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View Full Version : 4th Qtr. Collapse not a coincidence anymore


Hayeksheroes
12-08-2009, 12:17 PM
I am really starting to believe that the 4th QTR collapse is no longer a coincidence. I think teams are game planning around the 4th. If they can just hang around, then they unleash their LeBeau killing strategy and win the 4th.

LeBeau is a master strategist, who can make the right adjustments given time. The collapses have been so spectacular, it seems as though the opposing team have LeBeau's number. They are tending to save their zone blitz killers until the 4th instead of the 1st quarter. That leaves LeBeau little time to adjust and counteract. As a result, you have the collapse.

devilsdancefloor
12-08-2009, 12:22 PM
i think we just play like shit in the 4th quarter.

The_WARDen
12-08-2009, 02:43 PM
my take is that they suck against the pass...seems like the other team has to pass come the 4th qtr and the defense gets exposed.

makes me wonder what the opposing OC is thinking half the time...why bother running the ball?

plenewken
12-08-2009, 02:44 PM
I am really starting to believe that the 4th QTR collapse is no longer a coincidence. I think teams are game planning around the 4th. If they can just hang around, then they unleash their LeBeau killing strategy and win the 4th.

LeBeau is a master strategist, who can make the right adjustments given time. The collapses have been so spectacular, it seems as though the opposing team have LeBeau's number. They are tending to save their zone blitz killers until the 4th instead of the 1st quarter. That leaves LeBeau little time to adjust and counteract. As a result, you have the collapse.

What's not a coincidence either is our slow starts on offense.

PIT-TEN: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
CHI-PIT: 7pts 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CLE: 0 pts in 1st quarter
PIT-MIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time
DEN-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 9 pts at 1/2 time
KC-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter
BAL-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-OAK: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time.

So in 9 games out of 12, we haven't scored more than 7 pts in the first quarter. In 5 games out of 12, we haven't scored a single point in the first quarter!!!

I know, everyone thinks it's the defense's fault if we're at 6-6. I'm sorry but I see it differently and the numbers prove than I'm right. We can't friggin' score early in the game therefore we don't put pressure on the opponent. It's obvious.

The_WARDen
12-08-2009, 02:47 PM
What's not a coincidence either is our slow starts on offense.

PIT-TEN: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
CHI-PIT: 7pts 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CLE: 0 pts in 1st quarter
PIT-MIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time
DEN-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 9 pts at 1/2 time
KC-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter
BAL-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-OAK: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time.

So in 9 games out of 12, we haven't scored more than 7 pts in the first quarter. In 5 games out of 12, we haven't scored a single point in the first quarter.

I know, it's the defense's fault. I'm sorry but I see it differently and the numbers prove than I'm right. We can't friggin' score early in the game therefore we don't put pressure on the opponent. It's obvious.

So, being up 4 at the start of the 4th and scoring 14 pts in the 4th doesn't put pressure on the opponent? It's obviously that didn't turn out so well.

plenewken
12-08-2009, 02:55 PM
So, being up 4 at the start of the 4th and scoring 14 pts in the 4th doesn't put pressure on the opponent? It's obviously that didn't turn out so well.

You must have missed something Sunday. We were up by 4 after 3 quarters (big friggin' deal! ) with our defense playing solid. Then THEY scored, not us, so we ended up being 3 behind.
And it happened again twice. We NEVER had more than a 4 pts lead against them. Considering the weapons we have on offense, the stats I showed you speak for themselves. We can't friggin' start games and pin the opponent.

The_WARDen
12-08-2009, 03:00 PM
You must have missed something Sunday. We were up by 4 after 3 quarters (big friggin' deal! ) with our defense playing solid. Then THEY scored, not us, so we ended up being 3 behind.
And it happened again twice. We NEVER had more than a 4 pts lead against them. Considering the weapons we have on offense, the stats I showed you speak for themselves. We can't friggin' start games and pin the opponent.

The offense played like crap but the team was still up 4 AND scored 14 points in the 4th. That means that defense would have had to :poop: the bed to lose that game and they did by giving up 3 TDs in 1 qtr to a team that had 10 total TDs in the previous 11 games.

*Newsflash* By the way, Steelers are known for great defense. It is their trademark. That's why people are stunned and why it is so EMBARASSING!

plenewken
12-08-2009, 03:08 PM
The offense played like crap but the team was still up 4 AND scored 14 points in the 4th. That means that defense would have had to :poop: the bed to lose that game and they did by giving up 3 TDs in 1 qtr to a team that had 10 total TDs in the previous 11 games.

*Newsflash* By the way, Steelers are known for great defense. It is their trademark. That's why people are stunned and why it is so EMBARASSING!

I know that Defense is our trademark and by the way, despite their meltdown Sunday, they're still ranked higher than our offense. 5th vs 7th.

What I'm saying is the Steelers offense is unable to put a lot of points on the board early in the game, despite all the weapons they have. Scoring 0 points in the first quarter 5 times in 12 games is p*ss poor.
Our defense plays without 2 of our best players, Polamalu who is by far the best player we have, and Aaron Smith who's also a key element.

Our offense needs to wake up also and play 60 minutes, not 30. That's all I'm saying.

The_WARDen
12-08-2009, 03:12 PM
I know that Defense is our trademark and by the way, despite their meltdown Sunday, they're still ranked higher than our offense. 5th vs 7th.

What I'm saying is the Steelers offense is unable to put a lot of points on the board early in the game, despite all the weapons they have. Scoring 0 points in the first quarter 5 times in 12 games is p*ss poor.
Our defense plays without 2 of our best players, Polamalu who is by far the best player we have, and Aaron Smith who's also a key element.

Our offense needs to wake up also and play 60 minutes, not 30. That's all I'm saying.

I really don't care about rankings because I heard this week that Green Bay has the #1 rated defense...so, that's what rankings mean.

The offense played like crap but still put up 24 points. That should be enough to win that game against that opponent.

Would I love to see the offense score 40? YES! They struggled but when it came down to it they gave the lead back to defense twice at the end and they couldn't hold it either time.

So, I guess we'll agree to disagree.
:drink:

plenewken
12-08-2009, 03:43 PM
I really don't care about rankings because I heard this week that Green Bay has the #1 rated defense...so, that's what rankings mean.

The offense played like crap but still put up 24 points. That should be enough to win that game against that opponent.

Would I love to see the offense score 40? YES! They struggled but when it came down to it they gave the lead back to defense twice at the end and they couldn't hold it either time.

So, I guess we'll agree to disagree.
:drink:

Hey, I enjoy debating with you. Let's just say we have a different perspective.
And I was not just talking about Sunday's game, I showed you what happened since the beginning of the season. If you substract the points given away by our special teams, I'd say our defense played ok considering the injuries. Our offense on the other hand played below expectations since Day1. Mendenhall got benched before he wasn't working hard enough in practice, right? I don't remember the same happening to a defensive player ..... so far.

Have a good one.

Rick5895
12-08-2009, 04:06 PM
What's not a coincidence either is our slow starts on offense.

PIT-TEN: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
CHI-PIT: 7pts 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CLE: 0 pts in 1st quarter
PIT-MIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time
DEN-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 9 pts at 1/2 time
KC-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter
BAL-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-OAK: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time.

So in 9 games out of 12, we haven't scored more than 7 pts in the first quarter. In 5 games out of 12, we haven't scored a single point in the first quarter!!!

I know, everyone thinks it's the defense's fault if we're at 6-6. I'm sorry but I see it differently and the numbers prove than I'm right. We can't friggin' score early in the game therefore we don't put pressure on the opponent. It's obvious.

Don't mean to jump into the fray, but I agree with the statement. Our D has been a huge disappointment late in games, there is no denying that. BUt what there is also no denying is that offensively we do not score enough early when we have the opportunities, thus making the other teams O 1 dimensional. Sundays game is a prime example of why our offense needs to take some blame in this 6-6 season. Sure we scored 24 points and that should be enough to win, but in the first half, when we could have put the game out of reach we scored 3 friggin points in 3 red zone trips. With the talent this O has and with all the "big Guns" healthy we should be scoring a lot more than that. We should have come out of that 1st half no worse than a 20-6 lead. Add the 14 points in the 4th and we have 34. But my guess is Oakland would have to become 1 dimensional at that point which makes playing Defense a lot easier.
IMO

steelerjim58
12-08-2009, 04:12 PM
Hey, I enjoy debating with you. Let's just say we have a different perspective.
And I was not just talking about Sunday's game, I showed you what happened since the beginning of the season. If you substract the points given away by our special teams, I'd say our defense played ok considering the injuries. Our offense on the other hand played below expectations since Day1. Mendenhall got benched before he wasn't working hard enough in practice, right? I don't remember the same happening to a defensive player ..... so far.

Have a good one.

I have been standing up for the d all along. In our 6 losses theoffense has scored 7 points or less in the second half 4 times. And 10 or less 8 times total.with the exception of Sunday the d has easily played well enough in every loss for the team to have won.

Gnutella
12-08-2009, 04:21 PM
I'd rather a unit start slow and gain momentum (offense) than start fast and lose momentum (defense).

SteelGhost
12-08-2009, 04:24 PM
Maybe King Solomon would put the "blame" as follows 25 % on ofense, 25 % on defense , 25 % on special teams and 25 % on coaching staff :chuckle:

Kidding aside, I think this is a nice debate, there are solid points on both sides :thumbsup:

The lack of offensive production in the first half is a fact, so is the lack of defense in the fourth quarter :noidea:

xvdougl
12-08-2009, 05:56 PM
I think our O is leaving the D in bad spots so often in the first 3/4 of the game they may be out of gas at the end! Add that to the injuries and turnovers ......

rich4eagle
12-08-2009, 06:19 PM
:tt04::tt02::tt02::tt03::tt03:I am really starting to believe that the 4th QTR collapse is no longer a coincidence. I think teams are game planning around the 4th. If they can just hang around, then they unleash their LeBeau killing strategy and win the 4th.

LeBeau is a master strategist, who can make the right adjustments given time. The collapses have been so spectacular, it seems as though the opposing team have LeBeau's number. They are tending to save their zone blitz killers until the 4th instead of the 1st quarter. That leaves LeBeau little time to adjust and counteract. As a result, you have the collapse.

It is not Lebeau, it is Tomlin he calls the big strategy.. I was certain after we scored too fast last week we would lose again.

This team has failed all year to put games out of reach and then figure ways to lose.

Against KC we punted from their 38 on fourth and one in overtime. That is the dumbest of dumbest ever. We gained 18 yards on that punt and KC got all but five back on the first play.. STUPID CALL................not LeBeau's fault

What should be under scruitiny more than anything else is Tomlin's game day play calling offense and defense

HometownGal
12-08-2009, 06:27 PM
What's not a coincidence either is our slow starts on offense.

PIT-TEN: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
CHI-PIT: 7pts 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CLE: 0 pts in 1st quarter
PIT-MIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time
DEN-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 9 pts at 1/2 time
KC-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter
BAL-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-OAK: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time.

So in 9 games out of 12, we haven't scored more than 7 pts in the first quarter. In 5 games out of 12, we haven't scored a single point in the first quarter!!!

I know, everyone thinks it's the defense's fault if we're at 6-6. I'm sorry but I see it differently and the numbers prove than I'm right. We can't friggin' score early in the game therefore we don't put pressure on the opponent. It's obvious.

Offense is paid to put enough points on the board by the END OF THE GAME to win it.

Defense is paid to keep opponents off the scoreboard to secure the win.

It absolutely blows my mind that some of you feel the Steelers O is to blame for their less than stellar season. :banging: The Steelers O has LEADS in the 4th quarter which are squandered away by sloppy tackling and a secondary that has more holes than Tony's favorite cheese. If this past Sunday's game doesn't open your eyes to how pourous our secondary is, I don't know what it's going to take. :shake02:

Nadroj 20
12-08-2009, 06:31 PM
What's not a coincidence either is our slow starts on offense.

PIT-TEN: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
CHI-PIT: 7pts 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CLE: 0 pts in 1st quarter
PIT-MIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time
DEN-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-CIN: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 9 pts at 1/2 time
KC-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter
BAL-PIT: 0 pts in 1st quarter, 7 pts at 1/2 time
PIT-OAK: 3 pts in 1st quarter, 10 pts at 1/2 time.

So in 9 games out of 12, we haven't scored more than 7 pts in the first quarter. In 5 games out of 12, we haven't scored a single point in the first quarter!!!

I know, everyone thinks it's the defense's fault if we're at 6-6. I'm sorry but I see it differently and the numbers prove than I'm right. We can't friggin' score early in the game therefore we don't put pressure on the opponent. It's obvious.
:doh: Defensive problems cant be ignored, theyve collapsed at the worse times during games....

Corey120120
12-08-2009, 08:50 PM
Well at least were not Detroit fans. lol. The O isnt starting good and the D isnt ending good not a good combo if you ask me.

BozMan
12-08-2009, 09:02 PM
Offense is paid to put enough points on the board by the END OF THE GAME to win it.

Defense is paid to keep opponents off the scoreboard to secure the win.

It absolutely blows my mind that some of you feel the Steelers O is to blame for their less than stellar season. :banging: The Steelers O has LEADS in the 4th quarter which are squandered away by sloppy tackling and a secondary that has more holes than Tony's favorite cheese. If this past Sunday's game doesn't open your eyes to how pourous our secondary is, I don't know what it's going to take. :shake02:

I don't see why it has to be a one or the other type of decision.

The defense definitely deserves a large MAJORITY of the blame. The lack of takeaways, missed tackles, blown coverages, giving up conversions on 3rd and long, and 4th quarter collapses are all well known.

However, the offense deserves to shoulder at least SOME blame. The biggest issues, IMO, are the lack or production in the red zone and inconsistency on 3rd down.

plenewken
12-08-2009, 09:12 PM
Offense is paid to put enough points on the board by the END OF THE GAME to win it.

Defense is paid to keep opponents off the scoreboard to secure the win.

It absolutely blows my mind that some of you feel the Steelers O is to blame for their less than stellar season. :banging: The Steelers O has LEADS in the 4th quarter which are squandered away by sloppy tackling and a secondary that has more holes than Tony's favorite cheese. If this past Sunday's game doesn't open your eyes to how pourous our secondary is, I don't know what it's going to take. :shake02:

Like I said before, let's agree to disagree. But rather than fighting over opinions, I brought facts. Why don't you do the same and show me when the defense let the opponent come back to beat us, besides last Sunday.

I give you PIT-OAK just to be nice because our offense stunk up the joint for 45mn, to the point of trailing 3 times in the game.

Sorry to repeat myself but had our offense done a half-decent job during 3 quarters, we wouldn't have been trailing once in the game, I repeat, not once, regardless of what our porous defense did.

OK, you have only 5 games to look at in detail, and please don't include the games where our ST screwed up. I pointed out our offensive problems, I want to see our Defensive problems, not ST.

Thanks.

Nadroj 20
12-08-2009, 09:23 PM
Like I said before, let's agree to disagree. But rather than fighting over opinions, I brought facts. Why don't you do the same and show me when the defense let the opponent come back to beat us, besides last Sunday.

I give you PIT-OAK just to be nice because our offense stunk up the joint for 45mn, to the point of trailing 3 times in the game.

Sorry to repeat myself but had our offense done a half-decent job during 3 quarters, we wouldn't have been trailing once in the game, I repeat, not once, regardless of what our porous defense did.

OK, you have only 5 games to look at in detail, and please don't include the games where our ST screwed up. I pointed out our offensive problems, I want to see our Defensive problems, not ST.

Thanks.

Heres a stat for you in FIVE of our six losses we have been WINNING in the 4th Quarter only to crap the lead away and fall short :coffee:

X-Terminator
12-09-2009, 12:38 AM
Like I said before, let's agree to disagree. But rather than fighting over opinions, I brought facts. Why don't you do the same and show me when the defense let the opponent come back to beat us, besides last Sunday.

I give you PIT-OAK just to be nice because our offense stunk up the joint for 45mn, to the point of trailing 3 times in the game.

Sorry to repeat myself but had our offense done a half-decent job during 3 quarters, we wouldn't have been trailing once in the game, I repeat, not once, regardless of what our porous defense did.

OK, you have only 5 games to look at in detail, and please don't include the games where our ST screwed up. I pointed out our offensive problems, I want to see our Defensive problems, not ST.

Thanks.

The first Bengals game would be a good start. Had a 20-9 lead at the end of the 3rd quarter...ended up losing 23-20 thanks to the defense shitting the bed and allowing 14 points in the 4th quarter. Any decent defense should be able to protect an 11-point lead in the 4th quarter...except this one. They also had a 7-point lead on the Bears in week 2 and the defense allowed 10 points in the 4th quarter and the Steelers lost. And on the flip side, the Steelers had a 28-0 lead in the Chargers game, only to see them end up almost coming back. The D allowed 21 points in the 4th quarter, and had the O not stepped up and kicked in 10 of their own in the 4th, they probably lose that game. So for all of the flack that the offense has gotten for not scoring enough, here was one instance where they actually DID score early and often and ended up having to bail the defense out when they started hemorrhaging points late.

steelwalls
12-09-2009, 01:08 AM
Heres a stat for you in FIVE of our six losses we have been WINNING in the 4th Quarter only to crap the lead away and fall short :coffee:


Yeap, pretty much all the stats I need. I could see 2 maybe 3, but 5 of the 6? I would NEVER have thought that about this team comming into this season....

plenewken
12-09-2009, 07:57 AM
The first Bengals game would be a good start. Had a 20-9 lead at the end of the 3rd quarter...ended up losing 23-20 thanks to the defense shitting the bed and allowing 14 points in the 4th quarter. Any decent defense should be able to protect an 11-point lead in the 4th quarter...except this one. They also had a 7-point lead on the Bears in week 2 and the defense allowed 10 points in the 4th quarter and the Steelers lost. And on the flip side, the Steelers had a 28-0 lead in the Chargers game, only to see them end up almost coming back. The D allowed 21 points in the 4th quarter, and had the O not stepped up and kicked in 10 of their own in the 4th, they probably lose that game. So for all of the flack that the offense has gotten for not scoring enough, here was one instance where they actually DID score early and often and ended up having to bail the defense out when they started hemorrhaging points late.

Yep, let's talk about the first Bengals game. Here is what I can read.

"The defending Super Bowl champs dominated most of the game but wasted chances to put the Bengals away. Jeff Reed missed another field goal, and Limas Sweed dropped a pass in the end zone, keeping it close to the end.

ďIf we score touchdowns in the first half, itís not even a game,Ē Steelers receiver Hines Ward(notes) said. ďItís 24-0 or 24-3. Itís not very good. Youíve got to put up seven points instead of 3s. Thatís how you finish a team off.Ē

Actually, SD is a good example. See, when we execute properly in offense, we can put a game away and San Diego is a much tougher team than Chicago, Kansas City or Oakland.

BlastFurnace
12-09-2009, 08:04 AM
I think the biggest difference this year compared to last year is that no-one is stepping up on the defense to make a play. Last year, we watched Harrison pick off Rivers deep in our territory to change the direction of the first SD game, Deshea pick 6 a Romo pass to win the game, Troy pick 6 against Flacco to win the AFCC Game.

This year, other than the Tyrone Carter pick, has there been any significant defensive play that changed the outcome of a game? Maybe the Troy INT at the beginning of the Tennessee and Cleveland game, but what else? This year, we have guys missing tackles, dropping INT's, missing assignments. No one is stepping up and making a play.

Steeldude
12-09-2009, 08:17 AM
IMO, it's lazy players(not all) and poor coaching(not all).

Steeldude
12-09-2009, 08:19 AM
Heres a stat for you in FIVE of our six losses we have been WINNING in the 4th Quarter only to crap the lead away and fall short :coffee:

the steelers need to learn how to put their foot on people's throats and keep it there. in some games it almost seems like the steelers are content with a 3 point lead. it's like they relax.

plenewken
12-09-2009, 08:22 AM
I think the biggest difference this year compared to last year is that no-one is stepping up on the defense to make a play. Last year, we watched Harrison pick off Rivers deep in our territory to change the direction of the first SD game, Deshea pick 6 a Romo pass to win the game, Troy pick 6 against Flacco to win the AFCC Game.

This year, other than the Tyrone Carter pick, has there been any significant defensive play that changed the outcome of a game? Maybe the Troy INT at the beginning of the Tennessee and Cleveland game, but what else? This year, we have guys missing tackles, dropping INT's, missing assignments. No one is stepping up and making a play.

The absence of Polamalu is a big reason. Without him, not only we have less interceptions but our secondary isn't the same and gives up too many big plays. Last, we don't seem to blitz and pressure the QB as much as we used to. When you give 5 or 6 seconds to a QB, any QB, he'll find an open guy more often than none.

What I conclude from all this is the Steelers historically relied on the Defense to win games, and when the Defense is weaker and less productive, our offense can't step up. Arians knows that Polamalu and Smith are out, right? So he knows that our Defense won't score as many points as they used to and won't prevent as many points as they used to, right? What has HE tried to do to compensate for it?
That's my big problem.
I'm not saying our defense can't be blamed but I do not accept the complacency towards our offense. It is way too predictable and inefficient, particularly in the red zone.

HometownGal
12-09-2009, 08:33 AM
Like I said before, let's agree to disagree. But rather than fighting over opinions, I brought facts. Why don't you do the same and show me when the defense let the opponent come back to beat us, besides last Sunday.

I give you PIT-OAK just to be nice because our offense stunk up the joint for 45mn, to the point of trailing 3 times in the game.

Sorry to repeat myself but had our offense done a half-decent job during 3 quarters, we wouldn't have been trailing once in the game, I repeat, not once, regardless of what our porous defense did.

OK, you have only 5 games to look at in detail, and please don't include the games where our ST screwed up. I pointed out our offensive problems, I want to see our Defensive problems, not ST.

Thanks.

We will just have to agree to disagree here. :drink: I don't need to post facts - you can go to nfl.com, pull up the games and read the play by plays in the 4Q to get all of the facts you need that our D simply cannot hold a lead in the 4Q. As I said in another thread, we're 6-6 but could easily be 4-8 as our D (secondary) almost squandered the leads that the O had in both the Chargers and Lions games as well.
XT also put facts out there that, imho, can't be disputed.

Again - offense is expected to put points on the board (which they do).

Defense is expected to keep points off the board (which they don't do).

End result? We lose games.

plenewken
12-09-2009, 08:37 AM
We will just have to agree to disagree here. :drink: I don't need to post facts - you can go to nfl.com, pull up the games and read the play by plays in the 4Q to get all of the facts you need that our D simply cannot hold a lead in the 4Q. As I said in another thread, we're 6-6 but could easily be 4-8 as our D (secondary) almost squandered the leads that the O had in both the Chargers and Lions games as well.
XT also put facts out there that, imho, can't be disputed.

Again - offense is expected to put points on the board (which they do).

Defense is expected to keep points off the board (which they don't do).

End result? We lose games.

Dear,

Here is what I posted earlier in this thread. That about closes the discussion as far as I'm concerned.

What I conclude from all this is the Steelers historically relied on the Defense to win games, and when the Defense is weaker and less productive, our offense can't step up.
Arians knows that Polamalu and Smith are out, right? So he knows that our Defense won't score as many points as they used to and won't prevent as many points as they used to, right? What has HE tried to do to compensate for it?
That's my big problem.
I'm not saying our defense can't be blamed but I do not accept the complacency towards our offense. It is way too predictable and inefficient, particularly in the red zone.

steeldawg
12-09-2009, 08:50 AM
steelers D in the 4th quarter - given up a league high 9 TD passes
given up 1037 passing yards 2nd in the league.
given up 99 total points(in the 4th) only behind buffalo and miami.
given up the lead in 5 of the 6 losses.

HometownGal
12-09-2009, 08:52 AM
Arians knows that Polamalu and Smith are out, right? So he knows that our Defense won't score as many points as they used to and won't prevent as many points as they used to, right? What has HE tried to do to compensate for it?


Schnookie-ookums,

The D isn't Arians' responsibility - the O is. :banging: Our O is averaging 22.8 PPG - more than enough to win games. I'd have to say that the man has done his job. Why should an OC have to compensate for an area of the team that simply isn't his responsibility? :banging: :doh:

The D is Lebeau's responsibility. End of discussion.

steeldawg
12-09-2009, 09:12 AM
You cannot allow bruce gratowski (or however you spell his name) to throw for 3 touchdowns in the 4th quarter. we have given up 99 points this year in the fourth quarter in 12 games.....thats nearly 10 points per game in the 4th.....So what your saying is the offense should be beating every team by 2 scores going in to the 4th in order for us to win.

HometownGal
12-09-2009, 09:43 AM
So what your saying is the offense should be beating every team by 2 scores going in to the 4th in order for us to win.

No. What he and the rest of the BA haters are saying is that not only is the O his responsibility, but so is the D, as he "fails to compensate" for the loss of Troy. :doh: :shake02: I'm surprised they haven't blamed the ST's woes on Arians too. I guess that's next.

The_WARDen
12-09-2009, 09:47 AM
Schnookie-ookums,

The D isn't Arians' responsibility - the O is. :banging: Our O is averaging 22.8 PPG - more than enough to win games. I'd have to say that the man has done his job. Why should an OC have to compensate for an area of the team that simply isn't his responsibility? :banging: :doh:

The D is Lebeau's responsibility. End of discussion.

The D is Lebeau's responsibility? Learn something new every day.

:chuckle:

Steelillini
12-09-2009, 09:55 AM
The defense has sucked without Troy and A. Smith, that is the facts. They allow one less score every other game and we are 9-3 right now. The offense has troubles scoring in the redzone. Score touchdowns on some of the trips in the redzone and we get a another win or two.

I think it is a little more defense than offense but the O needs to take some responsibility. And we are not even taking into consideration the special teams that have given up td's. No KO return vs KC and we win that game.

plenewken
12-09-2009, 10:10 AM
You cannot allow bruce gratowski (or however you spell his name) to throw for 3 touchdowns in the 4th quarter. we have given up 99 points this year in the fourth quarter in 12 games.....thats nearly 10 points per game in the 4th.....So what your saying is the offense should be beating every team by 2 scores going in to the 4th in order for us to win.

We have given up 61pts in the 4th quarter in our 6 losses and we have scored 31 pts. When the opponent scores, we get the ball back, right?

Let's see what we did with it.

Let's take the game in CHI. They score 10 pts in the 4th Q, we scored 0. Well, if they scored twice, we got the ball back twice, right? What did we do with it? 2 missed FG! 0 TD. What has the defense to do with it?

Let's take the game against Cincy in Cincy. They score 14 pts, we scored 0. We got the ball back twice, right? What did we do with it? Punt once and Sweed dropped the ball in the end zone on 4th down. What has the defense to do with it?

Let's take the game against Cincy in Pittsburgh, we lost 18-12? Well, Cincy scored 6 pts in the 4th quarter and we scored 3. What's the problem with our 4th Q defense here?
We haven't scored 1 friggin' TD the entire game!!

Let's take KC. They scored 7pts in the 4th Q, we scored 7pts too. We lost in OT by 3 pts. We won the toss, we got the ball and did nothing with it.
How can we say the defense cost us the game?

Let's take Baltimore. They scored 3pts in the 4th Q, we scored 7 pts. We lost in OT by 3 pts and we won the toss and did nothing with it, twice.
How can we say the defense cost us the game?

Oakland, they score 21pts, we scored 14. OK, this one, I agree, but it's the only loss we can reasonably blame on the defense, although I'm still frustrated by the lack of production of our offense during the first 45mn.

Actually, yes, I do expect a SB winner to lead by more than 1 score against teams with a losing record and at the very least, win the game in OT when we win the toss. Maybe I'm asking too much.

X-Terminator
12-09-2009, 10:22 AM
Yep, let's talk about the first Bengals game. Here is what I can read.

"The defending Super Bowl champs dominated most of the game but wasted chances to put the Bengals away. Jeff Reed missed another field goal, and Limas Sweed dropped a pass in the end zone, keeping it close to the end.

ďIf we score touchdowns in the first half, itís not even a game,Ē Steelers receiver Hines Ward(notes) said. ďItís 24-0 or 24-3. Itís not very good. Youíve got to put up seven points instead of 3s. Thatís how you finish a team off.Ē

Actually, SD is a good example. See, when we execute properly in offense, we can put a game away and San Diego is a much tougher team than Chicago, Kansas City or Oakland.

See, I don't get this. Why do you constantly absolve the defense of their responsibility in this? I get that the offense didn't score enough on offense earlier in some of these games. I get that the red zone offense has not been good. But why in the world should that completely exonerate the defense when they blow leads? It doesn't matter when the offense scores - the defense STILL had leads to work with and blew them. Why does the offense get blamed for that? Are they the ones out there allowing teams to go the length of the field and score?

To me, this is just another anti-Arians witch-hunt.

plenewken
12-09-2009, 10:25 AM
See, I don't get this. Why do you constantly absolve the defense of their responsibility in this? I get that the offense didn't score enough on offense earlier in some of these games. I get that the red zone offense has not been good. But why in the world should that completely exonerate the defense when they blow leads? It doesn't matter when the offense scores - the defense STILL had leads to work with and blew them. Why does the offense get blamed for that? Are they the ones out there allowing teams to go the length of the field and score?

To me, this is just another anti-Arians witch-hunt.

Read my last post and then we'll talk.

X-Terminator
12-09-2009, 10:31 AM
Read my last post and then we'll talk.

I did read it, and I'm sorry, I still disagree with the notion that the defense should escape blame for their screw-ups, and instead shift it all onto the offense. It's nothing more than scapegoating.

The_WARDen
12-09-2009, 10:33 AM
One thing I will say about the offense is that it's maddening that they can never blow anyone out.

Other than the SD game, they haven't scored 30+ points in any game. Given some of the crappy defenses out there, that's frustrating that they're seem to always be in a struggle.

:noidea:

SteelMember
12-09-2009, 10:49 AM
my take is that they suck against the pass...seems like the other team has to pass come the 4th qtr and the defense gets exposed.

makes me wonder what the opposing OC is thinking half the time...why bother running the ball?

It has been stated, by more knowledgeable people than myself, that the "weak" spot of the zone blitz scheme is the sidelines behind the linebackers, and in front of the corners.

This is where we are giving up the most big plays. Gotta give some of the opposition credit for attacking the weakness, but what happened in the 4th qtr. vs. the raiders was almost blind luck, and our defense did nothing except help them out.

Also, having safety's playing near the line, eyeballing the backfield and biting on fakes isn't helping our secondary one bit. We have been giving up more rushing yards as of late, but breaking down on coverages isn't the answer.

plenewken
12-09-2009, 10:50 AM
I did read it, and I'm sorry, I still disagree with the notion that the defense should escape blame for their screw-ups, and instead shift it all onto the offense. It's nothing more than scapegoating.

Once again, and based on the analysis of our 6 losses, there's only 1 game, the one against OAK, that you can blame our defense for and I have no problem with that.

For the other 5 losses, I gave you all the data, and you don't seem to have looked at it and if you did, I'd like to know, from your perspective, what our 4th quarter defense should have done better.

Are you saying our defense should have shut down the opponent because we were friggin' unable to score 1 point in CHI and Cincy during the 4th quarter? Unfortunately, their offense was productive when ours was not. That's a fact.

I maintain that at least 3 or these losses fall squarely on the offense's shoulders. Our 2 OT losses are definitely 2 of them.

I don't have time to check our wins but I guarantee you that several of them happened because of great defense more than great offense.

Yes, I'm not a big fan of Arians, that's also a fact. Our offense is way too predictable. If I can see on TV what they're going to do, so can the opponent. This, plus poor execution, particularly in the red zone.

No scapegoating whatsoever, just facts.

X-Terminator
12-09-2009, 10:52 AM
One thing I will say about the offense is that it's maddening that they can never blow anyone out.

Other than the SD game, they haven't scored 30+ points in any game. Given some of the crappy defenses out there, that's frustrating that they're seem to always be in a struggle.

:noidea:

And I don't think you'll find one person who will disagree with that. I certainly do not. Believe me, I'd MUCH prefer more San Diego games and less games where they struggle to score points early. The red zone inefficiency is most baffling to me - with all of that talent, we can't score a TD 75-80% of the time? It's kept teams in the game way longer than they should have been. It still doesn't mean they should take the blame for the defense's inability to shut teams down when it counts.

Nadroj 20
12-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Once again, and based on the analysis of our 6 losses, there's only 1 game, the one against OAK, that you can blame our defense for and I have no problem with that.

For the other 5 losses, I gave you all the data, and you don't seem to have looked at it and if you did, I'd like to know, from your perspective, what our 4th quarter defense should have done better.

Are you saying our defense should have shut down the opponent because we were friggin' unable to score 1 point in CHI and Cincy during the 4th quarter? Unfortunately, their offense was productive when ours was not. That's a fact.

I maintain that at least 3 or these losses fall squarely on the offense's shoulders. Our 2 OT losses are definitely 2 of them.

I don't have time to check our wins but I guarantee you that several of them happened because of great defense more than great offense.

Yes, I'm not a big fan of Arians, that's also a fact. Our offense is way too predictable. If I can see on TV what they're going to do, so can the opponent. This, plus poor execution, particularly in the red zone.

No scapegoating whatsoever, just facts.

Like ive said before in 5 of our 6 losses we have had the lead in the 4th quarter, what our defensive could have done better was KEEP THE LEAD. Your point about the offense is OK i just say OK because there are things they need to work on my biggest thing being the redzone scoring, however averaging around 22 points a game seems good to me, but you cannot ignore the fact that we've been winning in 5 of our 6 losses late and our D lets up just enough for the other team to win.

X-Terminator
12-09-2009, 11:10 AM
Once again, and based on the analysis of our 6 losses, there's only 1 game, the one against OAK, that you can blame our defense for and I have no problem with that.

For the other 5 losses, I gave you all the data, and you don't seem to have looked at it and if you did, I'd like to know, from your perspective, what our 4th quarter defense should have done better.

Are you saying our defense should have shut down the opponent because we were friggin' unable to score 1 point in CHI and Cincy during the 4th quarter? Unfortunately, their offense was productive when ours was not. That's a fact.

I maintain that at least 3 or these losses fall squarely on the offense's shoulders. Our 2 OT losses are definitely 2 of them.

I don't have time to check our wins but I guarantee you that several of them happened because of great defense more than great offense.

Yes, I'm not a big fan of Arians, that's also a fact. Our offense is way too predictable. If I can see on TV what they're going to do, so can the opponent. This, plus poor execution, particularly in the red zone.

No scapegoating whatsoever, just facts.

What could the defense have done better in the 4th quarter? How about NOT allowing teams to drive 80+ yards for scores, like they did in several of those games? Even an average defense should be expected to do that with the game on the line. You seem to ignore this fact, just so you can shift blame away from them.

As for the wins, the the only ones that I can say the defense was responsible for was the Tennessee game, when they held them to 3 points in the 2nd half and allowed the offense to finally break through and win the game after coming up empty repeatedly despite Ben throwing for 350+ yards...and the Vikings game with the two returns for TDs that ultimately bailed out the offense. I already gave you the SD game where the offense bailed out the D. The Lions game - Steelers scored 21 points in the first half and 28 at the end of the 3rd quarter. They also gave the Lions 7 with a pick-6, which is what really kept the game close. The D allowed 10, including 7 in the 4th Q, but I have no issue with that. The Browns game, the offense scored 17 of their points in the 2nd Q and added 7 more in the 3rd...but the ST allowed a TD which is what kept THAT game close. The D allowed 7, with none in the 2nd half. No issue there. The Denver game is another one where the offense stepped up and won the game, scoring 14 points in the 4th to break open a close game.

There you have it. Take them for what they're worth.

The_WARDen
12-09-2009, 11:10 AM
Scoring 22.7 PPG is just that...OK. That ranks them 14th which is just slightly better then middle of the pack.

This offense should score more but maybe we have blinders on and just over value some of the offensive players. Maybe they aren't as good as we think.

:noidea:

plenewken
12-09-2009, 11:20 AM
Scoring 22.7 PPG is just that...OK. That ranks them 14th which is just slightly better then middle of the pack.

This offense should score more but maybe we have blinders on and just over value some of the offensive players. Maybe they aren't as good as we think.

:noidea:

Exactly.

X-Terminator
12-09-2009, 11:22 AM
Scoring 22.7 PPG is just that...OK. That ranks them 14th which is just slightly better then middle of the pack.

This offense should score more but maybe we have blinders on and just over value some of the offensive players. Maybe they aren't as good as we think.

:noidea:

They're ranked 7th in the league offensively by YPG, so the talent is there. Their inability to score TDs in the red zone is why the PPG average isn't higher, and that is one instance where you can legitimately blame the play calling.

CargoJon
12-09-2009, 02:37 PM
It's the defensive personnel, specifically in the backfield, that is killing us. Watched the replay of the game on NFLN last night, we have guys playing CB that I've never heard of before, and I'm a pretty die hard fan. Losing Troy is huge - Carter is serviceable and my complaints are not necessarily with him, but Troy not being there puts more pressure on the shitty CB's to perform - and they don't.

We need CB help badly. Heard on Sirius the other day that we have ZERO interceptions this year by CB's. Troy leads the team with 3, and he's missed seven games. What the eff....

Draft a bunch of ball hawking CB's in April please.

Arians still sucks, but the problem isn't necessarily anything LeBeau is doing. It's just that the personnel is not there to run his scheme effectively. William Gay is horrible and it goes downhill from there. The D Line being beat up certainly makes it worse.

rich4eagle
12-09-2009, 05:05 PM
I am really starting to believe that the 4th QTR collapse is no longer a coincidence. I think teams are game planning around the 4th. If they can just hang around, then they unleash their LeBeau killing strategy and win the 4th.

LeBeau is a master strategist, who can make the right adjustments given time. The collapses have been so spectacular, it seems as though the opposing team have LeBeau's number. They are tending to save their zone blitz killers until the 4th instead of the 1st quarter. That leaves LeBeau little time to adjust and counteract. As a result, you have the collapse.

It is not LeBeau who is failing in Q4 but Tomlin failing all game and then really failing in Q4 ..............LeBeau does not send in the punting unit in overtime on the other teams 39 on foruth and one in overtime

that is well mostly brain dead:tt::tt03::tt04::tt02:

X-Terminator
12-09-2009, 10:30 PM
It is not LeBeau who is failing in Q4 but Tomlin failing all game and then really failing in Q4 ..............LeBeau does not send in the punting unit in overtime on the other teams 39 on foruth and one in overtime

that is well mostly brain dead:tt::tt03::tt04::tt02:

Why? They ultimately got what they wanted, and backed the Ravens up. Is it HIS fault the defense, once again, could not get the job done? And if he goes for it and doesn't make it, it would have put the Ravens 26 yards closer to a FG than they ultimately were...and I guarantee there would be people on this board bashing him for that.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You can't win with Steelers fans.

tony hipchest
12-10-2009, 12:31 AM
They're ranked 7th in the league offensively by YPG, so the talent is there. Their inability to score TDs in the red zone is why the PPG average isn't higher, and that is one instance where you can legitimately blame the play calling.

yep.

It's the defensive personnel, specifically in the backfield, that is killing us. Watched the replay of the game on NFLN last night, we have guys playing CB that I've never heard of before, and I'm a pretty die hard fan. .

if you are a die hard fan, how the hell do you not recognize the "guys" playing CB???

everyone knows who deshea and ike is. willie gay has been our starter all season. you must be speaking of smokin joe burnett, who was our 5th round rookie selection this year.

lewis hasnt seen much game action to this point, and ratliff has been released. what did you see in the replay, that everyone else missed? was anthony madison taking defensive snaps (rhetorical question, as the obvious answer is "no").

the defense carried the weight of our offense last year when our running backs were beat up and we lost starters m. smith, and k. simmons on the offensive line.

this was the year for the offense to step up and carry the weight of a. smith and t. polamalu being out for the defense.

this may be stating the obvious but lebeau is head and heels above arians as far as coaching talent goes. arians has pressed and out thunk himself (and to some degree, the young tomlin has too.)

Rick5895
12-10-2009, 05:38 AM
I think I read in other threads on here that says "other co-ordinators are adjusting to what we do" Opposition O coaches are adjusting to what our D is doing thus allowing them to score in the 4th. Is our D adjusting back? Not to the level we have been expecting. I when you don't get turnovers and drop sure pics that we have seen that allows Offenses to continue drives. Dropped pics have cost us in every loss. Similiarly, opposing D coaches are adjusting to our O. And we are not adjusting back.
We know we are weaker on D without Smith and Troy. That is hard to compensate for, hopefully we will address some of those problems in the draft, but I think we have some of the answers on the roster. Plenewken makes good point about the O. When you let bad teams hang around bad things happen. We let Chicago, KC and Oakland hang around because we didn't do enough on offense to put the game away early. When teams are down by multiple scores early they take more chances thus helping the D.
I am saying this is a equal responsibilty here, not just one or the other.

plenewken
12-10-2009, 08:06 AM
I think I read in other threads on here that says "other co-ordinators are adjusting to what we do" Opposition O coaches are adjusting to what our D is doing thus allowing them to score in the 4th. Is our D adjusting back? Not to the level we have been expecting. I when you don't get turnovers and drop sure pics that we have seen that allows Offenses to continue drives. Dropped pics have cost us in every loss. Similiarly, opposing D coaches are adjusting to our O. And we are not adjusting back.
We know we are weaker on D without Smith and Troy. That is hard to compensate for, hopefully we will address some of those problems in the draft, but I think we have some of the answers on the roster. Plenewken makes good point about the O. When you let bad teams hang around bad things happen. We let Chicago, KC and Oakland hang around because we didn't do enough on offense to put the game away early. When teams are down by multiple scores early they take more chances thus helping the D.
I am saying this is a equal responsibilty here, not just one or the other.

Very true. I don't know why the majority of the posters here don't want to hear about the offense under performing. Looks like the offensive players are untouchable! A total mistery for me.
They talk about the game in Baltimore and tell you that it's the defense who lost it. Excuse me??? We won the toss in overtime and had the ball! Not only once but twice! What did we do with it? The first time we punt and the second time we throw a pick! Is this the defense fault??? C'mon guys!
Arians lost this game singlehandedly. Why didn't he call plays leveraging Dixon's strength. The kid showed us twice how dangerous he is when he runs. Nah, Arians called 3 passes in a row. It's asinine!

Bluedust
12-10-2009, 09:56 AM
Very true. I don't know why the majority of the posters here don't want to hear about the offense under performing. Looks like the offensive players are untouchable! A total mistery for me.
They talk about the game in Baltimore and tell you that it's the defense who lost it. Excuse me??? We won the toss in overtime and had the ball! Not only once but twice! What did we do with it? The first time we punt and the second time we throw a pick! Is this the defense fault??? C'mon guys!
Arians lost this game singlehandedly. Why didn't he call plays leveraging Dixon's strength. The kid showed us twice how dangerous he is when he runs. Nah, Arians called 3 passes in a row. It's asinine!

The reason the offense is untouchable (which is bs, people bitch about Arians constantly, a lot of it deserved, most of it notsomuch, unless you consider rabblerabblerabble valid criticism.) is because they aren't the ones consistently laying an egg this season. That would be the defense, which is playing just abysmally in the 4th quarter all year.

But I'd honestly like to hear what planet you're on where the Steelers Offense isn't getting reamed every 30 seconds by yinzers, because I'm bombarded with it working in the city.

steeldawg
12-10-2009, 10:04 AM
you cannot continue to allwo teams to score 2 and 3 times in the fourth quarter and expect to win i dont care how good your offense is

Nadroj 20
12-10-2009, 10:13 AM
you cannot continue to allwo teams to score 2 and 3 times in the fourth quarter and expect to win i dont care how good your offense is

Great post and this is what it boils downs too. Simple as that if you let your opponent score late your giving them a chance to win and when our team has been winning in the 4th Q in 5 of our 6 losses ( ive said this many times) you cant say the offense is the entire reason.

X-Terminator
12-10-2009, 10:27 AM
Very true. I don't know why the majority of the posters here don't want to hear about the offense under performing. Looks like the offensive players are untouchable! A total mistery for me.
They talk about the game in Baltimore and tell you that it's the defense who lost it. Excuse me??? We won the toss in overtime and had the ball! Not only once but twice! What did we do with it? The first time we punt and the second time we throw a pick! Is this the defense fault??? C'mon guys!
Arians lost this game singlehandedly. Why didn't he call plays leveraging Dixon's strength. The kid showed us twice how dangerous he is when he runs. Nah, Arians called 3 passes in a row. It's asinine!

That's great...but you failed to mention that the game shouldn't have even gone to OT, considering that the Steelers got the lead late in the 4th (on a run by Dixon, no less), and once again, the D couldn't get the job done, allowing the Ravens to engineer a long drive from inside their 20 for the tying FG.

You know at some point, you're going to have to acknowledge that the D hasn't been doing its job when it's mattered the most. It's not all the offense's fault.

And who said the offensive players are untouchable? Have you not been reading this board much at all? They certainly are NOT untouchable. The "majority" of posters just don't think the offense should be blamed for the defense not coming through in the clutch - that the DEFENSE should be blamed for that.

The reason the offense is untouchable (which is bs, people bitch about Arians constantly, a lot of it deserved, most of it notsomuch, unless you consider rabblerabblerabble valid criticism.) is because they aren't the ones consistently laying an egg this season. That would be the defense, which is playing just abysmally in the 4th quarter all year.

But I'd honestly like to hear what planet you're on where the Steelers Offense isn't getting reamed every 30 seconds by yinzers, because I'm bombarded with it working in the city.

Exactly. All I have to do is turn on the radio, and it's nothing but non-stop BA and O-bashing. So there goes the notion that the offense is untouchable.

plenewken
12-10-2009, 10:48 AM
you cannot continue to allwo teams to score 2 and 3 times in the fourth quarter and expect to win i dont care how good your offense is

This is not even true. Look at the 6 games we lost and tell me how many times the opponent scored 2 or 3 times. By the way, when the opponent scores, we get the ball back, right? So why can't we do anything with it?

I have never said it's only the fault of the offense, but I don't want to hear it's only the fault of the defense either. We still have a better defensive ranking than offensive ranking. There must be a reason for it, no?

Anyway, here's a critical game tonight. I really hope our defense plays much better than last week and I also hope that our offense plays better than last week too. Yes, we let OAK score 21 pts in the 4th quarter which is unacceptable but we also left at least 14pts on the field in the first half. 3 red zone opps resulted in 3 friggin' points. This is not acceptable either.
The 2 games before Oakland, we went to OT, won the toss and managed to lose both games. Good for you if you're pleased with what our offense has produced so far, with all the weapons it has and no injured players. I'm not.

GO STEELERS!

Nadroj 20
12-10-2009, 10:56 AM
This is not even true. Look at the 6 games we lost and tell me how many times the opponent scored 2 or 3 times. By the way, when the opponent scores, we get the ball back, right? So why can't we do anything with it?

I have never said it's only the fault of the offense, but I don't want to hear it's only the fault of the defense either. We still have a better defensive ranking than offensive ranking. There must be a reason for it, no?

Anyway, here's a critical game tonight. I really hope our defense plays much better than last week and I also hope that our offense plays better than last week too. Yes, we let OAK score 21 pts in the 4th quarter which is unacceptable but we also left at least 14pts on the field in the first half. 3 red zone opps resulted in 3 friggin' points. This is not acceptable either.
The 2 games before Oakland, we went to OT, won the toss and managed to lose both games. Good for you if you're pleased with what our offense has produced so far, with all the weapons it has and no injured players. I'm not.

GO STEELERS!

This is not even true? Come on man are you getting the offense and the defense mixed up or something? The defense is the one on the field when the other teams offense drives down the field for game winning drives!!! It happened in OT against KC, the 1st bengals loss, the raiders game, the 3rd and 22 / 4th and 5 agains the Ravens, bottom line is our D has given up to many big plays in the worse situations..

Yes the offense can do a little bit better especially redzone scoring but to say the comment above your post isnt true! :doh:

steelerjim58
12-10-2009, 11:03 AM
Great post and this is what it boils downs too. Simple as that if you let your opponent score late your giving them a chance to win and when our team has been winning in the 4th Q in 5 of our 6 losses ( ive said this many times) you cant say the offense is the entire reason.

In 4 of the losses the d gave up 7 or less points in the second half. Against KC they held them to a field goal after the int return put them first and goal. As I have said in other post, to me it's not that they have played poorly but that when they given up the long drives. They are magnified a hundred times if it happens late in the game. But I still believe that with the exception of the Raiders game the d has played well enough for the Steelers to have won if the O put some points on the board.

Nadroj 20
12-10-2009, 11:10 AM
In 4 of the losses the d gave up 7 or less points in the second half. Against KC they held them to a field goal after the int return put them first and goal. As I have said in other post, to me it's not that they have played poorly but that when they give up the long drives. They are magnified a hundred times if it happens late in the game. But I still believe that with the exception of the Raiders game the d has played well enough for the Steelers to have won if the O put some points on the board.

Like ive said before in 5 of our 6 losses we have been WINNING in the 4th Q, so the offense must be doing fine because we are WINNING, then the D gives up huge plays and allows the other team to come back

Sure if the O scored 70 points a game that would be great huh? its just not realistic and our O is averaging almost 23 a game...with our D playing like they SHOULD 23 a game wins 9 times out of 10.

And i have also said the O does need work like red zone scoring but when I think STEELER football i think D and they havent been playing at there capable level late when it really matters.

steeldawg
12-10-2009, 11:25 AM
This is not even true. Look at the 6 games we lost and tell me how many times the opponent scored 2 or 3 times. By the way, when the opponent scores, we get the ball back, right? So why can't we do anything with it?

I have never said it's only the fault of the offense, but I don't want to hear it's only the fault of the defense either. We still have a better defensive ranking than offensive ranking. There must be a reason for it, no?

Anyway, here's a critical game tonight. I really hope our defense plays much better than last week and I also hope that our offense plays better than last week too. Yes, we let OAK score 21 pts in the 4th quarter which is unacceptable but we also left at least 14pts on the field in the first half. 3 red zone opps resulted in 3 friggin' points. This is not acceptable either.
The 2 games before Oakland, we went to OT, won the toss and managed to lose both games. Good for you if you're pleased with what our offense has produced so far, with all the weapons it has and no injured players. I'm not.

GO STEELERS!

The Saints have the top offense in the league they average 36 points a game which is less than 10 points a quarter. There are points left on the field for every team in every game its the NFL defenses are paid to stop people. I know our offense is leaving points on the field but our defense has had a lead in the 4th quarter in 5 of the 6 losses. I didnt say it was only the fault of the defense. but when your team has the lead late in the game you have to make stops. im not pleased with our offense i think we can score more points but its not like they are turning the ball over in our own territory they pinning teams deep late in the game with a lead and teams are still driving the length of the field for game winning scores.

plenewken
12-10-2009, 11:30 AM
This is not even true? Come on man are you getting the offense and the defense mixed up or something? The defense is the one on the field when the other teams offense drives down the field for game winning drives!!! It happened in OT against KC, the 1st bengals loss, the raiders game, the 3rd and 22 / 4th and 5 agains the Ravens, bottom line is our D has given up to many big plays in the worse situations..

Yes the offense can do a little bit better especially redzone scoring but to say the comment above your post isnt true! :doh:

Excuse me??? How can you write It happened in OT against KC, when we won the toss? Who is supposed to score with the ball in our hands? Us or them?
In Baltimore we had the ball twice in OT, which means our defense stopped them once. Both times we were unable to score even a friggin' field goal!
The 1st game against Cincy, We scored 0 pts in the 4th quarter and we lost by 3 pts.
We had the ball twice in the 4th quarter and we punted twice. Cincy had the ball 3 times, they missed a long field goal and scored 2 TDs.
Their offense was better than ours down the stretch, period.

You say our offense can do a little better?? You're very complacent to say the least. I expect them to do MUCH better. When Ben, Ward, Holmes, Wallace, Miller, Parker and Mendenhall can't score more than 3 pts against the Raiders in 3 red zone opportunity, that's putrid. Worse case scenario should be 9 pts, not 3.

steeldawg
12-10-2009, 11:37 AM
Well im just gonna end thid dispute by saying we have not been good in all 3 phases of the game.

The_WARDen
12-10-2009, 11:38 AM
Well im just gonna end thid dispute by saying we have not been good in all 3 phases of the game.

only if you admit that it's Arian's fault that we have not been good in all 3 phases...

steeldawg
12-10-2009, 11:40 AM
only if you admit that it's Arian's fault that we have not been good in all 3 phases...

LOL ok I admit it. :drink:

Nadroj 20
12-10-2009, 11:40 AM
Excuse me??? How can you write It happened in OT against KC, when we won the toss? Who is supposed to score with the ball in our hands? Us or them?
In Baltimore we had the ball twice in OT, which means our defense stopped them once. Both times we were unable to score even a friggin' field goal!
The 1st game against Cincy, We scored 0 pts in the 4th quarter and we lost by 3 pts.
We had the ball twice in the 4th quarter and we punted twice. Cincy had the ball 3 times, they missed a long field goal and scored 2 TDs.
Their offense was better than ours down the stretch, period.

You say our offense can do a little better?? You're very complacent to say the least. I expect them to do MUCH better. When Ben, Ward, Holmes, Wallace, Miller, Parker and Mendenhall can't score more than 3 pts against the Raiders in 3 red zone opportunity, that's putrid. Worse case scenario should be 9 pts, not 3.

IT DID HAPPEN IN KC....i dont care who got the ball first we let them drive right down the field and kick a chip shot field goal after we let up a big play to chambers!!!

In baltimore im talking about the 3rd and 22 play made into 4th and 5 so they went for it and let up like 44 yards to rice on a slant play against farrior.

And the 1st game in Cincy we were WINNING if the o starts to fall off the D is suppose to step up and help out the team and they DIDNT

Its easy if the O score 70 points a game but thats not what they are going to do!!! and when i think STEELER football excuse me for expecting more from the D instead of more from our 23ppg O :banging: :banging: :banging: :banging: :banging:

and btw the bolded part in your post says it all.

PalmerSteel
12-10-2009, 11:42 AM
in the perfect world, obviously our offense would be better. but the standards that ARE set for our defense by our fans and the WHOLE ORGANIZATION KNOWS how they should perform, is playing well below expections. there has been a dropoff in all 3 phases but the biggest dropoff has been placed on the defense, where it should be placed. i am sure the whole defense would agree 100%.

steelerjim58
12-10-2009, 11:43 AM
Like ive said before in 5 of our 6 losses we have been WINNING in the 4th Q, so the offense must be doing fine because we are WINNING, then the D gives up huge plays and allows the other team to come back

Sure if the O scored 70 points a game that would be great huh? its just not realistic and our O is averaging almost 23 a game...with our D playing like they SHOULD 23 a game wins 9 times out of 10.

And i have also said the O does need work like red zone scoring but when I think STEELER football i think D and they havent been playing at there capable level late when it really matters.

So basically you are saying that you expect the d to never give up any points. Because its hard to do much better than 7 in a half. Agree or disagree?

Nadroj 20
12-10-2009, 11:44 AM
So basically you are saying that you expect the d to never give up any points. Because its hard to do much better than 7 in a half. Agree or disagree?

I expect the D not to give up game winning TD drives at the end of games regardless of what they or our offense does earlier in the game...agree or disagree?

fansince'76
12-10-2009, 11:45 AM
So basically you are saying that you expect the d to never give up any points. Because its hard to do much better than 7 in a half. Agree or disagree?

No, I think people are expecting the defense to hold onto 17-7 leads against the likes of KC and not allow it to get to OT to begin with. I guess that is an unreasonable expectation.

plenewken
12-10-2009, 11:46 AM
IT DID HAPPEN IN KC....i dont care who got the ball first we let them drive right down the field and kick a chip shot field goal after we let up a big play to chambers!!!

In baltimore im talking about the 3rd and 22 play made into 4th and 5 so they went for it and let up like 44 yards to rice on a slant play against farrior.

Its easy if the O score 70 points a game but thats not what they are going to do!!! and when i think STEELER football excuse me for expecting more from the D instead of more from our 23ppg O :banging: :banging: :banging: :banging: :banging:

And don't forget that with our short and low kick-offs and our awful kick-off return team, our defense had to work with much less field than it should. It's much tougher to prevent a team from scoring when they have only 60 yds to go than 90 yds.

Anyway, we'll see what happens tonight. Nice talking to you.

steeldawg
12-10-2009, 11:46 AM
So basically you are saying that you expect the d to never give up any points. Because its hard to do much better than 7 in a half. Agree or disagree?

No of course not but if you told me at the beginning of the year we would score 23 points per game i would of had us locked for the superbowl.

steeldawg
12-10-2009, 11:48 AM
I just think our D has let down in crunch time which is were we excelled last year

Nadroj 20
12-10-2009, 11:48 AM
And don't forget that with our short and low kick-offs and our awful kick-off return team, our defense had to work with much less field than it should. It's much tougher to prevent a team from scoring when they have only 60 yds to go than 90 yds.

Anyway, we'll see what happens tonight. Nice talking to you.

Yea sure nice talking to you to no hard feelings its just a matter of opinion

And they did let up a 90 yard drive to oakland lol just saying.

steelerjim58
12-10-2009, 12:26 PM
No of course not but if you told me at the beginning of the year we would score 23 points per game i would of had us locked for the superbowl.

But if I had told you that they would give up some sort of special teams or other type of return for a td in 8 straight games would you have had the same opinion? Look, as I have said it is when they are giving up the points which makes it such a glaring stat. But if you look at every loss except the raiders The d from the standpoint of points allowed by them has played well enough for the Steeler to have won each game. Agree or disagree?

plenewken
12-10-2009, 12:50 PM
But if I had told you that they would give up some sort of special teams or other type of return for a td in 8 straight games would you have had the same opinion? Look, as I have said it is when they are giving up the points which makes it such a glaring stat. But if you look at every loss except the raiders The d from the standpoint of points allowed by them has played well enough for the Steeler to have won each game. Agree or disagree?

You're not asking me but I agree with you 100%. I don't have the number of points scored against us with our defense not even on the field but I guaranteed you, it's significant.

steeldawg
12-10-2009, 12:59 PM
But if I had told you that they would give up some sort of special teams or other type of return for a td in 8 straight games would you have had the same opinion? Look, as I have said it is when they are giving up the points which makes it such a glaring stat. But if you look at every loss except the raiders The d from the standpoint of points allowed by them has played well enough for the Steeler to have won each game. Agree or disagree?

Yes because the D last year only allowed 13.9 points per game ans the O only averaged 21.7 points per game. so no my opinion does not change. And you could argue in all of our losses that the O played well enough to win because we had the lead late in the game.

Nadroj 20
12-10-2009, 01:07 PM
On ESPN they are talking about the Steelers problems and they said their biggest concern is the Defense not finishing games huh? THATS JUST CRAZY TALK. :rolleyes:

steeldawg
12-10-2009, 01:12 PM
On ESPN they are talking about the Steelers problems and they said their biggest concern is the Defense huh? THATS JUST CRAZY TALK. :rolleyes:

Ya i was just watching Old Herm Edwards breaking it down. Although i dont really listen to Herm because he just wasnt a good coach i do agree we have to have our D play well in order to win

CargoJon
12-10-2009, 04:01 PM
yep.



if you are a die hard fan, how the hell do you not recognize the "guys" playing CB???

everyone knows who deshea and ike is. willie gay has been our starter all season. you must be speaking of smokin joe burnett, who was our 5th round rookie selection this year.

lewis hasnt seen much game action to this point, and ratliff has been released. what did you see in the replay, that everyone else missed? was anthony madison taking defensive snaps (rhetorical question, as the obvious answer is "no").

the defense carried the weight of our offense last year when our running backs were beat up and we lost starters m. smith, and k. simmons on the offensive line.

this was the year for the offense to step up and carry the weight of a. smith and t. polamalu being out for the defense.

this may be stating the obvious but lebeau is head and heels above arians as far as coaching talent goes. arians has pressed and out thunk himself (and to some degree, the young tomlin has too.)
Of course I know who Ike, Deshea, and Gay are. Frankly, the fact that we have a 5th round draft pick rookie on the field during any kind of drive where we have the potential to lose the game only solidifies my point that it's the personnel that's the problem.

SteelMember
12-10-2009, 04:54 PM
Of course I know who Ike, Deshea, and Gay are. Frankly, the fact that we have a 5th round draft pick rookie on the field during any kind of drive where we have the potential to lose the game only solidifies my point that it's the personnel that's the problem.

Well, the fact that Gay just got his bell rung by some friendly fire from Mundy had some significance for Burnett being on the field.

Who else you gonna put out there? Reed. You know he ain't gonna make a tackle either. :chuckle:

CargoJon
12-10-2009, 06:39 PM
Well, the fact that Gay just got his bell rung by some friendly fire from Mundy had some significance for Burnett being on the field.

Who else you gonna put out there? Reed. You know he ain't gonna make a tackle either. :chuckle:

:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:

He would rough that sh!t up if it were a hand dryer from Sheetz :toofunny: :toofunny:

Seriously, if that is the state of our secondary, then we need to realize, due to injury or whatever, that this is going to continue until we get some better bodies in there.

rich4eagle
12-14-2009, 03:37 PM
Why? They ultimately got what they wanted, and backed the Ravens up. Is it HIS fault the defense, once again, could not get the job done? And if he goes for it and doesn't make it, it would have put the Ravens 26 yards closer to a FG than they ultimately were...and I guarantee there would be people on this board bashing him for that.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You can't win with Steelers fans.


you are obviously confused this happened in the KC game...........

and yes they punted and gained a net six yards after KC's first play.........and the next play put the ball on the Steeler ten........

FG game over:tt::tt04::tt03: