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solardave
12-23-2009, 05:11 AM
I've been thinking about this since the D started coming apart.
What if tomlin is over riding Lebeau's calls and that's what's not working?It sure hasn't looked much like his D style lately.

We all are wondering why Ziggy isn't playing much.
What if Tomlin is leaning toward trying the 4-3 and he doesn't want to confuse Ziggy with the 3-4?
If this is the case does Lebeau retire? (I sure hope not)
Come draft time next year if they start off drafting a D lineman we'll know.
We need help everywhere but secondary IMHO is where we should start.
Next is a cover safety and then O line and D line.

The problem is we're old on the D line.
Why am I bringing this up now? Time on my hands I guess but I'd also like to hear what everyone else is thinking.

Rick5895
12-23-2009, 05:33 AM
Our D is getting older, come draft time I would like to see them take the best available defensive player from the following positions S DL or LB.
As for Hood, it takes time for rookies to lay in Lebeau's system. I don't think this is an indication of whether we are going 4-3 or staying 3-4.

Preacher
12-23-2009, 05:43 AM
Honestly,

that doesn't make much sense at all.

Cowher used to override LeBeau often. Matter of fact, if you look closely, the setups have become more exotic since Tomlin has become coach.

And um, Ziggy is playing quite a bit. he is sharing time, like a rookie in our defense should.

This is looking EXACTLY like LeBeau's defense. I am amazed how much people forget 2006 and the second half of 2007.

supa_fly_steeler
12-23-2009, 07:41 AM
If Tomlin forces Lebau to retire i will have to murder tomlin. Lebeau is God of all co-ordinators, why would tomlin make him leave, id rather learn from lebeau imo...

Vincent
12-23-2009, 08:14 AM
This is looking EXACTLY like LeBeau's defense. I am amazed how much people forget 2006 and the second half of 2007.

Its a different defense when key cogs are out. Also, IMHO, the league seems to be "on to" the LeBeau defense more than in the past.. There are common elements to the 4Q meltdowns ranging back to the 4Q of SBXIII. That Fitz TD down the middle was designed to take advantage of our scheme. It was a brilliant play that I think folks have learned from.

In these meltdowns it seems like teams are sandbagging us for three quarters then pouncing. GB came out and went after us from the beginning.

If Tomlin forces Lebau to retire i will have to murder tomlin.

Are you sure?

If Tomlin forces Lebau to retire i will have to murder tomlin. Lebeau is God of all co-ordinators, why would tomlin make him leave, id rather learn from lebeau imo...

The human ego is a fragile thing. Especially the male ego. As one matures, the ego has less bearing on decisions.

GoSlash27
12-23-2009, 08:31 AM
4-3 defenses are hard to build and maintain. There's only so many top-flight linemen to go around and they're very expensive.

3-4s are a lot more flexible and less prone to the injury bug. You can use college 4-3 guys who aren't quite beefy enough for the pros and plug 'em in.

I don't know what Tomlin's thoughts are, but if it were up to me I'd keep the 3-4.

solardave
12-23-2009, 09:30 AM
4-3 defenses are hard to build and maintain. There's only so many top-flight linemen to go around and they're very expensive.

3-4s are a lot more flexible and less prone to the injury bug. You can use college 4-3 guys who aren't quite beefy enough for the pros and plug 'em in.

I don't know what Tomlin's thoughts are, but if it were up to me I'd keep the 3-4.

I agree. i'll take Lebeau and the 3-4 all day. unless of course they can find 4 more like Mean Joe,LC,Mad Dog and Fats Holmes. We'll never see 4 like that again in this lifetime.

Dino 6 Rings
12-23-2009, 10:04 AM
Dick's defense is a little more complicated than a basic 3-4 defense. It involves a lot of zone blitzes, false looks and coverage changes at the line of scrimmage. Watch the defense he used in the Colts playoff game (the tackle game) and notice how we hold and hold until Manning makes his reads then we bailed out of false blitzes and changed coverage right before the snap. That kind of complicated defense needs a lot of talented guys to run and the failure of one player, on any play can lead to a td for the other team.

Carter blows a tackle, TD, Burnett blows a coverage, TD, the wrong guy blitzes against Oakland, TD. There is no room for failure in a Lebeau defense on any play. Its way more involved than just a Tampa 2 or Cover 3, that basically keep everything in front of you, but the problem with Dick's defense is, when a mistake does happen, it gives up huge plays. Its a risk reward style defense and right now, with some of the missing talent, I point to McFadden, Troy, Smith and even Foote, as guys not on the defense this season, the guys replacing them are making mistakes and other guys are trying to hard to cover for them and are blowing their own assignments and its killing us.

GoSlash27
12-23-2009, 10:12 AM
Dino,
I agree with all of it. Most people are underestimating the impact of losing Smith. Granted, Willie Gay looks particularly awful (especially his tackling), but the reason he's so exposed is because stunts and blitzes are failing to bring enough pressure.
When the whole thing's clicking, opposing quarterbacks don't have time to pick on the secondary.
But it's not clicking for all the reasons you mentioned.

steelcity1974
12-23-2009, 10:28 AM
Its a risk reward style defense and right now, with some of the missing talent, I point to McFadden, Troy, Smith and even Foote, as guys not on the defense this season, the guys replacing them are making mistakes and other guys are trying to hard to cover for them and are blowing their own assignments and its killing us.

Exactly! So assuming Troy and Smith come back in 2010 healthy, Timmons improves AND gets healthy (remember he's not playing 100%), and we replace Gay our D will be just fine. Now, we may lose Casey to free agency, so we would need big time development from Hood, and would need Keissl and Smith to stay healthy. And due to old bones we need to supplement our core D with some young talent. Fox comes to mind for Farrior. Need to get D line and secondary depth via draft and free agency.

GoSlash27
12-23-2009, 10:43 AM
Exactly! So assuming Troy and Smith come back in 2010 healthy, Timmons improves AND gets healthy (remember he's not playing 100%), and we replace Gay our D will be just fine. Now, we may lose Casey to free agency, so we would need big time development from Hood, and would need Keissl and Smith to stay healthy. And due to old bones we need to supplement our core D with some young talent. Fox comes to mind for Farrior. Need to get D line and secondary depth via draft and free agency.

Lord, I hope not! Not dissin' on Ziggy, but Big Snack isn't the sort of guy you just replace, especially not with a relative lightweight. He's got a full 25 pounds on Ziggy. Heck, he's got at least that much on every defensive player we've got, including his backup. Plus, he's pretty darn fast for such a big guy.

Dino 6 Rings
12-23-2009, 10:47 AM
Its going to be tough as hell to keep Big Snack, especially with so many other teams switching or at least using a 3-4 more these days. He's going to command a huge pay day, and I don't think we'll be putting our money on the table. I think they may go for Clark one more time, but Hampton, well, I wouldn't buy his Jersey today if you don't already have it.

I like Fox, he's # 57 right? He makes plays for us. He may still be a little Raw and might not be getting the system yet, but he's got a lot of talent and strength and speed. He's one of the younger guys I'm most impressed with this season just from a developmental stand point. (Minus Wallace of coarse because that kid is effing amazing)

GoSlash27
12-23-2009, 10:59 AM
^ Again, agreed. I'm very impressed with Keyaron.

Mr. Goosemahn
12-23-2009, 11:37 AM
Hood is not a nose tackle, he's a defensive end for us. If we lose Hampton, Chris Hoke is the starter until we find a replacement.

For the future defense (and great one), we need the following:

1. CB
2. FS
3. NT
4. Depth at all positions.

I'm pretty sure we get something this upcoming draft. There is a lot of talent and depth at the safety position. If we could land any of the following, we have a good safety to play alongside Polamalu.

1. Eric Berry
2. Taylor Mays
3. Earl Thomas
4. Reshad Jones
5. Nate Allen
6. Morgan Burnett

Not sure who has and hasn't declared, but those guys should be available.

For CB, we might have to wait some more. Lewis and Burnett have yet to be tested, and this upcoming draft has a few good corners.

1. Joe Haden
2. Patrick Robinson
3. Perrish Cox
4. Donovan Warren

For nose tackle, we could sign someone or draft someone, but it's the least pressing need considering the state in which the secondary is in.

Guys who we can draft early who'd work:

1. NT Terrence Cody
2. NT Dan Williams

Judging by where we stand right now, near the middle of the draft, I think we could do something like this:

1. NT Terrence Cody - Alabama - I'm expecting to have Berry, Mays, and Haden gone at this point. Any other safety or corner is too big a reach, and this is still a need.
2. FS Reshad Jones - Georgia - Big time hitter with good physical abilities and instincts. Fills need and has great talent.
3. CB/S - Ras-I Dowling - Has position versatility and Tomlin loves that. Also has great size for a corner at 6'2 and 200 lbs.

Busforever
12-23-2009, 11:55 AM
Hampton didn't make the things right to stay since Tomlin took command. He was overweight and out of shape the first off season, and he didn't react as he understood he was doing things the wrong way.

But I noticed that he was one of the players who promptly defended Tomlin when the losing streak started. I think his mind is loyal to the team and the head coach, but not the body. It will be interesting to see what the Steelers will do.

In my opinion I think they will let Casey go. Maybe not for personal reasons, but because they need a few changes to shake up a little bit the defense, and Casey's contract is over, so that's the easiest way. This season sounds like a warning: we can't count forever with our veteran players.

Dino 6 Rings
12-23-2009, 11:56 AM
Someone has been doing his homework LOL

Great Post Goosemahn.

Stlrs4Life
12-23-2009, 12:02 PM
I've been thinking about this since the D started coming apart.
What if tomlin is over riding Lebeau's calls and that's what's not working?It sure hasn't looked much like his D style lately.

We all are wondering why Ziggy isn't playing much.
What if Tomlin is leaning toward trying the 4-3 and he doesn't want to confuse Ziggy with the 3-4?
If this is the case does Lebeau retire? (I sure hope not)
Come draft time next year if they start off drafting a D lineman we'll know.
We need help everywhere but secondary IMHO is where we should start.
Next is a cover safety and then O line and D line.

The problem is we're old on the D line.
Why am I bringing this up now? Time on my hands I guess but I'd also like to hear what everyone else is thinking.


Lebeau isn't going anywhere:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09354/1022096-87.stm

Fire Haley
12-23-2009, 12:09 PM
LeBeau says he's not leaving....now. To keep the spirits up on the D.

It's a long off-season.

steeltheone
12-23-2009, 12:27 PM
Dick's defense is a little more complicated than a basic 3-4 defense. It involves a lot of zone blitzes, false looks and coverage changes at the line of scrimmage. Watch the defense he used in the Colts playoff game (the tackle game) and notice how we hold and hold until Manning makes his reads then we bailed out of false blitzes and changed coverage right before the snap. That kind of complicated defense needs a lot of talented guys to run and the failure of one player, on any play can lead to a td for the other team.

Carter blows a tackle, TD, Burnett blows a coverage, TD, the wrong guy blitzes against Oakland, TD. There is no room for failure in a Lebeau defense on any play. Its way more involved than just a Tampa 2 or Cover 3, that basically keep everything in front of you, but the problem with Dick's defense is, when a mistake does happen, it gives up huge plays. Its a risk reward style defense and right now, with some of the missing talent, I point to McFadden, Troy, Smith and even Foote, as guys not on the defense this season, the guys replacing them are making mistakes and other guys are trying to hard to cover for them and are blowing their own assignments and its killing us. The blown coverages in some of those games were Farriors fauit. Smith is 34. He needs replaced. We are still number 1 rush without him.

Indo
12-23-2009, 12:34 PM
My 2 cents----

The 3-4 is absolutely dependent on a BEAST of a NT. He's gotta be BIG so that he takes up 2 blockers (which allows the LB to clean up), and he's gotta be quick. Big don't mean nuthin' if Jabba the Hut is just sitting there

I would love to see the Steelers grab Cody (from Alabama). He fits both of those criteria. But I just don't see him lasting that far into the draft...

Secondly,

I agree. i'll take Lebeau and the 3-4 all day. unless of course they can find 4 more like Mean Joe,LC,Mad Dog and Fats Holmes. We'll never see 4 like that again in this lifetime.


I don't think the likes of the Steel Curtain will EVER be seen again in the history of the Game. The stars/planets were just aligned properly for that defense----Add to it the LBs and the D-backs
It won't ever happen again.
Which is one of the reasons we are all Blessed to be Steelers fans...

markymarc
12-23-2009, 01:38 PM
I truly hope in free agency and the 2010 draft the Steelers focus mainly on defense. We need to get younger and build up our depth at the positions of DE, LB, S and CB. I just hope we are more prepared next season in case we lose a player like Troy or Aaron once again.

Psyychoward86
12-23-2009, 06:10 PM
Our d-line coach, if i recall correctly, also said he's probably retiring within a couple years as well

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-23-2009, 06:38 PM
Too many players on the team that fit a 3-4. Like Harrison and Woodley....neither is really DE material, nor are they OLB's in a 4-3. I think Hampton gets tagged while they hopefully draft a NT of the future. Hampton might not be happy with it, but he was one of the only guys the last 2 games that really showed fire on the D line.

did you see his tackle in the backfield in the 4th quarter last game??? That and Hamp was really pissed when the play later Ryan Grant ran by Carter for the TD. Hampton also waged an epic war with Alex Mack the week earlier, which shows his fire and the bright future for Mack. I dont think they let Hampton walk that easily and keep the 3-4.

Psyychoward86
12-23-2009, 06:43 PM
Lord, I hope not! Not dissin' on Ziggy, but Big Snack isn't the sort of guy you just replace, especially not with a relative lightweight. He's got a full 25 pounds on Ziggy. Heck, he's got at least that much on every defensive player we've got, including his backup. Plus, he's pretty darn fast for such a big guy.

woooooooooowww


how many times do we have to remind everybody that Ziggy is playing DE for us, and that's what he'll always play

Rick5895
12-23-2009, 09:09 PM
A lot a people on here are saying we need CB's, I disagree, we just drafted 2 this past draft, and I think they will be good players. I am willing to forgive Ike for a down season and Gay is young, although he is not doing anything this season, there must be a reason the braintrust let Mcfad go. Safety is our #1 need along with DT/NT followed by ILB. We have 4 young CB's can move Deshea to safety for a year if ned be. I am inteigued by Mays of SC. His coverage is weak this year, but he has speed and can hit. I love Cody from bama, he would be a nice fit. If we could get both I would be estatic!!

steeltheone
12-23-2009, 10:48 PM
Where is the pass rush?

solardave
12-24-2009, 10:59 AM
Too many players on the team that fit a 3-4. Like Harrison and Woodley....neither is really DE material, nor are they OLB's in a 4-3. I think Hampton gets tagged while they hopefully draft a NT of the future. Hampton might not be happy with it, but he was one of the only guys the last 2 games that really showed fire on the D line.

did you see his tackle in the backfield in the 4th quarter last game??? That and Hamp was really pissed when the play later Ryan Grant ran by Carter for the TD. Hampton also waged an epic war with Alex Mack the week earlier, which shows his fire and the bright future for Mack. I dont think they let Hampton walk that easily and keep the 3-4.

I hope so too. I never said the 4-3 would make sense. If fact I don't. But neither does not playing Ziggy more. I know Lebeau's D is tough to learn but we're losing anyway. Get him in there and get his feet wet. I must admit we saw a good bit of him last week.

GoSlash27
12-24-2009, 11:19 AM
Psyycho,
how many times do we have to remind everybody that Ziggy is playing DE for us, and that's what he'll always play
he's got at least that much on every defensive player we've got, including his backup.
I was trying to be unobtrusive with the reminder. :wink02:

Vincent
12-24-2009, 03:24 PM
Its going to be tough as hell to keep Big Snack, especially with so many other teams switching or at least using a 3-4 more these days.

Franchise his @$$. Some team will cough up the picks. Why lose him without comp? If we're willing to spend $7M year over year on Starks, why not Snack?