 30 times. Mendy 21, Parker 6, Wallace 1, and Moore twice.

It's not like we abandoned the run entirely.

And for the same old people with the same old tired arguments, please, please, PLEASE stop!

You want the no-huddle? OK...but how much do you think we are going to actually run out of that?

And you want more running? Why didn't Ben audible more often to the run? It's his offense. He has input. He's able to look over the defense and adjust his call at the LOS.

The blocking was sub-par two weeks in a row. Ben held the ball a little long a few times again. Ben's 2 INT's were bad, and the second one KILLED us. The defense gave up several HUGE long plays, something they almost never do.

Yes, Arians made some bad calls. He definitely had a few situations where i think we should have run the ball. But that is NOT what lost the game. We lost because:

A) Another ST TD
B) INT #1. We were at mid-field, they picked off the pass and 7 plays later they score on a 21 yard TD pass.
C) INT #2. We were at LEAST going to score 3, and instead Ben is hit as he throws, they return it 94 yards and score a FG. 6 point swing.
D) 2 plays in the 3rd, back to back, 30 yard completion followed by a 47 yard completion, TD results at the end of that drive.

7 points form the ST
TO results in 7 points
TO results in 6 point swing
2 HUGE pass plays results in a TD

24 points

Texasteel
11-23-2009, 09:21 AM
After all the crap that occurred, . . our best chance of claiming this victory depended on a simple plunge up the middle by Mendy on third and two, either bringing a fresh set of downs or bringing on jeff to hopefully nail a 50 odd yarder to win it.

Instead Offensive Mastermind Brucie calls a sweep!

and not to our two fastest backs, on no, Airhead is too clever for that, give it to MeMo!!

Shocking!!

After all the crap, our best chance for victory was for the defense to hold the lowly Chiefs. In fact this is the 3rd team we had pined against to wall and the defense let them back in.

The offense has played well at times and poorly at time, but it seems we have been going into the 4th quarter thinking, "OMG do we have enough points." You can not totally pin that on the offense, and to pin this loss on one play,,,, I don't think so.

AGAIN,,, If there has ever been a complete team loss, this is it. No one person (BA) lost this game.

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 10:48 AM
Once again, the 4th quarter collapses are not completely unrelated to Arians' poor game management. These are quality players (and 1st overall in the league), but they are old men. Keeping them off the field longer with the run would benefit them greatly in the 4th quarters of games this year.

Rick5895
11-23-2009, 11:05 AM
I'm not saying at all that the O (and partially the coaches) shouldn't shoulder a bit of the blame for this loss and I do maintain that the entire team should equally take their spot in front of the dartboard, but it seems most people around here are putting the blame solely on the coaches and I don't feel that is just or fair in this scenario. Our D :poop: the bed (and the floor) in the 4th Q again which I believe was the catalyst in the Steelers loss yesterday. They let Cassel and the Chiefs O back into the game - and OT to boot - when we had them just about nailed to the wall at the half. Very few people seem to want to acknowledge that our D just plain stunk in the 2nd half of that game - particularly in the 4th Q. That is my point.

YOur point is well taken and I to am at a loss as to what is happening with ou D late in games. But here is an interesting little nugget of info, Our maligned Defense has only allowed 11 TD in 10 games this season. We have allowed almost as many return ( KR, Int. FBL) Td's . Gives you something to think abut eh?

Michael Keller
11-23-2009, 12:13 PM
You guys are knocking yourselves out trying to figure out what the problem is . Some times the answer is simple .. Bruce Arians is an incredbility incompetent offensive coordinator . It happens in every profession why not the Pittsburgh Steelers . Do not look for the answer to come from Arians. Look for Tomlin . The spot light is on him and Colburn and Art Rooney.

revefsreleets
11-23-2009, 01:01 PM
I love you guys! Even in the face of facts that 100% REFUTE it, you still cling to the sorry lazy excuse of blaming Arians!

Comedy Gold!

AllD
11-23-2009, 03:43 PM
It's Pres. Bush's fault.

Need4Sweed
11-23-2009, 05:28 PM
ON Ben's 2nd pick, why in the hell do they go 5 recievers on 1st and goal from the 8?. Ben tried to force the ball to Ward who had at least 3 guys around him. Spaeth was running free at the 5.
But for crying out loud go under center with a RB behind you, so at least the D has to respect the run. They do this way too much, and there is no need for it. They have a decent run blocking O LINE and good RB's. These are the types of play call and formation calls from B.A that drives people nuts. He calls a good game until he hits the red zone, then I think he gets to cute and outsmarts himself trying to get the perfect play.

Amen...i've seen this set tooo many times in the red zone. As soon as i saw that formation on 1st n goal from the 8, i screamed B.A. you dumb S.O.B...i knew something horrible was going to happen. I mean, you sold out to the pass with 5 wides wtf with no threat of the run. This is typical unfortunately of the types of play calls we are getting in the red zone...pathetic.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-23-2009, 05:31 PM
It's Pres. Bush's fault.

Yeah, but he wont get fooled again!!!

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ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 06:10 PM
It's Pres. Bush's fault.

He is the Decider, after all.

rich4eagle
11-23-2009, 06:33 PM
Pretty sad thread......Offensive strategy is fine........

Choke coaching again by Tomlinson is not acceptable

Reed's play is unacceptable.......HE SHOULD NEVER BE ON THE FIELD OTHER THAN FG's and as soon as possible never ever

The disgusting call on fourth down in overtime was a call of a loser

let's hope that stops

HometownGal
11-23-2009, 06:39 PM
Once again, the 4th quarter collapses are not completely unrelated to Arians' poor game management. These are quality players (and 1st overall in the league), but they are old men. Keeping them off the field longer with the run would benefit them greatly in the 4th quarters of games this year.

OMFG - this doesn't even merit a response. :jawdrop: :shake02: :doh:

ricardisimo
11-23-2009, 07:15 PM
Wow! I got the jawdrop, the shakehead and the D'Oh! I rule.

MasterOfPuppets
11-23-2009, 07:21 PM
Pretty sad thread......Offensive strategy is fine........

Choke coaching again by Tomlinson is not acceptable

Reed's play is unacceptable.......HE SHOULD NEVER BE ON THE FIELD OTHER THAN FG's and as soon as possible never ever

The disgusting call on fourth down in overtime was a call of a loser

let's hope that stops
i hope your this guy...

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7055/mrmiyagi.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/mrmiyagi.jpg/)

otherwise you look pretty foolish not knowing the coaches name .....:chuckle:

HometownGal
11-23-2009, 08:54 PM
Wow! I got the jawdrop, the shakehead and the D'Oh! I rule.

Nahhhh. You would definitely rule if you got the :kick:, the :fingers:, the :bat:, the :flipoff:, the :upyours:, the :countdown:, the :moon:, the :jerkit:, the :bash: or the :smashy:

:chuckle::thumbsup::chuckle:

tony hipchest
11-23-2009, 09:17 PM
otherwise you look pretty foolish not knowing the coaches name .....:chuckle:in the past 2 days polamalu is a linebacker and kevin "rooster" cogburn is the teams GM, so nothing would suprise me. :hunch:

i hope "the duke" can get it figured out. :noidea:

Preacher
11-24-2009, 03:15 AM
YOur point is well taken and I to am at a loss as to what is happening with ou D late in games. But here is an interesting little nugget of info, Our maligned Defense has only allowed 11 TD in 10 games this season. We have allowed almost as many return ( KR, Int. FBL) Td's . Gives you something to think abut eh?

Yes, but now look at how many POINTS the defense has given up in the 4th quarter. Give you something else to think about eh?

Fourth Quarter touchdowns are game-killers.

Rick5895
11-24-2009, 05:59 AM
Yes, but now look at how many POINTS the defense has given up in the 4th quarter. Give you something else to think about eh?

Fourth Quarter touchdowns are game-killers.

Absolutely, lots to think about but my question is this. Would the D appear to be falling apart in the 4th if we didn't let teams hang around with all those return td's and overall sloppy play?

It seems to me when you let inferior teams hang around , it gives them the confidence they can beat you and then 1 missed tackle here, 1 missed FG there, 1 pic gets a team right back in the game or gives them a victory.

When we play these tight games against teams we should be by 21 this will happen. I read a quote by Harrison this morning, he says the team isn't playing as a team, people are not steppin up, and they better get it fixed.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-24-2009, 04:50 PM
Interesting comment from Bouchette in his chat today. I know we fans all speculate the current offensive philosophy as being "balanced" or "passing based", but this is what a Steelers beat writer says.....


Ed Bouchette: Because Bruce Arians believes more in the passing game than he does the running game. Simple fact.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1016063-66.stm#ixzz0XouOZVOd

Believe43
11-24-2009, 07:11 PM
I seem to notice that the offense performs so much better with Big Ben calling the plays and not Arians. I would like to see what Mularkey could do with the talent on offense now.

devilsdancefloor
11-24-2009, 10:40 PM
I seem to notice that the offense performs so much better with Big Ben calling the plays and not Arians. I would like to see what Mularkey could do with the talent on offense now.

ok i would like to know how in the world you know who is calling the plays? Does the one who calls the plays glow? Do you have a radio helmet? Im at a loss how you guys know who calls the plays. Please let me in on it so i can impress my 12 yr old son!

ricardisimo
11-24-2009, 10:57 PM
No-huddle is Ben (or, conceivably, one of the other players). You're not allowed to use the headsets after the huddle has broken, and Ben is not looking at the sidelines in the no-huddle. That's how we know. Let me know how impressed your son is by this.

GridironWarrior
11-25-2009, 12:26 AM
Interesting comment from Bouchette in his chat today. I know we fans all speculate the current offensive philosophy as being "balanced" or "passing based", but this is what a Steelers beat writer says.....


Ed Bouchette: Because Bruce Arians believes more in the passing game than he does the running game. Simple fact.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1016063-66.stm#ixzz0XouOZVOd

That is a problem. Tomlin needs to stop this. A good running game kills the clock and lets your D rest. Didn't Troy last year say their D isn't built for being on the field for long stretches?

Shea
11-25-2009, 12:46 AM
That is a problem. Tomlin needs to stop this. A good running game kills the clock and lets your D rest. Didn't Troy last year say their D isn't built for being on the field for long stretches?

I didn't get to watch the game, but according to statistics that I've seen after the fact, the time of possesion was clearly and heavily in favor of the Steelers.

Can't put my finger on what is going on with the Steelers D this year since I rarely get to watch a game compared to the last handful of years, but I believe it's beyond your stated theory.

Something else is going on, beyond injuries to key defensive starters. Just don't know what it is yet......

Rick5895
11-25-2009, 03:55 AM
I decided to check into our 4th Q production offensively (because I think that has something to do with the defensive lapses which i will get to )
We have scored 54 points, 14 of which were as a result of defensive TD's (vikings)
We have scored a grand total of 3 offensive TD's (pathetic)
We have been shutout 3 times (chi, cinci were we had double digit leads, and DETROIT) and held to 3 points 3 times
The td against KC was set up by our D
Our most productive 4th was against Denver (14) because we apparently had a killer instinct and consequently had our best rushing game.

These facts can not be ignored, we simply play not to lose on O and the lack of production means we are not extending drives, which keeps the D on the field longer in the 4th. Our D is not playing to the standards set last season but they are still pretty damn good, allowing only 11 td's in 10 games.
The play selection needs to get better, especially in the 4 th Q. IMO

Boomerang
11-25-2009, 04:47 AM
We sometimes need a little more runto give our D a decent rest before they hit the field again.I too like the no huddle when Ben wants to up the pace.

Texasteel
11-25-2009, 05:12 AM
The time of position in all four losses was in the favor of the Steelers

KC / 44:07-- 22.25
Cincy 1 / 34.42-- 25.18
Cincy 2 / 30:08-- 29:08
Chicago / 30:26-- 29:35

Yet it is our defense that is wearing down at the end of the games. Sorry I'm not buying it.
I love our defense as much as anyone, most around here would tell you more, but I am not going to try an whitewash the fact that they are not doing the job, particularly in the 4th Qu., by blaming the OC.

revefsreleets
11-25-2009, 08:58 AM
Again, I'm confused on a few issues.

So we were playing not to win, but to avoid losing.......and we did that by passing too much? Huh?

Also, I get that Arians is a pass-first OC...and that some of you don't like that. But are you suggesting the Steelers weren't aware of that when they hired him? Retained his services year after year? They brought in a pass-first guy but they didn't really WANT a pass-first guy but they keep him on year after year even though they....um...don't really want him?

It's very difficult to follow the "scapegoat logic" exhibited in many of these threads...

BlastFurnace
11-25-2009, 09:11 AM
The time of position in all four losses was in the favor of the Steelers

KC / 44:07-- 22.25
Cincy 1 / 34.42-- 25.18
Cincy 2 / 30:08-- 29:08
Chicago / 30:26-- 29:35

Yet it is our defense that is wearing down at the end of the games. Sorry I'm not buying it.
I love our defense as much as anyone, most around here would tell you more, but I am not going to try an whitewash the fact that they are not doing the job, particularly in the 4th Qu., by blaming the OC.

The problems this year has been the ST and the Defense.

24 points was enough to beat the Chiefs and the defense collapsed in the 4th QTR and OT

revefsreleets
11-25-2009, 09:29 AM
It would have been at least 30 but we self-destructed twice (and it probably should have been more like 40)...and, I'm sorry, with our defense playing how they normally play, if THIS Steelers team scores 30 points, they SHOULD be able to play 1000 games and wind up 1000-0.

Texasteel
11-25-2009, 04:41 PM
The problems this year has been the ST and the Defense.

24 points was enough to beat the Chiefs and the defense collapsed in the 4th QTR and OT

Believe me, I'm not forgetting the ST. Right now I wish we could take the foot out of football.

Jmat
11-25-2009, 05:15 PM
OMFG - this doesn't even merit a response. :jawdrop: :shake02: :doh:

Then why did you respond?

cubanstogie
11-25-2009, 05:53 PM
I see nothing wrong with pass first as long as we are somewhat balanced. Pass to set up the run. I like Arians, sure he has made some questionable calls but we don't have a go to play to pick up short yardage, run or pass. I hated the toss to Moore on 3rd and 2, but if we had an imcomplete pass people would be questioning that as well. This offense is moving the ball, its just we can't convert short yardage or goal line worth crap. Ben has to take some responsibility for pics as well. We have a lot of problems this year, mainly in the redzone but Arians has been progressively improving over the last couple of years to blame him is over reacting IMO. We don't have the 3 and outs people used to moan about. I would like to see a RB behind Ben in the red zone though. But what do I know.

cubanstogie
11-25-2009, 05:59 PM
A 10 point lead - you run the ball, bust them in the mouth by running the ball down their throats and they give up.

I agree there, I didn't see the first drive of the second half but couldn't believe Ben threw a pic. You have to be careful with the ball when you are dominating. Don't give momentum to a crappy team. Besides the call with Moore, I don't see why Arians called a bad game. 2 pics and a special team TD is tough to overcome I don't care if Don Coryell was the OC.

revefsreleets
11-25-2009, 06:44 PM
Just as a reminder, we gave up some late TD's earlier this year that resulted in losses, and the predominate thoughts of this board were that we abandoned the pass too early and "were playing not to lose" by running the ball too much.

It can't be both ways...

Ricco Suavez
11-25-2009, 10:15 PM
Lets stroll down memory lane to a home playoff game a few years ago against the Jacksonville Jaguars. After a horrible first half where Ben completes more passes to the other team than his own, we stage a wonderful comeback and take the lead. We have the ball in the closing minutes of the game where a key first down will close the contest. While the offense was passing all over the place in the comeback we suddenly go run, run, run. We punt they score end of game. I was furious, instead of trying to get a first down, we went conservative and ultimately paid for it.I wanted to hang Arians by his toes. I was so quick to give Ben a free pass on his awful first half yet I was ready to crucify Arians. My point is this, there is no way us as fans all going to be happy, hell, there was a lot of fans unhappy last year. You don't believe me look back at some of last years posts. Idiots calling for Ben's benching and playing Leftwich. We do not have a specific problem with the defense or offense, we have meltdowns. We are right now our own worst enemy. If this team can get healthy, eliminate glaring mistakes (or at the very least cut them down) and we can right the ship in time for the playoffs, we can be a very dangerous team. As far as getting rid of coaches, I will buy maybe letting our ST go but with the Rooneys track record I would not bet on it. For whats its worth I said two years ago that we were moving away from a run first team, with the talent we have at the skill positions I cannot see it any other way.:tt:

ricardisimo
11-25-2009, 10:33 PM
Just as a reminder, we gave up some late TD's earlier this year that resulted in losses, and the predominate thoughts of this board were that we abandoned the pass too early and "were playing not to lose" by running the ball too much.

It can't be both ways...

Predominant? I sincerely doubt that. Secondly, if it's a completely different set of people complaining this time (as I suspect) then it's not hypocrisy or waffling - it's just different people with a different complaint. None of you seem to get that.

Finally, most of us complaining about the run after these losses were complaining about the run after the wins as well, certainly after the Lions game, etc. Perhaps not as vocally as now, but that's to be understood, I would think.

tony hipchest
11-25-2009, 10:53 PM
Predominant? I sincerely doubt that. .

you are correct in your doubt. there was a school of thought that troy polamalu actually mattered and was a huge difference in between a win and a loss, but from what i remember, the predominant thought was that any back up should be able to come in and simply execute the same defense.

i recall alot of complaints of the cb's giving such a soft cushion even though we were playing without troy and timmons (our 2 most atheletic defenders). :noidea:

the coaches were actually blamed for making the proper adjustments AND the players were blamed for not executing. :screwy:

for those who dont know.... troy is a pretty damn good player in the nfl.

HometownGal
11-25-2009, 10:56 PM
Then why did you respond?

Mind your own business, please.

Rick5895
11-26-2009, 05:24 AM
The time of position in all four losses was in the favor of the Steelers

KC / 44:07-- 22.25
Cincy 1 / 34.42-- 25.18
Cincy 2 / 30:08-- 29:08
Chicago / 30:26-- 29:35

Yet it is our defense that is wearing down at the end of the games. Sorry I'm not buying it.
I love our defense as much as anyone, most around here would tell you more, but I am not going to try an whitewash the fact that they are not doing the job, particularly in the 4th Qu., by blaming the OC.
All stats can be misleading , as maybe the ones I discussed earlier this thread with respect to 4th Q scoring. But I will carry on here are the totals for all 10 games this season

3,0,0,10,0,3,14,14,3,7.

The first 14 point 4th was against Minnesota, so our offense was shut out in that game aswell, as it was defensive TD's in that game.. The only 2 games we scored double digit points was against SD (10) and Denver (14) both wins and both games in which we ran the succesfully down the stretch of the game. We scored a 4th Q TD in the loss at KC, set up by our D, with out that TD (and the only one of the second half) we very well could have been shut out.
In seven out of 10 games this season we have scored no offensive TD's, been shutout on O 4 times and limited to 3 points on 3 other occasions.

Granted we are winning the time of possesion war, however, we are not holding onto the ball in the 4th Q, as our dismal points production suggests. I don't care if we run it (preferred) or pass, but we must score in the 4th and hold the ball. The D is spending too much time on the field in the 4th.
Is it play calling or a lack of execution that is costing us, it is a combination of both. But plays like 5 wide on 1st and goal (this is just one example)are something is becoming more common place and with the RB's we have they should be in the game in the backfield. Throw if we must down there, but at least have the effect of play action (this will hold the LB's) and the help of an extra blocker to pick up blitzes.

Texasteel
11-26-2009, 07:27 AM
All stats can be misleading , as maybe the ones I discussed earlier this thread with respect to 4th Q scoring. But I will carry on here are the totals for all 10 games this season

3,0,0,10,0,3,14,14,3,7.

The first 14 point 4th was against Minnesota, so our offense was shut out in that game aswell, as it was defensive TD's in that game.. The only 2 games we scored double digit points was against SD (10) and Denver (14) both wins and both games in which we ran the succesfully down the stretch of the game. We scored a 4th Q TD in the loss at KC, set up by our D, with out that TD (and the only one of the second half) we very well could have been shut out.
In seven out of 10 games this season we have scored no offensive TD's, been shutout on O 4 times and limited to 3 points on 3 other occasions.

Granted we are winning the time of possesion war, however, we are not holding onto the ball in the 4th Q, as our dismal points production suggests. I don't care if we run it (preferred) or pass, but we must score in the 4th and hold the ball. The D is spending too much time on the field in the 4th.
Is it play calling or a lack of execution that is costing us, it is a combination of both. But plays like 5 wide on 1st and goal (this is just one example)are something is becoming more common place and with the RB's we have they should be in the game in the backfield. Throw if we must down there, but at least have the effect of play action (this will hold the LB's) and the help of an extra blocker to pick up blitzes.


Stats can be misleading, but not time on the field. If you are saying that our offense is leaving the defense on the field so long that they are wearing out in the 4th Qu. either our defensive players are the worst conditioned in football, or you are mistaken.

The defense has given up to many points in the 4th Qu. and that is not all or even mostly the offenses fault.

BlastFurnace
11-26-2009, 07:42 AM
I agree there, I didn't see the first drive of the second half but couldn't believe Ben threw a pic. You have to be careful with the ball when you are dominating. Don't give momentum to a crappy team. Besides the call with Moore, I don't see why Arians called a bad game. 2 pics and a special team TD is tough to overcome I don't care if Don Coryell was the OC.

I agree. If Miller catches that easy pass over the middle instead of popping it up in the air for the INT, the Steelers probably atleast get 3 there and we aren't even talking about Arians.

Rick5895
11-26-2009, 08:25 AM
Stats can be misleading, but not time on the field. If you are saying that our offense is leaving the defense on the field so long that they are wearing out in the 4th Qu. either our defensive players are the worst conditioned in football, or you are mistaken.

The defense has given up to many points in the 4th Qu. and that is not all or even mostly the offenses fault.

I am not saying pour defense is wearing down, and I agree they give up too many points in the 4th. I am saying Our O does not help matters at all. T O P is great but for example against KC we held the ball 20 minutes more, and scored only 24 points, with only 7 in the second half with a total of over 500 yards. Great Offense, but not where it matters on the score sheet. The same can be said about the D, great D but not when it matters.
The effects can be cumulative though, it is not just KC. I am not suggesting it is the offenses fault the D gives up too many points in the 4th, but the offense needs to score and not be satisfied to run 3-6 plays then punt when we have a lead.

revefsreleets
11-27-2009, 08:09 AM
Predominant? I sincerely doubt that. Secondly, if it's a completely different set of people complaining this time (as I suspect) then it's not hypocrisy or waffling - it's just different people with a different complaint. None of you seem to get that.

Finally, most of us complaining about the run after these losses were complaining about the run after the wins as well, certainly after the Lions game, etc. Perhaps not as vocally as now, but that's to be understood, I would think.

Predominate=advantage in numbers.

I'd estimate that 75% of the posters on this board chimed in saying we "Were not putting teams away by playing too conservatively on offense" or something in that vein.

The prevailing spirit of this board IS consistent. Win, and 70% of the people will complain 70% of the time. Lose, and 90% of the people will complain all the time. And 75% of what ALL the complainers say is usually borderline nonsensical...

ricardisimo
11-27-2009, 04:04 PM
What you're describing is a different phenomenon entirely. Cheerleading is boring after the first 30 seconds, and everyone wants to play La-Z-Boy coach, which is easily half the purpose of these forums. It's therapeutic, fun and leads to scintillating discussions... like this one here!

Complaints, in other words, do indeed dominate these forums. I would, however, dispute your claim that complaints about the offense being too conservative were ever predominant. It seems clear enough to me that the main theme for the entire year thus far has been whether or not we are playing "Steelers football"; i.e., conservative, run-oriented, smack-mouth football.

If there are any statisticians in the forum with way too much time on their hands, please settle this once and for all.

The other thing I need to keep stressing to you and others, rev, is: so what? Your regular counterargument, here and in several other threads, is "You're not allowed to say that because other threads earlier in the year said the opposite." Now, I suppose that if I made a specific claim in a thread, and you were to cite me elsewhere claiming the exact opposite, that there's some sort of legitimacy to that. But even there, people are allowed to change their minds, or the context is different, or whatever.

I guess my question is: Why are you in these forums other than to make these fallacious arguments and to question the mental capacity of everyone else but you? Mind you, if that's what floats your boat, go for it. I judge no one, ever... except Ligashesky and Arians.

revefsreleets
11-27-2009, 08:34 PM
What you're describing is a different phenomenon entirely. Cheerleading is boring after the first 30 seconds, and everyone wants to play La-Z-Boy coach, which is easily half the purpose of these forums. It's therapeutic, fun and leads to scintillating discussions... like this one here!

Complaints, in other words, do indeed dominate these forums. I would, however, dispute your claim that complaints about the offense being too conservative were ever predominant. It seems clear enough to me that the main theme for the entire year thus far has been whether or not we are playing "Steelers football"; i.e., conservative, run-oriented, smack-mouth football.

If there are any statisticians in the forum with way too much time on their hands, please settle this once and for all.

The other thing I need to keep stressing to you and others, rev, is: so what? Your regular counterargument, here and in several other threads, is "You're not allowed to say that because other threads earlier in the year said the opposite." Now, I suppose that if I made a specific claim in a thread, and you were to cite me elsewhere claiming the exact opposite, that there's some sort of legitimacy to that. But even there, people are allowed to change their minds, or the context is different, or whatever.

I guess my question is: Why are you in these forums other than to make these fallacious arguments and to question the mental capacity of everyone else but you? Mind you, if that's what floats your boat, go for it. I judge no one, ever... except Ligashesky and Arians.


That's a lot of questions all at once...and you are well met, my friend! Thank you for asking in a respectful manner...

However, my only answer to you that would do proper service to the question is to read through all my posts in re this matter over the last 3 years...

If you want a more succinct answer, I'll give it. Are the Steelers perfect? No. But has any other franchise done it better in the last 30 years? Do they know what they are doing a LITTLE bit better than some random internet message board posters?

I'm sure you are, like many others here, far superior in YOUR knowledge of all things football to the Steelers FO and coaching staff, so take a number and get in line...but PLEASE stop singling ME out as the standard bearer or scapegoat simply because I point out that the entire lot of you message board geniuses, collectively, know less than the current Steelers coaching staff has FORGOTTEN about football...

I take the coaches side usually...so when you bash me, you bash the STEELERS FO AND COACHING STAFF.

If you're comfortable doing that, especially in the big picture (because only idiots will argue over the impact of specific plays), than have at it, big guy...and i'll happily be your hucklebuck...

markymarc
11-28-2009, 12:24 PM
(because only idiots will argue over the impact of specific plays)

I am a believer that there were quite a few plays in the Chiefs game that helped get us a loss. The special teams giving up another return TD, the 2 interceptions, Mike Wallace's fumble and penalties at bad times among others.

Now Mike Tomlin loves to talk about situational football. He is very animate about it during practice and on game day. The only reason I bring up situational football is because as a team we did blow it on the 3rd and 2 call with a toss sweep to Moore. That play not only lost us yards, it killed our drive and even moved us out of FG range. The offense and coaches making that call failed miserably in situational football at that time in the game.

Texasteel
11-29-2009, 01:28 PM
I am not saying pour defense is wearing down, and I agree they give up too many points in the 4th. I am saying Our O does not help matters at all. T O P is great but for example against KC we held the ball 20 minutes more, and scored only 24 points, with only 7 in the second half with a total of over 500 yards. Great Offense, but not where it matters on the score sheet. The same can be said about the D, great D but not when it matters.
The effects can be cumulative though, it is not just KC. I am not suggesting it is the offenses fault the D gives up too many points in the 4th, but the offense needs to score and not be satisfied to run 3-6 plays then punt when we have a lead.

You'll find that we agree on the KC game. That was an awful game that everyone looked bad in. I Mean Everyone. That was one of those games that you wish you could just throw away, hopefully we will be able to, we'll see.

ricardisimo
11-29-2009, 07:27 PM
I have a very good feeling about Dixon tonight. He won't be replacing Ben anytime soon, but I think they will scale back the offense a bit, focus on the run, and he will thrive and compete. I think this may just be exactly what the Steelers need to sort of hit the Reset button on a lot of things this season, particularly the offensive philosophy. We'll see if it carries over once Ben is back.

Steeldude
11-29-2009, 09:12 PM
What you're describing is a different phenomenon entirely. Cheerleading is boring after the first 30 seconds, and everyone wants to play La-Z-Boy coach, which is easily half the purpose of these forums. It's therapeutic, fun and leads to scintillating discussions... like this one here!

Complaints, in other words, do indeed dominate these forums. I would, however, dispute your claim that complaints about the offense being too conservative were ever predominant. It seems clear enough to me that the main theme for the entire year thus far has been whether or not we are playing "Steelers football"; i.e., conservative, run-oriented, smack-mouth football.

If there are any statisticians in the forum with way too much time on their hands, please settle this once and for all.

The other thing I need to keep stressing to you and others, rev, is: so what? Your regular counterargument, here and in several other threads, is "You're not allowed to say that because other threads earlier in the year said the opposite." Now, I suppose that if I made a specific claim in a thread, and you were to cite me elsewhere claiming the exact opposite, that there's some sort of legitimacy to that. But even there, people are allowed to change their minds, or the context is different, or whatever.

I guess my question is: Why are you in these forums other than to make these fallacious arguments and to question the mental capacity of everyone else but you? Mind you, if that's what floats your boat, go for it. I judge no one, ever... except Ligashesky and Arians.

excellent post and precise observation.

Steeldude
11-29-2009, 09:21 PM
because only idiots will argue over the impact of specific plays

again you personally attack people for their opinions and/or discussions. people are not idiots for discussing the impact of specific plays. you really need to start accepting the fact that some people aren't going to agree with your "coaches are always right" routine. there is no reason to resort to harassing, belittling and/or insulting people because they do not agree with you. :smile: