PDA

View Full Version : Forced Reading of a 767-page Amendment


MACH1
12-17-2009, 09:31 AM
Senate debate stalls as GOP forces reading

As Democrats neared completion on a health care reform bill, Senate Republicans launched an offensive Wednesday to stall the debate, signaling their intent to use every procedural tool necessary to prevent passage before Christmas.

Senate Republicans forced the Senate clerk to read a 767-page amendment establishing a government-financed health care system, sponsored by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) – but Sanders cut off the reading in the third hour by withdrawing his bill.

“We want to do what can to defeat the bill,” said Sen. John Thune (R-S.D.), a member of the Senate Republican leadership. "We are going to do everything we can in terms of the rights we have to stop the bill from passing."

Sanders criticized Republicans for “trying to bring the United States government to a halt."

The GOP move appeared to be the opening shot in a Republican attempt to delay the bill past Christmas. And while Democrats were able to halt the reading by pulling Sanders’ amendment, they won’t be to do the same when Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) presents an amendment containing a compromise he hopes will win 60 votes.

Sanders offered the amendment and asked to dispense with the reading of it, which is almost always agreed to by unanimous consent. But Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) objected - it takes only one senator - forcing the reading.

Sanders called it a "bit absurd" that Coburn was objecting. And Coburn insisted he wasn't intentionally stalling the bill. "We're going to understand what single payer is all about and read the bill," he said.

Coburn’s move would have prevented senators from offering, debating or voting on any other amendments. While it might seem like the reading would set back efforts to finish the bill by Christmas, the timetable doesn't really depend on what happens on the floor.

It depends entirely on Reid's ability to reach a compromise on the bill that can pick up 60 votes to thwart any filibuster.

Before forcing the reading, Coburn asked to certify that every senator has read and understands the bill. But Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) said it would be impossible for the Senate to certify that all its members understand the bill.

Sanders called it a "a stalling tactic on the part of Republicans."

"Sen. Coburn is so impressed by the Medicare-for-all, single-payer program that he apparently feels all the people of our country have to hear every single word for the next many, many hours about how the single payer program would be the only way to bring universal, comprehensive, cost-effective health care to all Americans," he said. " I really do appreciate his desire to make Americans know this. I think he may have overdone it a bit."

Reid has a tight timeline if he hopes to pass the bill by Christmas.

Under the rosiest scenario, he needs to begin taking the procedural steps by Friday to end the debate – and it would still take until Dec. 23 or 24 until the bill reaches final passage. This scenario depends on whether Reid receives a cost analysis from the Congressional Budget Office within the next day, which is not guaranteed. Undecided senators have said they need to review the analysis before committing their vote.

But as Wednesday’s event signified, Republicans do not intend to cooperate. They can also force a reading of the “manager’s amendment,” which will include the compromise that Reid struck in order to win 60 votes. It is likely to be a lengthy document, as well.

Thune would not say whether Republicans planned to force more readings.

“I do think we are aware of what those opportunities and options are for us,” he said. “And the goal here is to defeat this thing.”

Reid told reporters that the forced reading of the bill is having a side effect: it is slowing down the Senate’s efforts to get to a Pentagon spending bill. He said that Sanders was prepared to take a voice vote on the amendment, and also insisted that the bill would get out of the Senate this year.

“We’re going to finish this bill before we leave here, and everybody knows that, Democrats know it. I think the Republicans are beginning to realize I,” Reid said. “It’s just too bad that they are using these types of things, but I accept it, I’m not complaining, I just think it shows the American people how they’ve been stalling for all these months – now they’re holding up the defense bill as we’re waiting to get that from the House.”

-- Carrie Budoff Brown, Chris Frates and Manu Raju
http://www.politico.com/livepulse/1209/Coburn_forces_amendment_reading.html

I say they should sit down a read the whole effing thing to the American public before they pass this shit pile of a bill.

revefsreleets
12-17-2009, 11:03 AM
Even the people who hate the Republicans and everything they stand for need to take a moment and realize that the GOP is the LAST things standing between us and a HORRIBLE healthcare bill which will cause further damage, and will either cost trillions over it's lifetime, or need to be completely reworked in a few years.

This was a bad bill to start with, and as the Dems dumped stuff over the side to make it more palatable, they actually made it WORSE over time...

SteelersinCA
12-17-2009, 11:19 AM
I find it offensive that the Senate is pissed that someone would want them to understand a bill before they voted on it.

xfl2001fan
12-17-2009, 12:11 PM
I find it offensive that the Senate is pissed that someone would want them to understand a bill before they voted on it.

:hug: THIS!!!

If they're going to be passing laws, they need to understand what the law is that they're passing as well as the short-term/long-term ramifications it could have. That's what they get their exhorbitant salary for.

Indo
12-17-2009, 01:19 PM
As I have said before-
The arrogance of these fkkers just appalls me. They have forgotten that they actually work for us---we the people. To believe that a bill should be passed without everyone reading it is just unbelievable. These people allegedly represent the citizens of the country (who put them into office). That's what a REPUBLIC is all about. Someone seriously needs to remind them of that fact (which means they need to be voted out of office). This, likely, won't happen because (and I'm sad to say) the vast majority of citizens are like lemmings---they don't bother to learn about the issues and who is voting for what. They just follow everyone else over the cliff...
Sad

KeiselPower99
12-17-2009, 02:04 PM
Why read it??? Im sure the special interests groups will be fair to us Americans and our wallets.

Preacher
12-17-2009, 05:03 PM
As Democrats neared completion on a health care reform bill, Senate Republicans launched an offensive Wednesday to stall the debate, signaling their intent to use every procedural tool necessary to prevent passage before Christmas.

Senate Republicans forced the Senate clerk to read a 767-page amendment establishing a government-financed health care system, sponsored by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) – but Sanders cut off the reading in the third hour by withdrawing his bill.

“We want to do what can to defeat the bill,” said Sen. John Thune (R-S.D.), a member of the Senate Republican leadership. "We are going to do everything we can in terms of the rights we have to stop the bill from passing."


OK, I am a moderator in my association, which means that we run by the same rules of Order they run by, and have to, since we are a not for profit corporation, and our annual meetings are actually the equivalent of share-holder meetings.

The fact of the matter is, the amendment HAS TO BE READ. It is only by mutual agreement that it is not. For an Amendment to be dropped on to a bill.... means the amendement has to be offered, then seconded, then voted on.

The amendment CAN NOT BE PULLED OFF THE TABLE. except by UNANIMOUS CONSENT, The senate did not have unanimous consent to pull the bill off the table, and thus, the ENTIRE DEBATE IS NOW OUT OF ORDER.

The fact that senate rules on the ORDER is being violated is absolutely horrid. When the Dems were holding up nominations, the GOP KEPT to the rules... not even the Letter of the law, but the SPIRIT of the law.

This is the closest thing I have seen in my lifetime to a banana republic, because it actually affects THE WAY LAWS COMES INTO EXISTENCE.

MACH1
12-17-2009, 08:29 PM
You expect them to follow the rules when they can't follow the Constitution.

tony hipchest
12-17-2009, 08:47 PM
The arrogance of these fkkers just appalls me. They have forgotten that they actually work for us---we the people. To believe that a bill should be passed without everyone reading it is just unbelievable. These people allegedly represent the citizens of the country (who put them into office).

and i agree...

ocV5bGHdYag

steelwalls
12-17-2009, 09:03 PM
If I was a Senator I believe I would actually want to understand and be sure about what I was voteing for..arrogance is totally the right word. Heaven forbid anyone asking Senators to comprehend a bill. Goes for both sides of the aisle.

GoSlash27
12-17-2009, 09:46 PM
The only reason they get away with voting for crap they haven't read is because we (collectively) haven't paid any more than the most cursory attention to them.
Bless you all for taking an interest.
How many of you are actually willing to fix it instead of merely complaining?

tony hipchest
12-17-2009, 10:12 PM
meh... id rather eat a burger, :bite: have a beer, :drink: smoke a cig. :smoker: and watch some football. :football:

:hunch:

stlrtruck
12-18-2009, 07:17 AM
meh... id rather eat a burger, :bite: have a beer, :drink: smoke a cig. :smoker: and watch some football. :football:

:hunch:

What do you do when it's the off-season? Find ways to annoy Preacher? :chuckle: :flap:

revefsreleets
12-18-2009, 10:40 AM
The only reason they get away with voting for crap they haven't read is because we (collectively) haven't paid any more than the most cursory attention to them.
Bless you all for taking an interest.
How many of you are actually willing to fix it instead of merely complaining?

Huh?

Fix it? Fix what? The current piece of legislation? It's fatally flawed, because it never addressed the real problems in the first place. This is about runaway healthcare costs. Almost everything the Congress is considering should be things that are done AFTER the initial Insurance/cost/fee problems are addressed. That IS the complaint. There is no hope at all for the current bill...

SteelMember
12-18-2009, 10:48 AM
I believe the setiment was for peolple to become active paticipants in the system, not specifically this piece of legislation.

That was my take anyway. Maybe I'm wrong.

GoSlash27
12-18-2009, 04:38 PM
Fix it? Fix what? The current piece of legislation?
No, the *system*. That's what's broken.
It's not enough to just vote, you've got to get informed. And not just by reading headlines, but by spending time researching the issues behind the politics.
And that's just the first step. *Real* change requires people to actually write their newspapers and their representatives. People need to get more involved at the local party level, whatever party they might identify with. People have to find candidates they support and campaign on their behalf. People have to become that candidate when no suitable ones present themselves.

Making these changes, like anything else, requires a personal commitment and serious effort.
So the question is how many of us are really willing to do what it takes to fix this instead of just complaining about it?

What Steel Member said.

revefsreleets
12-18-2009, 04:50 PM
The people who start out in politics with real change in mind are simply subjugated...they are no different than victims of the Borg on Star Trek. They are assimilated, and resistance is useless.

If you DON'T assimilate, you're cast out. Look at Jim Trafficant. He was a nut, but he at least retained his principles. He either was forced (It takes money to stay in power) to take money from dubious sources because he wouldn't take it from the "established" sources (equally as dubious, just less "legit"), or he was railroaded...

Preacher
12-18-2009, 05:08 PM
The people who start out in politics with real change in mind are simply subjugated...they are no different than victims of the Borg on Star Trek. They are assimilated, and resistance is useless.

If you DON'T assimilate, you're cast out. Look at Jim Trafficant. He was a nut, but he at least retained his principles. He either was forced (It takes money to stay in power) to take money from dubious sources because he wouldn't take it from the "established" sources (equally as dubious, just less "legit"), or he was railroaded...

:chuckle: I am constantly amazed at how much we disagree... and then agree.

GoSlash27
12-18-2009, 06:32 PM
The people who start out in politics with real change in mind are simply subjugated...they are no different than victims of the Borg on Star Trek. They are assimilated, and resistance is useless.

One might think, but the reality is that most people who start out in politics are stooges; people with no aptitude for the real world. Somebody's uncle is the county party chairman and they need a candidate, so they rope in a family member and tell him what to say and how to vote.

It's very rare that the average citizen pulls off the "Mister Smith" routine, and it actually works out pretty well when it happens.

It's apathy that allows this state of affairs.

revefsreleets
12-18-2009, 06:39 PM
One might think, but the reality is that most people who start out in politics are stooges; people with no aptitude for the real world. Somebody's uncle is the county party chairman and they need a candidate, so they rope in a family member and tell him what to say and how to vote.

It's very rare that the average citizen pulls off the "Mister Smith" routine, and it actually works out pretty well when it happens.

It's apathy that allows this state of affairs.

I figured there'd be a contrarian take in you....you didn't fail to disappoint. I'd love to see the source for all this wisdom you are imparting on all of us....or are we to just accept you as the fount of it all? MOST people who start out are stooges? Really?

GoSlash27
12-18-2009, 07:08 PM
I figured there'd be a contrarian take in you....you didn't fail to disappoint. I'd love to see the source for all this wisdom you are imparting on all of us....or are we to just accept you as the fount of it all? MOST people who start out are stooges? Really?
Yeah. Your sarcasm is at a nine, and we need you at about a two. :coffee:
The source of my knowledge in this area is personal experience, being someone who is heavily involved in this stuff myself, doing all the things I'm telling you you need to be doing. I'm on the county central committee, have volunteered and coordinated for 3 campaigns, and have run myself. I would ask you what your experience is to support your assertion, but I can already guess the answer.
But hey... maybe things work a little differently out there in the Commonwealth :noidea:

Point is this: put up or shut up. Ranting on this forum about how screwed up everything is accomplishes nothing. The question is "Yeah, but what are you gonna *do* about it? If your answer is "nothing", then you deserve the government you've got.

revefsreleets
12-20-2009, 02:54 PM
Yeah. Your sarcasm is at a nine, and we need you at about a two. :coffee:
The source of my knowledge in this area is personal experience, being someone who is heavily involved in this stuff myself, doing all the things I'm telling you you need to be doing. I'm on the county central committee, have volunteered and coordinated for 3 campaigns, and have run myself. I would ask you what your experience is to support your assertion, but I can already guess the answer.
But hey... maybe things work a little differently out there in the Commonwealth :noidea:

Point is this: put up or shut up. Ranting on this forum about how screwed up everything is accomplishes nothing. The question is "Yeah, but what are you gonna *do* about it? If your answer is "nothing", then you deserve the government you've got.

Good thing...I'd be very afraid of having YOU in charge of anything more than a bit part in the "county central committee" (which sounds very "red" too me)....

My favorite bit of your nonsense is how YOU (and ostensibly ONLY you) have the solution to the Mideast problem. The most consistently volatile and mystifying problem the World has dealt with for the last 2,000 or so years, but YOU have all the answers.

LOL....delusions of grandeur.

My answer is NOT "do nothing". Your complete bastardization of my sentiments is very indicative of your general tone of self-importance and demagoguery....I again beg you to PLEASE, PLEASE get over yourself...