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mwittman5
12-21-2009, 01:05 PM
when talking about the most clutch QB's, ben doesn't even get mentioned in the top 5 of some people like those ESPN idiots. One dummy on that first take show didn't even put ben on his top 5 current clutch QB's and they had philip rivers on there. What the heck has Rivers won? He's a good QB of course but he hasn't done anything clutch in the playoffs. People are too obsessed with stats like TD's and dont bother looking at the only stat that matters which is Wins and Superbowl wins, let alone the way ben helped win the superbowl :tt03:

Bluedust
12-21-2009, 01:07 PM
when talking about the most clutch QB's, ben doesn't even get mentioned in the top 5 of some people like those ESPN idiots. One dummy on that first take show didn't even put ben on his top 5 current clutch QB's and they had philip rivers on there. What the heck has Rivers won? He's a good QB of course but he hasn't done anything clutch in the playoffs. People are too obsessed with stats like TD's and dont bother looking at the only stat that matters which is Wins and Superbowl wins, let alone the way ben helped win the superbowl :tt03:

I agree, though after the last Superbowl I finally see him getting some recognition.

Steelers24/7
12-21-2009, 01:11 PM
I could really care less what people think of Ben, it seems at this point he won't get the recognition he deserves no matter what. Let them praise the other guys, I'll take the wins and 2 Super Bowls.

mwittman5
12-21-2009, 01:14 PM
I could really care less what people think of Ben, it seems at this point he won't get the recognition he deserves no matter what. Let them praise the other guys, I'll take the wins and 2 Super Bowls.

X2 just thought i'd bring it up :tt02:

CPanther95
12-21-2009, 01:15 PM
Let him get a couple more rings then they won't have a choice.

Kills me that people love to bring up his SB XL performance - which, granted, was dismal - but neglect to bring up the performance in the 3 road playoff games leading up to that game. He had the highest postseason QB Rating that year, better than Brady and Manning - even with the SB XL performance factored in.

supa_fly_steeler
12-21-2009, 01:17 PM
the espn guys are a bunch of retards, there just like us (not retards) standard people nothing special but they just get paid for their dumbass opinions. we dont.

Munnin
12-21-2009, 01:35 PM
"Let him get a couple more rings then they won't have a choice."

That does not seem to have made a difference for Terry Bradshaw.

fansince'76
12-21-2009, 01:38 PM
Disney Channel II (AKA ESPN) = zero credibility

JCPsteelers
12-21-2009, 02:07 PM
It should be noted that skip bayless had big ben number one..


Big Ben gets plenty of respect..

steel9guy
12-21-2009, 02:10 PM
if you don't put Big Ben in the top 3 your an idiot. lol.

SteelMember
12-21-2009, 02:10 PM
Ben doesn't care about respect from the media.

Ben wants wins... and rings.

The only respect he probably places any value on is from his team mates, and other players and coaches in the league.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
12-21-2009, 02:24 PM
"Let him get a couple more rings then they won't have a choice."

That does not seem to have made a difference for Terry Bradshaw.

To be honest, Ben is just head and shoulders better than TB. I think he's proved that by breaking every record TB has in less than 6 years in the league.

SteelMember
12-21-2009, 02:27 PM
Ben doesn't care about respect from the media.

Ben wants wins... and rings.

The only respect he probably places any value on is from his team mates, and other players and coaches in the league.

Oh.

And fans with big boobs. :laughing:

pepsyman1
12-21-2009, 02:34 PM
"Let him get a couple more rings then they won't have a choice."

That does not seem to have made a difference for Terry Bradshaw.

As long as Terry made the HOF like he deserved. (to some very loud Steeler fan cheers) Terry's stats were never what Ben's look like, but in the same fashion Terry knew how to come up big in the biggest of games. BTW...Did ANYONE throw a better deep ball than Terry did? If you look on youtube to some of the highlight clips of Terry, it's astounding how many LONG touchdown passes he threw seemingly effortlessly.

Angus Burgher
12-21-2009, 02:36 PM
To be honest, Ben is just head and shoulders better than TB. I think he's proved that by breaking every record TB has in less than 6 years in the league.

I would tend to agree with you but you do have to consider that the league, and the Steelers themselves, have changed a lot since those days. QBs as a whole didn't throw as much as they do today. And didn't Pittsburgh's Steel Curtain shut out something like 5 teams in a row during one season? You'd never see a defense pull that off today.

fansince'76
12-21-2009, 02:47 PM
Oh.

And fans with big boobs. :laughing:

"Saint Ben the Godsend."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Steelersfan4life0655
12-21-2009, 02:59 PM
i am bothered that he does all these things in such a short amount of time and hardly gets any praise! honestly, i really do understand the whole stat thing for QB's, but i thought ultimately football is about wins and championships? So if we were to go based on wins and rings for current QBs:

Brady
Big Ben
Farve
Manning
anyone else you want in the one ring column

its dumb and hates Peter King more after i read his story today about how tomlins onside thing really overshadowed bens performance yesterday! seriously, i think ben is the only one this year to throw over 500 yards this year and with out an interception and if brees did it and coach peyton did the same thing, brees accomplishment would have overshadowed that!! :doh: so i am sounding :blah::blah::blah: just hates it sometimes that no ones gives props to ben.

BlastFurnace
12-21-2009, 03:28 PM
To be honest, Ben is just head and shoulders better than TB. I think he's proved that by breaking every record TB has in less than 6 years in the league.

Whoa...tap the brakes that Ben is "head and shoulders above Bradshaw". Did you ever see Bradshaw play? If you really did, you wouldn't make that statement. Besides, you simply cannot compare the two QB's. As great as Ben is, you simply cannot say he is better than Bradshaw.

When Ben took over in 2004, he had a much better cast than Terry did in 1970. The team that Terry was drafted into was terrible. You can't compare them...especially their first 6 years in the league.

The 70 vs the 00's rules are too different on defense. Put Ben under the 70's rules and Brad under today's rules and who knows what happens. I guarantee one thing, put Brad under today's passing rules and he would have surpassed 4,000 yards.

They are comparable in that they have:

- Multiple SB wins
- Gutsy QB's with a touch of injury drama
- Big Game, Big Drive QB's
- Maddening INT's at times.

HometownGal
12-21-2009, 03:31 PM
I put Ben at #2 behind Manning and Peytoon is a stat king, but stats don't win games or championships. Talent, hard work, pride in what you do and grit win those games and Ben has all 4 of 'em. There isn't a QB in the league I'd want manning our offensive ship more than Ben Roethlisberger.

CanadianSteel
12-21-2009, 03:42 PM
Yup - not sure Ben and Bradshaw is a good comparison when looking only at stats. Different game when Bradshaw played and he played his best when the big lights were on just like Ben.
For the first half of Terry's career the D could just jam his receivers all day until rule was changed (see Mel Blount). Also leageue was geared much more towards running, and also the hits teery would take from defenders was just sick..... would be penalty after penalty in todays game....

Both very clutch QB's but not sure one is better than the other at this point.... Ben still has time to finish his story....

SteelGhost
12-21-2009, 04:08 PM
To be honest, Ben is just head and shoulders better than TB. I think he's proved that by breaking every record TB has in less than 6 years in the league.

IMHO Ben needs 2 more rings to reach the most important stat of TB, I'm sure he's going to get them, go Ben :tt03:

Munnin
12-21-2009, 04:18 PM
To be honest, Ben is just head and shoulders better than TB. I think he's proved that by breaking every record TB has in less than 6 years in the league.

I am not sure I agree with that since they worked in very different eras. Tommy Madux has some better numbers that TB but who would you pick ? But that is besides the point, the point was the rings don't get automatic respect.

Let consider Coaches, when the top 5 coaches are talked about how often does Chuck Noll make the list?

Preacher
12-21-2009, 04:19 PM
Oh.

And fans with big boobs. :laughing:

:buttkick:

I wander what that guy thought say... oh, about February of last year?

caseydog
12-21-2009, 04:21 PM
I remember in the seventies, the media star was Roger Staubach. Bradshaw was often portrayed as a lucky dumass. Roger was a football God, while they were amazed that Terry could tie his own shoes before taking the field for his four Super Bowl wins (including two against Staubach's Cowboys).

Today, it's Brees and Manning and Rivers and Romo who have the media drooling. Maybe Ben will have to score four Super Bowl wins too, in order to earn respect.

SteelGhost
12-21-2009, 04:27 PM
I remember in the seventies, the media star was Roger Staubach. Bradshaw was often portrayed as a lucky dumass. Roger was a football God, while they were amazed that Terry could tie his own shoes before taking the field for his four Super Bowl wins (including two against Staubach's Cowboys).

Today, it's Brees and Manning and Rivers and Romo who have the media drooling. Maybe Ben will have to score four Super Bowl wins too, in order to earn respect.

Hey Casey, you forgot Marsha and The Drama KIng :chuckle:

MillerMania83
12-21-2009, 04:35 PM
when talking about the most clutch QB's, ben doesn't even get mentioned in the top 5 of some people like those ESPN idiots. One dummy on that first take show didn't even put ben on his top 5 current clutch QB's and they had philip rivers on there. What the heck has Rivers won? He's a good QB of course but he hasn't done anything clutch in the playoffs. People are too obsessed with stats like TD's and dont bother looking at the only stat that matters which is Wins and Superbowl wins, let alone the way ben helped win the superbowl :tt03:

I watched the same show this morning, that guy (name is coming to me right now) is a CLOWN...And believe they were asked to list their top 5 QB's they would want on their team with 2 mins to go and behind....And the guy didn't even have Ben in his top 5, GIVE ME A BREAK, as right now, other than maybe Peyton, this is NO QB better than Ben in that situation, and his #'s prove, it's in black and white....The guy had Donovan McNabb and I believe Drew Brees and Rivers as 3 of his 5, WOW, PLEASE, that's is just ridiculous...McNabb, that is one of his big knocks, that he hasn't brought his team back in the 2 mins in years (I believe is happened once this year), they either blow teams out or lose the close ones....Brees is a stud, but not like Ben is with the game on the line IMO, and Rivers, same things, stud QB's, but just not like #7 with the game on the line and a football field to go with under 2 mins remaining and the game on the line....The dude on ESPN should be fired after that top 5 he put up there....But the guy he was "debating" had Ben #1 on his list he had have on his team in that situation, at least that guy knows the facts/numbers anyway.

Gnutella
12-21-2009, 04:45 PM
Drew Brees has a career record of 2-18 when throwing the ball 40+ times in a game (Roethlisberger's career record is now 6-5 in such situations), and he also has a losing career record when his teams trail at any point in the fourth quarter. And he's "clutch"? Donovan McNabb is "clutch"? Among all the top-tier QBs, McNabb is the worst I've seen at executing a two-minute drill.

wootawnee
12-21-2009, 05:06 PM
Dudes and Dudettes.......Here's the skinny on the Ben gets no respect thing.......

1. First thing is that you got to realize that these writers are just ordinary dudes..... Like any yae-yo you run into in your daily routine....... They are by far not profits or soothsayers........They do see the world and events unconnected from their societies and belirefs.....Like it would be from the heavens the real way it is, without personal preferences playing into opinions of judgement of performance......


2. Here is the MAIN reason people do not respect Ben.....Or any other individual efforts......
They are not Steeler fans........
Their team or city where they came from used to get squashed by the old Steelers and deep down, in their sub-conscious, hate the Steelers for crushing their home teams when they were younger......

Trust me on this one.........

There are not alot of network writers from the burgh.......That's it.......


So as fellow Steeler fans ya have to suck it up and take it until it is all said and done and your favorite player puts on that yellow jacket.........

Pittsburgh people are tough..........And I know you all don't need all the suckin up that the team with a star on their helmet or a stupid guy hiking a football need..........When do you get any praise in your life for digging a ditch or whatever you do?........You don't ,and that is what makes you one of the greatest down to earth bunch of folks out there..........

KitsapSteve
12-21-2009, 05:22 PM
Does anyone seriously take what the jokers on any of the Post games or even pre game shows really think, I dont,
I take JA's like Deion and the Micheals, Keith O with a grain of JTFU, I look at it as those who can either still are playing or are coaching, Those who cant find a BS job as a Football Analyst, Ohhh Look its Matt Millan, The only exceptions to me are the Fox and CBS Pre-Show teams and maybe Mariuci.
The in Game announcers are so freakin Biases and they have no clue of the game, Ohh Look Troy Akiman did you lose a Contact again. His comments of be there ridiculious.

CPanther95
12-21-2009, 05:49 PM
I would tend to agree with you but you do have to consider that the league, and the Steelers themselves, have changed a lot since those days. QBs as a whole didn't throw as much as they do today. And didn't Pittsburgh's Steel Curtain shut out something like 5 teams in a row during one season? You'd never see a defense pull that off today.

That's because they overhauled the rules to insure that it would never happen again.

BTW - Bradshaw adapted quite well to the new rules.

Preacher
12-21-2009, 06:12 PM
That's because they overhauled the rules to insure that it would never happen again.

BTW - Bradshaw adapted quite well to the new rules.

Absolutely true.

With all the changes to make this game an offensive-minded game, what our defense did last year was unbelievable.

I also wonder however, how Ben, with his size, strength, and ability to move around in the pocket would have handled the game back then. Even with mugging the receivers, if you buy enough time, they will come open.

CPanther95
12-21-2009, 06:19 PM
I also wonder however, how Ben, with his size, strength, and ability to move around in the pocket would have handled the game back then. Even with mugging the receivers, if you buy enough time, they will come open.

Hard to say - but I know I'd love to see Hines Ward, James Harrison and Ryan Clark playing under the old rules.

wootawnee
12-22-2009, 12:20 AM
Does anyone seriously take what the jokers on any of the Post games or even pre game shows really think, I dont,
I take JA's like Deion and the Micheals, Keith O with a grain of JTFU, I look at it as those who can either still are playing or are coaching, Those who cant find a BS job as a Football Analyst, Ohhh Look its Matt Millan, The only exceptions to me are the Fox and CBS Pre-Show teams and maybe Mariuci.
The in Game announcers are so freakin Biases and they have no clue of the game, Ohh Look Troy Akiman did you lose a Contact again. His comments of be there ridiculious.

Dude , Dion is really good on nfl network, and Matt Millan won as many superbowls as Jack Lambert......He knows what he is talking about buddy.......

Tankus_Maximus
12-22-2009, 09:56 AM
It's common practice for Ben not to get any love from the media. It's not accurate, it's totally biased (stemming from what agenda, I'm not certain), but this seems to be the stigma of any great Steeler QB.

While Ben might get "out-shined" by Peyton and his Playstation/X-Box-like stats, Ben's got more hardware than Peyton, and while Marsha Brady has more hardware than Ben, Ben's durability and ability to elude defenders gives him an edge in the intangible's department. But once Ben's career is done and finished, the rest of the pundits will have no choice but to rank Ben alongside the other two more "statistics-sexy" QB's of his generation.

solardave
12-22-2009, 11:41 AM
if you don't put Big Ben in the top 3 your an idiot. lol.

What if I put him in the top 2? Am I an idiot?:chuckle:

CPanther95
12-22-2009, 11:48 AM
What if I put him in the top 2? Am I an idiot?:chuckle:

You asking that question answers your own question. :chuckle:

plenewken
12-22-2009, 02:57 PM
Ben won't get the respect he deserves if he continues to get sacked day in and day out. He's been sacked 43 times this season (and counting). Only 2 QBs have been sacked more than him. As a comparison, Manning has been sacked 10 times, Brady 16 and Brees 19. Huge difference
Ben is also the worst QB this season in yds lost on sacks, with 308 yds.

This weighs heavily against him.

fansince'76
12-22-2009, 03:51 PM
Ben won't get the respect he deserves if he continues to get sacked day in and day out. He's been sacked 43 times this season (and counting). Only 2 QBs have been sacked more than him. As a comparison, Manning has been sacked 10 times, Brady 16 and Brees 19. Huge difference
Ben is also the worst QB this season in yds lost on sacks, with 308 yds.

This weighs heavily against him.

Didn't hurt Elway, and he was sacked a NFL-record 516 times in his career. Ben's also made a number of huge plays by extending plays and holding the ball long after one of the other QBs you mentioned would have throw it away. That's the way he plays, he's not changing, and I couldn't care less how Disney Channel II or the other mediots view him.

plenewken
12-22-2009, 04:34 PM
Didn't hurt Elway, and he was sacked a NFL-record 516 times in his career. Ben's also made a number of huge plays by extending plays and holding the ball long after one of the other QBs you mentioned would have throw it away. That's the way he plays, he's not changing, and I couldn't care less how Disney Channel II or the other mediots view him.

The OP didn't ask about your opinion on Ben or mine, he asked why Ben doesn't get all the credit he deserves and I think it's a valid question.
I still believe his high number of sacks don't help his rating as a QB. At the end of the day, his sacks translate into lost ground and loss of downs. Considering our poor 3rd down conversion ratio, I can only recognize than the less sacks, the better.
Maybe the next Steelers OC will ask him to look into this issue, even if you don't think it's a problem? Curiously, he wasn't sacked as much when Whiz was the OC, so I don't think it's Ben's style as much as the current OC's strategy.

fansince'76
12-22-2009, 04:56 PM
Curiously, he wasn't sacked as much when Whiz was the OC, so I don't think it's Ben's style as much as the current OC's strategy.

Maybe that's because Ben threw half as often in the 3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust "Cowherball" scheme he railed against under the previous OC? However, to be fair, until Ben came along, Cowher didn't have much to work with under center so we had to play that way out of necessity. Now that we have a franchise QB, why not use him?

As far as Ben not getting respect from the media is concerned, I think it's due more to the fact that he's not particularly photogenic/GQ worthy (Brady) nor does he have a family pedigree (Manning). Those two are the true "fairhaired boys" of the NFL who get all the pub - I don't think Brees gets the attention he deserves either and it's due mainly to the same reasons. Let's face it, ESPN has been much more about the "E" than the "S" in its call letters for quite a few years now.

Bettisberger
12-22-2009, 05:11 PM
As far as his SB XL performance - I wouldn't call it dismal. Yeah, he didn't do so great passing the ball, but made a few huge key plays for us ie. the 3rd and 23 pass to Ward and his diving TD rush as well as his block on the trick play. A QB is more than just a passer.

X-Terminator
12-22-2009, 05:13 PM
Curiously, he wasn't sacked as much when Whiz was the OC, so I don't think it's Ben's style as much as the current OC's strategy.

Ben was sacked 46 times in 2006, Whisenhunt's final season as OC. He also threw 469 times that season, the first time he surpassed the 300 attempt mark in his career. Also interesting is that he was sacked 30 times in just 295 attempts in 2004, which is a sack every 9.9 pass attempts. That means he was on pace to be sacked 48 times had he passed as much that season that he did in 2006. And remember, that was with a much better OL than the Steelers have now. So he was sacked every bit as much under Whisenhunt, and Mularkey in 2004, that he has been under Arians.

Davison_K
12-22-2009, 05:22 PM
"Let him get a couple more rings then they won't have a choice."

That does not seem to have made a difference for Terry Bradshaw.

I was actually going to ask if it did. I wasn't even born when Terry won 4. I didn't know how much recognition he received and was going to ask if he received a lot or whether he was overshadowed by other QBs of the era as well.

steel striker
12-22-2009, 05:36 PM
Well what else is new and, many of us here having been saying these things for a long time. Sure at times Ben takes too mnay sacks but, look at how many times he extends plays that turn into game deciding plays. The good by far out weighs the bad and, I'll say this a normal pocket passing QB would not stay alive with are o-line play. Who cares what the media thinks most of them would not know what a real football player is al about. Replay the SB43 and, you will see how many times Ben made plays. Even better what the replay tonight vs the packers you will see what most of us here have been saying all along #7 is one hell of a football player.

fansince'76
12-22-2009, 05:36 PM
I was actually going to ask if it did. I wasn't even born when Terry won 4. I didn't know how much recognition he received and was going to ask if he received a lot or whether he was overshadowed by other QBs of the era as well.

Bradshaw made fewer Pro Bowl than SB appearances in his career. That should tell you something. Bradshaw began to garner the respect he deserved only after he retired, IMO.

markymarc
12-23-2009, 10:55 AM
Who really cares what the media thinks about Ben. I guarantee it won't stop Ben being "clutch" until he retires from the NFL.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
12-25-2009, 12:11 PM
Whoa...tap the brakes that Ben is "head and shoulders above Bradshaw". Did you ever see Bradshaw play? If you really did, you wouldn't make that statement. Besides, you simply cannot compare the two QB's. As great as Ben is, you simply cannot say he is better than Bradshaw.

When Ben took over in 2004, he had a much better cast than Terry did in 1970. The team that Terry was drafted into was terrible. You can't compare them...especially their first 6 years in the league.

The 70 vs the 00's rules are too different on defense. Put Ben under the 70's rules and Brad under today's rules and who knows what happens. I guarantee one thing, put Brad under today's passing rules and he would have surpassed 4,000 yards.

They are comparable in that they have:

- Multiple SB wins
- Gutsy QB's with a touch of injury drama
- Big Game, Big Drive QB's
- Maddening INT's at times.

Sorry, but Bradshaw had a much better supporting cast throughout his heyday. Swann, Stallworth, Harris, Webster, and so on. And that's before you even mention the defense. I would also add that Bradshaw had a TD to INT ratio of about 1 to 1. For the most part, Ben doesn't just throw it up and hope for the best. Most of the time, that's just what Bradshaw did. He never had a single season QB rating of over 88.0! Was he clutch in big games? Yes. Is he one of only two QB's to ever win 4 SBs? Yes. But if you talk about raw ability and talent, he can't hold a candle to Ben. Bradshaw reminds me a lot of Favre. Favre is in no way one of THE BEST ever. It's a lot more of quantity than quality.

Gnutella
12-25-2009, 12:17 PM
Didn't hurt Elway, and he was sacked a NFL-record 516 times in his career.

That can only mean one thing: John Elway didn't know how to read defenses! :doh: