PDA

View Full Version : First day at Patriot training camp, Glengarry Glen Ross,R.I.


3 to be 4
01-24-2006, 07:08 PM
Belichick: Let me have your attention for a moment! So you're talking about what? You're talking about...(puts out his cigarette)...bitching about that play you blew last season, some son of a bitch that doesn't want to tackle for you, somebody that doesn't want what you're selling, some broad you're trying to screw and so forth. Let's talk about something important. Are they all here?
Brady: All but one.
Belichick: Well, I'm going anyway. Let's talk about something important! (to Kevin Faulk) Put that coffee down!! Coffee's for winners only. (Faulk scoffs) Do you think I'm ****ing with you? I am not ****ing with you. I'm here straight from Kraft's office. And I'm here on a mission of mercy. Your name's still Faulk?
Faulk: Yeah.
Belichick: You call yourself a running back, you son of a bitch?
Faulk: I don't have to listen to this shit.
Belichick: You certainly don't pal. 'Cause the good news is -- you're fired. The bad news is you've got, all you got, just one week to regain your jobs, starting today. Starting with todays practice. Oh, have I got your attention now? Good. 'Cause we're adding a little something to this months incentive contest. As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado. Anyone want to see second prize? Second prize's a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're released. You get the picture? You're laughing now? You got the plays. Kraft pays good money. You can't close the plays you're given, you can't close shit, you ARE shit, hit the bricks pal and beat it 'cause you are going out!!!
Hobbs: The gameplans were weak.
Belichick: 'The gameplans were weak.' ****ing gameplans were weak? You're weak, Mr Hands!! I've been in this business thirty five years.
As yet to be drafted rookie: What's your name?
Belichick: **** YOU, that's my name!! You know why, Mister? 'Cause you drove a Hyundai to get here tonight, I drove a eighty thousand dollar BMW. That's my name!! (to Faulk) And your name is "you're wanting." And you can't play in a man's game. You can't hold on the ******* ball!. (at a near whisper) And you go home and tell your wife your troubles. (to everyone again) Because only one thing counts in this life! Get them to score touchdowns! You hear me, you ****ing ******s?
(Belichick flips over a blackboard which has two sets of letters on it: ABC, and AIDA.)
Belichick: A-B-C. A-always, B-be, C-completing. Always be completing! Always be completing!! A-I-D-A. Attention, interest, decision, action. Attention -- do I have your attention? Interest -- are you interested? I know you are because it's **** or walk. You complete the play or you hit the bricks! Decision -- have you made your decision for Christ?!! And action. A-I-D-A; get out there!! You got the fans comin' in; you think they came in to get out of the rain? Guy doesn't walk into the Stadium unless he wants to win. Sitting out there waiting to give you their money! Are you gonna take it? Are you man enough to take it? (to Faulk) What's the problem pal? You. Butter*******fingers.
Faulk: You're such a hero, you're so rich. Why you coming down here and waste your time on a bunch of bums?
(The coach sits and takes off his gold watch)
Belichick: You see this watch? You see this watch?
Faulk: Yeah.
Belichick: That watch cost more than your car. I made $3,970,000 last year. How much you make? You see, pal, that's who I am. And you're nothing. Nice guy? I don't give a shit. Good father? **** you -- go home and play with your kids!! (to everyone) You wanna play here? Win!! (to Hobbs) You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you ****sucker? You can't take this -- how can you take the abuse you get in a game?! You don't like it -- leave. I can go out there tonight a high school team, get myself to a Super Bowl. A Super Bowl! Tonight! In two hours! Can you? Can you? Go and do likewise! A-I-D-A!! Get mad! You sons of bitches! Get mad!! You know what it takes to win football!?
(He pulls something out of his briefcase)
Belichick: It takes brass balls to win a Super Bowl.
(He's holding two brass balls on string, over the appropriate "area"--he puts them away after a pause)
Belichick: Go and do likewise, gents. The money's out there, you pick it up, it's yours. You don't--I have no sympathy for you. You wanna go out tonight and win, win, it's yours. If not you're going to be shining my shoes. Bunch of losers sitting around in a bar. (in a mocking weak voice) "Oh yeah, I used to be a football player, it's a tough racket." (he takes out large stack of red index cards tied together with string from his briefcase) These are the new plays. These are the Belichick plays. And to you, they're gold. And you don't get them. Because to give them to you is just throwing them away. (he hands the stack to to Brady) They're for winners.
I'd wish you good luck but you wouldn't know what to do with it if you got it. (to Faulk as he puts on his watch again) And to answer your question, pal: why am I here? I came here because Kraft asked me to, they asked me for a favor. I said, the real favor, follow my advice and fire your ****ing ass because a loser is a loser.
(He stares at Kevin Faulk for a sec, and then picking up his briefcase, goes into inner office with his coaches)

Suitanim
01-24-2006, 07:33 PM
Didn't we just do this?

BlackNGold203
01-24-2006, 07:50 PM
UH...OK......

3 to be 4
01-24-2006, 08:21 PM
it was a notion that became a concept that had to flourish as an idea.

a movie that awesome had to have a place.

no?

oh, well... i'll stick with The Godfather then

hardwork
01-24-2006, 08:34 PM
What bothered me that day wasn't so much Faulk, or Troy Brown, or even Brady's interception. It was Brady missing two wide open receivers, one for a sure TD, and other one at least down close to the end zone.

Brady12
01-24-2006, 10:22 PM
Didn't we just do this?


What he said.

3 to be 4
01-25-2006, 05:30 AM
What bothered me that day wasn't so much Faulk, or Troy Brown, or even Brady's interception. It was Brady missing two wide open receivers, one for a sure TD, and other one at least down close to the end zone.

right. the fumbles in their own end that led to the massive change in momentum and directly to 17 points didnt hurt nearly as much as Brady missing a couple of passes.:rolleyes:

hardwork
01-25-2006, 08:47 AM
right. the fumbles in their own end that led to the massive change in momentum and directly to 17 points didnt hurt nearly as much as Brady missing a couple of passes.:rolleyes:

So you really don't get what I was talking about. Oh well.

Cape Cod Steel Head
01-25-2006, 12:55 PM
So you really don't get what I was talking about. Oh well.
I do. Golden boy lost the game for you guys. Get over it!:bouncy:

hardwork
01-25-2006, 01:30 PM
Hey, capecod, good one. Now go for a swim off P-town.

Cape Cod Steel Head
01-25-2006, 02:53 PM
Hey, capecod, good one. Now go for a swim off P-town.
No thanks .Its too cold for me

hardwork
01-25-2006, 03:47 PM
No thanks .Its too cold for me

I would think so.

3 to be 4
01-25-2006, 05:29 PM
So you really don't get what I was talking about. Oh well.


yeah i get it hardwork, one bad game and typical Boston fan reaction.
I love Boston. I love Boston sports teams. I cant stand typical idiotic Boston sports fans.

im sure you listen to Pete Shepard on WEEI and think hes a genius too.

you actually think Brady was the BIG problem in that game?
thats like the Steeler fans who STILL want to blame last years AFCCG loss on Roethlisburger instead of the defensive meltdown and lack of running game.

i rag on Manning because hes NEVER come through EVER. But when guys like Brady and Ben come through almost every time, when they actually lose, im not going to go out of my way to pin the whole thing on them ,especially when their teamates absolutley SUCK all night.

hardwork
01-25-2006, 05:35 PM
yeah i get it hardwork, one bad game and typical Boston fan reaction.
I love Boston. I love Boston sports teams. I cant stand typical idiotic Boston sports fans.

im sure you listen to Pete Shepard on WEEI and think hes a genius too.

you actually think Brady was the BIG problem in that game?
thats like the Steeler fans who STILL want to blame last years AFCCG loss on Roethlisburger instead of the defensive meltdown and lack of running game.

i rag on Manning because hes NEVER come through EVER. But when guys like Brady and Ben come through almost every time, when they actually lose, im not going to go out of my way to pin the whole thing on them ,especially when their teamates absolutley SUCK all night.

Stop opening your mouth and removing all doubt, fool.

3 to be 4
01-25-2006, 08:44 PM
Stop opening your mouth and removing all doubt, fool.


oooooh, why i oughtta......:dang: :dang: :dang: :dang: :dang:

hardwork
01-26-2006, 08:52 AM
Look, 3 to be, it has nothing to do with blaming Brady, or anyone else. Its about concern. Brady had two guys open, running for the end zone, and he missed 'em. That just isn't the kind of thing Brady does. So, stop guessing where I'm coming from on this and just read what I said. I shouldn't have to deconstruct your posts and point to where you're assuming rather then understanding.

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 09:08 AM
Look, 3 to be, it has nothing to do with blaming Brady, or anyone else. Its about concern. Brady had two guys open, running for the end zone, and he missed 'em. That just isn't the kind of thing Brady does. thats cause brady was rattled and running scared. he got hit 3 times in the 1st quarter. brady hates to get hit and it shows in his play. kinda like manning. give them 5 seconds in the pocket and they will always win. collapse that pocket and they lose.

hardwork
01-26-2006, 09:37 AM
thats cause brady was rattled and running scared. he got hit 3 times in the 1st quarter. brady hates to get hit and it shows in his play. kinda like manning. give them 5 seconds in the pocket and they will always win. collapse that pocket and they lose.

I see.

Livinginthe past
01-26-2006, 01:16 PM
thats cause brady was rattled and running scared. he got hit 3 times in the 1st quarter. brady hates to get hit and it shows in his play. kinda like manning. give them 5 seconds in the pocket and they will always win. collapse that pocket and they lose.

For your next trick you might want to explain to us why the Steelers totally suck ass at collapsing the pocket then Tony!

And if you're not too busy posting inane nonsense - maybe you give me a list of QB's who 'actually dont mind being hit' - Thanks

NM

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 01:31 PM
And if you're not too busy posting inane nonsense - maybe you give me a list of QB's who 'actually dont mind being hit' - Thanks

NM

b. farve
d. culpepper
s. mcnair
d. mcnabb
b. roethlisberger

Livinginthe past
01-26-2006, 01:40 PM
b. farve
d. culpepper
s. mcnair
d. mcnabb
b. roethlisberger

Yes them QB's have certainly come up trumps this year havent they?

Culpepper - exposed failure without R.Moss - not particularly accurate before getting hit let alone after.

S. McNair - the old 'warrior' this is one guy who has taken alot of shots - then again what has he ever won?

DMcNabb - obviously enjoys getting hit so much he has missed most of this season through injury.



I dont know how you can possibly put Ben in there - for two reasons.

1. He hasnt played enough games to be hit that many times - and until recently he didnt pass more than 20 times a game on a regular basis.

2. He is extremely good at evading tackles and hits - you would think if he enjoyed it that much he would let himself get hit a little more wouldnt ya?


Out of a list of 5 im going to give you credit for one - B . Favre.

NM

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 01:52 PM
Yes them QB's have certainly come up trumps this year havent they?

Culpepper - exposed failure without R.Moss - not particularly accurate before getting hit let alone after.

S. McNair - the old 'warrior' this is one guy who has taken alot of shots - then again what has he ever won?

DMcNabb - obviously enjoys getting hit so much he has missed most of this season through injury.



I dont know how you can possibly put Ben in there - for two reasons.

1. He hasnt played enough games to be hit that many times - and until recently he didnt pass more than 20 times a game on a regular basis.

2. He is extremely good at evading tackles and hits - you would think if he enjoyed it that much he would let himself get hit a little more wouldnt ya?


Out of a list of 5 im going to give you credit for one - B . Favre.

NM

none of this jibber jabber has anything to do with the question you asked. you asked for a list of qb's who dont mind getting hit. these guys mind a hell of alot less than manning or brady. body language says it all. the latter 2 get shell shocked when they get hit early more than 1 or 2 times. they make uncharacteristic mistakes they never usually do when standing upright with a clean jersey.

out of your list of 1 (tom brady) i will give you credit for zero.

Livinginthe past
01-26-2006, 03:15 PM
none of this jibber jabber has anything to do with the question you asked. you asked for a list of qb's who dont mind getting hit. these guys mind a hell of alot less than manning or brady. body language says it all. the latter 2 get shell shocked when they get hit early more than 1 or 2 times. they make uncharacteristic mistakes they never usually do when standing upright with a clean jersey.

out of your list of 1 (tom brady) i will give you credit for zero.

Jibber Jabber? Isn't he in one of the early Star Wars movies?

I didnt construct any list by the way.

I am not sure how you can even put Manning and Brady in the same class when it comes to passing effectiveness whilst being hit or pressured!

Why dont you compare their playoff records to see how each react to increased intensity and physical play by opposing D-Lines/LB's?

Brady, especially this year has had a make-shift O-Line - 3 left tackles for a start and 2 different guys snapping him the ball.

You surely must have seen some Pats games (not including the one where we beat you) - you would have seen Brady on his ass a worrying amount of the time this season he was repeatedly hit whilst releasing the ball.

Not many QB's (if any) hang in there until the last second to make the right pass better than Brady.

Either Brady has never been put under any pressure whilst compiling a 10-1 playoff record - or he is a lot better in the face of intense physical pressure than you let on.

NM

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 04:28 PM
"Not many QB's (if any) hang in there until the last second to make the right pass better than Brady."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lmao!

let me see if i follow you here.... by your logic d. branch is tougher than hines ward cause hes won more playoff games and superbowls?

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 04:31 PM
youre right living. in fact i bet if we look at the numbers brady gets hit more than david carr and kurt warner (remember him? he used to be great until he started getting hit. then the book to defeat him was written)

Livinginthe past
01-26-2006, 04:36 PM
youre right living. in fact i bet if we look at the numbers brady gets hit more than david carr and kurt warner (remember him? he used to be great until he started getting hit. then the book to defeat him was written)

I dont know why it always seems beyond you to follow basic lines of argument Tony.

You always go off on unrelated tangents, such as introducing WR's into the mix for no apparent reason.

Here is a short statement to make it easy for you - Tom Brady is a QB who handles pressure, both physical and mental, better than an QB playing the game today.

I can prove this becasue he just keeps winning - and winning in SB's too where the pressure is greatest - try staying on track this time Tony - i'd hate to see you wander off and start discussing Linebackers......

NM

hardwork
01-26-2006, 04:46 PM
Living in the past, you're wasting your time. You're not going to get anywhere with that poster. He just wants to play like Brady is a *****. Of course they can't beat Brady at crunch time.

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 04:57 PM
I dont know why it always seems beyond you to follow basic lines of argument Tony.

You always go off on unrelated tangents, such as introducing WR's into the mix for no apparent reason.

Here is a short statement to make it easy for you - Tom Brady is a QB who handles pressure, both physical and mental, better than an QB playing the game today.

I can prove this becasue he just keeps winning - and winning in SB's too where the pressure is greatest - try staying on track this time Tony - i'd hate to see you wander off and start discussing Linebackers......

NM

its easy to handle physical pressure when its not there. when it is there the patriots lose. simple. keep on track. this argument is about tuff quarterbacks and you wanna start talking about playoff records.

compare the 2 steeler games last year. early pressure on brady = halloween win. no pressure on brady = afc champ game loss. look at the loss last year vs. miami. same story. brady is hit early and he loses. kc, carolina, denver all effectively got early hits on brady. = losses.

this really pisses you off that i will not accept brady as one of the toughest qb's in the league. is he tougher than pennington, losman, vick, brees? sure. but for his size he simply isnt in the class of "my list". i always though d. bledsoe was tough as nails. especially after that hit from mo lewis. never seen brady do that. thats because he doesnt have the stones. neither does manning.

and just to throw you a curve ball and really confuse you.... t. saurbrun is a tuff punter (has always been looked at as one) martin or bill gramatica arent as tough as him though. i know its complex for you to understand, let me try to simplify: a rock is tougher than a feather. a pit bull is tougher than a toy poodle. getting a point across to you is tougher than getting it across to brick wall.

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 05:00 PM
Living in the past, you're wasting your time. You're not going to get anywhere with that poster. He just wants to play like Brady is a *****. Of course they can't beat Brady at crunch time.
too bad brady cant beat the broncos during crunch time. what is that 4 losses in the 5 meetings during the brady era? steelers wouldve loved to tee off on brady like they did carson, peyton, and jake. especially with the patriots o-line acting like turnstyles.

hardwork
01-26-2006, 05:03 PM
too bad brady cant beat the broncos during crunch time. what is that 4 losses in the 5 meetings during the brady era? steelers wouldve loved to tee off on brady like they did carson, peyton, and jake. especially with the patriots o-line acting like turnstyles.

I see.

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 05:16 PM
Culpepper - exposed failure without R.Moss - not particularly accurate before getting hit let alone after.

S. McNair - the old 'warrior' this is one guy who has taken alot of shots - then again what has he ever won?

DMcNabb - obviously enjoys getting hit so much he has missed most of this season through injury.



NM

who went off topic here living? what does moss and accuracy have to do with a qb's toughness? donovan played one of his best games with a broken leg but i bet you dont think jack youngblood is tough because "what has he ever won"?

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 05:18 PM
I see.
uh huh. im sure you do.

Livinginthe past
01-26-2006, 05:39 PM
who went off topic here living? what does moss and accuracy have to do with a qb's toughness? donovan played one of his best games with a broken leg but i bet you dont think jack youngblood is tough because "what has he ever won"?

Im afraid you did Tony!

You made some wild comment about Brady being noticably weaker after he has been hit - yet you cant give me evidence.

thats cause brady was rattled and running scared. he got hit 3 times in the 1st quarter. brady hates to get hit and it shows in his play. kinda like manning. give them 5 seconds in the pocket and they will always win. collapse that pocket and they lose

I can supply evidence to the contrary - he keeps winning games no matter how many times he gets hit - his O-Line aren't Pro-Bowlers - not one of them.

So maybe you can show me these games he loses when put under pressure?

What are you going to do ? Pick out every loss he has and say its down to not being able to cope with pressure?

What about all the games he won? Were they all non-pressure situations?

I am highlighting the obvious bias in your statement - you pick out a winner like Brady and a proven choker like Manning and group them together under the heading of QB's who wilt under pressure.

Despite how you may try and wriggle I have just made the statement look what it is - weak and unfounded.

NM

3 to be 4
01-26-2006, 05:49 PM
Im afraid you did Tony!

You made some wild comment about Brady being noticably weaker after he has been hit - yet you cant give me evidence.



I can supply evidence to the contrary - he keeps winning games no matter how many times he gets hit - his O-Line aren't Pro-Bowlers - not one of them.

So maybe you can show me these games he loses when put under pressure?

What are you going to do ? Pick out every loss he has and say its down to not being able to cope with pressure?

What about all the games he won? Were they all non-pressure situations?

I am highlighting the obvious bias in your statement - you pick out a winner like Brady and a proven choker like Manning and group them together under the heading of QB's who wilt under pressure.

Despite how you may try and wriggle I have just made the statement look what it is - weak and unfounded.

NM



he never did show any evidence when he made this ridiculous claim a couple of weeks ago. my mistake is falling into the trap of even debating it with him.
i mean, 5 frickin years in the league, 11 playoff games, and hes just NOW facing pressure???
its asinine. and its dissing his own team since the Steelers are supposedly such a "tough" team. If thats so why does Brady have no problemo with them?

You know, he did indeed FACE more pressure than usual as this season went along. And Dillon didnt find the same holes he used to. hmmmm,what could that be from? Maybe missing Light and Koppen, their 2 best O linemen?
so of course the Broncos took advantage of that fact. But to take this leap that Brady has happy Feet? Fine, then so did Montana.

by the way, remember Saint Ben when he faced pressure in the playoffs last year and the Colt and Bengal games during the regular season??

dont compare Ben's toughness to Brady just yet. let's see how he does in Detroit first.
he probably will do fine, but this revisionist crap cracks me up.

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 06:11 PM
dont compare Ben's toughness to Brady just yet.
:sofunny: lol, thanks for playing along. now we get to the crux of the matter. patfans cant even accept another teams fan saying their qb is "tougher" than theirs. pitiful. sure.... brady is 2nd to only farve in toughness:blah: (even though manning has never had to leave a game due to injury and started a few more games than brady)

living.... ive given you numerous games where brady was hit early and often and lost. feel free to list me some games where brady was hit early and often and won, cause i havent seen him get hit too much, especially in the playoffs. (untill 2 weeks ago)

3 to be 4
01-26-2006, 07:38 PM
:sofunny: lol, thanks for playing along. now we get to the crux of the matter. patfans cant even accept another teams fan saying their qb is "tougher" than theirs. pitiful. sure.... brady is 2nd to only farve in toughness:blah: (even though manning has never had to leave a game due to injury and started a few more games than brady)

living.... ive given you numerous games where brady was hit early and often and lost. feel free to list me some games where brady was hit early and often and won, cause i havent seen him get hit too much, especially in the playoffs. (untill 2 weeks ago)


games Brady hit often and won
2001 at Jets
2001 vs Browns
2001 at Bills
2001 SB Rams put pretty good heat on
2002 at Bears
2002 vs Miami
2003 vs Titans
2003 at Miami
2003 at Texans
2003 vs Titans playoffs
2004 vs Ravens
2005 vs Bills
2005 at Dolphins

since you asked. EVERY QB gets hit. who the crap knows who's the most tough or who's the 2nd most. What you said is different, that hes not tough. And you still havent demonstrated why. Fine. btw, leaving Staubach off your list shows something about your lack of knowledge on this matter.

hardwork
01-26-2006, 07:48 PM
If you're going to compile a list of QBs who could take a hit Steve Grogan would have to be right in there with the best. That guy could take a major hit and keep right on going.

3 to be 4
01-26-2006, 08:30 PM
remember Grogan playing with that neck brace thing?? In his last year i think, 1990.

tony hipchest
01-26-2006, 09:44 PM
now you guys are getting into the hang of it. there have been plenty of qb's tougher than tom brady! many who would rather take a *shudder* sack, than throw a 100 yd bonehead interception.

3 to be 4
01-26-2006, 09:59 PM
now you guys are getting into the hang of it. there have been plenty of qb's tougher than tom brady! many who would rather take a *shudder* sack, than throw a 100 yd bonehead interception.


yeah, that INT Ben threw to Rodney Harrison in the AFCCG really WAS bad wasnt it?

Livinginthe past
01-27-2006, 03:37 AM
now you guys are getting into the hang of it. there have been plenty of qb's tougher than tom brady! many who would rather take a *shudder* sack, than throw a 100 yd bonehead interception.

You are changing the topic again slightly - dont think I havent noticed.

The idea was you were going to show us how Brady was affected in a Peyton Manning like fashion once he got hit early - you are saying his game deteriorates massively if he feels the heat.

Im telling you he couldnt have won all those regular season games, all those playoff games and all those SB's by being noticeably rattled after a big early hit!

We'll be waiting for your numerous examples of Brady wilting under the pressure of a "big early hit" - im sure you can list one Brady example for every Manning example we give you.

NM

tony hipchest
01-27-2006, 11:18 AM
yeah, that INT Ben threw to Rodney Harrison in the AFCCG really WAS bad wasnt it? are you saying brady played like a rookie in denver? cause it sounds like you are comparing a mistake made by a rookie in the biggest game of his life to a mistake made by 3 time sb winner and sb mvp, playing in an average playoff game (of which he had won the ten previous) who happens to be the coolest most cerebral qb in the game according to many.

our resident patfans here seem rather tight lipped on what actually went wrong in that game. some insight and analysis would be cool. now i know patfans in general are used to calling their oppositions fans whiners and excuse makers when they talk about a loss to the mighty patriots but i dont think that would happen on this board after just discussing and giving reasons for a loss.

ive already offered my analysis. as a whole i think they were too distracted by shiny objects and maybe took their opponents lightly. tom succumbed to early pressure and him and the rest of the team started pressing and making uncharacteristic mistakes to compensate. or is it just that denver has the patriots number much like the patriots have had the steelers and colts number in the past?

tony hipchest
01-27-2006, 11:31 AM
You are changing the topic again slightly - dont think I havent noticed.

The idea was you were going to show us how Brady was affected in a Peyton Manning like fashion once he got hit early - you are saying his game deteriorates massively if he feels the heat.

Im telling you he couldnt have won all those regular season games, all those playoff games and all those SB's by being noticeably rattled after a big early hit!

We'll be waiting for your numerous examples of Brady wilting under the pressure of a "big early hit" - im sure you can list one Brady example for every Manning example we give you.

NMkansas city, denverX2, miami, pittsburgh, carolina, just some from the last 2 years. but i think its really time we re visit post #17 in this thread.

Livinginthe past
01-27-2006, 11:38 AM
kansas city, denverX2, miami, pittsburgh, carolina, just some from the last 2 years. but i think its really time we re visit post #17 in this thread.

So you can quote me 6 games from out of 37 from the last 2 years?

I could make very valid excuses about injuries to key components of the offense - if your team has no riunning game - guess who the D is going to key on?

During the current run the Pats have had a running game of note for 1 year - last year with Corey Dillon- before that it was Antowain Smith who couldnt produce much outside of the playoffs.

Despite all of this Brady is the single most succesful QB from the last 5 years - putting Choke-Meister Manning in with him just makes you look foolish.

NM

tony hipchest
01-27-2006, 11:51 AM
actually living, you look quite the fool. it kills you that my impression of brady is someone who has survived in a comfort zone of a pocket just like manning. i dont think he is that tough physically and obviously you think he is the jack lambert of quarterbacks. heres some simple math for you. patriots have lost 9 games in the last 37. theres a common thread in all of them. manning hasnt lost many games in the past few years either. same common thread in his losses. just be happy with having the best, winningest, most handsome qb in the nfl. doent mean he has to be big "bad leroy brown....baddest man in the whole damn town......." too.

tony hipchest
01-27-2006, 11:51 AM
oops on the double post, however i put manning and brady probably midrange in toughness. nowhere have i called them weaklings they just have a little achilles heel.

Livinginthe past
01-27-2006, 12:04 PM
actually living, you look quite the fool. it kills you that my impression of brady is someone who has survived in a comfort zone of a pocket just like manning. i dont think he is that tough physically and obviously you think he is the jack lambert of quarterbacks. heres some simple math for you. patriots have lost 9 games in the last 37. theres a common thread in all of them. manning hasnt lost many games in the past few years either. same common thread in his losses. just be happy with having the best, winningest, most handsome qb in the nfl. doent mean he has to be big "bad leroy brown....baddest man in the whole damn town......." too.

Maybe we are talking about different things here.

Brady is the guy I would take to win any important game - hard hits or not.

Brady's O-LIne gets little or no love from football pundits as they are nearly all low round rejects, rookies and cast-offs - and thats when they are healthy.

How many games has Brady missed due to injury?

If he hasnt many ...then you must be questioning his mental toughness!

And again I say - mentally weak QB's do not win 3SB's in 4 years!

Im not touting my QB as the most likely to the last one standing in a saloon bar fist fight - im saying he is the guy most likely to get it done when the heat (both mental and physical) is on.

Manning keeps losing when he gets hit....Brady doesnt. Its as simple as that.

NM

3 to be 4
01-27-2006, 12:56 PM
[QUOTEgames Brady hit often and won
2001 at Jets
2001 vs Browns
2001 at Bills
2001 SB Rams put pretty good heat on
2002 at Bears
2002 vs Miami
2003 vs Titans
2003 at Miami
2003 at Texans
2003 vs Titans playoffs
2004 vs Ravens
2005 vs Bills
2005 at Dolphins

since you asked. EVERY QB gets hit. who the crap knows who's the most tough or who's the 2nd most. What you said is different, that hes not tough. And you still havent demonstrated why. Fine. btw, leaving Staubach off your list shows something about your lack of knowledge on this matter.[/QUOTE]

Tony, you never responded top this list. You asked for examples and I gave them.

btw, whats the common thread in the games Roethlisburger has lost? or any QB
hmmmm. thats right, pressure.

but like LITP said, whatever, Brady has 3 rings. He could be Liberace for all I care.
maybe Ben can win one.

tony hipchest
01-27-2006, 01:37 PM
Tony, you never responded top this list. You asked for examples and I gave them.

btw, whats the common thread in the games Roethlisburger has lost? or any QB
hmmmm. thats right, pressure.

but like LITP said, whatever, Brady has 3 rings. He could be Liberace for all I care.
maybe Ben can win one. i never responded cause your stauback comment was pretty retarded. please note that i listed CURRENT players and wasnt about to compile a list of all time tough qb's. like someone already noted you left jim kelly off one of your lists yet i didnt feel compelled to question your football intelligence over this faux pas.

thats a nice list you got there of wins when brady is getting flattened early and often. its not confirmed but at least you tried.

so every loss in the nfl is due to pressure? interresting but wrong. sometimes a team loses cause their d cant stop the run, yet their qb can remain upright all day. sometimes its special teams. many things other than having youre qb pressured can lead to a loss.

now lets look at bens FOUR career losses.

afccg vs. patriots- yes mental pressure
2005 vs. pats- no he handled the pressure fine and conducted a drive in the final 3 minutes to tie the game
2005 vs. colts- physical pressure? indirectly yes. returning from knee surgery and chipping a bone in his thumb
2005 vs. bengals- more physical pressure. he reinjures his thumb but keeps the team in it with over 300 yds passing and 3 tds. a special teams guffaw really contributed though.

see i can atleast admit ben falling to pressure whether it be physically or mentally. some brady fans cant do the same.

games ben has been injured/hammered/flattened but won, just off the top of my head
dallas
cleveland
jets
cincinatti
baltimore
tennessee
san diego
indianapolis


"Brady has 3 rings. He could be Liberace for all I care." exactly. i do know manning has been the best protected qb here recently and d. carr has been the least protected. i wonder where brady falls inbetween cause listening to litp i get the impression it has been closer to d. carr. but my memory just cant confirm that.

tony hipchest
01-27-2006, 01:57 PM
How many games has Brady missed due to injury?

NONE BECAUSE HE, LIKE MANNING DOESNT GET HIT THAT MUCH (FOR THE 100TH TIME)

If he hasnt many ...then you must be questioning his mental toughness!

FOLLOW THE THREAD

And again I say - mentally weak QB's do not win 3SB's in 4 years!

AND AGAIN WHY DID YOU SWITCH THIS FROM PHYSICAL PRESSURE TO MENTAL PRESSURE?

Im not touting my QB as the most likely to the last one standing in a saloon bar fist fight -
AS WELL YOU SHOULDNT (EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE BEEN)

im saying he is the guy most likely to get it done when the heat (both mental and physical) is on.
HERE IM TALKING ABOUT GETTING BUSTED IN THE CHOPS AND YOU CHANGE IT TO "HEAT"? LIKE THEY SAY YOURE ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR LAST GAME.

Manning keeps losing when he gets hit....Brady doesnt. Its as simple as that.

OR SO YOU WOULD HAVE US BELIEVE. I SAW THE GAME IN DENVER 2 WEEKS AGO.

NM

i still dont know where this post was going but i tried my best to address the points. if you follow what i have been saying you can infer that i think the pats o-line does an excellent job. it might require actually reading my posts in this thread but i stated when brady and manning are protected and dont get hit they win. simple. i dont care who the o-line is or where they were drafted. are you knocking the o-line for the past 4 years to support bradys toughness?

3 to be 4
01-27-2006, 02:17 PM
are you saying brady played like a rookie in denver? cause it sounds like you are comparing a mistake made by a rookie in the biggest game of his life to a mistake made by 3 time sb winner and sb mvp, playing in an average playoff game (of which he had won the ten previous) who happens to be the coolest most cerebral qb in the game according to many.

our resident patfans here seem rather tight lipped on what actually went wrong in that game. some insight and analysis would be cool. now i know patfans in general are used to calling their oppositions fans whiners and excuse makers when they talk about a loss to the mighty patriots but i dont think that would happen on this board after just discussing and giving reasons for a loss.

ive already offered my analysis. as a whole i think they were too distracted by shiny objects and maybe took their opponents lightly. tom succumbed to early pressure and him and the rest of the team started pressing and making uncharacteristic mistakes to compensate. or is it just that denver has the patriots number much like the patriots have had the steelers and colts number in the past?

no, im saying that Ben screwed up, Brady screwed up, all QB's do. Brady's mistake % is considerably lower than everybody else. Does he need to be perfect?
What happened in Denver? hmm. No excuses have been made by ME. I think they were maybe overconfident and felt that scheme wise and matchup wise they had the edge but they forgot about executing and not making silly mistakes. Maybe a sign of getting fat and thinking you can just turn it on at anytime. Hey, nobody else has won 3 SB's in a row either. Maybe they lost that "edge", that eye of the tiger thing. Doesnt mean they are done. the '94 Cowboys did the same thing at Candlestick. the Steelers and 49ers had "off years". Everything is in place for the Patriots to get mad at themselves and come back in 2006 with Light, Koppen, and Harrison coming back and a boatload of picks.

Brady made a huge mistake. It wasnt his finest game thats for sure. ok, so hes only 10-1 in playoff games. who has been better? Try to remember that humans play this game.

And there is some truth about how some teams matchup well against others. DEnver gives them trouble but the Patriots also won a thrilling MNF game there in 2003. All of their recent games have been in Denver btw. Again, you never responded to the list of games they won when he was hammered pretty good. And again, after 5 years and 3 championships i think its pretty weak to say hes never faced heavy pressure.

the Patriots OL hasnt been THAT good.

tony hipchest
01-27-2006, 03:50 PM
And there is some truth about how some teams matchup well against others. DEnver gives them trouble but the Patriots also won a thrilling MNF game there in 2003. All of their recent games have been in Denver btw. Again, you never responded to the list of games they won when he was hammered pretty good. And again, after 5 years and 3 championships i think its pretty weak to say hes never faced heavy pressure.

the Patriots OL hasnt been THAT good.

yes and the steelers won a thriller on halloween and indy beat the pats this year (btw all recent games vs the colts have been in foxboro) so therefore, by the age old rules of logic and critical thinking i can infer that if the pats own the steelers or the colts, then denver owns the pats. re-read post #49 for the list you said i never answered.

3 to be 4
01-27-2006, 08:26 PM
i never responded cause your stauback comment was pretty retarded. please note that i listed CURRENT players and wasnt about to compile a list of all time tough qb's. like someone already noted you left jim kelly off one of your lists yet i didnt feel compelled to question your football intelligence over this faux pas.

thats a nice list you got there of wins when brady is getting flattened early and often. its not confirmed but at least you tried.

so every loss in the nfl is due to pressure? interresting but wrong. sometimes a team loses cause their d cant stop the run, yet their qb can remain upright all day. sometimes its special teams. many things other than having youre qb pressured can lead to a loss.

now lets look at bens FOUR career losses.

afccg vs. patriots- yes mental pressure
2005 vs. pats- no he handled the pressure fine and conducted a drive in the final 3 minutes to tie the game
2005 vs. colts- physical pressure? indirectly yes. returning from knee surgery and chipping a bone in his thumb
2005 vs. bengals- more physical pressure. he reinjures his thumb but keeps the team in it with over 300 yds passing and 3 tds. a special teams guffaw really contributed though.

see i can atleast admit ben falling to pressure whether it be physically or mentally. some brady fans cant do the same.

games ben has been injured/hammered/flattened but won, just off the top of my head
dallas
cleveland
jets
cincinatti
baltimore
tennessee
san diego
indianapolis


"Brady has 3 rings. He could be Liberace for all I care." exactly. i do know manning has been the best protected qb here recently and d. carr has been the least protected. i wonder where brady falls inbetween cause listening to litp i get the impression it has been closer to d. carr. but my memory just cant confirm that.

where should i start. i seem to remember your list had Bradshaw on it, s isnt it safe to assume Staubach should be? Jim Kelly wasnt on my list because, well, he shouldnt be. not in the top 10 over Brady or Aikman anyway. who on the next list do you bump? Tark,Fouts,Marino, Manning, Moon? ok, Moon. so Kelly is #15 fine.
you want it both ways it seems. first, every Brady loss was cited by you was because in all those games he faced pressure. so i point out he has won games where he faced the pressure and also note every QB is affected by pressure. then you turn it around on me and say not every game is lost because of pressure? who said it was?? its like having a discussion playing ring around the rosey. go in circles until something stops.

Yes, yes, you are right. physical pressure has made Brady lose on occassion. My point is that is true for ALL QB's. more pressure=more likely QB loses. it doesnt = lack of toughness or "happy feet".

also, a big difference when judging Brady. THe GUY FACED THE PRESSURE. early in his career. and won 3 Super Bowls in his first 4 full season. I'd say thats passing the test.
Ben gets his big test next sunday. im sure he'll do fine. Im not demeaning the kid.
still not sure why Brady should be for one playoff loss.

finally, i agree that hes's HARDLY been faced with a David Carr onslot. But hes hasnt had Marino type protection either.

Livinginthe past
01-28-2006, 09:19 AM
i still dont know where this post was going but i tried my best to address the points. if you follow what i have been saying you can infer that i think the pats o-line does an excellent job. it might require actually reading my posts in this thread but i stated when brady and manning are protected and dont get hit they win. simple. i dont care who the o-line is or where they were drafted. are you knocking the o-line for the past 4 years to support bradys toughness?

The fact is - you suggested that Manning and Brady are affected to a similar degree when faced by similar levels of physical pressure.

I say they are not - Brady clearly handles physical pressure better than Manning.

Brady's O-line for the majority of his career have been a bunch of blue collar who-dats and rejects - in their favor they have great personal motivation to make the best of their limited tools and they have possibly the best line coach in the whole of the NFL helping them to ply their trade.

You may want to bring this thread back to nonsense generalizations - but the fact remains that Brady is better at handling physical pressure than Manning - and that fact makes you wrong in your assertion that they are the same.

NM

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 10:28 AM
The fact is - you suggested that Manning and Brady are affected to a similar degree when faced by similar levels of physical pressure.

.

.

and that fact makes you wrong in your assertion that they are the same.

NM

so which one is it? did i suggest theyre affected to a similar degree or call them the same? stay focused and theres no need to try and twist my words to prove me wrong. fact is i have opinions that i dont need anyone to accept, and you seem to have opinions that MUST be accepted as FACT.

this is really akin to me saying i like keyshawn johnson better than randy moss cause he is tougher and likes to play in the middle of the field. he doesnt mind getting hit. of course no wr likes to get hit (well actually hines ward does) but he relishes the contact and tough wr roll. no way am i implying that johnson is better than moss. but he is definitely tougher. now does that mean i think moss and todd pinkston are the same? NO! but they are in the same mold of not liking contact. does that mean i think keyshawn and hines are the same? NO! but they have a similar degree of toughness.

Livinginthe past
01-28-2006, 11:02 AM
so which one is it? did i suggest theyre affected to a similar degree or call them the same? stay focused and theres no need to try and twist my words to prove me wrong. fact is i have opinions that i dont need anyone to accept, and you seem to have opinions that MUST be accepted as FACT.

this is really akin to me saying i like keyshawn johnson better than randy moss cause he is tougher and likes to play in the middle of the field. he doesnt mind getting hit. of course no wr likes to get hit (well actually hines ward does) but he relishes the contact and tough wr roll. no way am i implying that johnson is better than moss. but he is definitely tougher. now does that mean i think moss and todd pinkston are the same? NO! but they are in the same mold of not liking contact. does that mean i think keyshawn and hines are the same? NO! but they have a similar degree of toughness.

Yawnnnnn.

Tony trick No. 106 - when backed into a corner - plead the right of free speech.

Tony Trick No. 114 - Use utterly ridiculous, non-similar arguments to cloud the issue.

I cant help it that every single one of your opinions on the Patriots and their coaching/ playing staff are so one-eyed they would make a cyclops jealous.

Brady and Manning are not the same/similar/akin/comparable - however you want to phrase it - when it comes to dealing with physical pressure.

NM

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 11:27 AM
The fact is - you suggested that Manning and Brady are affected to a similar degree when faced by similar levels of physical pressure.

.

.

and that fact makes you wrong in your assertion that they are the same.

NMso which one is it?

youre giving me a complex. i feel like a claymation monster in a sinbad movie getting ready to be slayed in the smoke filled corner of the colliseum. sinbad always wins.

Livinginthe past
01-28-2006, 11:43 AM
so which one is it?

youre giving me a complex. i feel like a claymation monster in a sinbad movie getting ready to be slayed in the smoke filled corner of the colliseum. sinbad always wins.


brady hates to get hit and it shows in his play. kinda like manning. give them 5 seconds in the pocket and they will always win. collapse that pocket and they lose.

You tell me Tony - you were the one that said it.

'Kinda like' - is that similar?

If thats what you meant - then you are wrong.

NM

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 12:03 PM
and that fact makes you wrong in your assertion that they are the same.

NM
we're whittling it down now. what is it you said i said?

reading comprehension is a good thing.

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 12:07 PM
our resident patfans here seem rather tight lipped on what actually went wrong in that game. some insight and analysis would be cool. now i know patfans in general are used to calling their oppositions fans whiners and excuse makers when they talk about a loss to the mighty patriots but i dont think that would happen on this board after just discussing and giving reasons for a loss.

ive already offered my analysis. as a whole i think they were too distracted by shiny objects and maybe took their opponents lightly. tom succumbed to early pressure and him and the rest of the team started pressing and making uncharacteristic mistakes to compensate. or is it just that denver has the patriots number much like the patriots have had the steelers and colts number in the past?LITP?????? if brady wasnt rattled by the 3 very uncharacteristic early hits what happened?

3 to be 4
01-28-2006, 12:15 PM
so which one is it?

youre giving me a complex. i feel like a claymation monster in a sinbad movie getting ready to be slayed in the smoke filled corner of the colliseum. sinbad always wins.


did Sinbad make a lot of movies? I know his standup routine was hot about 10 years ago, but i dont remember a colliseum(or however ya spell it)

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 12:22 PM
did Sinbad make a lot of movies? I know his standup routine was hot about 10 years ago, but i dont remember a colliseum(or however ya spell it)

:dang: what? are you living in a "different world"? :sofunny: :cool:

(more like 15 years ago, he had jumped the shark once the 90's hit)

Livinginthe past
01-28-2006, 01:51 PM
we're whittling it down now. what is it you said i said?

reading comprehension is a good thing.

Tony Trick No.96 - When the last rites are being performed on Tony's side of the debate he will attempt to try and sidetrack it by using his well exercised skills of pedantry...anything to avoid defending his usual half baked theories.

Manning and Brady are not even similar.

Are they Tony?

NM

Livinginthe past
01-28-2006, 02:01 PM
LITP?????? if brady wasnt rattled by the 3 very uncharacteristic early hits what happened?

I dont think I have said anywhere that Brady does not ever get rattled when he is hit early and often - I merely stated that he is the best in the business at dealing with it.

I am more than willing to admit that it was the thought of the Blitzing LB pulling him down for a sack that tempted him to try and force the pass into Troy Browns hands.

It was 3rd down and the Pats had run 2 plays from inside the 10 already and got nowhere - Brady obviously, and mistakenly, thought they needed the 7 at that point.

He may have not had a great game by his own very high playoff standards but his final analysis wasn't too shabby 20/36 341yards 1TD 1INT (+1 INT on a last minute hail-mary to midfield)

These numbers do not compare with the sort of post-season implosion Manning has become famous for.

Plenty of teams have won at playoff level with QB stats similar to the ones Brady produced.

What really killed the Patriots was sloppy fumble turnovers - ones which could have been avoided with better handling/protection of the football.

NM

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 03:14 PM
I dont think I have said anywhere that Brady does not ever get rattled when he is hit early and often - I merely stated that he is the best in the business at dealing with it.

AS SHOWN IN DENVER. I REMEMBER WHEN K. WARNER WAS ONE OF THE BEST AT DEALING WITH IT TOO. YOU ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR LAST GAME

I am more than willing to admit that it was the thought of the Blitzing LB pulling him down for a sack that tempted him to try and force the pass into Troy Browns hands.

It was 3rd down and the Pats had run 2 plays from inside the 10 already and got nowhere - Brady obviously, and mistakenly, thought they needed the 7 at that point.

He may have not had a great game by his own very high playoff standards but his final analysis wasn't too shabby 20/36 341yards 1TD 1INT (+1 INT on a last minute hail-mary to midfield)

These numbers do not compare with the sort of post-season implosion Manning has become famous for.

Plenty of teams have won at playoff level with QB stats similar to the ones Brady produced.

What really killed the Patriots was sloppy fumble turnovers - ones which could have been avoided with better handling/protection of the football.

NMyoure bringing things closer to context litp. now look at the steelers defensive gameplan against manning vs denvers against brady. very similar. stopping the run or covering the wr wasnt the main priority. coincidence?

Livinginthe past
01-28-2006, 03:31 PM
youre bringing things closer to context litp. now look at the steelers defensive gameplan against manning vs denvers against brady. very similar. stopping the run or covering the wr wasnt the main priority. coincidence?

To be quite honest I dont think you can compare the two.

The Steelers pretty much owned the Colts in every aspect of that game - Manning was hurried all of the time and the game should not have come down to an FG attempt to tie at the end of regulation.

In the 2nd half the Pats moved the ball at will against Denver - Brady was slicing them apart.

He had quite alot of trouble dealing with the Denver mass blitz in the 1st half - but he obviously sat down with the co-ords and worked out a better protection scheme for the 2nd half.

What became apparent in the 2nd half was that Denver could not bring enough heat on Brady in the 2nd half without committing to the all-out blitz - when they rushed the front 4 they couldnt touch him.

I say again - the only thing that lost this game for the Pats was the turnovers in terrible parts of the field - the Broncos longest TD drive was 24 yards.

I think you are selling the Steelers short - this year they are the real thing on D - very dominant - the Denver D / Special Teams had a day in a million where everything went their way including contentious refereeing calls - against the Steelers they were exposed.

Im kicking myself as a Pats fan - 7/8 times out of 10 we would have won that game.

NM

3 to be 4
01-28-2006, 03:53 PM
if Faulk and Hobbs dont make those fumbles the Patriots would have had a decent 10 point lead by late in the 3rd and been in total control of the game. Browns fumble was another 7 points.
Denver did not win because they rattled Brady. Denver won because the Patriots handed them 17 points. Actually 24, as Brady is responsible for his screw up too. Forcing the ball because he was looking for a TD too badly, a mistake in judgement, not because of "happy feet". His performance may have been less than usual, but its NOT what cost them the game. It was ineptitude in the ballhandling department and the team and coaching staff should be held accountable for it.
Just dont pin it on some idiotic "happy feet" arguement. If he threw 4 ints and personally gave up 21 points yes. But thats not the game i saw.

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 04:03 PM
To be quite honest I dont think you can compare the two.

BUT I DID, IN ITS SIMPLEST FORMS SHOW HOW HITTING THE "2 BEST QB'S IN THE GAME" WAS THE KEYS TO WINNING THE GAME.

The Steelers pretty much owned the Colts in every aspect of that game - Manning was hurried all of the time and the game should not have come down to an FG attempt to tie at the end of regulation.

GREAT GAMEPLAN TO HIT HIM EARLY AND OFTEN AND TO CONFUSE HIM/CATCH HIM OFF GUARD. MIX THAT WITH A SUPERB GAMEPLAN BY THE O-COORD AND THE STEELERS HAD THEIR A-GAME

In the 2nd half the Pats moved the ball at will against Denver - Brady was slicing them apart.
VERY TRUE BUT TOO LITTLE TOO LATE. PATS ARE MOST EFFECTIVE WHEN THEY START OUT LIKE THIS

He had quite alot of trouble dealing with the Denver mass blitz in the 1st half - but he obviously sat down with the co-ords and worked out a better protection scheme for the 2nd half.

ONCE AGAIN, TOO LITTLE TOO LATE. THESE HALF TIME AJUSTMENTS ARE THE TYPES THAT MAY HAVE BEEN IN PREGAME WITH CRENNELL AND WEISS

What became apparent in the 2nd half was that Denver could not bring enough heat on Brady in the 2nd half without committing to the all-out blitz - when they rushed the front 4 they couldnt touch him.

BY THAT POINT THE DAMAGE HAD BEEN DONE. PERCEIVED PRESSURE WAS WORKING JUST AS GOOD AS ACTUAL PRESSURE

I say again - the only thing that lost this game for the Pats was the turnovers in terrible parts of the field - the Broncos longest TD drive was 24 yards.

3 SCORING DRIVES WERE STARTED FROM THE 1,1, AND 12 YD LINE. YOU DO THE MATH. I ALREADY KNOW

I think you are selling the Steelers short - this year they are the real thing on D - very dominant - the Denver D / Special Teams had a day in a million where everything went their way including contentious refereeing calls - against the Steelers they were exposed.

STEELERS USED THE SAME DEFENSIVE MINDSET AGAINST DENVER AS THEY DID INDY. PRESSURE THE QB AND THEY WILL CRUMBLE. JAKE JUST PROVED TO CRUMBLE MORE THAN MANNING DID (4 TO)

Im kicking myself as a Pats fan - 7/8 times out of 10 we would have won that game.

FUNNY, I SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT THE 2001 STEELERS VS PATS

NM

as far as qb's mental and physical toughness goes i will use this example as how far ben has come since last years champ game:

2nd qtr. :15 on the clock. ben rolls out to his left in a scramble and throws over 2 defenders outreached arms to hines in the back of the endzone for what proves to be the game clinching td. (this after a jerome td was nullified and penalized) not exactly montana to clark, but far removed from the int for a td vs. harrison last year or even bradys 100 yd pass to bailey. in that one instance, ben made a champion calibur play. just like in one instance brady made a rookie type mistake. however brady is still a champ and ben is still a rookie/sophmore type qb who hasnt done nothing YET.

3 to be 4
01-28-2006, 04:08 PM
as far as qb's mental and physical toughness goes i will use this example as how far ben has come since last years champ game:

2nd qtr. :15 on the clock. ben rolls out to his left in a scramble and throws over 2 defenders outreached arms to hines in the back of the endzone for what proves to be the game clinching td. (this after a jerome td was nullified and penalized) not exactly montana to clark, but far removed from the int for a td vs. harrison last year or even bradys 100 yd pass to bailey. in that one instance, ben made a champion calibur play. just like in one instance brady made a rookie type mistake. however brady is still a champ and ben is still a rookie/sophmore type qb who hasnt done nothing YET.

Assuming your last sentence was sarcasm..........

oh, ok. one weekend totally flip flops everything either guy has ever accomplished on the football field. ok, makes sense now. Brady is a wimp and Ben is a hall of famer.

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 04:10 PM
as Brady is responsible for his screw up too. Forcing the ball because he was looking for a TD too badly, .

i happen to think the veteran faulk and ever dependable to not screw up troy brown, were "forcing" the issue too, because they saw tom was suffering from pressure and not gonna be able to carry the load by himself. i think the WHOLE offense started pressing and it threw their WHOLE offense off of its game.

great defensive strategy by the broncos defensive staff to hit brady early and often (even if it didnt amount to sacks) it rattled the whole team into forcing mistakes and losing focus.

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 04:13 PM
Assuming your last sentence was sarcasm..........

oh, ok. one weekend totally flip flops everything either guy has ever accomplished on the football field. ok, makes sense now. Brady is a wimp and Ben is a hall of famer.

hmmm....i was just using pats logic to justify the fact that manning sucks. i forgot this was a 1 way street.

and before you accuse me of putting ben into the hall of fame dont think i have lost sight of the fact that last week vs. denver ben threw a potential int. to champ that was broken up by hines and one to foxworth in the endzone that was broken up by washington. all this while the score was 0-0.

sometimes you catch the breaks. sometimes your lucky......

unless youre tom brady and make everything happen on sheer talent and godliness.

3 to be 4
01-28-2006, 04:20 PM
i happen to think the veteran faulk and ever dependable to not screw up troy brown, were "forcing" the issue too, because they saw tom was suffering from pressure and not gonna be able to carry the load by himself. i think the WHOLE offense started pressing and it threw their WHOLE offense off of its game.

great defensive strategy by the broncos defensive staff to hit brady early and often (even if it didnt amount to sacks) it rattled the whole team into forcing mistakes and losing focus.


Tom WAS carrying the load. He was dealing with it and the momentum had totally changed. they were moving the ball with the 3-0 lead and Faulk coughed it up.
then Hobbs. bm boom its 10-3. Had those fumbles not happened the Patriots could have gone into the half leading 10-0.
so if Brady was under pressure, it came more from his own teamates screwing the momentum up. And YES, he made the HUGE blunder himself. And then BRown gave away another 7 points.
but without the total screwups by Faulk, Hobbs, and Brown, Brady played well enough for the Patriots to win that game easily.
but hes still not as great as Roetlisburger, i know.

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 04:37 PM
but hes still not as great as Roetlisburger, i know.

atleast not this year.

but over all bradys 6 year career far surpasses bens 2 year career. (after all i know enough about football to realize theres no way ben could throw for as many yards in 2 years as brady has in 6 and for ben to be going for his 3rd lombardi trophy in his 2nd year is rediculous)

btw how did brady handle the pressure in his 1st afccgame? did he not get pulled in favor of the veteran? save the injury bull crap. we all know how belichick is.:cool:

Livinginthe past
01-28-2006, 04:38 PM
as far as qb's mental and physical toughness goes i will use this example as how far ben has come since last years champ game:

2nd qtr. :15 on the clock. ben rolls out to his left in a scramble and throws over 2 defenders outreached arms to hines in the back of the endzone for what proves to be the game clinching td. (this after a jerome td was nullified and penalized) not exactly montana to clark, but far removed from the int for a td vs. harrison last year or even bradys 100 yd pass to bailey. in that one instance, ben made a champion calibur play. just like in one instance brady made a rookie type mistake. however brady is still a champ and ben is still a rookie/sophmore type qb who hasnt done nothing YET.

I just explained to you in very simplistic terms that the pressure exerted on Brady in the 1st was not the over-riding factor in the Pats loss.

How can you explain away the fact that Brady was moving the ball with ease in the 2nd half if he was so rattled by the early hits?

Manning had the confidence knocked from him early and never regained it - Brady clearly had his back when he was slicing the Denver D to pieces.

In the 2nd half the Pats moved the ball at will against Denver - Brady was slicing them apart. - LITP
VERY TRUE BUT TOO LITTLE TOO LATE. PATS ARE MOST EFFECTIVE WHEN THEY START OUT LIKE THIS.

Im not sure what to make of some of your other arguments - you say the Patriots are at their best when they play well 1st and 2nd half as opposed to just the 2nd half? Wow I think maybe you are in line for some sort of analyst job with that one , Mr Madden.

He had quite alot of trouble dealing with the Denver mass blitz in the 1st half - but he obviously sat down with the co-ords and worked out a better protection scheme for the 2nd half. - LITP

ONCE AGAIN, TOO LITTLE TOO LATE. THESE HALF TIME AJUSTMENTS ARE THE TYPES THAT MAY HAVE BEEN IN PREGAME WITH CRENNELL AND WEISS.

Again, another wishy washy argument - suddenly ex-coords are being thrown into the mix? A team is allowed to have a bad 1st half and still win Tony.

What became apparent in the 2nd half was that Denver could not bring enough heat on Brady in the 2nd half without committing to the all-out blitz - when they rushed the front 4 they couldnt touch him. - LITP

BY THAT POINT THE DAMAGE HAD BEEN DONE. PERCEIVED PRESSURE WAS WORKING JUST AS GOOD AS ACTUAL PRESSURE.

That will be the 'perceived pressure' when Brady was throwing for 220 yards in the 2nd half was it? How can I put this any clearer...... until the blown blocking assignment on the blitzing LB Brady had thrown without any degree of discomfort in that half.

STEELERS USED THE SAME DEFENSIVE MINDSET AGAINST DENVER AS THEY DID INDY. PRESSURE THE QB AND THEY WILL CRUMBLE. JAKE JUST PROVED TO CRUMBLE MORE THAN MANNING DID (4 TO).

Wow Tony not only an analyst but a defensive genius too?

Pressure the QB and he will crumble...who would have thought?

You might even want to copyrite that one.

NM

3 to be 4
01-28-2006, 04:53 PM
atleast not this year.

but over all bradys 6 year career far surpasses bens 2 year career. (after all i know enough about football to realize theres no way ben could throw for as many yards in 2 years as brady has in 6 and for ben to be going for his 3rd lombardi trophy in his 2nd year is rediculous)

btw how did brady handle the pressure in his 1st afccgame? did he not get pulled in favor of the veteran? save the injury bull crap. we all know how belichick is.:cool:


ok, you are either just being the Devil's Advocate or you reeaally dont know what you are talking about. Brady wasnt "pulled", he got his frickin ankle rolled over. His stats at the time were FINE, i believe 12-18-102, and they were driving down the field. On the play he was injured he had just completed his best pass of the day to Brown. so he very well could have had them up 14-3 at the half as Bledsoe did. As Ive said before, Bledsoe has been given WAY to much credit for his performance in that game. He reverted back to his futile self in the 3rd qtr that let the Steelers back in the game. He completed 3 very nice passes in the 4th to extend drives. But overall he was 10-22 and got away with 2 crazy plays, one a behind the back insanity that thank god didnt get pucked off, one a sure INT that the Steelers should have run back for a TD in the 4th.

i know its Brady's fault he got hurt in that game after the same ankle got rolled over twice
but overall his first AFCCG game performance was better than Roethlisburgers.
lets see how Ben does in his first SB if the game is tied with 1:21 left and no timeouts and his defense totally gassed so that the game HAS to be won right there.

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 04:54 PM
I just explained to you in very simplistic terms that the pressure exerted on Brady in the 1st was not the over-riding factor in the Pats loss.

How can you explain away the fact that Brady was moving the ball with ease in the 2nd half if he was so rattled by the early hits?defensive changes? prevent or the bend but dont break defense?

Manning had the confidence knocked from him early and never regained it - Brady clearly had his back when he was slicing the Denver D to pieces.wasnt bradys 100 int in the latter parts of the game?



Im not sure what to make of some of your other arguments - you say the Patriots are at their best when they play well 1st and 2nd half as opposed to just the 2nd half? Wow I think maybe you are in line for some sort of analyst job with that one , Mr Madden.arent all teams? after all, "ALL qb's dont like to get hit and do worse under pressure"



Again, another wishy washy argument - suddenly ex-coords are being thrown into the mix? A team is allowed to have a bad 1st half and still win Tony.

did i not say "may have been"? could you perhaps be in denial that the loss of wiess, crennell, and mangini may have a negative effect on the patriots dynasty run?



That will be the 'perceived pressure' when Brady was throwing for 220 yards in the 2nd half was it? How can I put this any clearer...... until the blown blocking assignment on the blitzing LB Brady had thrown without any degree of discomfort in that half.

once again, too little too late. denvers defense had done its damage by that point. rattle brady and you rattle the whole team. typical house of cards.



Wow Tony not only an analyst but a defensive genius too?

Pressure the QB and he will crumble...who would have thought?

You might even want to copyrite that one.
so youre admitting it works on the invinceable tom brady?

NM

if you keep giving buttons to press i will most likely continue to push them.:sofunny:

3 to be 4
01-28-2006, 05:06 PM
so youre admitting it works on the invinceable tom brady?


yes. it works ON ALL QUARTERBACKS!!!!!!! pressure on any QB will make any QB perform with lesser results. Unitas, Bradshaw, Montana, Staubach.

maybe not a tough guy like Roethlisburger, though

Livinginthe past
01-28-2006, 05:11 PM
It seems futile to debate with Tony sometimes! He starts off okay...then before we know it he is moving goal posts and making crazy assertions without any evidence.

Im pretty sure he has been owned in this thread - ill leave it at that - Tony clearly has a stamina for the utterly inane that I cannot match.

If you are simply here to 'push buttons' by making deliberately stupid arguments Tony - you could at least do us the favor of keeping it in the Blast Furnace - this is supposed to be for talking football I believe

NM

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 05:19 PM
It seems futile to debate with Tony sometimes! He starts off okay...then before we know it he is moving goal posts and making crazy assertions without any evidence.

Im pretty sure he has been owned in this thread - ill leave it at that - Tony clearly has a stamina for the utterly inane that I cannot match.

If you are simply here to 'push buttons' by making deliberately stupid arguments Tony - you could at least do us the favor of keeping it in the Blast Furnace - this is supposed to be for talking football I believe

NMlitp- owning someone is a great accomplishment. but dont put me on a boat across the atlantic just yet.

to put an end to the silliness that this thread has become-

you are right and cowher, shanahan, and myself are wrong.

read their press conferences these past few weeks (be sure to read inbetween the lines), listen to the talking heads and their viewpoints on the matter, watch the games and how they unfold and infer whatever you want from the results. im not taking anything away from brady. but it is common knowledge that teams who pass for more than 300 yds are more likely to lose than they are to win here recently. common knowledge that the key to beating brady and manning is hitting them early. they rattle easilly (this is football talk btw).

everybody! if litp dont agree with your opinion please take it to the blast furnace!

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 05:20 PM
so youre admitting it works on the invinceable tom brady?


yes. it works ON ALL QUARTERBACKS!!!!!!! pressure on any QB will make any QB perform with lesser results. Unitas, Bradshaw, Montana, Staubach.

maybe not a tough guy like Roethlisburger, thoughor brady. that dude is tough as nails.

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 05:29 PM
ok, you are either just being the Devil's Advocate or dont be trying to get smart on me now.
lets see how Ben does in his first SB if the game is tied with 1:21 left and no timeouts and his defense totally gassed so that the game HAS to be won right there.

i relish that opportunity. hes proven he can do just that plenty of times in his short career. (dallas, jax, san diego, pats, jets, etc. the 2 minute drill is nothing to him) in fact i contend had he not made the game saving tackle against nick harper in the colts game ben wouldve driven the team down to score a td with a minute left in the game.

just remember tom brady didnt invent, nor does he have a monopoly on the game winning drive (contrary to what patfans believe)

3 to be 4
01-28-2006, 07:07 PM
i relish that opportunity. hes proven he can do just that plenty of times in his short career. (dallas, jax, san diego, pats, jets, etc. the 2 minute drill is nothing to him) in fact i contend had he not made the game saving tackle against nick harper in the colts game ben wouldve driven the team down to score a td with a minute left in the game.

just remember tom brady didnt invent, nor does he have a monopoly on the game winning drive (contrary to what patfans believe)

nobody said he did. last time i checked Elway has the record with like 61 of them or so.
And Montana,Unitas,and Starr too. And dont forget a guy named Staubach. Its not just the number but when its done. Brady happens to be the best at it today.
Ben has had some great ones. theres just something about doing it to win a championship that just cant be blown off. Or assumed that another can do until he does.

tony hipchest
01-28-2006, 07:21 PM
is that a testament to brady or a knock on his supporting cast? plummer had a great # of come from behind wins with the cardinals.

elway does hold that record. and theres no way a 2nd year player like ben could ever match the accomplishments of a 6 year veteran like brady (3 sb in his 1st 2 years just dont add up). us meager steelerfans would just be happy with winning 1 belichick trophy regardless of whos at qb.

3 to be 4
01-28-2006, 10:53 PM
[QUOTE=tony hipchest]is that a testament to brady or a knock on his supporting cast? plummer had a great # of come from behind wins with the cardinals.QUOTE]

I believe I addressed that already. Were any of Plummers come from behind win in the Super Bowl???

tony hipchest
09-13-2006, 01:49 PM
The idea was you were going to show us how Brady was affected in a Peyton Manning like fashion once he got hit early - you are saying his game deteriorates massively if he feels the heat.

Im telling you he couldnt have won all those regular season games, all those playoff games and all those SB's by being noticeably rattled after a big early hit!

We'll be waiting for your numerous examples of Brady wilting under the pressure of a "big early hit" - im sure you can list one Brady example for every Manning example we give you.

NMhey! whadda you know? thats 2 games in a row where brady wilts after getting hit early. a fumble returned for a td is a great way to open up the season. sub .500 completion %. a bad int. 163 yds passing. offensively getting handled by the lowly bills! good thing dick jauron and the pats ty warren bailed brady out this time.

(damn this was a good thread. of course it wouldnt be as great if i were wrong.)

anyways the formula is in place. hit brady early and he will lose focus and start making uncharacteristic mistakes. he has a tendency to fold when rattled.

augustashark
09-13-2006, 02:09 PM
:crying01: = Litp

:bowdown: = Tony

Sorry, but I call'em as I see'em!

Cape Cod Steel Head
09-14-2006, 02:51 PM
Come on. He said that he was thinking about Branch, and how he doesn't have anyone to throw the ball to anymore.

MasterOfPuppets
09-14-2006, 03:06 PM
Come on. He said that he was thinking about Branch, and how he doesn't have anyone to throw the balls to anymore.
:sofunny: